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nightfighting is enabled. pg 124
a barrage weapon (pg 34) is firing at a ork unit 30" away.
the orks have a KFF mek in the unit. grants a 5+ cover.

Clearly any barrage shots count as the shot coming from the center of the blast marker, therefore nightfighting's stealth/shrouded will never have any effect for a unit hit with a barrage weapon.

RAW 5+ in the situation you describe.

5+. For the purposes of determining cover you treat the shot as coming from the center of the Barrage marker.

The distance between the two units grants the target unit stealth? so the unit should have stealth with the kff even if the shot is considered to come from the center of the blast.

I could've sworn this came up before. IIRC since the distance from the firing unit to the target is used (not from the firing model) they would still get Stealth/Shrouding. Also considering that when an attack scatters you use the distance from the firing unit to the original target to determine effect.

sirlynchmob wrote:
The distance between the two units grants the target unit stealth? so the unit should have stealth with the kff even if the shot is considered to come from the center of the blast.

Not for Barrage weapons, because "For the purposes of determining cover you treat the shot as coming from the center of the Barrage marker. " (rigeld2)

Found it, here. It came out just after the change is disruptor pods.

 Happyjew wrote:
Found it, here. It came out just after the change is disruptor pods.

thanks for finding that, I'll give it a read

Basically the argument against gaining Stealth/Shrouded is (as DR and rigeld put it) the shot is considered to becoming from the centre hole, which since it is always within 12" will deny stealth/shrouded.
The argument for is that Stealth/Shrouded is determined when picking a target. Since the firing unit picks a target and that gives the "victims" the special rule, then barrage has no effect on denying stealth/shrouded.

Do have in mind allot of barrage weapons have IGNORE COVER. if not, 5 due it lands in the center.

I'm most definitely on the side of the target gaining Stealth/Shrouded. There's a whole list of reasons to support this.
As mentioned before, you establish if the unit has Stealth/shrouded during the targeting stage, long before the final position of the template is established.
Also you determine cover saves from the centre of the blast. Stealth is not a cover save (it grants a cover save, but is not a cover save itself, it's a Special Rule).
Determining cover saves from the blast is completely different to working out if a unit benefits from Stealth/Shrouded via NightFighting.

 Happyjew wrote:
The argument for is that Stealth/Shrouded is determined when picking a target. Since the firing unit picks a target and that gives the "victims" the special rule, then barrage has no effect on denying stealth/shrouded.

So if I target a unit at 13" (giving the target Stealth at this point) and the shot scatters to a unit at 11", Stealth is granted to the unit that was hit?

rigeld2 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
The argument for is that Stealth/Shrouded is determined when picking a target. Since the firing unit picks a target and that gives the "victims" the special rule, then barrage has no effect on denying stealth/shrouded.

So if I target a unit at 13" (giving the target Stealth at this point) and the shot scatters to a unit at 11", Stealth is granted to the unit that was hit?

yep pg 124, the original target is used to determine what effect night fighting has.

Anything that effects the cover save is governed by the Barrage Rules on P. 34.

"To determine weather a unit wounded by a barrage weapon is allowed a cover save, and when determining wound allocation, always assume the shot is coming from the center or the blast marker, instead of the firing model..." (34)

Therefore anytime we need to determine what a unit's cover save is, we "assume the shot is coming from the center or the blast marker, instead of the firing model."

So the orks in the OP will have a 5+ as we look at the center of the marker, instead of the firing unit to determine how far away the shot came from.

However, the target unit will also possibly have Stealth or Shrouded based on the distance from the firing unit.

 Happyjew wrote:
However, the target unit will also possibly have Stealth or Shrouded based on the distance from the firing unit.

Premise 1: Shots always come from the firing unit (Do we agree on Premise 1?)

Since Shots always come from the firing unit, in the case of a barrage weapon, the firing unit must be the center of the marker, as we "always assume the shot is coming from the center or the blast marker, instead of the firing model..." (34)

It says to "always assume" therefore the center of the marker is counted as the firing unit, as that is where the shots are coming from.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
However, the target unit will also possibly have Stealth or Shrouded based on the distance from the firing unit.

Premise 1: Shots always come from the firing unit (Do we agree on Premise 1?)

Since Shots always come from the firing unit, in the case of a barrage weapon, the firing unit must be the center of the marker, as we "always assume the shot is coming from the center or the blast marker, instead of the firing model..." (34)

It says to "always assume" therefore the center of the marker is counted as the firing unit, as that is where the shots are coming from.

No, shots come from the firing models. Otherwise if a unit was exactly 24" away from its target, all models that are further back would be able to fire 24" range weapons.

Also you assume the shot is coming from the centre hole instead of the firing model. Or are you claiming that if a unit fires a barrage weapon and a non-barrage weapon that all shots (including the non-barrage) are treated as coing from the hole?

Okay Premise 1: Shots come from the firing models (That are in a unit) (Do we agree on Premise 1?)

 Happyjew wrote:
Also you assume the shot is coming from the centre hole instead of the firing model.

Actually that is Exactly what the P.34 barrage rules say. "always assume the shot is coming from the center or the blast marker, instead of the firing model..." (34)

Since Shots always come from the firing model, in the case of a barrage weapon, the firing model must be the center of the marker, as we "always assume the shot is coming from the center or the blast marker, instead of the firing model..." (34)

So the firing model is the center of the blast marker for barrage purposes.

Which would mean (since we are treating the centre hole as a member of the firing unit), they would also not get stealth/shrouded from non-barrage attacks since the unit as a whole is now well within 12". Furthermore it would allow you to allocate non-barrage wounds to models that are completely out of sight from the firing unit.

I can't see the described situation. What was it?

 Idolator wrote:
I can't see the described situation. What was it?

a unit with a barrage weapon fires at a unit of orks 30" away within a KFF. so 5+ cover save

because the two units are 30" apart the orks should have shroud.

Others think that having a barrage weapon negates the shroud granted by nightfighting due to the distance between the units.

 Happyjew wrote:
Which would mean (since we are treating the centre hole as a member of the firing unit), they would also not get stealth/shrouded from non-barrage attacks since the unit as a whole is now well within 12". Furthermore it would allow you to allocate non-barrage wounds to models that are completely out of sight from the firing unit.

You only treat the center hole as a member of the firing unit for barrage as barrage says to assume the shot comes from the center, but it only says that in the rules for barrage, no mention of that in the blast rules.

Shroud / Stealth are not given as a 'cover' save or as a result of cover, from Night Fighting. They are granted simply by the distance from the firing model to the target. Regardless of of the type of shot, the target units have this rule because of Night Fight, not because they are in cover.

 DeathReaper wrote:
You only treat the center hole as a member of the firing unit for barrage as barrage says to assume the shot comes from the center, but it only says that in the rules for barrage, no mention of that in the blast rules.

This isn't a rule anywhere in the book. The Barrage rules only give permission to change three things from normal shooting. Shoot something out of LoS with rules for firing within minimum range, determine where the cover save is granted, and where wounds are allocated. There is nothing to say that you ever treat the center of the model 'as the firing' unit for all shooting. It is incorrect to make such an assumption based off of the line 'always assume the shot is coming from the center of the blast marker' without listing the two exceptions to the normal rules for shooting. Nothing in the Barrage rules removes Stealth or Shroud for units that have them, nor does it grant any permission to ever say that you treat the entire shot as coming from the center of the blast, as if it comes from the firing model. The shot still comes from the firing model with the only exceptions being the 2 listed. You only check to see if the unit has a Cover save, then modify it by Stealth/Shroud. Then when you fail the appropriate save, we know which models to assign wounds to first.

To simplify. We treat the shot as coming from the center of the Blast, but only to determine if the unit has a cover save, and when we allocate wounds. That's all the Barrage rules give us permission to do. Everything else follows the normal shooting rules, and that includes determining whether a unit has Stealth/Shroud. The Night Fighting rules are quite clear on this. The second to the last line under Night Fight supports this, 'if a shooting attack scatters, the distance from the firing unit to the original target is used to determine what effect Night Fighting grants. Not 'where the shot lands'. In the above example, you shoot the unit that is 30" away and it scatters to a unit that is 20" away. That unit that is 20" away counts the distance from the firing unit, not the shot, when determining whether Night Fight applies Stealth/Shroud.

To further clarify that they DO get Shroud and Stealth, even with Barrage weapons, we look at these rules. Units with these rules, count their cover save as being 1(or 2 respectively) points better than their existing cover save. Both of these rules also go on to clearly state that they grant a 6+ (5+) ALWAYS, even if in the open. Since the Barrage rules only permit to check for which units have Cover at the time the shot lands, and never for Stealth and Shroud, they are still there. So even by the RAW listed under these rules, your Barrage scatters, they hit a unit behind a building, that unit is in the open, Stealth / Shroud ALWAYS grant them a 6+/5+ save, minimum. In the case of the KFF, they have a 5+ cover save, and they get the bonus for Stealth/Shroud, since Stealth/Shroud have nothing to do with where the shot actually lands.

The only BRB rule that even comes close to getting around the Stealth/Shroud bonus is the 'Ignores Cover' rule. Even this rule, doesn't remove Stealth / Shroud. It simply says that cover saves of any kind cannot be taken. They still always have it, they just can't use it.

It seems pretty clear to me that barrage (and only barrage) weapons would not grant an enhanced cover save in this case, but I've been wrong before.

 Jimsolo wrote:
It seems pretty clear to me that barrage (and only barrage) weapons would not grant an enhanced cover save in this case, but I've been wrong before.

And according to the poll, there are others who feel that way. I fully understand WHY people see Barrage as overriding the Night Fight rules. The rules behind it doing so aren't as strongly supported as Stealth/Shroud still being in effect.

It's an oversimplification of 'Well since we treat the shot as coming from the center, we treat everything as coming from the center.' when no mention or permission is given to actually do so.

I think Deathreaper is right on this one. I was undecided and thought it could have gone either way until.....

"always assume the shot is coming from the center or the blast marker, instead of the firing model..." (34)

ALWAYS ignore the model firing model and use the center or the blast marker. Everyone wants to add "unless it is night fighting" ........... I don't see that anywhere.

 Akar wrote:
Shroud / Stealth are not given as a 'cover' save or as a result of cover, from Night Fighting. They are granted simply by the distance from the firing model to the target. Regardless of of the type of shot, the target units have this rule because of Night Fight, not because they are in cover.

This does not matter for barrage.

 Akar wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
You only treat the center hole as a member of the firing unit for barrage as barrage says to assume the shot comes from the center, but it only says that in the rules for barrage, no mention of that in the blast rules.

The Barrage rules only give permission to change three things from normal shooting. Shoot something out of LoS with rules for firing within minimum range, determine where the cover save is granted...

Premise 1: Shots come from firing models (That are in a unit) (Do we agree on Premise 1?)
Premise 2: The cover save is granted, or not depending on where the shot is coming from. (Do we agree on Premise #2?)

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Akar wrote:
Shroud / Stealth are not given as a 'cover' save or as a result of cover, from Night Fighting. They are granted simply by the distance from the firing model to the target. Regardless of of the type of shot, the target units have this rule because of Night Fight, not because they are in cover.

This does not matter for barrage.

 Akar wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
You only treat the center hole as a member of the firing unit for barrage as barrage says to assume the shot comes from the center, but it only says that in the rules for barrage, no mention of that in the blast rules.

The Barrage rules only give permission to change three things from normal shooting. Shoot something out of LoS with rules for firing within minimum range, determine where the cover save is granted...

Premise 1: Shots come from firing models (That are in a unit) (Do we agree on Premise 1?)
Premise 2: The cover save is granted, or not depending on where the shot is coming from. (Do we agree on Premise #2?)

Premise 1: Correct.
Premise 2: Partially correct. LOS dependent cover saves depend on where the shot is coming from. Gaining Stealth or Shrouded is independent of which direction the shot is coming from and dependent on how far the original target is from the firing unit.

Mythra wrote:
I think Deathreaper is right on this one. I was undecided and thought it could have gone either way until.....

"always assume the shot is coming from the center or the blast marker, instead of the firing model..." (34)

ALWAYS ignore the model firing model and use the center or the blast marker. Everyone wants to add "unless it is night fighting" ........... I don't see that anywhere.

Yes the shot is considered to come from the center of the marker,

the model is still 30" away.

as the two units are 30" away the unit gains shroud.

stealth and shroud are granted based on distance between units, barrage does not change the distance between the units.

 Happyjew wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Premise 1: Shots come from firing models (That are in a unit) (Do we agree on Premise 1?)
Premise 2: The cover save is granted, or not depending on where the shot is coming from. (Do we agree on Premise #2?)

Premise 1: Correct.
Premise 2: Partially correct. LOS dependent cover saves depend on where the shot is coming from. Gaining Stealth or Shrouded is independent of which direction the shot is coming from and dependent on how far the original target is from the firing unit.

Therefore since we agree on #1, then the center of a barrage should be considered the firing model, as barrage is a specific special case within the rules.

Therefore stealth/shrouded would be calculated as if the center was the firing model.