Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Until this is FAQ'd I am fairly sure this arguement will go on forever. I firmyl BELEIVE that RAI the barrage marker would deny night fighting cover saves and that the RAW is unclear but leans toward this. As for me I just use my Blast Masters and ignore the issue completely.

 Happyjew wrote:
So what happens if the blast marker lands directly on top of an enemy model? Now you have a model on top of an enemy model, and that is not allowed.

During movement it isn't. Is the marker there during movement?

rigeld2 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
So what happens if the blast marker lands directly on top of an enemy model? Now you have a model on top of an enemy model, and that is not allowed.

During movement it isn't. Is the marker there during movement?

No...Wait does that mean I can deploy (since it is not movement) models on top of other models then? Since there is no rule that models are Impassable Terrain anymore that I've seen anyway.

RAW I believe you're correct. It'd be stupid to allow, but I'm not sure there's anywhere it's explicitly stated that you can't stack.

That's an obvious RAW failure, however.

rigeld2 wrote:
RAW I believe you're correct. It'd be stupid to allow, but I'm not sure there's anywhere it's explicitly stated that you can't stack.

That's an obvious RAW failure, however.

Huzzah! Time to stack my tanks!

 Happyjew wrote:
So what happens if the blast marker lands directly on top of an enemy model? Now you have a model on top of an enemy model, and that is not allowed.

I've had that argument before as well. A blast template is not a model. The empty hole surrounded by a disc of plastic is fo' sho' not a model. It is the area from which the shot is presumed to have originated.

 Idolator wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
So what happens if the blast marker lands directly on top of an enemy model? Now you have a model on top of an enemy model, and that is not allowed.

I've had that argument before as well. A blast template is not a model. The empty hole surrounded by a disc of plastic is fo' sho' not a model. It is the area from which the shot is presumed to have originated.

Which would mean the target unit is still 12-36" away from the firing unit. Yay!

Which would mean the target unit is still 12-36" away from the firing unit. Yay!

Deathreaper examples still ignore the fact that the Stealth / Shrouded rule is already attached to the unit before the shot is even resolved. Which means without something in the Barrage rule to state that it ignores Stealth or Shrouded, those rules apply.

You can argue the shot comes from the moon, but it is irrelevant to the fact that the special rules are applied in Step 2 of the shooting sequence, while DR's whole argument applies in Step 5.

My examples ignore nothing.

Stealth/Shrouded are cover saves, or improve existing ones. They are assessed when it is time to allocate wounds and take saves. not before.

Therefore they are not "applied in Step 2 of the shooting sequence" they apply in step 5, as that is where you apply cover saves.

Can we acknowledge that determining cover is:

check for 25% obscurement
check for type of cover
consult chart for cover save.

That's it. Stealth and shroud have no part in that process. They take the number after it's been determined number and improve it.

Fragile wrote:
Deathreaper examples still ignore the fact that the Stealth / Shrouded rule is already attached to the unit before the shot is even resolved. Which means without something in the Barrage rule to state that it ignores Stealth or Shrouded, those rules apply.

You can argue the shot comes from the moon, but it is irrelevant to the fact that the special rules are applied in Step 2 of the shooting sequence, while DR's whole argument applies in Step 5.

This is getting technical, i know, but hey! It's a technical issue. The only refrence to the distance for the "The SHOOTING UNIT", states that they cannot pick a target more than 36" away. All the other references state "units between XX" and XX" away" and do not make mention to the shooting unit. This could be considered to be shots coming from the shooting model.

One could easily read that to mean units XX" away from a firing model receive the benefit. Five models in a SM tac squad are less than 12" from a unit of Orks with the remaining 5 are beyond 12". The Ork squad would get no benefit from the closest 5 but would gain stealth from the 5 marines that were beyond 12".

It's an issue that hasn't been brought up here as we were all arguing whether a models special rules override standing unit rules. This would also be a valid argument however.

 Idolator wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Deathreaper examples still ignore the fact that the Stealth / Shrouded rule is already attached to the unit before the shot is even resolved. Which means without something in the Barrage rule to state that it ignores Stealth or Shrouded, those rules apply.

You can argue the shot comes from the moon, but it is irrelevant to the fact that the special rules are applied in Step 2 of the shooting sequence, while DR's whole argument applies in Step 5.

This is getting technical, i know, but hey! It's a technical issue. The only refrence to the distance for the "The SHOOTING UNIT", states that they cannot pick a target more than 36" away. All the other references state "units between XX" and XX" away" and do not make mention to the shooting unit. This could be considered to be shots coming from the shooting model.

One could easily read that to mean units XX" away from a firing model receive the benefit. Five models in a SM tac squad are less than 12" from a unit of Orks with the remaining 5 are beyond 12". The Ork squad would get no benefit from the closest 5 but would gain stealth from the 5 marines that were beyond 12".

It's an issue that hasn't been brought up here as we were all arguing whether a models special rules override standing unit rules. This would also be a valid argument however.

pg 4 specifies how measure distance between units.

if the two units start <12" apart the unit being shot doesn't gain stealth. its not a model per model things, its unit by unit.

sirlynchmob wrote:
pg 4 specifies how measure distance between units.

if the two units start <12" apart the unit being shot doesn't gain stealth. its not a model per model things, its unit by unit.

That was the point of that post. There is only one reference to measuring from the "shooting unit". It could be read that the remaining references regard shooting model.

Just because one model in a unit is within range, it doesn't grant all models the ability to shoot and wound. If just one model has clear line of sight, it doesn't negate cover saves from other models firing in the unit.

sirlynchmob wrote:
Can we acknowledge that determining cover is:

check for 25% obscurement
check for type of cover
consult chart for cover save.

That's it. Stealth and shroud have no part in that process. They take the number after it's been determined number and improve it.

This

sirlynchmob wrote:
Can we acknowledge that determining cover is:

check for 25% obscurement
check for type of cover
consult chart for cover save.

That's it. Stealth and shroud have no part in that process. They take the number after it's been determined number and improve it.

Or grant you a cover save where none existed before. Which sounds a LOT like "determining" cover to me

nosferatu1001 wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
Can we acknowledge that determining cover is:

check for 25% obscurement
check for type of cover
consult chart for cover save.

That's it. Stealth and shroud have no part in that process. They take the number after it's been determined number and improve it.

Or grant you a cover save where none existed before. Which sounds a LOT like "determining" cover to me

No you determined the model has no cover save. Since there was no cover save to improve, it granted one.

It counts the cover save (which needed to be determined first) as being x points better.

Wrong, you determined that the model had no cover save *from terrain* (including other models in this) but you did NOT determine the model had "no" cover save; that can only come after you have decided if stealth / shrouding applies

It also does not make it "X" points better when you dont have a save to begin with, it sets it to a set value. There is no such thing as "you have a 7+ save in the open", which is what you are implying is the case

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Wrong, you determined that the model had no cover save *from terrain* (including other models in this) but you did NOT determine the model had "no" cover save; that can only come after you have decided if stealth / shrouding applies

It also does not make it "X" points better when you dont have a save to begin with, it sets it to a set value. There is no such thing as "you have a 7+ save in the open", which is what you are implying is the case

that's what I said.

shroud counts its cover save as being 2 points better than normal. How do you know weather to improve a save, or use the set value? You determine the cover save.

Read the determine cover rules and it says nothing about stealth/shroud.

No, it isnt what you said, at all.

Part of determining cover is working out if you have any cover from terrain, and if you have cover from other special rules.

You cannot determine the cover save in toto unless you consider Stealth / Shrouding as well. You can only arrive at an interim number

You were saying the whole of determining cover excludes stealth shroud, when that is not true.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, it isnt what you said, at all.

Part of determining cover is working out if you have any cover from terrain, and if you have cover from other special rules.

You cannot determine the cover save in toto unless you consider Stealth / Shrouding as well. You can only arrive at an interim number

You were saying the whole of determining cover excludes stealth shroud, when that is not true.

Right, so you determine cover saves from the blast.
You then apply the Shrouded rule (that was granted from NightFighting during the targeting stage of shooting, long ago) to arrive at the final save.

 grendel083 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, it isnt what you said, at all.

Part of determining cover is working out if you have any cover from terrain, and if you have cover from other special rules.

You cannot determine the cover save in toto unless you consider Stealth / Shrouding as well. You can only arrive at an interim number

You were saying the whole of determining cover excludes stealth shroud, when that is not true.

Right, so you determine cover saves from the blast.
You then apply the Shrouded rule (that was granted from NightFighting during the targeting stage of shooting, long ago) to arrive at the final save.

You determine Stealth/Shrouded at the time of determining cover saves, not before.

 DeathReaper wrote:
You determine Stealth/Shrouded at the time of determining cover saves, not before.

You factor in Stealth/Shrouded at the time of determining cover saves. The unit is granted the special rule when targeted during Night Fighting.

 Happyjew wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
You determine Stealth/Shrouded at the time of determining cover saves, not before.

The unit is granted the special rule when targeted during Night Fighting.

I have shown where you determine Stealth/Shrouded at the time of determining cover saves, not before.

No rules have been presented to the contrary.

So a model only has the Stealth/Shrouded special rule when determining if the unit has a cover save? Interesting logic.

I really want to agree with DeathReaper on this one, but I think they would get a 3+ cover, unfortunately. But that's only because they reworked Stealth/Shrouded into giving the benefitting unit a cover save no matter what.

Page 41 and 42 state that the unit gets a cover save no matter if it's in the open or not, and if it already gets a cover save from the KFF, then it gets improved by 2 steps.

The argument for when the rule is applied to the victim unit in question is wonky at best, because now we're just trying to come up with a "stack" like in Magic: The Gathering. GW has never really been a company to have such clear and defined rules, unfortunately.

editted for spelling, I'm an engineer, not an english major, dammit =p

 Happyjew wrote:
So a model only has the Stealth/Shrouded special rule when determining if the unit has a cover save? Interesting logic.

When would you calculate if it has Stealth/Shrouded if you are not at the point of determining if the unit has a cover save?

 Happyjew wrote:
So a model only has the Stealth/Shrouded special rule when determining if the unit has a cover save? Interesting logic.

Yeah, that doesn't make sense at all. You determine cover from the center of the marker, then apply Stealth/Shrouding.

No cover from marker + Stealth = 6+ cover save
No cover from marker + Shrouded = 5+ cover save

Cover from marker + Stealth = most likely a 4+ cover save
Cover from marker + Shrouded = most likely a 3+ cover save

Stealth and Shrouded are modifiers to cover saves (+1 and +2 respectively). Even if the cover determination is null (meaning no cover is initially determined) you still apply the Stealth and Shrouded modifiers.

-Yad

If the Stealth and Shrouded modifiers apply, but if the shot is coming from 3 inches away, then the distance between the firing unit (Where the shot is coming from) and the target unit is only 3 inches, which is not enough to grant Stealth or Shrouded.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
So a model only has the Stealth/Shrouded special rule when determining if the unit has a cover save? Interesting logic.

When would you calculate if it has Stealth/Shrouded if you are not at the point of determining if the unit has a cover save?

Well the one the that comes to mind is the one Necron guy who has Counter Tactics, allowing you to remove Stealth from an enemy unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DeathReaper wrote:
If the Stealth and Shrouded modifiers apply, but if the shot is coming from 3 inches away, then the distance between the firing unit (Where the shot is coming from) and the target unit is only 3 inches, which is not enough to grant Stealth or Shrouded.

No the distance between the units determine whether or not the unit gets stealth or shrouded. Not where the shot is considered to be coming from.