Earlier this month I found a storage unit with tubs buried at the back of my mum's shed. Inside were some GW miniatures from when I was a kid. Two of those tubs have Bretonnians inside. This army was never really completed and one unit of Knights was even primed, ready and waiting to be painted. There's even movement trays lol. They were lost but now found just in time for re-release.
This upcoming release has definitely hit the nostalgia button for me. I always wanted there to be foot Knights to go with the army and never got the trebuchet as that went against the noble virtues or something.
I remember a Storm of Chaos campaign that had some kind of Errantry knight list, which let the young Knights make up compulsory slots or something.
I may have to play around with unit sizes regarding the new rules but definitely have my eye on the new Pegasus Lord, foot Knights and maybe some other units to make a balanced force. Can't remember now if they said mounted yeoman or skirmishers or something.
Not sure how well these old child paint jobs will hold up but it's a nice thought I always kept them. Not sure if my current paint skills will hold up either really. Anyway for anyone else who finds themself in a similar situation, enjoy your moment, Bretonnia, aye she lives
*Ignore the ballista and catapult, they were used for a home made sailing ship and mounted on deck for a naval siege game and display
Overread wrote: The Timeframe might have been invented or was GW's best guess at the time an article was posted. That said they did advertise Kislev and Cathay at the very start as new armies appearing in Old World. However now they aren't appearing even in the preview content.
chaos0xomega wrote: I was being flippant. I'm confident that they won't migrate dark elves over, nor any of the other factions. The reason they were excluded to begin with was for business reasons rather than for lore reasons, those business reasons aren't going change, but they are actually not entirely dissimilar from the reasons why there's no xenos in HH.
The only business reason (asides from GWs past record of schizophrenically releasing then ignoring side games) I can see is because they don't want to cross over model ranges with AoS, and there's no reason they can't pull the plug on DElves in AoS.
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: I don't think most people were expecting expensive hardback+expensive hardback+plus probably expensive softback to give an army everything that should have either been in the hordes book already or just gone the army book route.
No, we weren't.
But looking back, I'm not sure WHY we weren't. This is perfectly in character for GW.
Ah. Point to 3 books you need to buy to play necrons? Cities of sigmar? Horus heresy blood angels?
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: I don't think most people were expecting expensive hardback+expensive hardback+plus probably expensive softback to give an army everything that should have either been in the hordes book already or just gone the army book route.
No, we weren't.
But looking back, I'm not sure WHY we weren't. This is perfectly in character for GW.
Ah. Point to 3 books you need to buy to play necrons? Cities of sigmar? Horus heresy blood angels?
This is very non-typical launch for gw.
I think the problem comes from the "need" part but all of them require at least two (Rule book + codex/battletome/Liber) but they all also have supplements (chapter approved/Generals Handbook/Seige of Cthonia) which some people will see as a need and others won't. Of course there is Necromunda with the core book, different campaign books, and the House of Books.
Commodus Leitdorf wrote: This is, quite literally, pretty standard way GW releases stuff. Nothing about the multiple books and such is out of the ordinary for GW. Personally I cant wait to get my hands on the books.
Oh? Aos doesnt do this. 40k doesn't do this. What does?
Note how 40k did it. Free index until codex comes. 1 book.
Aos? 1 book you need. If you want units to ally 0 book for allies.
Ravening hordes from 6th was mentioned missing point. Totally different to rh.
8ed 40k? Still not same.
Secondly what exactly is wrong with a Rulebook and a compendium with the army you want? Keep in mind you do not need the Arcane Journal to play. It just contains specialty army lists.
And before anyone makes a snarky post about how "The specialty list will probably be better than the compendium ones" I'd really REALLY like for this game to avoid tournament brain as much as possible. Especially since I see it leaking here before the game has even come out yet.
+1, they are just trolls (3 books required to play? ).
I only need 2 books: rulebook + armies book, as always.
Well if you play bretonnia not magic items, spells, special characters. Have to take infantry(no all knight lists).
You'll be seriously underpowered vs other brets and tomb king and once others get their arcanum those too.
There's no 1 book for all bretonnia stuff.
Unlike say necrons, tvranid, skaven, cities of sigmar...
And if you instead take book with above no knight of the realms, duke, paladin, men at arms etc etc etc
It seems you didn't even bother to read the article.
Spells and magic items are included in the big book.
Yes, the generic stuff. But the journals are going to contain an armies special characters, army specific magic items, weapons, spells etc. so yes, you can ignore it if you want. But if you want the army to actually play to it's theme, you will want the journal.
just picking this up because as a non-native speaker I see the difference now that it is written out and the confusion it may have caused by not using essential instead, though the difference for me is not that clear and depending on context
the translation of mandatory as either as the opposite of optional or as options that are "must haves", while essential translates as something that is necessary/required, hence for my understanding of the wording would be the Journals are mandatory but not essential to play the game though if this is the other way around in English I am sorry for the confusion I caused
Incidentally, CA published a list of most played factions in TWW by region on instagram today - Kislev was #1 in Europe, Africa, North America, and South America. Cathay in Asia, and Empire in Oceania. That probably indicates that Kislev is the #1 most popular faction amongst the global playerbase, but the sheer size of chinas population might skew that in a different direction. That Kislev (and Cathay) was massively popular with the TWW community isn't new information and goes back some years and was probably something that GW and CA expected when they announced them (prior to their introducition in TWW3) based on market research. Thats the likely reason why both factions were announced as coming to TOW at all, because $$$. I am reasonably certain that Kislev not being ready to go on launch isn't for a lack of desire or effort on GWs part, as Kislev is apparently a clear money maker for the brand on a global scale, possibly moreso than Bretonnia and Khemri are, and probably something that GW management is expecting will carry the TOW brand and make it the financial success they want it to be.
the big question here is why it is the case
Bretonnia and Khemri are popular among the community mainly because they are not available and gone from AoS and therefore attract to collectors and classic fantasy gamers as they are different in design to the newer AoS line (hence why the Dragon caused unrest)
something similar could be for Cathy and Kislev, being popular simply because they were there in the Background but not available als playable faction
going further into that, the Warhammer Armies Project only reason to be popular and being around for such a long time now is because he wrote books about the minor factions that were there in the background but not playable or not playable any more with 7th Edition
Overread wrote: The Timeframe might have been invented or was GW's best guess at the time an article was posted. That said they did advertise Kislev and Cathay at the very start as new armies appearing in Old World. However now they aren't appearing even in the preview content.
"at the very start" is player invented bs though.
I think Overread is meaning "the very start" as in the very start of the preview articles for The Old World - maybe not the very first couple, but I seem to recall the Kislev and Cathay articles being very early in the three year process. I don't recall those articles saying the factions would be a day 1 release, however.
tneva82 wrote:Ah. Point to 3 books you need to buy to play necrons? Cities of sigmar? Horus heresy blood angels?
How about 9th ed Space Wolves (etc) or, probably, 10th ed Dark Angels (given the new book is listed as a "Codex Supplement", rather than a Codex, annoyingly)?
Rulebook + Codex + Supplement is not unusual, and we've seen it as far back as 40k 3rd ed, to varying degrees.
triplegrim wrote:So, will empire models be available for sale in 2024?
Outside of any kits in use in AOS still? Crystal ball is unclear. I'd assume we'll get some sort of roadmap article either during Q1, or as part of a preview event once the initial launch is out of the way. Given the number of factions being supported, I won't be surprised if some aren't released fully in 2024, but it is hard to say which will get priority. I won't be surprised by Empire and Orcs being up there, though (just do the world a favour, and leave the Elves till last, OK?).
Dysartes wrote: Rulebook + Codex + Supplement is not unusual, and we've seen it as far back as 40k 3rd ed, to varying degrees.
no that would not be unusual, but Rulebook + Index + Supplement is something new
we have had different version with Supplements, Campaign Books, Army Books, Generals Handbook etc, but having a Supplement in addition to an Index and not straight replacing the index list with it, was not there before
so even the 9th Edi SW/DA Supplements were in addition to a Codex that replaced the Index list and not in addition to the 8th Edi Index book (but would have caused outrage as well if the Space Wolves Supplement would have required the Space Marine Index book)
When do codex and supplement ever get released at the same time unless it's a whopper like space marines? This reads like they've just divided up the rules content for a given faction so they can sell two books. "Oh but it's optional content", so what? When did we get so tolerant of day-one DLC?
Gwindalor wrote: Oh yeah, sure... I guess you are one of those nostalgic people who plays the 7th edition or earlier, isnt?. Well, get used to ToW, since it is quite similar to 8th edition, luckily! xD
6th Edition had the best background, and from that it just got worse as everything was just the same hyperbole in storytelling by 8th and there was no real flavour left
and TOW is nothing like 8th from what we have seen so far, but than if you think TOW would be lucky to be like 8th, there was a reason not many people were left playing that game and the rules were just a part of that and this is not something I would call lucky
and until we see what is in the Journal books, there is still a good chance that it is more like 6th (and having the appendix army lists back is a good indication for that)
so get used to it, 8th is dead and won't come back for good reasons
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chaos0xomega wrote: The core rules of the game have already changed pretty dramatically from 8th that I doubt that points are unchanged from 8th. Besides TOW is not WHFB anyway, it's a new game.
of course it is, and maybe GW put the hours in to get all new point costs for all units that just ends to be on a similar level per force than 8th
yet I don't expect that, at least not on a full scale as it is much easier (and cheaper) to just take the existing values and make minor adjustments if at all, let the people play the game and than release points value based on player feedback
The 8th edition is just as dead as the 6th edition. The 6th lasted a poor 2 years at most, so it proves it wasn't a very good edition.
If you don't see the similarity between TOW and 8th edition, it's because you clearly don't know 8th edition and are only speaking from your tiny, ephemeral world of 6th edition.
How about 9th ed Space Wolves (etc) or, probably, 10th ed Dark Angels (given the new book is listed as a "Codex Supplement", rather than a Codex, annoyingly)?
I have not purchased a SW codex for several editions for exact the same reason. I don't appreciate the attempt to milk my money by not putting all my rules in one book. Codex SM has a whole bunch of crap I don't care about in it. I don't want to read about Marneus Calgar's left gauntlet, or Cato Sicarius' twinkletoes ability. If GW gave me all of my rules in one spot I would probably purchase that book.
The fact is this could have been one book each for Brets and Tomb Kings, and one more book for the other 'core' armies. Instead it is attempting to milk my money making me purchase things I don't want or need. In this case rules and fluff for the other armies in those books. Instead I won't purchase either book. I'm sure I'll be able to work out what I need from free army builders etc.
If you want to play to a variant list then, yes, you'll have to buy the extra book.
Or have access to your full list of Magic Items, Faction Spells and Characters.
If you think it is fine, you buy them. No one is telling you not to spend your money. We are just saying day 1 DLCs offend us.
Gwindalor wrote: Oh yeah, sure... I guess you are one of those nostalgic people who plays the 7th edition or earlier, isnt?. Well, get used to ToW, since it is quite similar to 8th edition, luckily! xD
6th Edition had the best background, and from that it just got worse as everything was just the same hyperbole in storytelling by 8th and there was no real flavour left
and TOW is nothing like 8th from what we have seen so far, but than if you think TOW would be lucky to be like 8th, there was a reason not many people were left playing that game and the rules were just a part of that and this is not something I would call lucky
and until we see what is in the Journal books, there is still a good chance that it is more like 6th (and having the appendix army lists back is a good indication for that)
so get used to it, 8th is dead and won't come back for good reasons
Automatically Appended Next Post:
chaos0xomega wrote: The core rules of the game have already changed pretty dramatically from 8th that I doubt that points are unchanged from 8th. Besides TOW is not WHFB anyway, it's a new game.
of course it is, and maybe GW put the hours in to get all new point costs for all units that just ends to be on a similar level per force than 8th
yet I don't expect that, at least not on a full scale as it is much easier (and cheaper) to just take the existing values and make minor adjustments if at all, let the people play the game and than release points value based on player feedback
The 8th edition is just as dead as the 6th edition. The 6th lasted a poor 2 years at most, so it proves it wasn't a very good edition.
If you don't see the similarity between TOW and 8th edition, it's because you clearly don't know 8th edition and are only speaking from your tiny, ephemeral world of 6th edition.
6th Ed lasted 6 years - 2000 - 2006. 50% longer than all of 4th, 5th, 7th and 8th. In that time they released an AB for almost every army (only Chaos Dwarfs and DoW missed out) and 2 for Dwarfs.
TOW clearly has elements from all editions, plus quite a bit that is new. There’s elements clearly taken from 8th, but there’s other elements that have reverted to the 6th/7th Ed paradigm (including it seems an aim for 6th Ed units sizes), as well as some elements that seem inspired by 4th/5th and even 3rd (parts of combat resolution, Bretonnian bombard).
It’s not a full reversion to 6th/7th, but it’s clearly not just a continuation of 8th either.
It looks like the 9th edition that I want to see from Warhammer Fantasy.
And the good news is, as a specialist game, I don't have to worry about the rules and army books radically changing every 3 years.
The stability of 6th lasting 6 years was very welcome, it allowed for supplement releases like the general's compendium.
I imagine we'll get all 8 initial armies released over the next two years in their mega boxes and then from there it'll be interesting to see where the game goes.
It's possible for another 8 armies to be added, simply by extending the historical period of the game a little further forward and that could be the next logical step for the game in the same way that blood bowl is gradually getting to *all* the older content.
The step back towards a low fantasy setting is very welcome, even before AoS, the setting had been messed with to the point where the trees walking the earth, gibbering skulls raining from the sky and rivers turning to blood/pus were everyday problems for a typical Empire peasant. Suitable only for the End Times, taking a step back from that (or just forgetting the whole thing even happened and viewing AoS as a parallel universe outcome) is very welcome.
I think Gwindalor was confusing 40k editions and fantasy edition. 6th edition 40k only lasted 2 years IIRC and was quickly replaced by 7th. How that would be relevant to WHFB is anyones guess.
Anyway, new article up on Warcom about Bretonnian fluff. Not a lot of meat there, the only revelation (as far as I am aware) is that the game is apaprently specifically "set" in the year 2276 IC.... which makes me question if GW even knows what its doing at all. Louen Orcslayer ascended the throne in 2201 yet is supposed to be a prominent character in this game - the dude has to be a borderline corpse at this point having reigned for 75 years, and he had to have been old enough to declare an Errantry War (which he himself fought in) at the time he ascended the throne. The dudes gotta be pushing 90-95 years minimum.
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: Yes, the generic stuff. But the journals are going to contain an armies special characters, army specific magic items, weapons, spells etc. so yes, you can ignore it if you want. But if you want the army to actually play to it's theme, you will want the journal.
stonehorse wrote: I have mixed feelings about all of this. At first I was very excited for Warhammer Fantasy Battles coming back, but as time has shown more I'm less excited.
So far we have seen the re-release of old models that were bad when they were released (Tomb King Skeletons).
And.
Faction books essential spread over several publications, to squeeze out more cash.
If anything I think ToW is looking to be GW testing the waters on just how far they can push things with their rabid fanbase.to see where the limit is on what they can get away with, because only a fool would think that GW will not charge a premium price for thise old Skeletons, and for the 2 books needed to get one army list. Maximum profit, for minimum effort.
I may just stick to 6th edition and use predominantly none GW models.
I'm not sure what to think either.
It's great to have a return to the WHFB setting again, seeing some of the old miniatures come back, some nice new miniatures, and even novels. Rule wise it seems like an updated WHFB style game too, which is good.
But to have it be a return to only part of the setting, with several armies left out beyond some basic rules just so you can play "for old times sake" and them having no plans to bring them back properly, some of the preview material from a while back having no current relevance and no indication of what's really going on with them, multiple books to get the complete set of rules for your army, and presumably those very old miniatures at modern pricing, it sort of takes away from the whole thing quite a lot.
I do hope that it does well, but at the moment the direction they've gone seems a little bit of a shame in some ways. It's a return of some WHFB things, rather than WHFB on the whole.
Lord Zarkov wrote: 6th Ed lasted 6 years - 2000 - 2006. 50% longer than all of 4th, 5th, 7th and 8th. In that time they released an AB for almost every army (only Chaos Dwarfs and DoW missed out) and 2 for Dwarfs.
I have to wonder if part of that longevity was due to LotR sucking up design capacity, which precluded the standard 3-year churn.
It was a very stable edition, and I remember when 7th was under discussion a lot of sentiment was "It's not broke, so don't change it!" which GW did because churn was official policy.
That's another reason why I'm skeptical on this whole enterprise because GW has repeatedly tweaked games to the brink of excellence, only to throw them away and essentially start over. I'm not sure why I should expect anything different.
I wasn't expecting anything else until next year. They also have set a dedicated website for it. Isn't it the only game that has that? It's there a page for 40k that I don't know about?
I wasn't expecting anything else until next year. They also have set a dedicated website for it. Isn't it the only game that has that? It's there a page for 40k that I don't know about?
Anyway, new article up on Warcom about Bretonnian fluff. Not a lot of meat there, the only revelation (as far as I am aware) is that the game is apaprently specifically "set" in the year 2276 IC.... which makes me question if GW even knows what its doing at all. Louen Orcslayer ascended the throne in 2201 yet is supposed to be a prominent character in this game - the dude has to be a borderline corpse at this point having reigned for 75 years, and he had to have been old enough to declare an Errantry War (which he himself fought in) at the time he ascended the throne. The dudes gotta be pushing 90-95 years minimum.
chaos0xomega wrote: I think Gwindalor was confusing 40k editions and fantasy edition. 6th edition 40k only lasted 2 years IIRC and was quickly replaced by 7th. How that would be relevant to WHFB is anyones guess.
Anyway, new article up on Warcom about Bretonnian fluff. Not a lot of meat there, the only revelation (as far as I am aware) is that the game is apaprently specifically "set" in the year 2276 IC.... which makes me question if GW even knows what its doing at all. Louen Orcslayer ascended the throne in 2201 yet is supposed to be a prominent character in this game - the dude has to be a borderline corpse at this point having reigned for 75 years, and he had to have been old enough to declare an Errantry War (which he himself fought in) at the time he ascended the throne. The dudes gotta be pushing 90-95 years minimum.
Guy’s a Grail Knight and they are superhuman with extended lifespans, at ~100 (allowing time to become a Grail Knight) he may well be getting old for a GK, but probably still fighting fit.
I wasn't expecting anything else until next year. They also have set a dedicated website for it. Isn't it the only game that has that? It's there a page for 40k that I don't know about?
We know that Louen is dead sometime before 2297, as thats the year that King Jules the Just (who had ruled for several years at that point) is slain and succeeded by Gaston de Beau Geste as part of the Affair of the False Grail, so Grail Vow or no hes got to be near the end of his extended life span. How old is the average Grail Knight anyway? I have to imagine that becoming a Grail Knight takes many years of questing and most don't succeed in becoming a Grail Knight until their 30s or 40s. That alone would push Louens age well over 100 years.
stonehorse wrote: I have mixed feelings about all of this. At first I was very excited for Warhammer Fantasy Battles coming back, but as time has shown more I'm less excited.
So far we have seen the re-release of old models that were bad when they were released (Tomb King Skeletons).
And.
Faction books essential spread over several publications, to squeeze out more cash.
If anything I think ToW is looking to be GW testing the waters on just how far they can push things with their rabid fanbase.to see where the limit is on what they can get away with, because only a fool would think that GW will not charge a premium price for thise old Skeletons, and for the 2 books needed to get one army list. Maximum profit, for minimum effort.
I may just stick to 6th edition and use predominantly none GW models.
I'm not sure what to think either.
It's great to have a return to the WHFB setting again, seeing some of the old miniatures come back, some nice new miniatures, and even novels. Rule wise it seems like an updated WHFB style game too, which is good.
But to have it be a return to only part of the setting, with several armies left out beyond some basic rules just so you can play "for old times sake" and them having no plans to bring them back properly, some of the preview material from a while back having no current relevance and no indication of what's really going on with them, multiple books to get the complete set of rules for your army, and presumably those very old miniatures at modern pricing, it sort of takes away from the whole thing quite a lot.
I do hope that it does well, but at the moment the direction they've gone seems a little bit of a shame in some ways. It's a return of some WHFB things, rather than WHFB on the whole.
Well, they never actually promised us that all of WHFB was returning. In fact, they never really stated that WHFB was returning at all. Rather they used terms like "reinvention" and phrasing that indicated the idea that it was a new game in a new part of an old setting, rather than a direct continuation of WHFB proper. I also recall from the get-go arguing with various folks (yourself included) that based on the name of the game and the map provided in literally the second TOW article ever published, that the game would have a smaller scope and cut a number of factions in order to focus on a more limited roster with greater narrative depth (granted, in my mind High Elves and Tomb Kings were out, Daemons, Skaven, and Vampire Counts were in). If GWs approach to marketing and communication was better, we might not have needed to "read between the lines" as it were to have seen this coming and they would have bene more straightforward and explicit in telling us off the bat that this would not be WHFB as we knew it and that there would be different factions and things cut from it, etc. Still, the clues and indicators were all there from the start, and some of us quite rightly pointed them out, so it shouldn't come as a total surprise either though I can understand the disappointment (mainly because I have been frustrated as it seemed obvious to me but nobody would listen because GWs own communication never directly or explicitly stated as such and left it open to interpretation and everyone seemed to have blinders on to reality).
Lord Zarkov wrote: 6th Ed lasted 6 years - 2000 - 2006. 50% longer than all of 4th, 5th, 7th and 8th. In that time they released an AB for almost every army (only Chaos Dwarfs and DoW missed out) and 2 for Dwarfs.
I have to wonder if part of that longevity was due to LotR sucking up design capacity, which precluded the standard 3-year churn.
It was a very stable edition, and I remember when 7th was under discussion a lot of sentiment was "It's not broke, so don't change it!" which GW did because churn was official policy.
That's another reason why I'm skeptical on this whole enterprise because GW has repeatedly tweaked games to the brink of excellence, only to throw them away and essentially start over. I'm not sure why I should expect anything different.
The "standard 3-year churn" wasn't a thing until around 7th or 8th ed 40k, circa 2015-2019 area. Before that, the editions for both 40k and fantasy varied between 4-5 years on average.
chaos0xomega wrote: We know that Louen is dead sometime before 2297, as thats the year that King Jules the Just (who had ruled for several years at that point) is slain and succeeded by Gaston de Beau Geste as part of the Affair of the False Grail, so Grail Vow or no hes got to be near the end of his extended life span. How old is the average Grail Knight anyway? I have to imagine that becoming a Grail Knight takes many years of questing and most don't succeed in becoming a Grail Knight until their 30s or 40s. That alone would push Louens age well over 100 years.
Would be interesting, if the way they are doing this is periodically releasing Arcane Tomes that nudge the narrative along, if Louen Orc-Slayer dies as part of the narrative and you see the accession of Jules le Just before moving on to the Affair of the False Grail (which happens a little before the GWAC). Perhaps he could appear earlier in the story as a Duke?
Affair of the False Grail could be great fodder for variant armies and special characters.
stonehorse wrote: I have mixed feelings about all of this. At first I was very excited for Warhammer Fantasy Battles coming back, but as time has shown more I'm less excited.
So far we have seen the re-release of old models that were bad when they were released (Tomb King Skeletons).
And.
Faction books essential spread over several publications, to squeeze out more cash.
If anything I think ToW is looking to be GW testing the waters on just how far they can push things with their rabid fanbase.to see where the limit is on what they can get away with, because only a fool would think that GW will not charge a premium price for thise old Skeletons, and for the 2 books needed to get one army list. Maximum profit, for minimum effort.
I may just stick to 6th edition and use predominantly none GW models.
I'm not sure what to think either.
It's great to have a return to the WHFB setting again, seeing some of the old miniatures come back, some nice new miniatures, and even novels. Rule wise it seems like an updated WHFB style game too, which is good.
But to have it be a return to only part of the setting, with several armies left out beyond some basic rules just so you can play "for old times sake" and them having no plans to bring them back properly, some of the preview material from a while back having no current relevance and no indication of what's really going on with them, multiple books to get the complete set of rules for your army, and presumably those very old miniatures at modern pricing, it sort of takes away from the whole thing quite a lot.
I do hope that it does well, but at the moment the direction they've gone seems a little bit of a shame in some ways. It's a return of some WHFB things, rather than WHFB on the whole.
Well, they never actually promised us that all of WHFB was returning. In fact, they never really stated that WHFB was returning at all. Rather they used terms like "reinvention" and phrasing that indicated the idea that it was a new game in a new part of an old setting, rather than a direct continuation of WHFB proper. I also recall from the get-go arguing with various folks (yourself included) that based on the name of the game and the map provided in literally the second TOW article ever published, that the game would have a smaller scope and cut a number of factions in order to focus on a more limited roster with greater narrative depth (granted, in my mind High Elves and Tomb Kings were out, Daemons, Skaven, and Vampire Counts were in). If GWs approach to marketing and communication was better, we might not have needed to "read between the lines" as it were to have seen this coming and they would have bene more straightforward and explicit in telling us off the bat that this would not be WHFB as we knew it and that there would be different factions and things cut from it, etc. Still, the clues and indicators were all there from the start, and some of us quite rightly pointed them out, so it shouldn't come as a total surprise either though I can understand the disappointment (mainly because I have been frustrated as it seemed obvious to me but nobody would listen because GWs own communication never directly or explicitly stated as such and left it open to interpretation and everyone seemed to have blinders on to reality).
Many were thinking that because the game was named "The Old World" it would be set in that area and focus on the armies there but I was saying that the term "Old World" quite often gets used by GW to refer to WHFB, rather than just the continent of The Old World. I wasn't one who thought the game would be smaller scale based on the naming.
While they did never fully say to what extent the game would bring back WHFB, what I was hoping for was a return to the full setting itself, even if not right away. Having it all at launch would have been too much obviously, but I had thought that even if the initial scale was relatively small or focused on certain parts, the other armies and areas of the setting would still be part of it with both the lore and game expanded over time to bring the rest in. But we've been told that those other things aren't part of the narrative and they don't have plans for them, unfortunately.
Really don't know what "clues and indicators were all there from the start" you mean though as re-reading some of the articles, beyond the use of the term "The Old World" (which as I said gets used to refer to the WHFB setting and not just that area of it, sometimes) there isn't really much that suggests it either way.
chaos0xomega wrote: We know that Louen is dead sometime before 2297, as thats the year that King Jules the Just (who had ruled for several years at that point) is slain and succeeded by Gaston de Beau Geste as part of the Affair of the False Grail, so Grail Vow or no hes got to be near the end of his extended life span. How old is the average Grail Knight anyway? I have to imagine that becoming a Grail Knight takes many years of questing and most don't succeed in becoming a Grail Knight until their 30s or 40s. That alone would push Louens age well over 100 years.
Would be interesting, if the way they are doing this is periodically releasing Arcane Tomes that nudge the narrative along, if Louen Orc-Slayer dies as part of the narrative and you see the accession of Jules le Just before moving on to the Affair of the False Grail (which happens a little before the GWAC). Perhaps he could appear earlier in the story as a Duke?
Affair of the False Grail could be great fodder for variant armies and special characters.
I think more likely than an Arcane Tome they would just release a narrative expansion book about the Affair of the False Grail that would contain everything of relevance. Imagine a book similar to Siege of Cthonia for Horus Heresy.
Many were thinking that because the game was named "The Old World" it would be set in that area and focus on the armies there but I was saying that the term "Old World" quite often gets used by GW to refer to WHFB, rather than just the continent of The Old World. I wasn't one who thought the game would be smaller scale based on the naming.
Right, my point was though that this is exactly what ended up happening, even if you didn't believe it at the time (really I promise Im not trying to "I told you so" here). The clues were always there, GWs statements and the information GW was provided all alluded to idea of it, even if they never directly or overtly stated as such.
Really don't know what "clues and indicators were all there from the start" you mean though as re-reading some of the articles, beyond the use of the term "The Old World" (which as I said gets used to refer to the WHFB setting and not just that area of it, sometimes) there isn't really much that suggests it either way.
You don't think the fact that (barring the article about Cathay and one of the later Kislev maps that stretched as far as the Mountains of Mourn), all the maps that they produced only covered the actual continent called THE OLD WORLD was maybe a pretty big clue? The fact that from the get-go this was framed as the Horus Heresy analogue for Age of Sigmar (which itself indicated a limited focus on a narrow scope, there are no xenos in HH after all)? The first actual article for the game portraying 4 Empire factions rather than one, which right off the bat informed us the game was set in a different time period (one which could have easily been even more restrictive than what it ended up being in the end) which precluded a number of possible characters and units from participating in the game? The fact that the presence of a splintered Emprie faction implied the possibility that there might not even be an Empire faction and instead you would have four distinct army lists with four distinct and separate model ranges (this one hasn't come to pass, at least not yet - but it seems unlikely to be the direction that it goes in). The fact that ongoing development of the map never really indicated any faction symbols for Skaven, Vampire Counts, Ogres, Chorfs, Lizardmen, etc. might have also been a clue - I remember we all wised up to the idea that the symbols were tied to supported factions early on, we got pretty excited when the High Elves and Wood Elves symbols showed up for example.
I dunno, we clearly have and have had different perspectives on it. I clearly saw something in what was being shown to us that pointed me in the right direction, but which you and many others missed. I'm not clairvoyant, I very much doubt that I pulled GWs intent out of the ether basically whole cloth, but something in the minimal communication GW provided to us was enough to communicate to me (but not unto thee) what reasonable expectations for the future were (and even then I still wasnt 100% spot on, I never thought they'd have the balls to launch this game with the original WHFB miniatures range).
Automatically Appended Next Post: Messing around with the interactive map on the Old World website - some interesting morsels there that point to possible future narrative direction for the game to take. Maldred is Duke of Mousillon, and Mousillon is one of the few interactable cities on the map, so it seems the Affair of the False Grail will eventually be featured.
Donalba in the Border Princes is confirmed to be a cast-out Estalian prince (called it)! Tordorno is a Tilean merchant prince (also called it)! Uvetovsk is likewise Kislevite (and apparently has enemies in Kislev that he is trying to escape). Ortegata is also Estalian.
Theres some further hints that aren't interactive - theres more than just 4 empire factions for example, theres also a Croop VI in Mootland, factions in Averland, Wissenland, and Sudenland, Engelweiss IX in Stirland, and another faction in Ostermark. Joining Harkon in the Border Princes as a possible vampiric faction is also "Drakvald" in Sylvania.
So there’s an interactive version of the map on the new website. Confirms Mousillion is run by Maldred already, so an Affair of the False Grail scenario seems fairly likely.
The other major tidbit I found is it seems the Talebheim led Empire faction is the most magical, since it specifically calls out it being a home for warlocks.
All Bret, TK and Border Princes factions have information on them plus the 4 major Empire ones.
Interestingly, despite VC not being a core faction, the Harkon BP faction is one with more information on it. Assume it’s Walach since Luthor should already be in Lustria.
Really enjoying all the lore snippets on the interactive map - interesting that many of the Border Prince and Princesses are not starting factions - we have Vampires, Kislev, Estalian, Tilean.
Also seems to be a Duchess ruling a Bretonnian duchy but she may just be the wife or widow of an absent lord
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: I don't think most people were expecting expensive hardback+expensive hardback+plus probably expensive softback to give an army everything that should have either been in the hordes book already or just gone the army book route.
No, we weren't.
But looking back, I'm not sure WHY we weren't. This is perfectly in character for GW.
Ah. Point to 3 books you need to buy to play necrons? Cities of sigmar? Horus heresy blood angels?
This is very non-typical launch for gw.
If this succeeds, expect it to happen in the other games too.
H.B.M.C. wrote: And, just to be clear, I guess screw you if you play Dark Elves?
Can't see any mention of them.
Dark Elves, Lizardmen, Skaven all cast to the AoS bin for now.
Yeah…. This is serious issue for me possibly getting back into Warhammer vice sticking with Kings of War.
No Skaven? Non-starter for my interest in a rank and flank “Warhammer-ish” game.
Valete,
JohnS
Is the free PDF army list and the likely complete model range refresh they'll be receiving with Age of Sigmar not enough for you? Just buy the AoS models and some sets of square bases and you're golden.
mattl wrote: I suspect all the relevant pieces from Ravening Hordes and the other book will find their way into tools like Battlescribe very quickly.
which does not make it better, and sending the signal to GW that no matter what they do you are going to support them and their games will for sure help changing things
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: I don't think most people were expecting expensive hardback+expensive hardback+plus probably expensive softback to give an army everything that should have either been in the hordes book already or just gone the army book route.
No, we weren't.
But looking back, I'm not sure WHY we weren't. This is perfectly in character for GW.
Ah. Point to 3 books you need to buy to play necrons? Cities of sigmar? Horus heresy blood angels?
This is very non-typical launch for gw.
If this succeeds, expect it to happen in the other games too.
Doubtful. Different product line catering to a different audience and market with a different release model. 40k and AoS are the mainline "competitive" games intended for mainstream audiences and "optimized" for play in a competitive space. They largely minimize the books needed to play those competitively, with the exception of the end-of-cycle releases where they put out new units in one-off books that will be obsolete within 3-6 months of release.
TOW, like HH, Necromunda, etc. is a "casual" (narrative moreso than "casual") gamers game which will have its releases sprawled out across countless books.
To tnevas point, to play your Horus Heresy Blood Angels currently you need the Age of Darkness Rulebook + Liber Astartes + Siege of Cthonia for the Blood Angels Inductii rules + the Legacies of the Age of Darkness: Legiones Astartes PDF for the expanded unit list + Exemplary Battles: The Death of Canopus PDF for the Blood Angels Ofanim Court unit rules (which lets be real, will eventually be published into a future volume of the Exemplary Battles series like the one that has the rules for Daemon Fulgrim). So, actually yes - if you want to play Horus Heresy Blood Angels you currently need 3 books + 2 PDFs. One of those PDFs will eventually convert to book #4. Its quite likely that there will be a couple more books beyond that as GW has said that some of the units found in the Legacies PDF will eventually be repulbished in other sources as well. Etc.
With the Arcane Journals; has anyone noticed that there’s nothing to say the extra spells and items won’t be tied to the special army lists, kinda like 40K enhancements and stratagems are tied to their detachments?
Mr_Rose wrote: With the Arcane Journals; has anyone noticed that there’s nothing to say the extra spells and items won’t be tied to the special army lists, kinda like 40K enhancements and stratagems are tied to their detachments?
Could well be for some tbh, though for the first TK one I assume the spell lore will be Lore of Nehekhara which should probably be usable by all TK armies.
Does make more sense now that Waagh is a Rulebook lore.
H.B.M.C. wrote: And, just to be clear, I guess screw you if you play Dark Elves?
Can't see any mention of them.
Dark Elves, Lizardmen, Skaven all cast to the AoS bin for now.
Yeah…. This is serious issue for me possibly getting back into Warhammer vice sticking with Kings of War.
No Skaven? Non-starter for my interest in a rank and flank “Warhammer-ish” game.
Valete,
JohnS
If this goes by the way of the Warmaster release route, we/ll be waiting a long time for Skaven, Dark Elves & Lizardmen. But for Lizardmen, I'd much rather play with my new bigger, tougher looking Seraphon. I can imagine Empire & Orcs Goblins as the next armies released.
Well there is Battle Magic, Dark Magic, Daemonology, Elementalism, High Magic, Illusion, Necromancy, and Waaagh! Magic. Some of those sound like they would exclusive to some factions.
And I now speculate that Liche Priest have spell(s) that they always know regardless of the lore they pick and they probaply can take either Lore of Battle, Dark or Necromancy.
So I am bit skeptical on Journal having a whole separate Lore of Magic but rather there is singular spells that are tied to lists and magic items. Makes more sense in my mind.
So I am bit skeptical on Journal having a whole separate Lore of Magic but rather there is singular spells that are tied to lists and magic items. Makes more sense in my mind.
It could vary Journal by Journal. For example I could see the Mortuary Cult in the TK Journal getting a Lore of Magic of its own, but the Bret lists probably wouldn't. And then you may get new Virtues in the Bret Journal where there may not be an equivalent in the TK one.
Sotahullu wrote: Well there is Battle Magic, Dark Magic, Daemonology, Elementalism, High Magic, Illusion, Necromancy, and Waaagh! Magic. Some of those sound like they would exclusive to some factions.
And I now speculate that Liche Priest have spell(s) that they always know regardless of the lore they pick and they probaply can take either Lore of Battle, Dark or Necromancy.
So I am bit skeptical on Journal having a whole separate Lore of Magic but rather there is singular spells that are tied to lists and magic items. Makes more sense in my mind.
Those are the Rulebook lores, but we also know there is a Lore of Nehekhara as we got details on one of its spells in the magic article.
Presumably that’s in the first AJ.
Agree with MaxT that it probably varies journal to journal.
I don’t see why they can’t have faction magic in the index books either; they’re kind of chunky for four and five army lists having minimal description. Roughly 40 pages per faction.
H.B.M.C. wrote: And, just to be clear, I guess screw you if you play Dark Elves?
Can't see any mention of them.
Dark Elves, Lizardmen, Skaven all cast to the AoS bin for now.
Yeah…. This is serious issue for me possibly getting back into Warhammer vice sticking with Kings of War.
No Skaven? Non-starter for my interest in a rank and flank “Warhammer-ish” game.
Valete,
JohnS
Skaven&dark elves gets rules including armies of infamy. What they dont get is new models & fluff.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mr_Rose wrote: I don’t see why they can’t have faction magic in the index books either; they’re kind of chunky for four and five army lists having minimal description. Roughly 40 pages per faction.
Pounds. Cash.
They want to sell arcane books. Need to have rules you need.
Overread wrote: I will not start a new army
I will not start a new army
I will not start a new army
I will not start a new army
I will not start a new army
Yes you will.
The only question is wich one you start with.
I'm as excited for this as I was plastic HH. I'm approaching 40. GW know what they're doing, and I applaud their ability to make me a cantankerous old man and then market to my rancor with new games that feel like my old games.
I'll buy one of each of these boxes, and then make a Vampire Counts army with lovely, square bases.
chaos0xomega wrote: The "standard 3-year churn" wasn't a thing until around 7th or 8th ed 40k, circa 2015-2019 area. Before that, the editions for both 40k and fantasy varied between 4-5 years on average.
I'm speaking in retrospect. At the time, the sentiment was that GW was inching to a finished, final edition of both games. The rift between 2nd and 3rd 40k was broad and deep, but 4th sort of flowed out of 3rd through 3.5.
When 7th ed. WHFB came out and fixed nothing but boosted the model count, it didn't make sense, but in hindsight that was where the idea (if not the practice) of churn began.
And having happened, it's hard not to expect it to happen again, especially since the initial launch here is small, which not only allows new factions, but new editions to promote them.
Mr_Rose wrote: With the Arcane Journals; has anyone noticed that there’s nothing to say the extra spells and items won’t be tied to the special army lists, kinda like 40K enhancements and stratagems are tied to their detachments?
Could well be for some tbh, though for the first TK one I assume the spell lore will be Lore of Nehekhara which should probably be usable by all TK armies.
We won't know for sure until they're released, but my understanding is that the two big army books are supposed to allow you to play "standard army", which for the TK requires you to have access to the Lore of Nehekara. You can't really have TK without that lore, which has always been unique to the Tomb Kings, and is required in order to fulfill some fairly basic functions.
I mean, I expect the Dark Elf PDF list to have access to Dark Magic, even though no further Dark Elf releases are to be expected (though I wouldn't be surprised if we see a one-off at some point). Dark Magic is a basic part of the Dark Elves, and it wouldn't be Dark Elves without access to Dark Lore. Similarly, you can't have Tomb Kings without Lore of Nehekara. That lore is part of what makes the Tomb Kings Tomb Kings.
As a result, I suspect that the Lore of Nehekara will be in the Ravening Hordes book, and not in the TK journal. Though the TK journal might have a variant version of it for a specific army list found in the journal.
chaos0xomega wrote: I didn't think skaven and dark elves were getting armies of infamy. That's an arcane tome thing, and they don't get one of those?
It is my understanding that pdf factions only get the Grand Army list
This is correct. No further releases are to be expected for those armies. IMO, it's possible that we might see one or two in the future to fit in with a narrative event. But such things would be years in the future at this point, not for some time, and should not be a reason to buy the army until one is actually released.
Ahtman wrote: Considering the nature of the project I'm surprised so many people thought every old faction was going to get a full rule set and miniatures release.
The miniatures part is unrealistic, but the precedent of a get-you-by book for every faction (even ones that would subsequently be dropped) has been set in both 40k (the Black Codex) and WHFB (Ravening Hordes 6th ed.). So it's not unreasonable, especially if the stated purpose is to bring wayward gamers 'home'.
Ahtman wrote: Considering the nature of the project I'm surprised so many people thought every old faction was going to get a full rule set and miniatures release.
The miniatures part is unrealistic, but the precedent of a get-you-by book for every faction (even ones that would subsequently be dropped) has been set in both 40k (the Black Codex) and WHFB (Ravening Hordes 6th ed.). So it's not unreasonable, especially if the stated purpose is to bring wayward gamers 'home'.
I'm not saying it is unreasonable just that I never got the impression this was going to be a line wide revival, even if just talking about books. I'm sure if it sells surprisingly well and appears to have legs we'll see a third or fourth book of factions somewhere down the line.
H.B.M.C. wrote: And, just to be clear, I guess screw you if you play Dark Elves?
Can't see any mention of them.
Dark Elves, Lizardmen, Skaven all cast to the AoS bin for now.
Yeah…. This is serious issue for me possibly getting back into Warhammer vice sticking with Kings of War.
No Skaven? Non-starter for my interest in a rank and flank “Warhammer-ish” game.
Valete,
JohnS
If this goes by the way of the Warmaster release route, we/ll be waiting a long time for Skaven, Dark Elves & Lizardmen. But for Lizardmen, I'd much rather play with my new bigger, tougher looking Seraphon. I can imagine Empire & Orcs Goblins as the next armies released.
Warmaster won't be the release model. I'm not sure anyone still at GW even remembers that game.
The release model will either go off in weird new directions, or be more akin to HH2, Warcry or Newcromunda.
(For books alone) I'd wager on HH2 just for the opening salvo of rules plus good vs evil army books with a vague sense of more later on an uncertain timeline, with some things only getting pdf support. With the audience wishing for their specific faction to turn up sooner or later (like solar auxiliary)
And having happened, it's hard not to expect it to happen again, especially since the initial launch here is small, which not only allows new factions, but new editions to promote them.
Apart from not being 40k&aos. Other games haven't shown new edition at constant rate or at least if constant gap is longer. Like new hh every 10 years and at every 6 years(minimum seeing 2nd ed hasn't come yet)
So new edition might come but decade later. And meanwhile support might be level of life support.
Mr_Rose wrote: With the Arcane Journals; has anyone noticed that there’s nothing to say the extra spells and items won’t be tied to the special army lists, kinda like 40K enhancements and stratagems are tied to their detachments?
Could well be for some tbh, though for the first TK one I assume the spell lore will be Lore of Nehekhara which should probably be usable by all TK armies.
We won't know for sure until they're released, but my understanding is that the two big army books are supposed to allow you to play "standard army", which for the TK requires you to have access to the Lore of Nehekara. You can't really have TK without that lore, which has always been unique to the Tomb Kings, and is required in order to fulfill some fairly basic functions.
I mean, I expect the Dark Elf PDF list to have access to Dark Magic, even though no further Dark Elf releases are to be expected (though I wouldn't be surprised if we see a one-off at some point). Dark Magic is a basic part of the Dark Elves, and it wouldn't be Dark Elves without access to Dark Lore. Similarly, you can't have Tomb Kings without Lore of Nehekara. That lore is part of what makes the Tomb Kings Tomb Kings.
As a result, I suspect that the Lore of Nehekara will be in the Ravening Hordes book, and not in the TK journal. Though the TK journal might have a variant version of it for a specific army list found in the journal.
Dark Magic is a Rulebook lore so DE won’t need a lore in their pdf.
Given Waagh magic is a Rulebook lore despite only one army using it, I’m dubious there’s entire lores in the compendia, though it does seem there are some spells in them according to the article.
Might be TK get Necromancy plus 1-2 of the others in the compendium, then gets the full Lore of Nehekhara in the AJ. Someone needs to be using Necromancy from the main armies given it is a Rulebook lore.
NB, while we know Lore of Nehekhara is coming somewhere, 8th Ed is the one one of the 4 rule sets TK had* which featured a full Lore of Nehekhara, so it’s not that fundamental to them.
Voss wrote: The release model will either go off in weird new directions, or be more akin to HH2, Warcry or Newcromunda.
(For books alone) I'd wager on HH2 just for the opening salvo of rules plus good vs evil army books with a vague sense of more later on an uncertain timeline, with some things only getting pdf support. With the audience wishing for their specific faction to turn up sooner or later (like solar auxiliary)
What I expect here with TOW:
Journal books for armies in release of the boxes until all of them are done, and I guess there will be 2 gods Chaos boxes or 2 Empire boxes to get the double release done with 9 factions.
In addition, either during the main release going or after that we will see campaign books introducing more new units or new subfactions with new models for the ongoing story and proper army books after that to have all the units from different books collected in one
big question now is just what is the 3rd game system and with a new Edition of AoS and 40k every 3 years there is a year without major release and either GW makes it the year of side games with a different one each time expanding the side games to 6-9 year cycles, or 3rd main game is chosen
Mr_Rose wrote: With the Arcane Journals; has anyone noticed that there’s nothing to say the extra spells and items won’t be tied to the special army lists, kinda like 40K enhancements and stratagems are tied to their detachments?
Could well be for some tbh, though for the first TK one I assume the spell lore will be Lore of Nehekhara which should probably be usable by all TK armies.
We won't know for sure until they're released, but my understanding is that the two big army books are supposed to allow you to play "standard army", which for the TK requires you to have access to the Lore of Nehekara. You can't really have TK without that lore, which has always been unique to the Tomb Kings, and is required in order to fulfill some fairly basic functions.
I mean, I expect the Dark Elf PDF list to have access to Dark Magic, even though no further Dark Elf releases are to be expected (though I wouldn't be surprised if we see a one-off at some point). Dark Magic is a basic part of the Dark Elves, and it wouldn't be Dark Elves without access to Dark Lore. Similarly, you can't have Tomb Kings without Lore of Nehekara. That lore is part of what makes the Tomb Kings Tomb Kings.
As a result, I suspect that the Lore of Nehekara will be in the Ravening Hordes book, and not in the TK journal. Though the TK journal might have a variant version of it for a specific army list found in the journal.
Dark Magic is a Rulebook lore so DE won’t need a lore in their pdf.
Given Waagh magic is a Rulebook lore despite only one army using it, I’m dubious there’s entire lores in the compendia, though it does seem there are some spells in them according to the article.
Might be TK get Necromancy plus 1-2 of the others in the compendium, then gets the full Lore of Nehekhara in the AJ. Someone needs to be using Necromancy from the main armies given it is a Rulebook lore.
NB, while we know Lore of Nehekhara is coming somewhere, 8th Ed is the one one of the 4 rule sets TK had* which featured a full Lore of Nehekhara, so it’s not that fundamental to them.
*5th Ed WD list, 6th Ed RH, 6th Ed AB, 8th Ed AB
I would guess Necromancy will be an Empire lore - the interactive map aleady talks about the Talabecland
harbouring numerous Witches, Warlocks and secretive guilds
and Middenheim should also have plenty as its the home of the oldest magic guild in the Empire. I agree the TK should not really have it,
Mr_Rose wrote: With the Arcane Journals; has anyone noticed that there’s nothing to say the extra spells and items won’t be tied to the special army lists, kinda like 40K enhancements and stratagems are tied to their detachments?
Could well be for some tbh, though for the first TK one I assume the spell lore will be Lore of Nehekhara which should probably be usable by all TK armies.
We won't know for sure until they're released, but my understanding is that the two big army books are supposed to allow you to play "standard army", which for the TK requires you to have access to the Lore of Nehekara. You can't really have TK without that lore, which has always been unique to the Tomb Kings, and is required in order to fulfill some fairly basic functions.
I mean, I expect the Dark Elf PDF list to have access to Dark Magic, even though no further Dark Elf releases are to be expected (though I wouldn't be surprised if we see a one-off at some point). Dark Magic is a basic part of the Dark Elves, and it wouldn't be Dark Elves without access to Dark Lore. Similarly, you can't have Tomb Kings without Lore of Nehekara. That lore is part of what makes the Tomb Kings Tomb Kings.
As a result, I suspect that the Lore of Nehekara will be in the Ravening Hordes book, and not in the TK journal. Though the TK journal might have a variant version of it for a specific army list found in the journal.
Dark Magic is a Rulebook lore so DE won’t need a lore in their pdf.
Given Waagh magic is a Rulebook lore despite only one army using it, I’m dubious there’s entire lores in the compendia, though it does seem there are some spells in them according to the article.
Might be TK get Necromancy plus 1-2 of the others in the compendium, then gets the full Lore of Nehekhara in the AJ. Someone needs to be using Necromancy from the main armies given it is a Rulebook lore.
NB, while we know Lore of Nehekhara is coming somewhere, 8th Ed is the one one of the 4 rule sets TK had* which featured a full Lore of Nehekhara, so it’s not that fundamental to them.
*5th Ed WD list, 6th Ed RH, 6th Ed AB, 8th Ed AB
I would guess Necromancy will be an Empire lore - the interactive map aleady talks about the Talabecland
harbouring numerous Witches, Warlocks and secretive guilds
and Middenheim should also have plenty as its the home of the oldest magic guild in the Empire. I agree the TK should not really have it,
You might get the little Waaagh in the journal.
Empire might have it, and potentially even Dark Magic as well, though even where magic was allowed Necromancy generally wasn’t (it’s what got Dieter Hellsnitch driven out of the Middenheim Guild). Plus, depending on what the spells are, some may not be all that useful if you don’t already have Undead units - the summoning and DD spells would be fine, but the likes of Vanhal’s Danse Macabre or Hellish Vigour not so much.
Tbh even if TK get Nehekhara in the compendium rather than the AJ I expect they’ll get Necromancy as an alternate option as they said most wizards have 2-3 lores and they’ll almost certainly have some Rulebook ones. In 8th Ed they got the Lore of Death (which while not Necromancy itself is used in it) and Lore of Nehekhara and the whole mortuary cult in general is pretty necromancy adjacent. Plus it’d allow you to represent the followers of Arkhan who really should be using full on Necromancy.
Not Online!!! wrote: About that necromancy, since we get the bombard seemingly back, what do you lot think are the chances for liches and revenants?
Unless they're Tomb Kings, I'd say zero since Vampire Counts are an unsupported faction.
I'm going to guess that even though VC won't be a faction the Harkon faction in the Border Princes and the other seemingly VC like faction in Sylvania will involve necromancy in some capacity
Mr_Rose wrote: With the Arcane Journals; has anyone noticed that there’s nothing to say the extra spells and items won’t be tied to the special army lists, kinda like 40K enhancements and stratagems are tied to their detachments?
Could well be for some tbh, though for the first TK one I assume the spell lore will be Lore of Nehekhara which should probably be usable by all TK armies.
We won't know for sure until they're released, but my understanding is that the two big army books are supposed to allow you to play "standard army", which for the TK requires you to have access to the Lore of Nehekara. You can't really have TK without that lore, which has always been unique to the Tomb Kings, and is required in order to fulfill some fairly basic functions.
I mean, I expect the Dark Elf PDF list to have access to Dark Magic, even though no further Dark Elf releases are to be expected (though I wouldn't be surprised if we see a one-off at some point). Dark Magic is a basic part of the Dark Elves, and it wouldn't be Dark Elves without access to Dark Lore. Similarly, you can't have Tomb Kings without Lore of Nehekara. That lore is part of what makes the Tomb Kings Tomb Kings.
As a result, I suspect that the Lore of Nehekara will be in the Ravening Hordes book, and not in the TK journal. Though the TK journal might have a variant version of it for a specific army list found in the journal.
Dark Magic is a Rulebook lore so DE won’t need a lore in their pdf.
Given Waagh magic is a Rulebook lore despite only one army using it, I’m dubious there’s entire lores in the compendia, though it does seem there are some spells in them according to the article.
Might be TK get Necromancy plus 1-2 of the others in the compendium, then gets the full Lore of Nehekhara in the AJ. Someone needs to be using Necromancy from the main armies given it is a Rulebook lore.
NB, while we know Lore of Nehekhara is coming somewhere, 8th Ed is the one one of the 4 rule sets TK had* which featured a full Lore of Nehekhara, so it’s not that fundamental to them.
*5th Ed WD list, 6th Ed RH, 6th Ed AB, 8th Ed AB
I would guess Necromancy will be an Empire lore - the interactive map aleady talks about the Talabecland
harbouring numerous Witches, Warlocks and secretive guilds
and Middenheim should also have plenty as its the home of the oldest magic guild in the Empire. I agree the TK should not really have it,
You might get the little Waaagh in the journal.
Empire might have it, and potentially even Dark Magic as well, though even where magic was allowed Necromancy generally wasn’t (it’s what got Dieter Hellsnitch driven out of the Middenheim Guild). Plus, depending on what the spells are, some may not be all that useful if you don’t already have Undead units - the summoning and DD spells would be fine, but the likes of Vanhal’s Danse Macabre or Hellish Vigour not so much.
Tbh even if TK get Nehekhara in the compendium rather than the AJ I expect they’ll get Necromancy as an alternate option as they said most wizards have 2-3 lores and they’ll almost certainly have some Rulebook ones. In 8th Ed they got the Lore of Death (which while not Necromancy itself is used in it) and Lore of Nehekhara and the whole mortuary cult in general is pretty necromancy adjacent. Plus it’d allow you to represent the followers of Arkhan who really should be using full on Necromancy.
Witches and Warlock also tend to stray into Chaos magic and having Necromancers also allows some potentially interesting variants which are vampire or Lichmaster adjacent or even reference Drachenfels as he is active at this time.
In a setting with no Colleges of Magic, you need to remember that human mages have no idea what they’re doing. They try stuff and see if it works. So some will accidentally stumble upon the combination of shadow, metal, and death magic that makes up necromancy.
Remember the rulebook lores are: Battle Magic, Dark Magic, Daemonology, Elementalism, High Magic, Illusion, Necromancy, and Waaagh! Magic - we know that high and dark magic are almost certainly elf-only and waaagh is greenskin only. We’ve seen spells from the Battle, Illusion, and Elementalism lores too and they look pretty much like random combos of the eight winds as you’d expect. So I feel like necromancy could easily be just another thing human wizards do and would definitely contribute to them being viewed with suspicion or outright hostility in some quarters.
The fact that anyone CAN do necromancy doesn't mean they will, or that the social mores of the day didn't consider it the gravest sin of the already sinful use of magic.
There's no reason to assume that any good force would deploy necromancers even if they can technically learn it.
Mr_Rose wrote: In a setting with no Colleges of Magic, you need to remember that human mages have no idea what they’re doing. They try stuff and see if it works. So some will accidentally stumble upon the combination of shadow, metal, and death magic that makes up necromancy.
Remember the rulebook lores are: Battle Magic, Dark Magic, Daemonology, Elementalism, High Magic, Illusion, Necromancy, and Waaagh! Magic - we know that high and dark magic are almost certainly elf-only and waaagh is greenskin only. We’ve seen spells from the Battle, Illusion, and Elementalism lores too and they look pretty much like random combos of the eight winds as you’d expect. So I feel like necromancy could easily be just another thing human wizards do and would definitely contribute to them being viewed with suspicion or outright hostility in some quarters.
Given DE aren’t core I imagine there will be other users of Dark Magic. In 4th/5th Chaos wizards could all use it as could necromancers/vampires (DE were just better at it).
I would therefore be very surprised if WoC and BoC from RH can’t use it, in addition to DE, DoC and probably VC from the pdfs.
There’s clearly necromancers and demonologists etc within the Empire, will be interesting to see if they’re allowable within the Grand Army, or if it’ll be a sub-army thing.
I guarantee that VCs won't be far away, just because the Von Carsteins were beaten in the Vampire Wars, plenty of others about.
I guarantee that GW didn't publish a whole article on warcom about how VC were a pdf legends style faction and the arbitrary fluff they made up to justify the underlying business decision that was made to cut them only to about-face a year later and release VC into the game.
You're not getting VC. Its not happening. You'll get something VC adjacent most likely, but it won't be the VC that you remember. The VC model range is staying in Age of Sigmar and only Age of Sigmar.
I guarantee that VCs won't be far away, just because the Von Carsteins were beaten in the Vampire Wars, plenty of others about.
I guarantee that GW didn't publish a whole article on warcom about how VC were a pdf legends style faction and the arbitrary fluff they made up to justify the underlying business decision that was made to cut them only to about-face a year later and release VC into the game.
You're not getting VC. Its not happening. You'll get something VC adjacent most likely, but it won't be the VC that you remember. The VC model range is staying in Age of Sigmar and only Age of Sigmar.
I agree there will be something - with both Mousillon and Walachs (Blood Dragons) factions being highlighted on the new interactive map it seems likely that a special army list might be made for at least the Affair of the Black Grail and have wizards using necromancy for this as well.
On that map alone there's 15 years worth of possibilities for release. Could they happen eventually? Of course. Will they happen in the next year or 2, no chance. Journals and related mini releases for the 9 primary factions will probably take 2 years alone.
MaxT wrote: On that map alone there's 15 years worth of possibilities for release. Could they happen eventually? Of course. Will they happen in the next year or 2, no chance. Journals and related mini releases for the 9 primary factions will probably take 2 years alone.
Yeah, particularly if sone get multiple journals. E.g. Empire could well have 4 in the first round to cover the 4 Emperors and their different styles, with a couple of armies on infamy and some bespoke special characters, magic items and themed units for each.
I can't see them taking 2 years to re-release their 20 year old model ranges. They are giving everyone rules for those armies on day 1. They don't want little timmy taking his mommy's credit card down to the store and buying their competitors products or 3d printed knockoffs because GW doesn't want to sell him 20 year old wood elf kits for another 18 months.
Theres not a lot of lead time associated with re-releasing most of these ranges - the plastic molds are already cut and just need to be rotated through production, they may need some refurbishment and TLC if they didn't store them properly, but some of those molds were in production relatively recently (the Empire kits were removed from production less than 6 months ago, for example) and so probably need no real prep to put back into service. Old metal/resin kits would require more work, but it seems GW is keeping those to a relative minimum and that work has likely already been ongoing for some time, it shouldn't be a significant source of delay. The real delay is going to be for new kits, but with an apparent 1-2 new plastic sets max per faction on release, this is a relative nothingburger and something that GW likely has already had in the production queue for long enough that I would be surprised if they don't already have molds cut for whatever new kits are to be released for the factions after Bretonnia and Khemri. Putting together new molds for resin kits for heroes and the like is pretty quick as well.
Theres really nothing to this that would require extended lead times to put those ranges back into production and sale. If you look at the 40k and AoS roadmaps, you see that GW essentially averages a faction per month for these games (by the one year mark for 40k 10th, there will have been 10 factions released if the roadmap holds up, with 3 more indicated for summer 2024 which will likely come in after that 1 year anniversary). Sticking with 40k, the Tyranid and Space Marine range updates alone are **each** already more new plastic kits than GW is likely to create for all 9 TOW factions combined, and then you have the 1-2 new kits per other faction, plus the more extensive range refresh for Dark angels with a half dozen more kits for them, and whats rumored to be more extensive refreshes/updates for Kroot/Tau and Custodes, as well as what seems to be a possible new faction or more extensive update in the "redacted" category.
AoS is kinda similar - the FEC refresh on its own is, again, more or less more new plastic kits than what all 9 TOW factions combined are likely to get as part of their relaunches (granted, half of them are small character minis, so its a bit of a disingenuous comparison), then you stack the rumored Skaven and presumably Stormcast refreshes this coming summer which will again likely entail more new plastic kits than all of the 9 core factions will receive on release. You've had a handful of new plastic kits every other month basically as part of the end-of-edition narrative event, 6 months ago you got a huge Seraphon update (which was again more than all the core TOW factions combined are likely to get on release), right before that we got a fairly massive Soulblight release (again, more than all 9 core TOW factions...) and somewhere in there you've also had a major Cities of Sigmar (again, more kits...).
Likewise, HH and Legions Imperialis on launch were able to put out a lot more new kits in one go than GW is angling for with these re-releases. GW has the throughput capacity to support a much faster pace of releases for TOW then you are crediting them for (especially now that its factory expansion is done and they seem to be un-screwing the ERP system issues that were slowing down production). My prediction: 2 new armies every 2-3 months until the 9 armies are re-launched. Kislev will launch opposite army #9 at the end of 2024 or early 2025. After that we settle into a HH like groove where its random miniatures releases every couple weeks for the various factions in resin with the occasional plastic kit, and a bigger wave of plastic minis or a new faction once per year.
chaos0xomega wrote: I can't see them taking 2 years to re-release their 20 year old model ranges. They are giving everyone rules for those armies on day 1. They don't want little timmy taking his mommy's credit card down to the store and buying their competitors products or 3d printed knockoffs because GW doesn't want to sell him 20 year old wood elf kits for another 18 months.
the difference is, they don't want to sell that to little Timmy, but to his Daddy
and to make that work they give rules for daddies armies in the basement starting with armies hardly anyone had, going full on nostalgia and hoping that enough people have still stuff at home and/or are going to 3D print things for TOW to have a full fleshed out community on release day
they don't need to get old models out that people already have, but simply want people to start an army every 6 months with the new models and changed rules.
like now everyone buys Bretonnia or Khemri and those that don't want to play with their old stuff with the important point that there is a large community ready over night crushing any other game that might have taken the spot and having 50-100 people events going on the first weekend
no problem if people 3D print the armies, as long as they do it to play TOW and promote the game
and to maximise profit, they need to give Timmies Daddy enough time to buy, build and play with the army before the next one comes out that he wants to buy.
Timmy's daddy is just as capable of going down to the store to buy stuff from GWs competitors and 3D printers as Timmy is. GW still doesn't want that to happen, it wants to sell those minis to new players, not the legacy WHFB gamers.
The impetus for TOW was the success of Total War Warhammer. It brought many people into the GW hobby, but quite a few were turned away by the lack of minis and factions they could recognize from the video game. These people do not have 10 year old armies collecting dust waiting for the rules to release, and GW wants to fix that.
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: Well that ship has long since sailed and was never much of a target anyway.
I disagree. Considering how many people got into 40k when I worked for GW simply because of Dawn of War. The target is real. That said I doubt we get much more than a new set of factions every 4ish months. 4 months gives enough time to pad out releases of the 2 factions and then release the next big thing. Also keeps it generally off kilter of the normal cyclical 40k/AoS releases. That would give us close to the entire classic range within about a year with just 1 left to do.
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: Well that ship has long since sailed and was never much of a target anyway.
I disagree. Considering how many people got into 40k when I worked for GW simply because of Dawn of War. The target is real. That said I doubt we get much more than a new set of factions every 4ish months. 4 months gives enough time to pad out releases of the 2 factions and then release the next big thing. Also keeps it generally off kilter of the normal cyclical 40k/AoS releases. That would give us close to the entire classic range within about a year with just 1 left to do.
I further disagree. The amount of people who would pick up the hobby once they actually discover the sheer amount of money and time involved vs just turning on the pc for what is for all intents and purposes a superior experience would be fractional at best.
I'm pretty active on reddit. I used to see multiple posts daily in the various gw subs from people who played TWW asking about WHFB or who started playing 40k or AoS after discovering it as a result of TWW. Even now I probably still see 1-2 posts per week conveying similar sentiments, sometimes spiking when there's a big steam sale etc. It's very much a thing. I can also say that my best friend at this point in my life got into 40k after discovering it via TWW.
I further disagree. The amount of people who would pick up the hobby once they actually discover the sheer amount of money and time involved vs just turning on the pc for what is for all intents and purposes a superior experience would be fractional at best.
How's that any different to entry/exit by people who learn about the hobby "normally"? The point is having three high profile extremely successful games will absolutely we increasing the interest in the hobby and people looking to try it. Each game has an estimated install base of well over 1m copies.
Since we're setting ourselves up for disappointment with wild speculation about future releases I want to see a new Empire War Wagon, not a steam tank.
I further disagree. The amount of people who would pick up the hobby once they actually discover the sheer amount of money and time involved vs just turning on the pc for what is for all intents and purposes a superior experience would be fractional at best.
How's that any different to entry/exit by people who learn about the hobby "normally"? The point is having three high profile extremely successful games will absolutely we increasing the interest in the hobby and people looking to try it. Each game has an estimated install base of well over 1m copies.
Because again, time investment and money vs the pressing of a button.
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Hulksmash wrote: Yeah, a fractional amount of 1 million people is still a significant number of new players to a hobby still as niche as GW.
GW is not at the size that can be considered "niche" anymore.
I dunno - compared to football or most sports - GW isn't even on the radar!
It's most certainly not ultra-niche, but its still a niche hobby that isn't mainstream.
I think one of its strengths though, at least in the UK, is that whilst its a niche, its really well heard of. So whilst the number of people who engage with it are few, the general public are aware of it.
In contrast whilst Larping has grown a LOT over the last 10-15 years to be almost a mainstream geek hobby (from niche even within geeks); I'd wager a lot of people wouldn't have a clue what Larping was if you asked them. Though most would know of DnD
Because again, time investment and money vs the pressing of a button.
Just as LotR famously didn't produce any hobbyists because watching a few films =/= same level of effort as wargaming? We're not claiming 1 million people are ready to leap onto ToW due to games, but it's absurd to say that a popular series of games delivering an IP to a large number of new people isn't going to meaningfully effect the numbers looking into the hobby.
Ahtman wrote: Considering the nature of the project I'm surprised so many people thought every old faction was going to get a full rule set and miniatures release.
Given that GW literally TOLD us what the plan was I'm surprised by this as well.
All these people have to do is read what GW has said. Instead they go off on wishlist tangents that only result in thier disappointment.
Likewise I've also been surprised by the # of times I've had to correct people concerning if faction xyz can be played.
Yes, I will be able to use my Skaven..... I know this because GW told me so.
Hopefully the next factions after TK and Bretonnians are Empire and Warriors of Chaos. Both are kinda integral to the old world setting, and I don't think it would be wise to have people waiting on those two for very long.
I collected WHF a bit back in the 2000s when I was in middle school. I didn't actually play the game, I always found that it looked too complicated, and looking at some of the rules previews it doesn't look like this has changed. Nostalgia has a strong pull though and I might end up collecting anyway.
chaos0xomega wrote: Timmy's daddy is just as capable of going down to the store to buy stuff from GWs competitors and 3D printers as Timmy is. GW still doesn't want that to happen, it wants to sell those minis to new players, not the legacy WHFB gamers.
and this is why Timmys Daddy is sitting around and waiting for GW to bring the game back, not playing something else just in case of not wasting the time and not be distracted when it finally happened
those people that want to do that buy something else have already done so, and in certain regions the other games/models are doing well
but there are regions were people still hesitated to even look at something else because it would be a waste of time the moment Warhammer comes back, and those people are now celebrating because they can say to themselves they were right (and call those idiots that said Warhammer will never return) and are happy to go out and buy both armies and whatever amount of books is necessary to play
and those people is GWs target group (same with Epic, those that can 3D print and use other rules were never the target of the new release)
The impetus for TOW was the success of Total War Warhammer. It brought many people into the GW hobby, but quite a few were turned away by the lack of minis and factions they could recognize from the video game. These people do not have 10 year old armies collecting dust waiting for the rules to release, and GW wants to fix that.
and yet with what GW is doing now they don#t make it easier for new people to get into that game
Army size, model quality/design, number of books, availability of models, nothing of those problems is solved with the re-release compared to 8th, the only unkwon are rules/quality/balance and price
if the price also goes with 8th edi level it does not really matter any more of the rules are better, you won#t have many new people starting the game and it will only exist to prevent certain people to wander off
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RustyNumber wrote: Just as LotR famously didn't produce any hobbyists because watching a few films =/= same level of effort as wargaming? We're not claiming 1 million people are ready to leap onto ToW due to games, but it's absurd to say that a popular series of games delivering an IP to a large number of new people isn't going to meaningfully effect the numbers looking into the hobby.
and LotR had 2 things going for it, good rules combined with low price
the moment GW raised the price to be on the same level as their other games, it stopped not many new people started and a lot of people stopped playing (not just "Ic don't support GW by pirating their material to play and promote the game, but actually stopped playing and never returned)
but there is still a chance that were are surprised by the prices of TOW and the new Army Boxes are less than 150€
Because again, time investment and money vs the pressing of a button.
Just as LotR famously didn't produce any hobbyists because watching a few films =/= same level of effort as wargaming? We're not claiming 1 million people are ready to leap onto ToW due to games, but it's absurd to say that a popular series of games delivering an IP to a large number of new people isn't going to meaningfully effect the numbers looking into the hobby.
Slight difference between a massive and well loved series of books and incredibly well received movie trilogy and a video game, don't you think?
The impetus for TOW was the success of Total War Warhammer. It brought many people into the GW hobby, but quite a few were turned away by the lack of minis and factions they could recognize from the video game. These people do not have 10 year old armies collecting dust waiting for the rules to release, and GW wants to fix that.
and yet with what GW is doing now they don#t make it easier for new people to get into that game
Army size, model quality/design, number of books, availability of models, nothing of those problems is solved with the re-release compared to 8th, the only unkwon are rules/quality/balance and price
if the price also goes with 8th edi level it does not really matter any more of the rules are better, you won#t have many new people starting the game and it will only exist to prevent certain people to wander off
I agree - from everything we've seen, this isn't a new to the hobby ruleset at all. But it doesn't need to be, GW already have products that do that and a well established and successful process. One of the big failures of Kirby era GW was to assume 2 products catered to all tastes and market segments, which simply isn't the case.
Egyptian Space Zombie wrote: I wonder how fast the boxes will sell out. I think they will go faster than some people think.
Really hard to say without knowing how many they've made. Most GW boxes do sell out rather quickly and this is a come-back of a beloved former core-game so they will probably sell fast. On the other hand, the vast majority of us don't play/collect Bretonnia or Tomb Kings. I'm guessing the Bretonnia box sells out day one and the Tomb Kings box lasts a week.
A bit more worried about the rulebook. It would be unfortunate if GW made a miscalculation there and that sold out the first week. Hopefully they made like a million or something so that they can keep it in stock indefinitely
Ohman wrote: A bit more worried about the rulebook. It would be unfortunate if GW made a miscalculation there and that sold out the first week. Hopefully they made like a million or something so that they can keep it in stock indefinitely
But GW don't like stock. They like to sell out of the first batch instantly keeping the fomo buying culture alive. Then the second batch of prints come late enough that the stock lasts long enough till the next newer bestest ever version is released.
Unless its a complete flop I think it will sell out very quickly.
I mean I'm torn between this idea that GW are selling ancient minis that are prompting in me the negativity I expected - and people online who seem to be desperate to get hold of them. But I suspect the second will win out - partly because I don't think there will be that many copies.
The idea GW will have printed a million copies of the rules seems well... faintly ludicrous. But then I find a lot of the debates on logistics here a bit optimistic. The idea GW can bring out effectively 9 armies - and handle the printing and distributing them all round the world - strikes me as completely at odds with history. They can't manage that with flagship 40k products.
I assume GW will continue pushing their strategy of creating artificial scarcity to manipulate cusomers into believing the product is worth more than its actual value. If they are successful, the price is not going to matter much.
Hellebore wrote: They're releasing as epubs as well. How can you maintain artificial scarcity when there will be infinite digital copies?
Cyel wrote: I meant those army boxes. I don't even take these "outdated paper weights 2 weeks from release" books into account.
Except for those of us with small phones and ageing eyesight. I can't read and digest a set of rules from a phone. A book is how I need my rules fix. Artificial scarcity is a thing with GW for those of us that need outdated paperweights.
Fair point, I guess others' eyesight isn't getting better from using the phones either.
I think the optimum solution is a tablet + free app (like the ones for ASOIAF or Warmachine). Big enough to make reading and navigating rules easy, but always upto date. Expensive too, but I guess when we see the prices for all the books, it may not feel as expensive in comparison.
Btw, my opinion is based on some KT games, one in particular, when I had to tell my book-using Hierotek Circle opponent "this is not not how this rule works now, please stop referring to the book" like 10 times...
And I guess it's the example of what Gabe Newell famously said, that piracy is not the fault of the price, it's the fault of the service. At one point one of the guys in our group wanted to give away some of his KT books... and nobody wanted them, even for free.
Ahtman wrote: Since we're setting ourselves up for disappointment with wild speculation about future releases I want to see a new Empire War Wagon, not a steam tank.
I want them to bring back the 6E Tinker Chart, so that we can put the War Wagon ON the Steam Tank!
The idea GW will have printed a million copies of the rules seems well... faintly ludicrous. But then I find a lot of the debates on logistics here a bit optimistic.
Just to be clear, I don't think they actually made 1.000.000 rulebooks. Just saying it would be unfortunate if they ran out of them with a rules-centered release like this.
Tyel wrote: The idea GW can bring out effectively 9 armies - and handle the printing and distributing them all round the world - strikes me as completely at odds with history. They can't manage that with flagship 40k products.
It would be a very special situation if GW suddenly released a full game system without having models to go with most of the factions. Especially when there is a market of second hand armies of the old yet official models, as well as a big market of third party generic fantasy models.
It would be a huge shift in GWs no model-no rules policy.
Most of the stuff might not be in the stores, but surely, they will sell their models.
Edit: Oh, sorry, I guess you talked about managing to have a decent stock for the 9 armies, not to have them marketed. My bad, should read the full post.
Tyel wrote: The idea GW can bring out effectively 9 armies - and handle the printing and distributing them all round the world - strikes me as completely at odds with history. They can't manage that with flagship 40k products.
It would be a very special situation if GW suddenly released a full game system without having models to go with most of the factions. Especially when there is a market of second hand armies of the old yet official models, as well as a big market of third party generic fantasy models.
It would be a huge shift in GWs no model-no rules policy.
Most of the stuff might not be in the stores, but surely, they will sell their models.
HH isn’t NMNR, with loads of stuff being unavailable on launch (or even now), and some of the other specialist games aren’t too strict on it either (e.g. Necromunda).
Will be interesting to see though if they drop all the factions at once, or just the ones they’re focusing on.
I can see all the old plastics CoC back immediately, but perhaps the metals/failcasts will wait.
The impetus for TOW was the success of Total War Warhammer. It brought many people into the GW hobby, but quite a few were turned away by the lack of minis and factions they could recognize from the video game. These people do not have 10 year old armies collecting dust waiting for the rules to release, and GW wants to fix that.
and yet with what GW is doing now they don#t make it easier for new people to get into that game
Army size, model quality/design, number of books, availability of models, nothing of those problems is solved with the re-release compared to 8th, the only unkwon are rules/quality/balance and price
if the price also goes with 8th edi level it does not really matter any more of the rules are better, you won#t have many new people starting the game and it will only exist to prevent certain people to wander off
I agree - from everything we've seen, this isn't a new to the hobby ruleset at all. But it doesn't need to be, GW already have products that do that and a well established and successful process. One of the big failures of Kirby era GW was to assume 2 products catered to all tastes and market segments, which simply isn't the case.
While I agree that this is a "mature gamers game" and not marketed to hobby newcomers, I disagree with kodos assessment that it won't be easy for new people to get into the game.
While model quality/design will be an issue for many (not all, but certainly true with Khemri), the fact that they are clearly intent on releasing modern plastics for the game (foot knights, big new centerpiece kit for each faction) indicates that this is a "now" problem and not a "forever" problem.
Number of books is a nothingburger to me - Battletech is a game that has an impossibly large and sprawling number of books needed to capture all the possible rules of the game yet has no issues attracting more newcomers than ever before despite that. Yes there are various resources and different ways of playing that help reduce that a good bit, but the "full experience" inevitably results in BT players collecting a small libraries worth of publications to pull together all the relevant bits they want to use for their games. If this was being marketed as a 40k/AoS like competitive pick up and go game this would maybe be a concern from a convenience standpoint, but its not and I don't see that becoming a barrier for entry for newcomers who don't really know any better anyway (especially when many new players are likely familiar with D&D and RPGs which are also a book-heavy experience).
Availability of models I don't really understand - GW are re-releasing all the relevant models, they might not all be ready to go on release but thats kind of the point of relaunching the game, isn't it? The models will be available, it won't be hard for players to get them.
Army size, and the costs associated, is the only potential sticking point... but gotta be honest, I don't see it. If TOW follows the HH pricing standards, I feel like it will end up being cheaper to build a TOW army than most 40k/Age of Sigmar armies. They are going to be selling peasant bowmen and men-at-arms in boxes of 32 and 36 models, respectively, for example. Dunno what it costs yet, but I don't that they go for more than ~$80/box. If the bretonnian and TK launch boxes land at the $310 price point to match the AoD box like I'm expecting, I will be stunned at GWs brazenness in charging modern prices for ancient minis, but also thats 60% of your army for $300 or less from discounters, and if you're playing 1500 pts instead of 2000 (as many intend to) you only need to shell out a few dollars more for an extra unit or two.
Tyel wrote: Unless its a complete flop I think it will sell out very quickly.
I mean I'm torn between this idea that GW are selling ancient minis that are prompting in me the negativity I expected - and people online who seem to be desperate to get hold of them. But I suspect the second will win out - partly because I don't think there will be that many copies.
The idea GW will have printed a million copies of the rules seems well... faintly ludicrous. But then I find a lot of the debates on logistics here a bit optimistic. The idea GW can bring out effectively 9 armies - and handle the printing and distributing them all round the world - strikes me as completely at odds with history. They can't manage that with flagship 40k products.
But they do? As I stated somewhere in the past couple pages, they release an army for both 40k and AoS at an average pace of slightly less than 1/month - each. From the launch of 10th edition through spring 2024 there will be 9 faction releases for 40k according to the roadmap, plus the edition launch itself, and then going into and through the summer another 3 on top of that. They released 11 factions for 40k in 2022. The Age of Sigmar roadmap has been similar with 11 factions (including FEC & the ironjawz mini-update) over the course of 2023. Throw in all the Warcry and Kill Team and Underworlds stuff on top of that. Plus the end-of-edition narrative books for 40k coming out of 2022 going into 2023, and for AoS over the past couple months going into next year as well. Throw HH, Necromunda, LI, AT, AI, Blood Bowl and all the other games in on top of that. GW has more than demonstrated the ability to deliver a very dense slate of products. Meeting the needs of the 9 factions for TOW is a drop in the bucket by comparison.
Focusing on just 40k and AoS - every one of those faction releases (lets call it an average of about 22 releases combined/year) has entailed a relaunch of the entire existing model range for each faction into new packaging, plus a number of brand new kits added to that faction (often 1, but in some cases the add has been a double-digit number of new kits). In total, you're talking about GW needing to release and deliver something like ~500 SKUs annually for these two games alone on average based on some quick back of the envelope math, even that might be a bit light). Then theres all the forgeworld stuff which I'm not even considering.
Lets contextualize that into TOW based on what we know:
1 core rulebook
2 big army books
9 arcane tomes
2 launch boxes (bretonnia and khemri, for now I assume the others won't get them but even if they do +7 SKUs, nothing groundbreaking)
7 plastic Bretonnian kits (including the ones found in the launch box)
6 resin/metal Bretonnian kits
5 plastic Tomb Kings kits (including the ones found in the launch box)
4 resin/metal Tomb Kings kits (assuming all the other minis shown in the tomb kings reveal were resin)
So far, 36 SKUs of which only 12 are actually distinct plastic kits. That is *nothing*. Im sure there are more resin/metal kits to be had than what we are aware of, probably more plastic, but this gives us a pretty good baseline to extrapolate what we can expect for the other 7. Averaging Bretonnia and TK out, we're looking at a total of 54 plastic kits put into production to cover these 9 factions, which basically assumes that Beastmen and Warriors of Chaos get ~6 new kits apiece since most/all of their plastics are already currently in production and would presumably just need to be reboxed. In truth, some of these factions I think are a bit more unit dense so I expect the final number by end of year to be closer to 70 plastic kits. Either way, GW taking longer than ~12 months to get model ranges for all 9 factions out would be, in my mind, a demonstration of gross incompetence - this should be relatively trivial for them based on these numbers.
While model quality/design will be an issue for many (not all, but certainly true with Khemri), the fact that they are clearly intended on releasing modern plastics for the game (foot knights, big new centerpiece kit for each faction) indicates that this is a "now" problem and not a "forever" problem.
but if those are in addition and not replacing the old lines, it is the same "forever" problem that already prevented those lines from selling in past Edtions.
Why did no one played Khemri in the old days despite having new modern plastic units and new centerpiece models, right because the old core models were not replaced
Number of books is a nothingburger to me - Battletech is a game that has an impossibly large and sprawling number of books needed to capture all the possible rules of the game yet has no issues attracting more newcomers than ever before despite that. Yes there are various resources and different ways of playing that help reduce that a good bit, but the "full experience" inevitably results in BT players collecting a small libraries worth of publications to pull together all the relevant bits they want to use for their games.
and now you compare how the rules are split among the books and how much they cost
if the Journal books only contain magic items and other stuff that can only be used by the armies of infamy in the journal, it won't be a problem but if those are for the grand army as well it will.
BT works differently as the we have background only books and the equipment for the standard mechs is not in a different book
Availability of models I don't really understand - GW are re-releasing all the relevant models, they might not all be ready to go on release but thats kind of the point of relaunching the game, isn't it? The models will be available, it won't be hard for players to get them.
remains to be seen, by now they only showed us a limited amount and no word if everything else will be available at the same time from those 2 armies
and a good chance the resin models will be mailorder only
Army size, and the costs associated, is the only potential sticking point... but gotta be honest, I don't see it. If TOW follows the HH pricing standards, I feel like it will end up being cheaper to build a TOW army than most 40k/Age of Sigmar armies. They are going to be selling peasant bowmen and men-at-arms in boxes of 32 and 36 models, respectively, for example. Dunno what it costs yet, but I don't that they go for more than ~$80/box. If the bretonnian and TK launch boxes land at the $310 price point to match the AoD box like I'm expecting, I will be stunned at GWs brazenness in charging modern prices for ancient minis, but also thats 60% of your army for $300 or less from discounters, and if you're playing 1500 pts instead of 2000 (as many intend to) you only need to shell out a few dollars more for an extra unit or two.
first I doubt that low points will remain as a standard for long (if at all), simply because those with existing armies want to use all their toys (main reason why 2500-3000 points became standard in 8th) and depending on what stuff like the Dragon costs in points, people won't leave their shiny new model behind and buy something else because it won't fit 1500 but rather expand to whatever is needed to use it.
For the pricing, well GW is asking 120€ for the battle of Macragge box and however thought that is a good idea might also think that taking ebay prices as base is a good idea as well
While model quality/design will be an issue for many (not all, but certainly true with Khemri), the fact that they are clearly intended on releasing modern plastics for the game (foot knights, big new centerpiece kit for each faction) indicates that this is a "now" problem and not a "forever" problem.
but if those are in addition and not replacing the old lines, it is the same "forever" problem that already prevented those lines from selling in past Edtions.
Why did no one played Khemri in the old days despite having new modern plastic units and new centerpiece models, right because the old core models were not replaced
My point is that the intent is to eventually replace. The new lord on pegasus is a replacement for a very old metal mini, for example, as are a couple of the previewed resin minis. It will take time, but it will get there.
first I doubt that low points will remain as a standard for long (if at all), simply because those with existing armies want to use all their toys (main reason why 2500-3000 points became standard in 8th) and depending on what stuff like the Dragon costs in points, people won't leave their shiny new model behind and buy something else because it won't fit 1500 but rather expand to whatever is needed to use it.
what I can say is that, locally, most of the old WHFB players that are picking this up don't want to play anything more than 1000-1500 points. They hated 7th/8th edition 2000-2500 point meta and have no desire to return to that.
I personally, generally prefer larger games in all the miniatures games I play. BUT because the standard table size available to me has become 6x4 (whereas when I was actively playing WHFB we played on 8x4), I am reluctant myself to play anything more than 1500pts, I feel that 2000 pts is potentially pushing it but am willing to give it a try. Anything more than that though and theres no point in even really playing the game anymore, as you basically line up your entire army shoulder to shoulder and theres no longer any room for maneuver or any hope of being able to get flank attacks against your opponent - especially if you have any amount of terrain on the table. The smaller games are more interesting because they allow room for maneuver and still allow you to have interesting terrain setups that don't render the game unplayable.
chaos0xomega wrote: But they do? As I stated somewhere in the past couple pages, they release an army for both 40k and AoS at an average pace of slightly less than 1/month - each. From the launch of 10th edition through spring 2024 there will be 9 faction releases for 40k according to the roadmap, plus the edition launch itself, and then going into and through the summer another 3 on top of that. They released 11 factions for 40k in 2022. The Age of Sigmar roadmap has been similar with 11 factions (including FEC & the ironjawz mini-update) over the course of 2023. Throw in all the Warcry and Kill Team and Underworlds stuff on top of that. Plus the end-of-edition narrative books for 40k coming out of 2022 going into 2023, and for AoS over the past couple months going into next year as well. Throw HH, Necromunda, LI, AT, AI, Blood Bowl and all the other games in on top of that. GW has more than demonstrated the ability to deliver a very dense slate of products. Meeting the needs of the 9 factions for TOW is a drop in the bucket by comparison.
I'm not sure GW have demonstrated the ability to deliver a dense slate of products. We've had shortages and delays all over the place.
GW is still going to be producing 40k, AoS, Warcry, Kill Team, etc etc - so this would be in addition to all that. I think 70 SKUs is a lot.
Horus Heresy came out 18 months ago and has about half the kits you are talking about here. So we'd be talking about a 300% faster rollout.
My point is that the intent is to eventually replace. The new lord on pegasus is a replacement for a very old metal mini, for example, as are a couple of the previewed resin minis. It will take time, but it will get there.
well, that is very very old model and was not even part with the last lineup (when the plastic Knight on Pegasus in 6th came with the codex, the dedicated Hero on Pegasus model was gone), I would not count that as replacing an old model with a new one but rather adding a model for a list entry that did not have a model
otherwise the Knights on Foot are also counted as replacing old models and not a new unit which would mean there is not a single new unit with re-release but just replacements for very old models
and those are still metal models, no hint that the outdated plastic is going to replaced with new ones or that GW even thinks about it
You're not sure that GW has demonstrated the ability to deliver 70 SKUs even though they deliver 500 annually for just their two flagship games?
Really??
As for HH, I count 39 plastic kits delivered so far (plus a few bundles and a whole lotta resin). Key difference between HH and TOW though is that 30 of those 39 kits were brand new and had to be tooled, which is usually around a ~6 month process on its own and one of the known bottlenecks of GWs manufacturing operation. That alone will limit the pace of GWs releases. In TOWs case however, taking those averages, we're looking at ~40-41 returning kits and 13-14 new kits to put the 9 legacy factions back out. Working with HH as a basis of comparison - 30 new kits over an 18 month period works out to 1.66 new plastic kits/month, or about 20 new kits per year. Based on that, GW *should* have more than enough ample bandwidth to support the estimated content slate for the 9 returning TOW factions, and then some.
My point is that the intent is to eventually replace. The new lord on pegasus is a replacement for a very old metal mini, for example, as are a couple of the previewed resin minis. It will take time, but it will get there.
well, that is very very old model and was not even part with the last lineup (when the plastic Knight on Pegasus in 6th came with the codex, the dedicated Hero on Pegasus model was gone), I would not count that as replacing an old model with a new one but rather adding a model for a list entry that did not have a model
otherwise the Knights on Foot are also counted as replacing old models and not a new unit which would mean there is not a single new unit with re-release but just replacements for very old models
and those are still metal models, no hint that the outdated plastic is going to replaced with new ones or that GW even thinks about it
I'll take your word for it, I don't remember there being knights on foot in the past but that may have been before my time. Nor do I remember the duke on pegasus being removed from production - I remember it being available on the shelf of my local store years later when I was considering a bretonnian army while I was in college (probably around 2007-2009 ish), but it could have very well just been old unsold stock, we had hundreds of old blisters and boxes of WHFB stuff sitting around until about 4-5 years ago when I helped them clear it out on ebay.
Either way, however you want to look at it I very much doubt that GW intends to keep these minis around indefinitely. I would be stunned if they weren't already working on designing replacements for some of them even while they are planning to sell us these old pieces of crap. Molds have finite lifetimes and don't last forever, usual useful life on a mold tops out at about 30 years before the metal starts to corrode to much to produce quality shots, these will be coming up on 20 yrs of age soon. In fact, I kind of expect that this re-release will probably exhaust the life of the Men-At-Arms molds (for example). Typically a steel mold with simple geometry is good for 1-1.5 million cycles maximum with really good maintenance practices and if you're willing to put up with degrading quality as it nears end of life - I doubt GW sprung for the best quality stuff or used the top end practices for tool maintenance, so lets just call it 1 million in this case, with the acknowledgement that the actual life may well be more like 750k-800k cycles). Then, figure that between ~2005 and ~2015 GW probably used around 10% of the molds cycle-life (figuring about 10k Bretonnian players worldwide, keeping in mind that the community was much smaller then and Bretonnia was not as popular as it is today, over this period who averaged 40 men-at-arms each - men-at arms are on sprues of 4, so you get 100,000 cycles to produce those 400,000 men-at arms needed to fill that estimated demand. put another way, they used to be sold in boxes of 16 each so this would mean GW produced 25k Men-At-Arms kits over a 10 year period. These numbers seem reasonable based on what I know of relative levels of popularity and sales figures, which is mostly second hand knowledge from people who had a good but incomplete idea of things - it could well be that I'm light in my estimates).
Each box of Men at Arms (as well as each starter box) for TOW now takes 9 cycles, as they come in sets of 36, so looking at the WHFB subreddit I see there are 83k subs there, and 44k members on the facebook TOW page. we'll meet in the middle and say theres 66k people in the english-language online TOW community, which makes up 20% of the total worldwide community (thats a guess, when in doubt 80/20 rule, I assume that the online community usually represents the most dedicate hardcore and engaged 20% of the community, while the majority don't follow warcom or actively engage in the hobby within the online space. I know within my circle I am one of a literal handful out of maybe 30-40 players of GW games who check warcom daily or follow forums, etc.). So the total current customer base is ~330k gamers, which will likely increase over time after the game is launched and more people get turned on to it by their friends or seeing it on the table in stores, etc. Of those, some portion will be Bretonnian customers- with Bretonnia being one of only 2 factions truly available for purchase on launch and having had a surge in popularity due to a combination of scarcity and TWW-hype, I'm going to guess that ~15% of that number will buy Bretonnian minis, so lets call it 50k would be Bretonnian customers, who will each buy 2 boxes worth of men-at-arms on average - thats 900k cycles of production on the molds right there.
Its quite likely some of my assumptions are off or high, its all just an estimated guess, but the point is that its very likely that the new game launch will result in a few hundred thousand cycles of life being taken off the molds within the next year or two alone. At that point GW will need to replace the molds - I think its unlikely that they held on to the original 3-up sculpts for these kits, and I dont even know that GW has the ability to use make kits using a pantograph anymore as they fully digitized their processes and operations over a decade ago, so the only real way to replace them would be with a completely new kit of digitally sculpted minis (unless their plan is to use 3d scanners to reproduce them digitally - but I doubt it.
Why did no one played Khemri in the old days despite having new modern plastic units and new centerpiece models, right because the old core models were not replaced
Because Vampire Counts rules were basically, "Like TK, but better.". And when TK got brought up to near VC level in 8th, VC then got another boost.
Both TK and Bretonnia were secondary tier WHF factions in terms of popularity, and I believe they were the opposite sides of the same coin: TK were too exotic and far removed from the core setting and Bretonnia was too vanilla. At least that's my impression from back then.
Younger me would certainly agree with that assessment of Bretonnia, I had no interest in them at the time because they felt overly generic and anachronistic relative to the tech level and styling of much of the rest of the setting, and their fluff in general wasn't very compelling to me and didn't seem to fit the gritty grimdark vibe of everything else. Granted, I didn't bother really reading the fluff, only the top level summaries of it online, otherwise I may have taken more interest in them. Really it wasn't until I learned, years later, about the original Bretonnian fluff (i.e. "Painted fops parade their finery amongst the mud and dung of the streets, ladies sit like dolls in shining carriages, bedecked in glittering jewels and tall, white wigs, while hiding their ghastly pox-marks and worse disfigurements behind rouge and white powder. The taint of Chaos is less apparent in Bretonnia only because its citizens remain blind to it, unbelieving and unwilling to accept its dreadful implications, hiding their fear behind extravagance and tawdry display.") that I began to appreciate the faction a bit more and understand its depth in a way which I think the actual current Bretonnian fluff wants to try to portray but struggles to do so well (and I lament what could have been if they had kept the idea of Bretonnia as being a society with a tech level similar to that of the Empire but modeled after France on the eve of revolution). There is an argument that of the main factions, the Empire was the actual outlier that didn't belong, as questing knights off arthurian myth fit in a world of dwarves and elves and vampires a good bit better than thirty years war era steam/clockpunk HRE - but thats what made the Empire so interesting and compelling as a faction, because that was distinct and different from the other generic fantasy that I had been exposed to at that point in my life which otherwise made Bretonnia seem so milquetoast and common.
I wasn't a fan of TK back then but I don't think it was because they were too exotic or removed (my first two armies were dark elves and ogre kingdoms, which are arguably more exotic and further removed). I also kinda find TK vanilla, in that they are Ray Harryhausen skeletons with the serial numbers filed off dressed up like totally-not-egyptians. In some sense I suppose they do feel slightly out of place and disconnected or disjointed from a lot of the other factions in the setting, and their overall faction concept didnt quiite fit with what were otherwise largely european (and western european at that) fantasy tropes. I think they would have been less of an outlier had there been a proper araby army, and had they featured factions like Ind/Kush that would adopt a similar regional flavor and help bridge some gaps, etc. Then again, lizardmen are similar but they always seemed pretty popular as well, though I think thats because... yknow.... lizard-people are kinda cool, as are dinos riding dinos.
My gaming group didn't have any TK or Bret players, we had one come in towards the tail end after we relocated stores (so technically I guess my group came into his group rather than the other way around) but at that point he was hanging up his lance and not interested in playing WHFB any longer so I never even really got to see them played. Later a couple new guys came in as Bretonnian "players", but they never actually played to my knowledge. They collected and painted and talked about playing but thats about it. I never really paid Bretonnia (or Khemri) much thought as a result. I find it really interesting that now that I'm older I'm actually more excited about Bretonnia than anything else, I guess tastes change as we mature. Its definitely scratching a weird nostalgia itch i've developed over the years, which is weird because not only did I not really care for Brets back then, but I also didnt much like WHFB and vastly preferred 40k (and was quite glad when AoS came around to replace it).
chaos0xomega wrote: Its quite likely some of my assumptions are off or high, its all just an estimated guess, but the point is that its very likely that the new game launch will result in a few hundred cycles of life being taken off the molds within the next year or two alone. At that point GW will need to replace the molds - I think its unlikely that they held on to the original 3-up sculpts for these kits, and I dont even know that GW has the ability to use make kits using a pantograph anymore as they fully digitized their processes and operations over a decade ago, so the only real way to replace them would be with a completely new kit of digitally sculpted minis (unless their plan is to use 3d scanners to reproduce them digitally - but I doubt it.
I agree on your numbers and the buyers base is there for sure
question here is if GW actually plans on keeping them available in high numbers or they are going with the usual estimated production run and leave it there preparing for the next faction rather than wear the moulds out
Well, I think the answer to that depends on what GW expected the anticipated sales to be, and how far off from reality they are (and whether or not they made any contingency plans, etc.). My view is their estimates are often wrong, very wrong, and there is more demand for things than they anticipate. On that basis I would guess that sales and production off the mold are going to run higher/faster than they had planned for and the kit will end up going OOP once they can no longer continue to keep it in production, at which point I would guess they would have to scramble to get the new molds cut and into production sooner than they anticipated.
If their forecasts were reasonably accurate, on the other hand, then they might already be prepared to replace the kit (or in the process of preparing) and there may be a minimal out of stock period or no out of stock period at all when its ready to switch.
It really does depend on how many kits GW expected to sell vs how many they actually sell, and whether or not they built-in any padding in that number or have a plan on how to address the situation if they miss.
Why did no one played Khemri in the old days despite having new modern plastic units and new centerpiece models, right because the old core models were not replaced
Because Vampire Counts rules were basically, "Like TK, but better.". And when TK got brought up to near VC level in 8th, VC then got another boost.
Because killing the guy that keeps the army together is hard against the Vampire Counts and much easier against the Tomb Kings.
Bretonnia was a French joke, down to having snails on the gorram sprues. I honestly always assumed it got dropped because it's something a British garage company might reasonably do but for a multi million pound corporation it's an embarrassment.
The names and language are certainly French (though I'm still trying to figure out how "Royarch" would actually be pronounced), but all the actually fluff is pretty much based on English Arthurian myth.
Lord Zarkov wrote: Also a hint perhaps that HE will feature relatively soon?
Oh, I really hope not - if any faction deserves to be last, it's those pointy-eared gits.
Tyel wrote: Horus Heresy came out 18 months ago and has about half the kits you are talking about here. So we'd be talking about a 300% faster rollout.
Everything for HH requires a new sculpt - as far as I'm aware, chaosomega's count included the old kits being rereleased, so many of those potential 70 SKUs just need a new box & assembly guide and they're good to go. Certainly, they'll need less work than a brand new kit.
lord_blackfang wrote: Bretonnia was a French joke, down to having snails on the gorram sprues. I honestly always assumed it got dropped because it's something a British garage company might reasonably do but for a multi million pound corporation it's an embarrassment.
Going by statements in court, Bretonnia can't've been inspired by the French - GW staff create everything from the realm of pure imagination, a bit like Willy Wonka.
And why would the faction be an embarrassment, in your eyes?
Its less a French joke and more a profoundly anglicised version of what french is. Written by a bunch of guys who probably knew little to no actual french.
I mean the best example is Louen Leoncoeur. Its a direct translation of Lion Heart, when the correct way to do it in french would be Coeur de Lion.
Besides I always thought the inspiration for Bretonnia was more Angevin Empire then straight French.
Commodus Leitdorf wrote: Its less a French joke and more a profoundly anglicised version of what french is. Written by a bunch of guys who probably knew little to no actual french.
I mean the best example is Louen Leoncoeur. Its a direct translation of Lion Heart, when the correct way to do it in french would be Coeur de Lion.
Besides I always thought the inspiration for Bretonnia was more Angevin Empire then straight French.
There are lots of jokes about lots of nations - includign Albion, back when everyone was not over sensative. Also Leon is I believe supposed be based on Richard 1 hence Lion heart.....
Ahtman wrote: Considering the nature of the project I'm surprised so many people thought every old faction was going to get a full rule set and miniatures release.
Given that GW literally TOLD us what the plan was I'm surprised by this as well.
All these people have to do is read what GW has said. Instead they go off on wishlist tangents that only result in thier disappointment.
Likewise I've also been surprised by the # of times I've had to correct people concerning if faction xyz can be played.
Yes, I will be able to use my Skaven..... I know this because GW told me so.
Sure, you CAN.
The question being asked is, will we WANT to? Will they be even remotely competitive, or will need to play brilliantly just to pull a draw due to codex creep?
Ahtman wrote: Considering the nature of the project I'm surprised so many people thought every old faction was going to get a full rule set and miniatures release.
Given that GW literally TOLD us what the plan was I'm surprised by this as well.
All these people have to do is read what GW has said. Instead they go off on wishlist tangents that only result in thier disappointment.
Likewise I've also been surprised by the # of times I've had to correct people concerning if faction xyz can be played.
Yes, I will be able to use my Skaven..... I know this because GW told me so.
Sure, you CAN.
The question being asked is, will we WANT to? Will they be even remotely competitive, or will need to play brilliantly just to pull a draw due to codex creep?
There shouldn't be codex creep at the start.
Later, maybe. But not when the game initially (re)launches.
RedSarge wrote: So... does this mean all the old actual multi-part kits are going to be re-released or put on the dread over-costed MTO?
I don't think they've stated all of that specifically, but that has been the implication. I would expect that at least all the sets we have seen in photos will return either as re-releases or MTOs.
We can take a look at what new players will be able to buy on release day for the core factions. Of course only Bretonnia and Tomb Kings will be on the official Old World page. For others one will have to search on Age of Sigmar page or go to other brands.
1. Empire: Flagellants, Wizards, Popemobil, Steam tank.
Cannot really start an army with this.
2. Dwarfs: Ironbreakers, Irondrakes, Hammerers, Longbeards, Gyrocopter, Runelord, Thane.
No warmachines and core units of shooters but you could make something expensive.
3. Wood elves: Dryads, proxy Treekin, Treeman.
If you want a pure tree army with no pointy ears than you are good.
4. High elves: nothing. Can proxy Lumineth realm-lords tough.
5. Orcs & Goblins: all Night goblin units, all spider units, all savage orc units and giant.
O&G fans could cook something up on release. Sadly no generic orcs or goblins, so thematic armies only.
6. Beastmen: all the old models are still here. Time has not passed for Beastmen since 2009 when they got their 7th ed. army book.
7. Warriors of Chaos: the entire range is here with some old, some updated and some new/proxy models. Best range for a core faction for sure. Even better than Bretonnia or TKs.
Side note: All AoS models are of course on round bases. You can either replace them with squares or leave them and make square movement trays. Put magnets beneath the bases and put them on magnetic paper cut to size and you can play both TOW and AOS!
Ahtman wrote: Considering the nature of the project I'm surprised so many people thought every old faction was going to get a full rule set and miniatures release.
Given that GW literally TOLD us what the plan was I'm surprised by this as well.
All these people have to do is read what GW has said. Instead they go off on wishlist tangents that only result in thier disappointment.
Likewise I've also been surprised by the # of times I've had to correct people concerning if faction xyz can be played.
Yes, I will be able to use my Skaven..... I know this because GW told me so.
Sure, you CAN.
The question being asked is, will we WANT to? Will they be even remotely competitive, or will need to play brilliantly just to pull a draw due to codex creep?
Well that's given in every game. How "competitive" try-hards can go for is something you can't predict without knowing sale departments plans.
But don't worry. Gw will tell you what you need to buy to be "competitive".
WorldEdgePlayer wrote: We can take a look at what new players will be able to buy on release day for the core factions. Of course only Bretonnia and Tomb Kings will be on the official Old World page. For others one will have to search on Age of Sigmar page or go to other brands.
1. Empire: Flagellants, Wizards, Popemobil, Steam tank.
Cannot really start an army with this.
2. Dwarfs: Ironbreakers, Irondrakes, Hammerers, Longbeards, Gyrocopter, Runelord, Thane.
No warmachines and core units of shooters but you could make something expensive.
3. Wood elves: Dryads, proxy Treekin, Treeman.
If you want a pure tree army with no pointy ears than you are good.
4. High elves: nothing. Can proxy Lumineth realm-lords tough.
5. Orcs & Goblins: all Night goblin units, all spider units, all savage orc units and giant.
O&G fans could cook something up on release. Sadly no generic orcs or goblins, so thematic armies only.
6. Beastmen: all the old models are still here. Time has not passed for Beastmen since 2009 when they got their 7th ed. army book.
7. Warriors of Chaos: the entire range is here with some old, some updated and some new/proxy models. Best range for a core faction for sure. Even better than Bretonnia or TKs.
Side note: All AoS models are of course on round bases. You can either replace them with squares or leave them and make square movement trays. Put magnets beneath the bases and put them on magnetic paper cut to size and you can play both TOW and AOS!
You do know that they pulled a bunch of kitw from the Age of Sigmar range because they are going to return for The Old World, right? For example, I would expect to see Empire State Troops, classic Orcs, and actual Wood and High Elves at launch.
5. Orcs & Goblins: all Night goblin units, all spider units, all savage orc units and giant.
O&G fans could cook something up on release. Sadly no generic orcs or goblins, so thematic armies only.
To be fair I kind of expect a mix of various different units across the army, as opposed to a 1 theme only armies.
Classic orcs and goblins will probably be back.
The idea that GW wouldn't just re-release all the kits that were discontinued for AoS, like the massive chunk of stuff that got axed for Cities of Sigmar earlier this year, is funny.
A bunch of units that will absolutely be in TOW have either been redone (Trolls, Ardboys, Chaos Warriors) or removed from the range (Empire Troops, High Elves, Wood Elves).
It's not just going to be Bretonnia and TK at launch, not when there's a pile of other kits waiting in storage.
It's going to be really interesting to see how GW walks the line between AoS and Old World considering that basically they could end up making both systems use each others entire model lines with the only diference between them being if you're playing skirmish or rank and file.
Even the base shape is honestly a bit of a strange one - GW could have gone round bases and then movement trays for Old World to make the two games entirely cross compatible.
Overread wrote: It's going to be really interesting to see how GW walks the line between AoS and Old World considering that basically they could end up making both systems use each others entire model lines with the only diference between them being if you're playing skirmish or rank and file.
Even the base shape is honestly a bit of a strange one - GW could have gone round bases and then movement trays for Old World to make the two games entirely cross compatible.
Given the recent CoS purge and which races get pdfs only,I suspect GW’s intent is to minimise cross compatibility where practicable.
And use of square bases is one of the main draws for the system!
Overread wrote: It's going to be really interesting to see how GW walks the line between AoS and Old World considering that basically they could end up making both systems use each others entire model lines with the only diference between them being if you're playing skirmish or rank and file.
Even the base shape is honestly a bit of a strange one - GW could have gone round bases and then movement trays for Old World to make the two games entirely cross compatible.
I'm not too sure how they could do it considering AoS models tend to be of quite a substantially different style and scale, they aren't quite as much Heroic scale as WHFB when it comes to proportions. The new models for Bretonnia suggest that they're trying to make things that are still in-like with the classic look and don't look too out of place.
Overread wrote: It's going to be really interesting to see how GW walks the line between AoS and Old World considering that basically they could end up making both systems use each others entire model lines with the only diference between them being if you're playing skirmish or rank and file.
Even the base shape is honestly a bit of a strange one - GW could have gone round bases and then movement trays for Old World to make the two games entirely cross compatible.
I mean, it's pretty obviously sales driven. Why sell one kit for two systems when you can sell a variation on the same kit twice?
I'm all in for the TK boxed set minus the crocodragon. How easy do you think that thing would be to flip by itself, or how cheaply do you think the rest of the set would go second hand?
Dysartes wrote:No High Elves is the best situation for a game to be in...
High Elves are why I got into WFB in the first place. High Elves are the first thing I look for to play as in any tabletop or video game.
Gert wrote: The idea that GW wouldn't just re-release all the kits that were discontinued for AoS, like the massive chunk of stuff that got axed for Cities of Sigmar earlier this year, is funny.
A bunch of units that will absolutely be in TOW have either been redone (Trolls, Ardboys, Chaos Warriors) or removed from the range (Empire Troops, High Elves, Wood Elves).
It's not just going to be Bretonnia and TK at launch, not when there's a pile of other kits waiting in storage.
GW can have hundreds of molds but they do not have hundreds of injection machines. Do you think they have capacity and time to just put in production hundreds of new kits along all the other systems already in production? No. At launch you will only have Bretonnia and TKs sadly. They even say so in the article.
Overread wrote: It's going to be really interesting to see how GW walks the line between AoS and Old World considering that basically they could end up making both systems use each others entire model lines with the only diference between them being if you're playing skirmish or rank and file.
Even the base shape is honestly a bit of a strange one - GW could have gone round bases and then movement trays for Old World to make the two games entirely cross compatible.
I mean, it's pretty obviously sales driven. Why sell one kit for two systems when you can sell a variation on the same kit twice?
Well Gw has always been averse to crosselling across its games - I mean Daemons of Chaos are not a starting faction IIRC and yet have a full range that they could sell...
Just Tony wrote: I'm all in for the TK boxed set minus the crocodragon. How easy do you think that thing would be to flip by itself, or how cheaply do you think the rest of the set would go second hand?
You shouldn't have any issues selling that thing by itself as long as you manage to get your hands on the box in the first place. Many veterans already have plenty of skeletons and will be hunting for the dragon and characters.
WorldEdgePlayer wrote: GW can have hundreds of molds but they do not have hundreds of injection machines. Do you think they have capacity and time to just put in production hundreds of new kits along all the other systems already in production? No.
Uh, yeah? Do you think all of the recently removed kits from the AoS lineup that fit with TOW were just tossed in a bin? Do you think there hasn't been any stockpiling while the game system was being designed?
TOW wasn't announced yesterday, my guy, and despite what people may have you believe, GW does know how to operate its business.
At launch you will only have Bretonnia and TKs sadly. They even say so in the article.
My error, allow me to clarify. GW will not let it be Bretonnia and TK for any longer than a month at most and I would not be shocked to see the two-week preorder for the initial two and then the next two factions up for preorder when the first release is done.
well, if GW already was stockpiling old kits, why did not they not start with the obvious faction were they have plenty of models in stock but rather build up stock for 2 new faction were everything needed to be done from scratch?
not like there is the possibility that those kits were removed because stock was running out and it was easier/cheaper to get new models done than making another casting run with old models
If we are making predictions I think it will be far slower.
Pre-order of the two big boxes next week, available in a week or two - so, mid/late Jan.
Actual Bret/Khemri kits in regular boxes to follow afterwards. Based on typical delays (they want the big boxes to sell out) that probably means late Feb or even drifting to March.
Which means I think the earliest you'd see armies 3 and 4 would be April or May. Possibly even drifting on further (although I think it would be ahead of a big summer release which tends to happen/go on pre-order in June).
Admittedly, this assumes they plan a big box for each army - which, while making some sense, has not historically been the case with other games. But it does seem like a clear marketing strategy to follow.
On that timeline it means they'd just about be in position get wave 3 through before the end of the year. Which is basically my sort of timeline. I think by next Christmas you'd be able to walk into a store and say you wanted to collect TOW and there were say 6 factions that you could meaningfully buy.
I think its fair to say some of these are a significantly bigger effort than others. Re-boxing Beastmen for instance that were still being printed for AoS and have not changed in a long time isn't a huge effort. Other armies - High Elves come to mind - entail a dozen+ kits (and bags of characters) which have not been produced in significant volume for a long time.
Maybe being mean to Beastmen - but they seem like an obvious +1 to throw into a release wave, since 9 obviously doesn't divide by 2.
Again, this assumes we get more Core boxes. We may not. They could just start throwing things into stores on an almost ad hoc basis - but that's not how GW's marketing has ever really worked. They will want to sell you the army and not completely cannibalise their own sales efforts for other stuff.
I think I adequately mathematically illustrated 2-3 pages ago that putting the 9 factions back into production is not the major undertaking it's made out to be and within the realm of what GW has demonstrated itself capable of.
chaos0xomega wrote: I think I adequately mathematically illustrated 2-3 pages ago that putting the 9 factions back into production is not the major undertaking it's made out to be and within the realm of what GW has demonstrated itself capable of.
I just don't agree with you.
If you are right then great.
Gert wrote: Because Bretonnia and TK have been OOP for ages and have attained Nostalgia status greater than any other Old World race.
They were the only armies for TW: WH1/2 that couldn't be bought in any real sense until TW: WH3 came along with Kislev, Cathay, and Chorfs.
Ergo, sell the ones that have the most hype first then bring the rest back.
I don't think people are fully appreciating this in particular. Bretonnians and TKs have been OOP for longer than anything else. Their resale value on ebay is absurd. Getting them out first made by far the most sense because they will sell by the shedload.
Gert wrote: Because Bretonnia and TK have been OOP for ages and have attained Nostalgia status greater than any other Old World race.
They were the only armies for TW: WH1/2 that couldn't be bought in any real sense until TW: WH3 came along with Kislev, Cathay, and Chorfs.
Ergo, sell the ones that have the most hype first then bring the rest back.
I don't think people are fully appreciating this in particular. Bretonnians and TKs have been OOP for longer than anything else. Their resale value on ebay is absurd. Getting them out first made by far the most sense because they will sell by the shedload.
That's GW's hope, one would assume. Me, I wouldn't know what to do with a shed full of old plastic skeletons. Lock it up tight and spare the world the horror of their existence, I guess.
I'm suppose new rules and maybe a few extra sales to people too impatient to wait for their preferred faction's release might give Tomb Kings a boost, but I'm not sure there is any reason for the army to sell massively better than when they were last available.
Gert wrote: Because Bretonnia and TK have been OOP for ages and have attained Nostalgia status greater than any other Old World race.
They were the only armies for TW: WH1/2 that couldn't be bought in any real sense until TW: WH3 came along with Kislev, Cathay, and Chorfs.
Ergo, sell the ones that have the most hype first then bring the rest back.
I don't think people are fully appreciating this in particular. Bretonnians and TKs have been OOP for longer than anything else. Their resale value on ebay is absurd. Getting them out first made by far the most sense because they will sell by the shedload.
That's GW's hope, one would assume. Me, I wouldn't know what to do with a shed full of old plastic skeletons. Lock it up tight and spare the world the horror of their existence, I guess.
I'm suppose new rules and maybe a few extra sales to people too impatient to wait for their preferred faction's release might give Tomb Kings a boost, but I'm not sure there is any reason for the army to sell massively better than when they were last available.
I’m considering getting the TK and pointedly spent some time over Xmas finding the left over sprue from the 7th Ed skeletons for my VC army back in the day so I now have 70 something reasonably sized skulls and decent looking spears to use when I build them
Well in anycase, I am going with Beastmen so it is not bad if they come "later". Just need euclidian bases
Of course, I am more then happy if there is going to be big, bad ass army set coming but that would require GW to do something unheard of: Remember the Beastmen.
Gert wrote: Because Bretonnia and TK have been OOP for ages and have attained Nostalgia status greater than any other Old World race.
They were the only armies for TW: WH1/2 that couldn't be bought in any real sense until TW: WH3 came along with Kislev, Cathay, and Chorfs.
Ergo, sell the ones that have the most hype first then bring the rest back.
I don't think people are fully appreciating this in particular. Bretonnians and TKs have been OOP for longer than anything else. Their resale value on ebay is absurd. Getting them out first made by far the most sense because they will sell by the shedload.
That's GW's hope, one would assume. Me, I wouldn't know what to do with a shed full of old plastic skeletons. Lock it up tight and spare the world the horror of their existence, I guess.
I'm suppose new rules and maybe a few extra sales to people too impatient to wait for their preferred faction's release might give Tomb Kings a boost, but I'm not sure there is any reason for the army to sell massively better than when they were last available.
I can tell you multiple tomb king players are waiting to see what they price the warsphinx kit at. Original MSRP was something like $65 USD.
I was watching Ye Olde Vince Venturella 2024 Prediction video and they bring up some good points about ToW.
Like; the lack of miniatures, new or old, to be purchased to play. CoS is 2 months old and half the line is out of stock and most of what isn't brand new sculpts is Direct Only. So if you don't have an army, you can't really get one.
The secondary market makes GW no money and going through the roof off of speculation
The ToW launch boxes are filled with 20+ year old sculpts for the most part (but will probably FOMO sellout) with a new trinket model so Vet players already own most of the box.
325 page main book with only 75 pages of fluff? That could be an avalanche of rules.
It was a good listen, not the usual overreaction you get on forums.
The ToW launch boxes are filled with 20+ year old sculpts for the most part (but will probably FOMO sellout) with a new trinket model so Vet players already own most of the box.
There's lots of vet WHFB players but the number of vet players with both Bret & TK armies is probably alot smaller. For example i have a large Bret army, but no Tomb Kings. So an easy decision of which box for me to get
325 page main book with only 75 pages of fluff? That could be an avalanche of rules.
This one interested me, so i grabbed my 8th ed. It's a larger book, and the breakdown is:
20 pages of introduction
131 pages of core rules
21 pages of army list & standard scenarios
117 pages of background
110 pages of miniatures
98 pages of narrative scenarios, campaigns, etc
33 pages of reference (which includes the Lores of Magic & magic items)
(May be off by the odd page)
Intro, Core, Army list & standard scenarios plus the reference section comes to 205 pages. Include the narrative & campaign stuff and you're at over 300 pages of "rules" for 8th. I expect TOW will be a little heavier in Core rules (thanks to the USRs) and the narrative scenarios, campaigns section could be entirely absent (that'll be for the future releases i expect) but at a glance it doesn't look totally off from the last WHFB release.
Tyel wrote: If we are making predictions I think it will be far slower.
Pre-order of the two big boxes next week, available in a week or two - so, mid/late Jan.
Actual Bret/Khemri kits in regular boxes to follow afterwards. Based on typical delays (they want the big boxes to sell out) that probably means late Feb or even drifting to March.
Which means I think the earliest you'd see armies 3 and 4 would be April or May. Possibly even drifting on further (although I think it would be ahead of a big summer release which tends to happen/go on pre-order in June).
Admittedly, this assumes they plan a big box for each army - which, while making some sense, has not historically been the case with other games. But it does seem like a clear marketing strategy to follow.
On that timeline it means they'd just about be in position get wave 3 through before the end of the year. Which is basically my sort of timeline. I think by next Christmas you'd be able to walk into a store and say you wanted to collect TOW and there were say 6 factions that you could meaningfully buy.
Yes, I too believe we are looking at a defacto 2025 release in the sense that new players physically cannot get models from GW for a majority of the armies until the 2024/2025 new year. This after they cut the number of playable armies in half (yeah yeah I dont count the pdf legacy rules).
I am positive after seeing the rules and for sure will play, but the staggered release may be the only pathway to a full release, and I guess I'll stick to my WoC and pdf Skaven. Probably going to regret it if I dont get the army boxes, though, so I hope they sell out immediately so I dont have to have nonbuyers remorse in a few years time.
Also; serious question. I recently visited Warhammer World, adjacent to what I suppose is the Nottingham factory. Does it work 24/7, as in do they work night shifts too at the factory? Is the capacity truly stretched to the limit and they just cant print enough models for the demand to be met?
Overread wrote: It's going to be really interesting to see how GW walks the line between AoS and Old World considering that basically they could end up making both systems use each others entire model lines with the only diference between them being if you're playing skirmish or rank and file.
Even the base shape is honestly a bit of a strange one - GW could have gone round bases and then movement trays for Old World to make the two games entirely cross compatible.
Given the recent CoS purge and which races get pdfs only,I suspect GW’s intent is to minimise cross compatibility where practicable.
And use of square bases is one of the main draws for the system!
You'd think that due to the armies they have chosen to leave off, yet beastmen are being brought back and the AoS range is almost entirely old WFB minis. For some strange reason they never got the AoS make over other forces have now seen.
I'd have thought that Skaven would be the one range they would want cross compatibility with, but I guess skaven sell well enough for AoS and beastmen don't.
Its all very strange not including beastmen at the start with at least an Arcane Journal seeing as the range is all but still on sale.
Also; serious question. I recently visited Warhammer World, adjacent to what I suppose is the Nottingham factory. Does it work 24/7, as in do they work night shifts too at the factory? Is the capacity truly stretched to the limit and they just cant print enough models for the demand to be met?
Its a power issue, or so the rumours go. They just can't run enough machines on the local power supply that they have. Apparently Samsung brought up the space they originally went to expand onto.
My bet beastmen get removed from AoS after TOW releases. Then they reconstitute AoS beastmen with ogroids and the like from StD and a big wave of similar new models.
chaos0xomega wrote: My bet beastmen get removed from AoS after TOW releases. Then they reconstitute AoS beastmen with ogroids and the like from StD and a big wave of similar new models.
I can see that happening, they haven't really done much with Beastmen in AoS, same for the Dark Elves. If they do eventually move the time line on a bit, they could introduce them. A way to give AoS a clean break from having old WFB models, and allows WFB models a more fitting home where they belong.
chaos0xomega wrote: My bet beastmen get removed from AoS after TOW releases. Then they reconstitute AoS beastmen with ogroids and the like from StD and a big wave of similar new models.
I can see that happening, they haven't really done much with Beastmen in AoS, same for the Dark Elves. If they do eventually move the time line on a bit, they could introduce them. A way to give AoS a clean break from having old WFB models, and allows WFB models a more fitting home where they belong.
lolwat?!
Dark Elves have had the most done with them out of all the non-AoS Elf factions. Daughters of Khaine is a whole faction, and Broken Realms: Morathi solidified Morathi full-on grabbing a Realmgate and the city it was located in...along with the Darkling Covens.
triplegrim wrote: Has there been any hint as to what Mercenaries are?
Is it dogs of war MTO, or just a few units of orcs and ogres, or something else altogether?
Nothing specific yet. Maybe it's for Regiments of Renown - given they've brought back even the Forces of Fanasy name, there's no way RoR don't resurface in some form.
triplegrim wrote: Has there been any hint as to what Mercenaries are?
Is it dogs of war MTO, or just a few units of orcs and ogres, or something else altogether?
The Bret Army Composition article had some basic info.
-many army composition lists will include one or both of the following categories
"Mercenaries: Some armies can include specific units drawn from other army lists as mercenaries"
(vs Allies- "most armies can included an allied contingent drawn from another army list)
Brets can take up to 20% of their Point value on mercenaries.
(vs Allies as 25% spent on a single contingent from Any Bret Army of Infamy or Dwarves, Empire, High elves or wood elves, with Woodsie elves and stunties being 'suspicious')
They don't list out what the specific units are, but I wouldn't be surprised to see something like the 3rd edition Warhammer Armies book, where each army has a 'mercenary contingent' of about (usually) 4-6 units that can be used by others (though in 3rd, allies had similar-but-different allied contingent lists*). Not sure why the Bret Grand Army didn't list which armies can be used as mercenaries like it does the allies, but that's what we know at this point.
*allies vs mercs in 3rd was conceptually weird. Mercs had a page and a half of rules, mostly about loyalty and the death of the army commander. But the contingents were.... odd.
For example,
The dwarf allied contingent was a commander, 0-10 Iron Breakers, 0-40 dwarf crossbows, 10-80 dwarf warriors.
The mercenary contingent was a commander, 0-80 warriors (one unit of which could have crossbows, max unit size was 40), 0-6 sappers, and 0-4 cannons. If you wanted dwarf cannons in a friendly army that could take dwarves, they had to be mercs, because... reasons. But that's ok, since there wasn't a single army in the book that could take dwarfs as allies (no, not even Empire). huzzah for 1980s editing.
I think the main difference will be you can have a single unit as mercenaries, but allies will have to be an entire 'detachment' so probably a hero, at least one core, max 1 special that sorta deal.
20 pages of introduction
131 pages of core rules
21 pages of army list & standard scenarios
117 pages of background
110 pages of miniatures
98 pages of narrative scenarios, campaigns, etc
33 pages of reference (which includes the Lores of Magic & magic items)
(May be off by the odd page)
Intro, Core, Army list & standard scenarios plus the reference section comes to 205 pages. Include the narrative & campaign stuff and you're at over 300 pages of "rules" for 8th. I expect TOW will be a little heavier in Core rules (thanks to the USRs) and the narrative scenarios, campaigns section could be entirely absent (that'll be for the future releases i expect) but at a glance it doesn't look totally off from the last WHFB release.
Nice to see some actual fact finding instead of the usual "as I remember" or "I reckon"s
Re; Models, I thought it was well known GW have maxed out their production in recent years hence why they never feel the need to drop prices/induce demand?
I got a load of old WDs for christmas. Even though I'm not really a WD kind of guy, the dozen issues from the late 90s are fascinating to me. Packed full of sales-bundles and how-to guides involving stuff not purchased from GW. Also illuminating that the minis were damned expensive back then too, if anything the value only became better in the 2000s, butt adjusted for inflation locally the prices aren't far off what they are now.
Ahtman wrote: Considering the nature of the project I'm surprised so many people thought every old faction was going to get a full rule set and miniatures release.
Given that GW literally TOLD us what the plan was I'm surprised by this as well.
All these people have to do is read what GW has said. Instead they go off on wishlist tangents that only result in thier disappointment.
Likewise I've also been surprised by the # of times I've had to correct people concerning if faction xyz can be played.
Yes, I will be able to use my Skaven..... I know this because GW told me so.
Sure, you CAN.
The question being asked is, will we WANT to? Will they be even remotely competitive, or will need to play brilliantly just to pull a draw due to codex creep?
There shouldn't be codex creep at the start.
Later, maybe. But not when the game initially (re)launches.
I'm expecting TK and Bretonnia to be head and shoulders above, say, Dark Elves or Lizardmen who are only getting a PDF 'update'. The better to sell models.
I've been assuming a $300ish price on the big boxes, unless there's going to be any price consideration for the old models. I'd be happy with $250 for sure.
200-250 dollars sounds really optimistic IMO. That would be a guaranteed buy for me if that was the case. 300 is dodgy though cause the tax would push it closer to 320-330 bucks, harder to justify for such old models.
I do wish we had more info on base sizes though. As i'm sitting on some unbuilt empire state troops that I wouldn't mind preparing ahead of that factions release.
Thargrim wrote: 200-250 dollars sounds really optimistic IMO. That would be a guaranteed buy for me if that was the case. 300 is dodgy though cause the tax would push it closer to 320-330 bucks, harder to justify for such old models.
I do wish we had more info on base sizes though. As i'm sitting on some unbuilt empire state troops that I wouldn't mind preparing ahead of that factions release.
I said screw it and am assembling the old models I have on their original bases. I'll either end up playing TOW or 6th ed so I'm splitting the difference and will have models based for both
Prometheum5 wrote: I've been assuming a $300ish price on the big boxes, unless there's going to be any price consideration for the old models. I'd be happy with $250 for sure.
Any and all price considerations for old models will just make the box more expensive than not, given the absurd pricing of Battle for Macragge atm
Prometheum5 wrote: I've been assuming a $300ish price on the big boxes, unless there's going to be any price consideration for the old models. I'd be happy with $250 for sure.
Any and all price considerations for old models will just make the box more expensive than not, given the absurd pricing of Battle for Macragge atm
Seems they are doing 3rd and now 4th edition starter sets. Assault om black reach next year probably. I heard a rumor they trash the molds afterwards, which might bor not might be true.
Might be a sign of what could be coming for TOW with IoB and Battle of Blackfire pass though. Model reprints but no box, rules etc, and an insane price.
20 pages of introduction
131 pages of core rules
21 pages of army list & standard scenarios
117 pages of background
110 pages of miniatures
98 pages of narrative scenarios, campaigns, etc
33 pages of reference (which includes the Lores of Magic & magic items)
(May be off by the odd page)
Intro, Core, Army list & standard scenarios plus the reference section comes to 205 pages. Include the narrative & campaign stuff and you're at over 300 pages of "rules" for 8th. I expect TOW will be a little heavier in Core rules (thanks to the USRs) and the narrative scenarios, campaigns section could be entirely absent (that'll be for the future releases i expect) but at a glance it doesn't look totally off from the last WHFB release.
Nice to see some actual fact finding instead of the usual "as I remember" or "I reckon"s
Re; Models, I thought it was well known GW have maxed out their production in recent years hence why they never feel the need to drop prices/induce demand?
I got a load of old WDs for christmas. Even though I'm not really a WD kind of guy, the dozen issues from the late 90s are fascinating to me. Packed full of sales-bundles and how-to guides involving stuff not purchased from GW. Also illuminating that the minis were damned expensive back then too, if anything the value only became better in the 2000s, butt adjusted for inflation locally the prices aren't far off what they are now.
I went into waybackmachine and looked at gws early 2000s webpage to find some articles and pdfs on skaven and whatnot. If you look at the model pricing, its clear that warhammer was more or equally expensive then.
chaos0xomega wrote: Anyone see anything about a supposed Spanish source claiming the new boxes will be €180?
only my own calculation from a few pages back based on the rumour that we see 30 model boxes with the HH price point and the leaked Khemri box
As this would put the total of models in the box somewhere between 280-330€ depending on how the sell the cavalry and with the usual 30-40% boxed discount you get 180-230€ box price
and 180€ with boxed discount for 20 year old models that are half a R&F army is not really cheap.
it is just cheap compared to current 40k and AoS model prices or ebay OOP collectors items (but compared to current 40k/AoS prices, building your own miniature production line, aka 3D print at home setup, is cheap as well and with the ~400€ per army price point it is also cheaper to just buy a printer with the result that you get better models as well)
PS: for the rulebook size, to put something to compare in
Kings of War Red Book has 288 pages, from which are 70 pages rules, 194 pages army lists for 27 armies, and the rest are other game modes, introduction etc.
the Green book comes with 156 pages of background in favour of less army lists
so 350 pages with 9 armies and 74 pages of background sounds reasonable for a GW rules system, though it would be very sort in background as this is usually the extensive part of the rulebooks but could be that they cut it because of the army lists
also GW writes rules in a way that they cover more pages than needed, like if just the rules are 50 pages they need a 100 pages in the book, so I expect ~150 pages for rules, 74 for general background which leaves 14 pages per army for 9 armies with 1-2 pages for army creation and information, leaving 12 pages for units with 1-3 units per page (based on how the profiles preview look) so ~24 units per army including heroes
chaos0xomega wrote: Anyone see anything about a supposed Spanish source claiming the new boxes will be €180?
only my own calculation from a few pages back based on the rumour that we see 30 model boxes with the HH price point and the leaked Khemri box
That would also make most units still in use via sigmar far cheaper. 30 gobbos for £82.50 atm, or a 40% discount to £50 and use some spare bases? Yes please.
Gert wrote: Because Bretonnia and TK have been OOP for ages and have attained Nostalgia status greater than any other Old World race.
They were the only armies for TW: WH1/2 that couldn't be bought in any real sense until TW: WH3 came along with Kislev, Cathay, and Chorfs.
Ergo, sell the ones that have the most hype first then bring the rest back.
I don't think people are fully appreciating this in particular. Bretonnians and TKs have been OOP for longer than anything else. Their resale value on ebay is absurd. Getting them out first made by far the most sense because they will sell by the shedload.
That's GW's hope, one would assume. Me, I wouldn't know what to do with a shed full of old plastic skeletons. Lock it up tight and spare the world the horror of their existence, I guess.
I'm suppose new rules and maybe a few extra sales to people too impatient to wait for their preferred faction's release might give Tomb Kings a boost, but I'm not sure there is any reason for the army to sell massively better than when they were last available.
I can tell you multiple tomb king players are waiting to see what they price the warsphinx kit at. Original MSRP was something like $65 USD.
No doubt. The newer kits by themselves aren't an issue for the most part. I'm looking forward to being able to buy some Tomb Kings kits myself once more, mostly for conversions.
It's just the same concern I had during the 8th ed update. People won't be thrilled by the ancient core units and either won't consider the army at all or heavily lean into third party options. GW's sales are disappointing and they see no reason to invest in the army. And round and round it goes. 8th ed performance of Tomb Kings must have been abysmal for GW to squat the army half a year into AoS. To me it looks like GW makes the same dumb mistake all over again, and I'd rather if they didn't keep doing that to my favorite army.
Thargrim wrote: I do wish we had more info on base sizes though. As i'm sitting on some unbuilt empire state troops that I wouldn't mind preparing ahead of that factions release.
While I won't be held responsible for being wrong (I should be a politician ), I was under the impression that the one statement we got outside of individual unit previews was a blanket 20mm go up to 25mm. Maybe others can confirm or find the article with that statement.
So while it's not guaranteed and won't be until GW sells their own bases (or more likely the army books get leaked), I believe Empire foot soldiers are reasonably safe to build right now compared to many other units.
chaos0xomega wrote: Anyone see anything about a supposed Spanish source claiming the new boxes will be €180?
only my own calculation from a few pages back based on the rumour that we see 30 model boxes with the HH price point and the leaked Khemri box
That would also make most units still in use via sigmar far cheaper. 30 gobbos for £82.50 atm, or a 40% discount to £50 and use some spare bases? Yes please.
not like the old models are still sold in their 20 model boxes for 35€ were going to 30 models for 55/60€ would be a light price increase for the Goblins, not a discount
and the newer ones won't be made available for TOW
chaos0xomega wrote: Anyone see anything about a supposed Spanish source claiming the new boxes will be €180?
only my own calculation from a few pages back based on the rumour that we see 30 model boxes with the HH price point and the leaked Khemri box
That would also make most units still in use via sigmar far cheaper. 30 gobbos for £82.50 atm, or a 40% discount to £50 and use some spare bases? Yes please.
not like the old models are still sold in their 20 model boxes for 35€ were going to 30 models for 55/60€ would be a light price increase for the Goblins, not a discount
and the newer ones won't be made available for TOW
My bad, I thoughts they'd dropped them to 10s. Likely a box of 40 then.
My bad, I thoughts they'd dropped them to 10s. Likely a box of 40 then.
20 Night goblin stabas cost 45$ on the aos website. I doubt they will be any cheaper on the tow site, even if sold in a box of 40.
You can't sell 20 gobos for 45$ and 40 gobos for 55$ on the same website.
Sure they can, they'll just put it down to having a deep discount on a larger box.
This is the same company/webstore that until recently was selling Thundrik's Profiteers, a five man warband containing an Aether-Khemist, for €20. At the same time a single Aether-Khemist was being sold for €24.
There was also the time they sold the fireslayer magmadroth for about the same cost as the fireslayer start collecting set (magmadroth + a unit + champions).
GW are a law unto themselves when it comes to pricing.
There was also the time they sold the fireslayer magmadroth for about the same cost as the fireslayer start collecting set (magmadroth + a unit + champions).
GW are a law unto themselves when it comes to pricing.
Cutting for specifics, but they didn't actually sell you the Magmadroth. It was the same thing happening with the Carnosaur+SC: Seraphon.
There was a note at the bottom of the product info that you would receive the SC rather than the individual item.
A return to some of the simple 'regiment' molds would be great to get people built and playing quickly, but they'd be even older models and look even more out of place next to the modern plastics they're adding.
It's possible that some start collecting box equivalent might be made available for the other seven 'supported' armies in the first few months of TOWs launch.
kodos wrote: Are we taking bets on queue time at Warhammer World on 20th?
I say 4-5 hours because they are not expecting more than 20 people
They would never greenlight project with such expectations...
they did only expect some100 people for the 40k release at Warhammer World were thousand showed up, I doubt they expect a lot coming for a "dead" game otherwise they would not have free entry
I am shocked by the reissue kits being run in metal. Seems like resin is reserved for new items so far, and we assume awkward things like the Trebuchet. It'd be killed if they sold the metal bits for things like Grail Knights as upgrade kits for the plastics you're getting in the starter box but they obviously aren't going to do that.
Glad we’re getting metal instead of Finecast. Whilst there was a certain level of hysteria about the latter, there’s no disputing it wasn’t up to snuff.
Naturally I’d have preferred re-done kits in plastic, but for now I’ll take what I can get.
You can't sell 20 gobos for 45$ and 40 gobos for 55$ on the same website.
They sell 10 Grey Hunters and 15 Blood Claws for the same price. Note these are exactly the same sprues, you just get one more of them with the Blood Claws.
Now I may be thicker than a whale omelette on this one. But those Knights of the Realm? They’re in proper Lance formation. The one with the drawback that the more complete ranks you add, the fewer of models will get their attack in,
I'm very surprised to see so many metal kits returning, last time they sold many of those models they were done in finecast. They must have remade the molds for those models.
I now have to decide if I want to replace my Settra with a good metal version, as I really don't like resin.
That is a lot of stuff to release on day one. I'm not sure how I feel about the cards etc. It was kind of expected, GW love selling over priced cards for all their releases. Serious case of FOMO with their cards. I don't really want to end up chasing them down in the future, should TOW prove to be a worthwhile replacement for older editions.
Its a good release, if only to see so many wonderful metal models back again! I hope the metal trend continues with the other forces in the future!
kodos wrote: Better metal than finecast, though their last metal models for Warhammer were not much better in quality (just less bendy)
Looks like it’s specifically to get rid of Finecast as well. Settra and the melee ushabti were originally in metal, but the bow ushabti and 8th Ed ‘I need a wee’ Liche Priest were never in metal IIRC bit now are.
And definitely a good thing too IMO. Even if I do frustratingly have Settra and Khalida in Finecast from a MTO run a few years back (and would have much preferred metal).
The whole point of Finecast was that they could use the same old moulds that they used for metal. However Finecast as a material was never fit for purpose. Even near the end of its lifespan it was never a reliable material and everyone avoided it like the plague in general.
So I'm not shocked that as they are bringing those kits back, they are going back to metal.
Grab a good file (eg 900grit diamond ones from Eternal Tools) and go to town on those metal mould lines and they will look great.
Overread wrote: The whole point of Finecast was that they could use the same old moulds that they used for metal. However Finecast as a material was never fit for purpose. Even near the end of its lifespan it was never a reliable material and everyone avoided it like the plague in general.
So I'm not shocked that as they are bringing those kits back, they are going back to metal.
Grab a good file (eg 900grit diamond ones from Eternal Tools) and go to town on those metal mould lines and they will look great.
The finecast molds had to be altered though, they could use the metal ones but they had to make alterations to use finecast resin. This means they have had to remake the molds for metal now.
Huh, they even included metal version one of the rarer Ushabti Bow -versions that they included as later release but for some bizarre reason was never even mentioned being released and it was practically Online Only, that was always Out of Stock, and made from Finecast.
Overread wrote: The whole point of Finecast was that they could use the same old moulds that they used for metal. However Finecast as a material was never fit for purpose. Even near the end of its lifespan it was never a reliable material and everyone avoided it like the plague in general.
So I'm not shocked that as they are bringing those kits back, they are going back to metal.
Grab a good file (eg 900grit diamond ones from Eternal Tools) and go to town on those metal mould lines and they will look great.
The finecast molds had to be altered though, they could use the metal ones but they had to make alterations to use finecast resin. This means they have had to remake the molds for metal now.
Yeah though as I recall the finecast also tore the moulds up as well. So chances are remaking them was a requirement. So long as GW had the masters to work from they could re-create those moulds ^^
Am I crazy or when they sold tomb guard before, was it in a box of 10? New box is 20 models looks like almost matching the larger box sizes in heresy unless of course I’m wrong.
Am I crazy or when they sold tomb guard before, was it in a box of 10? New box is 20 models looks like almost matching the larger box sizes in heresy unless of course I’m wrong.
Yeah, it was 10 models at 25€-32.50€ (price was raised at some point) so if its 50€-60€ then not that bad.
Am I crazy or when they sold tomb guard before, was it in a box of 10? New box is 20 models looks like almost matching the larger box sizes in heresy unless of course I’m wrong.
Yea. That's how gw lowers cost of models. Increase # of models, increase price but less.
They did that with stormcast, they did with hh. Bretonnia infantry will be boxes of 32.
Chief Librarian Mephiston wrote: Has there been any word on the prices for all of this stuff yet? Grail Knight kits, Mounted Yeomen kits, Battle Pilgrim kits, etc?
No. For retail items we know tomorrow. Mo items on saturday.
The article doesn't seem to specify when any of it actually, you know, releases. Is it the 13th, the 20th? The 27th?
I'm amused at how impractical the supplementary materials are. 2 56 card sets (army sets at 36), sleeves sold at 50 count.
Base sizes all over the place with infantry at 25 or 30, movement trays are 200mm sheets, and pre-lined for 10x10 sections of... 20mm.
Those sheets are actually 25mm on one side.
Granted, its still a bit of a poor rerelease when a new kit should have been made to match the new bases, but as someone that really likes the convenience of that kit and is unlikely to adopt TOW as the default edition, I'm very, very pleased to see it back. Only thing that would have been greater would have been to see the neon green beauty back again!
But otherwise GW can put me down for a bulk order!
The article doesn't seem to specify when any of it actually, you know, releases. Is it the 13th, the 20th? The 27th?
I'm amused at how impractical the supplementary materials are.
2 56 card sets (army sets at 36), sleeves sold at 50 count.
Base sizes all over the place with infantry at 25 or 30, movement trays are 200mm sheets, and pre-lined for 10x10 sections of... 20mm.
'On Saturday the 20th of January – the day Warhammer: The Old World hits store shelves'
Those sheets are scored by 25 on the other side.
What are you 'quoting'? That isn't in the preorder article (or anything else on warcom). Neither are the trays being scored for 25mm. (and doesn't help anything operating off of base 30 in any case).
The article doesn't seem to specify when any of it actually, you know, releases. Is it the 13th, the 20th? The 27th?
I'm amused at how impractical the supplementary materials are.
2 56 card sets (army sets at 36), sleeves sold at 50 count.
Base sizes all over the place with infantry at 25 or 30, movement trays are 200mm sheets, and pre-lined for 10x10 sections of... 20mm.
'On Saturday the 20th of January – the day Warhammer: The Old World hits store shelves'
Those sheets are scored by 25 on the other side.
What are you 'quoting'? That isn't in the preorder article (or anything else on warcom). Neither are the trays being scored for 25mm. (and doesn't help anything operating off of base 30 in any case).
I shared a FB post by WHW earlier, as they’re advertising a WHFB launch weekend event on 20 January.
chaos0xomega wrote: Also there's an obvious 2nd wave coming for these factions, no foot knights on preorder, nor the box set oldhammer models
Would it be fair to presume that these, metal, releases will mean all 9 questing knights will be released later in the year? Looking at how they organized the grail knights into 2x3, with 1 command.
How the new bases will look. And scale creep because I like whining about that.
Left to right, some Perry historical minis that fit right in with Oldhammer stuff. Next some plastic horses of the type that will be included with the new mounted yoemen. Note that these look to still be on 25X50 bases in the photos. Next some chaos marauder cav that may stay on the old size or go up, as they seem to be almost fitting. And finally the massive chaos knight horses. These guys could not stand next to each other or in front of each other on the 25X50 bases.
My shop has bases in 30X60 and 30 square, and I will be making 40X60 and 60X100 in the near future. www.proxiemodels.com
The article doesn't seem to specify when any of it actually, you know, releases. Is it the 13th, the 20th? The 27th?
I'm amused at how impractical the supplementary materials are.
2 56 card sets (army sets at 36), sleeves sold at 50 count.
Base sizes all over the place with infantry at 25 or 30, movement trays are 200mm sheets, and pre-lined for 10x10 sections of... 20mm.
'On Saturday the 20th of January – the day Warhammer: The Old World hits store shelves'
Those sheets are scored by 25 on the other side.
What are you 'quoting'? That isn't in the preorder article (or anything else on warcom). Neither are the trays being scored for 25mm. (and doesn't help anything operating off of base 30 in any case).
He quotes the preorder article.
Oh and those movement trays are just old ones brought to production. They were 20mm one side, 25mm other side. They didn't do new moulds(
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Egyptian Space Zombie wrote: The fact that this is not a limited release is amazing. It means I can get my FLFS discount on the box with no stress.
Mind you if you don't get it at launch could be a while before restock.
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: Not a single word about the other factions. I wonder if that six month spread actually is a thing.
People have taken much abuse for saying 2025, but this soft release is super soft. Not that I am complaining, just give me rulebook, a living game and some of those rank and file metal grail knight please. ??
We aint gonna see a broad release per facto for the 9 factions until next xmas possibly. But I'd rather they just release whay they have. Rulebook looks super promising at least. And its not an AoS aestethics model game either.
This set contains all of the parts necessary to make up to eight plastic movement trays, including: two 200mm square floor sections, 16 corner pieces and 24 straights. One side of each floor section is marked out in 20mm squares (making it easy to cut and measure movement trays for models on 20mm square or 40mm square bases) the other side is marked out in 25mm squares (useful for making movement trays for models on 25mm square, 50mm square or 25mm x 50mm bases)
Got to say I do like the modular movement trays as a material.
In practical terms, they can be a bit wasteful as sooner or later you’re gonna end up with odds and ends and off cuts. So I’ll advocate careful planning to maximise.
But, on the wasteful side? Single rank strips can be comfortably used as the basis for walls. They’re rigid, not too high, and with just a layer of green stuff either side and one of those natty green stuff rollers? Drystone or brick walls for your scenery delectation.
One can of course make their own movement trays. Only dicky thing is getting a suitable base material that won’t warp.
A stunning launch line up, and while not a game I'm interested in I might see if I can get a set of the "pearlescent blue swirl and gold ink" dice, as I rather fancy them.
Its also good to see The Old World released this early so that it gives breathing room for the release of AoS 4th edition in the summer. To those who waited so long, its great that your patience has finally been rewarded.
Hopefully this will be the beginning of a return to classic Old World games such as Warhammer Quest, Mordheim, Man-O-War and Warmaster. Anyway, wake me up when the Bretonnian Knights get released...
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: Not a single word about the other factions. I wonder if that six month spread actually is a thing.
People have taken much abuse for saying 2025, but this soft release is super soft. Not that I am complaining, just give me rulebook, a living game and some of those rank and file metal grail knight please. ??
We aint gonna see a broad release per facto for the 9 factions until next xmas possibly. But I'd rather they just release whay they have. Rulebook looks super promising at least. And its not an AoS aestethics model game either.
If we're using Horus Heresy as a guide, this shouldn't bee TOO surprising. While only two factions may be getting models right off, EVERY faction will have full rules day one. Yes, new players may be starved of options, but at least veteran players (like my three armies) can dive right in.
And gw never releases every army at once. They want you to buy multiple things. And gw isn't stupid enough to think people generally can afford to buy multiple armies at same time.
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: Not a single word about the other factions. I wonder if that six month spread actually is a thing.
People have taken much abuse for saying 2025, but this soft release is super soft. Not that I am complaining, just give me rulebook, a living game and some of those rank and file metal grail knight please. ??
We aint gonna see a broad release per facto for the 9 factions until next xmas possibly. But I'd rather they just release whay they have. Rulebook looks super promising at least. And its not an AoS aestethics model game either.
If we're using Horus Heresy as a guide, this shouldn't bee TOO surprising. While only two factions may be getting models right off, EVERY faction will have full rules day one. Yes, new players may be starved of options, but at least veteran players (like my three armies) can dive right in.
And it’s those existing armies which are the odd quantity.
Somewhere, I’ve still got my Ogres, on their square bases. Certainly enough to field an army right off the bat. Which, whether I get fancy or legacy rules? Means I’m good to go game wise with relatively minimal investment. And a game seen to be played has an easier job finding new players.
Am I crazy or when they sold tomb guard before, was it in a box of 10? New box is 20 models looks like almost matching the larger box sizes in heresy unless of course I’m wrong.
Am I crazy or when they sold tomb guard before, was it in a box of 10? New box is 20 models looks like almost matching the larger box sizes in heresy unless of course I’m wrong.
You are correct. TG were originally sold in 10s.
That's why the photo in the article shows a repeated pair of blocks of 10 models rather than one shot of 20 together.
I'm curious to see what the Nehekaran Royal Host army list looks like, if it's possible to build an army using all of the more recent plastics I may hop in on it. Mainly looking for an excuse to buy tomb guard and necro/was sphinxes. The snake knights too.
In practical terms, they can be a bit wasteful as sooner or later you’re gonna end up with odds and ends and off cuts. So I’ll advocate careful planning to maximise.
But, on the wasteful side? Single rank strips can be comfortably used as the basis for walls. They’re rigid, not too high, and with just a layer of green stuff either side and one of those natty green stuff rollers? Drystone or brick walls for your scenery delectation.
One can of course make their own movement trays. Only dicky thing is getting a suitable base material that won’t warp.
I hated those things. You had to saw the damn things or spend half an hour constantly scoring them to snap.
Overread wrote: The whole point of Finecast was that they could use the same old moulds that they used for metal.
"Fine"cast used the same machines as metal, not the same moulds. Everything was remoulded with parts consolidated (metal models generally had separate pieces in different moulds, or separate cavities in the same mould), sprues and extra injection points added, and the moulds were silicon instead of vulcanised rubber.
chaos0xomega wrote: I'm curious to see what the Nehekaran Royal Host army list looks like, if it's possible to build an army using all of the more recent plastics I may hop in on it. Mainly looking for an excuse to buy tomb guard and necro/was sphinxes. The snake knights too.
In 6th edition, if you wanted to take Setra you needed to take 50 percent of your army from tomb guard, chariots or skeletal horsemen with spears. You also could not take any liche priests but I believe every unit could cast 1 prayer. This was obviously before the snake knights existed. I'm going off memory, so I might have missed some details. My guess is Setra will be locked into that army comp, but the list wl probably change slightly.
Thanks Egyptian…now I’m debating if I’m forgoing my future wood elf army to get a mostly plastic (okay with metal too) tomb kings army. If the core is guard, knights, and big guys I’m in.
Man I'm glad I limited my hobby purchases over the last 2 months as I new this was going to be expensive. Luckily I'm only here for the books and I guess the cards since they are advertised and always worth getting.
Next question. Are the other "core" factions going to get a Core Box, or just an Arcane Journal and a big wad of individual kits?
Because, although there are some nice models mixed in there, I have zero interest in either Tomb Kings or Bretonnia.
If, say, Wood Elves are going to get a core box, I'll wait for that and get the rules and stuff with the models. Otherwise I might as well just buy the rules now when they are available.
You can probably look at middle-earth for an equivalent to that. 2 infantry metals are £16, a mounted and foot hero are close to £30. The other stuff will probably cost more because "new".
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: You can probably look at middle-earth for an equivalent to that. 2 infantry metals are £16, a mounted and foot hero are close to £30. The other stuff will probably cost more because "new".
3x metal Rohan Riders for $60 feels expensive but is a hell of a lot cheaper than buying 3x Grail Knights right now
Also, plastic cav kits seem to be $45 for 5x. That'd be fine with me!
SgtEeveell wrote: Next question. Are the other "core" factions going to get a Core Box, or just an Arcane Journal and a big wad of individual kits?
Because, although there are some nice models mixed in there, I have zero interest in either Tomb Kings or Bretonnia.
If, say, Wood Elves are going to get a core box, I'll wait for that and get the rules and stuff with the models. Otherwise I might as well just buy the rules now when they are available.
Two new boxes every three months? Six months? Maybe we'll get a road map at release.
Vorian wrote: I'm just hoping the metals are priced more sanely than MTO metals. Would like a lot of the Brets
almost every other manufacturer has phased out metal models because they don't want or can't raise prices to compensate the higher raw material costs, don't expect GW to not do that but still keep up the usual profit margin
Not the same price for Khemri and Bretonnia Box is interesting
Books cheaper than expected
Units from the box are not part of the first wave is expected but that the Pegasus Lord and AST is not the same kit is unexpected
Pegasus lord and standard bearer being different kits was known. They were presented as separate kits and the lord was only described as building a Duke or a baron, whereas the BSB was described as a Paladin.
About £200 for the Bret big box puts it firmly in the "wait and see what happens" category for me. Not prepared to risk that sort of money so early in the new year without knowing the level of support and required investment to keep playing.
Still no mention of app at launch which is another turn off for me.
I really feel like a lot of you guys still don't understand what kind of a product line this is or have realistic expectations of the kind of support to expect.
The TK big set being just under the cost of Ash wastes set in EU is surprising.
Necrosphinx is about €60.
The movement trays are about €32.50.
I'm honestly overall pleased if that is the sort of prices we are looking at. The movement trays are a touch on the ridiculous side, I was really expecting them to be about €20. I'm a big fan of them, they are a wonderful convenience but I do hope I can do my bulk order via FLGS instead.
€60 for a big kit is pretty good, I was really expecting AoS pricing here.
I thought the launch sets were going to be €300+, and if they are not launch sets but rather permanent products I can see them being great value via FLGS.
I suspect we will be hit hard with the cost of metal models, I started collecting MESBG models during the pandemic, so I've seen how awful the current metal pricing is.
The double sized infantry sets ie: Tomb Guard look to be about €65. Not totally awful, at least you get a single unit in one go. But goodbye building an army up on a budget (Tales of four gamers would suck with these modern sizes/prices. If they could even afford it... everyone month would just be a single unit boxset. )
Sunno wrote: About £200 for the Bret big box puts it firmly in the "wait and see what happens" category for me. Not prepared to risk that sort of money so early in the new year without knowing the level of support and required investment to keep playing.
Still no mention of app at launch which is another turn off for me.
I think the TK one is just under the £185 of the Ash Wastes, so presumably the Brets are ~£150?
About as expected, the only thing that caught me off guard was the cost of the movement trays. Those are way too overcosted IMO and most players will need a bunch of them.
Sunno wrote: About £200 for the Bret big box puts it firmly in the "wait and see what happens" category for me. Not prepared to risk that sort of money so early in the new year without knowing the level of support and required investment to keep playing.
Still no mention of app at launch which is another turn off for me.
I think the TK one is just under the £185 of the Ash Wastes, so presumably the Brets are ~£150?
Haven't found $255 but $250 is €200 and £164. I could be tempted by the Bretonnian set at around £135 after discounts.
I see Bretonnian Foot Knights on the price list but not in todays article.
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: You can probably look at middle-earth for an equivalent to that. 2 infantry metals are £16, a mounted and foot hero are close to £30. The other stuff will probably cost more because "new".
3x metal Rohan Riders for $60 feels expensive but is a hell of a lot cheaper than buying 3x Grail Knights right now
Also, plastic cav kits seem to be $45 for 5x. That'd be fine with me!
$9 a model for cav you need to buy in bulk seems fine?!?!?!
Just noticed this lists the knights of the realm on foot, even though warcom doesnt list them. Ask is $80, same price as 20 tomb guard. I had assumed they'd come in boxes of 10 but looks like boxes of 20?
).
), I was under the impression that the one statement we got outside of individual unit previews was a blanket 20mm go up to 25mm. Maybe others can confirm or find the article with that statement.
