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Y'all have convinced me. The target unit gets Stealth/Shroud. I've been playing the other way. But no more.

 DeathReaper wrote:
You have step 2 incorrect. Cover saves, and by extension Night fighting, is not assessed until step 5.

Nope. Range was measured, the unoit was given Shrouding by virtue of it's range from the shooter. The unit now has shrouding for the purpose of resolving that attack.

Sir_Prometheus wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
You have step 2 incorrect. Cover saves, and by extension Night fighting, is not assessed until step 5.

Nope. Range was measured, the unoit was given Shrouding by virtue of it's range from the shooter. The unit now has shrouding for the purpose of resolving that attack.

and why are you assessing if the unit is Stealth/Shrouded when the rules do not tell you to assess Stealth/Shrouded?

 DeathReaper wrote:
You have step 2 incorrect. Cover saves, and by extension Night fighting, is not assessed until step 5.

No, they take effect when the target is picked. They are not at that time granted a cover save, they a given a Special Rule quite specifically named. What that Special Rule does is not the determining factor as to when they get it. It quite clearly states to check the range for night fighting at the time the target is selected and what the outcome of that check is. That Special Rule then later gives them a cover save or enhances their existing cover save.

I'm really not sure how this is confusing you, it's very straight forward. Nowhere in the night fighting rules does it say you do anything when you're checking for for cover. It puts all of it right there in step two of the shooting phase. Give some quotes that say it does or admit it does not.

It is not confusing me.

Stealth and shrouded grant a cover save, when do you assess cover saves?

When the cover save is taken, I suppose is what you're getting at. But it doesn't matter, they still have shrouding. They wre given shrouding when you measured the distance.

Sir_Prometheus wrote:
When the cover save is taken, I suppose is what you're getting at. But it doesn't matter, they still have shrouding. They wre given shrouding when you measured the distance.

Except the rules do not say that they gain the rule in step 2.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Sir_Prometheus wrote:
When the cover save is taken, I suppose is what you're getting at. But it doesn't matter, they still have shrouding. They wre given shrouding when you measured the distance.

Except the rules do not say that they gain the rule in step 2.

It does actually. Page 124.

Sir_Prometheus wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Sir_Prometheus wrote:
When the cover save is taken, I suppose is what you're getting at. But it doesn't matter, they still have shrouding. They wre given shrouding when you measured the distance.

Except the rules do not say that they gain the rule in step 2.

It does actually. Page 124.

you might want to re-read Page 124, it never mentions step 2.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Sir_Prometheus wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Sir_Prometheus wrote:
When the cover save is taken, I suppose is what you're getting at. But it doesn't matter, they still have shrouding. They wre given shrouding when you measured the distance.

Except the rules do not say that they gain the rule in step 2.

It does actually. Page 124.

you might want to re-read Page 124, it never mentions step 2.

That's true, because step 2 is something you made up, I was being lazy and didn't want to quote.

It says "units between 24 and 36 inches away are treated as having Shrouding". SO, is the unit more than 24" away? Great, it has shrouding. That's true when you first target it, it's true when you're making the saves. Because the unit doesn't move mid-shot. It's just that simple.

I never made up step 2...

 DeathReaper wrote:
I never made up step 2...

Don't care really. the unit has shrouding. Because pg 124 says so.

It's step 2 in the shooting rules: Pick a target (or something like that) That is when the Night fighting rules apply themselves as they clearly say.

Still waiting on those quotes DR.

Sir_Prometheus wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
I never made up step 2...

Don't care really. the unit has shrouding. Because pg 124 says so.

The unit has shrouded, which gives a cover save. when do you assess cover saves? (Shooting sequence tell us it is step 5 P.12)

 Abandon wrote:
It's step 2 in the shooting rules: Pick a target (or something like that) That is when the Night fighting rules apply themselves as they clearly say.

Still waiting on those quotes DR.

OIt doesn't matter, dude. It has shrouding. fini.

I would think no cover or 3+. the only time you would get a cover is if the barrage firer can see your models directly... then the shot comes from their line of direct sight. Otherwise they are firing indirectly which would ignore all cover saves aside from area terrain.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Sir_Prometheus wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
I never made up step 2...

Don't care really. the unit has shrouding. Because pg 124 says so.

The unit has shrouded, which gives a cover save. when do you assess cover saves? (Shooting sequence tell us it is step 5 P.12)

Shrouded gives a cover save, but is not itself a cover save. You would assess the effects of shrouded during Step 5 of the shooting sequence. You would however gain the Shrouded Special Rule during step 2 (this is when p124 tells you to do it "Picking a target and Night Fighting")

 grendel083 wrote:
Shrouded gives a cover save, but is not itself a cover save.

What?

That makes no sense.

Shrouded says "...Note that this means a model with the Shrouded special rule always has a cover save of at least 5+, even if it's in the open." P. 41

Shrouded is a cover save as that is shrouded's only effect.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
Shrouded gives a cover save, but is not itself a cover save.

What?

That makes no sense.

Shrouded says "...Note that this means a model with the Shrouded special rule always has a cover save of at least 5+, even if it's in the open." P. 41

Shrouded is a cover save as that is shrouded's only effect.

Is a Kustom Force Field a cover save? No it's a piece of wargear that grants a cover save.
Shrouded is a Special Rule that grants/improves a cover save. It is not a cover save, it's a Special Rule.

It doesn't really matter when the cover save is assessed or wahtever. It has a bonus to it's cover save. Because it's 30" away. That's the whole thing.

Cover saves don't stack with other cover saves, Shrouded does, it is not a cover save as it does not act like cover saves. It is a Special Rule that improves cover saves, or grants them if non exist.
You can assess the effects of shrouded at Step 5 of the Shooting Sequence, but would gain in at Step 2 when the night fighting rule tells you to.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
Shrouded gives a cover save, but is not itself a cover save.

What?

That makes no sense.

Shrouded says "...Note that this means a model with the Shrouded special rule always has a cover save of at least 5+, even if it's in the open." P. 41

Shrouded is a cover save as that is shrouded's only effect.

Sure it does. You're not taking a 'Shrouded save'. You're taking a cover save, modified by the Shrouded special rule.

-Yad

Shrouded is not a cover save. It's a rule that modifies a cover save. Sure, that can modify it from "none" to 5+. I don't see why this is confusing.

Bumping, the voting is not over yet, lets rock the vote

Oh and 3+ cover save

sirlynchmob wrote:
Bumping, the voting is not over yet, lets rock the vote

Oh and 3+ cover save

This thread was finally dead, finally off the front page, and you.... you.... you bumped it?
I'm going to spend a long time thinking of an appropriate curse.

 grendel083 wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
Bumping, the voting is not over yet, lets rock the vote

Oh and 3+ cover save

This thread was finally dead, finally off the front page, and you.... you.... you bumped it?
I'm going to spend a long time thinking of an appropriate curse.

sorry, I'll never bump it again.

oh dang it

Well lets see if the next FAQ finally covers this issue. I sent them a message and they have to listen to me, right?

After all, there are many inconsistencies in the Barrage weapons and Night Fighting rules.
For example, a vehicle cannot be wounded so it would get its save (and shrouded/stealth bonuses..) because the wording is: 'To determine if a unit wounded by a barrage weapon is allowed a cover save...'
That is my main argument on why the Tau Disruption pod works, but all of this just makes everything more confusing.