As an opponent, what do you find to be the most annoying thing - either unit, character, wargear or special rule - to play against? For me, this would be my Top 10 of most Annoying things to play against.

Jy2's Top Ten Most Hated
1. Re-rollable 2+'s - whether Fortune with a 2+ character, psychic powers or whatever, it is just not fun to play against units with re-rollable 2+ saves (whether armor or cover). It is actually downright stupid, especially when you take into consideration most of these re-rollable 2+'s also can do Look-Out-Sirs.

2. Mindshackle Scarabs - if you ever have a character, you will learn to fear and hate MSS like the plague.

3. Eldrad - a force-multiplier character who is just so good that he is the center of an entire army's strategy. His psychic powers will just kill you and he's got one of the best psychic defenses. He is a bane to all of my psychic armies.

4. Jaws of the World Wolf - the bane of all low-Initiative armies. It's gotten even worse now that it can affect tau crisis suits and necron wraiths+destroyer lords (i.e. jump infantry).

5. And They Shall Know No Fear - very under-rated but a pain to play against. ATSKNF is so good currently that it is annoying. Can't sweep those darn marines, can't break them completely and can't put the fear in them. You can also put an ATSKNF IC with an allied unit (i.e. IG blob squad) to make them annoying as well. ATSKNF only gets worse when combined with Combat Tactics as you can get a poor-man's version of Hit & Run for free.

6. Runes of Warding - one of the reasons why Eldrad is so annoying. I'm a little biased here as I play psychic-heavy armies, but this is the paper to my rock. Does anyone else here have unlimited range psychic defense that not only stops your psychic powers at least 1/2 of the times, but also hurts you 1/3 of the times? Thank goodness no.

7. Tervigons - what's wrong with an ultra-tough unit that just gives your more free scoring units? One of the reasons why you hate to play against tyranids in mission-based scenarios.

8. Iron Arm on Flying Monstrous Creatures - ever played against a T8/9 MC that can't be insta-killed? What if that T8/9 MC was a flying monstrous creature as well? That is one tough and frustrating unit to take down and next turn, he will be in range to threaten your entire army.

9. St. Celestine - just when you think she's down, she gets right back up and starts to kill again. If she was 230+ pts, it wouldn't be so bad....but she's about half that only! Yeah, you just can't keep a good girl down.

10. Doom of Ma'lantai - the ultimate disruption unit in what is primarily a foot-based meta.



So what are your most hated/annoying things to play against? You don't necessarily have to give us a top 10 list, but it may be fun.



ADDED -

As of Feb. 22, the "informal" Top 10 Most Hated as voted by Dakka members looks like this:

Dakka's Top Ten Most Hated
1. Re-rollable 2+ saves

2. Mindshackle Scarabs

3. Jaws of the World Wolf

4. The Necron Air Force

5. Heldrakes

6. Flamers (Chaos Daemons, tied)

6. Grey Knights (in general, tied)

8. Vendettas -- NEW!!!

9. Doom of Ma'lantai

10. Grey Knight Grenades


Dropped Out - Reanimation Protocols

Pretty much everything you said twists me up in a fit. Except Jaws, Eldrad, Runes of Warding, and MSS.

Those never seem to bother me.

I hate MSS.

But at the same time I know if that wasn't there, my units would pretty much sweep the IC in question, considering that Necron lords really aren't built for true combat.

But yeah, most of that list sums it up as well.

1. MSS
2. Valk/Vend(s)
3. Heldrake(s)
4. Wolfguard drop pod combi bomb

Thats a top 4 for me. I don't rank the flyers higher because I don't really mind shooting a lot of twinlinked psycannons into the air.

Add Imotekh and his night fighting shenanigans and Purifiers to jy2's list and you have mine...

Flamers
Screamers
Jaws
Eldrad
Vendettas
Abbadon
Vindicare Assassin

There are a lot of other ones as well.

Imotekh for sure, one of the best examples of awful game design I've ever seen, allowing for a huge potential amount of destruction to an enemy force simply for putting him on the board and not having to worry about LoS, Range, cover, etc, on top of stealing Init on 4+ and controlling an enemy's shooting ability through Nightfight and being ridiculously hard to kill.

Personally I've never actually found MSS to be that annoying, though I've only ever had it used against me while playing IG so it was sort of pointless

My list is short. I hate flamers of Tzeentch. They're a brutal firepower unit that are all but impossible to assault effectively because of how Wall of Death works.

Vendettas: They were not given a cost that reflects their current abilities.

That is all, everything else is acceptable.

I hate Khorne Bezerkers with the MoK right now (because i play my brother's CSM 'Zerker spam army). I run a gunline of tac marines with two CC squads for counter attack, but i don't kill enough of his zerkers to stop him from rolling me over.

Vendetta's are definitely a #1 for me. Everyone at my FLGS who plays guard (ie it feels like half of them sometimes) runs like two or three every game. It is quite un-fun.

Necron Flying Circus isn't a lot of fun to play against either.

Tbh I really hate playing against Grey Knights. Oh yes we can do anything chaos can do but 10x betta cause we serve tha emprahhhhhhh

Helldrakes

Fearless units in cc. They'll no longer get additional wounds when they loose one round of combat. This makes elite armies with a smaller number of models, like DW, less viable in this edition.

Necrons: the army of "oooh! I have a rule for that!"

The one I hate is the Grey Knight power that auto hits every model that Charges them.

 jy2 wrote:

2. Mindshackle Scarabs - if you ever have a character, you will learn to fear and hate MSS like the plague.

Used them, but only faced them once. But as the Necron Lord prepared, ready for a Charge next turn, my Old Zogswort turned him into a Squig

 jy2 wrote:

1. Re-rollable 2+'s - whether Fortune with a 2+ character, psychic powers or whatever, it is just not fun to play against units with re-rollable 2+ saves (whether armor or cover). It is actually downright stupid, especially when you take into consideration most of these re-rollable 2+'s also can do Look-Out-Sirs.
2. Mindshackle Scarabs - if you ever have a character, you will learn to fear and hate MSS like the plague.
3. Eldrad - a force-multiplier character who is just so good that he is the center of an entire army's strategy. His psychic powers will just kill you and he's got one of the best psychic defenses. He is a bane to all of my psychic armies.
4. Jaws of the World Wolf - the bane of all low-Initiative armies. It's gotten even worse now that it can affect tau crisis suits and necron wraiths+destroyer lords (i.e. jump infantry).
5. And They Shall Know No Fear - very under-rated but a pain to play against. ATSKNF is so good currently that it is annoying. Can't sweep those darn marines, can't break them completely and can't put the fear in them. You can also put an ATSKNF IC with an allied unit (i.e. IG blob squad) to make them annoying as well. ATSKNF only gets worse when combined with Combat Tactics as you can get a poor-man's version of Hit & Run for free.
6. Runes of Warding - one of the reasons why Eldrad is so annoying. I'm a little biased here as I play psychic-heavy armies, but this is the paper to my rock. Does anyone else here have unlimited range psychic defense that not only stops your psychic powers at least 1/2 of the times, but also hurts you 1/3 of the times? Thank goodness no.
7. Tervigons - what's wrong with an ultra-tough unit that just gives your more free scoring units? One of the reasons why you hate to play against tyranids in mission-based scenarios.
8. Iron Arm on Flying Monstrous Creatures - ever played against a T8/9 MC that can't be insta-killed? What if that T8/9 MC was a flying monstrous creature as well? That is one tough and frustrating unit to take down and next turn, he will be in range to threaten your entire army.
9. St. Celestine - just when you think she's down, she gets right back up and starts to kill again. If she was 230+ pts, it wouldn't be so bad....but she's about half that only! Yeah, you just can't keep a good girl down.
10. Doom of Ma'lantai - the ultimate disruption unit in what is primarily a foot-based meta.

those and

psycotrope grenades

Max Vendettas

Max Night Scythes

forgewold landraiders that ignore lance+melta rules. "O your army depends on a special rule to deal with AV14? Well now you have to take IG allies. "

MSS...

If they were a one use weapon yeah I could grumble of that but it would not hurt me too much...

...But noooooooo, they have it constantly don't they? IMO perfect example of broken rules, but this is just my opinion...

Also jaws and Warp quake...

MSS for sure! I learned very quickly to ask any necron player which units have MSS. Any of those units I would mark as a "Shoot Only" unit or I would throw gaunts at them.

Jaws is annoying so as a Tyranid player I keep my Tervigons far away and rush my other Psykers in to put the rune priest under shadows of the warp.

As a Nid player I can agree that a lot of people are not fans of Tervigons. T6 W6 Troop choice that spawns more troops. It is also a bit funny to see my opponent's expression after they deal a wound to it and I say "OK, it has 5 wounds left."

I wouldn't be too afraid of a Flyrant with Iron Arm mostly because it still only has a 3+ armor save and no invul save. Jink is OK if you are about to die but forced snap fire next turn is a bummer. Plus grounding tests don't allow armor saves. A Demon Prince with Iron Arm would be a different story.

Those GK grenades...

Psychotrope grenades definitely should get into that list.
One of the worst designed items in the game.

I started to write a list, but nearly everything on it was a necron rule or unit, so I guess just necrons. The amount of rules they have which range from constant minor irritation to OTT broken is just silly. It's like the army was intentionally designed just to troll the rest of the 40k world.

Furioso Dreads. As my opponent inevitably goes into a never ending string of armor penning wounds, my soul dies a little inside.

Scarabs. They are shockingly resilient, and while I can usually bring enough firepower to bear to bring them down (a heavy flamer usually does the trick) they wind up taking too much of my time. Very irritating.

For me it is only one unit...Flamers of Tzeentch. Who thought it was ok to have a unit of jump troops with two wounds, an invul save, and a weapon that kills whole squads in one turn of shooting because they don't allow armour or cover saves, and auto hit if you charge them?

Seriously the most broken unit in all of 40k. Necrons and Eldrad have nothing on these guys. I'm just glad I only have to play against Chaos Space Marines taking one unit of them instead of full armies of Daemons spamming 3 to 6 units.

I can't stand playing Grey Knights, not due to power level (although it's pretty high), but due to complexity level. Every single unit has a million unique snowflake special rules.

Grey Knight Santa Claus characters... I can toss not just one grenade a round no I can toss about 6 different grenades a round and still kill you.

GK power that allows them to kill stuff in HTH. It wouldn't bother me if it were 1 attack per live GK but 1 per enemy is idiocy,

Jaws irks me so much. I played Nids and this one ability would kill me every game(5th edition). Having 4 rune priests that can cast it on my termagants rushing in, draw a line of sight to include my tervigon in the far back. And failing the int test on a 2 or less sucks. One turn I lost 800 points to 4 different jaws hitting 3 tervigons and 2 carnifex, all failing the int test in one turn.

Flamers
Screamers
Yarrick ( i smashed him over the head 3 times with a PF in a game against a mate and up he gets every time )
The Masque
Fateweaver
My dice ( they hate me so much )

Did anyone mentions Dante's mask of "I'm so scary I affect even organisms that have never heard of me"?

Anything that flies.

MSS, ESPECIALLY when your opponent doesn't bloody tell you. That thing is so stupid.
I hate big IG blobs that are getting buffed with atsknf from a rune priest that is casting prescience and rocking cover saves in the open.
I hate the wolf guard with the plasma melta combi combos in a drop pod.

Alright. There's a lot of dislikes of particular units, special rules or wargear in this game. I think I'm going to set up a poll to get a better gauge of the top 10 most vile, most hated, most annoying "things" in this game.

Roadkill Zombie wrote:
For me it is only one unit...Flamers of Tzeentch. Who thought it was ok to have a unit of jump troops with two wounds, an invul save, and a weapon that kills whole squads in one turn of shooting because they don't allow armour or cover saves, and auto hit if you charge them?

Seriously the most broken unit in all of 40k. Necrons and Eldrad have nothing on these guys. I'm just glad I only have to play against Chaos Space Marines taking one unit of them instead of full armies of Daemons spamming 3 to 6 units.

BTW, just wanted to point something out. Flamers are annoying, that's for sure, but they aren't troops. They're still nasty buggers that I wouldn't want to see on a good day, but thank goodness they aren't scoring as well.

BTW, I once played against a daemon army with 44 flamers!

Jaws / Long Fangs

Dark Eldar Beast-star (double annoyance-points for adding Eldrad)

Heldrake (especially now that he flames 360 all around)

The most annoying/hated thing for me has to be I'll be Back/We'll Be Back/Reanimation Protocols/etc.

Something about the Necron models getting right back up really irks me. Always has!

In fact, my first regular opponent when I very first started playing back in 2000 was a Necron player using the old pre-codex list (along with those old, cool metal models - my personal fav being the old style destroyers). So it's been many, many years of being annoyed at that cursed rule

If it's a Necron it's broken. Point blank fact.

Grey Knights are up there, but they at least they are killable.

Flamers
Draigo
Flamers
GK Grenades
Flamers
Fateweaver

I don't have any myself, but everyone seem's to truly hate my Epidemius, from the chaos daemons. Nurgling swarm's getting 2+ poison and ignore armour, are just cruel xD

The Space wolves codex

Jaws- This one power's presence in the metagame pretty much destroys the usefulness of a large number of units and army builds across multiple books. In the current meta, its the one power that is still superior to anything in the new edition's uber powers. Bitch and moan about nid stuff all you want (LOL), but remember that thanks to Jaws, an even smaller amount of a mostly crappy book is viable.

Halucination/Invisibility- These powers are ones that if you roll them, effectively make the game damn near unwinnable for the opponent. The entire Telepathy discipline is arguably one of the worst design decisions in the game, because either you roll one of those powers and EZmode your way to victory, or you roll the other largely pointless abilities and your psycher is basically an overpriced sgt.

Flamers- Make the templates not work with Overwatch and they might almost be fair. The ability to Overwatch with them pretty much makes them hobby wreckers on par with Jaws, unless you are allying GKs for Warp Rift, but then....

Warp Rift- Holy hell who though this was a good idea? Completely dicks over several army builds thanks to being able to combat squad carpet the table with it. If this power is to exist at all, it either needs to be centered on the squad leader or be confined to the jump infantry guys. Its just like Telepathy Discipline in that either it does absolutely nothing in the game or it results in the other guy wanting to punch a nun after the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Warp Angels wrote:
The Space wolves codex

And yeah, as a Xenos player, this times one million.....

Funny how the OP's list is a laundry list of xenos stuff that SM players moan and groan about, because yeah things like MSS are comparable to the Coward Shield and tons of AP4 no cover save allowed stuff xenos have to live with...

Heldrakes and Dreadknights. Frakking annoying units.

 Warp Angels wrote:
The Space wolves codex

This too. even gameplay mechanics aside, reading that book made me hate Space Wolves more than anything I'd read 40k related aside from the GK codex which came out 2 years later

Fateweaver still irks me to no end. Rerollable 3++, flying, a 12" bubble of rerollable saves, and the ability to use three psychic powers per turn on three separate targets without having to even test for them. Was the author who came up with these rules high when creating the Fateweaver entry?

I used to hate playing against the Avatar. It would totally shutdown my melta and flamer lists.

Every 'Nid player who loves their big gribblies should hate Skulltaker. He, by himself, can kill a fully decked out squad of 3 Carnifexes with slightly above average rolls. No other model in the game can solo a trio of Carni's in a single round of combat.

In my old 40k circle, Flamers of Tzeentch were hated more than anything else-I obliterated a friend's DA army a few weeks before the SS FAQ in a matter of minutes. This was also an army he placed in the top 10 tables in the 40k 'Ard Boyz (forgot the actual title, as I've never done those tourneys) in LA about 5-6 years ago.

I have to give my own units that people have/should hate the most, as I don't actually hate fighting anything on the table. Haven't found anything in 40k to be broken by the people I used to play against.

Ok....poll added. I've included most of the stuff mentioned several times in this thread as well as some that I thought was annoying as well.

Later, when we get a few more votes, I will compile a Top 10 Most Hated list from all the posters here on dakka.

Grey Knights, 1k battle Draigo with 5 paladins, w/banner, w/ hammerhand. Im tired of this. . .

Boss Grot Punt wrote:
Grey Knights, 1k battle Draigo with 5 paladins, w/banner, w/ hammerhand. Im tired of this. . .

Lol...I once played against Draigo and 10 paladins at 1K!!! His other troop choice was 1 soladin (single paladin) who just hid for practically most of the game. BTW, we played on a 4'x4' table so basically the paladin psycannons could reach almost the entire table.

I only won because his deathstar failed 1 morale test and ran off the board!

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Every 'Nid player who loves their big gribblies should hate Skulltaker. He, by himself, can kill a fully decked out squad of 3 Carnifexes with slightly above average rolls. No other model in the game can solo a trio of Carni's in a single round of combat.

A soultrap/huskblade archon could, with only slightly above average rolls if he's already killed an IC or MC, and laughably easy if he's killed two already.

Necron Reanimation Protocols get's my vote. Nothing is more demoralizing than pouring a bucket-load of dice into a squad of 10, killing 9 and watching your opponent stand 8 back up.

Re-rollable saves in general irritate me, even if it's only a 6+. It adds a bunch of useless dice rolling to the game, and makes certain units damned near unkillable.

Anything with a board-wide debuff is generally awful to play against (Imotekh, Runes of Warding). In my opinion, no debuff should have a board-wide effect unless it's limited to only one turn (and even then....)

Vendettas are some of the cheapest and most effective anti-flier (and anti-tank, for that matter) in the game, and laughably easy to fix (either increase their base cost by at least 30 points, or else make lascannons be upgrades that need to be paid for).

Jaws. As a Necron/Ork player, it should be evident why I hate this power.

Not specifically mentioned, but I despise Drop Pods in general. The fact that they pretty much ignore mishaps from terrain and models is ridiculously good, and for 35 points it's a steal.

I generally hate how Fliers seem to be either insanely good (Doom Scythe, Vendetta, Helldrake) or else laughably sub-par (Storm Talon, Nephilim Jetfighter, Dark Eldar flier), and yes, this is coming from a Necron player. I wish there were a middle ground here.

Allied Guardsmen get special mention, as with the right attached IC they can be downright nasty (Azrael, Rune Priests, pretty much anything with ATSKNF).

Thinking about it I really hate playing against Tyranids and orks. Its just eurghhhh I killed 10 of you how many more are there, but nids are worse oh heres 3 preggers nids now im gonna spawn out more gaunts. If tyranid players are willing to do this thye shouldnt cry like little ****** when a Imperial player allies in GK for some awesome sauce tyranid powning

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
If it's a Necron it's broken. Point blank fact.

Ummm, my Flayed Ones would like to have a word with you about that.

As a Daemon player, I think GK's are the worst thing to have happened to 40k in a good long while.

Not only do they get every possible advantage plus the kitchen sink thrown in for good measure with things like Warp Quake, Daemonbane, psyk-outs, psycho 'nades, Warp Quake, 'Winning-Flame' (poor Orks & Tyranids know how sutpidly OTT this is too), SC's with 'remove from play' powers that get insane vs us, Warp Quake, Banishers, Truesilver Armour...
Did I mention Warp Quake?! On upto 9 squads in any single army... That can then Combat Squad!

Because me not even being allowed to put a single model on the table is all good and totally balanced apparently.

I've yet to face domination by Helldrake, but just from the doom and gloom I hear on the forums, I suspect afterward, I'll be holding guardians in my hands, clutched to my chest, while taking a shower in the fetal position with my clothes on. I hate the sound of a flier passing over my army, popping a transport, and then flaming whatever comes out of it with its butt-flame.
Nor have I felt the sting of mind-shackle scarabs personally, but I've seen them take on a Squiggoth, making it confused, and it hurt itself to death in its own confusion. I don't like the idea of a single-digit pointed model assaulting my farseer and forcing him to perform a self-lobotomy with his spear.
On the contrary, while it might be sucky to fight against, I like the idea of a 2+ rerollable unit, mainly because it feels good to kill those units. It gives the feeling of a badass on the field to be avoided, which, really, 40k is absolutely littered with. We're practically tripping over Angrons and Lilleths and so on and so forth.

As of Feb. 20, the "informal" Top 10 Most Hated looks like this:

1. Re-rollable 2+ saves

2. Mindshackle Scarabs

3. Heldrakes

4. The Necron Air Force

5. Flamers (Chaos Daemons)

6. Grey Knights (in general, tied for 6th)

6. Grey Knight Grenades (tied for 6th)

8. Jaws of the World Wolf (tied for 8th)

9. Doom of Ma'lantai (tied for 8th)

10. Necrons (in general)

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Every 'Nid player who loves their big gribblies should hate Skulltaker. He, by himself, can kill a fully decked out squad of 3 Carnifexes with slightly above average rolls. No other model in the game can solo a trio of Carni's in a single round of combat.

A soultrap/huskblade archon could, with only slightly above average rolls if he's already killed an IC or MC, and laughably easy if he's killed two already.

BTW, Tyranid MC's with Iron Arm don't care (at least not about Skulltaker) assuming the soultrap/huskblade causes ID.

 Brock79 wrote:
Necron Reanimation Protocols get's my vote. Nothing is more demoralizing than pouring a bucket-load of dice into a squad of 10, killing 9 and watching your opponent stand 8 back up.

Tell me about it. I had one game where my Destroyer Lord with Res Orb got back up 4-5 times!!! My opponent must have been pissed!

Experiment 626 wrote:
As a Daemon player, I think GK's are the worst thing to have happened to 40k in a good long while.

Not only do they get every possible advantage plus the kitchen sink thrown in for good measure with things like Warp Quake, Daemonbane, psyk-outs, psycho 'nades, Warp Quake, 'Winning-Flame' (poor Orks & Tyranids know how sutpidly OTT this is too), SC's with 'remove from play' powers that get insane vs us, Warp Quake, Banishers, Truesilver Armour...
Did I mention Warp Quake?! On upto 9 squads in any single army... That can then Combat Squad!

Because me not even being allowed to put a single model on the table is all good and totally balanced apparently.

Yeah, I probably would have just said "Pass" if a GK player were to tailor his list against my daemons.

But honestly, other than striker-S5-stormbolter-warpquake-spam, daemons can and will kill the grey knights. That's just how powerful their power build (Tzeentch) is.

Lord_Of_Morthan wrote:
I've yet to face domination by Helldrake, but just from the doom and gloom I hear on the forums, I suspect afterward, I'll be holding guardians in my hands, clutched to my chest, while taking a shower in the fetal position with my clothes on. I hate the sound of a flier passing over my army, popping a transport, and then flaming whatever comes out of it with its butt-flame.
Nor have I felt the sting of mind-shackle scarabs personally, but I've seen them take on a Squiggoth, making it confused, and it hurt itself to death in its own confusion. I don't like the idea of a single-digit pointed model assaulting my farseer and forcing him to perform a self-lobotomy with his spear.
On the contrary, while it might be sucky to fight against, I like the idea of a 2+ rerollable unit, mainly because it feels good to kill those units. It gives the feeling of a badass on the field to be avoided, which, really, 40k is absolutely littered with. We're practically tripping over Angrons and Lilleths and so on and so forth.

Honestly, heldrakes are at their most annoying against MEQ (Marine Equivalent) armies. Against many of the Xenos armies (and guards), they're really not as big a deal.

Then again, most of the "Most Annoying Things" in this thread are situational against certain opponents.

MSS-Creates so much rage

Captaintyrius wrote:
Thinking about it I really hate playing against Tyranids and orks. Its just eurghhhh I killed 10 of you how many more are there, but nids are worse oh heres 3 preggers nids now im gonna spawn out more gaunts. If tyranid players are willing to do this thye shouldnt cry like little ****** when a Imperial player allies in GK for some awesome sauce tyranid powning

So you're complaining about Horde builds or Nidzilla builds?

I'm curious because my model count is typically under a normal Space Marine list (I run 28 models starting on the board and average spawning another 20-30 or so).

I've never gotten past the Doom's 3-up invuln with ID weapons

 ChiliPowderKeg wrote:
I've never gotten past the Doom's 3-up invuln with ID weapons

IG 70pt IG platoon command squads with 4 meltaguns are beautiful at this job.

 ChiliPowderKeg wrote:
I've never gotten past the Doom's 3-up invuln with ID weapons

I've never lost Doom to normal shooting or CC. It's always to ID weapons.

Which means I'm over excited when I roll a 1 on the Biomancy table.

Dark Angels, I just hate them...

Phanixis wrote:
Fateweaver still irks me to no end. Rerollable 3++, flying, a 12" bubble of rerollable saves, and the ability to use three psychic powers per turn on three separate targets without having to even test for them. Was the author who came up with these rules high when creating the Fateweaver entry?

Hopefully this new daemons codex will solve the Flamer/Fateweaver gak out there.

I think the 40k rules need a bit of simplifying in general. So many things in the current edition are just sillyness for the sake of sillyness.

Almost everything on that list is the reason I've been getting burnt out on 40k.

It feels less like a game and more like a "whose gimmick is the best" everytime I've played lately.

If the rumors I've been hearing about the upcoming daemons codex are true, I may well quit for a while.

It's just not much fun when I can look at my list and my opponent's list and immediately know who's going to win the match. Players with "good codexes" have to intentionally hold their lists back or get called for cheese (and they'll often get called cheesy even if their list is tame) and people with weaker codexes are limited to a few select builds to stay competitive, that are usually no fun to play against.

Out of all of those things on the list that I hate the most though, that would have to go to space wolves. They're not as bad around here as they used to be, but when I first started playing, almost everyone at my store played them. They all spammed long fangs, they all spammed rune priests, and the all spammed razorbacks. It wasn't fun to play against whatsoever, and got boring extremely quickly. Space wolves almost made me quit before I even had a 1,000pts worth of IG.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
It's just not much fun when I can look at my list and my opponent's list and immediately know who's going to win the match. Players with "good codexes" have to intentionally hold their lists back or get called for cheese (and they'll often get called cheesy even if their list is tame) and people with weaker codexes are limited to a few select builds to stay competitive, that are usually no fun to play against.

I haven't found this to be the case. I've been using an army that I consider less than super-competitive for a while now (Space Marines with Tau allies), and I've been doing quite well and having fun games to boot.

TBH none of the listed ones. I haven't faced most of them though, but with poison iron arm is nothing, no psykers to Eldrad whiffs and Heldrake AP3 is wasted on my units. All my guys are in transports, so jaws and Doom are useless, Vendettas I haven't faced so no comment, ATSKNF, just kill the whole unit. Imotekh I was supposed to face a while ago but I wasn't that scared really, as night fighting actually helps me. Most of the others I haven't faced, including Grey Knights nades.

What I truly fear is autocannons and assault cannons. /shudder

Dunno if it counts, but I hate playing against Righteous Zeal... which is pretty much what I have to do every game. RZ used to be an advantage with drawbacks, now it's just a drawback.

ATSKNF is my peeve.

No drawbacks, huge buff, might as well have written 'ignores morale rules.'

MSS is next, I don't like abilities that make you lose control of your own dudes with no drawbacks for the necron himself.

Phanixis wrote:
Fateweaver still irks me to no end. Rerollable 3++, flying, a 12" bubble of rerollable saves, and the ability to use three psychic powers per turn on three separate targets without having to even test for them. Was the author who came up with these rules high when creating the Fateweaver entry?

Alessio wrote Codex: Daemons.

And you do realise that we just got to spend an entire edition being the game's worst army;
- No anti-tank beyond single shot average BS3 24"/S8/ap1. (or else hitting things on 6's, because that's totally viable?!)
- A primarily assault-based army that has to always Deep Strike.
- Having a 33% chance to be screwed over by our own deployment rules.
- Over-costed to outright useless Troops.
- Being forced to put up with a highly popular codex that outright kicks us in the junk repeatedly to the point it has a built-in auto-win button.

Fateweaver was about the only thing making us even playable in 5th. He also costs 333pts to put on the table, making him one of the most expensive characters in the game! (he damn well better be a good buy for that price tag!)
Not to mention, the GK codex even took that one glimer of hope away from us through 15pts Banishers who nullified Fatey's re-rolls... (because the odds weren't quite stacked against us enough it seems. )

Sure Flamers are gross right now. But we've suffered as the game's outright worst army long enough, so give us our barely 8 months of competitive glory god damnit!

< Taken by the void dragon. >

As of the morning of Feb. 21, the "informal" Top 10 Most Hated looks like this:

1. Re-rollable 2+ saves

2. Mindshackle Scarabs

3. The Necron Air Force

4. Jaws of the World Wolf

5. Flamers (Chaos Daemons)

6. Heldrakes (tied)

6. Doom of Ma'lantai (tied)

6. Grey Knights (in general, tied)

9. Grey Knight Grenades

10. Reanimation Protocols -- NEW!!!


Dropped Out - Necrons (in general)

Are people really still upset about Doom of Ma'lantai? Didn't GW FAQ that you get cover saves from it? Besides, at the end of the turn, it's just a zoanthrope. Throw enough str 8 at it and it will die. Similarly, if you play vehicles against a nid army, you have a pretty good advantage unless you're Eldar/Dark Eldar, who still has a significant advantage (Dark Eldar moreso because of Venomspam BS.)

Why is this tied with HueHueDrakes?

 bibblles wrote:
I think the 40k rules need a bit of simplifying in general. So many things in the current edition are just sillyness for the sake of sillyness.

It's more like sillyness due to bad writing, editing and playtesting. You know, the whole QC (Quality control) shebang....

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Almost everything on that list is the reason I've been getting burnt out on 40k.

It feels less like a game and more like a "whose gimmick is the best" everytime I've played lately.

If the rumors I've been hearing about the upcoming daemons codex are true, I may well quit for a while.

It's just not much fun when I can look at my list and my opponent's list and immediately know who's going to win the match. Players with "good codexes" have to intentionally hold their lists back or get called for cheese (and they'll often get called cheesy even if their list is tame) and people with weaker codexes are limited to a few select builds to stay competitive, that are usually no fun to play against.

Out of all of those things on the list that I hate the most though, that would have to go to space wolves. They're not as bad around here as they used to be, but when I first started playing, almost everyone at my store played them. They all spammed long fangs, they all spammed rune priests, and the all spammed razorbacks. It wasn't fun to play against whatsoever, and got boring extremely quickly. Space wolves almost made me quit before I even had a 1,000pts worth of IG.

That's sad to hear. Hope you stay. There's lots of "gimmicks" but not everyone uses it. I think a lot more players play casually rather than to exploit those "gimmicks". Alas, they do exist and I'd be lying if I tell you that all you have to do is to just avoid them (the more competitive ones). All I ask is that you give them a shot (daemons or whatever) in a game before giving up just after listening to some rumours (or even after reading the new dex).

Painbiro wrote:
TBH none of the listed ones. I haven't faced most of them though, but with poison iron arm is nothing, no psykers to Eldrad whiffs and Heldrake AP3 is wasted on my units. All my guys are in transports, so jaws and Doom are useless, Vendettas I haven't faced so no comment, ATSKNF, just kill the whole unit. Imotekh I was supposed to face a while ago but I wasn't that scared really, as night fighting actually helps me. Most of the others I haven't faced, including Grey Knights nades.

What I truly fear is autocannons and assault cannons. /shudder

Yeah, not all of these "things" are universally hated. Non-psychic armies could really care less about Runes of Warding. Character-less non-combat armies (i.e. Imperial Guards, Tau) aren't really phased by Mindshackle Scarabs nor GK grenades. Heldrakes are more scary to MEQ players than anything else. And who cares about Invisibility when you have weapons that ignore cover. However, these "things" do affect the a large part (or sometimes even the majority) of the 40k world and as such, they are vilified and cursed whenever an opponent has to go up against them. Such is this rock-paper-scissors game that we play. Running marines? Better be concerned about heldrakes. Running tyranids, space wolves or the grey knights? You're going to hate Eldrad and the accursed Runes of Warding. You think being mechanized will protect you against Jaws or the Doom? Think again when you go up against Necron flyer-spam or Tzeentch flamer-screamer-spam.

Even autocannons/assault cannons aren't universally feared (hello green tide and horde armies), though they are feared enough by most of the armies in the 40K world.

Experiment 626 wrote:
Alessio wrote Codex: Daemons.

And you do realise that we just got to spend an entire edition being the game's worst army;
- No anti-tank beyond single shot average BS3 24"/S8/ap1. (or else hitting things on 6's, because that's totally viable?!)
- A primarily assault-based army that has to always Deep Strike.
- Having a 33% chance to be screwed over by our own deployment rules.
- Over-costed to outright useless Troops.
- Being forced to put up with a highly popular codex that outright kicks us in the junk repeatedly to the point it has a built-in auto-win button.

Fateweaver was about the only thing making us even playable in 5th. He also costs 333pts to put on the table, making him one of the most expensive characters in the game! (he damn well better be a good buy for that price tag!)
Not to mention, the GK codex even took that one glimer of hope away from us through 15pts Banishers who nullified Fatey's re-rolls... (because the odds weren't quite stacked against us enough it seems. )

Sure Flamers are gross right now. But we've suffered as the game's outright worst army long enough, so give us our barely 8 months of competitive glory god damnit!

Just to give you some perspective, the previous iteration of the grey knights - the daemonhunters - was possibly the worst or one of the worse codex for many, many years before they finally got updated. I'd say they were over-compensated, but maybe good things come to all those who wait...patiently.

Lord_Of_Morthan wrote:
Are people really still upset about Doom of Ma'lantai? Didn't GW FAQ that you get cover saves from it? Besides, at the end of the turn, it's just a zoanthrope. Throw enough str 8 at it and it will die. Similarly, if you play vehicles against a nid army, you have a pretty good advantage unless you're Eldar/Dark Eldar, who still has a significant advantage (Dark Eldar moreso because of Venomspam BS.)

Why is this tied with HueHueDrakes?

Part of it is the fact that people roll an 18, a 17, and a 16 for the leadership tests once in a while.
Even with cover saves that's a lot of wounds. And it assumes you're in cover.
Add in the fact that 1/6 times Doom can have Eternal Warrior...

Lord_Of_Morthan wrote:
Are people really still upset about Doom of Ma'lantai? Didn't GW FAQ that you get cover saves from it? Besides, at the end of the turn, it's just a zoanthrope. Throw enough str 8 at it and it will die. Similarly, if you play vehicles against a nid army, you have a pretty good advantage unless you're Eldar/Dark Eldar, who still has a significant advantage (Dark Eldar moreso because of Venomspam BS.)

Why is this tied with HueHueDrakes?

Probably because players nowadays tend to run more foot and less mech. That's just how the meta is currently. Yeah, he can be countered if you know how to play against him, but sometimes you really can't help it (maybe you don't spam S8 or most of your Doom-insta-killing units are dead of locked in assault by the time he comes in from reserves). I currently run the Doom and he appears to be much more effective in this edition. He's even determined the outcome of some of the games!

@JY2: Keep in mind though, the Grey Knights under the old Daemonhunters codex were never, ever intended to be a 'pure knight' stand alone army. GW's intention was that you would *always* include elements from the rest of the codex and/or the built-in allies system.

So honestly, I have no sympathy for GK's players who refused to take more than just their overly shiny super marines. They made a self-imposed choice to limit their unit selection in the exact same way that any other heavily themed forced, and should have understood that going in.
For example, you don't hear Deathwing players whine that they can only field 15-20 models while also lacking serious anti-tank. They accept that drawback because they understand that playing pure Deathwing means ignoring 2/3rds of the DA codex!

What the Grey Knight codex has done to every single Daemon player on the other hand is criminal.

< Taken by the void dragon. >

Experiment 626 wrote:

What the Grey Knight codex has done to every single Daemon player on the other hand is criminal.

It's not worse than list tailoring heavily against any other army, really. The fact that you think Banishers, who no sane person ever takes when not list tailoring (and even then, almost no one takes them) is cheese is a bit silly TBH.

Yeah, Banishers aren't really that bad. Null Zone, on the other hand, should maybe be on the list... and I say that as a Space Marine player! Null Zone's effects are simply too much for some armies to deal with.

I voted Imhotek, primarily because my group plays a lot of big games, and when you get over 2000pts, he just becomes ridiculous. Constant night fighting means little happens, except your gak gets lightning'd with no cover saves, and it takes forever to resolve. I had one guy insist on using him in an Apoc game. Fething slowed.

In my opinion, he's the most broken of a long line of broken Wardian characters. I hated draigo when I first started playing, but learned over time he's just not that big a deal compared to lightning and night fighting everywhere, always, uncounterable.

I'd put flamers second, just deep strike in, and everything around them dies. There's no counter, save for the other guy rolling poorly, and lacks any kind of skill or talent to use, much like imhotek. At least draigowing, even in the heydeys of its power, required some basic skill to use right.

everything after that seems trivial, either rarely comming up or being too situational to really annoy me.

 Kingsley wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
It's just not much fun when I can look at my list and my opponent's list and immediately know who's going to win the match. Players with "good codexes" have to intentionally hold their lists back or get called for cheese (and they'll often get called cheesy even if their list is tame) and people with weaker codexes are limited to a few select builds to stay competitive, that are usually no fun to play against.

I haven't found this to be the case. I've been using an army that I consider less than super-competitive for a while now (Space Marines with Tau allies), and I've been doing quite well and having fun games to boot.

Where I'm at it can be. Not always, but it happens. I should've been more clear about that. It's mostly the situations where you look at the other guy's list and see something like max screamers/flamers or something.

I think I just need a break from it for a bit. I know lots of guys get that way at times.

If you guys seriously don't get bugged by most of the things on that list though you're a bigger man than me. Maybe not to the level of "I really need to find a new game" bothered, but if you don't at least raise your eyebrow at some of the stuff you see you must be pretty jaded.

I think the most annoying unit/special rule is the one you don't see coming. For instance, my vote goes to Epidemius and his fethin' tally, I played a game where I didn't know how it worked because my opponent didn't explain it that well...I felt stupid for murdering his cultists like that afterwards. The worst part was that I was trying out dual stormravens (I know, I know), and could have easily used them to blow him away from his little corner. But by the time I realized this and had killed him, his tally-maxed plague marine allies had killed almost all my terminators. Lesson learned, but I hate Epidemius.

< Taken by the void dragon. >

Is it just me or are 80% of the grievances here attributable to a single Author?

< Taken by the void dragon. >

As already touched upon, most of these gimmicky pains in the backside are relatively recent. The Jaws of the World Wolf BS started a continuing trend of sucking the sense and fun out 40K. And people actually think the game is getting better?

As a necron player - the most annoying thing in 40k to play against are PEOPLE WHO WHINE ABOUT NECRONS.

Seriously ..... Enough already. The dex is here, it's popular, it's better then yours, it's not going away ..... Deal with it.

Your argument just dissintergrated in the first 4 words. It shows you are biased and your judgement is impeeded...

But you cannot say that necrons arn't overpowered. Mindshackle scarabs is nothing short of cheating in my store and necron air is despisesed by all save the imperial air chalalry. In short, necrons smell.

Although things arn't looking good for my 2++ re-rollable halie-star at the moment...

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Your argument just dissintergrated in the first 4 words. It shows you are biased and your judgement is impeeded...

But you cannot say that necrons arn't overpowered. Mindshackle scarabs is nothing short of cheating in my store and necron air is despisesed by all save the imperial air chalalry. In short, necrons smell.

Although things arn't looking good for my 2++ re-rollable halie-star at the moment...

2++ rerollable and JoTWW have been around forever. They aren't all that game breaking, just annoying.

Necron Flying Bakery, on the other hand...

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Your argument just dissintergrated in the first 4 words. It shows you are biased and your judgement is impeeded...

But you cannot say that necrons arn't overpowered. Mindshackle scarabs is nothing short of cheating in my store and necron air is despisesed by all save the imperial air chalalry. In short, necrons smell.

Although things arn't looking good for my 2++ re-rollable halie-star at the moment...

Oh please! This whole thread is based on bias and personal opinion. When you have options to choose from like ENTIRE ARMIES in general, why isn't Players who complain anout my army an option? lol

*written in a non-confrontational/joking around tone

Phanixis wrote:
Fateweaver still irks me to no end. Rerollable 3++, flying, a 12" bubble of rerollable saves, and the ability to use three psychic powers per turn on three separate targets without having to even test for them. Was the author who came up with these rules high when creating the Fateweaver entry?

His bubble is only 6 inches. Someone may be trying to screw the rules with you

Evileyes wrote:

Phanixis wrote:
Fateweaver still irks me to no end. Rerollable 3++, flying, a 12" bubble of rerollable saves, and the ability to use three psychic powers per turn on three separate targets without having to even test for them. Was the author who came up with these rules high when creating the Fateweaver entry?

His bubble is only 6 inches. Someone may be trying to screw the rules with you

His bubble is a 6" radius, thus a full 12" diameter bubble in total.

Still, it's pretty sad to complain about the only thing that made Daemons even semi-viable in an edition that all but neutered them into the ground and then some once Derp Quake showed up...

Not everyone has warp quake you know?

I voted helldrake, but I also have no love for ravenwing right now.

something to be said for playing an opponent who makes you feel outnumbered and outgunned when you play orks....

I have to be honest.

I dont hate Heldrakes in general.
I just feel the faq that said their weapon is a turret, so 360 LOS, was very unessesary and takes away the only real weakness i see in flyers, witch is shooting forward so placement of model is important.
By making it a turret you just effectivly take away the only weakness it had.

Didnt really think about it that much before that but felt it a very unessesary change.

/Ogard

 Ogard wrote:
I have to be honest.

I dont hate Heldrakes in general.
I just feel the faq that said their weapon is a turret, so 360 LOS, was very unessesary and takes away the only real weakness i see in flyers, witch is shooting forward so placement of model is important.
By making it a turret you just effectivly take away the only weakness it had.

Didnt really think about it that much before that but felt it a very unessesary change.

/Ogard

+1

Another day, a few more changes. Let me update the rankings.

As of the of Feb. 22, the "informal" Top 10 Most Hated looks like this:


1. Re-rollable 2+ saves

2. Mindshackle Scarabs

3. Jaws of the World Wolf

4. The Necron Air Force

5. Heldrakes

6. Flamers (Chaos Daemons, tied)

6. Grey Knights (in general, tied)

8. Vendettas -- NEW!!!

9. Doom of Ma'lantai

10. Grey Knight Grenades


Dropped Out - Reanimation Protocols

For the record, MSS are WAY worse the 2++ re-rollable. MSS are a cheap upgrade that makes ANY good character, and ANY model with a fancy weapon not just unusable but a liability to you!

2++re-rollable is hard to get, on only one model or avoidable. If its on haliequins get a flamer to the side without a 2+. If its on a model, shoot around it. I just see MSS as a lot worse.

Too many options. Concequentaly we know naff all about what people actually want.

My biggest beef isn't up there and it is "Eternal Warrior." Nothing more frustrating then slamming lysander or abbaddon with the most powerful weaponry in the galaxy and having them just take a wound.

Jaws of the World Wolf, and Runes of warding for me, as they hurt my Nids so much.

MSS are annoying, but you'll rarely see it on more than 1-2 models, and as a Necron player I know they are brutal, but it's pretty important. I'd agree it needs a points cost increase, but I do think the whining about it is a little overblown.

I also think that as more armies get updated, and Skyfire/Air becomes more common, Airforces won't be as troublesome as they used to be. It's just going to be bloody until then.

Re-rollable 2+ saves are really obnoxious to me as well.

I have a buddy who plays eldrad. Every single time I even want to try to use my librarian..... perils of the freaking warp. Then he turns around, and annihilates like 10 of my guys with some bs power. Then he knocks my marines in the dirt with his staff, and owns up the field! 4 turns in its just eldrad and some avengers.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
For the record, MSS are WAY worse the 2++ re-rollable. MSS are a cheap upgrade that makes ANY good character, and ANY model with a fancy weapon not just unusable but a liability to you!

2++re-rollable is hard to get, on only one model or avoidable. If its on haliequins get a flamer to the side without a 2+. If its on a model, shoot around it. I just see MSS as a lot worse.

I'd have to disagree here.

MSS is circumstantial depending on what units or armies you get into combat with. Also, MSS is not for sure. First off, you have to fail a LD test (about 50% chance for a LD10 character). Secondly, savvy generals can mitigate it somewhat by throwing multiple models into base with the MSS model. MSS would then have to randomize which model in base that it affects (unless you are in a challenge). In short, MSS is not a sure thing.

Re-rollable 2+'s is almost always a sure thing (unless eldar is going up against Space Wolves). It's actually really hard to bypass because most armies don't really have the mobility to shoot a deldar deathstar at whatever angle that is their weakness, especially if they have multiple IC's with 2+ saves (Vect/Baron and an eldar phoenix lord...and Eldrad). Moreover, certain units like the seer council will almost always get a 2+ cover due to Jink, with re-rollable 3+ armour and 4++ invuln's as backup. That unit is just nuts to shoot down! Don't even try!

 aapch45 wrote:
I have a buddy who plays eldrad. Every single time I even want to try to use my librarian..... perils of the freaking warp. Then he turns around, and annihilates like 10 of my guys with some bs power. Then he knocks my marines in the dirt with his staff, and owns up the field! 4 turns in its just eldrad and some avengers.

Yeah, I hate Eldrad with a passion. Most of the armies I play currently - Space Wolves, Grey Knights and Tyranids - just get screwed royally by him and his Runes of Warding.

And the bad thing is...I can never seem to kill Eldrad!