Quick question
Mordrak and his ghost knights form a ghost knight unit can a Libby with teleporting homer join his unit and deepstrike together turn one and thus not scatter?

I asking due to a match I faced against grey knights
Mordrak 5 ghost knights and a Libby deepstriked as one unit thus the libby did not scatter turn one due to mordraks rule
turn two summons 2 squads of terminators and one unit of paladins
turn three tabled

Reading the grey knight codex it seems ok but maybe a precise ruling could be provided? Since fluff wise i assumed mordrak only was with his ghost knights and a IC could not join them?

An IC cannot join Mordrak himself, but can join his Ghost Knights. So yes this is a legal tactic.

 Happyjew wrote:
An IC cannot join Mordrak himself...

Why not?

The rules indicate that you can join mordrak even if he is not with his ghost knights. This is due to the fact that Mordrak is not a unit that "Always consists of a single model" P. 39

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
An IC cannot join Mordrak himself...

Why not?

The rules indicate that you can join mordrak even if he is not with his ghost knights. This is due to the fact that Mordrak is not a unit that "Always consists of a single model" P. 39

exactly,

the same way and IC can join the sergant of a normal squad (even if the rest of the squad is wiped out) and IC can join mordrak,

that his unit can consist of multiple models also cements it "join ability"

I'm more confused on how the libby summoned 3 units. You can only ever (unless you have special permission) cast a particular power one time.

turn two summons 2 squads of terminators and one unit of paladins

You can only summon one unit per turn.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
An IC cannot join Mordrak himself...

Why not?

The rules indicate that you can join mordrak even if he is not with his ghost knights. This is due to the fact that Mordrak is not a unit that "Always consists of a single model" P. 39

I know Mordrak does not have the IC rule, and isn't his unit composition 1?

 Happyjew wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
An IC cannot join Mordrak himself...

Why not?

The rules indicate that you can join mordrak even if he is not with his ghost knights. This is due to the fact that Mordrak is not a unit that "Always consists of a single model" P. 39

I know Mordrak does not have the IC rule, and isn't his unit composition 1?

Yes. If you allow Mordrak to be joined without his Ghost Knights (because according to C:GK once you buy the Knights it's a unit of Ghost Knights with Mordrak as an upgrade character) you should also allow a Hive Tyrant to be joined while solo.

Yes, his unit composition is 1... but because he can be accompanied by Ghost Knights, he is not a unit that is always composed of 1 model.

Is it possible that he meant "Brought on from reserve" I'm wondering...

 insaniak wrote:
Yes, his unit composition is 1... but because he can be accompanied by Ghost Knights, he is not a unit that is always composed of 1 model.

So a Hive Tyrant is also a unit that is not always composed of one model?

He is never a multi-model unit named Mordrak. He's a Ghost Knight unit that contains Mordrak.
He is never a multi-model unit named Hive Tyrant. He's a Tyrant Guard unit that contains a Hive Tyrant.

So it should be faq'd to clear the air?

Nope. There is no air that needs to be cleared tbh.

Also summoning doesn't work with a teleport homer as this too appeared to be part of the tactic.

So only 1 unit can be summoned and it scatters.

However any number of units could potentially arrive from reserve and teleport in thus gaining benefit of the homer.

 insaniak wrote:
Yes, his unit composition is 1... but because he can be accompanied by Ghost Knights, he is not a unit that is always composed of 1 model.

Same could be said of a Hive Tyrant as he can join a Tyrant Guard Squad?

There is no mention of a teleport homer :S,

As well a hive tyrant cannot be joined by another IC since he's a monstrous creature so that's invalid

 Mesphilhiem wrote:
Quick question
Mordrak and his ghost knights form a ghost knight unit can a Libby with teleporting homer join his unit and deepstrike together turn one and thus not scatter?

I asking due to a match I faced against grey knights
Mordrak 5 ghost knights and a Libby deepstriked as one unit thus the libby did not scatter turn one due to mordraks rule
turn two summons 2 squads of terminators and one unit of paladins
turn three tabled

Reading the grey knight codex it seems ok but maybe a precise ruling could be provided? Since fluff wise i assumed mordrak only was with his ghost knights and a IC could not join them?

I can only assume he meant the GK player got tabled, what exactly are two units of termies and one pally squad going to achieve shooting wise?

 Mesphilhiem wrote:
Quick question
Mordrak and his ghost knights form a ghost knight unit can a Libby with teleporting homer join his unit and deepstrike together turn one and thus not scatter?

I asking due to a match I faced against grey knights
Mordrak 5 ghost knights and a Libby deepstriked as one unit thus the libby did not scatter turn one due to mordraks rule
turn two summons 2 squads of terminators and one unit of paladins

1. The teleport homer can only be used if it started that turn on the table.
2. You can only Summon one unit per turn.
3. Yes, the Libby can join the Ghost Knights. It's a nice way to use Warp Rift safely.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 wyomingfox wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
Yes, his unit composition is 1... but because he can be accompanied by Ghost Knights, he is not a unit that is always composed of 1 model.

Same could be said of a Hive Tyrant as he can join a Tyrant Guard Squad?

No. A tyrant guard squad is a separate unit. Mordrak and his optional Ghost Knights are one unit.

 Mannahnin wrote:

 Mesphilhiem wrote:
Quick question
Mordrak and his ghost knights form a ghost knight unit can a Libby with teleporting homer join his unit and deepstrike together turn one and thus not scatter?

I asking due to a match I faced against grey knights
Mordrak 5 ghost knights and a Libby deepstriked as one unit thus the libby did not scatter turn one due to mordraks rule
turn two summons 2 squads of terminators and one unit of paladins

1. The teleport homer can only be used if it started that turn on the table.
2. You can only Summon one unit per turn.
3. Yes, the Libby can join the Ghost Knights. It's a nice way to use Warp Rift safely.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 wyomingfox wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
Yes, his unit composition is 1... but because he can be accompanied by Ghost Knights, he is not a unit that is always composed of 1 model.

Same could be said of a Hive Tyrant as he can join a Tyrant Guard Squad?

No. A tyrant guard squad is a separate unit. Mordrak and his optional Ghost Knights are one unit.

And Ghostly Bodyguard specifies that when the Ghost Knights are killed, Mordrak reverts to being a single-model unit in his own right.

rigeld2 wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
Yes, his unit composition is 1... but because he can be accompanied by Ghost Knights, he is not a unit that is always composed of 1 model.

So a Hive Tyrant is also a unit that is not always composed of one model?

He is never a multi-model unit named Mordrak. He's a Ghost Knight unit that contains Mordrak.
He is never a multi-model unit named Hive Tyrant. He's a Tyrant Guard unit that contains a Hive Tyrant.

absurd,

his unit can have a coposition of 1 mordrak 5 ghost knights,

just like a paladin squad has a composition of 1 paladin and cant be joined by IC's too right?


composition can change with options (like extra models) which mordrak, and paladins have,




the restriction is on single model ONLY units, quotes vehicles and monstrouse creatures specifically,

that is not restricting units consisting of a single model, like a solo paladin, the last member of a normal unit, mordrak, ect

easysauce wrote:
his unit can have a coposition of 1 mordrak 5 ghost knights,

just like a paladin squad has a composition of 1 paladin and cant be joined by IC's too right?


composition can change with options (like extra models) which mordrak, and paladins have,

the restriction is on single model ONLY units, quotes vehicles and monstrouse creatures specifically,

that is not restricting units consisting of a single model, like a solo paladin, the last member of a normal unit, mordrak, ect

Mordrak is always a unit that consists of a single model. If you buy a Ghost Knight squad, he becomes an upgrade character for the Ghost Knight Squad. Once all the Ghost Knights are slain, he reverts to being a single-model unit.

Do you really need to make giant block quotes, then only add one line of text?

The fact that the Mordrak unit may be purchased as a unit comprised of more than one model means it definitionally does not always consist of a single model. Mephiston, or a Hive Tyrant, are always units of a single model, as they have no option to purchase additional models as part of their unit.

Sorry on the large block quote. It's been fixed. The Mordrak unit consists of Mordrak and only Mordrak. The Ghost Knight unit consists of however many Ghost Knights plus Mordrak. As long as the Ghost Knight unit is alive, Mordrak is a normal member of that unit, not the Mordrak unit. And as I pointed out the rule that allows you to buy the Ghost knights even specifies that afterwards he reverts to being a single-model unit.

Sure he reverts to being a single model unit; so does an attack bike if you kill the other attack bikes in the squad. But being single model unit is not synonymous with being a unit which is always composed of one model. The latter is based on how many models can be purchased in the unit entry.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Pardon- I'm reversing my position on re-reading Mordrak's entry in the GK army list. Yes, he is listed as Unit Composition: 1, and the Ghost Knights are listed separately, so if you don't take them he does function the same as (e.g.) Mephiston. My bad; I misremembered.

Alright, so Mordrak's unit can only be joined by IC so long as some Ghosts are alive.

What happens if all the ghosts die and there is a Libby attached to the squad? Do Libby and Mordrak suddenly become two units?

Also, can Thawn, after he is resurrected, be joined by an IC?

Mordrak's unit [Mordrak] can never be joined by an IC. Ghost Knights can be joined by an IC. What happens if an IC is joined to the Ghost Knights and all except the IC and Mordrak are killed? The same thing that happens if a Prime and Tyrant are are attached to a unit of Tyrant Guard and all the Guard are killed.

 Happyjew wrote:
And Ghostly Bodyguard specifies that when the Ghost Knights are killed, Mordrak reverts to being a single-model unit in his own right.

Right. And in order to 'revert to being a single model unit' he would have to have not been a single model unit for a time before that... Which kind of proves that he is not always a unit of a single model...

Right as he was an upgrade to a Ghost Knight unit.

Ghost Knights and Mordrak are two completely different units. Mordrak is either a single-model unit (Unit=Mordrak) or as an upgrade character (basically a "Sergeant") for a Ghost Knight unit (Unit=Ghost Knight). This is a similar scenario to Hive Tyrant with Tyrant Guard.

Ub3rb3n wrote:
As well a hive tyrant cannot be joined by another IC since he's a monstrous creature so that's invalid

That's not actually a rule, FYI.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 insaniak wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
And Ghostly Bodyguard specifies that when the Ghost Knights are killed, Mordrak reverts to being a single-model unit in his own right.

Right. And in order to 'revert to being a single model unit' he would have to have not been a single model unit for a time before that... Which kind of proves that he is not always a unit of a single model...

When the Ghost Knights exist, is the unit called "Mordrak" with a Unit Composition of X Ghost Knights and 1 Mordrak, or is it a unit called "Ghost Knights" with an upgrade character named Mordrak?

The latter means that "Mordrak" is never more than a single model unit.

Do not forget Mordrak also has the chance to spawn ghost knights when he is wounded making it more possible that he is not always a single model unit.

What is the unit composition of the unit named Mordrak?

The spawned Knights have no different rules from the purchased Knights.
Meaning he becomes a unit of Ghost Knights with Mordrak as the "sarge".

Is mordrak always solo?

If not he can be joined by IC's.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Is mordrak always solo?

If not he can be joined by IC's.

Right, exactly like a Hive Tyrant.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Is mordrak always solo?

If not he can be joined by IC's.

Right, exactly like a Hive Tyrant.

Exactly like the HT yes.

 Mesphilhiem wrote:
Quick question
Mordrak and his ghost knights form a ghost knight unit can a Libby with teleporting homer join his unit and deepstrike together turn one and thus not scatter?

I asking due to a match I faced against grey knights
Mordrak 5 ghost knights and a Libby deepstriked as one unit thus the libby did not scatter turn one due to mordraks rule
turn two summons 2 squads of terminators and one unit of paladins
turn three tabled

Reading the grey knight codex it seems ok but maybe a precise ruling could be provided? Since fluff wise i assumed mordrak only was with his ghost knights and a IC could not join them?

By the timing of events, I'm guessing the three squads of TDA arrived from reserves rather than the power "The Summoning". If this is the case, then yes, Mordrak and his Ghosts can be joined by a Librarian with a Teleport Homer for a turn 1, no-scatter deep strike followed by the no-scatter arrival of TDA units from reserve on turn 2. Personally, I've been using this tactic since the codex came out.

The mechanics of what occurred are as follows:

Mordrak is never a single mode unit, as he has the ability to spawn Ghost Knights regardless of whether or not Ghost Knights were purchased beforehand. As such, Mordrak may always be joined by Independent Characters like the GK Librarian. Mordrak's special rule First to the Fray allows him and any unit he accompanies that deep strike to arrive on turn 1 without scatter, which can be used to transport an IC (in this case a Librarian) along him and any Ghost Knights Mordrak has with him at the beginning on the game.

If Mordrak survives and the Librarian survive turn 1, Mordrak can use his psychic power Psychic Communion to modify the reserve rolls for any of the remain reserved units, such as the two squads and GKT and the squad of Paladins, allowing for a turn 2 arrival of all three units. The Librarian, having been on the table previous to turn 2, may be used by the arriving TDA units for a no-scatter deep strike if placed within 6" of the Librarian.

By "getting tabled", I'll assume Mordrak and company's arrival was in a spot that threw off the OP's strategy, while the arrival of reinforcements proved to be too much to deal with allowing for a massacre of the OP's army. it’s a tactic that I like to call "Shock and Awe". Really, a Ghostwing player can only get this to go off as described on an unprepared opponent, as anyone expecting the tactic will choose to go first (if they can), and annihilate Mordrak's squad before turn 1 is completed, at which point they will have tabled the Ghostwing. kind of a Rock=Paper-Scissors sort of thing.

On the other hand, if the Librarian did indeed use to The Summoning to move three units to him with the Teleport Homer preventing scatter, then the OP’s opponent cheated, since the Librarian cannot manifest the same power more than once per turn (BRB, pg 67) even if the Librarian is Mastery Level 3 (able to manifest up to three powers per player turn). It is still debatable as to whether or not a Teleport Homer would affect the arriving TDA as the TDA are arriving via deep strike and are on the list of units that may benefit from the Homer; unfortunately, few people agree on being “summoned” counting as “teleportation”.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Mordrak is never a single mode unit, as he has the ability to spawn Ghost Knights regardless of whether or not Ghost Knights were purchased beforehand.

So you can show me where in the codex the unit named Mordrak has the option to take more than 1 model? Mordrak is not a single model unit in the same way a Hie tyrant is. They are both bought as a single model but can be joined to a specific unit.

Happyjew please show me the entry for the Mordrak + Ghostknights unit that is separate to the Mordrak unit. Please tell me the what FoC slot it is purchased from.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Happyjew please show me the entry for the Mordrak + Ghostknights unit that is separate to the Mordrak unit. Please tell me the what FoC slot it is purchased from.

You cannot take Ghost Knights without taking Mordrak. you can take Mordrak without taking Ghost Knights. It is exactly the same as a Hive Tyrant and Tyrant Guard. One unlocks the other.

That would be true if the ghost knights had their own separate entry and you could have a unit not containing Mordrak. You know love the Tyrant Guard have and can...

Ghostknights are an upgrade to the Mordrak unit, we know this as they are listed as such.

 FlingitNow wrote:
That would be true if the ghost knights had their own separate entry and you could have a unit not containing Mordrak. You know love the Tyrant Guard have and can...

Ghostknights are an upgrade to the Mordrak unit, we know this as they are listed as such.

You have that backwards, Mordrak is an upgrade character for the Ghost Knights.

 FlingitNow wrote:
That would be true if the ghost knights had their own separate entry and you could have a unit not containing Mordrak. You know love the Tyrant Guard have and can...

Ghostknights are an upgrade to the Mordrak unit, we know this as they are listed as such.

Page 82 C:GK gives them an army list entry exactly like the Tyrant Guard. And Tyrant Guard are listed as an upgrade on Hive Tyrants.

It's like they're exactly the same thing...

 Happyjew wrote:
What is the unit composition of the unit named Mordrak?

what is the composition of the unit called paladins?

1 paladin

so you are saying IC's cannot join paladin squads?


the tyranid comparison is very flawed, and no they are not identical, ghost knights appear under mordraks unit as an upgrade to it,

tyrant guard are a unit you can take on its own,

you CAN take a unit of tyrant guard, with no tyrant,

you can NOT take any ghost knights, without mordrak,

Don't the Ghost knights HAVE to be deployed with Mordrak?

Whereas the Tyrant Guard don't have to be deployed with the HT?

easysauce wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
What is the unit composition of the unit named Mordrak?

what is the composition of the unit called paladins?

1 paladin

so you are saying IC's cannot join paladin squads?

Can a Paladin Squad unit buy more models for the Paladin Squad unit?

Can the Mordrak unit buy more models for the Mordrak unit?

 Happyjew wrote:

easysauce wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
What is the unit composition of the unit named Mordrak?

what is the composition of the unit called paladins?

1 paladin

so you are saying IC's cannot join paladin squads?

Can a Paladin Squad unit buy more models for the Paladin Squad unit?

Can the Mordrak unit buy more models for the Mordrak unit?

yes, you can buy ghost knight models for mordrak at 4opts a piece

sometimes mordrak is a single unit model,

sometimes not,

it has to ALWAYS be a single model to be ineligable for IC's to join (also vehicles and mostrous creatures are NAMEd specifically as non joinable, so that further invalidates the tyranid comparison)

easysauce wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

easysauce wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
What is the unit composition of the unit named Mordrak?

what is the composition of the unit called paladins?

1 paladin

so you are saying IC's cannot join paladin squads?

Can a Paladin Squad unit buy more models for the Paladin Squad unit?

Can the Mordrak unit buy more models for the Mordrak unit?

yes, you can buy ghost knight models for mordrak at 4opts a piece

And they are part of the Mordrak unit? No. They are part of the Ghost Knight unit.

actually they are ONE unit, according to GK codex pg 50

"mordrak and the ghost knights form a unit, with mordrak acting as an upgrade character"



that he is even able to "revert" back to being a single model unit means he is not "always" a single model unit,

the requirement to be ineligible for IC's to join is that it must "ALWAYS" consist of a single model, not sometimes

Which would make Mordrak part of the Ghost Knight squad, not the other way around.

I'm not arguing that Mordrak is or isn't always a single model unit.
I'm arguing that there isn't a difference between Mordrak and a Hive Tyrant. As long as you treat them consistently everything is fine.

A Prime cannot join a HT because the HT is not an IC and while he can join another unit (Tyrant Guard), his unit never consists of more than one model.

The question of whether or not a Libby can join a solo Mordrak is a little more cloudy because where the Shieldwall language specifies that the HT joins the Tyrant Guard, Ghostly Bodyguard states that "Mordrak and the Ghost Knights form a unit". This seems to indicate that they form a new "Mordrak and friends" unit as opposed to him simply joining the Ghost Knights or the Ghost Knits joining his unit. However, later on in the rule, they continually refer to it as "Mordrak's unit" and say he reverts back to being a single model unit if all the ghost knight'as are killed...which muddies the picture of what's really going on.

If Mordrak and the Ghost Knights form an altogether new unit - a libby may not join a solo Mordrak.

If Mordrak join the Ghost Knights - a libby may not join a solo Mordrak.

If the Ghost Knights join Mordrak - then his unit does not always consist of a single model, and the libby may join a solo Mordrak.

Other than the fact that they keep using the language "Mordrak's unit" (which is probably done for ease of reading), I see no indication that the Knights join Mordrak, and most likely a new unit altogether is formed.

 Maelstrom808 wrote:
A Prime cannot join a HT because the HT is not an IC and while he can join another unit (Tyrant Guard), his unit never consists of more than one model.

The question of whether or not a Libby can join a solo Mordrak is a little more cloudy because where the Shieldwall language specifies that the HT joins the Tyrant Guard, Ghostly Bodyguard states that "Mordrak and the Ghost Knights form a unit". This seems to indicate that they form a new "Mordrak and friends" unit as opposed to him simply joining the Ghost Knights or the Ghost Knits joining his unit. However, later on in the rule, they continually refer to it as "Mordrak's unit" and say he reverts back to being a single model unit if all the ghost knight'as are killed...which muddies the picture of what's really going on.

If Mordrak and the Ghost Knights form an altogether new unit - a libby may not join a solo Mordrak.

If Mordrak join the Ghost Knights - a libby may not join a solo Mordrak.

If the Ghost Knights join Mordrak - then his unit does not always consist of a single model, and the libby may join a solo Mordrak.

Other than the fact that they keep using the language "Mordrak's unit" (which is probably done for ease of reading), I see no indication that the Knights join Mordrak, and most likely a new unit altogether is formed.

Mordrak's unit composition consists of Mordrak. Nothing else. There is no option to add more models to the unit.

Ghost Knights (which are unlocked by Mordrak) consist of 5 Ghost Knights and Mordrak is an upgrade character for that unit.

 Happyjew wrote:


Ghost Knights (which are unlocked by Mordrak) consist of 5 Ghost Knights and Mordrak is an upgrade character for that unit.

Except, that's not what it says. You buy Mordrak, you buy a unit of Ghost Knights, and they "form a unit" in which Mordrak is an upgrade character. At no point does it specify that Mordrak joins the Knights (although I agree that that is the intention).

An army that includes Mordrak can also include a unit of Ghost Knights. Mordrak and the Ghost Knights form a unit with Mordrak acting as an upgrade character...

Obviously Mordrak is not an upgrade for the Mordrak unit, and I don't see any options to add Ghost Knights to the Mordrak unit. I do see a Ghost Knight unit in the Army List.

 Maelstrom808 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:


Ghost Knights (which are unlocked by Mordrak) consist of 5 Ghost Knights and Mordrak is an upgrade character for that unit.

Except, that's not what it says. You buy Mordrak, you buy a unit of Ghost Knights, and they "form a unit" in which Mordrak is an upgrade character. At no point does it specify that Mordrak joins the Knights (although I agree that that is the intention).

Since they form a unit it's either a unit of Mordrak where Mordrak is an upgrade character, or a unit of Ghost Knights with Mordrak as an upgrade character. You can't have 2 separate units "form a unit" and still be separate.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Maelstrom808 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:


Ghost Knights (which are unlocked by Mordrak) consist of 5 Ghost Knights and Mordrak is an upgrade character for that unit.

Except, that's not what it says. You buy Mordrak, you buy a unit of Ghost Knights, and they "form a unit" in which Mordrak is an upgrade character. At no point does it specify that Mordrak joins the Knights (although I agree that that is the intention).

Since they form a unit it's either a unit of Mordrak where Mordrak is an upgrade character, or a unit of Ghost Knights with Mordrak as an upgrade character. You can't have 2 separate units "form a unit" and still be separate.

With the exception to remaining separate units, that's pretty much what it is telling you to do. By saying they form a unit, it means that the "Mordrak unit" ceases to exist, as well as the "Ghost Knight" unit ceases to exist. They are both replaced by an unnamed unit consisting of Ghost Knights and Mordrak (as an upgrade character). They should have said that Mordrak joins the Ghost Knights and becomes an upgrade character, but they didn't.

... Which as far as this discussion goes is an irrelevant distinction.

Is the unit Mordrak? If not, Mordrak is still a unit that only ever exists as a single model.

Absolutely agree...which I mentioned earlier. My responses were more in response to the whole "he's just like a hive tyrant" thing. Overall the end result is the same, but they actual mechanics are quite different (and far more convoluted).

The rule for IC's say "Independent Characters can join other units. They cannot... join units that always consist of a single model" P. 39

Mordrak is not always in a unit that consists of a single model, therefore IC's can join him.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The rule for IC's say "Independent Characters can join other units. They cannot... join units that always consist of a single model" P. 39

Mordrak is not always in a unit that consists of a single model, therefore IC's can join him.

Mordrak (the unit) is a unit that always consists of 1 model. Mordrak (the model) does not always exist within a unit that only consists of 1 model.

 Happyjew wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The rule for IC's say "Independent Characters can join other units. They cannot... join units that always consist of a single model" P. 39

Mordrak is not always in a unit that consists of a single model, therefore IC's can join him.

Mordrak (the unit) is a unit that always consists of 1 model. Mordrak (the model) does not always exist within a unit that only consists of 1 model.

There is no unit named mordrak, only a model named mordrak, and he is never in a "unit that always consist of a single model"

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The rule for IC's say "Independent Characters can join other units. They cannot... join units that always consist of a single model" P. 39

Mordrak is not always in a unit that consists of a single model, therefore IC's can join him.

Mordrak (the unit) is a unit that always consists of 1 model. Mordrak (the model) does not always exist within a unit that only consists of 1 model.

There is no unit named mordrak, only a model named mordrak, and he is never in a "unit that always consist of a single model"

Apologies, you are right. There is no unit named mordrak. There is however a unit named Grand Master Mordrak. Of course there is no model named mordrak either.

 Happyjew wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The rule for IC's say "Independent Characters can join other units. They cannot... join units that always consist of a single model" P. 39

Mordrak is not always in a unit that consists of a single model, therefore IC's can join him.

Mordrak (the unit) is a unit that always consists of 1 model. Mordrak (the model) does not always exist within a unit that only consists of 1 model.

There is no unit named mordrak, only a model named mordrak, and he is never in a "unit that always consist of a single model"

Apologies, you are right. There is no unit named mordrak. There is however a unit named Grand Master Mordrak. Of course there is no model named mordrak either.

and his unit does not "always consist of a single model"

 DeathReaper wrote:
The rule for IC's say "Independent Characters can join other units. They cannot... join units that always consist of a single model" P. 39

Mordrak is not always in a unit that consists of a single model, therefore IC's can join him.

The bolded, while a correct statement, is not what the IC rule requires.

Grand Master Mordrak, as a unit, is only ever a single model. He can be a member of another unit, but that's not what the IC rule asks.
It asks for "units that (don't) always consist of a single model".
Does the unit Grand Master Mordrak ever consist of more than one model?

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The rule for IC's say "Independent Characters can join other units. They cannot... join units that always consist of a single model" P. 39

Mordrak is not always in a unit that consists of a single model, therefore IC's can join him.

Mordrak (the unit) is a unit that always consists of 1 model. Mordrak (the model) does not always exist within a unit that only consists of 1 model.

There is no unit named mordrak, only a model named mordrak, and he is never in a "unit that always consist of a single model"

Apologies, you are right. There is no unit named mordrak. There is however a unit named Grand Master Mordrak. Of course there is no model named mordrak either.

and his unit does not "always consist of a single model"

Yes it does. I see no options to add more models to the unit entitled "Grand Master Mordrak". There is a Ghost Knight unit that is unlocked when you purchase the Grand Master Mordrak unit, at which point the Grand Master Mordrak unit ceases to exist as a unit in its own right until such a time that the Ghost Knight unit is no more.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The rule for IC's say "Independent Characters can join other units. They cannot... join units that always consist of a single model" P. 39

Mordrak is not always in a unit that consists of a single model, therefore IC's can join him.

The bolded, while a correct statement, is not what the IC rule requires.

Mordrak, as a unit, is only ever a single model. He can be a member of another unit, but that's not what the IC rule asks.
It asks for "units that (don't) always consist of a single model".
Does the unit Mordrak ever consist of more than one model?

Yes his unit does sometimes consist of more than one model.

"Mordrak and the ghost knights form A unit, with Mordrak acting as an upgrade character until such point as the ghost knights are slain, at which point he reverts to being a single-model unit in his own right." P. 40 GK Codex.

Mordrak and the ghost knights form a single unit of multiple models.

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The rule for IC's say "Independent Characters can join other units. They cannot... join units that always consist of a single model" P. 39

Mordrak is not always in a unit that consists of a single model, therefore IC's can join him.

The bolded, while a correct statement, is not what the IC rule requires.

Mordrak, as a unit, is only ever a single model. He can be a member of another unit, but that's not what the IC rule asks.
It asks for "units that (don't) always consist of a single model".
Does the unit Mordrak ever consist of more than one model?

Yes his unit does sometimes consist of more than one model.

"Mordrak and the ghost knights form A unit, with Mordrak acting as an upgrade character until such point as the ghost knights are slain, at which point he reverts to being a single-model unit in his own right." P. 40 GK Codex.

Mordrak and the ghost knights form a single unit of multiple models.

Mordrak (the model) can be part of another unit. However you still have not shown where the Grand Master Mordrak unit entry allows for more models to be added to that specific unit.

 Happyjew wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The rule for IC's say "Independent Characters can join other units. They cannot... join units that always consist of a single model" P. 39

Mordrak is not always in a unit that consists of a single model, therefore IC's can join him.

The bolded, while a correct statement, is not what the IC rule requires.

Mordrak, as a unit, is only ever a single model. He can be a member of another unit, but that's not what the IC rule asks.
It asks for "units that (don't) always consist of a single model".
Does the unit Mordrak ever consist of more than one model?

Yes his unit does sometimes consist of more than one model.

"Mordrak and the ghost knights form A unit, with Mordrak acting as an upgrade character until such point as the ghost knights are slain, at which point he reverts to being a single-model unit in his own right." P. 40 GK Codex.

Mordrak and the ghost knights form a single unit of multiple models.

Mordrak (the model) can be part of another unit. However you still have not shown where the Grand Master Mordrak unit entry allows for more models to be added to that specific unit.

Mordrak and the ghost knights form a single unit, as the quote proves.

And what is the name of this mysterious unit?

 Happyjew wrote:
And what is the name of this mysterious unit?

Not sure as it does not say, but Mordrak is an upgrade character for the unit, and therefore Mordraks unit (the unit Mordrak is a part of) is not in a unit that "always consists of a single model"

"Mordrak and the ghost knights form A unit, with Mordrak acting as an upgrade character " P. 40 GK Codex.

I have no idea what any of you are talking about, but I know how the damn rule works.

The rule is, an IC can join to any unit that does not "always consist of single model". (page 39)

So they can join a unit of paladins, and they could join a single paladin. They could not join a Dreadknight, though. Nor a vindicare assassin.

This also means they can join a carnifex (because they can come in units), but they could not join mawlock.

Don't use the hive tyrant as an example, it's a bad example and confusing.

In any case, Mordrak is a charcter, but he is not an Idependant Character. He can buy other models (ghost knights) as an upgrade, making 1 unit of multiple models. Thus, neither he nor the whole unit is a unit that "always consist of single model". SO you may attach an IC to the unit freely. You could even attach an IC to Mordrak, by himself. Can't attach Mordrak to another unit, though.

There, solved, it's very black and white.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
And what is the name of this mysterious unit?

Not sure as it does not say, but Mordrak is an upgrade character for the unit, and therefore Mordraks unit (the unit Mordrak is a part of) is not in a unit that "always consists of a single model"

"Mordrak and the ghost knights form A unit, with Mordrak acting as an upgrade character " P. 40 GK Codex.

First sentence of that rule, "a unit of Ghost Knights".
Is a unit of Ghost Knights the same unit as Grand Master Mordrak?

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
And what is the name of this mysterious unit?

Not sure as it does not say, but Mordrak is an upgrade character for the unit, and therefore Mordraks unit (the unit Mordrak is a part of) is not in a unit that "always consists of a single model"

"Mordrak and the ghost knights form A unit, with Mordrak acting as an upgrade character " P. 40 GK Codex.

First sentence of that rule, "a unit of Ghost Knights".
Is a unit of Ghost Knights the same unit as Grand Master Mordrak?

Yeah, that's what I was talkign about when I said I didn't have any idea what you all were talking about. Yes, it is the same unit. It's one unit. But why does that matter? What they ain't is a "model that always consist of single model". So, an IC can join them just fine.

The rule is super, super clear. What the heck are you arguing about?

Sir_Prometheus wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
And what is the name of this mysterious unit?

Not sure as it does not say, but Mordrak is an upgrade character for the unit, and therefore Mordraks unit (the unit Mordrak is a part of) is not in a unit that "always consists of a single model"

"Mordrak and the ghost knights form A unit, with Mordrak acting as an upgrade character " P. 40 GK Codex.

First sentence of that rule, "a unit of Ghost Knights".
Is a unit of Ghost Knights the same unit as Grand Master Mordrak?

Yeah, that's what I was talkign about when I said I didn't have any idea what you all were talking about. Yes, it is the same unit. It's one unit. But why does that matter? What they ain't is a "model that always consist of single model". So, an IC can join them just fine.

The rule is super, super clear. What the heck are you arguing about?

So the unit of Ghost Knights is also a unit of Grand Master Mordrak? That's what you just said...

rigeld2 wrote:

Sir_Prometheus wrote:
Yeah, that's what I was talkign about when I said I didn't have any idea what you all were talking about. Yes, it is the same unit. It's one unit. But why does that matter? What they ain't is a "model that always consist of single model". So, an IC can join them just fine.

The rule is super, super clear. What the heck are you arguing about?

So the unit of Ghost Knights is also a unit of Grand Master Mordrak? That's what you just said...

If they are both on the table, then yes as "Mordrak and the ghost knights form A unit" P. 40 GK Codex. (A unit means they form a single unit).

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Sir_Prometheus wrote:
Yeah, that's what I was talkign about when I said I didn't have any idea what you all were talking about. Yes, it is the same unit. It's one unit. But why does that matter? What they ain't is a "model that always consist of single model". So, an IC can join them just fine.

The rule is super, super clear. What the heck are you arguing about?

So the unit of Ghost Knights is also a unit of Grand Master Mordrak? That's what you just said...

If they are both on the table, then yes as "Mordrak and the ghost knights form A unit" P. 40 GK Codex. (A unit means they form a single unit).

Except "(a)n army that includes Grand Master Mordrak can also include a unit of Ghost Knights." That doesn't say it's a unit of Grand Master Mordrak, that says its a unit of Ghost Knights. Oh, that's on page 40 of the GK codex in case you missed it.

So the unit of Ghost Knights is also a unit of Grand Master Mordrak? That's what you just said...

*sigh*That's not what I said, but they are one unit.

More importantly, WTF DOES IT MATTER?!?

rigeld2 wrote:
Except "(a)n army that includes Grand Master Mordrak can also include a unit of Ghost Knights." That doesn't say it's a unit of Grand Master Mordrak, that says its a unit of Ghost Knights. Oh, that's on page 40 of the GK codex in case you missed it.

It says that "Mordrak and the ghost knights form A unit"

So they are a single unit of Mordrak and the ghost knights, and therefore mordrak is not a unit that always consists of a single model, as he has other models in his unit.

pg .40, GK Codex:

Whenever Mordrak suffers an unsaved wound, roll a D3 at the end of the phase. If the result is equal to or greater than the number of Mordrak's remaining wounds. a Ghost Knight appears to defend him. Place a new Ghost Knight within coherency of Mordrak's unit. It join Mordrak's unit to all intents and purposes.

If Mordrak had purchased no Ghost Knights, what is Mordrak's unit?

Mordrak is not 'always a unit consisting of a single model', because throughout the entire game, he has the possibilty to be joined by a ghost knight, whether he purchased them or not. And this comes from his unit profile, not that of a ghost knight, so it functions solely within his ruleset.

Meaning, no matter how you buy him or deploy him, he is always a unit that could consist of more than one model, simply for the Ghostly Bodyguard rule.


Furthermore, it is impossible to have a unit of Ghost Knights without Mordrak. And when you do have them (whether purchased or spawned), his unit is a unit that consists of more than 1 model. So, because when they appear, they must form a unit, and they can appear at any time, whether you bought them or not, Mordrak could never possibly be a unit that consists of only 1 model, ever.

It honestly wouldn't matter if he could spontaneously generate ghost knights or not. He is clearly not a unit that only ever consists of one model. Same as a lone carnifex is not. You can join an alpha warrior to a lone carnifex, because they can form units.

Sir_Prometheus wrote:

So the unit of Ghost Knights is also a unit of Grand Master Mordrak? That's what you just said...

*sigh*That's not what I said, but they are one unit.

More importantly, WTF DOES IT MATTER?!?

Because if it's not a unit of Grand Master Mordrak, then GMM is a unit that only ever consists of one model.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Except "(a)n army that includes Grand Master Mordrak can also include a unit of Ghost Knights." That doesn't say it's a unit of Grand Master Mordrak, that says its a unit of Ghost Knights. Oh, that's on page 40 of the GK codex in case you missed it.

It says that "Mordrak and the ghost knights form A unit"

So they are a single unit of Mordrak and the ghost knights, and therefore mordrak is not a unit that always consists of a single model, as he has other models in his unit.

And that unit is called ... ?
It's absolutely relevant. The first sentence of the rule states that it is a unit of Ghost Knights.
Cite the unit that is named GMM that ever consists of more than one model.

rigeld2 wrote:

Sir_Prometheus wrote:

So the unit of Ghost Knights is also a unit of Grand Master Mordrak? That's what you just said...

*sigh*That's not what I said, but they are one unit.

More importantly, WTF DOES IT MATTER?!?

Because if it's not a unit of Grand Master Mordrak, then GMM is a unit that only ever consists of one model.

Nope, sorry. I've now gone and read this whole thread, much to my regret. You keep on saying that, but that does not make it so.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Except "(a)n army that includes Grand Master Mordrak can also include a unit of Ghost Knights." That doesn't say it's a unit of Grand Master Mordrak, that says its a unit of Ghost Knights. Oh, that's on page 40 of the GK codex in case you missed it.

It says that "Mordrak and the ghost knights form A unit"

So they are a single unit of Mordrak and the ghost knights, and therefore mordrak is not a unit that always consists of a single model, as he has other models in his unit.

And that unit is called ... ?
It's absolutely relevant. The first sentence of the rule states that it is a unit of Ghost Knights.
Cite the unit that is named GMM that ever consists of more than one model.

"Place a new Ghost Knight within coherency of Mordrak's unit." Page 40 GK Dex.

Mordrak's unit has ghost knights in it, therefore he is never a unit that always consists of a single model.

Thanks puma - that clears up Mordrak for me.

*sigh* I'm sorry, it shouldn't.

Why? Models join Mordrak's unit. Therefore Mordrak's unit does not always consist of a single model.

Not hard to follow. I don't think I missed anyone else saying that.

I follow you. Your argument is invalid.

How is it invalid? Could you explain what you mean instead of being passive aggressively vague?

It does not matter what the name of the unit is. Whether, it's Mordrak, ghost knights, or mordrak and the pointer sisters.

Mordrak is a guy, he can buy the ghosts as an option, and they're a unit. He, the whole unit, everything, is therefore not "always consist of a single model. " that is super freaking obvious, you've been quibbling, and wasting everyone's time.

Sir_Prometheus wrote:
It does not matter what the name of the unit is. Whether, it's Mordrak, ghost knights, or mordrak and the pointer sisters.

Mordrak is a guy, he can buy the ghosts as an option, and they're a unit. He, the whole unit, everything, is therefore not "always consist of a single model. " that is super freaking obvious, you've been quibbling, and wasting everyone's time.

It absolutely matters what the name of the unit is. That's exactly what the IC rule is looking for. Does that unit ever exist as more than one model?
Buying the Ghosts doesn't make a unit of Mordrak, it makes a unit of Ghost Knights - so Mordrak (as a unit) still only ever exists as one model.

I'm not "wasting" anyone's time.

It doesn't, it's an artificial distinction that you were the only one who pretended mattered.

40k doesn't even use formal names in the way you're talking about. Crowe was referred to by his first name in some other rule and people freaked out. It's stupid. GW sometimes just says "that guy".

That's exactly what the IC rule is looking for.

No, actually, specifically it ain't. The IC rule is only for a unit that has the option that has the option to be more than one model. It did not matter what it was called.

rigeld2 wrote:

Sir_Prometheus wrote:
It does not matter what the name of the unit is. Whether, it's Mordrak, ghost knights, or mordrak and the pointer sisters.

Mordrak is a guy, he can buy the ghosts as an option, and they're a unit. He, the whole unit, everything, is therefore not "always consist of a single model. " that is super freaking obvious, you've been quibbling, and wasting everyone's time.

It absolutely matters what the name of the unit is. That's exactly what the IC rule is looking for. Does that unit ever exist as more than one model?
Buying the Ghosts doesn't make a unit of Mordrak, it makes a unit of Ghost Knights - so Mordrak (as a unit) still only ever exists as one model.

I'm not "wasting" anyone's time.

Wait I thought you said:

rigeld2 wrote:
Why? Models join Mordrak's unit. Therefore Mordrak's unit does not always consist of a single model.

Not hard to follow. I don't think I missed anyone else saying that.

Now I am confused on your stance on it.

Sir - actually it does matter

GMM is a unit AND a model. If you buy Mordrak buy himself you have a Unit called "Grand Master Mordrak"

If you buy Ghost Knights with him, then the rules for Ghost Knights states that he forms a unit WITH them, with him acting as an upgrade character. This is a unit of Ghost Knights, which is *not* the same thing as the unit of Grand Master Mordrak

When he spawns models, he becomes if alone again a Unit of Ghost knights (as you are told this is the same as purchasing them initially), and the unit "Grand Master Mordrak" only reappears if all those GHost Knights are killed

Thus, you always have two distinct units: Grand Master Mordrak and Ghost Knights, where GMM is an upgrade character to the Ghost Knights.

The unit "GMM" *only* ever consists of one model; as soon as you add a Ghost Knight that unit "GMM" ceases to exist until such time as all the Ghost Knights are removed.

DR - this is where you are getting mixed up, and I believe Rigeld is correct. You have a single model unit, and a single model that can be subsumed within another unit - the two are the same model, but different Units.

No. You guys are playing games with names, and they do not matter.

Teh ghost knights are an option for Mordrak. They are one unit. They are not one unit if he buys the upgrade, and another if he doesn't. He not even named one thing if he buys the upgrade, and another if he doesn't.

He is what he is. The unit is what it is. The unit often consists of more than one model. That's it.

Seriously, I mean this, you guys are arguing about the stupid, most inconsequential thing.

To address the OP, the tactic would have been perfectly valid if the guy used First To The Fray to deploy Mordrak + Ghost Knights + Librarian on turn one. Then on turn 2 used a psychic power to summon one unit, then used deep strike from reserve to deploy the others, and if the Librarian had a teleport homer they would not have scattered.

Any other scenario means he actually cheated, since he cannot summon more than one unit per turn as per the rules for the psychic power in the codex.

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Sir_Prometheus wrote:
It does not matter what the name of the unit is. Whether, it's Mordrak, ghost knights, or mordrak and the pointer sisters.

Mordrak is a guy, he can buy the ghosts as an option, and they're a unit. He, the whole unit, everything, is therefore not "always consist of a single model. " that is super freaking obvious, you've been quibbling, and wasting everyone's time.

It absolutely matters what the name of the unit is. That's exactly what the IC rule is looking for. Does that unit ever exist as more than one model?
Buying the Ghosts doesn't make a unit of Mordrak, it makes a unit of Ghost Knights - so Mordrak (as a unit) still only ever exists as one model.

I'm not "wasting" anyone's time.

Wait I thought you said:

rigeld2 wrote:
Why? Models join Mordrak's unit. Therefore Mordrak's unit does not always consist of a single model.

Not hard to follow. I don't think I missed anyone else saying that.

Now I am confused on your stance on it.

I was explaining why his statement wasn't enough proof while pumas was.

Sir_Prometheus - then perhaps you shouldnt take part, if you feel this discussion is "stupid"?

It isnt playing around with names, it is pointing out that there are TWO units in question, one of which can be shown to only ever consist of one model. THis has an impact on the rules.

Sir_Prometheus wrote:
No. You guys are playing games with names, and they do not matter.

Teh ghost knights are an option for Mordrak. They are one unit. They are not one unit if he buys the upgrade, and another if he doesn't. He not even named one thing if he buys the upgrade, and another if he doesn't.

He is what he is. The unit is what it is. The unit often consists of more than one model. That's it.

Seriously, I mean this, you guys are arguing about the stupid, most inconsequential thing.

You're using your assumptions to guide you into interpreting the rule.
That's fine - peachy. That's not the best way to determine RAW.

Nos - Mordrak is wandering around, doing his thing. Someone dares to fire a bolt pistol at him and takes a wound off. He gets a Ghost Knight out of it. That Ghost Knight joins Mordrak's unit. So Mordrak's unit does not always consist of a single model.

I thought it was described as the same method as when purchasing - the he forms a unit with the newly arrived knight, so no matter how you do it you always dissolve the GMM unit and form a Ghost Knight unit

It's not. Purchasing them makes a unit of Ghost Knights. Spawned Knights "join Mordrak's unit".

I can't tell if this thread is just trolls being trolls or what...
I see this thread as everyone speaking different languages and yelling at the others that the wall is the color white.

I will concede however, at the end of my movement phase, if there are no Ghost knights on the table for my army, a libby will have to be outside of 2" of Mordrak.

Goat - not true. Ther is a prohibition on *joining* a unit that consists of one model, there is no restriction on *staying joined*

Rigeld - then that works, I thought it operated the same as for purchasing.

The fact there IS a distinction that should be made between the GMM and the Ghost Knight units is an important one though

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Sir_Prometheus - then perhaps you shouldnt take part, if you feel this discussion is "stupid"?

It isnt playing around with names, it is pointing out that there are TWO units in question, one of which can be shown to only ever consist of one model. THis has an impact on the rules.

It's not two units, that's WHY it's stupid.

Sir_Prometheus wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Sir_Prometheus - then perhaps you shouldnt take part, if you feel this discussion is "stupid"?

It isnt playing around with names, it is pointing out that there are TWO units in question, one of which can be shown to only ever consist of one model. THis has an impact on the rules.

It's not two units, that's WHY it's stupid.

Wrong, as has been proven to you.

THere is ONE unit named "Grandmaster Mordrak". If you do not purchase any GhK, THAT is a single unit

If you DO purchase , then there is a unit named "Ghost Knights"

Disagree if you want, but actually follow the tenets of this forum and provide an argument. Serioulsy, your comments of "its stupid" add nothing to the thread, so please dont post if that is all you are going to say.

What a silly argument. Shoot Mordrak in the face with a Melta or a Lascannon. Failing that, charge him with a Power Fist or Thunder Hammer and cave his face in - cheerio entire unit. Then shoot and/or punch the Libby in the groin. Twice.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Sir_Prometheus wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Sir_Prometheus - then perhaps you shouldnt take part, if you feel this discussion is "stupid"?

It isnt playing around with names, it is pointing out that there are TWO units in question, one of which can be shown to only ever consist of one model. THis has an impact on the rules.

It's not two units, that's WHY it's stupid.

Wrong, as has been proven to you.

No.....a bunch of people said some stuff. Very little of it is true.

Mordrak is a character. He is part of a unti. That unit goes by several different names, frankly, but that isn't actually important. It's still just one unit. Which was proven to YOU.

Except that it was dumb. Because dur, it's a unit.

Sigh.

Believe what you want, there are two units, as has been proven. You have yet to give any actual rules otherwise, or shown any ability to argue the point

INstead you just claim everything is dumb. Which is getting boring now.

I getting bored with you saying things are "proven". If they were proven, I wouldn't be arguing with you.

You're arguing, youre not debating. There is a crucial difference

Try the tenets. Actually argue the point, or show failures in others arguments. Your constant rule-less debate-less assertions are not helping anything.

Buy a single Mordrak. What is the unit?
Buy a Mordrak plus 5 GhK. What is the unit?

There are two distinctly named units, which everyone here bar you actually understands. If you disagree further with the proven case, give page and para. Further posts which do not address the argument with actual rules will be considered your concession.

1) They are not distinctly named, the name of the cominbed unit isn't even all that clear (it's mostly calle Mordrak and his Ghost Knights)

2) I don't think the names are particularly material.

Mordrak can add on ghost knights. Thats it.

You haven't proven crap, and you consider whatever you want a concession. This argument is silly, and should stop.

1) Wrong. There is a unit named Mordrak.

There is also a unit named Ghost Knights.

Hell, you are even told that spawned GhK join MORDRAKS unit.

2) You can think that, but that would make you wrong, again. THe name defines the unit

So no, thats "not it" Proven wrong, with actual rules. Again.

This argument is afairly fundamental one, as it shows you dont understand a basic structure of the game.

I disagree with all of it, but wtf does it matter if it's not a unit that can only ever consist of one model? It is CLEARLY not that, so everything else is really just a bunch of noise.

No, it is you failing to understand a basic concept, and failing to once again provide any actual rules

Your opinion is just that, opinion. No rules anywhere to be found.

I understand your basic concept...it's insane. It's unit that is not always a single model. That's it, we're done.

Sir_Prometheus wrote:
I understand your basic concept...it's insane. It's unit that is not always a single model. That's it, we're done.

Which is a unit hat does not always consist of single model, the unit named Grand Master Mordrak, or the unit named Ghost Knights?

 Happyjew wrote:

Sir_Prometheus wrote:
I understand your basic concept...it's insane. It's unit that is not always a single model. That's it, we're done.

Which is a unit hat does not always consist of single model, the unit named Grand Master Mordrak, or the unit named Ghost Knights?

Both actually.

There aren't even two units. Regardless the ghost knights CAN'T exist alone, and mordrak always has the option to add ghosts. There's like 27 ways this your argument doesn't maek sense. THat's why it's stupid. You're really just making stuff up to justify some nutso position.

Sir_Prometheus wrote:
There aren't even two units. Regardless the ghost knights CAN'T exist alone, and mordrak always has the option to add ghosts. There's like 27 ways this your argument doesn't maek sense. THat's why it's stupid. You're really just making stuff up to justify some nutso position.

There are two units. One is called Grand Master Mordrak, its composition is Grand Master Mordrak. No more, no less. One unit is called Ghost Knights it consists of some Ghost Knights (not sure the exact number off hand) and Mordrak. I've never said the Ghost Knights can exist alone, in fact the rules even state that if Mordrak dies, so do all of the Ghost Knights. My argument is that there is a unit called Mordrak which has no options to add models and always exists as a single-model unit, and there is a unit called Ghost Knights (which like Eldar Warloks, Necron Royal Courts, Command Squads, Tyrant Guards, Servitors, etc) require a specific unit to be purchased to be included in your army.

My argument is that there is a unit called Mordrak which has no options to add models and always exists as a single-model unit,

That sir, is a silly idea, and that's being charitable.

It's also blatantly untrue, even within your wholly fictional framework, because Mordrak can add a model if wounded. So it's AT LEAST two kinds of wrong.

Sir_Prometheus wrote:
There aren't even two units. Regardless the ghost knights CAN'T exist alone, and mordrak always has the option to add ghosts. There's like 27 ways this your argument doesn't maek sense. THat's why it's stupid. You're really just making stuff up to justify some nutso position.

Yes there are.

Again, I will take this through with you nice and slowly.

You buy Mordrak by himself. What is the name of the unit you have purchased? A: Grand Master Mordrak
You buy Ghost Knights with Mordrak. What is the name of the unit you have purchased? A: Ghost Knights (because the rules tell you that mordrak is an upgrade character for the unit)

There. Proven, there are two units.

So, please retract your lie, and apologise for your continued inability to argue without insulting people.

Allow me to recommend that all parties heretofore involved in the debate take a break from this thread. Thanks.

Edited by Manchu

Again, if he is wounded and passes the test, a ghost knight appears "and joins Mordrak's unit". So if Mordrak is purchased alone, wounded, and passes the test, Mordrak's unit now consists of 2 models thus he is eligible to be joined even if alone.

And just like the SR/dread thread, the OP has been answered and we're several pages deep in tangential circular discussion.

 Happyjew wrote:
. My argument is that there is a unit called Mordrak which has no options to add models and always exists as a single-model unit.

This is not true, as Mordrak always has a chance to be joined by a ghost knight, even if he did not purchase them, meaning he is never a single model unit.

 puma713 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
. My argument is that there is a unit called Mordrak which has no options to add models and always exists as a single-model unit.

This is not true, as Mordrak always has a chance to be joined by a ghost knight, even if he did not purchase them, meaning he is never a single model unit.

Which I do agree with. I was just pointing out that there are, by definition, 2 units there.

Actually, what is really confusing is this:

Q: Are both Grand Master Mordrak and the Ghost Knights each
worth a Kill Point? (p40)
A: No, upgrade characters do not give additional Kill Points.

I'm in awe. I'm pretty sure this is the first time I've seen people arguing the same side of question, especially over a point that doesn't even matter as both sides that are arguing agree on the only point that does matter. Just, simply, wow.

The upside is, the tactic described by the OP is only legal if the Librarian had Summoned only a single unit of TDA, with the remaining two arriving via deep strike. The tactic is also legal if the Librarian Summons no units of TDA, with all three arriving via deep strike. The only time the tactic is illegal is if all four units were on the table at the start of turn 2 and the Librarian Summoned the GKT and Paladins unit during the same player turn. Which was stated quite a few pages ago.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
I'm in awe. I'm pretty sure this is the first time I've seen people arguing the same side of question, especially over a point that doesn't even matter as both sides that are arguing agree on the only point that does matter. Just, simply, wow.

The upside is, the tactic described by the OP is only legal if the Librarian had Summoned only a single unit of TDA, with the remaining two arriving via deep strike. The tactic is also legal if the Librarian Summons no units of TDA, with all three arriving via deep strike. The only time the tactic is illegal is if all four units were on the table at the start of turn 2 and the Librarian Summoned the GKT and Paladins unit during the same player turn. Which was stated quite a few pages ago.

SJ

Looking back I missed when the "Mordrak takes a wound he gets a free Ghost Knight" thing came up. I'm curious though, does unit composition and options matter in regards to whether or not a unit always consists of a single model?

 Happyjew wrote:
Looking back I missed when the "Mordrak takes a wound he gets a free Ghost Knight" thing came up. I'm curious though, does unit composition and options matter in regards to whether or not a unit always consists of a single model?

Sort of. Unit composition and options only matter as long as the context you are looking for can be found. In the case of Grand Master Mordrak, he is only a single-model unit when Ghost Knights are not present, which means he is never a unit consisting of only a single model since he can spawn Ghost Knights that automatically join him to form a unit consisting of more than one model. He also has the option to purchase additional Ghost Knights, to which he counts as an upgrade character. Since the context we are looking for to allow an Independent Character to join Grand Master Mordrak can be found in both his special rules and his army list entry, we can safely say that Grand Master Mordrak is eligable to be joined by Independent Characters. If, however, Grand Master Mordrak lacked the Ghostly Bodyguard special rule, his unit would indeed consist of a single model that could only ever be a single model unit, at which point no IC could join him per the Independent Character special rules. Thankfully, Mordrak has his bodyguard special rule.

SJ

Jeffersonian - it wasnt arguing the same side, just pointing out that you have to work out each Units "more than one" ness - and one person was trying to claim there is only one unit there.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Jeffersonian - it wasnt arguing the same side, just pointing out that you have to work out each Units "more than one" ness - and one person was trying to claim there is only one unit there.

Well that is a strange situation because the rules say that mordrak and the Ghost Knights form A unit. (So I can see how it is one unit if Mordrak and his ghost knights are on the table).

It is a weird situation because Mordrak reverts to being a unit after the rest of his unit is dead.

"Mordrak and the ghost knights form A unit, with Mordrak acting as an upgrade character until such point as the ghost knights are slain, at which point he reverts to being a single-model unit in his own right." P. 40 GK Codex.

DR - youre misunderstanding what I was saying. There are two possible Units - Mordrak, bought alone, or Mordrak as an upgrade to bought Ghost Knights. One is Mordraks unit, the orhter is a unit of Ghost Knights.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
DR - youre misunderstanding what I was saying. There are two possible Units - Mordrak, bought alone, or Mordrak as an upgrade to bought Ghost Knights. One is Mordraks unit, the orhter is a unit of Ghost Knights.

I disagree. Grand Master Mordrak bought alone is still an upgrade character even when alone, as he can spawn Ghost Knights which immediately joins him. And even though you can buy Grand Master Mordrak and his Ghost Knights as a single unit, Mordrak can still spawn additional Ghost Knights, leaving you still with the one unit: Grand Master Mordrak and his Ghost Knights. Also, no matter how many Ghost Knights Mordrak starts with or spawns, when Mordrak dies all the Ghost Knights go away. Which pretty much means that there is only ever one unit related to Mordrak, and that unit is "Grand Master Mordrak and his Ghost Knights" That one unit is composed of 1 Grand Master Mordrak model, up to 3 spawned Ghost Knight models at no additional cost (other than unsaved wounds), and 0-5 additional Ghost Knights at same cost as regular GKT.

So, no, I don't see the 2 units named Mordrak you are referring to.

SJ

They immediately join Mordraks UNIT. As in, the unit called "Grandmaster Mordrak". If you have him solo, and spawn knights, they join HIM, he doesnt join them.

There is a seperate unit called "Ghost Knights", which if you purchae them Mordrak becomes an upgrade character for.

So there are two possible units.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
They immediately join Mordraks UNIT. As in, the unit called "Grandmaster Mordrak". If you have him solo, and spawn knights, they join HIM, he doesnt join them.

There is a seperate unit called "Ghost Knights", which if you purchae them Mordrak becomes an upgrade character for.

So there are two possible units.

Oh? Cool! Show me where you can purchase just the Ghost Knights on their own. According to you, Ghost Knights are a unit on their own, right?

SJ

Nope, wrong again

Buy Mordrak. Buy Ghost Knights. Read the rules which states he is an upgrade character for them. Making the unit name "Ghost Knights".

Your made up "GMM and Ghost Knights" unit name is just that - made up.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Oh? Cool! Show me where you can purchase just the Ghost Knights on their own. According to you, Ghost Knights are a unit on their own, right?

That's not what he said at all.
Page 40, C:GK

An army that includes Mordrak can also include a unit of Ghost Knights.

First sentence of the "Ghostly Bodyguard" rule. This says that the unit (if purchased) is called Ghost Knights which Mordrak is an upgrade character for.

Place a new Ghost Knight within coherency of Mordrak's unit - it joins Mordrak's unit to all intents and purposes.

This says that (for example, if solo) Mordrak's unit (that would be GMM if he's solo) can be joined by a Ghost Knight. Note that this does not make a Ghost Knight unit - rather it's Mordrak's unit if he's solo.

For the next FAQ suggestion thread lets include a thorough summon list for an upcoming FAQ.
Things like LOS needed, cast from a vehicle etc etc. RAI is clearly not as RAW when it comes to summon.

Okay, I'll concede the point. Grand Master Mordrak on his own is not the same unit as Ghost Knights (which includes Grand Master Mordrak as an upgrade character).

SJ

 Happyjew wrote:
Actually, what is really confusing is this:

Q: Are both Grand Master Mordrak and the Ghost Knights each
worth a Kill Point? (p40)
A: No, upgrade characters do not give additional Kill Points.

That's because ghost knights can only be killed when they are in the unit with Mordrak. Because Mordrak is not an independent character when he is joined by Ghost Knights he acts like an upgrade character until such point as the ghost knights are slain. They are not two units that have joined together.

Mordrak is a unit that can be be joined by ghost knights and because of this fact he cannot be a unit that ALWAYS consists of a single model.

 wyomingfox wrote:

Same could be said of a Hive Tyrant as he can join a Tyrant Guard Squad?

Actually no, a Hive Tyrant can act like an IC to join a Tyrant Guard Squad. IC can be units that are ALWAYS a single model and can join other units.

 Happyjew wrote:

So you can show me where in the codex the unit named Mordrak has the option to take more than 1 model?

Ghostly Bodyguards Special Rule, Pg 40 IIRC.

 Happyjew wrote:

Can a Paladin Squad unit buy more models for the Paladin Squad unit?

Yes. Its an option listed under the army list section.

 Happyjew wrote:

Can the Mordrak unit buy more models for the Mordrak unit?

Yes. Its not an option listed in the army list section but is an option listed under the Ghostly Bodyguards special rule.

Can the Hive Tyrant unit buy more models for Hive Tyrant unit?

No. No option is given in the army list section and no special rule allows you to add models to the hive tyrant's unit.