In your opinion....

If loyalist Primarchs ever return ( maybe one day when GW decide to move the fluff forward ) do you think that High Lords of Terra would gave the power villingly or would they resist them?

resist for sure. I believe many SM chapters and inquisitiorial sects would to. They wouldnt be very open to the idea that Primarchs are back. Primarchs would run the place much better and be able to handle the imperium a lot better than the High Lords though.

Wouldn't mind seeing Corax curbstomp some High Lords when they declare him a heretic or something.

I'm not sure they'd be able to resist them. The primarchs are the "sons" of the Emperor. If they went against them I'm sure the masses would overthrow the High Lords before the Primarchs would have to raise a finger.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Justicar Cliesthenes wrote:
resist for sure. I believe many SM chapters and inquisitiorial sects would to. They wouldnt be very open to the idea that Primarchs are back. Primarchs would run the place much better and be able to handle the imperium a lot better than the High Lords though.

why do you think the Space Marines would resist the return of the primarchs? Most chapters actually have a lot of fluff about waiting for them to return.

Depends on which Prmarchs.

Some could muster a lot more support than others. The IG would still likely be loyal to the High Lords, so I don't know if the Primarchs, could actually overthrow the High Lords.

They would resist for sure though, no question.

Well, except for the SM and Maybe Gks, no one knows of the Primarchs, so they would appear and claim to be son of the Emperor, and be shot for it, starting a war which the HLoT would win (They've got untold billions of Regiments of IG against one lone Primarch, what'd you think would happen) but then again, the SM's might believe him enough to stand by his side.
Who Knows?

Most wont believe that a primarch has returned. The Inquisition would be very interested in what most of them have been doing in the warp for that long (Corax, Russ and where ever Vulkan is). The factions of the Imperium are all very independent of each other to prevent rebellions. So making them all bow down to one man, who probably prefers his own legion, might be a bit difficult. Just look at the history of civil war because of these questions.

A primarch appearing now might be the worst possible moment. The Imperium is already having difficulties with the 13th Black Crusade (and if the fluff in the Chaos codex is right the final one). A civil war about a returned primarch might just be the final push to break the Imperium at this moment.

 Justicar Cliesthenes wrote:
Primarchs would run the place much better and be able to handle the imperium a lot better than the High Lords though.

That's highly debatable. Especially if you look at the latest series of Horus Heresy books (as opposed to the lore where they were merely legends before), they don't really look very competent.

The HLoT would resist and quite possibly win.

IG units greatly outnumber their SM counterparts. If the primarchs returned they would have to convince a LOT of different SM chapters to flock to their banner. If the primarchs then moved against Terra there would certainly be another civil war between them.

In the meantime, the HLoT have a pretty firm grip on the populace through the Ecclesiarchy. They could certainly declare the primarchs and any following chapters as traitors. This would mean the IG would rise up against them. Given that there is only about 1m marines in existence and untold billions of IG I'd say that the primarchs would have to move extremely quickly against Terra to try and take it.

Of course, we've seen this before with Horus. You'd be hard pressed to get all of the primarchs on board with taking over Terra. Even then, you'd be hard pressed to get the 1,000 odd SM chapters to follow them. Some would simply sit on the sideline and wait, others would join, but still others would oppose them.

And, finally, even if they were stupid enough to try, there is a galaxy full of aliens and certainly numerous planetary governors that would take full advantage of the resulting chaos...

The Primarchs, with the exception of Papa Smurf, have never been the political leaders of the Imperium. They therefore have no legal right whatsoever to claim any kind of political leadership within the Imperium.

 Melissia wrote:

 Justicar Cliesthenes wrote:
Primarchs would run the place much better and be able to handle the imperium a lot better than the High Lords though.

That's highly debatable. Especially if you look at the latest series of Horus Heresy books (as opposed to the lore where they were merely legends before), they don't really look very competent.

You are absolutely right, they don't look the part. A few might work out such as Guilliman, Dorn or Vulkan. However, Vulkan's disappearance doesn't bode well for his ability to truly govern. If he's going to turn tail and hide in the face of real danger then, well, I wouldn't want him trying to stand against the IoM's foes. Dorn was a bit too black and white. I'm not sure he has the wherewithal to understand that a lot of grey exists.

This leaves Guilliman. He set up his own empire which ran quite well. If anyone could take up the mantle to govern the Imperium, it would be him. Regardless, I wouldn't see the HLoT simply rolling over and allowing him to do that.

 KingDeath wrote:
The Primarchs, with the exception of Papa Smurf, have never been the political leaders of the Imperium. They therefore have no legal right whatsoever to claim any kind of political leadership within the Imperium.

Also id like to add that them doing so would be very stupid. Their experience is much better spend on active duty on a large crusade or around the Eye. Having him/them crunching numbers like most of the high lords are just basicly doing is a waste of skill/talent.

It depends on a number of factors.
Which Primarch it is coming back, and the circumstances of their return. There was a huge discussion on the Lion coming back a few weeks ago, here's what I had to say then.

I think it would make perfect sense for the loyalists at Cadia to rally around the Lion. This charismatic giant at the head of at least a full chapter of Astartes, even the stupidest soldier is going to put two and two together and realise that this is a legendary Primarch of old. All other SM's in the region would also figure it out pretty quickly and realise that this must be a good thing, for the time being anyway. Also add to the fact that Abaddon is at Cadia. He'll hear about the Lion before anyone on Terra, and when people then see that every Chaos attack is aimed at him, all claims as to who he really is will soon be clarified.

By the time the High Lords get news that the Lion has returned, he'll either be dead or he'll have too big a following to be denied a place within the Imperium, probably as the newest Warmaster, which he always wanted.

But, it'll never happen, we can hope all we want. Personally, I want Guilliman to stand up from his throne, but even though it's possible (Don't get me started on how, it's all to do with stasis just slowing time so that it appears to have stopped (look it up) giving him time to heal.) it won't happen either. We may aswell just ask for Horus to come back.

Primarchs could gather a following under the right circumstances, but if the High Lords got wind of their return before they had the masses behind them, it would end very badly.
And even if they DID get a following up, it would be pretty likely to end in a civil war.

And you were refuted piece by piece.

Seriously, it's fan-wankery, nothing more.

The Lion was incapable of such feats-- not that he didn't do them, he wasn't ABLE to do then, he wasn't skilled enough, charismatic enough, competent enough, to accomplish what you think he could accomplish-- during the Horus heresy when he was at his apex of power and influence, and when the Imperium was at its youngest, newly formed and most easily influenced by a charismatic person.

There's no reason to think that he would do any better against the legion of entrenched interests that is the modern Imperium, which has grown to mistrust charismatic leaders like the Lion simply as a point of policy.

 Sir Samuel Buca wrote:
It depends on a number of factors.
Which Primarch it is coming back, and the circumstances of their return. There was a huge discussion on the Lion coming back a few weeks ago, here's what I had to say then.

I think it would make perfect sense for the loyalists at Cadia to rally around the Lion. This charismatic giant at the head of at least a full chapter of Astartes, even the stupidest soldier is going to put two and two together and realise that this is a legendary Primarch of old. All other SM's in the region would also figure it out pretty quickly and realise that this must be a good thing, for the time being anyway. Also add to the fact that Abaddon is at Cadia. He'll hear about the Lion before anyone on Terra, and when people then see that every Chaos attack is aimed at him, all claims as to who he really is will soon be clarified.

By the time the High Lords get news that the Lion has returned, he'll either be dead or he'll have too big a following to be denied a place within the Imperium, probably as the newest Warmaster, which he always wanted.

But, it'll never happen, we can hope all we want. Personally, I want Guilliman to stand up from his throne, but even though it's possible (Don't get me started on how, it's all to do with stasis just slowing time so that it appears to have stopped (look it up) giving him time to heal.) it won't happen either. We may aswell just ask for Horus to come back.

Primarchs could gather a following under the right circumstances, but if the High Lords got wind of their return before they had the masses behind them, it would end very badly.
And even if they DID get a following up, it would be pretty likely to end in a civil war.

I smell a Nemesis in 40k coming up

They'd fight them tooth and claw.

Precious few Primarchs managed to carve out and rule small kingdoms for a short period of time, with only Smurfy Smurf really building a small interplanetary empire as such. Its hard to believe that many of them, if any at all, would be capable of administering the entire empire if they were to return. They were designed to win wars, not to govern humanity. Not to mention the fact that the HLoT would be incredibly unlikely to cede their vast power to anyone, Primarch or not.

^ my point also....But there are many people who think that Empy would give them IoM managment role after great crusade is over.....Well I do not....I think they were disposable after they played their role (basic concept of grimdark)...

0% chance.

If the primarchs return, it's going to be a repeat of the horus heresy where there are some primarchs vs. the government on Terra.

Things are a lot different than when they left.

 Melissia wrote:
There's no reason to think that he would do any better against the legion of entrenched interests that is the modern Imperium, which has grown to mistrust charismatic leaders like the Lion simply as a point of policy.

The Lion is not a charismatic leader, he is an unfeeling sociopath.

Anyway, of the loyalist Primarchs...

Leman Russ might not even try to seize power, despite his Legion's reputation for being wild and anti-authority. He was, for better or worse, the Emperor's loyal lap dog, who did his master's bidding without question. The Emperor wanted humanity to run itself, and I think Russ would be content simply rejoining his Legion in crusades against the Imperium's enemies.

Lion El'Jonson on the other hand would undoubtedly seek to grab power, though he'd do so covertly, I think, not openly. It is hard to say how successful he might be.

The Khan is too wild, from what little I know of him, to successfully seize power.

Dorn is too much of a latently psychotic cornball to effectively do anything. Also he's almost certainly dead.

Sanguinius... Now he could do it. He had a measure of all that made the Emperor great, with none of what made him a fuckface. He is charismatic enough, intelligent enough, could instigate a psychic push here and there if need be, I can't see the Imperium rising up against a returned Sanguinius. Only he's like, super friggin' dead. Or not, who knows, with the Sanguinor?

Ferrus Manus is a soldier, and knows it. Like Russ, he'd be wholly content merely stomping out the foes of the Emperor. Also he's dead.

Guilliman... Now he could do it. He is a supremely skilled governor and manager of resources, well-versed in just about everything you need to gain power and run an empire, and above all, is a highly regarded figure in the Imperium, far more than the High Lords are. A military campaign against him would be futile.

Vulkan? feth if I know, who the hell knows anything about that dude's actual personality?

Corvus Corax... Lol, look at that emo, self-indulgent melon-fether, someone get this whiny girlyman a tissue. But keep him the feth away from the handlebars of the Imperium, please.

Russ never wanted a seat of power, he has his 13th company of werewolves, and roams butt naked trough warp (to even the odds with Khorne), hunting chaos scum ...Paradise for him....
Corax - to depressed to do anything (like me:-)
Khan..to wild, to furious...
Guiliy - ? Maybe...after Heresy he became empy nb 2....
Sanginius - dead and a mutant (just don't mention that ghost crap)
Ferrus lacks the head for the job
Dorn lacks some body parts (torso, head, arms)
Vulkan - he would fight for the common man and a working class :-) big thorne in HloT finger




Lion - This is the biggest enigma...Wants power, lacks the charisma...Damn I wish to see him rise....

All of it? No. Would they give him/them a place on the council? Yes. If multiple Primarchs, then the most able among them.

Lion would not be a good enemy for the High Lords. Considering the secrecy veiling the I Legion and it's operations, the High Lords probably wouldn't be aware of his return until the point where they have no choice but to give him a place on the council. Like a Black Crusade tearing through the Cadian Gate, all the way through the Segmentum Obscurus and Solar to knock on the gates of Titan, Mars, and Terra itself. Only for the tide to turn when Lion and his legion smash into the Chaos lines from the rear, taking command of the disarrayed and scattered Imperial forces around Segmentum Obscurus and Solar and grinding Abaddon and his armies to paste before the Imperial throne world. He'd be hailed a hero across the Imperial heartland, and the High Lords would have no choice but to recognize him and give him what he always wanted: the rank and title of Warmaster. Or would they be so stupid as to risk another Plague of Unbelief, this time across the Imperial heartland itself? They're politicians, not morons. They'd realize that some handles over a Primarch are better than none, with the Warmaster technically under the Council of Terra and all.

Remember that Malcador the Sigilite was very well-regarded by the Emperor, and is the founder of His Ordos of the Holy Inquisition. Returning Loyalists Primarchs know full well the power and authority vested in that august body. They also know full well that they have neither the right nor the authority to change the way the Inquisition operates, for that was mandated by the Emperor, Himself, through Malcador.

 Psienesis wrote:
Remember that Malcador the Sigilite was very well-regarded by the Emperor, and is the founder of His Ordos of the Holy Inquisition. Returning Loyalists Primarchs know full well the power and authority vested in that august body. They also know full well that they have neither the right nor the authority to change the way the Inquisition operates, for that was mandated by the Emperor, Himself, through Malcador.

The Inquisition is untouchable. The Ecclesiarchy...not so much. Corax or Lion would probably find a way to make it self-destruct from the inside out, all the while looking like they weren't involved at all.

Ailaros wrote:Things are a lot different than when they left.

Hmmh. Are they really?

The surviving Primarchs already ceded power to the Senatorum after the Emperor died. It's not like Emps fell over and suddenly everybody disappeared. Guilliman was a High Lord himself for some time before he kinda got himself injured in some huge battle to have his body end up where it sits now.
The High Lords managed to assert their dominance back then, and they have even more power now. The Primarchs are quite killable, and the Imperium has more troops, more tanks, more ships, and more influence over the people.

Ultimately, I'm sure that any surviving Primarch would be capable of causing some havoc (provided he manages to convince at least some of who he claims to be), but - not counting writer fiat - has little chance to actually achieve anything without the consent of the High Lords. And I would think that most of them are smarter than just throwing a fit out of wounded pride, threatening all the Emperor has achieved by making the Imperium more vulnerable to attacks from the outside.

Admiral Valerian wrote:The Ecclesiarchy...not so much. Corax or Lion would probably find a way to make it self-destruct from the inside out, all the while looking like they weren't involved at all.

How's that supposed to work?

 Void__Dragon wrote:
The Lion is not a charismatic leader, he is an unfeeling sociopath.

Unfortunately, the two aren't mutually exclusive.

That said, he's not competent enough for the job, even if he might think he is.

 Melissia wrote:
And you were refuted piece by piece.

Seriously, it's fan-wankery, nothing more.

The Lion was incapable of such feats-- not that he didn't do them, he wasn't ABLE to do then, he wasn't skilled enough, charismatic enough, competent enough, to accomplish what you think he could accomplish-- during the Horus heresy when he was at his apex of power and influence, and when the Imperium was at its youngest, newly formed and most easily influenced by a charismatic person.

There's no reason to think that he would do any better against the legion of entrenched interests that is the modern Imperium, which has grown to mistrust charismatic leaders like the Lion simply as a point of policy.

And a few people agreed. Even being adamant that a Primarch couldn't gain power is fan-wankery, just from another point of view.
I don't think most Primarchs should be put in charge of the Imperium, it would end badly. But under the right circumstances, they could gain this position of power and gather enough followng to challenge the High Lords, you refuse to believe that these born leaders could lead a group of the men they were designed to have unwavering loyalty from.

The point is, I don't think a Primarch returning gives them any right to rule, and the High Lords wouldn't willingly hand it over, but the Primarchs could not be denied a place within the Imperium.

 Sir Samuel Buca wrote:
But under the right circumstances, they could gain this position of power and gather enough followng to challenge the High Lords, you refuse to believe that these born leaders could lead a group of the men they were designed to have unwavering loyalty from.

I have no problem seeing them getting Astartes loyalty-- at least a portion of them.

But that's irrelevant to the question at hand. Astartes have very little military strength and even less political strength.

LITTLE MILITARY/POLITICAL IMPORTANCE?
Calgar alone can summon thirty regs of IG,at least 100 successor chapters (more according to fluff) and god knows how many tanks.
And he is one of the most important people in the imperium, with political power equal to a HLoT.

ScarletPheonix wrote:
LITTLE MILITARY/POLITICAL IMPORTANCE?
Calgar alone can summon thirty regs of IG,at least 100 successor chapters (more according to fluff) and god knows how many tanks.
And he is one of the most important people in the imperium, with political power equal to a HLoT.

Aside from the fact that Calgar is the exception and not the rule, Calgar is unlikely to support the Lion ruling the Imperium. At best, he would likely remain neutral. The Lion is not his primarch and he would have no reason to risk his empire and all of his successor chapters to support someone like the Lion.

Furthermore, lol, only 30 regiments? Merely thirty? Please, hive worlds send more men than that to the Imperial Guard every year just to pay their tithes. Many, many times more Imperial Guard are recruited every year than it would take to wipe out the entirety of the forces that Calgar commands, and indeed, the entirety of the Astartes as a whole.

Thirty regiments wouldn't likely even add up to a hundred thousand men. Hive Worlds tithe millions, if not billions, every year. The war-torn world known as Tranch, by itself, eats up a quarter million to a million soldiers every year (what with it basically being World War I: The Planet). And it's just a side show in a relatively unimportant subsector in the Segmenta Obscuris. The Imperium is vast. The Astartes are tiny even by modern standards.

ScarletPheonix wrote:
LITTLE MILITARY/POLITICAL IMPORTANCE?
Calgar alone can summon thirty regs of IG,at least 100 successor chapters (more according to fluff) and god knows how many tanks.
And he is one of the most important people in the imperium, with political power equal to a HLoT.

Calgar can "summon" noone except his Ultramarines and whatever assets he commands as the Lord of Ultramar. The Legions have been sundered and each chapter is proudly independent and certainly not willing to blindly follow someone expect it's own chaptermaster. This does not preclude the existance of alliances between chapters or mutual aid in times of need, but it certainly precludes any inter- chapter hierarchies.

The possible return of Primarchs is far off in the last days. The days when all thats left is to fight.
So politics is irrelevant then. You don't need to think about another heresy then.
just hand over to those created to lead in war-times. Its without doubt the Primarchs who were made for this.
Not only marines but the combined might of the Imperium.

So final battle = Primarchs back = HLoT hiding beneath their desks. Who is gonna follow the ones who "tactically retreated" ?


------------------------------------------------------

The HLoT aren't untouchable. Because there were times without a council or a pretty depleted one.
What is the real cornerstone, the thing the Imperium is standing on and cannot afford to lose if it shall stand?
The Emperor.

At his order, everyone could be in charge.

----------------------------------------------------


HLoT are replacable.

Primarchs are a given set of 18/9.
Who isn't making it, the named Primarch or the unnamed HLoT?

The named primarchs aren't going to make it because they'd disrupt the status quo, and as we know, status quo is god.

The status quo of the Imperium is viciously maintained by the High Lords, Inquisition, and so on. You have the Inquisition going around hunting sensei and guys they suspect could be reincarnated as the Emperor because they don't want the potential chaos caused by his return. It's not malicious, they're not saying "I hate the Emperor and Primarchs!", but they don't want to give up their power and would view them as not understanding the new politics of M41.

The Primarchs would probably rally all the Astartes around them and you'd be facing a new civil war.

Not even all of the Astartes. The Grey Knights would likely be more loyal to the Inquisition, which would oppose having their power taken away (and you-- and they-- know the Lion and many other primarchs would try to do so). Many newer Astartes chapters are more loyal to the Imperium than the primarchs of old, as well.

1hadhq wrote:HLoT are replacable.

This is 40k. Everyone is replacable.
The history of the Imperium has shown as much. Including the Primarch's rather long absence.

Melissia wrote:The named primarchs aren't going to make it because they'd disrupt the status quo, and as we know, status quo is god.

The story to return the Primarchs is a godslayer then...


But yes, the Primarchs belong into the "king under the mountain" category of figures.

I would still maintain the point, that a story written about a confrontation will favor the wellknown and named characters.
Since these High Lords are faceless they are easy to swap.

Lynata wrote:

1hadhq wrote:HLoT are replacable.

This is 40k. Everyone is replacable.

Big E too?



PS:
The Primarchs are a factor of the FW-HH-line right now. I think they will stay in M30 for a while.
The flaw of the OP is, there is no reason for a return of a Primarch.

The Emperor, the person, was replaced by "The Emperor", the concept.

I could see the fluff being:

"How are we to know they are not corrupted? Where have they been all this time? Lysander had to prove himself; do the Primarchs think they are above the law? We think a nice long quest or campaign against the God Emperor's enemies are just the thing to prove them out. Say for a couple hundred years until we can have an ummm... "suitable" reception for their return."

That sounds about right for the 40k way of thinking.

1hadhq wrote:Big E too?

As a political power, most certainly.
In the past 10.000 years, he was nothing but a glorified lighthouse. And that's assuming the fluff actually told us the truth here and the Astronomican isn't already run by a machine. The psyker sacrifice sounds a bit suspicious if the Emperor once was capable to do all that by his own power. (ooooh conspiracy theories! )

The Emperor was once not a corpse on a chair, lol.

That's what I mean - to what extent is he even "necessary" for the Astronomican to burn, if all that psychic energy comes from the sacrifices?

Now, I continue to regard him acting like a sort of focus, required to merge the psychic energy of a thousand individuals into a single coherent flame. It's what the material suggests, some sources (even from GW) in a fairly unambiguous manner ...

... but at the same time, the thought of it all just being a big lie is deliciously grimdark.

The Emperor has never created the Astronomicon, his will is needed to direct it across the galaxy.

It could be a lie, but no source even implies it, that doesn't come from Chaos.

 Lynata wrote:

1hadhq wrote:Big E too?

As a political power, most certainly.
In the past 10.000 years, he was nothing but a glorified lighthouse. And that's assuming the fluff actually told us the truth here and the Astronomican isn't already run by a machine. The psyker sacrifice sounds a bit suspicious if the Emperor once was capable to do all that by his own power. (ooooh conspiracy theories! )

Seems I am still confused by that avatar of yours. So how is it, leaving the light of the Emperor and joining the dark side?
Because, this lighthouse theory....... sounds heretical.

Youre quick to discredit the Emperor.
The political power depends on him. He is the neccessary figurehead. And the one to really have any achievement listened in GW publications.
The High lords. May sit on a high horse. But the horse belongs to the Emperor. And the horse knows it.
How could a character of importance be so unknown as a high lord? Do we know any names of them? Didn't a officio assassinate them all once?
Without any effect on the IoM ...
Now, take Big E off of his golden toilet.

That horse thing should be taken literally.

The Emperor's horse, as seen in Mechanicum, is the most powerful being in 40k canon.

I have my favourite faction(s) in the Imperium, but that doesn't mean I cannot be a fan of the franchise as a whole and appreciate different aspects. I also like the Tau, and I am intrigued by the idea of some day maybe playing a Chaos character in Black Crusade some time.

Yes, political power depends on the Emperor - but only on his public image, not the actual person. As you mentioned, he is the figurehead. A shriveled marionette for the High Lords to point at and say "He said He'd be okay with our orders!"
Look at the little empire the Apostate Cardinal Bucharis' had carved out during the latter days of the Age of Apostasy. The guy basically proclaimed Terra as fallen (in spite of his segmentum just having become isolated by warp storms) and said he'd take over for Vandire. During his best days, he had almost an entire segmentum under his rule.

In M41, the Emperor is to people like how the Christian god was to the populace of medieval Europe. Kings and Popes would use his name as justification to do whatever they wanted, and so do the High Lords and Imperial Commanders in 40k.

I also doubt that the assassination you are referring to did not have "any effect on the IoM"; we just don't know much about the incident. And if I remember correctly, the guy who arranged it was a High Lord himself - who obviously didn't kill himself but just wanted to take over, similar to Vandire.

 Lynata wrote:

Admiral Valerian wrote:The Ecclesiarchy...not so much. Corax or Lion would probably find a way to make it self-destruct from the inside out, all the while looking like they weren't involved at all.

How's that supposed to work?

They get too troublesome/noisy, steps will be taken. I doubt the Inquisition doesn't do that, even now.

And the Emperor is not replaceable. Who will project the Astronomican? Who will soul-bind Astropaths? Who will keep the Warp portal behind the Golden Throne closed? There's even a chance if he actually dies and does not resurrect/reincarnate/transcend, the psychic prison of the Void Dragon will collapse and release the greatest and most feared of the Star Gods. In that case, see ya. I'm off to the Eye of Terror.

Admiral Valerian wrote:They get too troublesome/noisy, steps will be taken. I doubt the Inquisition doesn't do that, even now.

Yeah, but the Inquisition has its methods, specially trained operatives, contacts, leverage, political influence. How is some random Astartes Chapter supposed to achieve the same? We're talking about semi-eremite superhumans whose only contact with the wider Imperium consists of sometimes answering incoming distress calls and occasionally showing up on the battlefield to punch holes into an enemy's defenses.

Admiral Valerian wrote:And the Emperor is not replaceable. Who will project the Astronomican? Who will soul-bind Astropaths? Who will keep the Warp portal behind the Golden Throne closed? There's even a chance if he actually dies and does not resurrect/reincarnate/transcend, the psychic prison of the Void Dragon will collapse and release the greatest and most feared of the Star Gods. In that case, see ya. I'm off to the Eye of Terror.

Much of this depends on how the Golden Throne actually works, or how it could be adapted to be used by other, less powerful yet still sufficient psykers. Or, in the worst case scenario, how the Imperium could recuperate from losing its access to the warp. Would it be possible that necessity drives the Mechanicus to re-engineer Tau FTL drives?

As for the Soulbinding - that's a good question as well. Did Bucharis have any plans for this, or was he planning on more conventional means of transporting messages?

 1hadhq wrote:

Big E too?

Little known fact: we are currently at Emperor number 971. The original Emperor perished at the late 32nd millennium. He has been replaced since 970 times by the most powerful psyker the Inquisition can find. Some last only months, most few years, until the energies flowing through them have withered their bodies into empty dried husks. Ones that are truly gifted can last even decades. Emperor #130 was exceptional, lasting over a century. The corpse of the original Emperor was chopped into tiny bits and disposed with all the other waste from the Imperial Palace. His successors share the same fate.

I just can not imagine the High Lords refusing a Primarch. Im not going to debate this thread though. Just my opinion here

 Galdos wrote:
I just can not imagine the High Lords refusing a Primarch.

Why not? The primarchs are long-dead failures, nothing more.

A BIG FAT
NO........ You need to lose weight no.

They would never give it up. Not until each every single one of them is killed.

Honestly, the only Primarch with political experience was Guilliman and even then he was.....okay at best....in the odd chance that the IoM actually rallies behind the Primarchs and believes them, they would serve 1000x better as military leaders than political leaders. They were designed by the Emperor to fight and win wars, and nothing more. After all the crusading was done, they were supposed to be retired along with the Space Marines so the Imperial Army could take control of the defense of worlds. Unfortunately, the whole Heresy thing kinda prevented the plan from happening fully so the Space Marines were never retired.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
In that case, see ya. I'm off to the Eye of Terror.

That would be my plan honestly. In that case, at least the Chaos Gods offer semi-fair (not really) treatment if I work hard enough to please them. Also, I have a feeling once a pissed off Star God comes back the Eye of Terror would be the safest place

Anyone who has power is often quite willing to give it up.

And how long would it take them to "verify" the Primarch(s)?

Unless the Primarchs take power from them, the High Lords won't give it up.

One of the last things that the Emperor did before the heresy was to disband the War Council and transfer power from the Primarchs to unmodified humans. This is one of the big reasons for the Heresy. This is how the Traitor Legions believe the Emperor betrayed them. The Primarchs were made into servants of lesser beings while the Emperor went under the palace to work on his science projects. After the Heresy it wasn't much different, with the exception of the Arch Heretic Guilliman who usurped power for himself and set himself up as Emperor until his ego got the better of him and he decided to challenge Fulgrim in hand-to-hand combat, a foe he couldn't have beaten even before he had turned into a Daemon Primarch.

If any of the other loyalist Primarchs came back, I doubt the High Lords would see any reason to change the way things are. But if Guilliman came back he'd probably use all of the Ultramarines and their progeny to overthrow them and set himself up as the master of mankind.

If Guilliman came back he wouldn't very likely be able to.

 Lynata wrote:

1hadhq wrote:HLoT are replacable.

This is 40k. Everyone is replacable.
The history of the Imperium has shown as much. Including the Primarch's rather long absence.

This is the most important part...Anyone who thinks that some person (below the emperor) isn't ; doesn't know the concept of the grimdark, and shoud go play d&d...


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 Melissia wrote:
If Guilliman came back he wouldn't very likely be able to.

Thing is he doesn't need to...Imperium divided or a civil war would be the end of mankind as we know of...

 Lynata wrote:

Admiral Valerian wrote:They get too troublesome/noisy, steps will be taken. I doubt the Inquisition doesn't do that, even now.

Yeah, but the Inquisition has its methods, specially trained operatives, contacts, leverage, political influence. How is some random Astartes Chapter supposed to achieve the same? We're talking about semi-eremite superhumans whose only contact with the wider Imperium consists of sometimes answering incoming distress calls and occasionally showing up on the battlefield to punch holes into an enemy's defenses.

Corax and Lion are extremely good conspirators. I wouldn't consider them incapable of doing so, or nudging the Inquisition in the direction of the troublemakers. Even if they don't rule the Imperium, and simply command it's armies, they still have a lot of influence.

Admiral Valerian wrote:And the Emperor is not replaceable. Who will project the Astronomican? Who will soul-bind Astropaths? Who will keep the Warp portal behind the Golden Throne closed? There's even a chance if he actually dies and does not resurrect/reincarnate/transcend, the psychic prison of the Void Dragon will collapse and release the greatest and most feared of the Star Gods. In that case, see ya. I'm off to the Eye of Terror.

Much of this depends on how the Golden Throne actually works, or how it could be adapted to be used by other, less powerful yet still sufficient psykers. Or, in the worst case scenario, how the Imperium could recuperate from losing its access to the warp. Would it be possible that necessity drives the Mechanicus to re-engineer Tau FTL drives?

The Imperium can execute short jumps (still faster than Tau 'bounces') even without the Astronomican. I reckon pocket empires ala Old Night would rise within a few decades, centered around former Fortress Worlds, Astartes realms, Forge Worlds, and the like.

As for the Soulbinding - that's a good question as well. Did Bucharis have any plans for this, or was he planning on more conventional means of transporting messages?

Epistolaries are capable of astro-telepathy, but they're Astartes. The gene-seed probably amplifies their abilities (the Primarchs were all psykers to some degree). Otherwise, yeah, FTL communications will probably be done by courier ship.

 washout77 wrote:


That would be my plan honestly. In that case, at least the Chaos Gods offer semi-fair (not really) treatment if I work hard enough to please them. Also, I have a feeling once a pissed off Star God comes back the Eye of Terror would be the safest place

That's the idea. If the Void Dragon got out...there's no psyker in the galaxy strong enough to confront it directly, especially not after it consumes everyone on Mars before heading to Terra.

Admiral Valerian wrote:Corax and Lion are extremely good conspirators. I wouldn't consider them incapable of doing so, or nudging the Inquisition in the direction of the troublemakers. Even if they don't rule the Imperium, and simply command it's armies, they still have a lot of influence.

But still ... how?

What is it that makes them good conspirators? The network of contacts they do not have anymore? Access to or knowledge of information to blackmail people who are long dead? Influence doesn't just come flying into people's laps - it either has to be earned, or taken, or inherited. A returning Primarch would have neither unless the High Lords or the Inquisition want it. (I could see potential for "backroom deals" between certain powerful individuals/organisations and a Primarch, but it still takes two to agree to those)
It'd be as if you would be sent to infiltrate the US or the Soviet Union during the Cold War, without any inside knowledge or knowing locals who could help you. Oh, and you'd be 7 feet tall and would probably attract some attention amidst normal people... See what I mean now?

The whole thing could change, given just enough time, mind you. With enough years passing, those conspirators of yours might manage to make friends of their own, gain new contacts, and use the resources and manpower from their Chapter fiefs to build an entirely new network, maybe even plant spies on other worlds or possibly infiltrate other Imperial Adepta. But this is not something that could be achieved on a short term, especially as the Inquisition would likely monitor them, and has many, many covert operatives of its own. And just a single misstep of this fledgling conspiracy could uncover the whole plan.

It's just the reality of the Marine Chapters generally not having been very close to the Imperium in the recent millennia. Coincidentally, the few who are close would probably also be the ones least likely to agree to a conspiracy against the friends they managed to make. Honour, duty, etc pp...

This assumes Lion or some other Primarch turned the tide of a Black Crusade that actually reached the Imperial throne world, and became Warmaster. By this point, he can not only command the Imperium's commanders, but has Commissars, Inquisitors, and so on by his side supposedly for advice, but also to keep an eye on him. See what I mean? Those same advisers/Terran overseers can also be asked for assistance with regards to people who get in the way of the war effort.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
This assumes Lion or some other Primarch turned the tide of a Black Crusade that actually reached the Imperial throne world, and became Warmaster. By this point, he can not only command the Imperium's commanders, but has Commissars, Inquisitors, and so on by his side supposedly for advice, but also to keep an eye on him. See what I mean? Those same advisers/Terran overseers can also be asked for assistance with regards to people who get in the way of the war effort.

The title of Warmaster is bestowed by the Highlords of Terra for a specific crusade and is still second in rank to the Lord Commander Militant.

I have no specific opinion on the matter, but I think you have different scenarios :

Roboute wakes up in his chapel, under the eyes of thousand of pilgrims and an UM detachement. Everyone can witness his return to life.

A strange dark guy turns up somewhere, goes to a bar, jump on a table and shouts"I'm Corax! Yes, yes I am!!!"

The first is likely to be included quickly in the political circuit (with the usual cloak and dagger stuff attached). The other one is likely to be shot by the first detachement of SM or IG comming by, just for being a strange and crazy lunatic.

Admiral Valerian wrote:This assumes Lion or some other Primarch turned the tide of a Black Crusade that actually reached the Imperial throne world, and became Warmaster. By this point, he can not only command the Imperium's commanders, but has Commissars, Inquisitors, and so on by his side supposedly for advice, but also to keep an eye on him. See what I mean? Those same advisers/Terran overseers can also be asked for assistance with regards to people who get in the way of the war effort.

That war effort, yes. But aside from what KingDeath mentioned, becoming Warmaster also does not mean that everyone in your army suddenly forsakes all their existing allegiances and becomes loyal only to you, especially amongst the types of characters you listed. Telling them to do you certain weird favours with the intention of furthering your own goals for someday challenging the High Lords will only evoke attention - and as you mentioned, such a character would be under a lot of scrutiny. The Imperium is kind of wary of people commanding such power ever since Horus abused it, only bestowing this title temporarily when absolutely needed. And whilst I can certainly imagine a returning Primarch - hypothetically - being granted this level of authority for the purpose of leading a campaign, it'd come with a lot of strings attached.

 Lynata wrote:
But aside from what KingDeath mentioned, becoming Warmaster also does not mean that everyone in your army suddenly forsakes all their existing allegiances and becomes loyal only to you

Yeah, that wasn't even true during the Horus Heresy, and people were far less intelligent and more easily fooled in that era.

 Melissia wrote:
...far less intelligent and more easily fooled in that era.

More easily fooled, yes. But only because no one expected anyone would betray the dream of unity. Less intelligent? No. Back then people were actually encouraged to think instead of mindlessly ranting "BELIEVE! BELIEVE! BELIEVE!"

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Back then people were actually encouraged to think

And then promptly ignored that encouragement nine times out of ten.

Based on?

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Based on?

The blind loyalty most marines gave to their primarchs is a shining example of the refusal to think for oneself in the Horus Heresy era.

 Melissia wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Back then people were actually encouraged to think

And then promptly ignored that encouragement nine times out of ten.

Oh really?

EDIT: The Imperium advanced more in the two centuries of the Great Crusade than in the ten thousand years and more since.

 Melissia wrote:
The blind loyalty most marines gave to their primarchs is a shining example of the refusal to think for oneself in the Horus Heresy era.

The Primarchs inspire awe and sway people to their sides not just due to charisma, but by virtue of the immense psychic power they radiate (Like a smaller version of what the Emperor does). Beyond that, Marines are genetically built for loyalty towards their Primarch.

What of the people that rebelled that were not Space Marines?

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Back then people were actually encouraged to think

And then promptly ignored that encouragement nine times out of ten.

Oh really?

EDIT: The Imperium advanced more in the two centuries of the Great Crusade than in the ten thousand years and more since.

You could kinda say the same thing for Rome vs the Dark Ages, though when all your smart people get rubbed, and everything they wrote gets burned, it only leaves the insipid behind.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Back then people were actually encouraged to think

And then promptly ignored that encouragement nine times out of ten.

Oh really?

EDIT: The Imperium advanced more in the two centuries of the Great Crusade than in the ten thousand years and more since.

The Imperium also faced far fewer and far lesser threats during those two centuries as well.

Dorn would be alright, i don't really care for ole' Mufasa, bit of an emo. Corax is too quiet. Russ pretty much only wants to smash things and listen to Amon Amarth. Papa Smurf, as he were, is one of the few diplomats among them. Despite the general hatred of the Ultramarines in the community they are admittedly the most organized and reliable of the chapters. Maybe if they all chipped in a kidney each the Emperor would get better? then he could go into the Eye, headbutt Khorne, tip antibiotics on Nurgle, choke big bird with his own rubic's cube and smack slannesh's bum for being a very naughty goat boy.

 Melissia wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Back then people were actually encouraged to think

And then promptly ignored that encouragement nine times out of ten.

Oh really?

EDIT: The Imperium advanced more in the two centuries of the Great Crusade than in the ten thousand years and more since.

The Imperium also faced far fewer and far lesser threats during those two centuries as well.

Oh really? As I recall, the Ghazghkull's Waaagh! was the worst since Ulaanor. The fact that Horus and Co. completely crushed that Waaagh! rather than simply driving them off means that the 30k Imperium IS stronger than it's 40k iteration.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Oh really? As I recall, the Ghazghkull's Waaagh! was the worst since Ulaanor. The fact that Horus and Co. completely crushed that Waaagh! rather than simply driving them off means that the 30k Imperium IS stronger than it's 40k iteration.

They didn't face the Tyranids or Necrons, even Urrlak Urruk's Waaagh was nothing more than a throwaway compared to the utter badassery and skill of Ghazghkull. Ghazghkull had actual intelligence, strategy, and thought, and wasn't merely just a big dumb brute like Urrlak Urruk. The sheer NUMBER of threats that the modern Imperium faces is far larger than the great crusade faced. The Tau were created as nothing more than an example oef the various small alien empires that the Imperium faces in 40k.

I seriously doubt that even if the Primarchs returned they would be interested in doing much more than fighting the traitor legions anyhow.

Lion El'Jonson has half a legion to hunt down, Leman Russ, Corvus Corax, Vulkan, and Jaghatai Khan all were far more interested in war than in politics. Of all the Loyalists Only Roboute Guilliman had any political ability. Even then, he doesn't really seem like the type to rock the boat. Would they appreciate the decline of the Imperium? Not likely, but the enemies of Man kind are many, and they really really like killing them

 Melissia wrote:
They didn't face the Tyranids or Necrons, even Ulaanor's Waaagh was nothing more than a throwaway compared to the utter badassery and skill of Ghazghkull. The sheer NUMBER of threats that the modern Imperium faces is far larger than the great crusade faced.

True to that, but I will note just one WAAAGH!!! that was bigger then any other wagh - even Gazzy's one.

Battle of Gyros-Thravian led by Warboss Gharkul Blackfang, I don't know the size of his WARGH!!! but it'w warmachine was able to tie down THREE ENTIRE SPACE MARINE LEGIONS ( the Imperial Fists, Luna Wolves, and Death Guard ) WITH THEIR PRIMARCHS AND HE WAS EVEN CLOSE IN DEFEATING THEM. He was only defeated when Emperor arrived with 1,000 Custodes and did a job that 3 of his Astartes Legions with their Primarchs couldn't. This tells you something about Custodes, especially when the lose just 3 of them and slayed literally over 100.000 Orks...

Gazzy's WARGH was the biggest one that modern Imperium faced so far and it was brought to a stand still, the 3'rd war count as Imeprial voctory as the Imperal Gaurd has no problem in pacyfyign waht remained of Gazy's force. That was the biggest one modern Imperium faced so far, now imagine a WARGH that was powerful enough to almost defeat 3 entire Legions. The note say that the battle happened near the end of the great Crusade, when 3 Legions numbered around 365.000 Astartes ( Sons of Horus - Between 130,000 and 170,000, Imperial Fists - 100,000, Death Guard - 95,000 ) and + their Primarchs were in battle with them - and he was almost near defeating them until the Emperor showed with 1000 Custodes and literally destroyed the Orks. No Ork threat in modern Imeprium history ( after HH ) was big as this one, even Tyranid 1'st and 2'nd war fail in comparison to this.

TYPING IN ALL CAPS MAKES MY ARGUMENT BETTER!

Could be that my information is just out of date, but I don't recall the Administration of Terra, or the rest of the empire, being the domain of the Primarchs in the first place.

The Emperor created them to crusade against his enemies. They were all soldiers not politicians. They were never intended to rule. Before the siege of Terra, when the Emperor started making preparations for what he knew was going to happen, he ordered the creation of the Inquisition to (and all it's branches and offices) to watch over his empire internally. He created the offices of the High Lords of Terra, and The Administratum. And he did all of that while his sons that remained loyal rallied to his defense. Those sons didn't complain, they all happily fulfilled their role as soldiers, and left the ruling of the empire to the bodies that the Emperor created for those purposes.

Hell the whole concept of "foundings" is based on the fact that after the heresy, once the Primarchs had chased the traitor legions to the EoT, they came back to Terra, and never tried to seize power. They pretty much fell in line with the structure that the Emperor laid out. The Adeptus Astartes are barely even a part of the Imperium anyway. They don't fall under any of the existing branches... they are completely set off. Even the High Lords of Terra acknowledged that and dubbed them "The Cult of the Emperor" essentially making them the only members of the Imperium not forced to follow the Imperial Creed, or bow to the Ministratum.

I don't see why the return of any Primarchs would cause a shift in power.

But then, I don't think any of them will return anyway so...

Brother Captain Alexander wrote:True to that, but I will note just one WAAAGH!!! that was bigger then any other wagh - even Gazzy's one.

Codex: Orks would disagree with that assessment.

Brother Captain Alexander wrote:Battle of Gyros-Thravian led by Warboss Gharkul Blackfang, I don't know the size of his WARGH!!! but it'w warmachine was able to tie down THREE ENTIRE SPACE MARINE LEGIONS ( the Imperial Fists, Luna Wolves, and Death Guard ) WITH THEIR PRIMARCHS AND HE WAS EVEN CLOSE IN DEFEATING THEM. He was only defeated when Emperor arrived with 1,000 Custodes and did a job that 3 of his Astartes Legions with their Primarchs couldn't. This tells you something about Custodes, especially when the lose just 3 of them and slayed literally over 100.000 Orks...

It tells me that (a) it shows how much missing support of the Imperial Guard would hamper the Space Marines and (b) that some novel writers seem to smoke some weird stuff.

I guess those books work out if you regard them like a movie like "300" ...

Brother Captain Alexander wrote:The note say that the battle happened near the end of the great Crusade, when 3 Legions numbered around 365.000 Astartes and + their Primarchs were in battle with them

Armageddon had about half as many Marines, but obviously many, many more regiments of Imperial Guard - easily offsetting that number if we go by Dorn's assessment. And a Primarch is ultimately just a Space Marine +1 and quite killable, as the aforementioned Mr. Dorn has shown.

Provide the circumstances of Dorn's death.

Are we sure Dorn is dead? All we have is his hand.

I think if the primarchs returned they would not be impressed by the state of the imperium because it has completely changed and i think that they would probably have to resort to overthrowing the high lords so they could put the imperium back on track. The idea of space marines siding with the primarchs and imperial guard, sisters of battle etc siding with the high lords would lead to an interesting little civil war imagine that combined with an assault from the eye by unified traitors and at the very last the emperor makes a miraculous recovery that would be awesome.

 Lynata wrote:
Codex: Orks would disagree with that assessment.

I was telling about WARGH encountered by Imperium, in their records only this and Gazzy one were two big ones. The one was beaten, twice, while the other one required Emperor himself to be ended. I call that a win.


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 Lynata wrote:
as the aforementioned Mr. Dorn has shown.

The only 2 records we have about his death are from Space Marine novel ( witch came out in 1993 ) and Index Astartes, even there it wasn't explained how they died and that was written before they made unstoppable super-human warriors that can shake mountain when fighting.

Fluff will be changed when HH get's there, the most logical explanation would be that he is in Trayzn's hands.


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 Lynata wrote:
It tells me that (a) it shows how much missing support of the Imperial Guard would hamper the Space Marines and (b) that some novel writers seem to smoke some weird stuff.

Except that we know that now you need several and more Regiments to conquer a world or even a system if it's lightly defended.
Back then you could conquer entire empires or wipe out a race with just one Legion. And this Warboss almost defeated 3 Legions... that tells you something about this guy... he must have been Gazzy's grand grandfather

As no one seems to have read the fluff in the BRB, I'd like to point out that the Imperium managed to stop the Waagh! of "the Beast" in M.32. It was explicitly bigger than that on Ullanor.

A primarch assuming control of the Imperium would be a terrible scenario.

Aside from the ensuing civil war etc they wouldn't be up to the task. There's no way one being could effectively rule the Imperium and deal with all it's myriad of threats. If the Imperium were anymore centralised it would collapse.

Besides save Guilliman i wouldn't want any of the primachs running the Imperium. They're war leaders, generals, not politicians. Their talents are best used on the battlefield.

The smart thing to do would be to reinstate the position of Warmaster as a permanent office place a massive crusade force under his control. He can then devote himself to the most pressing military threats facing the Imperium.

Thread makes no sense.

The High Lords are not the Primarchs' replacements. They existed before the HH.

Brother Captain Alexander wrote:I was telling about WARGH encountered by Imperium, in their records only this and Gazzy one were two big ones.

Armageddon is the biggest one.

"The planet remains besieged by an Ork invasion of unprecedented size, and Ghazgkull has since laid waste to dozens of planets around Armageddon."
4E C:O - p24

Also, what AlmightyWalrus said. The Beast was larger than Ullanor, and Armageddon is larger than the Beast.

Brother Captain Alexander wrote:The only 2 records we have about his death are from Space Marine novel ( witch came out in 1993 ) and Index Astartes, even there it wasn't explained how they died and that was written before they made unstoppable super-human warriors that can shake mountain when fighting.

What? The Index Astartes already included those legends and myths.

I don't care much about how some Black Library novel breaks with established studio fluff next, but even assuming your theory about survival and captivity, at the end of the day he would still have been beaten by a bunch of line troops guarding a random Chaos cruiser's bridge. Whether he was actually killed or merely crippled and captured is of less significance than the defeat itself.

Brother Captain Alexander wrote:Except that we know that now you need several and more Regiments to conquer a world or even a system if it's lightly defended.
Back then you could conquer entire empires or wipe out a race with just one Legion. And this Warboss almost defeated 3 Legions... that tells you something about this guy... he must have been Gazzy's grand grandfather

Back then you only needed "one Legion" because back then 90% of the worlds the Imperium reconquered were lost human colonies populated by barbarian tribes or isolated pockets of civilisation that somehow managed not to regress further than the Atomic Age.

And strictly going by the fluff, I can provide incidents where a single Space Marine Chapter was enough to recapture a rebelling planet. Hell, if I really wanted to stick to the exact wording, I'd point towards the Order of the Bloody Rose, a bunch of Battle Sisters "liberating a hundred worlds with a force of only a thousand warriors." And that's a Codex quote.

rems01 wrote:Besides save Guilliman i wouldn't want any of the primachs running the Imperium. They're war leaders, generals, not politicians. Their talents are best used on the battlefield.
The smart thing to do would be to reinstate the position of Warmaster as a permanent office place a massive crusade force under his control. He can then devote himself to the most pressing military threats facing the Imperium.

Agreed on both.

 Lynata wrote:
Also, what AlmightyWalrus said. The Beast was larger than Ullanor, and Armageddon is larger than the Beast.

Not true, 6'th edition fluff says that Armageddon 3'rd war was great conflict and that The Beast Arises was the biggest wargh that galaxy has ever seen. Since galaxy is in size much bigger than Imeprium....

I don't care much about how some Black Library novel breaks with established studio fluff next, but even assuming your theory about survival and captivity, at the end of the day he would still have been beaten by a bunch of line troops guarding a random Chaos cruiser's bridge. Whether he was actually killed or merely crippled and captured is of less significance than the defeat itself.

True, we shall let what will writers decide on this point.

Back then you only needed "one Legion" because back then 90% of the worlds the Imperium reconquered were lost human colonies populated by barbarian tribes or isolated pockets of civilization that somehow managed not to regress further than the Atomic Age.

Well not all were like that, Interex was quite powerful and even technologically powerful empire and it has fallen under Luna Wolves. Emtire race Laer was destroye dby Emperor's Children, with high losses I agree - but still...
I am sure there were many powerful enemies, but they were simply not mentioned in fluff so far.

And strictly going by the fluff, I can provide incidents where a single Space Marine Chapter was enough to recapture a rebelling planet. Hell, if I really wanted to stick to the exact wording, I'd point towards the Order of the Bloody Rose, a bunch of Battle Sisters "liberating a hundred worlds with a force of only a thousand warriors." And that's a Codex quote.

So you are agreeing with me that Guard is not quite necessary for Chapters and Orders who number several thousand warrior to conquer a world or system? Good...
But seriously, I agree with you here - you cannot conquer a world with mere feww hundred or thousand solders - super solders or not.


And guys, when I asked if they would gave power I didn't men political but military - would HLoT return to Primarchs rule over Astartes as well as giving them to take command over Guard and Navy units. I know that only Primarch fit to rule Imperium is Guiliman, but what about military power? Would High Lord give military power to them without question or would they rebel for that?
And additional question to that: would they object if the returning Primarch decide to forge Legions again?

Brother Captain Alexander wrote:Not true, 6'th edition fluff says that Armageddon 3'rd war was great conflict and that The Beast Arises was the biggest wargh that galaxy has ever seen. Since galaxy is in size much bigger than Imeprium....

Hmmh, it could be a matter of semantics. Was it the biggest Waaagh the galaxy has ever seen up to that point or is it the biggest Waaagh that the galaxy will ever see?
Granted, it's a slim argument. More important may be the fact that The Beast was not a single huge invasion but rather reads like a whole number of incursions happening "across the Imperium". In other words, if these incursions were all the result of a single Waaagh, then Armageddon may still be the largest single invasion, even if the number of Orks attacking Armageddon was smaller than the number of Orks that made up the entirety of the greenskin forces wreaking havoc during The Beast.

That said, it's not really important enough to actually debate the difference, given that "The Beast" was also long after the Heresy, so the point still stands.

Brother Captain Alexander wrote:So you are agreeing with me that Guard is not quite necessary for Chapters and Orders who number several thousand warrior to conquer a world or system? Good...
But seriously, I agree with you here - you cannot conquer a world with mere feww hundred or thousand solders - super solders or not.

My main argument would be that you cannot conquer a world or a system with just several thousand warriors when you actually have a notable opposition. This is in line with the Space Marines' description in GW studio material:
"The Space Marines are the Imperium's elite fighting troops, a core of highly mobile shock troops trained to fight on land and in space. On the battlefield they are expected to take part in the most dangerous and important attacks, to hold their positions no matter how hopeless their situation. Space Marines are entrusted with all sorts of perilous missions, such as lightning raids behind enemy lines, infiltration attacks to capture vital positions, and tunnel fights in enemy held cities. They also undertake long voyages of planetary exploration and conquest on behalf of the Imperium, earmarking planets which are too well defended so that they can be attacked later with the support of the Imperial Guard."

Generally, we both seem to agree on it being a bit ridiculous how every so often we read about small forces capturing entire planets. I am trying to rationalise it with the report simply omitting auxiliary forces such as the Imperial Guard - or, in the case of Canoness Aspira's liberation campaign, an army of frateris militia. Whilst not being a GW product, I actually liked how Dawn of War Soulstorm represented the Sisterhood's modus operandi in this regard: one of the sector descriptions mentioned them recruiting volunteers from the population of Kaurava. So even though you never actually saw them in the game as a unit, the background did at least mention them in passing.

Brother Captain Alexander wrote:And guys, when I asked if they would gave power I didn't men political but military - would HLoT return to Primarchs rule over Astartes as well as giving them to take command over Guard and Navy units. I know that only Primarch fit to rule Imperium is Guiliman, but what about military power? Would High Lord give military power to them without question or would they rebel for that?
And additional question to that: would they object if the returning Primarch decide to forge Legions again?

Ohhh, that's a far more interesting question.
I think it would depend on the Primarch in question. The manner of his return, his (possibly revisioned) history, his personality, his behaviour, and his willingness to work together with existing Imperial institutions rather than forcing an issue. I could very well see the High Lords grant a Primarch authority over Guard and Navy forces, perhaps Arbites and Sisters as well. Wasn't Dante made Warmaster during the Second War for Armageddon, for that particular warzone?

Or are you thinking all Imperial forces, like Guillaume back then? That's notably less likely given how much time has passed ... but I could see it happen.
I'm impartial to a Primarch actually returning, though. If it's one we know for sure still being around (-> the guys in stasis), okay, but please don't resurrect those who are considered or believed dead. It'll be bad enough that any Primarch returns, for I'm sure that most fiction and a lot of fans would describe it as if Jesus would show up and singlehandedly pull humanity out of trouble. Eugh. To me, 40k shouldn't be about individual characters but rather humanity's struggle as a whole. Much more grimdark that way, and less likely to delve into a cartoonish superhero format. At the same time, I will say that with all the tension that GW has built up regarding the Thirteenth Black Crusade it almost feels like a given that something extraordinary should happen there.

Lots of fluff errors on here haha

Ullanor is fleshed out in the betrayal book, its leaps and bounds bigger than Armageddon.

"to take a city, send a squad, to take a planet, send a company, to take an empire, send a legion, there are of course exceptions to this rule, the enigmatic eldar and the hordes of the orks, but in general the truth of it holds out"
Roboute guiliman, know no fear.

On topic: of the surviving primarchs only a few could take over as a leader of the imperium
Dorn: dorn has both the skill and the history as a builder and leader of men, he would be able to do the job with skill.
Guiliman: this would be his forte, he as the acme to to do the job and would have the loyalty of a vast majority of the chapters, he would of course not.rebuild his legion, I believe he would start by fortifying the ultramar sector and bring back the 500 world's ( or more now) then expand his sphere of.influence.

The other primarchs would work better as warmasters, the lion would be the best qualified, but he would have to.deal with the inherent corruption of his legion first, with the lion as warmaster and guiliman as the overall leader of the imperium I can see the nids going extinct pretty damn fast. Necrons would be next on the list and then dealing with the corruption and lack or.progress of the imperium, when this is resolved chaos would be weakened to the point that the imperium could start to strike.at them effectively.

Formosa wrote:Lots of fluff errors on here haha
Ullanor is fleshed out in the betrayal book, its leaps and bounds bigger than Armageddon.

Rather than fluff errors, it is more a matter of non-studio sources once again promoting a different interpretation of the setting. Working as intended. We should be used to that by now.

"This time the defenders of Armageddon were better prepared than they had been prior to the earlier invasions. Unfortunately for them, so was Ghazghkull. At the head of an Ork Waaagh! many times larger than any the galaxy had ever seen before, Ghazghkull was able to smash aside the defending Imperial fleet and land his forces all across the surface of Armageddon. A battle of unprecedented ferocity erupted - entire hive cities were destroyed by asteroids hurled at the surface from orbiting space hulks, the sulphur-yellow skies of Armageddon became interwoven with the twisting con-trails of thousands of aircraft battling for aerial supremacy, while on the ground, invading Ork hordes clashed with Imperial Guard armies.
Such is the size and enormity of this latest war that so far neither side has been able to gain the upper hand. Hive cities have fallen and been recaptured, and millions of Orks and Imperial warriors have died, but still the war continues with no end in sight. Armageddon is consumed by the greatest single planetary battle the galaxy has ever known."
- http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2110495_The_Battle_for_Armageddon

There's a reason for why the Orks call it the Muvva of all Battles, I guess.

Formosa wrote:"to take a city, send a squad, to take a planet, send a company, to take an empire, send a legion, there are of course exceptions to this rule, the enigmatic eldar and the hordes of the orks, but in general the truth of it holds out"
Roboute guiliman, know no fear.

Whilst on first glance this may sound like typical novel-based Astartes hyperbole, it actually supports my earlier notion regarding a lack of notable resistance during the Great Crusade - and as such for once is in perfect harmony released with the Codex fluff regarding Astartes capabilities and reliance on the Imperial Guard.

All horus heresy fluff is official, the betrayal was written in conjunction with black library, it's official too, Armageddon is a hell of alot smaller than ullanor, the orks there were enormous by 40k standards, there were a hell of alot more of them ( empires worth, not waaghs worth), ullanor was the biggest ork empire to have ever existed, the codex orks fluff is old, its been replaced to a certain extent, ghazy may have the biggest waaagh, but ullanor was the biggest empire, ghazy could.barely deal with 100k astartes and a few million guard, ullanor was whole titan legions, mechanicus skitarii, imperial army, and nearly 4 whole legions...if ghazy encountered even this? Well...

Guilimans quote cements the old "myth" that a single astartes is worth alot more than any other species equivalent, with exception to the eldar and the mass numbers of orks, now in 40k terms I think nids fall into the ork category and necrons/eldar

Formosa, last time when the Primarchs were in charge of anything, things did not go so well (you might have heard of it, it's called Horus Heresy.) Your confidence that they would make things better is unfounded. I'd not trust them to fix a broken tyre, let alone an empire.

Official doesn't make it true.

"Here's our standard line: Yes it's all official, but remember that we're reporting back from a time where stories aren't always true, or at least 100% accurate. if it has the 40K logo on it, it exists in the 40K universe. Or it was a legend that may well have happened. Or a rumour that may or may not have any truth behind it. Let's put it another way: anything with a 40K logo on it is as official as any Codex... and at least as crammed full of rumours, distorted legends and half-truths."
- Marc Gascoigne, Editor, Black Library

If you want to read more on the subject, see this thread where you have an actual BL author who worked on the HH series - Aaron Dembski-Boweden - talk about the myth of canon.

Formosa wrote:Guilimans quote cements the old "myth" that a single astartes is worth alot more than any other species equivalent, with exception to the eldar and the mass numbers of orks, now in 40k terms I think nids fall into the ork category and necrons/eldar

I don't think anyone ever doubted that? I'm a disciple of the "Dorn formula" that 1 Marine = 10 Guardsmen myself.

You still don't attack a city with 100 Guardsmen if you are expecting serious opposition, though.

Some of the primarchs did indeed make things better and would.do so if they returned, guiliman, dorn, lorgar all made the old imperium a near utopia, peturabo would have done had horus not dicked him over too.

Certain primarchs would not and could not lead a new imperium, lion for example would be great at organising and directing wars, but due to his inherent lack of empathy could not lead as a new emperor, others were too much like living weapons or had no aspiration to lead.

Now if we apply this to 40k and the god like cults of personality that have risen around the loyal primarchs, it would be very easy for certain primarchs to take the role of leaders of mankind, the high Lord's would carry on to a certain extent but would almost universally bow to primarchs like guiliman.


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 Lynata wrote:
Official doesn't make it true.

"Here's our standard line: Yes it's all official, but remember that we're reporting back from a time where stories aren't always true, or at least 100% accurate. if it has the 40K logo on it, it exists in the 40K universe. Or it was a legend that may well have happened. Or a rumour that may or may not have any truth behind it. Let's put it another way: anything with a 40K logo on it is as official as any Codex... and at least as crammed full of rumours, distorted legends and half-truths."
- Marc Gascoigne, Editor, Black Library

If you want to read more on the subject, see this thread where you have an actual BL author who worked on the HH series - Aaron Dembski-Boweden - talk about the myth of canon.

Formosa wrote:Guilimans quote cements the old "myth" that a single astartes is worth alot more than any other species equivalent, with exception to the eldar and the mass numbers of orks, now in 40k9 terms I think nids fall into the ork category and necrons/eldar

I don't think anyone ever doubted that? I'm a disciple of the "Dorn formula" that 1 Marine = 10 Guardsmen myself.

You still don't attack a city with 100 Guardsmen if you are expecting serious opposition, though.

That black library quote is an oldie for sure, I accept it when we read about index astartes, but horus heresy is from a first person perspective, this means what we are seeing IS true..from the perspective of character in general, if lorgar tells me that angron can flip a chimeras and index astartes tells me that he can lift a mountain..it's not that hard to know which is hyperbole/myth and the other is true.

That it is written from first person perspective does not make it any more or less true.

Gav Thorpe, ADB, Andy Hoare have all made it quite clear that there are no "facts" in 40k fluff - only lots of overlapping interpretations with various subtle or not-so-subtle differences. So we end up with many contradictions and conflicts and have to pick which version we want to follow. It's just how things are in this franchise.

Anyone who believes that all the stuff is actually supposed to seamlessly tie into all the other products is deluding himself.
Seriously, read the thread I linked. And do not presume that you know better than the authors who actually write what you are basing your vision on.

"from the perspective of the character in general"
Thought I would quote myself there as you clearly missed it haha.

In plain English, if I'm given a first person account, a historical account, and then an account written several thousand years after the fact, I will take the first person account as being the most accurate.

Now I know bias will always be a factor, first person accounts are quite prone to this, as are historic account, mythic accounts are usually the most biased.
So with this scale if I see corax useing a power whip and the story is from his perspective, then it's true, if a codex tells me that he only ever used twin thunder hammers 10k years after the fact and from a historic point of view, then I know to take it as a pinch of salt.

A good example of this
Dw terminators are the best terminators in the galaxy.
Grey knight terminators are better.
The in universe writer would not actually know of the grey knights in all likely hood, so this makes both statements true, from his perspective.

Fair enough - it's all up to us which material to go by, and we all have our own rationalisations on why we do so.

My own preference for studio material originates both from a respect towards the original creators of the setting as pioneers of the past and the future of 40k, as well as the realisation that the more authors join into the process of fleshing it out without strict continuity control, the more contradictions arise (inb4 multilasers). Thusly, by largely limiting myself to a smaller circle of authors I gain a more consistent interpretation of the 41st millennium.

Needless to say, this approach is neither less nor more viable than yours or anyone elses, so the only downside is that it makes a lot of discussions "unsolvable" as we lack a common ground. Alas, that's nothing any of us could change but simply the result of an intentional policy from the powers that be.
Ultimately my original point still stands - there were no "fluff errors" here, just deviating interpretations.

PS: Are the HH novels really written from first person perspective? That would be a fairly new approach; most Black Library books are third person.

Formosa, that's just a silly position. There are all sorts of real myths and legends that are told from someone's perspective. That does not make them any more likely to be true.

Tsk tsk crimson, reading fail on your behalf, I made a distinctio between first person, historical, and mythic.

A mythic story from a first person perspective, is still a myth.

A first person perspective from the ACTUAL person himself that is not historical, or mythic, is... Well first hand knowledge.

Another good example.
I can watch a film about world war 2, saving private Ryan, this film is a myth, these events never happened, but there is some truth in the setting.
I can read a history book from an "expert" on the subject, the book will be written according to the authors bias, it will normally have good information and be well researched.
Or I could go and speak to someone that was actually there, he will more and likely not have the.same over all information that the historian has, but.his version is.first hand, his information feels alot.more real, he was there.

So are "Betrayer" and "Know No Fear" written from first person perspective, and not third?

That said, Black Library's Xenology is also first person, and look how they portray Tau feet or describe the colour of Ork blood.
Just as, to pick up on your example, speaking to someone "who was actually there" does not necessarily grant you a more accurate insight into events. People's memories can be flawed, and in many cases may intentionally omit bad things or emphasise the good, especially where war memories are concerned. For example, the Space Wolves' sagas are ridiculed in-setting as being full of gak, and they are the result of "people who were there" telling their story.

Also, this is an excellent explanation for how the height of Space Marines in the novels keeps changing back and forth between 8 and 14 feet, even though we have the creators of the setting clearly saying it's 7 both in OOC interviews as well as with lifesize design drawings. I suppose in some books, your narrator might just "spice up" things a bit more like in others?
In fact, this might be a viable way to rationalise the novels as part of the wider background. I mean, taking a page from how the Battletech franchise treats its canon, they simply declared the old Battletech cartoon a piece of in-universe holovid propaganda.

 Formosa wrote:
horus heresy is from a first person perspective, this means what we are seeing IS true

It's still just propaganda from an age of legends.

If you want to take EVERYTHING from BL as truth, you'll get a very inherently contradictory view of hte lore.

Formosa, what makes you conclude that HH books are more like accurate eyewitness accounts, rather than like Legends of King Arthur or Gilgamesh, or the stories in the Bibble?

 Formosa wrote:
Tsk tsk crimson, reading fail on your behalf, I made a distinctio between first person, historical, and mythic.

A mythic story from a first person perspective, is still a myth.

A first person perspective from the ACTUAL person himself that is not historical, or mythic, is... Well first hand knowledge.

Another good example.
I can watch a film about world war 2, saving private Ryan, this film is a myth, these events never happened, but there is some truth in the setting.
I can read a history book from an "expert" on the subject, the book will be written according to the authors bias, it will normally have good information and be well researched.
Or I could go and speak to someone that was actually there, he will more and likely not have the.same over all information that the historian has, but.his version is.first hand, his information feels alot.more real, he was there.

But you have to subtract his obvious bias first...oooo and authors bias too....Its called subjective and objective perspective....

Disagree 10001 % with you...no offense


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 Melissia wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
horus heresy is from a first person perspective, this means what we are seeing IS true

It's still just propaganda from an age of legends.

If you want to take EVERYTHING from BL as truth, you'll get a very inherently contradictory view of hte lore.

Just like I said - authors and special characters PoV are not too much objective and ofc their interpretation is contradicting in the end...

Agree 10001 %

 Melissia wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
horus heresy is from a first person perspective, this means what we are seeing IS true

It's still just propaganda from an age of legends.

If you want to take EVERYTHING from BL as truth, you'll get a very inherently contradictory view of hte lore.

I said horus heresy, not all black library.

The point I'm trying to.make ( but clearly must be failing.at) is that if a codex or index astartes article says "the death guard legion was 500k strong, and the horus heresy books say "the death guard legion is 800k strong", im going with the horus heresy account, the modern day ( heh) account looks back with a low amount of accuracy, the heresy account is a version from a character that actually would have that info.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
horus heresy is from a first person perspective, this means what we are seeing IS true

It's still just propaganda from an age of legends.

If you want to take EVERYTHING from BL as truth, you'll get a very inherently contradictory view of hte lore.

I like the way you totally ignored the caveat at the end of the sentence "from the perspective of the character",

 Formosa wrote:

I said horus heresy, not all black library.

Why? What makes HH books special?

The point I'm trying to.make ( but clearly must be failing.at) is that if a codex or index astartes article says "the death guard legion was 500k strong, and the horus heresy books say "the death guard legion is 800k strong", im going with the horus heresy account, the modern day ( heh) account looks back with a low amount of accuracy, the heresy account is a version from a character that actually would have that info.

So legend of King Arthur is more reliable source of information about early-medieval Britain than modern scholarship?

Sure some elements of king Arthur would be more accurate than some sources, it would give a good account ( from the writers of the original) of.how they spoke at the time, how language was used in literature, it would also give a stylised version of how the nobility of the age lived, also examples of livery of the noble families.

Also useing modern day "thesis" is a god awful example, we as a culture are not trying to actively suppress the knowledge of the dark ages, nor has it been 10k years since the incident happened, nor do we worship king Arthur as a living god and his children as avatars of his will.

As to what makes hh so special: prior to the black library books ( and ffg) the entire heresy was mapped out in thr current 40k timeline, the index astartes articles were historical looks back on what happened, filled with conjecture and updates on what happened to certain characters after the heresy.
Now the hh books are coming out they are filling in the large gaps left by the rt/index astartes/ffg versions, these stories are told by people that are living at the time, they are told to us by a character, for example a thousand sons is both told from ahirmans, rembrwncers, and Magnus perspective, it's then all written down by ahirman in his own version of events.
We then have Prospero burns, this is the same story but told from a conflicting side, both stories are true, from the perspective of the characters telling them.

 Formosa wrote:
Sure some elements of king Arthur would be more accurate than some sources, it would give a good account ( from the writers of the original) of.how they spoke at the time, how language was used in literature, it would also give a stylised version of how the nobility of the age lived, also examples of livery of the noble families.

Except most of it never happened. They fought dragons and giants for example.

Also useing modern day "thesis" is a god awful example, we as a culture are not trying to actively suppress the knowledge of the dark ages, nor has it been 10k years since the incident happened, nor do we worship king Arthur as a living god and his children as avatars of his will.

Yes, 40K entierly lacks perspective that tries to be neutal and objective. This still does not make HH books more true.

As to what makes hh so special: prior to the black library books ( and ffg) the entire heresy was mapped out in thr current 40k timeline, the index astartes articles were historical looks back on what happened, filled with conjecture and updates on what happened to certain characters after the heresy.
Now the hh books are coming out they are filling in the large gaps left by the rt/index astartes/ffg versions, these stories are told by people that are living at the time, they are told to us by a character, for example a thousand sons is both told from ahirmans, rembrwncers, and Magnus perspective, it's then all written down by ahirman in his own version of events.
We then have Prospero burns, this is the same story but told from a conflicting side, both stories are true, from the perspective of the characters telling them.

Maybe if you accept it as an historical account rather than a legend, but there is no compelling reason to do so. HH books might just as well be mythologised versions of true events that may or may not have happened, just like IA stories about Primarchs. Many legends are written from someone's perspective, that does not make them true. Hell, even autobiographies that are supposed to be first hand historical accounts are often full of gak.

In any case, this thread has marvellously strengthened my opinion on HH books being a horrible idea.

True about the dragons and giants, but thats why I said "elements"


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Except the horus heresy books are not legends, they are a from the perspective of people that are alive at the time of writing, legends are written after the fact, only 1 hh book is written in that fashion, a thousand sons, it is written by ahirman as demonstrated at the start and.end of the book, none of the other
Books are written in that style

Legends can be written from the perspective of characters. Odyssey is (partly) written from the point of view of Odysseys. It does not mean it is not a legend! How hard this can be?

 Crimson wrote:
Legends can be written from the perspective of characters. Odyssey is (partly) written from the point of view of Odysseys. It does not mean it is not a legend! How hard this can be?

People perform legendary feats, the primarchs are legendary, this is all true, but the books are not written in this format, thats what stops.them being.legends.
If the stories were written in that format I would agree, but there not.

 Formosa wrote:
I said horus heresy, not all black library.

The Horus Heresy is no different. In fac,t given that there's been at least three different versions, it's a great example of the inherently contradictory nature of 40k.

What format is that? That they're not written in Iambic pentameter doesn't mean that they cannot be legends.

Seriously, did you even read what Lynata posted on what the Black Library editor had to say on this subject?