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Fragile wrote:
Your ignoring your own post DR. Stealth and Shrouded are Special rules. They are not cover.

They are rules that grant a cover save.

They permit a unit to have a cover save, even when one would not normally be allowed by normal situations.

With exceptions of course.

And a unit that has S/S has a cover save vs a barrage weapon or an improved one if it already has a cover save.

If the unit has Stealth or Shrouded and the attack does not ignore cover then they give the unit a cover save.

Determining if the unit gets a cover save, and the value of that save, is done "when you come to allocate a Wound," P. 18

 DeathReaper wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Your ignoring your own post DR. Stealth and Shrouded are Special rules. They are not cover.

They are rules that grant a cover save.

They permit a unit to have a cover save, even when one would not normally be allowed by normal situations.

With exceptions of course.

And a unit that has S/S has a cover save vs a barrage weapon or an improved one if it already has a cover save.

If the unit has Stealth or Shrouded and the attack does not ignore cover then they give the unit a cover save.

Determining if the unit gets a cover save, and the value of that save, is done "when you come to allocate a Wound," P. 18

And that changes the distance between the units how?

The rule on Page 34 equates where the shot is coming from to the firing model.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The rule on Page 34 equates where the shot is coming from to the firing model.

\

that doesn't change the distance between the units. it just changes the POV for the shot to determine if its 25% obscured or not. Where is the unit the model that fired the barrage? some 30" away.

pg 18 determine cover saves. nothing about distance there.

all you get permission to do from barrage is check for 25% cover, pg 18, and allocate from the center of the blast. It never changes the distance between the two units. And its the distance between the two units that determine stealth/shroud and even if the shot scatters, the two units use the distance at the time the shot was fired. pg 124 night fighting. "the distance from the firing unit to the original unit is used"

I know that I wasn't going to get in on this but, Hey! I have no conviction.

Anyway, This is one of those cases where there is no deffinetive. The two rules as written, diametricaly oppose one another.

One says that targets XX" from the firing UNIT get XX benefits.

The other says that the shot comes from Point X, not the firing MODEL.

One is obviously designed to take precedence over the other. Which one? It's a matter of opinion.

The same problem occurs in the Out of Sight rules vs Blast/Barrage rules.

Both instances have to be a matter of opinion as there is nothing that states which rule is to be considered over the other.

Can anyone show where either rule gives precedence over the other. IF you can't, then we're all just arguing opinion.

Editted to add punctuatuion.

It's pretty definite:
* If you are X inches away when picked as a target, you gain the Shrouded/Stealth rules. Which improves any covers saves you get from being obscured or gives a cover save when not.
* The blast marker's hole is used to to determine whether you gain a cover save from being 25" obscured.

The two things are not in conflict.

The blast marker doesn't negate the fact that you get Shrouded and/or Stealth.
It merely changes if you get a cover save from being obscured at step 5 (allocate wounds).

 Shandara wrote:
It's pretty definite:
* If you are X inches away when picked as a target, you gain the Shrouded/Stealth rules. Which improves any covers saves you get from being obscured or gives a cover save when not.
* The blast marker's hole is used to to determine whether you gain a cover save from being 25" obscured.

The two things are not in conflict.

The blast marker doesn't negate the fact that you get Shrouded and/or Stealth.
It merely changes if you get a cover save from being obscured at step 5 (allocate wounds).

Shroud and Stealth improve cover.

A unit that's obscured by a wall is hit from behind, due to the blast marker fired by a barrage weapon negating it's existing cover.

Once again it's the position of the blast the determines cover becase the shot comes from the center of the blast not the model. The rules for Night Fight reference units.

Which takes precedence the UNIT rule or the MODEL rule? This determination affects the rule for Blast/Barrage vs Out of Sight as well.

If you allow stealth and Shroud to take effect againt barrage attacks but then allow barrage weapons to wound models that cannot be seen by any model in the firing unit then you are playing by house rules.

Except Shroud/Stealth specifically improve a cover save if there is none.

Nivek5150 wrote:
Except Shroud/Stealth specifically improve a cover save if there is none.

True enough. I edited that out. The rest still works.

Barrage Blasts do not negate ALL cover, they merely negate that comes from being obscured if the models are not obscured from the point of the center hole.

Shrouded/Stealth provide cover by themselves as well as improving existing cover. If the unit has either Stealth or both it gains a 6+/4+ cover save regardless of where the marker is, because if from the perspective of the center hole there is no obscuring they are 'in the open'.

It has no bearing on wounding models out of LoS.

 Shandara wrote:
Barrage Blasts do not negate ALL cover, they merely negate that comes from being obscured if the models are not obscured from the point of the center hole.

Shrouded/Stealth provide cover by themselves as well as improving existing cover. If the unit has either Stealth or both it gains a 6+/4+ cover save regardless of where the marker is, because if from the perspective of the center hole there is no obscuring they are 'in the open'.

It has no bearing on wounding models out of LoS.

That is ignoring the point that I made.

Both rules, Night Fight and Out of Sight rely on rules based on the realative position of the targeted unit in relation to the firing UNIT.

If you grant a unit stealth/shroud based on the relative position of the targeted unit to the firing unit, while ignoring the relative position of the targeted unit to the firing unit for out of Sight, then you are then just using a house rule.

As neither Night Fight nor Out of Sight take into consideration the position of the firing model and rely entirely on the position of the firing unit. They must be applied in the same manner.

The issue is timing. When you declare the shot is being taken, aka Step 2 of the Shooting sequence laid out on pg 12, the affected unit gains the Special Rule of either Stealth or Shrouded.

pg 124. ""If a shooting attack scatters, the distance from the firing unit to the original target is used to determine what effect Night Fighting has"". So regardless of where the scatter lands, the original distance is always used to determine what Special Rule was gained. This means that a barrage can scatter from a target 20" away onto a unit 8" away and that unit still has Stealth.

Now once the blast's location has been worked out you roll for wounds/saves, which is Step 5 of the shooting sequence. Then you use the center hole to determine whether there is cover or not. (Area terrain, ruins, etc...) Then you apply the Special rules to modify that cover save.

Set aside night fight for a moment. Do you agree that a unit with stealth or shrouded benefit from those rules against barrage weaponry? Of course you do barrage is not Ignores Cover.

Now we go back to night fighting. The night fighting rules grant stealth or shrouded under certain conditions. These conditions are determined before the blast marker exists. You can't use the blast marker to determine the distance to the target at this point since we haven't placed the blast marker yet, so even with the barrage rules you have to measure from the firing unit. At this point the unit has shrouded (they are 30" away in the OP). Now you can place the marker proceed as normal.

The target unit still has shrouded, you can't retroactively take it away. Since the target unit is under the effect of KFF and has shrouded it gets a 3+ cover save.

I also want to restate the rule on pg 34.

"To determine whether a unit wounded by a Barrage weapon is allowed a cover save, and when determining wound allocation, always consider the shot is coming from the center of the blast marker, instead of the firing model."

Emphasis mine.

It does not say determining cover, only determining whether or not the unit wounded gets a cover save. This has no bearing on Night Fight.

Fragile wrote:
The issue is timing. When you declare the shot is being taken, aka Step 2 of the Shooting sequence laid out on pg 12, the affected unit gains the Special Rule of either Stealth or Shrouded.

pg 124. ""If a shooting attack scatters, the distance from the firing unit to the original target is used to determine what effect Night Fighting has"". So regardless of where the scatter lands, the original distance is always used to determine what Special Rule was gained. This means that a barrage can scatter from a target 20" away onto a unit 8" away and that unit still has Stealth.

Now once the blast's location has been worked out you roll for wounds/saves, which is Step 5 of the shooting sequence. Then you use the center hole to determine whether there is cover or not. (Area terrain, ruins, etc...) Then you apply the Special rules to modify that cover save.

My question is: What causes the Night Fight rule to take precedence over the Barrage rule. I'm not saying that I disagree. I am saying that, if it does take precedence, the same case does indeed apply to Out of Sight taking precedence over Barrage as well. The rules work in exactly the same manner.

"To determine whether a unit wounded by a Barrage weapon is allowed a cover save, and when determining wound allocation, always consider the shot is coming from the center of the blast marker, instead of the firing model."

Find permission for it to be used to calculate distanced from the firing unit to the target. Two very specific times are listed for when you consider the shot to be coming from the center of the blast.

Also, if you really want to lay into someone with your guard tanks in the middle of the night, all Chimeras come with searchlights by default.

 Idolator wrote:

Fragile wrote:
The issue is timing. When you declare the shot is being taken, aka Step 2 of the Shooting sequence laid out on pg 12, the affected unit gains the Special Rule of either Stealth or Shrouded.

pg 124. ""If a shooting attack scatters, the distance from the firing unit to the original target is used to determine what effect Night Fighting has"". So regardless of where the scatter lands, the original distance is always used to determine what Special Rule was gained. This means that a barrage can scatter from a target 20" away onto a unit 8" away and that unit still has Stealth.

Now once the blast's location has been worked out you roll for wounds/saves, which is Step 5 of the shooting sequence. Then you use the center hole to determine whether there is cover or not. (Area terrain, ruins, etc...) Then you apply the Special rules to modify that cover save.

My question is: What causes the Night Fight rule to take precedence over the Barrage rule. I'm not saying that I disagree. I am saying that, if it does take precedence, the same case does indeed apply to Out of Sight taking precedence over Barrage as well. The rules work in exactly the same manner.

They do not conflict so there is no need for either to take precedence. Night fighting gives the target unit a special rule when the target is selceted. Barrage fires as it normally would at an enemy with that special rule. The special rule gives that unit a cover save/bonus.

 Idolator wrote:

Fragile wrote:
The issue is timing. When you declare the shot is being taken, aka Step 2 of the Shooting sequence laid out on pg 12, the affected unit gains the Special Rule of either Stealth or Shrouded.

pg 124. ""If a shooting attack scatters, the distance from the firing unit to the original target is used to determine what effect Night Fighting has"". So regardless of where the scatter lands, the original distance is always used to determine what Special Rule was gained. This means that a barrage can scatter from a target 20" away onto a unit 8" away and that unit still has Stealth.

Now once the blast's location has been worked out you roll for wounds/saves, which is Step 5 of the shooting sequence. Then you use the center hole to determine whether there is cover or not. (Area terrain, ruins, etc...) Then you apply the Special rules to modify that cover save.

My question is: What causes the Night Fight rule to take precedence over the Barrage rule. I'm not saying that I disagree. I am saying that, if it does take precedence, the same case does indeed apply to Out of Sight taking precedence over Barrage as well. The rules work in exactly the same manner.

Sequence is the simple answer to this argument. In the Shooting Sequence you gain Stealth/shroud in step 2. In Step 5 is where you are working out cover saves. There is nothing in the Barrage rule that lets you go back to step 2. Once you have gained that rule, Barrage does not take it away. The blast marker is used for determining cover. The shot is determined to come from the center of the marker, but the unit already has Stealth. So even though the shot is only 2" away, the unit still gains any benefits of Stealth because the Stealth Special Rule does not have any requirements for distance.

 Abandon wrote:
They do not conflict so there is no need for either to take precedence. Night fighting gives the target unit a special rule when the target is selceted. Barrage fires as it normally would at an enemy with that special rule. The special rule gives that unit a cover save/bonus.

Saying that they don't conflict is one thing. There are lots of people here that disagree with that. Hence a 5 page thread.

Can a Barrage weapon hit and wound a unit that cannot be seen by any model in the firing unit? If no, then nightfighting targets gaining shroud/stealth from barrage makes sense. If yes, then a nightfight target would not get the benefits.

 Idolator wrote:

 Abandon wrote:
They do not conflict so there is no need for either to take precedence. Night fighting gives the target unit a special rule when the target is selceted. Barrage fires as it normally would at an enemy with that special rule. The special rule gives that unit a cover save/bonus.

Saying that they don't conflict is one thing. There are lots of people here that disagree with that. Hence a 5 page thread.

Can a Barrage weapon hit and wound a unit that cannot be seen by any model in the firing unit? If no, then nightfighting targets gaining shroud/stealth from barrage makes sense. If yes, then a nightfight target would not get the benefits.

Hit? Yes. Wound? Yes. Allocate Wounds? Iffy. Re-reading the rules for out of sight and Barrage, there does not appear to be any permission to allocate wounds to units completely out of sight from the firing unit. Although I don't play it that way.

5+ cover seems most sensible to me.

 Happyjew wrote:

 Idolator wrote:

 Abandon wrote:
They do not conflict so there is no need for either to take precedence. Night fighting gives the target unit a special rule when the target is selceted. Barrage fires as it normally would at an enemy with that special rule. The special rule gives that unit a cover save/bonus.

Saying that they don't conflict is one thing. There are lots of people here that disagree with that. Hence a 5 page thread.

Can a Barrage weapon hit and wound a unit that cannot be seen by any model in the firing unit? If no, then nightfighting targets gaining shroud/stealth from barrage makes sense. If yes, then a nightfight target would not get the benefits.

Hit? Yes. Wound? Yes. Allocate Wounds? Iffy. Re-reading the rules for out of sight and Barrage, there does not appear to be any permission to allocate wounds to units completely out of sight from the firing unit. Although I don't play it that way.

Yeah, the night fight and out of sight rules are in the same vein. They're both rules that reference units while blast/barrage only reference models. That's where I was going with it. If people don't treat them the same way, they're playing by house rules.

I'm of the opinion that Blasts and Barrage delivered blasts can wound models out of sight of the unit. I'm also of the opinion that models don't get stealth/shroud from barrage. It's consistent.

Changing how a rule works for one situation, without noting it as an exception, changes the whole paradigm of a rule. Since all exceptions made by players are not cannon they must then be considered house rules.

Its not consistent when you say that Barrage removes a special rule that was previously attached.

Fragile wrote:
Its not consistent when you say that Barrage removes a special rule that was previously attached.

Stating that blast/barrage rules take precedence over both nightfight and out of sight is indeed consistent. Stating that it only takes precendent over one or the other is inconsistent. Universally applying a special rule for models over the special rules for units would be the definition of consistent.

Happyjew wrote:

 Idolator wrote:

 Abandon wrote:
They do not conflict so there is no need for either to take precedence. Night fighting gives the target unit a special rule when the target is selceted. Barrage fires as it normally would at an enemy with that special rule. The special rule gives that unit a cover save/bonus.

Saying that they don't conflict is one thing. There are lots of people here that disagree with that. Hence a 5 page thread.

Can a Barrage weapon hit and wound a unit that cannot be seen by any model in the firing unit? If no, then nightfighting targets gaining shroud/stealth from barrage makes sense. If yes, then a nightfight target would not get the benefits.

Hit? Yes. Wound? Yes. Allocate Wounds? Iffy. Re-reading the rules for out of sight and Barrage, there does not appear to be any permission to allocate wounds to units completely out of sight from the firing unit. Although I don't play it that way.

Actually there is. You consider the shot to come from the center of the template for determining cover and allocating wounds.

Idolator wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 Idolator wrote:

 Abandon wrote:
They do not conflict so there is no need for either to take precedence. Night fighting gives the target unit a special rule when the target is selceted. Barrage fires as it normally would at an enemy with that special rule. The special rule gives that unit a cover save/bonus.

Saying that they don't conflict is one thing. There are lots of people here that disagree with that. Hence a 5 page thread.

Can a Barrage weapon hit and wound a unit that cannot be seen by any model in the firing unit? If no, then nightfighting targets gaining shroud/stealth from barrage makes sense. If yes, then a nightfight target would not get the benefits.

Hit? Yes. Wound? Yes. Allocate Wounds? Iffy. Re-reading the rules for out of sight and Barrage, there does not appear to be any permission to allocate wounds to units completely out of sight from the firing unit. Although I don't play it that way.

Yeah, the night fight and out of sight rules are in the same vein. They're both rules that reference units while blast/barrage only reference models. That's where I was going with it. If people don't treat them the same way, they're playing by house rules.

I'm of the opinion that Blasts and Barrage delivered blasts can wound models out of sight of the unit. I'm also of the opinion that models don't get stealth/shroud from barrage. It's consistent.

Changing how a rule works for one situation, without noting it as an exception, changes the whole paradigm of a rule. Since all exceptions made by players are not cannon they must then be considered house rules.

Barrage weapons(being a blast weapon) have exceptions for out of sight and even out of range models to be hit and wounded. They do not have an exceptions for shroud/stealth or cover(excepting of course changing the direction the shot comes from)

Barrage weapons(being a blast weapon) have exceptions for out of sight and even out of range models to be hit and wounded. They do not have an exceptions for shroud/stealth or cover(excepting of course changing the direction the shot comes from)

I'd say wait til I get off work so I can look up the page for you but... it does not even matter for this topic as not having LOS on a model is not the same as that model having stealth/shroud. If you'd care to stay on topic, tell us where it says they don't get cover saves or they lose their special rules.... It's not there.They get there cover save and the bonus for a 3+

 Abandon wrote:
I'd say wait til I get off work so I can look up the page for you but... it does not even matter for this topic as not having LOS on a model is not the same as that model having stealth/shroud. If you'd care to stay on topic, tell us where it says they don't get cover saves or they lose their special rules.... It's not there.They get there cover save and the bonus for a 3+

I've stayed on topic. I use one rule to explain the other. You may not like the way that I explained it, but I've remained on topic. Both rules are applied in the same manner. If one is excepted the the other must be excepted. Simple.

I agree that both rules are written so that the special rules for the firing model do not take precedence over the rules for firing units. I also mentioned that I believe that the rules for the firing model were intended to take precedence over the rules for the firing unit.

If someone believes that a blast/barrage weapon wounds can be allocated to models that are not visible to thte firing unit then they should also agree that models fired upon by blast would not gain stealth/shroud. It is the visibility from the firing unit that dictates each rule.

Except using the wound pool to apply to night fighting is a fallacy. They have nothing to do with each other. They are not applied in the same manner.

Show me any special rule that automatically attaches to a unit that is out of LOS.

 Idolator wrote:

 Abandon wrote:
I'd say wait til I get off work so I can look up the page for you but... it does not even matter for this topic as not having LOS on a model is not the same as that model having stealth/shroud. If you'd care to stay on topic, tell us where it says they don't get cover saves or they lose their special rules.... It's not there.They get there cover save and the bonus for a 3+

If someone believes that a blast/barrage weapon wounds can be allocated to models that are not visible to thte firing unit then they should also agree that models fired upon by blast would not gain stealth/shroud. It is the visibility from the firing unit that dictates each rule.

Visibility does not dictate night fighting effects. Distance between the units does.

 Abandon wrote:

 Idolator wrote:

 Abandon wrote:
I'd say wait til I get off work so I can look up the page for you but... it does not even matter for this topic as not having LOS on a model is not the same as that model having stealth/shroud. If you'd care to stay on topic, tell us where it says they don't get cover saves or they lose their special rules.... It's not there.They get there cover save and the bonus for a 3+

If someone believes that a blast/barrage weapon wounds can be allocated to models that are not visible to thte firing unit then they should also agree that models fired upon by blast would not gain stealth/shroud. It is the visibility from the firing unit that dictates each rule.

Visibility does not dictate night fighting effects. Distance between the units does.

It's an effect of darkness. Saying that it's not visibility would be like saying the BS of a model has nothing to do with the skill of a model being able to shoot. The models can't see, shoot, move. If you want to be exact.

It is the relative position of the firing unit in relation to the target unit that dictates both rules.