$80 for 10 though is very expensive even for new sculpts for comparison 10 SCE are $65 and the new Steelhelms are $55 so I could see 20 for $80

It would be the first time they've done preview pics that didn't show the total amount you get in the box.

Again,they said that units will come in boxes of maximum size.

These regiments and other future regiments are returning in boxes that contain enough plastic miniatures to make a full regiment, not just a rank or two.

The grail knight command is from the old grail knight box. But where are the other three from?

Technically speaking the preview box did show 20, just separated in two units of 10 with different weapons. I assumed that meant a box of 10 but its possible its a box of 20 that is built w 10 of each loadout or something?

 triplegrim wrote:
The grail knight command is from the old grail knight box. But where are the other three from?

They're the command figures, just made available separately.

Also found this image on twitter:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Again,they said that units will come in boxes of maximum size.

These regiments and other future regiments are returning in boxes that contain enough plastic miniatures to make a full regiment, not just a rank or two.

Bad claim. As there's no maximum sizes obviously they don't come with max size. Or you think there's infinite amount of grey knights in box? After all unit size is 3+. No maximum

 triplegrim wrote:
The grail knight command is from the old grail knight box. But where are the other three from?

Two of them appear to have the same heads as the champion and standard bearer, just with lance arms.

 Shakalooloo wrote:

 triplegrim wrote:
The grail knight command is from the old grail knight box. But where are the other three from?

Two of them appear to have the same heads as the champion and standard bearer, just with lance arms.

... old Warhammer miniatures often just had upgrade parts to normal troopers to make command.

 Sotahullu wrote:
Well Movement Trays at 32.50€ is on expensive side but it all depends how much you get for that sum.

And there is alternatives for movement trays so it is not doom & gloom on that part.

Why would any hobbyist buy these ones instead of just buying from the plethora of cheap laser cut ones you can buy online? (Well, I assume so, Australia had a few local makers so surely larger markets had then, and will have them start up again)

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
I'm sorry, but those sorts of prices for models that old is disgustingly foul.

GW releasing old kits was always going to be expensive, otherwise sales for the AoS equivalents would start to dry up. (Not that I'd prefer to see better pricing on this release but it was never going to happen)

I supplement my collection with a ton of cheaper alternatives and I have a tendency to pull as much out of a GW kit as I can. eg: I've brought a mountain load of the start collecting kits over the years, and stretch the contents as much as I can, or use things like victrix, oathmark and warlord games bits to maximise my collection.

As an example a box of Goblins is likely to cost €65 for 40 (going by TK leaked prices). I'd buy that and a set of the Victrix chariots and a box of oathmark wolf riders. Increase in starting cost sure, but I now have two units of goblins (with fillers to save some goblins), three wolf chariots and a unit or two of wolf riders. Same with TK, I'll buy the launch set and with all the left over parts I'll grab another big box of warlord game skeletons and add some TK bits to stretch the units out even more.

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
Nearly 400 for tomb kings when you total the books on top. That has to be the most expensive start i've ever seen them do.

They're going down the stupid route of assuming the grogs will pay whatever to get their game back, rather than trying to relaunch it and breathe new life into it by capturing people. They really needed to do a box set with Age of Darkness/Blood Bowl Season 2 levels of value to draw new people back in. Sadly they haven't - perhaps we might see something later in the year that achieves that, while this is the vanguard precisely for the grogs. Oh well I've got all my digits crossed that this is successful, I'll be picking up the Bret stuff so I don't have to pay awful eBay prices if the game does fail.

 Hellebore wrote:

 Shakalooloo wrote:

 triplegrim wrote:
The grail knight command is from the old grail knight box. But where are the other three from?

Two of them appear to have the same heads as the champion and standard bearer, just with lance arms.

... old Warhammer miniatures often just had upgrade parts to normal troopers to make command.

Ergo, they probably came from the same box.

GW wrote:The Common Magic Items set includes 56 cards, and the Lores of Magic set has 56 cards covering eight lores of magic. You can also protect your cards with a set of 50 sleeves featuring the Warhammer: The Old World logo on the backs.

Come on GW - Would it have killed you to put 56 sleeves in the pack?

chaos0xomega wrote:
Also found this image on twitter:

Seeing these definitively from the flank, does anyone think the knights on foot are extremely chunky? Not that they are Obese, but they look rather over-large.

No, they look fine? Though they look more like nuhammer scale, I'm guessing they're bigger than the older minis

Difficult to tell without any other miniatures nearby to compare. Plus you'd expect a Knight to be more well fed than a peasant anyway, after all weight was a measure of wealth/success for a long time. Plus I'm not sure why that picture is news to anyone, hasn't it been around for months?

Overall what surprises me most about this release is the sheer scale of it in week one. I just do not know how anyone is expected to keep up with it. Doubly so in January when a lot of GW's market will be spent out post Christmas.

The fluff for bretonnia does literally say that the average knight stands head and shoulders above the typical peasant due to their better diets and whatnot

Ash Wastes is $489 in Oz. If the TK box is slightly less than the Ash Wastes box in the US, then we're looking at probably $440-460 for those boxes. Outrageous, but not unexpected.

 Mallo wrote:
Necrosphinx is about €60.

The price is the same as a Treeman in the US, which is AUD$110 here.

So that's a 37% price increase over what it was when it was before the End Times.

 Thargrim wrote:
Those are way too overcosted IMO and most players will need a bunch of them.

The second half of this sentence explains the first half.

And people are forgetting that those movement trays are great for terrain.

...

... or you could buy textured plasticard and get 4 times the amount of material for the same price, with a wider variety of patterns

Ushabti with bows and the 8th edition Liche in metal?? Sign me up! Those where never produced in metal so that's gonna be fun!

The Liche I wasn't that big of a fan, and being Finecast (with lots of flaws) and already having like 8+ of them when it came out I skipped it.

The Ushabti with bows I have like 7 of them. Depending how fieldable they are, I could get 2 units of 5 of those with an extra kit!

That's pretty much all I'll need for minis regarding any old units, I have more than enough of everything so I'll focus on the newer stuff.

You can make movement trays for basically free if you want. Cereal boxes or any other cardboard. Glue multiple layers to make them thicker if you want.

I would never waste the obscene money gw wants on plastic movement trays.


The ones I built for my kow armies were made from scrap Masonite with stirrer sticks glued around the edges and trimmed to fit.

Looked great and were basically free.

I’m going to start 3D printing custom movement trays for myself. I’m going to make sure to include little slots for magnets so I can magnetize models to the tray.

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
I'm sorry, but those sorts of prices for models that old is disgustingly foul.

Yes. Over 300 USD for a 1250 point army with the two additional books is wild. Particularly when the vast majority of models are extremely old sculpts.

 caladancid wrote:
Yes. Over 300 USD for a 1250 point army with the two additional books is wild. Particularly when the vast majority of models are extremely old sculpts.

That's inflation since the game was cancelled added to the nostalgia cost unfortunately.

Anyone with armies still laying around, that also like the new rules, aren't paying much for rules and army lists. GW isn't getting anything from them.

Anyone who just wanted a few more of the old mini's to add to an army they have and missed out years ago but doesn't want to pay the (current) wild scarcity prices on e-bay, can grab those few new again.

Anyone suffering from nostalgia with friends who haven't played since Undead and Chaos were 1 book armies (respectively) in 4th or 5th edition can give this a go. (Me and my friends)

But anyone else, especially younger persons and persons interested because they were exposed by the Total War series will likely be dissuaded.

Honestly out of all these categories I am not sure where GW thinks the bulk of their money will come from. Probably groups 2 and 3. Because they aren't getting much from 1 and 4.

As expected the pricing kerbs my enthusiasm a bit but it's not all bad.

Not surprised the Bretonnian Lord on Pegasus is not available separately at launch. Just hope it doesn't take a year before he is.

Tempted to convert the Pegasus banner bearer into a Duke or Baron but probably not the best idea for me lol.

Probably have to make custom movement trays for the Knights wedge formation. Rectangular tray might not work so well.

Could be wrong but I thought the Grail Knights used to have little crests and designs on the horses heads too, out of metal. Maybe they were alternative horse heads, can't remember exactly. Anyway the re-release version doesn't have those. Have to try find my old Bretonnian book to double check. Maybe it was just on heroes.

Those Bretonnian Foot Knights, with the increase in base size I guess these are on 25mm. Meaning I doubt GW would have put them on the old 20mm. I think they look great but agree they look a bit bigger than other models in the range now. Don't think it's a problem though. If they come in a box of 10 that's really expensive. If it's 20 not so bad. Obviously if the box includes both weapon options (swords and halberds) that could explain why the cost is high.

Mounted yeoman is nice surprise at launch.
Archers and Men at Arms not separately yet, with the Lord, really pushes new players to go for the box set. Hardly surprising. As I already have some old units I thought I could pick and choose units to add but looks like I'll have to wait for further releases now.

Wonder when Wave 2 hits.

Personally I'm kind of interested in the journal with extra info/rules especially with the alternative force organisation. Errantry crusades and exiled Knights. Had been hoping for some kind of crusade option to allow for a mercenary unit or allies contingent.
Bretonnian Knights with allied Knights who have been on crusade?
Bretonnia force with Wood Elves allies?
Bretonnia force with Merc Giant?
Hope there's rules leaks before release.

Having said all that those Tomb Kings do look like such a great themed force too.

lost_lilliputian wrote:
As expected the pricing kerbs my enthusiasm a bit but it's not all bad.
Could be wrong but I thought the Grail Knights used to have little crests and designs on the horses heads too, out of metal. Maybe they were alternative horse heads, can't remember exactly. Anyway the re-release version doesn't have those. Have to try find my old Bretonnian book to double check. Maybe it was just on heroes.

The 5th Edition ones did, but I don't recall the 6th edition ones having them.

That said, I'd spend so much if GW ever did a MTO of 5th Ed Brets. Happy to see the mounted squires available, they are one thing Mt 5th Ed army is really lacking.

 Dawnbringer wrote:

lost_lilliputian wrote:
As expected the pricing kerbs my enthusiasm a bit but it's not all bad.
Could be wrong but I thought the Grail Knights used to have little crests and designs on the horses heads too, out of metal. Maybe they were alternative horse heads, can't remember exactly. Anyway the re-release version doesn't have those. Have to try find my old Bretonnian book to double check. Maybe it was just on heroes.

The 5th Edition ones did, but I don't recall the 6th edition ones having them.

That said, I'd spend so much if GW ever did a MTO of 5th Ed Brets. Happy to see the mounted squires available, they are one thing Mt 5th Ed army is really lacking.

Thanks for that! It probably explains why and why I was also a little confused

The big Bretonnian army arrayed looks cool and has me tempted, but I think I can resist, especially when I think back to how much I dislike the proportions of the 6th edition Bretonnian models. Also I haven't liked what I've seen of the rules so far.

I actually have a bunch of Bretonnians that I should probably try to sell, when the Australian prices come out it'll give a bit of a guide of how much I might be able to get rid of my old models for.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dawnbringer wrote:

lost_lilliputian wrote:
As expected the pricing kerbs my enthusiasm a bit but it's not all bad.
Could be wrong but I thought the Grail Knights used to have little crests and designs on the horses heads too, out of metal. Maybe they were alternative horse heads, can't remember exactly. Anyway the re-release version doesn't have those. Have to try find my old Bretonnian book to double check. Maybe it was just on heroes.

The 5th Edition ones did, but I don't recall the 6th edition ones having them.

That said, I'd spend so much if GW ever did a MTO of 5th Ed Brets. Happy to see the mounted squires available, they are one thing Mt 5th Ed army is really lacking.

The 5th edition Bret models are my favourite. If these were the 5th edition models I'd be much more tempted. Especially the archers, squires and men at arms.

The Perry twins did a great job on the 5th edition stuff.

I never collected Brets in 5th edition, they were my first choice but because a friend collected them I ended up down a different path. When 6th edition came out I was blinded by the bright lights of new models, but when I started actually building and painting them I disliked them more and more. I think it might have been the 6th edition Bretonnians that made me realise I dislike GW's bobblehead proportions (which were worse in that era than they are now).

It is shocking that GW would re-release an old IP being demanded by a niche crowd at a premium price. Who could have foreseen such a thing? No one, that is who.

 Ahtman wrote:
It is shocking that GW would re-release an old IP being demanded by a niche crowd at a premium price. Who could have foreseen such a thing? No one, that is who.

You are absolutely right sir.

UK prices (£155 for Brets £175 for TK)

 DaveC wrote:
UK prices (£155 for Brets £175 for TK)

If those prices are real, that isn't too bad. The rule book is £42, which comes in the starter set.

Can't say I am tempted by either TK or Brets, but thise look to be a good entry point. It might be that GW arw going to sell old kits at a discounted price.

 stonehorse wrote:

 DaveC wrote:
UK prices (£155 for Brets £175 for TK)

If those prices are real, that isn't too bad. The rule book is £42, which comes in the starter set.

Can't say I am tempted by either TK or Brets, but thise look to be a good entry point. It might be that GW arw going to sell old kits at a discounted price.

The big box sets seem fair enough but I think the kick in the butt will be the price of individual units.

So most people here tell me that the old TK skellies are really bad but what about the Tomb Guard plastics? Please share your experience with them.

They are ok
Main disadvantage was their price and the options but in general similar to all the other plastic elites released at the time

Not suited for R&F while boring & expensive to make an army from it

With larger bases the first problem might be gone, increasing the box size from 10 for 32€ to 20 for 55/60€ does not really help with last given what you get now on the market (resin and plastic) for less, they are still kind of boring to make more than 1-2 units

 kodos wrote:

Not suited for R&F while boring & expensive to make an army from it.

I have non R&F mini agnostic skirmish games in mind for them so it will not be a problem Thanks for the info!

Gotta respect a release of that size, at least.

Those prices are okayish, in line with AoS. Just a tad more expensive than their contemporary kits that stayed in production since End Times.

F in the chat for scalpers killing themselves en masse.

Might get myself a big ole chunk of Tomb Guard since I don't own any. And TK dice.

likely getting a rulebook from that and thats it, can find suitable foot knight models elsewhere, heck some metal range ones are cheaper

Are we expecting the skeleton warriors to come in boxes of 20?

20 means 2 upgrade sprues cover all options. Scratch that, 2 sprues only give you 16 bows...

That would mean the big box comes with 3,6 boxes of warriors which seems odd but not impossible. 5 Upgrade sprues cover all options for the warriors and cavalry shown in the pictures.

But that would also mean that we miss out on several upgrade sprues compared to buying individual boxes.

Is there a number of models of warriors/cavalry per box that solves this equation? Or have they skimped on the upgrade sprues in the big box?

EDIT: Perhaps the warrior box won't have bows/shields for everyone?

 Ohman wrote:
Are we expecting the skeleton warriors to come in boxes of 20?

20 means 2 upgrade sprues cover all options. Scratch that, 2 sprues only give you 16 bows...

That would mean the big box comes with 3,6 boxes of warriors which seems odd but not impossible. 5 Upgrade sprues cover all options for the warriors and cavalry shown in the pictures.

But that would also mean that we miss out on several upgrade sprues compared to buying individual boxes.

Is there a number of models of warriors/cavalry per box that solves this equation? Or have they skimped on the upgrade sprues in the big box?

EDIT: Perhaps the warrior box won't have bows/shields for everyone?

If you mean TK Skeleton Warriors, those likely come in boxes of 32. If going with Peasent Bowmen.

They'd have to be in some multiple of 8 unless they've recut the sprues - the bodies were also in groups of 8

EDIT: or was it 4? I can't remember now

Also I'm pretty sure the Horsemen were 4-per-sprue, so they'll likely be a box of 8

I just realized there’s no casket of souls or bone giants in this release, or green knight. I hope those are MTO sometime

Not everything necessarily gets released at once mind.
Multiple waves are SOP.

 GaroRobe wrote:
I just realized there’s no casket of souls or bone giants in this release, or green knight. I hope those are MTO sometime

I hope they’re rereleased, rather than MTO.

Thankfully I still have my Casket of Souls somewhere... unfortunately in Failcast and not metal

Yeah I'd not expect GW to drop an entire army in one go on any game system unless they are literally one box and nothing more (eg Warcry).

I fully expect that we will see more waves of models over time. A big part will depend on how well the sales do and on how many other armies are going to get pushed out in a set time frame. Hopefully they are not too slow at restoring old armies.

 Overread wrote:
Yeah I'd not expect GW to drop an entire army in one go on any game system unless they are literally one box and nothing more (eg Warcry).

I fully expect that we will see more waves of models over time. A big part will depend on how well the sales do and on how many other armies are going to get pushed out in a set time frame. Hopefully they are not too slow at restoring old armies.

Eh sales now would affect releases 2025 and onward. 2nd wave likely comes sooner than that

So just curious, obviously we don't know with the Old World yet, but what point levels were older editions of fantasy played at? 1500? 2000? 3000? Those prices for the box sets dropped my interest greatly but I am just wondering since I think they said these army boxes are about 1250 points. If its 1500 or 2000, getting 2/3+ of a basic army would be halfway decent, but if the point levels for the game are higher then suddenly its 300 dollars for only 1/3 of your army built mostly of models old enough to drink.

 kurhanik wrote:
So just curious, obviously we don't know with the Old World yet, but what point levels were older editions of fantasy played at? 1500? 2000? 3000? Those prices for the box sets dropped my interest greatly but I am just wondering since I think they said these army boxes are about 1250 points. If its 1500 or 2000, getting 2/3+ of a basic army would be halfway decent, but if the point levels for the game are higher then suddenly its 300 dollars for only 1/3 of your army built mostly of models old enough to drink.

In general Old World worked better at higher point levels. It was one of the issues they had near the end because 500-1000 points didn't really "work" all that well for many armies. 2K was generally seen as the basic point cost for most armies and battles where the game "worked well" and gave you the gameplay and visual experience. 1500 was decent for most armies.

GW appear to agree still with that as these starter boxes are pretty chunky. Of course we've also seen GW do things like market Killteam as its own thing to really help boost 40K gateway options.
Old World is a specialist game so GW might not be as hot with such things, so it might still suffer from that early gateway issue. Right now I feel old old players are the target market (hence the really high priced starter boxed sets). I figure in time we will see GW likely release cheaper boxed army sets and likely some kind of gateway game format (Killteam/Warcry format) to try and encourage people into the game softly so that new people don't have to clamber up a 1K point model collection just to get started.

Depends on the group but 2000pts for 6/7E and 2400-2500 for 8E was my usual level.

 NAVARRO wrote:
The big box sets seem fair enough but I think the kick in the butt will be the price of individual units.

Kind of feels like the opposite to me, although that's strictly looking at Tomb Kings. The big box is close to 240€. I could be tempted into buying it at half the price. Whereas Tomb Guard doesn't seem to have had a price increase over the last time they were available.

A lot of that is down to the age of the skeleton kits, of course. I imagine a hypothetical Warriors of Chaos box might look a lot more tempting for that kind of price if it goes easy on Marauders.

 Shadow Walker wrote:
So most people here tell me that the old TK skellies are really bad but what about the Tomb Guard plastics? Please share your experience with them.

The kit is nice overall. The heads are scaled to fit with the old skeletons, so they share the bobblehead look. That and most arms being molded to the shields are the weakest points of the models in my opinion. They're like Marines with legs and torso back halves in one piece. Torso front halves are interchangeable (not sure if every loincloth works with every body, but at least they're fundamentally designed to give you some options). Arms and shoulders are ball sockets, so you get a few options to vary things up a bit, albeit with the caveat that the shields with molded arms are posed in a way that they don't offer much choice at all.

They're tall, more in line with modern GW sculpts. You'll be looking at 34mm to 35mm for a Tomb Guard who stands reasonably straight, plus the headdress on top.

The bones don't look unduly thick, but they're thick enough to be reasonably durable. Add wrappings and armor and for skeleton warriors, Tomb Guard should be fairly resistant to snapping.

Sotahullu wrote:If you mean TK Skeleton Warriors, those likely come in boxes of 32. If going with Peasent Bowmen.

32 means you would need 4 upgrade sprues to have all the options available. 3 sprues lets you build up to 24 archers or up to 30 shield-warriors. Shame if not everyone can be built with a shield.

The big box appears to contain 5 upgrade sprues, seems like it might be a better idea to go for the individual boxes if you want to maximize the number of upgrade sprues.

Matt.Kingsley wrote:They'd have to be in some multiple of 8 unless they've recut the sprues - the bodies were also in groups of 8

EDIT: or was it 4? I can't remember now

Also I'm pretty sure the Horsemen were 4-per-sprue, so they'll likely be a box of 8

Both the horsemen and warriors used to be 4 to a sprue. The upgrade sprue contains 10 shields and 8 bows meaning you will always be either short on something or end upp with extras. Box of 8 with 1 upgrade sprue sounds plausible.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I actually have a bunch of Bretonnians that I should probably try to sell, when the Australian prices come out it'll give a bit of a guide of how much I might be able to get rid of my old models for.

This is occurring to me as well. I've still got the 5th ed. boxed set knights and selling them and the archers off to nostalgia-crazed geezers could be a solid play.

GaroRobe wrote:I just realized there’s no casket of souls or bone giants in this release, or green knight. I hope those are MTO sometime

I wonder if the bone giant will be removed, with the new dragon taking the place of big monster model as the bone giant is tiny compared to todays models.

I suspect we might see a new green knight plastic/resin kit, as he has its own page of rules in the new AJ. Seems like he would be due a nice new centrepiece model. That said, you'd think the same of Settra but we got the existing tiny chariot kit. They didn't even update the skeletal horses to have some nice armour to go with him.

Oh, great, now my skavens will get ignored in TWO game systems instead of 1!!!!! So exciting

 Geifer wrote:

 Shadow Walker wrote:
So most people here tell me that the old TK skellies are really bad but what about the Tomb Guard plastics? Please share your experience with them.

The kit is nice overall. The heads are scaled to fit with the old skeletons, so they share the bobblehead look. That and most arms being molded to the shields are the weakest points of the models in my opinion. They're like Marines with legs and torso back halves in one piece. Torso front halves are interchangeable (not sure if every loincloth works with every body, but at least they're fundamentally designed to give you some options). Arms and shoulders are ball sockets, so you get a few options to vary things up a bit, albeit with the caveat that the shields with molded arms are posed in a way that they don't offer much choice at all.

They're tall, more in line with modern GW sculpts. You'll be looking at 34mm to 35mm for a Tomb Guard who stands reasonably straight, plus the headdress on top.

The bones don't look unduly thick, but they're thick enough to be reasonably durable. Add wrappings and armor and for skeleton warriors, Tomb Guard should be fairly resistant to snapping.

Very informative, big thanks

Garrac wrote:
Oh, great, now my skavens will get ignored in TWO game systems instead of 1!!!!! So exciting

I'm sure in due time GW will add more systems to ignore Skaven in.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2024/01/01/old-world-almanack-watch-a-learn-to-play-video/

Pricing is going to be the biggest thing for me overall, especially for other armies and how those will be released. I no longer have a WHFB army, so I'd be starting from scratch.

With how many not-WHFB but GW aesthetic 3D print models out there now (especially for like Bretonnia/Empire which GW can't copyright) the prices are going to be what makes or breaks it. Can't see anyone sane spending twice as much with GW figures when you can get what are basically identical for half the price 3D printed.

That video told us all of nothing. I want my two minutes back.

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
That video told us all of nothing. I want my two minutes back.

Yeah, it was a cheat. Posted it before checking - I expected it to be a full how to play explanation.

 Shadow Walker wrote:

Yeah, it was a cheat. Posted it before checking - I expected it to be a full how to play explanation.

You thought they would leak the full rulebook?

Anyway we learned that Lady <removed> has 5 wounds for 225 points. Not bad. But with a 40x60 base she will be a bitch to line up with the knights.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also cannot wait to hear developers explain how they selected the core factions for TOW.

WorldEdgePlayer wrote:

 Shadow Walker wrote:

Yeah, it was a cheat. Posted it before checking - I expected it to be a full how to play explanation.

You thought they would leak the full rulebook?

Anyway we learned that Lady <removed> has 5 wounds for 225 points. Not bad. But with a 40x60 base she will be a bitch to line up with the knights.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also cannot wait to hear developers explain how they selected the core factions for TOW.

They did that already: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/05/23/old-world-development-diary-the-main-factions-revealed/

But, as has been pointed out, I'm sure [/sarcasm] it's only coincidental that 6 of the 7 'legacy' armies are still active lines for Age of Sigmar (and the seventh is Chaos Dwarfs, the red-headed stepchildren of Warhammer).

Mod edit - removed.

Garrac wrote:
Oh, great, now my skavens will get ignored in TWO game systems instead of 1!!!!! So exciting

We're still going strong in Mordheim and Blood Bowl though!

Wayniac wrote:
Pricing is going to be the biggest thing for me overall, especially for other armies and how those will be released. I no longer have a WHFB army, so I'd be starting from scratch.

With how many not-WHFB but GW aesthetic 3D print models out there now (especially for like Bretonnia/Empire which GW can't copyright) the prices are going to be what makes or breaks it. Can't see anyone sane spending twice as much with GW figures when you can get what are basically identical for half the price 3D printed.

But buying better models in plastic or resin does not make you part of the Warhammer Hobby
And you want to be part of the Warhammer Hobby as there is no other hobby that let you paint and play with little plastic models

Or maybe some people want to get some of the stuff they missed out on previously?
Buying GW models doesn't automatically make someone insane or a simp.

Did anyone else spot that the basic warbow is now the same strength as the user? (Longbows and short bows still S3).

I wonder if e.g. Ushabti will just be S5 with regular bows?

Could also be interesting for human characters with bows getting that extra pip of S, or if there’s magic that boosts strength being used on Bret/Empire/TK/Orc archers.

Once crap was written here.

Well I would be surprised if Ushabti Bows would be just warbows considering those shoot arrows as long as a man!

Skeleton Warrios likely have those while Horsemen and Chariots would have Light ones.

I have a feeling the biggest sellers will be the books.

Have the prices on the Grail Knights, Mounted Yeomen, and Battle Pilgrims come out yet?

 Chief Librarian Mephiston wrote:
Have the prices on the Grail Knights, Mounted Yeomen, and Battle Pilgrims come out yet?

This is around as mail order list in USD, not sure if valid

 kodos wrote:

 Chief Librarian Mephiston wrote:
Have the prices on the Grail Knights, Mounted Yeomen, and Battle Pilgrims come out yet?

This is around as mail order list in USD, not sure if valid

If true, thats kind of what I expected for the metal models tbh. If they are charging 60+ for metal models that come with plastic horses, I expect fully metal units like the battle pilgrims to be 80-100 for the unit. Not far what the cost of MESBG models are tbh, which is why I expected these prices but still going to be quite the investment to get the handful of units I do need/want to complete projects.

Those base prices are a bit rich though, €50 for 100 bases is mad. I brought a couple of thousand for not much more recently. No wonder GW moved to having 30mm bases that no one currently makes (afaik).

Garrac wrote:
Oh, great, now my skavens will get ignored in TWO game systems instead of 1!!!!! So exciting

They get rules in tow and are getting lots of models in summer. What systems they are being ignored? 40k and hh? Well no kidding

$260 and $290 are too much. I agree with a Youtuber who noted they'll make too few boxes to start and lean on FOMO to sell the game, but it's too much overall. I think they're content just selling really old models at modern prices and letting the game drift from there.

Another detail, while the rulebook and grand army books are listed in English, French and German, the Journals are English only

Should give us a hint for the ongoing support as well

Are you sure that's USD? 85 for three ushabti?

Seems the prices are what i thought theyd be. Was already planning to skip the metal kits expecting them to be expensive. They seem likely to have a short life and it should be possible to build a decent army without them until gw eventually resculpts them into plastic.

Yikes 85$ USD (allegedly) for the metal Ushabti is a stinger for sure. But that's the only miniatures I'd be interested in with the Liche, which seems reasonable at 15$.

Pack of bases are interesting, but still crazy that we are waiting for the full release to confirm what unit goes on what. Would have been fun to have a heads up so we can start resizing thing (either full rebasing, or making trays to match the new size, etc.)

chaos0xomega wrote:
Seems the prices are what i thought theyd be. Was already planning to skip the metal kits expecting them to be expensive. They seem likely to have a short life and it should be possible to build a decent army without them until gw eventually resculpts them into plastic.

I don't think we've seen anything yet to indicate this will be the case.

 Gert wrote:
Or maybe some people want to get some of the stuff they missed out on previously?
Buying GW models doesn't automatically make someone insane or a simp.

It does. It absolutely does.

But if you can afford GW minis, the term is “eccentric”.

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

Spoiler:

WorldEdgePlayer wrote:

 Shadow Walker wrote:

Yeah, it was a cheat. Posted it before checking - I expected it to be a full how to play explanation.

You thought they would leak the full rulebook?

Anyway we learned that Lady <removed> has 5 wounds for 225 points. Not bad. But with a 40x60 base she will be a bitch to line up with the knights.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also cannot wait to hear developers explain how they selected the core factions for TOW.

They did that already: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/05/23/old-world-development-diary-the-main-factions-revealed/

But, as has been pointed out, I'm sure [/sarcasm] it's only coincidental that 6 of the 7 'legacy' armies are still active lines for Age of Sigmar (and the seventh is Chaos Dwarfs, the red-headed stepchildren of Warhammer).

Any chance GW brings back Chaos Dwarf miniatures in some form?

I would even pay stupid "available only at GW online prices" for them, if they would!

If they don't, there will most likely be some 'close enough' options available somewhere, eventually...

How close is close enough? Mantic’s Abyssal Dwarfs have the same energy, but you probably need 3D prints to get any closer to Chaos Dwarfs.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Seems the prices are what i thought theyd be. Was already planning to skip the metal kits expecting them to be expensive. They seem likely to have a short life and it should be possible to build a decent army without them until gw eventually resculpts them into plastic.

which was already said 20 years ago on release and again 10 years ago

Don't think it will be different this time

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
How close is close enough? Mantic’s Abyssal Dwarfs have the same energy, but you probably need 3D prints to get any closer to Chaos Dwarfs.

Good point - but I'll admit to wishing for something...a lot closer than Mantic's efforts!

I like Fabelzel's Chorfs, so much so that one is my avatar at current.

Are the Battle Pilgrims missing from the list there?

I think there might be some units that are gw store only like made to order, but that is just a guess

 Prometheum5 wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Seems the prices are what i thought theyd be. Was already planning to skip the metal kits expecting them to be expensive. They seem likely to have a short life and it should be possible to build a decent army without them until gw eventually resculpts them into plastic.

I don't think we've seen anything yet to indicate this will be the case.

We don't need to. GW has said enough about their business being about plastic. It's a question of when, not if. Only way I doesn't happen is if TOW doesn't sell and fails to meet projections.

chaos0xomega wrote:

 Prometheum5 wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Seems the prices are what i thought theyd be. Was already planning to skip the metal kits expecting them to be expensive. They seem likely to have a short life and it should be possible to build a decent army without them until gw eventually resculpts them into plastic.

I don't think we've seen anything yet to indicate this will be the case.

We don't need to. GW has said enough about their business being about plastic. It's a question of when, not if. Only way I doesn't happen is if TOW doesn't sell and fails to meet projections.

When could be a decade though, since they have a large number of factions to support on a specialist game release schedule.

 RaptorusRex wrote:
I like Fabelzel's Chorfs, so much so that one is my avatar at current.

Looked those up- they are adorable with a good touch of the sculptor’s personality in them.

chaos0xomega wrote:

 Prometheum5 wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Seems the prices are what i thought theyd be. Was already planning to skip the metal kits expecting them to be expensive. They seem likely to have a short life and it should be possible to build a decent army without them until gw eventually resculpts them into plastic.

I don't think we've seen anything yet to indicate this will be the case.

We don't need to. GW has said enough about their business being about plastic. It's a question of when, not if. Only way I doesn't happen is if TOW doesn't sell and fails to meet projections.

Only if TOW is a big enough success and there's a hell of a lot of metal models they'd have to resculpt.

There is precedent mind - Blood Bowl was supposed to be only 4 plastic teams and the rest in resin but sold so well that they pivoted to producing all the teams in plastic and here we are 20 odd teams later.

$20 for a single Grail Knight?

Yeah, that’s not going to happen. They’re out of their damn minds charging that.

 Chief Librarian Mephiston wrote:
$20 for a single Grail Knight?

Yeah, that’s not going to happen. They’re out of their damn minds charging that.

glad I still have mine here, nice models but no way worth that when you can essentially just paint the plastic ones a bit differently and call it a day

I’m going to be 3d printing those. I’m dumbfounded that they went and repeated the mistake that hurt Bretonnia’s sales the last couple of editions. They were selling boxes of 5 Grail Knights and 5 Questing Knights at $99 each. Keeping that price point is insane.

 Chief Librarian Mephiston wrote:
I’m going to be 3d printing those. I’m dumbfounded that they went and repeated the mistake that hurt Bretonnia’s sales the last couple of editions. They were selling boxes of 5 Grail Knights and 5 Questing Knights at $99 each. Keeping that price point is insane.

I still hope this leaked mailorder price list is a fake. The retailer prices come from GW's official retailer site and are legit, but no one knows where this mailorder list is coming from. The prices seem way higher than just adjusting for inflation. X for Doubt.

I'll say the big boxset costs seem reasonable. Honestly they are the same pricing or less than 2015 for similar loads of models.

For example the TK are essentially 7.5 old regiment plastic boxes plus a centerpiece and rulebook. Old numbers that $245+ (assuming $35 per regiment box which might have been higher when the game died) for the regiments, $75 for the rulebook, and even by old standards probably a $60 centerpiece. So $380 in OLD prices.

The KotR on Foot back when Fantasy died would have been $50 per 10. Which they obviously aren't now. I don't remember what the Tombguard were going for for 10 before end times but it was betwen $0-$50. So same cost or less.

Yes they are older sculpts. But for all of you complaining they should be discounting older sculpts they actually are.......FOR THE PLASTICS.

Cause f-me on the metals. I expected $15 per model on the knights and $20 for the Ushabti types. I haven't kept up with metal pricing on models but lord there went my dreams of 2 units of 6 ushabti cause I'm not paying $340 for 12 models.

Regardless I do think some of you are living in a fantasy world as far as what this was and what the state of Fantasy was back when it got canned. The major reason fantasy died wasn't the cost. It was a poor ruleset, combined with bad management, combined with a yearly price increase. All to a system that at least since 6th never sold more combined, until end times, than the Space Marine tactical squad and rhino sets.

 Hulksmash wrote:
I'll say the big boxset costs seem reasonable. Honestly they are the same pricing or less than 2015 for similar loads of models.

For example the TK are essentially 7.5 old regiment plastic boxes plus a centerpiece and rulebook. Old numbers that $245+ (assuming $35 per regiment box which might have been higher when the game died) for the regiments, $75 for the rulebook, and even by old standards probably a $60 centerpiece. So $380 in OLD prices.

The KotR on Foot back when Fantasy died would have been $50 per 10. Which they obviously aren't now. I don't remember what the Tombguard were going for for 10 before end times but it was betwen $0-$50. So same cost or less.

Yes they are older sculpts. But for all of you complaining they should be discounting older sculpts they actually are.......FOR THE PLASTICS.

Cause f-me on the metals. I expected $15 per model on the knights and $20 for the Ushabti types. I haven't kept up with metal pricing on models but lord there went my dreams of 2 units of 6 ushabti cause I'm not paying $340 for 12 models.

Regardless I do think some of you are living in a fantasy world as far as what this was and what the state of Fantasy was back when it got canned. The major reason fantasy died wasn't the cost. It was a poor ruleset, combined with bad management, combined with a yearly price increase. All to a system that at least since 6th never sold more combined, until end times, than the Space Marine tactical squad and rhino sets.

In case you reacted to my post: I don't doubt the prices of plastics, army box etc. All these prices are publicly available on GW's retailer homepage (https://trade.games-workshop.com/resources/). I doubt the prices of metals and resin, because these do not get listed on the retailer homepage. Afaik, retailers that want to buy this "GW direct" boxes have to do so through the same webshop as normal customers (they just get a retailer discount on some items). This means there shouldn't be an excel price list like the one we have seen for plastics.

@Nalim

That wasn't at you at all. It was a general reply to a lot of the people claiming the pricing we know is fairly accurate (the plasitc sets) was somehow insanely and unfairly priced.

I'm with you and hopeful this list is weird but I don't have high hopes given the MESBG people have said the pricing is inline with their metals.

Did I miss something or how do you get the rules for the non core armies?

 Rogzor87 wrote:
Did I miss something or how do you get the rules for the non core armies?

Odds are pdf on warhammer-community.com at launch day.

 Nalim wrote:
In case you reacted to my post: I don't doubt the prices of plastics, army box etc. All these prices are publicly available on GW's retailer homepage (https://trade.games-workshop.com/resources/). I doubt the prices of metals and resin, because these do not get listed on the retailer homepage. Afaik, retailers that want to buy this "GW direct" boxes have to do so through the same webshop as normal customers (they just get a retailer discount on some items). This means there shouldn't be an excel price list like the one we have seen for plastics.

The release sheet has (almost) all the releases for whatever time period it covers; trade, direct, Black Library. The only thing that isn't usually included are Forgeworld releases.

tneva82 wrote:

Garrac wrote:
Oh, great, now my skavens will get ignored in TWO game systems instead of 1!!!!! So exciting

They get rules in tow and are getting lots of models in summer. What systems they are being ignored? 40k and hh? Well no kidding

The news: skavens are getting lots of models in summer!!!!

Source: trust me

Oh, and a cheap PDF with short rules and new models on sight, I guess at least it would be free

 Hulksmash wrote:

Cause f-me on the metals. I expected $15 per model on the knights and $20 for the Ushabti types. I haven't kept up with metal pricing on models but lord there went my dreams of 2 units of 6 ushabti cause I'm not paying $340 for 12 models.

The other night I was flicking through old WD and there were sets of 3 ushabti for about 60AUD (of course I bloody well can't find the ad today when I look). (imperfect) inflation calculation has that at about $100 today. Not that it's a very nice price for three mandollies, but it seems they were always expensive? Thank goodness for 3D printing I suppose.

Just because I found the ad whilst looking for that ad, here's the AUD prices of things (plus inflation adjustment)

Again I'm not flogging for GW, this is all rather expensive for moulded plastic, but there it is. Given the new bret set is expected to be $350-$450....

 Robert Facepalmer wrote:

 Nalim wrote:
In case you reacted to my post: I don't doubt the prices of plastics, army box etc. All these prices are publicly available on GW's retailer homepage (https://trade.games-workshop.com/resources/). I doubt the prices of metals and resin, because these do not get listed on the retailer homepage. Afaik, retailers that want to buy this "GW direct" boxes have to do so through the same webshop as normal customers (they just get a retailer discount on some items). This means there shouldn't be an excel price list like the one we have seen for plastics.

The release sheet has (almost) all the releases for whatever time period it covers; trade, direct, Black Library. The only thing that isn't usually included are Forgeworld releases.

This is the current UK pricelist: https://trade.games-workshop.com/assets/2024/01/Pricelist%20UK.xls

You might notice that it looks exactly like the plastic "leaks". Please show me where the direct prices for the new miniatures are. Additionally, the formatting of the "leaked" price list for metals and resins is wildly different to this one. They don't come from the same source. There is no list like the "leaked" one in the GW retailer portal.

Devil's Advocate but...FW is not a gated off webstore anymore. US retailers might get a different order sheet, the one we'd seen yesterday was from the Rest of World section rather than the US proper.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Devil's Advocate but...FW is not a gated off webstore anymore. US retailers might get a different order sheet, the one we'd seen yesterday was from the Rest of World section rather than the US proper.

You might actually be on to something here. Just checked the US retail site and there is no price list available there. It could well be that the US one is distributed in some other way and looks differently to the ones for other countries. Guess we'll see on Saturday then. Good thing is, if these prices turn out to be correct, stuff won't sell out ^^.

That Excel sheet isn't the release list, that is the (entire) range list for new accounts and restock.

I don't know what eurozone trade accounts get but there is a new release doc that is the new releases for that week. I have seen clips of the trade releases with Euro prices that look similar so maybe that trade department actually sanitizes the list before they release it.

They've killed any personal interest in building my ushabti collection. I may sell the few that I have at that price

It begins ...

 Chief Librarian Mephiston wrote:
$20 for a single Grail Knight?

Yeah, that’s not going to happen. They’re out of their damn minds charging that.

That’s a lot more expensive than buying some Blood Angels chalice bits and banner toppers, and slapping them on plastic knights. And that’s more expensive than printing bits and gluing them to Fireforge Albion Knights.

Or just use Conquest household knights. Those dudes are massive and awesome.

I'm really hoping the pricing on the metals is dead wrong, or someone has the wrong currency listed.

If those prices are accurate this re-launch is dead to be and I'm not buying a thing. Why would you ever paying prices like that for models 30+ years old. They don't even hold up to today's minis.

Because metal minis are hella expensive to manufacture at scale and the price of white metal/pewter or whatever they call it has gone through the roof. Just like how blood knights used to be over $100 for 5 minis and are now $60 in plastic. They ain't wrong, that's life. Buy it if you want it, don't if you don't. You can build armies without them and wait fir the inevitable future resculpt.

For any Aussies, I did a price work out for a few items from looking up comparison GW costings on the UK & US websites. I'm not guaranteeing these are the final prices but will be very close unless GW surprise us somehow.

I don't want this to turn into a whinge fest how down under we cop expensive hobby pricing etc etc but just thought it might help people plan their purchases. I know I have to reconsider things now.

The Rulebook $117 AUD
The Journal book $56 AUD
Foot Knights (20?) $132/$135 AUD
Pegasus Knights (3) $98 AUD
Pegasus Standard Bearer (1) $105 AUD

These will be available from 3rd party online stores so discounts will be possible.

Yeoman Command (3) $98 AUD
Yeoman (5) $120/$125 AUD
Grail Knight Command (3) $98 AUD
Grail Knights (3) $98 AUD

These may only be available off the GW site so may not have a possible discount.

The thought of paying $196 for 1 unit of Grail Knights 6 strong is a bit much for me. The Yeomans are no better. While I would only need a single box of Foot Knights that price had better include 20 of them. Even then when I compare the cost to other GW boxes it becomes even less good value. I like the figures but have great difficulty justifying paying these prices.

I know this game system will have varied success around the world and some people are genuinely happy, as was I when it was proved to be a real thing, but I've just checked locally... Where I live is considered a regional area and there is no GW store. Any local people who play GW games, at this point with these prices coming out, no one is interested in playing this game now. No one. Who knows, maybe in the future they might with more factions but it's a pretty sad thought that for me even if I bite that very expensive bullet (or should that be Cannon Ball) my minis won't see use. Guess I'll have to figure out if paying $$$ to have a varied army for completeness sake is really worth it. Will still look nice on the shelf I guess.

Good luck with your choices people

 aracersss wrote:
It begins ...

If that is a highlight of $75 warsphinxes, then yes. The one decently priced release in this entire thing. I bought one of mine original for $65 so i can deal with a $10 re-release fee.

lost_lilliputian wrote:
For any Aussies, I did a price work out for a few items from looking up comparison GW costings on the UK & US websites. I'm not guaranteeing these are the final prices but will be very close unless GW surprise us somehow.

I don't want this to turn into a whinge fest how down under we cop expensive hobby pricing etc etc but just thought it might help people plan their purchases. I know I have to reconsider things now.

The Rulebook $117 AUD
The Journal book $56 AUD
Foot Knights (20?) $132/$135 AUD
Pegasus Knights (3) $98 AUD
Pegasus Standard Bearer (1) $105 AUD

These will be available from 3rd party online stores so discounts will be possible.

Yeoman Command (3) $98 AUD
Yeoman (5) $120/$125 AUD
Grail Knight Command (3) $98 AUD
Grail Knights (3) $98 AUD

These may only be available off the GW site so may not have a possible discount.

The thought of paying $196 for 1 unit of Grail Knights 6 strong is a bit much for me. The Yeomans are no better. While I would only need a single box of Foot Knights that price had better include 20 of them. Even then when I compare the cost to other GW boxes it becomes even less good value. I like the figures but have great difficulty justifying paying these prices.

I know this game system will have varied success around the world and some people are genuinely happy, as was I when it was proved to be a real thing, but I've just checked locally... Where I live is considered a regional area and there is no GW store. Any local people who play GW games, at this point with these prices coming out, no one is interested in playing this game now. No one. Who knows, maybe in the future they might with more factions but it's a pretty sad thought that for me even if I bite that very expensive bullet (or should that be Cannon Ball) my minis won't see use. Guess I'll have to figure out if paying $$$ to have a varied army for completeness sake is really worth it. Will still look nice on the shelf I guess.

Good luck with your choices people

I did some similar comparisons with the US prices for TK and mapped them against the same prices Heresy releases.

This came out to:

$125 for the Sphinx
$140 for the Tomb Guard
$105 for the Stalkers

 buttersxxx wrote:


I did some similar comparisons with the US prices for TK and mapped them against the same prices Heresy releases.

This came out to:

$125 for the Sphinx
$140 for the Tomb Guard
$105 for the Stalkers

Wow, so my workings out were on the optimistic side! I see we have a few more $AUD to pay then

Thank you anyway, it's good to know
I do like the look of the Tomb Kings too.

GW is applying their luxury multiplier to metal, which given the starting price of white metal minis, really magnifies the lunacy. I just bought a heavy handful of metal miniatures from Crooked Dice at mostly £4 each. You might think you would pay more to get models from a tiny company with no economy of scale, but you'd be wrong, GW needs much more money.

Just the rules for old world supposedly is $70 core, $50 for either ravenous hordes or forces of fantasy for your faction, and $30 for arcane journal. So $150 USD?

I appreciate Conquest giving us free rules and an awesome app for free so much after this fiasco.

It was never going to be free, no one expected that. Like looking at a Ferrari and saying you appreciate the cost of a Kia lol.

 nathan2004 wrote:
It was never going to be free, no one expected that. Like looking at a Ferrari and saying you appreciate the cost of a Kia lol.

The Ferrari is 10yo old models?

Sasorijap wrote:

 nathan2004 wrote:
It was never going to be free, no one expected that. Like looking at a Ferrari and saying you appreciate the cost of a Kia lol.

The Ferrari is 10yo old models?

The rules are the Ferrari. What we have seen so far and how beautiful the books look, it is worth the price. I don't care about Conquest, KoW and any other fantasy rank & file games. I am just happy they brought back Warhammer and it looks like the did a good job with it. Honestly I love it that it became a specialist game. The rules will not change as frequently as with 40K and AoS. Which is a plus. Hopefully they will just release after all the Arcane journals, on a semi-regular base 9-12 months a campaign book with a couple of new mini's. It doesn't need be to more than that.

 nathan2004 wrote:
It was never going to be free, no one expected that. Like looking at a Ferrari and saying you appreciate the cost of a Kia lol.

a KIA is likely going to last longer and be more reliable...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
indeed that price for the rules, which is not too bad, then another not exactly cheap book for the army lists - indeed two such books

I was looking forward to this, I think, especially in the post Christmas "meah" with a credit card thats crying I may end up giving this a miss

not so much the price itself, but not spending that without a chance to see it and read a few actually independent reviews of it, and by that time likely sold out so will have to wait and see

Tonhel wrote:
The rules are the Ferrari.

I had a little laugh there.

Even though WHFB got me into wargaming... it did so in the mid 90's.

These days, I wouldn't call it any edition I played a well written game. Granted, they may improve it with this new edition, but I'm going to guess that like almost all GW games it'll be written terribly, overcomplicated rules that are excessively verbose and convoluted with an unnecessary amount of interactions and rules exceptions that ends up resulting in a game that takes far longer than it should to play.

Prove me wrong, GW, prove me wrong...

230 euros for TK army. Damn, that's expensive

It is premium book in layout and design
Hardcover, full colour etc

The contents not so much, unless there are a lot of new artwork, which GW has not even done for 40k, it is not that special

It is rather a VW beetle with a Porsche 911 skin than a Ferrari
Which is still nice for collectors who don't have a 911 but not comparable to modern sports cars

 Londinium wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

 Prometheum5 wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Seems the prices are what i thought theyd be. Was already planning to skip the metal kits expecting them to be expensive. They seem likely to have a short life and it should be possible to build a decent army without them until gw eventually resculpts them into plastic.

I don't think we've seen anything yet to indicate this will be the case.

We don't need to. GW has said enough about their business being about plastic. It's a question of when, not if. Only way I doesn't happen is if TOW doesn't sell and fails to meet projections.

Only if TOW is a big enough success and there's a hell of a lot of metal models they'd have to resculpt.

There is precedent mind - Blood Bowl was supposed to be only 4 plastic teams and the rest in resin but sold so well that they pivoted to producing all the teams in plastic and here we are 20 odd teams later.

None of those teams are Khemri and orcs and humans got a second team before Khemri got one at all.

Tomb Kings don't get new stuff. If you want to buy into the army, better get used to the idea that it has always been near the bottom of GW's priority list. Otherwise you'll just set yourself up for disappointment.

 Geifer wrote:

 Londinium wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

 Prometheum5 wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Seems the prices are what i thought theyd be. Was already planning to skip the metal kits expecting them to be expensive. They seem likely to have a short life and it should be possible to build a decent army without them until gw eventually resculpts them into plastic.

I don't think we've seen anything yet to indicate this will be the case.

We don't need to. GW has said enough about their business being about plastic. It's a question of when, not if. Only way I doesn't happen is if TOW doesn't sell and fails to meet projections.

Only if TOW is a big enough success and there's a hell of a lot of metal models they'd have to resculpt.

There is precedent mind - Blood Bowl was supposed to be only 4 plastic teams and the rest in resin but sold so well that they pivoted to producing all the teams in plastic and here we are 20 odd teams later.

None of those teams are Khemri and orcs and humans got a second team before Khemri got one at all.

Tomb Kings don't get new stuff. If you want to buy into the army, better get used to the idea that it has always been near the bottom of GW's priority list. Otherwise you'll just set yourself up for disappointment.

Other than the new dragon, tomb king on foot, standard bearer, hero and tomb swarms.

Otherwise yes nothing.

Feel free to be snarky, but I'm offering genuine advice. Chances are, as has been amply discussed before, that The Old World launches with Bretonnians and Tomb Kings because the miniatures haven't been sold by GW for the better part of a decade. That's not confidence in those armies but confidence in people's nostalgia.

I'd be delighted if a ton of people bought into The Old World specifically via Tomb Kings, because short of stellar sales numbers there is absolutely no reason to believe that Tomb Kings are going to get any more model support for a long time. Sure, they get a few resin characters and a really pointless second centerpiece monster for their launch. A token model release is GW standard at this point. We shouldn't expect less. But there is no telling when, if at all, Tomb Kings feature again in a book release to prompt another model update or token resin character. Not that the latter will do you any good if you're waiting for staple regiments.

I have no intention of stopping anyone from getting into Tomb Kings. If you like the models that are on offer now, great. Just be aware that there's no point in holding back on buying models in the hope of plastic replacements. You'll just waste years waiting for something that's not coming when you could spend that time playing the army composition you want to play.

Blood Bowl is something very different

All plastic sprues in BB combined are not enough to get a single army upgraded in TOW.

And saying if a system sell well it gets new plastic and old metal replaced just implies that Lord of the Rings is not selling at all

 Gir Spirit Bane wrote:

Other than the new dragon, tomb king on foot, standard bearer, hero and tomb swarms.

Otherwise yes nothing.

And yet it's the same amount of new kits as the skavens have gotten on the latest 9 years for AoS

Meanwhile, bretonnians will get the new Lord/Battle Standard Bearer on Pegasus, Knights of the Realm on Foot, Handmaiden of the Lady, Battle Standard Bearer on Foot, Questing Knight Paladin with Great Weapon and Lady Élisse Duchaard, which, yes, makes for more new minis than the skavens in AoS! (alltho, honestly, Im happy for the fandoms of both, it was about time you got some love)

Are... are we converting into the new bretonnians of warhammer?

Well I put my name down for Tomb Kings dice and a box of Tomb Guard for old times' sake.

Ain't dumb enough to be buying GW rules sight unseen.

Lord of the Rings is a bit special since it isn't GWs own IP.

Anything they make for their own IPs are things that are guaranteed to be used for as long as they want to. They also get 100% of the profits from it.

If they make a new model/sculpt/mould for MESBG they need to have it approved by the rights owner (small extra cost here) and any models they make they give a small share to the rights owner (another small cost) and the amount of time they will be able to profit from this new release is unknown. It might be a few years until the next time they have to negotiate the rights and they lose the IP or it might be for decades more. If it is for a longer time and the model sells well it might show the IP owner that there is a lot of profit in the license and they will want a higher cut from GW in the future and thus lowering the profit margins for GW even if the model sells well.

As long as GW have other projects and plans for their own IPs and still have models to redo in plastic or have issues supplying their own games the Lord of the Rings line will be a lower priority and only getting scraps. Which is actually a good thing since the less attention you get from current GW the better the state of the game is.

Garrac wrote:

 Gir Spirit Bane wrote:

Other than the new dragon, tomb king on foot, standard bearer, hero and tomb swarms.

Otherwise yes nothing.

And yet it's the same amount of new kits as the skavens have gotten on the latest 9 years for AoS

Meanwhile, bretonnians will get the new Lord/Battle Standard Bearer on Pegasus, Knights of the Realm on Foot, Handmaiden of the Lady, Battle Standard Bearer on Foot, Questing Knight Paladin with Great Weapon and Lady Élisse Duchaard, which, yes, makes for more new minis than the skavens in AoS! (alltho, honestly, Im happy for the fandoms of both, it was about time you got some love)

Are... are we converting into the new bretonnians of warhammer?

I would have been happier to see an upgrade to the core boxes for both armies instead of ancillary stuff like characters. Those icky TK skeletons are a turn off, and I know some people like them, but the old Bretonnian models were due an upgrade roughly a decade ago.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 nathan2004 wrote:
There will literally be no pleasing some of you.

Ah yes, the most impactful argument that was ever made on this here dakka.

 kodos wrote:
And saying if a system sell well it gets new plastic and old metal replaced just implies that Lord of the Rings is not selling at all

MESBG has had loads of characters replaced until this period of silence which many have assumed to be an issue with licensing. It also got the Battlehosts and Osgiliath boxsets so it was still getting new ways to start armies.
MESBG and TOW differ because MESBG is a skirmish-style game where each model is an individual while TOW is mass battles. Those metal models sell far less often because far fewer are needed in an army.

a lot of LotR is character models or somewhat specialised things, coupled with as a game you don't need all that many models either

in effect where a given "box" could sell multiple copies to a 40k or fantasy player it may be just a single box to LotR

could be not so much it doesn't sell as well as the game structure means it will never sell as well

leopard wrote:
could be not so much it doesn't sell as well as the game structure means it will never sell as well

It's 100% this. Back when our group got into MESBG with its rebrand from LotR and Hobbit, most of us bought the basic "troop" box and a hero or two and that was it. There were a few people who went all in and got a legion of Uruk Hai but most of us were content with a Warband or two.
Then GW released the Battlecompanies ruleset which incentivised playing with just one Warband and more people got into that instead.
It's not a game to be compared with the likes of 40k/AoS/HH/TOW because it's not the same league.

So, if people would buy more, like with blood bowl, they for sure would be replaced.....

Simply means GW expect sales for Grail Knights on the level of Lord of the Rings models and because a player only ever buy 2 boxes, sales are never high enough compared to 40k were a single player buys multiple of the same, to justify a plastic release

For the very same reasons Lord of the Rings is not getting their models replaced, TOW will get them replaced for sure

I still don't see that coming, there will rather be a new faction than an old one redone

I got the box of five metal Grail knights, and four singles many years back

I'm unlikely to ever want more than one unit of them, and if I need one or two more, well a plastic knight with the same blue/white paint job will do, especially in the middle of a unit


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gert wrote:

leopard wrote:
could be not so much it doesn't sell as well as the game structure means it will never sell as well

It's 100% this. Back when our group got into MESBG with its rebrand from LotR and Hobbit, most of us bought the basic "troop" box and a hero or two and that was it. There were a few people who went all in and got a legion of Uruk Hai but most of us were content with a Warband or two.
Then GW released the Battlecompanies ruleset which incentivised playing with just one Warband and more people got into that instead.
It's not a game to be compared with the likes of 40k/AoS/HH/TOW because it's not the same league.

yes, people locally are starting to get into middle earth partly for the rules but partly because the cost to start is so low

a single box of 20-24 infantry, mark two as captains and you are away, add cavalry the same with a captain and done - the Battlehost sets are even better

Battle Companies is good.. but invariably requires a curiously larger range of models to actually play it, e.g. many of the expansion bits you can roll up are oddballs. its great fun though

indeed its seemingly the only reasonably mainstream GW game where the rules have not been written to force ever more purchases, for middle earth you expand by collecting more factions and being able to run the excellent narrative stuff

pity they have not brought that model really to 40k and AoS as it works very well, smaller games, but much more varied ones with a bit less "pay to win" stuff but probably similar overall spend

 kodos wrote:
So, if people would buy more, like with blood bowl, they for sure would be replaced.....

Simply means GW expect sales for Grail Knights on the level of Lord of the Rings models and because a player only ever buy 2 boxes, sales are never high enough compared to 40k were a single player buys multiple of the same, to justify a plastic release

For the very same reasons Lord of the Rings is not getting their models replaced, TOW will get them replaced for sure

If TOW sells well then replacement models will come. That's the SOP for GW.
Comparing TOW to MESBG just because they both have metal models is stupid because they're entirely different games with wildly different selling points. MESBG allows people to re-enact the films and books while TOW is still very much a "Your Dudes" setting. MESBG is a skirmish game where the buy-in is around £55 while TOW is a mass-battle game where the buy-in is much higher.
Overall sales of a range are what pushes new kits.

I still don't see that coming, there will rather be a new faction than an old one redone

GW will do both. The first wave for both Bretonnia and Tomb Kings has seen remakes of older models and new models alongside the older kits. Redoing the whole Bretonnia and TK lines immediately would have been a monumentally stupid decision because GW doesn't know how well the game will sell. Once sales reports have come back and the initial armies have been released, new replacement kits will show up.

I think one of them being 100% owned and control by GW IP and the other being a licensed game has as much to do with it if not more than actual sales.

MESBG being in limbo is most likely the same reason. The overlapping venn diagram of resources/people put on TOW and the resources/people normally on MESBG have most likely been a perfect circle for the last year.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2024/01/02/bretonnia-kit-focus-knights-of-the-realm-walk-so-their-lord-can-fly/

Pegasus Lord sprue:

Battle Standard Bearer on Pegasus sprue:

Shared Royal Pegasus sprue:


Knights of the Realm on Foot sprues:


Breakdown Article
So, the BSB on Pegasus is its own kit. Shame they won't just sell you the Pegasus in packs of 3 and let you make your own Pegasus Knights!

 Kanluwen wrote:

So, the BSB on Pegasus is its own kit. Shame they won't just sell you the Pegasus in packs of 3 and let you make your own Pegasus Knights!

Not yet! They want you to buy a bunch of the old Pegasus before releasing new ones so you want to replace the old and outdated.

Expected the price to be for the 10 Knights so 20 in the box is a nice surprise.

It’s what I expected. I don’t think we’ll see any more 10-man boxes for basic infantry again. It’ll probably be 20 man boxes for elite units and even bigger for more common units. They’ve already said Peasant Bowmen, for instance, will come in boxes of 32 models.

 Chief Librarian Mephiston wrote:
It’s what I expected. I don’t think we’ll see any more 10-man boxes for basic infantry again. It’ll probably be 20 man boxes for elite units and even bigger for more common units. They’ve already said Peasant Bowmen, for instance, will come in boxes of 32 models.

They said Peasant Bowmen and other future regiments.

I've repeated this several times. Here's the exact quote:

These regiments and other future regiments are returning in boxes that contain enough plastic miniatures to make a full regiment, not just a rank or two. With the Peasant Bowmen box, you’ll be able to build a unit of 32 archers, complete with a command group and Defensive Stakes. So dreams of creating massive armies of ranked-up troops will be well within your grasp.

What are those curves on the oversized poleaxe ? Did they let Orc forge their weapons now.

I didn't play much old world and owned very little and I'm not sure I'd bother with a TK army for free given the nature of those skeletons and cav/chariots, never mind the obscene prices on the ushabti etc and the fact the dopey croc-dragon could instead have been any number of far more useful kits. I can, however, see that for someone with most of an army or that likes the sculpts, that it being almost "fantasy horus heresy" in how the company treats it is fine for their needs. Same for people who love the billion USR's and stacked profiles for every unit rather the simpler ones of sigmar/40k.

Frankly given the choice of armies out the gates I think they've been trying to smoke the nostalgia weed a little too heavily, the metal units are too expensive, the models aren't as great as people tend to remember. Keying into the armies with better existing ranges might have been a better move, or more iconic armies possibly. But if I wanted a rank and flank game, I'm not sure 30 year old plastic minis at cheap-end of GW prices are doing it for me, I'd probably accept the hit-and-miss sculpts and run kings of war.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Chief Librarian Mephiston wrote:
It’s what I expected. I don’t think we’ll see any more 10-man boxes for basic infantry again. It’ll probably be 20 man boxes for elite units and even bigger for more common units. They’ve already said Peasant Bowmen, for instance, will come in boxes of 32 models.

They said Peasant Bowmen and other future regiments.

I've repeated this several times. Here's the exact quote:

These regiments and other future regiments are returning in boxes that contain enough plastic miniatures to make a full regiment, not just a rank or two. With the Peasant Bowmen box, you’ll be able to build a unit of 32 archers, complete with a command group and Defensive Stakes. So dreams of creating massive armies of ranked-up troops will be well within your grasp.

No, they said “these regiments”.

Meaning the regiments in that article.

Which included the Bretonnian foot knights.

Do I need to underline the part about "and other future regiments"?

They're giving you enough to make multiple ranks or multiple smaller units.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Chief Librarian Mephiston wrote:
It’s what I expected. I don’t think we’ll see any more 10-man boxes for basic infantry again. It’ll probably be 20 man boxes for elite units and even bigger for more common units. They’ve already said Peasant Bowmen, for instance, will come in boxes of 32 models.

They said Peasant Bowmen and other future regiments.

I've repeated this several times. Here's the exact quote:

These regiments and other future regiments are returning in boxes that contain enough plastic miniatures to make a full regiment, not just a rank or two. With the Peasant Bowmen box, you’ll be able to build a unit of 32 archers, complete with a command group and Defensive Stakes. So dreams of creating massive armies of ranked-up troops will be well within your grasp.

Just says regiments will be sold with enough for a complete unit.

20 models for elite units and 30-32 models for cheaper ones (depending on sprue layout) would work for that.

But the new double size boxes aren't really any cheaper than two old boxes, are they? And we don't know if the net result is just getting shorted a command sprue.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
But the new double size boxes aren't really any cheaper than two old boxes, are they? And we don't know if the net result is just getting shorted a command sprue.

I think largely yes, they are cheaper, I believe tomb guard are about 20% cheaper than they were before being removed from sale. They were however extortionate beforehand.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
But the new double size boxes aren't really any cheaper than two old boxes, are they? And we don't know if the net result is just getting shorted a command sprue.

If HH is a guide there might be a small, but not massive, saving.

Command sprue would only really be an issue for the Bret peasants and orc boyz. By 8th it was only them and TK skeletons who had a separate command sprue vs command bits just being on the main sprues. But for TK the command sprue came with the bows and shields, so you can’t really short on that unless (like the army box) you have so many skeletons you can split them so many archers and so many melee.

And for the peasants the command sprue came with 4 of the bodies so you’d be getting another 4 basic troops instead.
Tbh, this is probably exactly what they’re doing for them (28 troops +4 cmd) given they’ve made rules for the 4th model on the command sprue. Means more stakes for archers though!

I'd expect a box of 10 foot knights to go for $50 - maybe even $60 as is the case with some kits these days - so yeah, 20 for $80 is definitely a discount over what normal pricing looks like.

On that note though, do we think that a box of 20 foot knights will be best used to build one unit of 20 or two units of 10? Bretonnia is usually an MSU type army, and even the starter box is giving you 2 units of 6 mounted knights. Suddenly jumping to a block of 20 on foot seems almost excessive vs splitting it into smaller units of 10.

Dudeface wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
But the new double size boxes aren't really any cheaper than two old boxes, are they? And we don't know if the net result is just getting shorted a command sprue.

I think largely yes, they are cheaper, I believe tomb guard are about 20% cheaper than they were before being removed from sale. They were however extortionate beforehand.

They released as 32,5€ for 10, and now 62,5€ for 20 means a saving of 2,5€ compared to 2011

Dudeface wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
But the new double size boxes aren't really any cheaper than two old boxes, are they? And we don't know if the net result is just getting shorted a command sprue.

I think largely yes, they are cheaper, I believe tomb guard are about 20% cheaper than they were before being removed from sale. They were however extortionate beforehand.

They used to be £25.5 for 10: https://elementgames.co.uk/beastmen/special-units/tomb-kings-tomb-guard

So about 6.8% cheaper with the new £47.5 double size box.

chaos0xomega wrote:
I'd expect a box of 10 foot knights to go for $50 - maybe even $60 as is the case with some kits these days - so yeah, 20 for $80 is definitely a discount over what normal pricing looks like.

On that note though, do we think that a box of 20 foot knights will be best used to build one unit of 20 or two units of 10? Bretonnia is usually an MSU type army, and even the starter box is giving you 2 units of 6 mounted knights. Suddenly jumping to a block of 20 on foot seems almost excessive vs splitting it into smaller units of 10.

I don't know beyond looks like a cheap way to make Questing Knights!

Dudeface wrote:
I think largely yes, they are cheaper, I believe tomb guard are about 20% cheaper than they were before being removed from sale. They were however extortionate beforehand.

Been trying to track down historic prices.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/369346.page

I found this thread from 2011 that shows a lot prices. Back then Tomb Guard were $41.25 for 10. I suspect they may have been further hikes over the years though.

I think there are going to be "cheap plastics". Certainly by the standards of today. Whether its "cheap enough" to persuade someone to start is another question.

 Ohman wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
But the new double size boxes aren't really any cheaper than two old boxes, are they? And we don't know if the net result is just getting shorted a command sprue.

I think largely yes, they are cheaper, I believe tomb guard are about 20% cheaper than they were before being removed from sale. They were however extortionate beforehand.

They used to be £25.5 for 10: https://elementgames.co.uk/beastmen/special-units/tomb-kings-tomb-guard

So about 6.8% cheaper with the new £47.5 double size box.

Ahh ok, I was adding on the price inflation tax of what 10 man elite units cost now, thank you!

 lord_blackfang wrote:
But the new double size boxes aren't really any cheaper than two old boxes, are they? And we don't know if the net result is just getting shorted a command sprue.

Well it isn't for the new units it seems. Since the new article says the foot knights come with enough for 2 commands so you can either do 2 10-mans or a 20-man. Plastic kits seem to be cheaper even before inflation than they were back in 2015 when the game died. The metal figures are more than inflation from 2015 would account for but I can't really tell if it's egregious (i.e. the ushabti were $15 before they went off sale) or if they are merely slightly over (if they were $20 before they went off sale). Right now they look like $28.33 per model. If they were $20 back in 2015 they'd cost $26.72 today. So not terribly unreasonable. But if they were $15 then they'd be $18.95 which is egregious.

Also @Dudeface

You win the internet for me today for presenting a reasonable and understanding stance.

Tyel wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
I think largely yes, they are cheaper, I believe tomb guard are about 20% cheaper than they were before being removed from sale. They were however extortionate beforehand.

Been trying to track down historic prices.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/369346.page

I found this thread from 2011 that shows a lot prices. Back then Tomb Guard were $41.25 for 10. I suspect they may have been further hikes over the years though.

I think there are going to be "cheap plastics". Certainly by the standards of today. Whether its "cheap enough" to persuade someone to start is another question.

This is essentially it, cheap by comparison not definition.

chaos0xomega wrote:
I'd expect a box of 10 foot knights to go for $50 - maybe even $60 as is the case with some kits these days - so yeah, 20 for $80 is definitely a discount over what normal pricing looks like.

On that note though, do we think that a box of 20 foot knights will be best used to build one unit of 20 or two units of 10? Bretonnia is usually an MSU type army, and even the starter box is giving you 2 units of 6 mounted knights. Suddenly jumping to a block of 20 on foot seems almost excessive vs splitting it into smaller units of 10.

20 gives you full rank bonus though, whereas 10 you only get one rank and won’t stick about too long after casualties. And Brets need their infantry as anvils.

Tbh 6 is a bit on the low side for KotR, iirc 8-12 was more common in 6th/7th. It’s probably just that they’ve put 3 sprues of 4 in and 6 looks neater than 12 in the version of the Lance formation TOW uses.

zombie_sky_diver wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

So, the BSB on Pegasus is its own kit. Shame they won't just sell you the Pegasus in packs of 3 and let you make your own Pegasus Knights!

Not yet! They want you to buy a bunch of the old Pegasus before releasing new ones so you want to replace the old and outdated.

Whaaaat? GW would NEVER do that. It’s not like they shoved the old deathwing terminators into a bunch of box sets recently right before the new models came out…oh wait

I’m not a huge fan of the helmets being split in half

I fell out of Warhammer after 3rd edition, but The Old World has piqued my interest. Using the two previewed armies as precedent, would anyone hazard a guess at which kits we're likely to see re-released for various factions? While this is a broad question, and I'd be very glad to see any lists of plastics/metals we have good reason to expect, I'm particular interested in Dwarfs.

The reason I ask is that when AoS was first released, some units pulled double duty there – the Black Orcs, for example. Those have now been superceded by an AoS-specific equivalent. The most recent Dwarfs (Ironbreakers/Irondrakes and Longbeards/Hammerers) were another example, and I'm wondering if the kit will now straddle both games, or if we're more likely to see older metals pulled out for the Old World.

Did dwarfs have a plastic warrior kit for the End Times, or were they like Lothern Seaguard, and never made it beyond the starter box?

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2024/01/02/old-world-almanack-designer-round-table-on-how-the-new-old-lore-was-written/

fun article. takeaways:

-Siege of Praag implied to maybe one day get a treatment, but directly stated to "not be anytime soon". Directly referenced as a "Siege of Terra" moment for the WHFB setting, and compared to it as the HH equivalent of the TOW narrative - the 30k game has been around for 10+ years now and still hasn't hit the Siege of Terra, so thats a pretty good indicator of how long we may need to wait before ever seeing the Siege of Praag. As per my previous comments on this, we might as well basically say its not going to happen because the timescale being discussed is lengthy and vague enough that we could be waiting 20-30 years or longer. Also, very directly stated that "our plan isn’t to start at the beginning and work our way, step-by-step, to the victory against Asavar Kul."

-Directly states (as I have said many times) that they will jump around in the timeline: "We are treating it as a whole playground of time that we can explore – we might do some of that sequentially, we might hop around".

-Directly states that Luminarks and Celestial Hurricanums aren't around as examples of things that don't exist and won't be in the game. I think this is our first sort of confirmation that there will be things that were present in the WHFB army lists that won't be usable in TOW? There is the implication that there are other things that DO exist in this timeline though, which may or may not be similar to these units and will allow these models to continue to be used (presumably as official/sanctioned "counts as" models?). Also more or less implies that flagellants won't necessarily be around as a unit (or if they are they are a rare choice) as there are "far fewer" people "wandering through the Empire and flagellating themselves".

-Steam tanks are definitely in. Not only are they in, but that whole thing about there only having been 12 of them? A myth, in actuality "there were loads of them". Steam tank armored company list confirmed (joke, unless...).

-Directly states (or very strongly implies) that they basically *wanted* VC and Skaven (at least) to not really be around in the story they are telling (for whatever reason). Again I state - it doesn't mean that there won't be vampire-led factions in the game, but I think the implied intent seems to be along the lines of exploring VC in different themes and contexts than they were in the past, as they specifically mention that the major VC leaders are all gone at this time, which implies minor leaders could be around. As the previous army was built and tailored to represent "major" VC, one can reasonably conclude that minor VC factions might not fit within that same mold and might look, operate, and behave differently (such as Zombie Pirates of the Vampire Coast).

-Directly states that just because characters were alive at this point doesn't necessarily mean they will be present in the game if they are not relevant to the story and setting. Seems to be a reference to Tyrion/Teclis IMO, who some have speculated would show up but known fluff really places them very solidly in Ulthuan at this time in their lives. Also references some characters who we may later be known as kings but are at this time still princes may show up, which I take to be a reference to Finubar, who prior to the Great War was a prince and was sent to the Old World to build alliances with the realms of men against the forces of Chaos, though from what I understand Bel-Hathor died before this period so absent a retcon there it would seem he should have already ascended to the Phoenix Throne by this point. Not sure who else that hint/tease might refer to, as I don't believe Tyrion/Teclis ever formally became kings? Theres also a hint of Magnus the Pious coming as a character eventually, as well as characters who are ancestors to later characters who haven't been born yet and hints about recognizable family names, especially with the Empire characters (I'm guessing that means that we see a character named like, I dunno, "Gunther Franz" the hint there is that its Karls great great great great great great great grandfather or something).

-Some stuff about the logic and rationale of Tomb Kings being evil, and how the community and/or fluff distorted the perception of what the Tomb Kings were over the years due to their opposition to chaos. Can't say I disagree with their take, once they explain it I have to agree the Tomb Kings certainly sound pretty much like the definition of what evil means in a practical sense.

-Hints about exiled Bretonnians using guns - not the knights themselves, but those who serve them. I think we saw somewhere something about Border Princes Brigands being a unit available to the Exile Army of Infamy, I guess this is a clue as to what they are - something akin to a men-at-arms or peasant with a gun. Goes hand in hand with the bombard as well.

Lord Zarkov wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
I'd expect a box of 10 foot knights to go for $50 - maybe even $60 as is the case with some kits these days - so yeah, 20 for $80 is definitely a discount over what normal pricing looks like.

On that note though, do we think that a box of 20 foot knights will be best used to build one unit of 20 or two units of 10? Bretonnia is usually an MSU type army, and even the starter box is giving you 2 units of 6 mounted knights. Suddenly jumping to a block of 20 on foot seems almost excessive vs splitting it into smaller units of 10.

20 gives you full rank bonus though, whereas 10 you only get one rank and won’t stick about too long after casualties. And Brets need their infantry as anvils.

Tbh 6 is a bit on the low side for KotR, iirc 8-12 was more common in 6th/7th. It’s probably just that they’ve put 3 sprues of 4 in and 6 looks neater than 12 in the version of the Lance formation TOW uses.

Yeah, but Bret anvil infantry is like... a block of 30-40 men at arms, not a block of knights... right? Is there room for small elite units of knights as hammer-flankers to the anvil formed by larger blocks of men-at-arms? Maybe building units of 20 is still a safer bet.

As for mounted knights - yeah I was already thinking that units of 6 might be too few. Seems like the algorithm here is each rank is 1 more model than the previous, so the unit size "algorithm" would be 1-3-6-10-15-21, etc. I would guess that 15 or 21 knights in a unit is probably too many. 10 seems like a reasonable number though, though it doesn't match up well with box counts.

Honestly I think its near impossible to predict. Especially when you consider how many current AoS armies are using original Old World models or upgrades of them.

Even with the big chunk of updates, the Seraphon are still basically Lizardmen and would work in the Old World setting just fine. Heck Skaven are still running around with metals and plastics from first edition releases of those models (or very close second edition).

Dark Elves are basically all there in Old World and would be the most likely to make the jump along with Dwarves if just because both are things that have had nothing at all really done with them in the AoS setting. The only thing Dark Elves had done was a campaign book that "soft" put the army back together with the Daughters of Khaine elements. Meanwhile regular Dwaves have had nothing and lore wise are still basically a destroyed, dispersed people.

 Apologist wrote:
I fell out of Warhammer after 3rd edition, but The Old World has piqued my interest. Using the two previewed armies as precedent, would anyone hazard a guess at which kits we're likely to see re-released for various factions? While this is a broad question, and I'd be very glad to see any lists of plastics/metals we have good reason to expect, I'm particular interested in Dwarfs.

The reason I ask is that when AoS was first released, some units pulled double duty there – the Black Orcs, for example. Those have now been superceded by an AoS-specific equivalent. The most recent Dwarfs (Ironbreakers/Irondrakes and Longbeards/Hammerers) were another example, and I'm wondering if the kit will now straddle both games, or if we're more likely to see older metals pulled out for the Old World.

Did dwarfs have a plastic warrior kit for the End Times, or were they like Lothern Seaguard, and never made it beyond the starter box?

Dwarfs did have quite good collection of plastic kits, warriors included.

I think Slayers, flame cannon and other oddities were metal/finecast.

 Apologist wrote:
I fell out of Warhammer after 3rd edition, but The Old World has piqued my interest. Using the two previewed armies as precedent, would anyone hazard a guess at which kits we're likely to see re-released for various factions? While this is a broad question, and I'd be very glad to see any lists of plastics/metals we have good reason to expect, I'm particular interested in Dwarfs.

The reason I ask is that when AoS was first released, some units pulled double duty there – the Black Orcs, for example. Those have now been superceded by an AoS-specific equivalent. The most recent Dwarfs (Ironbreakers/Irondrakes and Longbeards/Hammerers) were another example, and I'm wondering if the kit will now straddle both games, or if we're more likely to see older metals pulled out for the Old World.

Did dwarfs have a plastic warrior kit for the End Times, or were they like Lothern Seaguard, and never made it beyond the starter box?

Only metal dwarf minis left are the Cogsmith, Runelord, and Warden King. I expect them and the 2 plastic kits you referenced to get cut from Age of Sigmar entirely and replaced by new AoS specific dwarf cities of sigmar kits, while the existing kits find their new permanent homes in TOW (at least until GW gets around to replacing them, anyway). GW has generally been moving towards distinct model ranges for all their games with minimal if any crossover, so I doubt they remain available in both games.

As someone who joined the hobby in 2019ish I have no nostalgia for WHFB and have only kept a cursory look at TOW until last weekend. The ramping up of the content on WarComm has me intrigued now but I'm on the fence as to whether to jump in.

On the one hand I'd like to try out a rank and file game as the whole strategic block formations appeals to me. The Bret launch box looks like a great paint project at a minimum and I love the look of the new units.

On the other hand so much stuff is in metal and resin it puts a real dampener on my enthusiasm. I don't have the time, space or patience for either medium unfortunately. Also there seems to be no local buzz, despite knowing people who played WHFB no one I know is getting out old armies for this. So I do worry I'll invest in a game going nowhere.

At £125ish from independent game stores the Bret box is just out of the Chrimbo cash budget but not by much.

Are there any other new to WHFB players planning to jump in on this? Any glaring red flags experienced players are seeing?

WRT to the ‘future kings who are princes’, IMO the dwarfs are a good bet in that regard.

In G&F Gotrek mentions his father (or might be grandfather) fighting at Hel Fenn against Mannfred, and that’s earlier than the TOW setting by some time.

So the likes of Thorgrim Grudgebearer and Ungrim Ironfist should be about already but not yet kings. Indeed Thorgrim was crowned just after the GWAC in 2304, so would definitely be active, though his father Alriksson would be High King (who apparently fought with distinction in the battle for Kislev) .

Given the Border Princes are right in Thorgrim’s back yard, I could well see a Prince Thorgrim coming with the first Dwarf AJ (possibly with High King Alriksson as well, using Thorgrim’s old model).

chaos0xomega wrote:
Only metal dwarf minis left are the Cogsmith, Runelord, and Warden King.

None of those Dwarf minis are metal, they're all plastic.

The Warden King is also Belegar Ironhammer, who unless I am mistaken, isn't around at this point. At least not in as the Exile King of Eight Peaks.

chaos0xomega wrote:
-Some stuff about the logic and rationale of Tomb Kings being evil, and how the community and/or fluff distorted the perception of what the Tomb Kings were over the years due to their opposition to chaos. Can't say I disagree with their take, once they explain it I have to agree the Tomb Kings certainly sound pretty much like the definition of what evil means in a practical sense.

Indeed and I totally agree with the analysis of the TKs as well. It's the same kind of idea that presents Nagash as a "good" guy because he opposes Chaos, when the reality is Nagash opposes Chaos because he wants to rule everything and force everyone to worship him.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2024/01/02/old-world-almanack-designer-round-table-on-how-the-new-old-lore-was-written/

Lore! Mighty Lore!

ah, my bad then, always assumed they were metal as the details on the sculpts didn't look as crisp as I would have expected them to be in plastic, though I think now that I think about it I have a plastic cogsmith mini sitting around somewhere at home, so I should have known that one at least was plastic.

So yeah, all the metal dwarves have been purged from Age of Sigmar in that case.

 Sotahullu wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2024/01/02/old-world-almanack-designer-round-table-on-how-the-new-old-lore-was-written/

Lore! Mighty Lore!

Was already posted (few posts above)

The Cogsmith was removed in the last CoS update and the Runelord comes on the fancy plinth that only takes a base swap (though most of the images on the webstore have it on the square base lol).

I am interested to see how Dorfs proceed with both TOW and AoS. I think they're very like Skaven in that the design team wasn't sure what to do with them post-End Times.

I think the only metal left is in Skaven


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gert wrote:
The Cogsmith was removed in the last CoS update and the Runelord comes on the fancy plinth that only takes a base swap (though most of the images on the webstore have it on the square base lol).

I am interested to see how Dorfs proceed with both TOW and AoS. I think they're very like Skaven in that the design team wasn't sure what to do with them post-End Times.

I'm convinced Dwaves had an update planned earlier in AoS that got torn up due to the Pandemic or internal political/finance shifts in GW. You read any of the Gotrek books and almost every single one after the first (which were more audio dramas) and they have a grumpy Gotrek starting to try and work toward rebuilding his people into something.

Each time it kind of fizzles out in the end, but its very much there as a running theme that makes me think its one of those nods the lore writers gave to the story writer to use because it was going to happen "at some point" in the wargame side of things. However like everything pretty much in Cities of Sigmar, its had a huge question mark over its head. Cities very much feels like the army that wasn't planned and kind of hung around with things that GW wasn't going to use or didn't plan to use or didn't know what to do with or something

Dudeface wrote:

Frankly given the choice of armies out the gates I think they've been trying to smoke the nostalgia weed a little too heavily, the metal units are too expensive, the models aren't as great as people tend to remember. Keying into the armies with better existing ranges might have been a better move, or more iconic armies possibly. But if I wanted a rank and flank game, I'm not sure 30 year old plastic minis at cheap-end of GW prices are doing it for me, I'd probably accept the hit-and-miss sculpts and run kings of war.

Ok but why limit yourself to Kings of War/mantic? Play kings, by all means, as it's a great game. But the market is not a dichotomy between those two manufacturers

Multiple human armies can be made by kitbashing historical kits together. Wargames Atlantic has skeleton warriors in plastic that are miles better than GW's decades old TK sculpts, that have a chariot/cav kit coming that is the same level. There's also conversion bits via atlantic digital to make those "Egyptian" in feel.

There are so many ways to to convert units from any of the big companies games. I try to showcase smaller or less well known ranges in my store because of this. I've found hobbyists tend to pigeon hole themselves into one particular range from one particular manufacturer. This hobby is an art kaleidoscope.

 McDougall Designs wrote:

Ok but why limit yourself to Kings of War/mantic? Play kings, by all means, as it's a great game. But the market is not a dichotomy between those two manufacturers

Multiple human armies can be made by kitbashing historical kits together. Wargames Atlantic has skeleton warriors in plastic that are miles better than GW's decades old TK sculpts, that have a chariot/cav kit coming that is the same level. There's also conversion bits via atlantic digital to make those "Egyptian" in feel.

There are so many ways to to convert units from any of the big companies games. I try to showcase smaller or less well known ranges in my store because of this. I've found hobbyists tend to pigeon hole themselves into one particular range from one particular manufacturer. This hobby is an art kaleidoscope.

Doors wide open when it comes to 28mm fantasy. There's dozens of great kits available from multiple companies. Plastic kits, resin, metal you name it. That's without even touching on print on demand or home printed fantasy miniatures.

Just starting an Empire force for KoW with mainly Perry plastic boxes for line infantry , bows, foot knights and heavy and light cavalry. I've a few Highland Miniature prints for the more exotic stuff.

Just finished a Halfing army mainly using TTcombat's beautiful and extensive resin range.

I am interested in a return of rank and flank Warhammer but the prices for both miniatures and rules are eye-wateringly expensive compared to the rest of the very healthy 28mm fantasy scene. Quality is an issue as well - rules are unproven and already book heavy - some of the miniatures are ancient - both factions at launch are a bit niche.

 Gert wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Only metal dwarf minis left are the Cogsmith, Runelord, and Warden King.

None of those Dwarf minis are metal, they're all plastic.

The Warden King is also Belegar Ironhammer, who unless I am mistaken, isn't around at this point. At least not in as the Exile King of Eight Peaks.

chaos0xomega wrote:
-Some stuff about the logic and rationale of Tomb Kings being evil, and how the community and/or fluff distorted the perception of what the Tomb Kings were over the years due to their opposition to chaos. Can't say I disagree with their take, once they explain it I have to agree the Tomb Kings certainly sound pretty much like the definition of what evil means in a practical sense.

Indeed and I totally agree with the analysis of the TKs as well. It's the same kind of idea that presents Nagash as a "good" guy because he opposes Chaos, when the reality is Nagash opposes Chaos because he wants to rule everything and force everyone to worship him.

Now, if only they could un-retcon Malekith's 'always destiend to be king' nonsense.

 Shadow Walker wrote:

 Sotahullu wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2024/01/02/old-world-almanack-designer-round-table-on-how-the-new-old-lore-was-written/

Lore! Mighty Lore!

Was already posted (few posts above)

Yeah, best not to draw too much attention to it. That article reads like a J.J. Abrams guide to sequels/reboots/remakes/all of the above. I don't have enough palms I can apply to my face to adequately comment on it.

 RaptorusRex wrote:
I like Fabelzel's Chorfs, so much so that one is my avatar at current.

Thank you VERY much for that recommendation - much appreciated!

They look great, and if Chaos Dwarfs actually get rules for use in the 'new' game, I'll be getting some...

leopard wrote:

not so much the price itself, but not spending that without a chance to see it and read a few actually independent reviews of it, and by that time likely sold out so will have to wait and see

Well then it's just wait a bit and get. The boxes aren't limited one and done print run. More akin to legions box that already got restock after selling out.

 Gert wrote:
The Cogsmith was removed in the last CoS update and the Runelord comes on the fancy plinth that only takes a base swap (though most of the images on the webstore have it on the square base lol).

I am interested to see how Dorfs proceed with both TOW and AoS. I think they're very like Skaven in that the design team wasn't sure what to do with them post-End Times.

I'm interested in that as well, the 8th edition fantasy Dwarves I'm not particularly fond of at all. Really don't like how they look, the armour and design style of that period seems really off to me.

 Geifer wrote:

 Shadow Walker wrote:

 Sotahullu wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2024/01/02/old-world-almanack-designer-round-table-on-how-the-new-old-lore-was-written/

Lore! Mighty Lore!

Was already posted (few posts above)

Yeah, best not to draw too much attention to it. That article reads like a J.J. Abrams guide to sequels/reboots/remakes/all of the above. I don't have enough palms I can apply to my face to adequately comment on it.

Haha yes so accurate.

Personally my favorite was that the world was always going to be destroyed.

“How can we find a way to justify not putting in Skaven and VC to preserve our AoS sales?? Oh I’ve got it!”

I mean fluffwise, its kinda true. From pretty early on the WHFB setting was painted as a doomed world. We had that discussion in this very thread like 100 pages back. The idea that GW would actually one day, yknow, actually let the prophesized end and the death of the setting happen, on the other hand, was - I don't think - ever actually on anyone's bingo cards, not even GWs.

chaos0xomega wrote:
I mean fluffwise, its kinda true. From pretty early on the WHFB setting was painted as a doomed world. We had that discussion in this very thread like 100 pages back. The idea that GW would actually one day, yknow, actually let the prophesized end and the death of the setting happen, on the other hand, was - I don't think - ever actually on anyone's bingo cards, not even GWs.

The idea of an 'Everchosen' uniting the forces of Chaos for one great, final war was added only around twenty years ago. Before that, Chaos' victory was inevitable, but far, far away from happening within the lifetime of the 'present day' characters. It was more a case of the constant conflict between the free peoples would degrade them enough that Chaos would simply win through attrition, an inevitability brought about by the refusal of the nations to form a true, lasting peace in the face of an existential threat.

'Doomed' in the sense that the heat-death of the universe will one day occur.

Also lets not forget it was a super heroic fantasy setting too. The idea of everything just "ending" wasn't on the cards for many. A super grim last-battle that has evil nearly winning - or outright winning and then triggering some massive event.

Eg the Old Ones return and blast 7bells out of Chaos and the Greater Demons. Or some ancient artifact or some last-stand-united force of Men, Elves, Dwarves, Lizard and more uniting and casting some powerful spell or defeating the Everchosen and sending Chaos into sprawling in-fighting etc..



Ergo even if GW did the End Times - no one expected them to actually blow it all up and throw it all out the window as they did.

Again we hit that wall that Age of Sigmar was just such a crazy move. I can say that creative wise it was a smart move in that it freed their creative team up and you can feel that creative energy in the AoS releases a LOT right now.

But yeah it was not a smart move not the right way to do it. Especially since you could have just shattered the Old World on a major war; pushed time forward 100years and boom you've got enough room for lots of old factions to still be around and lots of new ones and such.

I've said it many times- not a single model in AoS is so unique that it could not appear in Old World with some adjustment to the lore of model/setting.

from all the interviews we got last year, we know by now that AoS was the idea of the IP guys who wanted to remove anything were they did not saw the same potential as with 40k
that it always has been planned that way simply ignores that we already had an End Times campaign for Warhammer Fantasy were Archaeon would have actually won and GW alterared the result so that the world continuous without changes

chaos0xomega wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2024/01/02/old-world-almanack-designer-round-table-on-how-the-new-old-lore-was-written/
fun article. takeaways:

agree with most of it yet I am not sure if anything from that is positive
"this has always been the background" thing is just stupid same as it was always planned that Archeon blows up the world

that models that don't fit the background but not alternatives from GW are available are fine in TOW yet models that are still used in AoS are not also gives us a hint on what to expect from the other releases
and I cannot find it any more but did they ever confirm that the core armies get all the models from 8th playable, or was this just for legacy pdf armies?

that moral is only not black/white during the End Times but always has been strictly black/white in the early background is a stupid argument to justify things and takes away a lot of flavour from the setting


Automatically Appended Next Post:

chaos0xomega wrote:
I mean fluffwise, its kinda true. From pretty early on the WHFB setting was painted as a doomed world. We had that discussion in this very thread like 100 pages back. The idea that GW would actually one day, yknow, actually let the prophesized end and the death of the setting happen, on the other hand, was - I don't think - ever actually on anyone's bingo cards, not even GWs.

same way as the galaxy in 40k is doomed to be eaten by Tyranids and only dead rocks are left behind were the Necrons build their eternal kingdom

yet just because this is written on the wall does not mean that it was planned since the beginning that 40k will end

From various things I've heard, it sounds like the original plan was to do more of an "earth shattering event" and move the timeline forward as you said while keeping some of the core in place. I've heard that Stormcast Eternals were originally planned to be a square-based WHFB army, for example, and the idea of featuring them in a whole new game came later. It seems likely that someone somewhere in a position of influence and power figured that the backlash of doing that would probably be severe enough, and armies like Stormcast met with enough resistance and lack of acceptance from the existing old guard, that there was no sense in settling or half-assing it and it was better to just go all-out with the reset and clean house and start over with a blank slate.

I think some of the earlier AoS releases certainly look like stuff that you'd expect to see in a post-apocalyptic WHFB setting. Fyreslayers and Kharadron Overlords for sure look like what happens when the race of dwarves split in two, with a bunch going to self-imposed slayer-exile into the volcanic remnants of their former holds, and the other half doubling-down on their gyro-tech and taking to the skies to begin life anew away from the goblins and skaven that have infested many of their remaining former homes and driven them from the mountains they once called home. Idoneth are clearly the result of the old WHFB era fishmen memes turned into an actual army. Khorne Bloodbound fits with the style of the chaos warriors of the era, just more khornate.

But some factions look like nothing that would fit there - Ossiarch Bonereapers I can't ever have seen fitting ihe modern cities of sigmar range too much of a fantastical departure from the more gritty realism in the design stylings favored by human armies in the WHFB setting. Kruleboyz are a vast departure from old world orcs and goblins, lumineth are less grounded than whfb high elves are and would not have played well with existing HE collections, and Stormcast would only work as "good guy daemons"/aengels (TM) sent down from the heavens by Sigmar to protect his followers in times of need (ala fantasy magic space marines) which would have only ever really resulted in complaints from the grogs. I think we've seen enough feedback over the years from various fans to know that many of the designs for AoS would not have met with acceptance had they been released for WHFB. The feedback regarding a number of AoS ranges by WHFB purists (and even some AoS fans) has been pretty consistent that theres many things perceived as too over the top. There are some things which met with acceptance and adoption by WHFB fans (new chaos warriors, blood knights, etc.), but there are many things that did not as well (hell even Cities of Sigmar got a lot of hate from many who felt the design of the armor and weapons was too fantastical or whatever). You can also look at stuff like Kislev for TWW which had a lot of complaints that it was "AoS-ified" or "too over the top high fantasy for the gritty low fantasy WHFB setting" because it had too much ice magic and bears instead of sticking to normal dudes with normal weapons and armor and horses.

Wtf happened to that post lol but I agree and disagree, yes kharadron could be an evolution of dwarves, but that's exactly what they are, just in a related setting.

something with the firewalls and security measures at work doesn't play well with dakka, causes segments of text string to get duplicated and randomly re-entered into the post at one or more other points. Sometimes its just a single letter repeated once in a random spot, sometimes its entire paragraphs repeated a half dozen times.

Been dealing with it for ~8 years now, you're I think the first to ever bring it up as I'm usually pretty quick about re-editing it.

agree and disagree as well

yet talking about GW at a time were they did not cared about Feedback at all and even their FAQ/Errata was on a level of "rules are guidelines, your own fault if you take them as written"

that company would not base the decisions on feedback

also there is the rumour that the original plans for 8th 40k was to be the very same as with AoS regarding rules, and only changed because they saw that their ideas did not work well with the community

chaos0xomega wrote:


But some factions look like nothing that would fit there - Ossiarch Bonereapers I can't ever have seen fitting ihe modern cities of sigmar range too much of a fantastical departure from the more gritty realism in the design stylings favored by human armies in the WHFB setting. Kruleboyz are a vast departure from old world orcs and goblins, lumineth are less grounded than whfb high elves are and would not have played well with existing HE collections, and Stormcast would only work as "good guy daemons"/aengels (TM) sent down from the heavens by Sigmar to protect his followers in times of need (ala fantasy magic space marines) which would have only ever really resulted in complaints from the grogs. I think we've seen enough feedback over the years from various fans to know that many of the designs for AoS would not have met with acceptance had they been released for WHFB. The feedback regarding a number of AoS ranges by WHFB purists (and even some AoS fans) has been pretty consistent that theres many things perceived as too over the top. There are some things which met with acceptance and adoption by WHFB fans (new chaos warriors, blood knights, etc.), but there are many things that did not as well (hell even Cities of Sigmar got a lot of hate from many who felt the design of the armor and weapons was too fantastical or whatever). You can also look at stuff like Kislev for TWW which had a lot of complaints that it was "AoS-ified" or "too over the top high fantasy for the gritty low fantasy WHFB setting" because it had too much ice magic and bears instead of sticking to normal dudes with normal weapons and armor and horses.

Actually I'd argue that Kruelboyz are closer to Old World orks than the rest of the ork range. The AoS orks right now feel very much like 40K orks in fantasy right down to their general intelligence, behaviour and mannerisms.
Kruelboyz feel much more like they are from the Black Orks line and closer to Middle Earth orcs. Cunning, dark, nasty, smart, you know proper stuff of nightmare orks rather than jovial football hooligans on steroids orks.


Most of the AoS factions are more fanciful in design I agree there, however at the same time we were getting that slowly with Old World. The Ossiarchs first 2 units were Old World End Times models; meanwhile the Daughters of Khaine were dancing around on rank and file bases before that. Part of it is simply that Old World had old models and a different approach to sculpting even without considering its need for rank and file. With some sculpt adjustments many of the AoS models could likely rank-up pretty well; and the big fancy hero/leader models were again coming for the game. We saw the big new Forgeworld sized Greater Demons appearing in End Times.

Old World did have this strange ability to be a low and high fantasy setting in the minds of fans at the very same time. Many of its depictions and gameplay models suggested really low fantasy - Game of Thrones early books style. With a few mages here and there but mostly grim dark peasants and monsters. At the same time the Lore had huge epic fantasy battles with vast powerful mages clashing; living siege engines; dragons; airships - and that's just the stuff Gotrek and Felix encountered.

AoS is very much firmly high/epic fantasy. But again GW could have done that with Old World after the "End Times" just shaking things up to a "New Times" or "After the Shattering" or something setting.



Again the whole move to AoS was a broken mess on multiple fronts. It's had some good results, but lets be honest that no sane company would have done what GW did at the time.

The move to AoS worked for them though. Maybe not as well as it theoretically could have under more optimal execution, but it still, long term, has paid off bigly.

Personally, I would have taken a slightly different approach - there certainly would not have been a 3 month period of silence between killing the setting and announcing AoS (supposedly not the original plan or intent per James Hewitt) that left everyone adrift and speculating, the follow-up would have been more clear-voiced and immediate. I also certainly would not have gak-canned the full rulebook that had been developed for the game at the last minute and put all the rules out in a brochure with no points system, etc. Setting wise, I also would have, I think, more directly linked the setting to the WHFB:

Rather than super-magical realm bubbles floating in the void I'd have had everyone living on the shattered landmasses of the old planet drifting through space, which would allow for the retention of existing locations and points of interest while allowing you to literally redraw the map as to how things fit together and how folks navigate from point to point and making the distances between parts of the world physically larger and non-contiguous, etc. It would only be like maybe a couple hundred years after the end times occurred, the majority of characters are dead as we knew them, some have ascended to godhood, but some live on the fringes of society in disgrace or exile, etc. The existing factions and lands are likewise now meaningless, the Empire, Bretonnia, etc. have endured a post-apocalyptic societal collapse, but new cultures and kingdoms formed around different shared identities and philosophies, etc. So you still have some continuity and through-lines across the setting, even though "the Empire" is dead and gone, one or more human factions (amongst others) have taken up residence in the fractured hellscape of its former location and built a new capital in the crater of what was once altdorf or something. It leaves fans with a less abstract understanding of how you got from A to B and how things changed and evolved, and leaves even more room for easter eggs and hints as to what happened to whom and where, etc.

Never understood how people can complain about AoS models when fantasy had this post ww2 thing:

WorldEdgePlayer wrote:
Never understood how people can complain about AoS models when fantasy had this post ww2 thing:

Spoiler:

That was very late 8th though, so practically knocking on the door of AoS.

The 6th Ed gyrocopter was much more reasonable for the setting.

That's just an extended gyrocopter. Let alone they had zeppelins for bombing runs.

Thing is lore wise that's accurate for what the Dwarves could do - we had even more similar things in Man O War.


I 100% agree that AoS now is doing really well - some bits are still a pain like the multiple realms which I just feel need GW to push out a dozen bits of high detail art for each to really show us how they live in those settings (not just fight). Otherwise a lot of it works and as I've said earlier, the creative juices are flowing and you can really just feel that the designers are being let loose on the setting in a great way that's really let GW push more original designs of their own.


The only thing that feels like its holding its back are still things like the Dark Elves and bits of CoS that aren't human - or things like old Skaven models. So things where we aren't sure what GW are going to do or where we are waiting for an expected major expansion.


Heck some of the army splintering worked really well. I'd argue whlist most felt flat/dull/or failed - Death and Chaos Demons have splintered REALLY well into separate forces that really benefit. Esp Demons - having a well rounded army per god really feels very lore accurate and way more potentially fun than all in 1 army where you can't really give each god too much because the other gods are doing their bit.

Personally I'm really looking forward to GW one day doing new demon models! It's shocking that in 30-40 years we still have the same demon model concepts. I want to see other demons for Slaanesh not just fiends and seekers

Well for Skaven there's that rumour that won't go away that they're one side of 4th ed in the summer. In which case they'll get the full revamp that goes with that.

Dark elves and dwarves i feel will get the next Cities refresh. They'll become more in line with the new range and the older stuff will get kicked to old world. To be frank, i feel something dwarfish will come before they get an old world release.

Yep strong rumours that they'll be the other half of a new edition - which will be phenomenal for them as that's just the kind of bulk of releases in one go to really give GW room to replace a lot of old sculpts and have some breathing room to add some new ones.

The "strong rumours" about a skaven range refresh are just a bunch of vague favs from Whitefang in the AoS forum. There's nothing else, nothing, negative, zero patatero, just copium from despertate fans thinking that GW will care about skavens for 2 goddamn minutes. Too many years waiting for them to deliver to raise my hype up and not think that skavens are the new bretonians.

Stop saying "this is most likely to happen" because I can promise you no one on the fanbase knows, theres no data nor more rumours about this, and youre fooling either other por despertate skaven fans, or yourselves. Until a literal trailer/camera potato isnt shown, there are no ratmen under Altdorf...

Whitefang has had a near 100% accuracy rate. Even if he's vague, there's a strong possibility.

Garrac wrote:
The "strong rumours" about a skaven range refresh are just a bunch of vague favs from Whitefang in the AoS forum. There's nothing else, nothing, negative, zero patatero, just copium from despertate fans thinking that GW will care about skavens for 2 goddamn minutes. Too many years waiting for them to deliver to raise my hype up and not think that skavens are the new bretonians.

Stop saying "this is most likely to happen" because I can promise you no one on the fanbase knows, theres no data nor more rumours about this, and youre fooling either other por despertate skaven fans, or yourselves. Until a literal trailer/camera potato isnt shown, there are no ratmen under Altdorf...

Ah. Whitefang has just been incredibly lucky guessing correctly before?

I mean you DO know whitefang's track record right? Surely you wouldn't claim whitefang is wrong without at least having slight clue about his track record like some noob would you?

Tallonian4th wrote:
Any glaring red flags experienced players are seeing?

GW wrote it.
They are releasing ancient plastic kits at a markup.
The rules follow 40k's model (multiple overpriced books rendered obsolete in short order).

It's as obvious a minimum effort nostalgia cash-grab as one can get. Don't fall for it.

tneva82 wrote:

Garrac wrote:
The "strong rumours" about a skaven range refresh are just a bunch of vague favs from Whitefang in the AoS forum. There's nothing else, nothing, negative, zero patatero, just copium from despertate fans thinking that GW will care about skavens for 2 goddamn minutes. Too many years waiting for them to deliver to raise my hype up and not think that skavens are the new bretonians.

Stop saying "this is most likely to happen" because I can promise you no one on the fanbase knows, theres no data nor more rumours about this, and youre fooling either other por despertate skaven fans, or yourselves. Until a literal trailer/camera potato isnt shown, there are no ratmen under Altdorf...

Ah. Whitefang has just been incredibly lucky guessing correctly before?

I mean you DO know whitefang's track record right? Surely you wouldn't claim whitefang is wrong without at least having slight clue about his track record like some noob would you?

Do you also know how vague are the original likes, right? How LITTLE information do they hold? How its not the first time the skaven fans get their hype up for whitefang gossiping for then GW to deliver only the bare minimum like some noob, would you?

Whitefang can be liking for a whole range refresh with 20 kits, a warcry warband, or another underworlds band, or just a lord mini. It wouldnt be the first time.

I won't run into desperation, neither consume copium for this time. Trailer or nothing.

 Sotahullu wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2024/01/02/old-world-almanack-designer-round-table-on-how-the-new-old-lore-was-written/

Lore! Mighty Lore!

Urgh. That article has really put me off TOW as a game in its own right. I'm honestly not too bothered about their narrative structure at this point, I'm happy to keep playing games set in the WFB sandbox as it once was. I'm more than happy to just see models back on sale.

What the H-E-double hockey sticks are they saying when they talk about running the narrative 'sequentially' or maybe 'hopping around'. It honestly sounds like they have no plan, so why even bother with a sequential narrative. This was always my biggest gripe about AoS, you can't run a sequential narrative where the status quo has to be returned to at the end anyway AND have it mean anything overall. If you are instead going to bounce around the timeline of the narrative, there is no reason to have excluded many of the armies they did for not being part of the direct story. Just release DE, Lizardmen, ogres etc as part of this hopping around.

I'd rather they be brutally honest and say they had a budget to bring the game back and removing armies was the only way to stick to it. All these fluff reasons defy any real logic one they introduce this bouncing around the timeline.

I do think its funny they are excluding the magic based empire models (nice big empire centre piece models at that) but are quick to inform us that steam tanks were all the rage and we can expect to see the WFB rendition of the Battle of Kursk. Surprised about the bit that might hint things like flagellants are going to be less commonly seen (possibly. Hard to tell with GW and these sort of articles. People tend to read into them too much, so could be what I'm doing here)

Garrac wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Garrac wrote:
The "strong rumours" about a skaven range refresh are just a bunch of vague favs from Whitefang in the AoS forum. There's nothing else, nothing, negative, zero patatero, just copium from despertate fans thinking that GW will care about skavens for 2 goddamn minutes. Too many years waiting for them to deliver to raise my hype up and not think that skavens are the new bretonians.

Stop saying "this is most likely to happen" because I can promise you no one on the fanbase knows, theres no data nor more rumours about this, and youre fooling either other por despertate skaven fans, or yourselves. Until a literal trailer/camera potato isnt shown, there are no ratmen under Altdorf...

Ah. Whitefang has just been incredibly lucky guessing correctly before?

I mean you DO know whitefang's track record right? Surely you wouldn't claim whitefang is wrong without at least having slight clue about his track record like some noob would you?

Do you also know how vague are the original likes, right? How LITTLE information do they hold? How its not the first time the skaven fans get their hype up for whitefang gossiping for then GW to deliver only the bare minimum like some noob, would you?

Whitefang can be liking for a whole range refresh with 20 kits, a warcry warband, or another underworlds band, or just a lord mini. It wouldnt be the first time.

I won't run into desperation, neither consume copium for this time. Trailer or nothing.

The last skaven thing Whitefang liked was that 4th edition would be Skaven Vs Stormcast. Whitefang has the best track record of any Warhammer rumour monger. They have never been wrong.
On the AoS front there is detailed description of normal life in the RPG books.
.I'm interested to see what they do with the dwarfs. They're the one faction where the really old metals absolutely hold up. I'd love to see gw do a made to order of some of the classic marauder dwarves like this.

Welp now I've gotta build a Kursk of Steam Tanks.

 Mallo wrote:

 Sotahullu wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2024/01/02/old-world-almanack-designer-round-table-on-how-the-new-old-lore-was-written/

Lore! Mighty Lore!

Urgh. That article has really put me off TOW as a game in its own right. I'm honestly not too bothered about their narrative structure at this point, I'm happy to keep playing games set in the WFB sandbox as it once was. I'm more than happy to just see models back on sale.

What the H-E-double hockey sticks are they saying when they talk about running the narrative 'sequentially' or maybe 'hopping around'. It honestly sounds like they have no plan, so why even bother with a sequential narrative. This was always my biggest gripe about AoS, you can't run a sequential narrative where the status quo has to be returned to at the end anyway AND have it mean anything overall. If you are instead going to bounce around the timeline of the narrative, there is no reason to have excluded many of the armies they did for not being part of the direct story. Just release DE, Lizardmen, ogres etc as part of this hopping around.

I'd rather they be brutally honest and say they had a budget to bring the game back and removing armies was the only way to stick to it. All these fluff reasons defy any real logic one they introduce this bouncing around the timeline.

I do think its funny they are excluding the magic based empire models (nice big empire centre piece models at that) but are quick to inform us that steam tanks were all the rage and we can expect to see the WFB rendition of the Battle of Kursk. Surprised about the bit that might hint things like flagellants are going to be less commonly seen (possibly. Hard to tell with GW and these sort of articles. People tend to read into them too much, so could be what I'm doing here)

You seem to have completely misunderstood what they're talking about and what they are planning. The games narrative is set between 2201 and 2304-ish in one specific part of the planet that was the WHFB setting. During that 100 year period, the skaven are underground, vampires are dead or hiding, Ogres, dark elves, lizardmen, chaos dwarves can't be bothered, and the powers of Chaos aren't strong enough to manifest Daemons. The start of the game is set in 2276 in the vicinity of the Border princes. After they tell the opening narrative in 2276 Border Princes, they may then start telling story in 2277 or 2278 in kislev or the moot, but they may also jump back to 2201 in bretonnia when King Louen declared the wrra try Crusade against the greenskins, or 2297 when Maldred of Mousillon imprisons the Fey Enchantress and caused the Affair of the False Grail. Regardless of how they proceed, the point us that they are only hopping around between 2201 and 2304-ish, during which time there are no dark elves, lizardmen, ogres, skaven, etc.

Definitely has nothing to do woth budget, most of the factions they cut have complete model ranges in active production today, only thing they need is a different colored box to sell them in. Entirely to do with those factions being core to AoS identity and being more valuable to the AoS IP than TOW.

Chikout wrote:
Whitefang has the best track record of any Warhammer rumour monger. They have never been wrong.

That is not 100% true, there was that Spider Incarnate with the Gallet book that never happened. But there is likely something that happened in the background for that one since we even have a rumour engine for it so so idea if it was originally planned for the gallet book and changed for some reason or if that was wrong.

He still has the best track record anyway and even Valrak (who also has a very good track record) who normally never says anything about AoS, said Skaven would be in the 4th starter

IIRC we got a separate rumor that the box w the first incarnate sold like crap and there was negative feedback about the concept and all that. Seems probable GW gak canned it or delayed it to rework the concept.

 Matrindur wrote:


He still has the best track record anyway and even Valrak (who also has a very good track record) who normally never says anything about AoS, said Skaven would be in the 4th starter

Valrak has said something about skavens that is from his source? Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmm, link? Then Ill be able to trust it all a little bit more, but not very much.

Like, went from 0% hype to 1%. Still trailer or nothing further.

Take the AoS chat to the AoS thread please, this is for TOW.

Chopstick wrote:
What are those curves on the oversized poleaxe ? Did they let Orc forge their weapons now.

No kidding. Those things aren't halberds. They'd break under their own weight.

That was one of the reasons I LIKED the Bret aesthetic. The weapons were generally realistic, not Orc-stupid-big.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Shakalooloo wrote:

 Gert wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Only metal dwarf minis left are the Cogsmith, Runelord, and Warden King.

None of those Dwarf minis are metal, they're all plastic.

The Warden King is also Belegar Ironhammer, who unless I am mistaken, isn't around at this point. At least not in as the Exile King of Eight Peaks.

chaos0xomega wrote:
-Some stuff about the logic and rationale of Tomb Kings being evil, and how the community and/or fluff distorted the perception of what the Tomb Kings were over the years due to their opposition to chaos. Can't say I disagree with their take, once they explain it I have to agree the Tomb Kings certainly sound pretty much like the definition of what evil means in a practical sense.

Indeed and I totally agree with the analysis of the TKs as well. It's the same kind of idea that presents Nagash as a "good" guy because he opposes Chaos, when the reality is Nagash opposes Chaos because he wants to rule everything and force everyone to worship him.

Now, if only they could un-retcon Malekith's 'always destiend to be king' nonsense.

Well, at this point in the lore, he's still just the King of the Dark Elves (regardless of what he claims) and someone else is the King of the High Elves...

 MalusCalibur wrote:

Tallonian4th wrote:
Any glaring red flags experienced players are seeing?

GW wrote it.
They are releasing ancient plastic kits at a markup.
The rules follow 40k's model (multiple overpriced books rendered obsolete in short order).

It's as obvious a minimum effort nostalgia cash-grab as one can get. Don't fall for it.

Well for some of us that only care about rules and not minis, it seems top quality: well thought rules with the best from each edition (something that they should have done with Legions Imperialis but they didn't).

I would not be surprised if part of the High Elf lore is referencing how he is the true King and that the near future will proof this

Reading the article again, sleeping over it and now I just hope that the lore that is written in the books is better and not End Times level of writing to justify why certain things happen

and if the have not learned and reference the End Times ever so often in the new books as they do on the articles, this won't end up well

People don't like the EndTimes, not just because it blew up the world but also because of the bad writing that already started with 8th Edi army books, and a lot here were excited for TOW and the setting because they can ignore it.

I have the feeling the people there don't know why Warhammer Fantasy was liked in the first place and start building a world upon the stuff no one wants

Has it been established that you need ravenous hordes book on top of the tomb kings arcane journal, to play a tomb kings army? Same for the bretonians as well?(with the other book).

jube2763 wrote:
Has it been established that you need ravenous hordes book on top of the tomb kings arcane journal, to play a tomb kings army? Same for the bretonians as well?(with the other book).

if you do its something of an insult to peoples goodwill

I think so. The arcane journal is an appendix that contains special characters, magic items and alternative army compositions. It does not contain the core army list.

There was an image of the contents page floating around, I'll see if I can find it...

the Journal are the optional rules, you need the ravenous hordes book to play the army and the Journal if you want to use the "optional" army specific magic items

the grand army rules are not coming in the Journal as it is not a full army book

jube2763 wrote:
Has it been established that you need ravenous hordes book on top of the tomb kings arcane journal, to play a tomb kings army? Same for the bretonians as well?(with the other book).

Devotees of the Lady of the Lake can supplement the Grand Army list in Forces of Fantasy with Arcane Journal: Kingdom of Bretonnia.

This very much sounds like you need the big books and the arcane journals are just if you want more rules and specific themes.

 MalusCalibur wrote:


The rules follow 40k's model (multiple overpriced books rendered obsolete in short order).

Not so sure about this one. Looks more like the MESBG model. 1 big rule book. 2 army books for the vast majority of armies and units. Then additional supplements with extra rules regularly.

Like the "Armies of Lord of the Rings" and "Armies of the Hobbit" were released in 2018 and are still being used. They did update the 2018 core rule book in 2022 but you can still use the old book without much problem if you just have the old errata and FAQ pdfs on your phone.

Since this and mesbg are both specialist games and have some overlap in staff I wouldn't be surprised if it will be similar in how useful and how much value you get out of the books.

I won't buy any books for the Old World at release though since I want to wait and see for a while what model they will use long term. If it is more like 40k I won't buy a single book but it if it is like MESBG and I like the game I will most likely buy all that are relevant for my armies if not all books (part of a gaming club so I sometimes get books for others to use to make my favourite games more accessible so I get more players) like I have done for MESBG. Haven't bought a single 40k book for 3 editions now but I have almost all the released books for mesbg (not just this edition but since 2001)

 Matrindur wrote:

jube2763 wrote:
Has it been established that you need ravenous hordes book on top of the tomb kings arcane journal, to play a tomb kings army? Same for the bretonians as well?(with the other book).

Devotees of the Lady of the Lake can supplement the Grand Army list in Forces of Fantasy with Arcane Journal: Kingdom of Bretonnia.

This very much sounds like you need the big books and the arcane journals are just if you want more rules and specific themes.

This is my reading of it, we’ve seen the index for the Bret AJ as well and it seems it does just come with two variant lists, 3 special characters, some magic items and a couple of unique units for the variant lists like the bombard (plus lore obviously). So it seems you only really need it if you want to use those characters or variants.

It’s not even like you’ll be that short changed on magic items either, since there are apparently 56 common ones plus potentially more in the compendia (they contain magic items, but not clear if they just repeat the common ones or have army specific ones).

WarCom wrote:Each has profiles for every unit in the army, plus special rules for that faction, unique spells, magic items, and more

The only thing I do fear is Lore of Nehekhara being in the TK AJ, since Waaagh! Magic is in the Rulebook not RH but LoNehekhara is not.

Klickor wrote:

 MalusCalibur wrote:


The rules follow 40k's model (multiple overpriced books rendered obsolete in short order).

Not so sure about this one. Looks more like the MESBG model. 1 big rule book. 2 army books for the vast majority of armies and units. Then additional supplements with extra rules regularly.

Like the "Armies of Lord of the Rings" and "Armies of the Hobbit" were released in 2018 and are still being used. They did update the 2018 core rule book in 2022 but you can still use the old book without much problem if you just have the old errata and FAQ pdfs on your phone.

Since this and mesbg are both specialist games and have some overlap in staff I wouldn't be surprised if it will be similar in how useful and how much value you get out of the books.

I won't buy any books for the Old World at release though since I want to wait and see for a while what model they will use long term. If it is more like 40k I won't buy a single book but it if it is like MESBG and I like the game I will most likely buy all that are relevant for my armies if not all books (part of a gaming club so I sometimes get books for others to use to make my favourite games more accessible so I get more players) like I have done for MESBG. Haven't bought a single 40k book for 3 editions now but I have almost all the released books for mesbg (not just this edition but since 2001)

yes very MESBG like

Dead of Dunharrow for example needing:
- core rulebook, that everyone needs
- "Armies of Lord of the Rings" for the main army list
- "Gondor at War" for one single page that provides the character you need to make the king actually work

and at this point I've basically lost interest in TOW, I have the armies for it, but not interested in this method of play that requires this many books at that cost, essentially because I know its going to mean few others locally bother

Depends how glass half empty or full you want to be.

I have the armies of the lord of the rings books and that covers 7+ armies I have for Mesbg in one and I don't feel the need to buy anything else.

I may have misunderstood. So Ravening Hordes and the good army version are not just tie you over compendiums until you get a supplement? If so that has re-engaged my interest in picking up the books now. I had decided to wait and see how things develop.

MESBG is my 'main' game and the model works for me. Three core books, likely only needing two of those since Hobbit armies are not as numerous, and then additional supplements adding flavour to specific battles/stories etc.

The last few pages of this thread have been a good read with some interesting posts, thanks.

Something that concerns me about the new Lore Article (and i'm clearly not unique) is just how much of the discussion revolved around the End Times. Couldn't we just ignore it for the purposes of the article and big up what they've got. Also what i found very interesting is there is a line in there where one of the panellists openly criticises End Times, saying something to the effect (by my reading) of 'It could have been handled better', bit weird haha.

Also, again like some others, i don't really like that they take this opportunity to low-key prohibit the fielding of VC, Skaven, and other armies lore wise. Just like before couldn't they have just bigged up what they had and left hints that the other armies will be coming when they had something special ready for them? (even if they don't haha).

Finally something that irritated me is that on the one hand they clarified an obvious point; Don't count on your Special Characters showing up, which was good. On the other hand they plunged a more important point into total mystery, right before release, by stating that some Empire units, and by implication other armies' units, won't be (or worse might not be, like Flagellants) showing up, and waffling about how far along the tech tree the Old World is.

Lord Zarkov wrote:


The only thing I do fear is Lore of Nehekhara being in the TK AJ, since Waaagh! Magic is in the Rulebook not RH but LoNehekhara is not.

It says the following in the TK article:

Arcane Journal: Tomb Kings of Khemri provides the Nehekharan Royal Host and the Mortuary Cults

Replicant253 wrote:
I may have misunderstood. So Ravening Hordes and the good army version are not just tie you over compendiums until you get a supplement? If so that has re-engaged my interest in picking up the books now. I had decided to wait and see how things develop.

MESBG is my 'main' game and the model works for me. Three core books and then additional supplements adding flavour to specific battles/stories etc.

Correct, that’s what GW have said on WarComm - the complete* army is in the applicable compendium, the AJs are apparently just optional extras.

So e.g. if you play a mainstream Bret list you don’t need the AJ unless you want to field the Green Knight or the new Special Character Prophetess (or the exile guy, but he might be exiles list only).

*other than Special Characters it seems.

jube2763 wrote:
Has it been established that you need ravenous hordes book on top of the tomb kings arcane journal, to play a tomb kings army? Same for the bretonians as well?(with the other book).

Do you want special characters, spell lores, armies of infamy and magic items? Then you need arcane journal.

Just journal gets you very short. No core list, no core units...Good luck playing with just special characters

 Perkustin wrote:
Also, again like some others, i don't really like that they take this opportunity to low-key prohibit the fielding of VC, Skaven, and other armies lore wise. Just like before couldn't they have just bigged up what they had and left hints that the other armies will be coming when they had something special ready for them? (even if they don't haha).

I don't agree with chaos0xomega's view of "this is TOW's setting, if in 2055 we are on the 10th edition of TOW, GW are still never bringing VC/ Skaven/DE into it". GW don't plan that far ahead.
But I think its more honest to say - at least for this wave (so, 3-5 years?) - there's no VC/Skaven/DE etc.

Mainly because I remember the Bret players going "maybe this year?" for around a decade. I don't think it was good.

 Perkustin wrote:
The last few pages of this thread have been a good read with some interesting posts, thanks.

Something that concerns me about the new Lore Article (and i'm clearly not unique) is just how much of the discussion revolved around the End Times. Couldn't we just ignore it for the purposes of the article and big up what they've got. Also what i found very interesting is there is a line in there where one of the panellists openly criticises End Times, saying something to the effect (by my reading) of 'It could have been handled better', bit weird haha.

Also, again like some others, i don't really like that they take this opportunity to low-key prohibit the fielding of VC, Skaven, and other armies lore wise. Just like before couldn't they have just bigged up what they had and left hints that the other armies will be coming when they had something special ready for them? (even if they don't haha).

Finally something that irritated me is that on the one hand they clarified an obvious point; Don't count on your Special Characters showing up, which was good. On the other hand they plunged a more important point into total mystery, right before release, by stating that some Empire units, and by implication other armies' units, won't be (or worse might not be, like Flagellants) showing up, and waffling about how far along the tech tree the Old World is.

There are some stuff like the Colleges of Magic stuff that generally don’t make sense in the new timeframe, they seemed to be pretty clear though that the technological stuff should all be about though. I’m hoping the cryptic comment on flagellants means they’re in but like rare or even rare and restricted (like the Bret trebuchet).
Though I might be concerned about some of the units new in 8th that feature in AoS still like the iron drakes.

I’m hoping they play it like HH where there’s the main book then a ‘units of legend’ pdf (or ‘units of the future’ ) for those that don’t fit the timeframe.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:

jube2763 wrote:
Has it been established that you need ravenous hordes book on top of the tomb kings arcane journal, to play a tomb kings army? Same for the bretonians as well?(with the other book).

Do you want special characters, spell lores, armies of infamy and magic items? Then you need arcane journal.

Just journal gets you very short. No core list, no core units...Good luck playing with just special characters

There’s 56 common magic items apparently, and perhaps more in the compendia. So even there the AJ only gives you a small subset.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Matrindur wrote:

Lord Zarkov wrote:


The only thing I do fear is Lore of Nehekhara being in the TK AJ, since Waaagh! Magic is in the Rulebook not RH but LoNehekhara is not.

It says the following in the TK article:

Arcane Journal: Tomb Kings of Khemri provides the Nehekharan Royal Host and the Mortuary Cults

One of the earlier articles says the AJs come with spells. We’ll find out in a week I guess.

Replicant253 wrote:
I may have misunderstood. So Ravening Hordes and the good army version are not just tie you over compendiums until you get a supplement? If so that has re-engaged my interest in picking up the books now. I had decided to wait and see how things develop.

MESBG is my 'main' game and the model works for me. Three core books, likely only needing two of those since Hobbit armies are not as numerous, and then additional supplements adding flavour to specific battles/stories etc.

I don't think they've made a definitive statement about their model for The Old World, but my read on it is that they aren't going for a codex/cyclical redundancy model as they have for their main games and instead that the forces of fantasy/ravening hordes books are more of a one-and-done affair like the libers in Heresy. Instead we'll see a supplement for each faction which adds additional army structures, magic items and special characters but doesn't replace the main forces books.

Of course there are no guarantees they won't decide to redo the core lists in a few years time to add units or fix balance issues or switch to a different model, but the vibe I'm getting is more heresy than 40k and it makes sense they don't want to give the same level of "support" (or cyclical change for changes sake) for a specialist game as they do for their core games.

 MalusCalibur wrote:
The rules follow 40k's model (multiple overpriced books rendered obsolete in short order).

What proof is there of this?

 MalusCalibur wrote:
It's as obvious a minimum effort nostalgia cash-grab as one can get. Don't fall for it.

And like most cash grabs, it's taken literal years of work to get it to print.

Wait...

 Unknown_Lifeform wrote:

Replicant253 wrote:
I may have misunderstood. So Ravening Hordes and the good army version are not just tie you over compendiums until you get a supplement? If so that has re-engaged my interest in picking up the books now. I had decided to wait and see how things develop.

MESBG is my 'main' game and the model works for me. Three core books, likely only needing two of those since Hobbit armies are not as numerous, and then additional supplements adding flavour to specific battles/stories etc.

I don't think they've made a definitive statement about their model for The Old World, but my read on it is that they aren't going for a codex/cyclical redundancy model as they have for their main games and instead that the forces of fantasy/ravening hordes books are more of a one-and-done affair like the libers in Heresy. Instead we'll see a supplement for each faction which adds additional army structures, magic items and special characters but doesn't replace the main forces books.

Of course there are no guarantees they won't decide to redo the core lists in a few years time to add units or fix balance issues or switch to a different model, but the vibe I'm getting is more heresy than 40k and it makes sense they don't want to give the same level of "support" (or cyclical change for changes sake) for a specialist game as they do for their core games.

My assumption is once the first 9 AJs are out they’ll periodically release more AJs and/or campaign books with different slices of the story.

E.g. maybe they’ll cover the circumstances of the death of Louen / coronation of Jules le Just with a Royal Host variant and rules for one or both of them?

Or Something relating to the Affair of the False Grail seems a certainty given how they’ve bugged up Maldred on the map. (Though I note they’ve changed his heraldry- perhaps the classic black on yellow has been retconned to Merovech?)

tneva82 wrote:

jube2763 wrote:
Has it been established that you need ravenous hordes book on top of the tomb kings arcane journal, to play a tomb kings army? Same for the bretonians as well?(with the other book).

Do you want special characters, spell lores, armies of infamy and magic items? Then you need arcane journal.

Just journal gets you very short. No core list, no core units...Good luck playing with just special characters

Have you ever considered learning to post like a human being, tneva, rather than an AI who learned how to post on 4chan?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 MalusCalibur wrote:
The rules follow 40k's model (multiple overpriced books rendered obsolete in short order).

What proof is there of this?

I could see an argument for "overpriced", but given the game isn't even out yet, "rendered obsolete in short order" is lacking the faintest shred of evidence.

Mind you, we are on Dakka, where even the smallest touch of FAQ or errata is apparently enough to indicate a book is now completely useless...

If my understanding of how the books work is right, honestly that's more off-putting than the model prices for me.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 MalusCalibur wrote:
It's as obvious a minimum effort nostalgia cash-grab as one can get. Don't fall for it.

And like most cash grabs, it's taken literal years of work to get it to print.

Wait...

Cash grab with not many resources apportioned to it?

That said, I wouldn't call it low effort, I also wouldn't call it high effort But we'll see how polished the books turn out.

Are they really gonna be 250+ USD for meme-quality plastic models? Jeez.

 Overread wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:


But some factions look like nothing that would fit there - Ossiarch Bonereapers I can't ever have seen fitting ihe modern cities of sigmar range too much of a fantastical departure from the more gritty realism in the design stylings favored by human armies in the WHFB setting. Kruleboyz are a vast departure from old world orcs and goblins, lumineth are less grounded than whfb high elves are and would not have played well with existing HE collections, and Stormcast would only work as "good guy daemons"/aengels (TM) sent down from the heavens by Sigmar to protect his followers in times of need (ala fantasy magic space marines) which would have only ever really resulted in complaints from the grogs. I think we've seen enough feedback over the years from various fans to know that many of the designs for AoS would not have met with acceptance had they been released for WHFB. The feedback regarding a number of AoS ranges by WHFB purists (and even some AoS fans) has been pretty consistent that theres many things perceived as too over the top. There are some things which met with acceptance and adoption by WHFB fans (new chaos warriors, blood knights, etc.), but there are many things that did not as well (hell even Cities of Sigmar got a lot of hate from many who felt the design of the armor and weapons was too fantastical or whatever). You can also look at stuff like Kislev for TWW which had a lot of complaints that it was "AoS-ified" or "too over the top high fantasy for the gritty low fantasy WHFB setting" because it had too much ice magic and bears instead of sticking to normal dudes with normal weapons and armor and horses.

Old World did have this strange ability to be a low and high fantasy setting in the minds of fans at the very same time. Many of its depictions and gameplay models suggested really low fantasy - Game of Thrones early books style. With a few mages here and there but mostly grim dark peasants and monsters. At the same time the Lore had huge epic fantasy battles with vast powerful mages clashing; living siege engines; dragons; airships - and that's just the stuff Gotrek and Felix encountered.

AoS is very much firmly high/epic fantasy. But again GW could have done that with Old World after the "End Times" just shaking things up to a "New Times" or "After the Shattering" or something setting.
Again the whole move to AoS was a broken mess on multiple fronts. It's had some good results, but lets be honest that no sane company would have done what GW did at the time.

I think the whole 'low vs high' argument was always confused by what the TT game was portraying and what the RPG and other spin offs were protraying.

The tabletop game showed the biggest and most famous battles where all the most prominent characters and rarest creatures appeared, as the most popular product it mistakenly gave new entrants into the IP a view of Warhammer as a high fantasy IP. The majority of the Warhammer timeline is better portrayed in the RPG and the vast amount of actual battles are boring peasants/low level nobles vs raiding parties of orcs or beastmen, day to day life in the Empire and Bretonnia isn't much different to Medieval/early Renaissance Europe with some fantasy characters mixed in and the odd low level magic, the Everchosen are rare events, the Elves keep themselves to themselves, the Skaven rarely emerge from the under-empire en masse, most people in the Old World will have never seen a Lizardman and rumours of them are like Medieval/Early Modern rumours in the real world, there are high level magic users but they confine themselves to the major cities and amongst ruling political and military classes and aren't flinging around magic willy-nilly due to the inherent danger baked into Warhammer's magic system. All of that is low fantasy, punctuated by brief outbreaks of significant political or military upheaval that may display high fantasy elements. It is complicated by the fact that once you leave the Old World and go into the New World (High and Dark Elves, Lizardmen) the setting does become more high fantasy and there's a tension between those factions and the Old World factions in their portrayal and what the IP is trying to portray itself as, which runs through the IP due to the massive variance in magic usage and tech levels between the factions.

Lord Zarkov wrote:
I’m hoping the cryptic comment on flagellants means they’re in but like rare or even rare and restricted (like the Bret trebuchet).

Flagellants were already 0-1 Rare units - I can't imagine them getting any MORE rare without being removed entirely, which they probably have been since they're still in the Cities of Sigmar.

Replicant253 wrote:
I may have misunderstood. So Ravening Hordes and the good army version are not just tie you over compendiums until you get a supplement? If so that has re-engaged my interest in picking up the books now. I had decided to wait and see how things develop.

MESBG is my 'main' game and the model works for me. Three core books, likely only needing two of those since Hobbit armies are not as numerous, and then additional supplements adding flavour to specific battles/stories etc.

We will find out soon enough, and I don’t know if GW announced how many pages that Ravening Hordes/Forces of Fantasy are, but looking at the image they look to be a good couple of hundred pages. That means 40+ pages per army list. They’re also hardback. To me that indicates full lists rather than “get you by”.

For reference, the 6th edition Ravening hordes were get you by lists and they ran to no more than 4 pages per list. So an order of magnitude difference.

Plus we know what’s in the Bret Journal, and there isn’t anything foundational to the list in there at all.

The format looks similar to the Space Marines had with the old Codex supplements.

* You get the main army list in the big book (plus several other armies that you may or may not be allowed to take allies from - so relevant)
* You get a couple of characters, some variant army lists, units and magic stuff in the Arcane Journal

Seems fine to be but I mostly interested in the lore.

Whilst Setra is and was a complete tyrant - so were living Emperors and Kings in the lore and there are relatively benevolant Tomb kings - like the current ruler of Numas who has living and undead together in his kingdom. Now as long as nuances like this are referenced I am fine but I really not keen on blanket "good" and Evil".

Someone on reddit said their buddy found these