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 Happyjew wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
So a model only has the Stealth/Shrouded special rule when determining if the unit has a cover save? Interesting logic.

When would you calculate if it has Stealth/Shrouded if you are not at the point of determining if the unit has a cover save?

Well the one the that comes to mind is the one Necron guy who has Counter Tactics, allowing you to remove Stealth from an enemy unit.

No the distance between the units determine whether or not the unit gets stealth or shrouded. Not where the shot is considered to be coming from.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
So a model only has the Stealth/Shrouded special rule when determining if the unit has a cover save? Interesting logic.

When would you calculate if it has Stealth/Shrouded if you are not at the point of determining if the unit has a cover save?

It truly comes down to the Unit vs Model question.

The 36" rule obviously refers to the distance from the shooting unit. Meaning that all of the models in a unit would have to be more than 36" away. No conflict there.

When making the references to other distances, there is no reference made to the shooting unit. If it's not written that you use the UNIT to determine distances, you have to use the standard rules for shooting, where distance, range and cover fall on the shooting model.

One could infer that they intended for it to be applied to Unit to Unit distance throughout. However it is not written that way.

So lets assume for a moment we have a group of Tankbusta Boyz and a Tactical Squad.

One Boy is 11" away from the Tac Squad.
Some are 13" away, some 15" away, etc, with a few who are 24" away.

The Tac Squad is in the open. Night Fighting rules are in affect. What cover save (if any) does the Tac squad get?

None - distance is measured from unit to unit.

rigeld2 wrote:
None - distance is measured from unit to unit.

Let me change it slightly. Same situation except with a Nob who is 15" away and rolls a 6 To Hit.

Part of the same Boyz squad?
Still none. Distance is measured unit to unit.

 Happyjew wrote:
So lets assume for a moment we have a group of Tankbusta Boyz and a Tactical Squad.

One Boy is 11" away from the Tac Squad.
Some are 13" away, some 15" away, etc, with a few who are 24" away.

The Tac Squad is in the open. Night Fighting rules are in affect. What cover save (if any) does the Tac squad get?

It works out just as normal shooting into cover, since stealth/shroud grant cover (as well as improve it). The unit of Space marines would receive no cover from the boy 11" away, 6+ cover from the others and 5+ from the orks that are more than 24" away ( if they have range, tankbustas wouldn't but we'll assume that they do for this point of reason)

It works out just as if the unit weren't in night fight, but behind diferent forms of cover from diferent firing models. It would be possible for a unit to gain no cover from a model that had a clear line of sight, a 5+ because they were behind trees from some of the shooting models, and a 4+ because they were behind a ruin from the remaining firing models.

Can we all agree that the Rules for Night Fight only specificaly reference(in writting) Unit to Unit distance for the 36" distance?

I think that from a RAW perspective DeathReaper is right so I voted for the 5+ save.

BUT

I believe that the RAI would give the extra save. Nightfighting, as I understand it, is to simulate the fact that on a dark battlefield it is harder to see and therefore hit your intended target.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
If the Stealth and Shrouded modifiers apply, but if the shot is coming from 3 inches away, then the distance between the firing unit (Where the shot is coming from) and the target unit is only 3 inches, which is not enough to grant Stealth or Shrouded.

No the distance between the units determine whether or not the unit gets stealth or shrouded. Not where the shot is considered to be coming from

As I have shown the firing unit and where the shots came from are equated.

This was wrong the first time you said it, and it's still wrong now.
The rule shows they do not equate. Not once have you shown they do, only stated an opinion that they should.

Lets go over the rule one more time, and hopefully you'll stop this falsehood.

BRB p34 Barrage wrote:...always assume the shot is coming from the centre of the blast marker, instead of from the firing model...

We have shot and a firing model. Two seperate entities. Shots normally come from firing models (but not always, as the rule above shows).
Shots are not firing models. They usually come from firig models. Seperate entities.
Now the shot comes from the blast marker instead of the firing model. The shot, has moved, the firing model hasn't. The rule still mentions the firing model, and hasn't changed it, so we know the firing model is still indeed the firing model (just the shot no longer comes from it).
At no point are we told the firing model is no longer the firing model.
At no point are we told the blast marker is now the firing model.
At no point does any rule anywhere say that shots can only come from firing models (the barrage rule supports this).
They do not equate. No rule says they equate. The barrage rule shows that shot and firing model are seperate (thats the oppersite of equating).

 DeathReaper wrote:
Anything that effects the cover save is governed by the Barrage Rules on P. 34.

"To determine weather a unit wounded by a barrage weapon is allowed a cover save, and when determining wound allocation, always assume the shot is coming from the center or the blast marker, instead of the firing model..." (34)

After skimming through most of this thread I believe the quote above is the crux of issue. Now I'm not sure if this has been said before, but I interpret the line above to refer to determining cover from intervening terrain only as that would be the best benefit of determining cover from the center of the blast marker instead of the firing model. This line does not change the fact that the target must be within range of the firing model to target it to try and fire, nor does it change the distance that the barrage was fired. Ergo the Night Fighting rules for Stealth and Shrouded would still come into play granting the unit fired upon appropiate increases to any cover save they may get from intervening terrain between them and the center of the blast marker (or in the OP scenario the KFF).

Above is how I believe the rules were intended to interact with each other.

My personal solution to this conundrum would be to fire a barrage weapon with the "Ignores Cover" special rule and just forget about it until Night Fighting is over.

BayneMor

 DeathReaper wrote:
My examples ignore nothing.

Stealth/Shrouded are cover saves, or improve existing ones. They are assessed when it is time to allocate wounds and take saves. not before.

Therefore they are not "applied in Step 2 of the shooting sequence" they apply in step 5, as that is where you apply cover saves.

They are not "cover saves". They are Special Rules... as laid out on page 32. They improve cover saves. The unit gains that Special Rule through the night fighting when the target is declared and range is determined.

Can anyone quote from the rule book where it says that Stealth/Shroud are determined by the distance from the shooting unit to the firing unit?

I can't find that wording anywhere.

 grendel083 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
If the Stealth and Shrouded modifiers apply, but if the shot is coming from 3 inches away, then the distance between the firing unit (Where the shot is coming from) and the target unit is only 3 inches, which is not enough to grant Stealth or Shrouded.

No the distance between the units determine whether or not the unit gets stealth or shrouded. Not where the shot is considered to be coming from

As I have shown the firing unit and where the shots came from are equated.

This was wrong the first time you said it, and it's still wrong now.

Only by your assertation, but the rules agree with my statement.

Fragile wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
My examples ignore nothing.

Stealth/Shrouded are cover saves, or improve existing ones. They are assessed when it is time to allocate wounds and take saves. not before.

Therefore they are not "applied in Step 2 of the shooting sequence" they apply in step 5, as that is where you apply cover saves.

They are not "cover saves". They are Special Rules... as laid out on page 32. They improve cover saves. The unit gains that Special Rule through the night fighting when the target is declared and range is determined.

Yet they are cover saves. it says so in the Stealth/Shrouded rules.

Shrouded says "...Note that this means a model with the Shrouded special rule always has a cover save of at least 5+, even if it's in the open." P. 41

Stealth says "...Note that this means that a model with the Stealth special rule always has a cover save of at least 6+, even if it is in the open." P. 42

Premise 1: Shots come from firing models (That are in a unit) (Do we agree on Premise 1?)
Premise 2: The cover save is granted, or not depending on where the shot is coming from. (Do we agree on Premise #2?)
Premise 3: Stealth and Shrouded affect the cover save of the target unit. (Do we agree on Premise 3?)

The rules actually state "always assume the shot is coming from the center or the blast marker, instead of the firing model..." (34)

Therefore where the shot is coming from = the firing model.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
As I have shown the firing unit and where the shots came from are equated.

This was wrong the first time you said it, and it's still wrong now.

Only by your assertation, but the rules agree with my statement.

I've shown the rules don't agree with you. They do not equate.
You haven't shown they do, just keep repeating that they do without actually backing it up with any rules.
Please prove it (with rules), or stop saying they equate.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Premise 1: Shots come from firing models (That are in a unit) (Do we agree on Premise 1?)
Premise 2: The cover save is granted, or not depending on where the shot is coming from. (Do we agree on Premise #2?)
Premise 3: Stealth and Shrouded affect the cover save of the target unit. (Do we agree on Premise 3?).

Premise 1& 2 are flawed.

Premise 1: shots normally come from firing models. No rule says this is the only place they come from, barrage rules prove this.
Premise 2: Cover saves can be granted depending on where the shot comes from. Other things can grant cover saves without the location of the shot being relevant. KFF is one example, stealth another.
Premise 3: is correct. They grant cover saves, they are not cover saves themselves.

Therefore where the shot is coming from = the firing model.

False.
The firing model is still the firing model. Only the shot has changed. No rule changes the firing model. No rule makes the blast the firing model..

Here is where the rules equate the two:

"all of the models in the unit fire at the same time..." (13)
Models fire shots.

"The models that make up your Warhammer 40,000 army
must be organised into 'units'." (3)

Units are made up of models

"always assume the shot is coming from the center or the blast marker, instead of the firing model..." (34)

Therefore where the shot is coming from = the firing model.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Here is where the rules equate the two:

"all of the models in the unit fire at the same time..." (13)
Models fire shots.

"The models that make up your Warhammer 40,000 army
must be organised into 'units'." (3)

Units are made up of models

"always assume the shot is coming from the center or the blast marker, instead of the firing model..." (34)

Therefore where the shot is coming from = the firing model.

That does not equate them. I'm missing the leap of logic you're making obviously.
Units are made of model, yes that's clear. Not really relevant to firing model.
Now the shot comes from the blast, instead of the firing model. So the shot has changed place, the firing model hasn't.
Still, how do you equate the two?
Nothing here shows that.

The rules i quoted show that models fire shots (Firing model).

Instead of the firing model firing the shot, the barrage rules state the shot instead comes from the center of the blast marker.

That's what shows it, even if you can not see it.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The rules i quoted show that models fire shots (Firing model).

Instead of the firing model firing the shot, the barrage rules state the shot instead comes from the center of the blast marker.

That's what shows it, even if you can not see it.

Right, so why the quotes about units? We're dealing with firing models.

Anyway, shots come from firing models. Agreed?
Shots are something that normally come from a model, in this case we are now told the shot comes from somewhere else. Agreed?

Now the rule only mentions shots are moved. The rule says the shot no longer comes from the firing unit.
The firing unit is still mentioned in the rule. We are not told this has changed. And we are not told the blast is now the firing unit.

Now what is making the blast the firing model? The rule doesn't tell us to do this. It's only telling us to move the shot.
There is no rule saying shots can only come from firing model, and no rule saying the firing model (that was named in the rule) is no longer the firing model.
Nothing equates them, the rule is separating shot from firing model.

 grendel083 wrote:
Shots are something that normally come from a model, in this case we are now told the shot comes from somewhere else. Agreed?

Yes, and that is why they are equated.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
Shots are something that normally come from a model, in this case we are now told the shot comes from somewhere else. Agreed?

Yes, and that is why they are equated.

That doesn't equate them. That's just were they normally come from. If they were equated the rule would have to say the blast is now the firing model. Or treat the blast as the firing model.
By separating the shot from the firing model, the rule is showing they do not equate. The rule mentions the firing model, and that the shot no longer comes from it.
That does not equate them.

The shot comes from the firing model.

In the case of barrage the firing model is the center of the blast marker.

Equated.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The shot comes from the firing model.

In the case of barrage the firing model is the center of the blast marker.

Equated.

Can you find a rule that states the underlined?
The rule says the shot comes from the blast instead of the firing model. Seperating shot from firing model. The opposite of equating.

You figure what the cover is from the center of the marker. But the firing unti is still 30" away. The fact that it is 30" away gives it shrouding. This is simple.

 Idolator wrote:
Can anyone quote from the rule book where it says that Stealth/Shroud are determined by the distance from the shooting unit to the firing unit?

I can't find that wording anywhere.

Page 124, left column, under "Picking a Target and Night Fighting". It is in bold.

Shots come from firing models.

"all of the models in the unit fire at the same time..." (13)

 DeathReaper wrote:
Shots come from firing models.

"all of the models in the unit fire at the same time..." (13)

That quotes doesn't prove anything, just that units fire.
Find a quote that says shots can only come from firing models, then you might have a leg to stand on.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The shot comes from the firing model.

In the case of barrage the firing model is the center of the blast marker.

Equated.

also irrelevant. a blast marker is not a model, nor a unit.

how do you determine distance between units?

pg 4. distance between units are always measured to and from the closest model.
and pg 71 for vehicles allows for the hull of vehicles to be used.

assuming the shot is coming from the center of the marker, instead of the firer, does not make the blast marker a model, nor a unit. Its just a point used to determine cover saves, not to alter ranges.

The shot "comes from" the center of the blast marker for the purposes of wound allocation and determining cover. Why would they specify only those two situations? That's because the DIRECTION the shot is coming from matters for determining whether a barricade/wall/etc is in between the shrapnel and the model to grant a cover save, and also to determine the closest models to the center of the blast because the closest models have to be allocated wounds.

That is all that rule says.

"It came at us from behind!"

Is behind the direction it came at you from, or is behind a specific place?

DeathReaper keeps falling back on other logical fallacies trying to prove his point in a little loop so lets take a look at the whole picure.

OP presents the situation:

nightfighting is enabled. pg 124
a barrage weapon (pg 34) is firing at a ork unit 30" away.
the orks have a KFF mek in the unit. grants a 5+ cover.

So we're in the shooting phase. Steps are:

1. Player#1 selects his unit with a barrage weapon to fire.

2. Player#1 selects Player#2's ork unit he wants to shoot at.
-Nightfighting rules kick in here and the distance from the firing unit is measured to the target unit.
-Distance is 30 inches so per the nightfighting rules, they can be fired upon and they now gain the shrouded special rule.

3. Player#1 places the blast template on the desired target model in the unit he is shooting at and rolls for scatter.

4. One model in Player#2's ork unit is under the template and is hit. Check for wound(assuming the shot camr form the blast templat center)... it does

5. Check for cover (assuming the shot camr form the blast templat center)... there is none on the table but the model has two special rules that apply to cover saves. Has KFF(5+ cover save) and Shrouded(+2 to existing cover save or 5+ cover on it's own). KFF is modified by Shrouded for a 3+ cover save.

-Note that everything after step 2 does not matter for determining night fighting effects as they have already been applied.



Now, lets take a look at this statment:

"To determine weather a unit wounded by a barrage weapon is allowed a cover save, and when determining wound allocation, always assume the shot is coming from the center or the blast marker, instead of the firing model... "

Note the wording "instead of the firing model"
You are not given permission to consider the blast template center as the fireing model or unit. You are only given permission to consider it as 'where the shot came from' and at that only for two very specific purposes, determining cover and wound allocation. No matter how much you might think it was intended or how logical you think it sounds(not at all if you ask me) it simply is not writen that way and in RAW, what you see is what you get. It in fact makes sure you don't assume the firing model is there by using the word "instead".

You have step 2 incorrect. Cover saves, and by extension Night fighting, is not assessed until step 5.