Continuing on from a previous thread which focused on Games Workshops possible closure of business in Australia the same way they did Canada, the issue of postage pricing has come up.

It would seem that being asked to pay 55 pound sterling to post one 17ml pot of paint from the UK to Australia was a bit excessive. So I did a little digging.

The first image shows the disparity between Games Workshop and Forgeworld. For similarly shaped and weighted items to show a price disparity of 53.5 pound sterling is a tad concerning.



At a glance these prices reflect UPS pricing at premium international courier rates, versus the pricing of the UK mail service (vastly cheaper).

The second image, shows the price disparity of sending a Games Workshop Battleforce to Australia and the USA. Note, as I have the battleforce and measured out the rough dimensions and weight, I was able to confirm that the pricing for UPS shipping to Australia lines up almost exactly with what Games Workshop charges, explaining that they may use UPS to ship here. The concerning part is that the cost of shipping to the USA is less than a 3rd of the typical UPS charge - meaning they do not use UPS to ship to the USA.



This would in effect mean that Games Workshop Ltd in the UK are deliberately choosing to ship via UPS to Australia at premium courier rates, yet choosing to ship to the USA using British Royal Mail International, who provide reasonable rates to all countries.

It is also coincidental that with the shipping charges added and converted into their respective currencies, that they are significantly inflated cost wise to the RRP charged rate being sold in their respective countries. Suffice to say there is deliberate and calculated motive to force customers to purchase Games Workshops goods locally.

USD Conversion - $124.49 versus US RRP of $105 (19% Markup)
AUD conversion - $220.94 versus AU RRP of $160 (37% Markup)

My query is, would it be against trade law to serve one country using one shipping method versus another option just to force those countries to buy locally? Whilst it isn't directly modifying the postage costs that are charged out by UPS, it is a blatantly obvious attempt to screw the customer. Especially since two years ago, just prior to the UK embargo, the prices for shipping to Australia were based on British Royal Mail International as were the US shipping prices. This I know for a fact as I had parcels sent out to both Australia and the US back then via Forgeworld, Games Workshop and Wayland Games.

Does nobody else get tired of threads who make out that Australia is being hard done by and make no mention of the fact that the minimum wage in the country is through the roof? If GW wanted to offer similar overseas practices to Australia they could, it would mean sacrificing GW stores in the country though. No "trade laws" are being broken by protecting your own interests.

Does nobody get tired of that post in those threads?

You've completely missed the fact that the exchange rate isn't 32 cents to the pound anymore, its 68 cents. This is what the original pricing was based on back then. It simply hasn't caught up which is where the disparity comes from. Added to the fact GW have deliberately changed providers in a forced effort to push their customers to buy from GW stores in their own country.

This thread has nothing to do with the average income sorry. Minimum wage does not mean that everyone is ON minimum wage, it merely means they can get away with paying people that if a business so chooses.

I don't often see that post to be honest.

At the end of the day GW give you the option to buy locally and if you choose not to do so they charge you a premium because you choose not to support the local set up (which costs a lot more to run in your country because of high overheads brought on by a near double minimum wage). A high minimum wage means a higher cost of living. If you want to have your cake (enforce higher average payments than most countries) and eat it (buy cheap imports) then watch your high street go down the pan.

Simple.

 Morachi wrote:

This thread has nothing to do with the average income sorry. Minimum wage does not mean that everyone is ON minimum wage, it merely means they can get away with paying people that if a business so chooses.

I think you'll find the average GW worker outside of Australia will be on much lower than the minimum wage in your country.

By that logic, we'd be doing the local GW staffers a favour then to have them seek employment with a business that doesn't haul them over the coals like slaves. Perhaps if GW changed their business model from "bleed customers dry" and thought that perhaps by charging reasonable rates that more buy in would occur... then they could afford to pay people a decent wage.

No one I know actually frequents GW stores here in Australia, as they all support the discounted FLGS or buy in bulk from overseas. Those FLGS are rapidly dropping GW as the pricing disparity continues to affect new uptake of products.

In short, they've priced themselves out of what Australians can afford as luxury items - even with our "fantastic" minimum wage, which I might add can't pay a $500 a week rent here in Sydney.

 BolingbrokeIV wrote:
Does nobody else get tired of threads who make out that Australia is being hard done by and make no mention of the fact that the minimum wage in the country is through the roof? If GW wanted to offer similar overseas practices to Australia they could, it would mean sacrificing GW stores in the country though. No "trade laws" are being broken by protecting your own interests.

Ask H.M.B.C. about how GW represents in Australia.

Ask any Australian for that matter - i've been active in the GW hobby since 1996, and i've never seen it so desperate and disgusting.

 Morachi wrote:
By that logic, we'd be doing the local GW staffers a favour then to have them seek employment with a business that doesn't haul them over the coals like slaves. Perhaps if GW changed their business model from "bleed customers dry" and thought that perhaps by charging reasonable rates that more buy in would occur... then they could afford to pay people a decent wage.

No one I know actually frequents GW stores here in Australia, as they all support the discounted FLGS or buy in bulk from overseas. Those FLGS are rapidly dropping GW as the pricing disparity continues to affect new uptake of products.

In short, they've priced themselves out of what Australians can afford as luxury items - even with our "fantastic" minimum wage, which I might add can't pay a $500 a week rent here in Sydney.

The wage in GW stores in the UK and the US in line with most retail work. You'd be hard pressed to find a manager of any high street store in the Uk who earns what the Aus minimum wage converts at currently. the same goes for the people working in the distribution centres and those delivering.

As for your last comment, like I already said, a higher minimum wage equals a higher cost of living.

 BolingbrokeIV wrote:
Does nobody else get tired of threads who make out that Australia is being hard done by and make no mention of the fact that the minimum wage in the country is through the roof?

Does nobody else get tired of posters who make out that minimum wage is a major contributing factor towards GW prices?

I mean, never mind the fact that they do the same thing to New Zealand, Japan, Brazil, South Africa... and so on.

As already stated, this is a purely GW related wage arguement you're putting forward. Minimum wage is not the sole factor here and you'd be naive to believe that the case.

As i've also said, the disparity is based on the currency back in the mid 1990's and has not been adjusted accordingly.

You also seem to be under the assumption that even though our minimum wage is high our expenses are low.

We pay nearly $2 a litre for petrol, rent is around $500 a week for a small average place, my last power bill with no heating and minimal aircon is $500 a quarter, and is set to rise 20% over the next two years.

Our internet is slower and more expensive than many countries and we have low (admittedly getting better) data caps.

We pay more for everything here, to the point where the government is now investigating companies that charge us more for goods delivered electronically than every other country - just because they can.

I earn a fairly good wage - a friend came over from the US thinking I must live like a king and was stunned when they saw the cost of even Macdonalds double what they pay in the states.

So, please, understand when I say that GW is simply too expensive here, many people are turning to other gaming systems such as Warmachine, where a price disparity doesn't exist.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 BolingbrokeIV wrote:
Does nobody else get tired of threads who make out that Australia is being hard done by and make no mention of the fact that the minimum wage in the country is through the roof?

Does nobody else get tired of posters who make out that minimum wage is a major contributing factor towards GW prices?

I mean, never mind the fact that they do the same thing to New Zealand, Japan, Brazil, South Africa... and so on.

You have two shops. One pays the staff twice as much as the other but to all other apearances they are exactly the same. Do you think the store paying higher wages can afford to sell their products at the same rate as the one not doing so? Kind of simple to understand even at the most basic level, not considering the wages of those who distributed/sorted etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

darkslife wrote:
You also seem to be under the assumption that even though our minimum wage is high our expenses are low.

No like I said. A higher minimum wage means a higher cost of living.

Like you explain, a lot of things in your country cost a premium. What makes you think GW products are going to be exempt from this rule.

It is a gross simplification and quite naive to try and claim that minimum wage is a major factor in such things.

And I forgot Canada in my post as well. I guess when the Canadian dollar strengthened and GW prices didn't change it was all to do with minimum wage as well - right?

I think it's pretty naive to think that paying staff twice the wage to do the same job is not a major factor in such things. But there you go.

Oh no! GW must be using an expensive menthod just to spite you! Or perhaps there is a good reason? Perhaps you could ask them?

To me it looks like they are basing it on dilivery speed. Both those costs are roughtly in line with 5 day shipping for parcel force, its just that to go to the US is quicker so they can use a cheaper method. That would be my guess rather than trying to rip people off.

Forge world use basic royal mail post because they don't care how long stuff takes.

They didn't seem to care about it too much before this embargo. In fact it diverted a lot of sales towards their UK site before they proposed this new shipping.

I guess they felt they had to up the quality since they had gained so much attention.

I think whats naive is making claims that paying Aus staff more equates to more expensive prices.
You need to know the basics, GW is a global company. Just like ... they have china make products for cheaper, yet they wont
pass the saving to us , nor will it be cheaper to the chinese. Or... like how they were supposed to save money from finecast,
but they didn't lower the price and pass the savings on to us.

Now, I'll explain the disparity, its simple really.
GW got greedy and over charged Aussies because they can when they first went into the Aus market.
Now, if GW ever lower the price to match the world's their sale will be down effective immediately by 50%
GW have no confidence that in this niche market, the lowered price will guarantee 50% extra purchases to equal the sales.
Because they don't want the investors to freak out, they will never lower the prices.

Now don't bring in the minimum wage lies, look at Canadians, would you like to claim we don't exist?
Because we do, and your minimum wage theory fails if applied to every country that isn't Aus.
Case in point, your theory is flawed ; or as I would say lol... trusting GW's bs lies -.-

Just vote with your feet, whether you choose to buy GW products or not, regardless of the location of the supplier.

There's enough backdoors in the whole embargo/shipping ripoff business that can be circumvented with enough ingenuity, without breaking the law.

Living in Sydney is an expensive preposition, but the WWW has opened so many borders and given us so many choices, I don't notice GW product any more unless someone points out a particularly amazing sculpt to me.

Given the new shipping method changed at almost exactly the same time the UK Embargo was put in place, it does sound like too much of a coincidence.

As for the minimum wage argument, here are some figures for you to consider - in USD;

USD - 7.25 /hr
CAD - 8.04 /hr
UK - 8.53 /hr
NZ - 8.63 /hr
AUS - 9.54 /hr

Here's the source - http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/14/minimum-wage-world_n_2686049.html#slide=more280945

So you're not looking at double. Want to phone a friend?

Our min wage is about $10 an hour, and all shops are 1 man jobs. They are open 5 days a week. They do not get overtime. 8 hour days.

So they pay, for a shop, $80 a day in wages.

A stormraven costs $110, a land raider (a kit long since paid off all expenses and is now just material/shipping cost) is also $110.

There is no local studio, no local white dwarf staff, and a very tiny management team for the nation.

In comparison, I can get Warmachine Colossal for $120, and that is a huge (usually around 50%) of an army. They aren't even overpowered, must have models, like the update book (priced at $43 here) makes space marine fliers.

When forgeworld is cheaper than regular stuff, you have a problem, one that could be solved by closing shop and supporting LGS instead of directly competing with them, which is often what they do here.

darkslife wrote:
When forgeworld is cheaper than regular stuff, you have a problem, one that could be solved by closing shop and supporting LGS instead of directly competing with them, which is often what they do here.

Most GW defenders cant get into the concept that GW is a global company , and if something isn't cost effective they'll pull out.
The only reason GW didn't pull out yet is, there are still customers, and they are still making some sort of profit (wow o_o...)
But we can see GW's desperation hence the embargo, they really want that Aus pie :3

The problem with the wage in Australia is that the dollar is so high.
In the past when the AU was like 60c to the US dollar our wages on a world scale were considered around the same. eg. That $50,000 per year AU back in the day was only really $30,000 US.
Throw in the GFC and the Aussie dollar goes up to record highs and that $50,000AU now given the current exchange rate is over $50,000 US. So just by currency rate increase the so call wage increase is like an extra $20,000 in wealth.

So what happens to this extra $20,000 of so called extra wealth? Nothing really because property, power, water, food and pretty much everything stays at the same level and increases with inflation.

Goods that are brought overseas given the high AU should be cheap because our buying power is so much greater and we are seeing this on some goods but not others. eg Current Federal Inquiry into IT pricing. - Fly to the US buy Adobe Collection and have a holiday and Fly home is cheaper than buying it online it.

I had no problem with the price of GW items about 8 years ago when that Land Raider was $110AU when the AU was only buying $0.60US.

Basically they saw that Aussies were still buying their goods, even if it was through US/UK channels - meaning there was a market here for their goods. They naively thought that if the embargo was in place and they circumvented the price disparity by enforcing premium shipping prices, that we would continue buying their goods at the local rate... in an unstable economy. Really GW?

I guess their propaganda runs deep inside their own office as well, do they realise there are other companies out there rapidly taking up the market fleeing GW akin to rats from a sinking ship? GW must be smoking something to think their ship is actually a yellow submarine.

Whether or not minimum wage is an issue (I think that's bull but for arguments sake) is irrelevant. As are all other considerations here other than 1.

GW have priced themselves out of the Australian market.

Sales have been dropping by about 10% a year for several years now. The Hobbit has been a complete flop here (more so than everywhere else). There are STILL copies if crusade of fire in my local GW. Down in Sydney my mate tells me that GW have tried the move just next to a FLGS and take it out of business approach in at least 2 locations and at both it is the GW store that is constantly empty. The fact that they need the embargo(s) thing paints a pretty clear picture that they know people are buying way too much from overseas sellers.

Simple fact is GW are losing ground rapidly in the Australian market and they are doing anything they can to keep it from being unprofitable but they aren't addressing the issues, just trying to hide them. The cost of operating brick and mortar stores can not possibly account for our utterly fethed up prices.

The shipping costs is them intentionally forcing us to buy from GW Australia as it is blatantly more expensive. We know it, they know it and they know it is the only thing keeping their investors from panicking about the Australian market problems.

 Morachi wrote:
Given the new shipping method changed at almost exactly the same time the UK Embargo was put in place, it does sound like too much of a coincidence.

As for the minimum wage argument, here are some figures for you to consider - in USD;

USD - 7.25 /hr
CAD - 8.04 /hr
UK - 8.53 /hr
NZ - 8.63 /hr
AUS - 9.54 /hr

Here's the source - http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/14/minimum-wage-world_n_2686049.html#slide=more280945

So you're not looking at double. Want to phone a friend?

The minimum wage in australia is currently 15.96 us dollars. So yes more than double. You can get as many sources for that you want just by typing it into google.

Then provide sources like they have with their claim.

Which I might add has only happened in the last couple of weeks. That wage is also based at over 21's.

Still want to explain prior to this last two week period what was going on?

Ok from an aus government website http://www.fairwork.gov.au/pay/national-minimum-wage/pages/default.aspx

 BolingbrokeIV wrote:

 Morachi wrote:
Given the new shipping method changed at almost exactly the same time the UK Embargo was put in place, it does sound like too much of a coincidence.

As for the minimum wage argument, here are some figures for you to consider - in USD;

USD - 7.25 /hr
CAD - 8.04 /hr
UK - 8.53 /hr
NZ - 8.63 /hr
AUS - 9.54 /hr

Here's the source - http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/14/minimum-wage-world_n_2686049.html#slide=more280945

So you're not looking at double. Want to phone a friend?

The minimum wage in australia is currently 15.96 us dollars. So yes more than double. You can get as many sources for that you want just by typing it into google.

Not to be obvious but... the guy you quoted also included a source for the wage figures.
Not doubting your "double" to be wrong, but why don't you include your source too before you dismiss his?

 Morachi wrote:
Which I might add has only happened in the last couple of weeks. That wage is also based at over 21's.

Still want to explain prior to this last two week period what was going on?

It's been over fourteen dolars since 2008 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_wage_law#Australia

He has it right n0t_u, however as that is only a recently adjusted figure based on the outcome of union trade agreements - it still does not account for the last two years (and beyond) where GW have inflated the prices here and done everything in their power to discourage Australians from buying outside the country.

It's been over fourteen dolars since 2008 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_wage_law#Australia

Yes it has, however our exchange rate hasn't been up to USD parity until November 2010. So in effect the wage wasn't anywhere near what you're referring to.

I know for a fact it was over double the uk minimum wage when the embargo was brought in because I remember having a similar conversation back then. Check the link I just gave you and find a historic conversion if you want.

Arguing that the minimum wage does or does not have an effect is fair enough but trying to say that the Australian minimum wage is not much higher than it is in the US and Uk and hasn't been throughout the time of this issue has existed is just plain false.

I'd wager the £1.50 shipping on the Forgeworld site is actually wrong.

Well I guess that means GW wont get any customer under 18 then

The embargo was brought in round May 2011. At that point we were .65 cents to the UK Pound and our wage was $15.00 AUD (9.75 Pound Sterling adjusted).

According to the link below, GW pay 7% above the median rate for a hobby center manager which works out to 42,463.93 Pound Sterling per Annum.

http://www.payscale.com/research/UK/Employer=Games_Workshop%2c_LLC/Job-Listings?startIndex=10

That more or less works out to a 60k AUD a year job, which is nowhere near minimum wage.

I'd wager the £1.50 shipping on the Forgeworld site is actually wrong.

It is correct, i've purchased one off items like this many times in the past and that's what i've been charged. I've even bought eBay items from the UK at similar pricing.

 Morachi wrote:
.

I'd wager the £1.50 shipping on the Forgeworld site is actually wrong.

It is correct, i've purchased one off items like this many times in the past and that's what i've been charged. I've even bought eBay items from the UK at similar pricing.

Cool, in which case maybe just email GW and tell them their website's shipping calculator is overzealous? I've had to do that with US sellers before, and they've been more than happy to sort it out if there's a genuine glitch. Posting on a forum won't get you answers or satisfaction, just a weird armchair lawyer debate about wages, it seems... *puzzled*

 BolingbrokeIV wrote:
I don't often see that post to be honest.

At the end of the day GW give you the option to buy locally and if you choose not to do so they charge you a premium because you choose not to support the local set up (which costs a lot more to run in your country because of high overheads brought on by a near double minimum wage). A high minimum wage means a higher cost of living. If you want to have your cake (enforce higher average payments than most countries) and eat it (buy cheap imports) then watch your high street go down the pan.

Simple.

 Morachi wrote:

This thread has nothing to do with the average income sorry. Minimum wage does not mean that everyone is ON minimum wage, it merely means they can get away with paying people that if a business so chooses.

I think you'll find the average GW worker outside of Australia will be on much lower than the minimum wage in your country.

Going by your logic, GW items in Poland, where the redshirts at the official GW store make around 3-4 USD/hour (pretty close to the minimum wage which is around 2 USD / hour), should be sold for cheaper, then?

Fun times, shame the pricing does not reflect that at all, as the difference after currency conversion is only 2 dollars on most of the kits.

 Alkasyn wrote:
Going by your logic, GW items in Poland, where the redshirts at the official GW store make around 3-4 USD/hour (pretty close to the minimum wage which is around 2 USD / hour), should be sold for cheaper, then?

Yup.

What's the minimum wage in Brazil? GW stuff'd be basically free over there compared to here right?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Alkasyn wrote:
Going by your logic, GW items in Poland, where the redshirts at the official GW store make around 3-4 USD/hour (pretty close to the minimum wage which is around 2 USD / hour), should be sold for cheaper, then?

Yup.

What's the minimum wage in Brazil? GW stuff'd be basically free over there compared to here right?

Seems it has been recently changed to 678 reais ($326) per month for 220 working hours.

220 working hours should in the US more or less equate to ~1,600 USD / month.

Some posters seem to have a double mindset. If the company has to raise prices to make up for conversion rates and minimum wage, why does it not lower the prices in cheaper regions?

Companies generally raise prices to cope with increased costs but rarely ever drop them when conditions are more favourable. Just how it is. Same for any company everywhere.

If you lower prices you lower profit, so you don't do it. It's not evil, it's just business.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Companies generally raise prices to cope with increased costs but rarely ever drop them when conditions are more favourable. Just how it is. Same for any company everywhere.

If you lower prices you lower profit, so you don't do it. It's not evil, it's just business.

Except in GWs case their Australian market is dropping rapidly, lowering prices would go a long way to maintaining their customer base and ensuring long term viability.

This thread reminds me that should we ever get an official gw store here in Switzerland, prices would be so high that I could treat my models as luxury goods.

It happened with Ducati and accessories, everything was sold here at twice the normal price (and they aren't cheap to start with, so you can imagine), ultimately it was cheaper to have things shipped from the factory to the US and bought from there, shipping costs included.
Explanation was "you get higher salaries so you can afford it". Yeah... thanks.

And the same with BMW, they also forbid neighbour countries dealers to sell cars to swiss clients, because we had to pay swiss premium prices in Switzerland. Then the authorities discovered this pattern and suddenly prices dropped in line with EU market.

 jonolikespie wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Companies generally raise prices to cope with increased costs but rarely ever drop them when conditions are more favourable. Just how it is. Same for any company everywhere.

If you lower prices you lower profit, so you don't do it. It's not evil, it's just business.

Except in GWs case their Australian market is dropping rapidly, lowering prices would go a long way to maintaining their customer base and ensuring long term viability.

I wasn't talking specifics, just explaining that generally companies never lower territory/shipping prices once they've raised them. They like to pretend that it averages out over time, and I've been privy to some hilarious self-justifying from our suppliers at the companies I've worked for.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Companies generally raise prices to cope with increased costs but rarely ever drop them when conditions are more favourable. Just how it is. Same for any company everywhere.

If you lower prices you lower profit, so you don't do it. It's not evil, it's just business.

Oh I do know that.

By using my exaggerated parabole I wanted to point toward the fact that the explanations used in this thread makes little sense. Why can the company be excused when it takes all the positive things that come out of globalisation and pass on all the negatives to us? Unnecessarily, might I add - because keeping outdated exchange rates cannot be excused as just maximizing profits.

Yeah I felt super bad for the Auzzies until just the last two weeks Ive read three seperate articles about how rich they all are. One was about the mineral boom and truck drivers and labourers earning a fortune and having boats, one was about a British family that emigrated and have twice as much disposable income, and the other was from a student contributor on the BBC who said they are rolling in money out there.

Considering everyone in the UK is on the bones of their arse, I can kinda understand the disparity. I mean, its not fair obviously, but clearly they think you guys can afford to pay a little more for unimportant frivolous things like toy soldiers.

From that site... I would say the $15 was not the only choice

Juniors:

Under 16 years of age $5.87
At 16 years of age $7.55
At 17 years of age $9.22
At 18 years of age $10.90
At 19 years of age $13.17
At 20 years of age $15.59.
Apprentices

Year 1 of apprenticeship $10.22
Year 2 of apprenticeship $12.08
Year 3 of apprenticeship $14.87
Year 4 of apprenticeship $17.65.

That being said,
I am almost certain that GW's policies are just to keep the AUS market at this price because they doubt a change would increase sales equivalently (and really annoy all the people that bought it at retail that don't know the price disparity across the world)

They cannot think that the value of the dollar (which is the only valid way of comparing company prices on something that is a simple consumer good) is going to tank that far and base policy of that. I mean, it hasn't been at the 'set' level in over 10 years.

 BolingbrokeIV wrote:
You have two shops. One pays the staff twice as much as the other but to all other apearances they are exactly the same. Do you think the store paying higher wages can afford to sell their products at the same rate as the one not doing so?

Now turn that around: You walk into a store to buy something. They charge you twice as much as the guy in front of you who bought the exact same thing, just because you earn more. Sound fair?


Customers don't care a jot about a store's overheads. If a store can't afford to run as cheaply as another store somewhere else, then that's an issue for the store to address.

The minimum wage thing is a red herring. The simple fact is that GW set their price conversion rate 10 years ago when the Oz dollar was worth squat. Then the dollar started doing better... but the price conversion remained the same. For a company that imports everything, that means that somewhere along the retail chain, they're getting more money for the same product. So the old 'but wages are higher!!1!' is meaningless. If they could afford to sell their product at the previous gakky exchange rate despite Oz's wages, they could afford to adjust their prices to match the current currency exchange. Particularly given how much else they have done in the interim to reduce costs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 mattyrm wrote:
Yeah I felt super bad for the Auzzies until just the last two weeks Ive read three seperate articles about how rich they all are. One was about the mineral boom and truck drivers and labourers earning a fortune and having boats,

Yeah, that's great for those who work in the mining industry. Not a lot of wargamers in that industry, though... the work hours don't tend to leave much time for it.

, and the other was from a student contributor on the BBC who said they are rolling in money out there.

So a highly reputable source, then...

 mattyrm wrote:
I mean, its not fair obviously, but clearly they think you guys can afford to pay a little more for unimportant frivolous things like toy soldiers.

And given that GW Oz has been slowly but steadily nose-diving, even with the extra profit margin from the favorable exchange rate, clearly they thought wrong...

 mattyrm wrote:
I mean, its not fair obviously

I fixed that for you, only the relevant part.
No-one is saying we can't buy it at crazy stupid prices... just it is not fair. That's all.

Generally when business do something that is known to be not fair, people don't rationalize it.

 mattyrm wrote:
Yeah I felt super bad for the Auzzies until just the last two weeks Ive read three seperate articles about how rich they all are. One was about the mineral boom and truck drivers and labourers earning a fortune and having boats, one was about a British family that emigrated and have twice as much disposable income, and the other was from a student contributor on the BBC who said they are rolling in money out there.

Considering everyone in the UK is on the bones of their arse, I can kinda understand the disparity. I mean, its not fair obviously, but clearly they think you guys can afford to pay a little more for unimportant frivolous things like toy soldiers.

Not a fair picture.

The mining companies frequently try an sneak in overseas workers to do the work at much lower pay.

Those companies pay very little tax and are taking Australia's wealth for their own.

The average Australian has nothing to do with mining.

It would be like me looking at the queen and thinking every brit has a castle.

Believe me the picture inside the borders is not as pretty as some would make out. The government is inherently dishonest atm, and is actively hiding the true jobless figures. Everything keeps rising in cost far out of step with inflation.

My gaming budget has shrunk due to other expenses going up. GW stuff is neither the best nor are their games that well crafted anymore, so I find FoW or Warmachine far more appealing on price, atheistic - however I do not want to see GW fail in Australia.

...Ive read three seperate articles about how rich they all are...

Oh yeah man!

Once I've paid off the monthly mortgage repayment with the spare diamonds I find under my couch it's nothing but hookers and hash all weekend... oh wait my mortgage repayments are a significant chunk of my monthly pay. Oh look, once I pay for electricity, water, interest on my credit card and any other expenses I'm lucky to have any disposable incoming that doesn't go towards food.

We are all super rich though...

 insaniak wrote:

 BolingbrokeIV wrote:
You have two shops. One pays the staff twice as much as the other but to all other apearances they are exactly the same. Do you think the store paying higher wages can afford to sell their products at the same rate as the one not doing so?

Now turn that around: You walk into a store to buy something. They charge you twice as much as the guy in front of you who bought the exact same thing, just because you earn more. Sound fair?

Customers don't care a jot about a store's overheads. If a store can't afford to run as cheaply as another store somewhere else, then that's an issue for the store to address.

I find it very hard to believe GW puts a higher price on its products in Australia because they think you can afford to pay it. And raising prices is a pretty standard way to address overheads.

I'm hearing a ton of, 'yeh we get higher wages but look at the price of our rents, morgages, fuel costs etc'. Then you are wondering why GW isn't exempt from the average higher cost of things out there? But instead of looking at the most conspicuous reasons you want to believe it's just GW taking it out on you because you have higher wages?

I'll keep saying it. A higher minimum wage means a higher cost of living.

gw don't care, they are looking for a profit by uping prices and trying to control how the customer spend their money - eg. embargos, closing down stores, changing contract with internet stores ect.

they don't care about our wages or if we are eating or paying our rent they just want to get more profit each quarter.sad really

 BolingbrokeIV wrote:
I find it very hard to believe GW puts a higher price on its products in Australia because they think you can afford to pay it.

And yet when the dollar went up, prices stayed the same. They're making more money per sale, because they think that they can get away with doing so. And then when people started catching on to what they were doing, rather than addressing the actual issue they choose to just make it harder for us to buy from overseas.

I'm hearing a ton of, 'yeh we get higher wages but look at the price of our rents, morgages, fuel costs etc'. Then you are wondering why GW isn't exempt from the average higher cost of things out there? But instead of looking at the most conspicuous reasons you want to believe it's just GW taking it out on you because you have higher wages?

Nobody thinks that GW are exempt from the costs of running a business. But those costs are all internal costs. The cost of rent isn't affected by exchange rates. Their stock however comes in from outside the country... and the cost of that stock has dropped dramatically due to the huge increase in the value of the Oz Dollar.

So the cost of their stock has gone down, but GW chose to not pass that saving onto customers. And so customers start noticing that other countries pay significantly less... it should hardly be surprising that they might take that amiss.

Ill keep saying it. A higher minimum wage means a higher cost of living.

But doesn't automatically mean more free spending money. How many of GW's potential customers are on minimum wage? An how much free cash do they have?

That's the relevant issue here. GW's products are a luxury item. As such, they are only purchased by those with the free cash to do so. If they price that product at a level where people don't have enough cash to buy them... sales go down.

Minimum wage is far, far less relevant than how much disposable income GW's actual potential customers have... and how canny they are about what they choose to spend it on.

What's the disparity between Aus and the rest of the world with regards to stuff from other companies?

For example if you bought something from Flames of War, Warmachine, or Infinity - how does the price compare then? I think that would be a pretty fair comparison to make.

I remembered Warmachine as being closer in price, but after a quick look just now they appear to be running with a similar markup on RRP to GW.

Having said that, PP haven't tried to stop Oz customers from purchasing from overseas if they feel so inclined. So we're left to make that choice (pay more to have it now, or pay less and wait a while) for ourselves.

To be honest, while the 'Oz Tax' is annoying and people don't like it, it's at least more or less accepted as normal practice, and those of us who are aware of the pricing disparity between Oz and the rest of the world can at least live with it so long as we know that we have alternatives.

That's where GW really jumped the shark here. Pricing Oz merchandise higher was bad... but then trying to remove any other option for purchasing was downright rude.

Flames is(was...not sure if they moved) New Zealand based...so no premium pricing.

Infinity and PP largely utilize 3rd party distributors in Australia as it is more economical than sending individual packets. Neither of them have embargos though, so if an Aussie customer can get it cheaper in the UK...they are welcome to have it shipped to their door.

Good Games was a big distributor a few years back IIRC, and you can compare prices through their online store easily enough.

http://shop.goodgames.com.au/miniatures/warmahine-hordes/battlegroups.html

http://goodgames.com.au/

There is a certain level of markup which is related to various taxes (think Australia has a 7% GST) as well as shipping to the far reaches of the globe...but nothing like you see with GW.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
There is a certain level of markup which is related to various taxes (think Australia has a 7% GST) as well as shipping to the far reaches of the globe...but nothing like you see with GW.

GST is 10%. There is also a customs duty that may apply to some products of 5 or 10%. Neither of those apply to shipments under $1000 in value.

 Pacific wrote:
What's the disparity between Aus and the rest of the world with regards to stuff from other companies?

For example if you bought something from Flames of War, Warmachine, or Infinity - how does the price compare then? I think that would be a pretty fair comparison to make.

For wargaming, it varies. Warmachine is pretty pricey, but I get the impression it is in the US as well. Infinity is relatively cheap, fireteam boxes sitting at $36au, individual models at $16au, multi model boxes at $26au.

Speaking from an IT perspective, here's a hilarious disparity. It's cheaper to buy a return flight to LA and pay for a passport, fly there, and but Adobe Creative Suite, and fly back, than it is to pay local RRP.

I was mainly thinking for a distributor like Good Games who likely pays the GST and import taxes on all their restock orders.

Looking at their site though and comparing it to The War Store, it looks like most the prices are close, with some being cheaper.

A few were a bit higher, but not beyond what the tax might add to it (which before the apologists get into it...UK has a 20% VAT which is included in the UK prices, and they use the price with tax to calculate RoW prices...).

 mattyrm wrote:
Yeah I felt super bad for the Auzzies until just the last two weeks Ive read three seperate articles about how rich they all are. One was about the mineral boom and truck drivers and labourers earning a fortune and having boats, one was about a British family that emigrated and have twice as much disposable income, and the other was from a student contributor on the BBC who said they are rolling in money out there.

Considering everyone in the UK is on the bones of their arse, I can kinda understand the disparity. I mean, its not fair obviously, but clearly they think you guys can afford to pay a little more for unimportant frivolous things like toy soldiers.

I don't think you paint a terribly accurate picture. Yes, you can go to any country and find wealthy people, you can go to India and find plenty of wealthy people. I don't know a lot about the UK, but I know the US if you work in low wage jobs or are struggling to find employment, you're better off being in Australia, but if you work higher wage jobs, you're better off being in the US. In Australia I was always surprised how much my labourer friends could earn relative to how much I could earn with an aerospace engineering degree..

 BolingbrokeIV wrote:
I don't often see that post to be honest.

At the end of the day GW give you the option to buy locally and if you choose not to do so they charge you a premium because you choose not to support the local set up (which costs a lot more to run in your country because of high overheads brought on by a near double minimum wage). A high minimum wage means a higher cost of living. If you want to have your cake (enforce higher average payments than most countries) and eat it (buy cheap imports) then watch your high street go down the pan.

I think you'll find the average GW worker outside of Australia will be on much lower than the minimum wage in your country.

I don't play in GW stores, why should I pay the tax to keep them running?

If it costs so much to staff over here, why aren't my online orders put together in the UK to keep overheads down? Because shipping from the UK is so cheap.

 -Loki- wrote:
Speaking from an IT perspective, here's a hilarious disparity. It's cheaper to buy a return flight to LA and pay for a passport, fly there, and but Adobe Creative Suite, and fly back, than it is to pay local RRP.

Which we should point out is the subject of a government enquiry. If economics (and international economics) really was as simplistic as some people here are making it out to be ("Minimum wage determines everything yo!"), then I doubt there would be such an enquiry.

Hell, Economics as a science isn't as simple as frakking economists make it out to be. I'm convinced at least half of it is complete bs. There are too many variables to consider. It is severely restricted to a closed environment with only one independent variable.

 Amaya wrote:
I'm convinced at least half of it is complete bs.

As an engineer who had to take economics units in university, I think "half" is being generous One of my lecturers, when explaining something in science that is poorly understood and often erroneously used, described it like "It's like economic modeling, it can't predict anything and can't tell you anything useful that hasn't already happened".

I'm on my third fething econ course. It's just BS piling onto BS at this point.

edit: Microeconomics is useful for evaluating how to manage your business's finances probably. Macro is where it really relies on gross over simplifications.

I did get the impression that the people who made the economics (mostly macro) course I took really weren't good at either maths or science given the gross misuse of maths and the inability to understand when assumptions are no longer valid.

Thoughts like "Australians have a higher minimum wage therefore we can fleece them more!" without considering the assumptions of how much disposable income do people have, how close to market saturation are they, what are the main buyers of the product and how much money do THEY have (the median band in Oz actually doesn't make all that much more than other countries, the low end make more which drives up the average, but are the low end your target audience if they are struggling to pay their rent from month to month?), how significant are worker wages compared to other countries (not "minimum wage", what you actually pay them) and is it significant enough in the grand scheme of things to actually affect prices.

People love to take an overly simplified view of economics and make statements that have so many assumptions attached they're almost impossible to prove.

One thing that can be proven, GW are doing poorly in Oz, GW customers in Oz are pissed off at GW, GW customers in Oz would rather import, go to local discount stores or simply start another game. Surely given that the concept of "they make more and have higher expenses so they will pay more" is flawed.

I'm not even convinced closing GW stores in Oz is a good idea. At the height of GW popularity in Oz, the stores would have been a huge source of revenue because they were packed day after day and the counter was running almost constantly many nights of the week. Granted, it was a different time, but it's hard to say keeping stores open is the problem when I personally think they were previously making good money off stores.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I'm not even convinced closing GW stores in Oz is a good idea. At the height of GW popularity in Oz, the stores would have been a huge source of revenue because they were packed day after day and the counter was running almost constantly many nights of the week. Granted, it was a different time, but it's hard to say keeping stores open is the problem when I personally think they were previously making good money off stores.

Not as much as you'd think. Only one or two stores every really did well. The one that did the best is the one nearest to me that's still open, but is in the middle of fething nowhere compared to where it used to be and I can't imagine that it's abysmal new location is doing it any favours.

Just a question, how difficult is it to get GW product in AU if you're not ordering from GW? I know GW did some nonsense to prevent 3rd parties from shipping into AU but I dont know the specifics.

darkslife wrote:
It would be like me looking at the queen and thinking every brit has a castle.

Could have sworn this was true

But on topic:
But seriously, as someone that is scoffing at the US Prices, the price disparity for AUS prices is a little crazy, I posted something in a similar thread a few weeks ago, someone pointed out the pricing of an iPod Touch between US and AUS, which a few years ago was pretty bad (like easily over 100 dollar difference) there is still some disparity (it's 20 to 50 dollars more in AUS than US I believe), but it's gotten better. Whereas GW is still charging like twice the amount for their product. Check the prices for a Tactical Squad between GBP, USD, and AUD... it's insane to see the differences, and there is no reason why anyone should say, "the aussies have no right to complain."

I'm not paying 62 dollars for a fething tactical squad...

 Alfndrate wrote:

darkslife wrote:
It would be like me looking at the queen and thinking every brit has a castle.

Could have sworn this was true

But on topic:
But seriously, as someone that is scoffing at the US Prices, the price disparity for AUS prices is a little crazy, I posted something in a similar thread a few weeks ago, someone pointed out the pricing of an iPod Touch between US and AUS, which a few years ago was pretty bad (like easily over 100 dollar difference) there is still some disparity (it's 20 to 50 dollars more in AUS than US I believe), but it's gotten better. Whereas GW is still charging like twice the amount for their product. Check the prices for a Tactical Squad between GBP, USD, and AUD... it's insane to see the differences, and there is no reason why anyone should say, "the aussies have no right to complain."

I'm not paying 62 dollars for a fething tactical squad...

welp give it another year or two and that will be the USD price

 ironicsilence wrote:
Just a question, how difficult is it to get GW product in AU if you're not ordering from GW? I know GW did some nonsense to prevent 3rd parties from shipping into AU but I dont know the specifics.

There are a few independants who sell online and have been around forever (I've been buying miniatures from Milsims since back before the internet, when they had a gigantic paper catalogue that they updated about every three months and mailed out to people). There's a scattering of smaller indies, but they tend to come and go, since most of them are set up by gamers with no actual business sense who don't realise just how hard it is to run a successful shop (so pretty much the same as in the rest of the world, just more spread out ).

With the EU embargo, and ordering from US stores just being a pain, most of my purchasing these days is either through Milsims (20% standard discount and regular-ish mega specials) or eBay (for overseas prices).

1) (Can't believe this hasn't been corrected for 3 pages) GW doesn't manufacture models in china, the only things made in china are things like the clippers and such and only because they are purchased and repackaged. All GW models are made in England with limited runs being done out of the US factory which means GW pays REAL WORLD WAGES to it's manufacturing employees not Asian slave labor prices.

2) Folks are right, the higher minimum wage in Australia does not solely account for why prices are so much higher there. However as half the Australians here have complained I'm betting the higher rent, utilities and other higher expenses in Australia do. Not saying it covers it all but if you're paying $500 a week for a gakky apartment how much do you think GW pays for retail space per square foot? Then add to that the electricity bill that's obviously much higher than yours. Running a store in Australia by the sounds of it costs a helluva lot more than it does in other places. Add to that differences in trade laws, shipping distances, shipping efficencies and a laundry list of other things that affect price and you can't boil the argument down to just "minimum wage" and "currency exchange". You live on an isolated island continent, while differences in prices on electronic goods is likely outright price gouging, pricing on physical goods is far more complicated.

Oh and FYI....I think GW putting an embargo on European resellers was the right move for the company and showed that they had finally started to put on the big boy corporate pants. Everytime you bought product from some dude with a hole in the wall and a webstore you were taking money right out of the pockets of your local GW's and more importantly your FLGS who would never be able to compete with them. GW was not "screwing over it's customer base" it was protecting it's local independents and GW Australia. Something just about ever global company has to do. You can not like it all you want, you can be upset with it all you want but buying from European stores who have far lower shipping and other associated costs was like walking into your FLGS and kicking the owner square in the balls.

3) Why would GW want to react quickly to fluctuating currency markets? Are you saying that if the Australian dollar tanks week after week GW should quickly raise prices to follow suit?

4) You can't tell me that bulk shipping by sea to Australia from the UK is not significantly more expensive than bulk shipping by sea from the UK to North America. You seem to be confusing air freight costs which deal with volumes far lower that what GW would need to ship to supply a continent with the prices of shipping by boat. Congrats, you can ship 2 kits from the UK to Australia by air for cheap.....do the same for several shipping containers worth of product many of which I'm willing to bet can't be shipped by air due to the nature of the product. (correct me if I'm wrong but I'm guessing sprays and paints are fans of unpressurized cargo bays)

5) Several years ago before GW Canada and GW USA merged to become GW north America (And until Kirby came over and cleaned house former GW Canada propped the whole damn thing up) GW Canada actually significantly dropped prices on many things for a while. Unlike most posters here would assume sales of Warhammer did not miraculously increase, money and customers did not rain from on high, instead GW Canada lost money equal to the price drop, sales stayed static and it simply proved what GW already knew.....prices DON'T really affect the bottom line a significant amount. Warhammer is a niche luxury product....it's not significantly affected by rises of falls in price despite the amount of yelling the internet likes to throw at it pretending it's true. The best proof of this is the fact that GW's bottom line didn't tank over the last several despite a global economic meltdown....and no matter how you cut the numbers GW most certainly didn't tank like it should have if it's sales/revenues were dependent on the state of the economy.

Are some countries paying more than they should be all things equal? Probably, is GW doing anything that pretty much every other global company on the planet does? Not in the least. You ever look at the price difference between automobiles country to country? It's ridiculous as is the pricing disparities of hundreds of other products country to country. Why the hell is a university textbook here $600 when the same book is $100 in Asia? Not saying it's right and certainly not saying that there is a certain degree of over-paying but it's not at the level of fleecing that many people here seem to be making it out to be. GW's markup on it's product is about 35% which is a perfectly normal markup for retail products, unlike that 900% markup anyone using an apple product pays.

It's not personal people, it's just (good) business.

Orktavius wrote:
It's not personal people, it's just (good) business.

Except GW are doing increasingly poorly downunder, so clearly it's not terribly (good) business. Pissed off customers who increasingly explore the competition are not good business.

To address some of your other points. I don't expect GW to react quickly to exchange rate changes by adjusting prices constantly. However, GW have regular price hikes anyway, if they just put their hikes on hold for a year or two, it'd be more in line, instead they choose to keep increasing prices.

As for running a business being more expensive, well it may be, but you don't compensate by pushing up prices to the point of driving away customers. From what I've read, rent on a store in a similar urban location in Oz is comparable to the US. That is, if you open a store in the middle of a city, rent is similarly high, if you open one on the outskirts, it's similarly cheap. If people can and do mail order stuff from the other side of the world cheaper than you can provide it locally, you're doing something wrong and trying to stop them from importing isn't "good business".

Oh, and your point about "kicking FLGS in the balls" by importing, I only feel that would be true if GW were actually supplying them the miniatures at a globally competitive price and any price increase here vs the rest of the world was simply because the FLGS actually had higher overheads. If GW are charging FLGS more to stock the product based on their locations, it's GW kicking them in the balls, not us. Over the years my nearby FLGS have reduced their GW stock to the point where if you want anything other than one of the dozen or so boxes they have in stock, you have to order it in because it is not worth their effort carrying GW stuff. I don't feel bad about that, GW should feel bad about not offering a competitive product.

Your point 5 I think is just speculation and conjecture.

Yes, there are pricing disparities regardless of what industry you talk about (you could buy an Australian made car in the US cheaper than it costs in Australia). However, as international travel, shipping and communication all become more widespread, companies are going to need to adjust. GW is adjusting by pissing off it's customers, driving them to import and driving them to competitor's products. Not what I call good business.

GW's saving grace is the nature of their games, once people own an army they tend to like to maintain and build it further, so in the short term their customers may be less sensitive to their , but I think in the long term they're shooting themselves in the foot by pissing off customers and driving away the support of the FLGS who they rely on for both advertising and distribution.

Orktavius wrote:
1)

Who said they did?

2)

To which the response is: 'So?'

As a customer, a company's running expenses are not my concern. My concern is in getting the product I want at a reasonable price. If a company can't offer me their product locally at a price that I'm happy with, I'll go elsewhere. That's just the way business works.

Everytime you bought product from some dude with a hole in the wall and a webstore you were taking money right out of the pockets of your local GW's and more importantly your FLGS who would never be able to compete with them.

And again: 'So?'

Every time I buy from the LGS up the road, I take money right out of the pockets of the LGS a little further up the road.

Again, that's just business. Somebody is going to get my money. As a customer, it's my choice as to whether that somebody is the somebody 5 minutes up the road, in another state, or in another country.


If GW were actually concerned about protecting Australian businesses, they would have passed on the saving they are making on the current exchange rate, rather than trying to dictate where customers can purchase from. Given customers a reason to want to shop locally.

3)

Do you know how many price rises we had here back in the '90s and '00s that were explained as being the fault of the exchange rate?

And yet,. funnily enough, no price reduction when the dollar goes the other way.

4)

Again, a company's running costs are none of my concern. It's up to them to offer their product at a reasonable rate. It's not my job to justify their costs.

5)

Actually, all that proved was they sales dropped off at the same time as the price dropped. And possibly that Canadians at that time weren't buying a heck of a lot internationally.

And Canada isn't Australia. Internet shopping has only really taken off here in any substantial way in the last few years. Hence GW's move comparatively recently to try to stop it. The issue isn't that Oz's gamers are only buying as much as they ever will... It's that they're buying from elsewhere because it is cheaper. Lowering prices would make shopping overseas less attractive... and so would increase sales here in Oz.

Insaniak just hit the nail on the head. Exalted.

It's like anything - Retail here in Australia has been rough and smart businesses have had sales to get market "buy in". GW hasn't had a sale since the late 90's. As a result, people look for their bargains elsewhere. If a business is seeking loyalty, they have to be seen as providing a service or value to warrant that customer loyalty. GW stores provide precisely nothing in the way of customer service other than acting like drug pushers 90% of the time. I've had perhaps ONE good experience in a GW store and I even went as far as to praise the lad on the store facebook page because of the way he treated me - like a human being. I made myself a promise that i'd go back and buy something (won't be a huge purchase) just to show my appreciation.

FLGS's are undermined by the fact the products they're selling have hardly any profit margin for them at retail - especially if they want to remain competitive. This is GW's doing as they could bring down the wholesale price thereby making it easier for stores to justify the store space to stock goods they can actually on-sell.

We are living in a global market, long gone are the days when your only options were those you could comfortably drive to across town.

Simple fact is, they've priced themselves out of what the current market deems to be a good return on investment. As a result, we either look for alternatives in the form of other games or better value. Since the US has offered us a means to buy at half the price of course we are going to pursue that avenue.

Frankly if you're aware of those savings and still walk into a GW store you have more money than sense, especially given it is a luxury item.

As for a 35% markup, that's rubbish. My distributor sells at 38% off the RRP for starters, so add in his cut to that and you will quickly see they mark up products substantially more. Figures were released a while ago on the costings and it was quite substantial, if I find them again whilst browsing i'll edit this post.

 BolingbrokeIV wrote:
Does nobody else get tired of threads who make out that Australia is being hard done by and make no mention of the fact that the minimum wage in the country is through the roof? If GW wanted to offer similar overseas practices to Australia they could, it would mean sacrificing GW stores in the country though. No "trade laws" are being broken by protecting your own interests.

This is true.

It's a problem, isn't it? Everything is more expensive here because everyone has more to spend.

But, y'know, any kind of cut to wages or to welfare would be a bad thing.

My beef is that they don't allow UK companies to ship here.
that is why we're hard done by.

I've read quite a bit here and I don't know about the trest of you, but I'd rather have my stuff take a little longer to get to me, for a reasonable price, than pay craptastic shipping to get it here on the quick. In the end, I get my products and I keep a little cash in my pocket.

And yes, a high minimum wage can affect pricing domestically and internationally because those businesses now have to pay a higher wage to their employees, driving up the price of the products and services they sell. If you don't think a high minimum wage does this, then you failed even basic economics.

It's quite simple: if you're a business owner, and the state and/or federal governments order you to pay your employees more, you'll have to do *something* to offset the higher costs. Normally this is charging higher amounts for your product and/or services or simply downsizing your workforce and hoping you can make production quotas with the smaller number of employees.

In any case, with the Australian minimum wage being so blasted high compared to US, UK, and others mentioned in this thread I haven't heard once about inflation. What's inflation like in Australia?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

...Ive read three seperate articles about how rich they all are...

Oh yeah man!

Once I've paid off the monthly mortgage repayment with the spare diamonds I find under my couch it's nothing but hookers and hash all weekend... oh wait my mortgage repayments are a significant chunk of my monthly pay. Oh look, once I pay for electricity, water, interest on my credit card and any other expenses I'm lucky to have any disposable incoming that doesn't go towards food.

We are all super rich though...

I didn't say that, what I wrote is right there in black and white. I said it wasn't fair and was playing devils advocate, merely pointing out a reason why GW may persist with their ludicrously unfair prices in Oz.

In any case, with the Australian minimum wage being so blasted high compared to US, UK, and others mentioned in this thread I haven't heard once about inflation. What's inflation like in Australia?

It's like everything else in Australia, it's trying to kill you.

I cannot believe that in this day and age some people are stupid enough to believe that the price of something is connected to the cost of manufacture.

Price is relative to the amount that the business thinks people are willing to pay.

A good case in point is cosmetics, quite often if a cosmetic has really fancy packaging the packaging is the most expensive part of the product and might cost something insane like $3-4 (and that's VERY expensive) , however the companies charge what idio...people are willing to pay.

Gw prices in aus are based on what GW thinks we are willing to pay, unfortunately they overestimated and instead of rectifying the situation chose to impose some weird tarriff on our market. The prices are not based on FeKKin cost of living , manufacture costs or some other tripe. How much do you think it costs to manufacture and distribute a box of moulded plastic?

Gw has bungled and are doing a great job at killing their market share.

I cannot believe that everytime this comes up there is always some bridge dweller who decides it's going to be great to make some non-sensical argument and piss off a sizeable amount of antipodians.
This GW pricing is beyond acceptable. PPs pricing is acceptable. Infinities too. and Fow and all the others. For a company that relies on selling plastic crack, i'd be worried if i was them if 10% of my junkies were going to another dealer.

I see posters going "Australia's wage's are higher, hurr durr, therefore it must be more expensive."

I ask again - why doesn't that logic apply backwards? Why aren't GW models cheaper in Brasil or Poland?

 Alkasyn wrote:
I see posters going "Australia's wage's are higher, hurr durr, therefore it must be more expensive."

I ask again - why doesn't that logic apply backwards? Why aren't GW models cheaper in Brasil or Poland?

Coz poor excuses only work one way We hear excuses about why GW prices go up, then as soon as the situation is reversed... pricing keep going up.

If the GW stores in Australia are SUCH a drain on funds that they have to completely feth the consumer in the face with pricing, why have them? Why not just do mail orders and FLGS stuff? The whole "they promote the hobby" thing is crap, the only people I see in GW stores anymore are the odd 13 year old kids painting Grey Knights. The service in GW stores has gotten so bad they've become a running joke to every player I know. They pick up more customers where I live because a punter will go into the store with the model planes and stuff, see the Warhammer and go from there.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Alkasyn wrote:
I see posters going "Australia's wage's are higher, hurr durr, therefore it must be more expensive."

I ask again - why doesn't that logic apply backwards? Why aren't GW models cheaper in Brasil or Poland?

Coz poor excuses only work one way We hear excuses about why GW prices go up, then as soon as the situation is reversed... pricing keep going up.

Same reason gasoline goes up but never comes down.

If the market will tolerate the higher price, then there is no reason for the company to ever drop the price. So if the markets in Poland and Brazil are tolerating the higher prices (relative to minimum wage) then GW has no reason whatsoever to lower them.

Now, the problem comes when the market will no longer tolerate the prices asked. Like what is happening in Australia.

Personally, I believe GW will get what's coming to them from that continent, and will eventually fall apart.

This does not, however, staunch my love for the game any! Just utterly destroys any faith or loyalty I had in the company at all.

 BolingbrokeIV wrote:

 Morachi wrote:
By that logic, we'd be doing the local GW staffers a favour then to have them seek employment with a business that doesn't haul them over the coals like slaves. Perhaps if GW changed their business model from "bleed customers dry" and thought that perhaps by charging reasonable rates that more buy in would occur... then they could afford to pay people a decent wage.

No one I know actually frequents GW stores here in Australia, as they all support the discounted FLGS or buy in bulk from overseas. Those FLGS are rapidly dropping GW as the pricing disparity continues to affect new uptake of products.

In short, they've priced themselves out of what Australians can afford as luxury items - even with our "fantastic" minimum wage, which I might add can't pay a $500 a week rent here in Sydney.

The wage in GW stores in the UK and the US in line with most retail work. You'd be hard pressed to find a manager of any high street store in the Uk who earns what the Aus minimum wage converts at currently. the same goes for the people working in the distribution centres and those delivering.

As for your last comment, like I already said, a higher minimum wage equals a higher cost of living.

Holy crap, I just looked at the average minimum wage, $15.96 an hour, I work for an aerospace company in the engineering labs and wayyyyyy under what someone in McDonalds in Australia would be earning. wow.


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Bullockist wrote:
I cannot believe that in this day and age some people are stupid enough to believe that the price of something is connected to the cost of manufacture.

Price is relative to the amount that the business thinks people are willing to pay.

A good case in point is cosmetics, quite often if a cosmetic has really fancy packaging the packaging is the most expensive part of the product and might cost something insane like $3-4 (and that's VERY expensive) , however the companies charge what idio...people are willing to pay.

Gw prices in aus are based on what GW thinks we are willing to pay, unfortunately they overestimated and instead of rectifying the situation chose to impose some weird tarriff on our market. The prices are not based on FeKKin cost of living , manufacture costs or some other tripe. How much do you think it costs to manufacture and distribute a box of moulded plastic?

Gw has bungled and are doing a great job at killing their market share.

I cannot believe that everytime this comes up there is always some bridge dweller who decides it's going to be great to make some non-sensical argument and piss off a sizeable amount of antipodians.
This GW pricing is beyond acceptable. PPs pricing is acceptable. Infinities too. and Fow and all the others. For a company that relies on selling plastic crack, i'd be worried if i was them if 10% of my junkies were going to another dealer.

This I agree with, GW are unacceptable right around the world for what you get. The new edge highlight paints are the worrying trend, £2.55 a pot, so I'm guessing if they're popular enough then that'll be the base prices for ALL paints.

I can totally understand they're a business, but jesus, they're expensive as hell!

I feel I've got to make a point here. For those of you who think minimum wage is the root cause of pricing disparity, you really need to take off your blinders. Let's look at Japan--there is no more illustrative example in the world. In Japan, those who pay full GW retail pay more than anyone else. Guess what...minimum wage in Tokyo (highest m. wage in the country) is $8.37 USD. Minimum wage is a silly argument.

And Brazil, where a Tactical Squad is AUD$51 (to Oz’s AUD$60), their minimum wage is 1/4th that of the US. The US price for a Tac squad is AUD$35.

Minimum wage is not the contributing factor people make it out to be.

Here's hoping the point never needs to be made again.

 ManSandwich wrote:
If the GW stores in Australia are SUCH a drain on funds that they have to completely feth the consumer in the face with pricing, why have them? Why not just do mail orders and FLGS stuff?

Because if they rely solely on FLGS's for advertisement, then they are directly competing with the rest of the industry they are trying to convince their customers doesn't exist.

When someone walks into a FLGS and sees Warmachine, Infinity, Malifaux, Dystopian Wars, Flames of War, Kings of War, Warpath, Firestorm Armada, Dropzone Commander, all of the even smaller but still quality stuff like Tommorrows War (which uses any miniatures you want) and the plethora of historicals available, suddenly their product doesn't seem as cool and unique and people might just go look at a game that offers tham a whole army for what you get two or three squad boxes for in 40k or Fantasy.

On the subject of higher minimum wages i'd like to add :

In Australia we have:

Relatively high income tax
A consumption tax
Mandatory superannuation input
A fresh new "save the world" consumption tax
Insane house prices which leads to high rents.

As others in this thread have pointed out,all this talk of high wages means nothing if the disposable income does not increase.

Bullockist wrote:
Insane house prices which leads to high rents.

This is something that gets overlooked a lot. A very, very small 2 bedroom house on the outskirts of Sydney is minimum $300,000 if you are buying a free standing house, $400,000 if you are building new. Rent sits at about $300per week if you are lucky, mortgage repayments at about $400per week if you managed to save a very good deposit. Housing alone is generally taking half of your weekly income if you are earing the average wage in Australia. Anecdotally, no working families I know earn the average wage.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
And Brazil, where a Tactical Squad is AUD$51 (to Oz’s AUD$60), their minimum wage is 1/4th that of the US. The US price for a Tac squad is AUD$35.

Minimum wage is not the contributing factor people make it out to be.

I must've been completely ignored, because I addressed why this could be a few posts ago.

We're more addressing the people who bleat "Minimum wage! Minimum wage!" whenever the talk of variying regional prices come up and just how much minimum wage doesn't factor into these sorts of decisions.

GW's Australian prices are based upon exchange rates from a decade ago, when there was 3:1 $:£ conversion rate, and AUD:US was 2:1. Those exchange rates were a long time ago though, and we've been sitting at 3:2 $:£ for a while now and AUD has been either equal to or higher than the US dollar since 2006 (with a brief dip to about AUD60c/US$1 for about half a year 2008, also known as the GFC - I remember as I was buying BattleTech minis at the time and was very aware of the sudden shift in exchange rates).

Now we all accept import duties and shipping and whatnot. That's fine - we live half a world away from where these things get made - but the sheer disparity in prices is alarming.

There are plenty of companies that keep prices consistent. There's no reason GW couldn't do the same (shipping costs notwithstanding).

Do you get the feeling that GW see Australia and NZ as an ongoing experiment to see how far they can push their prices before demand starts to drop? I think they'd love it if the Brits, Europeans and North Americans paid southern hemisphere prices, but they're afraid to push it all at once. A 40%+ rise overnight would get people's attention, and even GW probably lacks the balls/stupidity for that move.

I stopped buying direct from GW some years ago, so I haven't been paying close attention. Did Australian/NZ prices go up last year in the annual price rise? If not, this could be an indicator that GW thinks these countries have reached maximum price, at least in the short term. That's pure speculation however, and if GW did raise its prices here, its also invalid. But like I said, I stopped paying attention to GW some time ago, so some information on this would be useful.

My next challenge will be building a Warriors of Chaos army without buying a single new model from GW; I'll need the grossly overpiced army book (NZ$98, or approx GBP52) but that's it. Avatars of War, Gamezone, Hell Dorado and second-hand look like the better options.

Flash Felix wrote:
Do you get the feeling that GW see Australia and NZ as an ongoing experiment to see how far they can push their prices before demand starts to drop?

Positively. The fact that we didn't get the full price hike last year pretty much proves it. It shows they've hit a ceiling that consumers won't pay above for some products already. The fact that other countries got the full hike means they might be trying to normalise them at our level. We'll see when this years hike comes in. If we get the full increase, the ceiling has been raised again by an influx of new customers. If we don't, but other countries do, we're the 'standard' they want prices at, and sales haven't increased enough to raise the ceiling.

AesSedai wrote:I feel I've got to make a point here. For those of you who think minimum wage is the root cause of pricing disparity, you really need to take off your blinders. Let's look at Japan--there is no more illustrative example in the world. In Japan, those who pay full GW retail pay more than anyone else. Guess what...minimum wage in Tokyo (highest m. wage in the country) is $8.37 USD. Minimum wage is a silly argument.

H.B.M.C. wrote:And Brazil, where a Tactical Squad is AUD$51 (to Oz’s AUD$60), their minimum wage is 1/4th that of the US. The US price for a Tac squad is AUD$35.

Minimum wage is not the contributing factor people make it out to be.

Even if minimum wage was a factor I really don't understand how that is our problem and not GWs.

If they want to sell something for $60 here and $35 in the US fine, but we are under no obligation to buy from here. If we can buy it cheaper elsewhere we will, that's capitalism. They have done nothing to foster any sort of customer loyalty so we have no incentive to pay more.
Them shutting down international sales is and as good as admitting they are intentionally trying to milk us for as much as they can.

Do you want to know the really galling part about the huge disparity?

When I ordered things from GW Japan, they shipped from the UK anyway! Ordering from GW Japan had me paying local shipping rates, but from GW UK would have me paying exorbitant fees even though they were both going to be sent from the same place.

Some reading on the subject:

http://www.choice.com.au/itpricing

http://www.ausgamers.com/features/read/3256952

 BolingbrokeIV wrote:
I know for a fact it was over double the uk minimum wage when the embargo was brought in because I remember having a similar conversation back then. Check the link I just gave you and find a historic conversion if you want.

Arguing that the minimum wage does or does not have an effect is fair enough but trying to say that the Australian minimum wage is not much higher than it is in the US and Uk and hasn't been throughout the time of this issue has existed is just plain false.

The US minimum wage is lower than the UK, though tell me why stuff costs more in the US than it does the UK?

Done a a comparison on both Warmachine and GW products, the US prices have been three pounds more expensive compared to the UK.

Sorry, but you're minimum wage argument isn't as strong as you like to think it is.

There is quite a bit of speculation in this thread that is pretty easily verified or debunked.

For instance, revenues in Australia over time are actually quite stable:
2009 - 9286 : 2010 - 10795 : 2011 - 10630 : 2012 - 11328 : 2013 (1/2 year) - 5597

And operating profits have reversed their slide:
2009 - 786: 2010 - 654 : 2011 - (406) : 2012 - (735) : 2013 (1/2 year) 342

It would seem via this cursory analysis that whatever they did is working, profits are up on stable revenues.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I'm not even convinced closing GW stores in Oz is a good idea. At the height of GW popularity in Oz, the stores would have been a huge source of revenue because they were packed day after day and the counter was running almost constantly many nights of the week. Granted, it was a different time, but it's hard to say keeping stores open is the problem when I personally think they were previously making good money off stores.

Not as much as you'd think. Only one or two stores every really did well. The one that did the best is the one nearest to me that's still open, but is in the middle of fething nowhere compared to where it used to be and I can't imagine that it's abysmal new location is doing it any favours.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I'm not even convinced closing GW stores in Oz is a good idea. At the height of GW popularity in Oz, the stores would have been a huge source of revenue because they were packed day after day and the counter was running almost constantly many nights of the week. Granted, it was a different time, but it's hard to say keeping stores open is the problem when I personally think they were previously making good money off stores.

Not as much as you'd think. Only one or two stores every really did well. The one that did the best is the one nearest to me that's still open, but is in the middle of fething nowhere compared to where it used to be and I can't imagine that it's abysmal new location is doing it any favours.

Jack_Death wrote:
There is quite a bit of speculation in this thread that is pretty easily verified or debunked.

For instance, revenues in Australia over time are actually quite stable:
2009 - 9286 : 2010 - 10795 : 2011 - 10630 : 2012 - 11328 : 2013 (1/2 year) - 5597

And operating profits have reversed their slide:
2009 - 786: 2010 - 654 : 2011 - (406) : 2012 - (735) : 2013 (1/2 year) 342

It would seem via this cursory analysis that whatever they did is working, profits are up on stable revenues.

I am not sure how posting a loss 2 years in a row would be considered stable revenues. The half year results are irrelevant as they will not reflect the EoY numbers in any significant way. Half year results for 2012 showed a loss of £277,000 and the EoY results managed to tack another £458,000 in losses onto that. If this year ends up doing the same, it would wipe out the half year gain and put it in the hole by a couple hundred thousand pounds - they might go up a touch too though...in either case, without knowing what happens in terms of sales and bills that come due (shipping contracts that are paid out at end of year for example) - you can not say that two years of losses are stable revenues or upward moving profits.

In regards to the op's question regarding why the Forge World postage is cheaper, that's an easy one it's because anyone in the uk who orders from them get's robbed blind and subsidises the worldwide shipping. Also you pay the VAT when you should not which also covers any remaining disparity.

Just checked the pricing between Aus and Can, SOME PRODUCTS have a more align pricing now. Assuming 1USD=1CAD=1AUS

Deathwing Terminators
70CAD/75AUS

Ravenwing Dark Talon (Flyer)
90CAD/81AUS

Land Speeder Vengence
80CAD/85AUS

Jack_Death wrote:
It would seem via this cursory analysis that whatever they did is working, profits are up on stable revenues.

Yes, they improved profits by moving out of high rent stores and laying off 3 quarters of their staff.

I am quite sure that posting a loss (lack of profit) has no direct bearing on whether top line sales are steady (similar revenues). They are quite distinct and separate numbers, and if you look a bit more carefully at my post (and/or do not completely misinterpret what you are reading) you'll see what I mean. As to the half-year numbers meaning nothing - what? They mean that the first half of the year this year has been better than the first half of the year last year. Full stop. This indicates that profits have reversed their multi-quarter slide. Full stop. You believe this is temporary - ok.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

Jack_Death wrote:
There is quite a bit of speculation in this thread that is pretty easily verified or debunked.

For instance, revenues in Australia over time are actually quite stable:
2009 - 9286 : 2010 - 10795 : 2011 - 10630 : 2012 - 11328 : 2013 (1/2 year) - 5597

And operating profits have reversed their slide:
2009 - 786: 2010 - 654 : 2011 - (406) : 2012 - (735) : 2013 (1/2 year) 342

It would seem via this cursory analysis that whatever they did is working, profits are up on stable revenues.

I am not sure how posting a loss 2 years in a row would be considered stable revenues. The half year results are irrelevant as they will not reflect the EoY numbers in any significant way. Half year results for 2012 showed a loss of £277,000 and the EoY results managed to tack another £458,000 in losses onto that. If this year ends up doing the same, it would wipe out the half year gain and put it in the hole by a couple hundred thousand pounds - they might go up a touch too though...in either case, without knowing what happens in terms of sales and bills that come due (shipping contracts that are paid out at end of year for example) - you can not say that two years of losses are stable revenues or upward moving profits.

Jack_Death wrote:
As to the half-year numbers meaning nothing - what? They mean that the first half of the year this year has been better than the first half of the year last year. Full stop

Only if you actually compare them to the first half figures for last year. You've only shown previous full-year figures.

I did not paste the entire table. Here you go:

Current Period Year Ago Period Last Year
Region Revenue Operating Profit Operating Margin +/- Revenue Operating Profit Operating Margin Revenue Operating Profit Operating Margin
UK $15,613.00 $2,324.00 14.89% 3.97% $14,818.00 $1,618.00 10.92% $31,648.00 $4,835.00 15.28%
EUR $19,628.00 $2,638.00 13.44% 2.38% $20,382.00 $2,254.00 11.06% $40,757.00 $4,000.00 9.81%
NA $18,076.00 $1,547.00 8.56% -0.70% $15,419.00 $1,427.00 9.25% $33,621.00 $4,211.00 12.52%
Australia $5,597.00 $342.00 6.11% 11.21% $5,437.00 $(277.00) -5.09% $11,328.00 $(735.00) -6.49%
Export $810.00 $202.00 24.94% 12.70% $801.00 $98.00 12.23% $1,700.00 $89.00 5.24%
Asia $1,051.00 $32.00 3.04% 77.98% $818.00 $(613.00) -74.94% $1,737.00 $(624.00) -35.92%
All Other $6,682.00 $3,429.00 51.32% 4.35% $5,042.00 $2,368.00 46.97% $10,218.00 $4,732.00 46.31% Forge World, Black Library, etc.

 insaniak wrote:

Jack_Death wrote:
As to the half-year numbers meaning nothing - what? They mean that the first half of the year this year has been better than the first half of the year last year. Full stop

Only if you actually compare them to the first half figures for last year. You've only shown previous full-year figures.

It's easy to make multiple store closures and layoffs look like 'growth' when all you're looking at is a final figure.

QFT, I am not making any assertions to the contrary. Heck, I'm not making any assertions at all, I've simply pasted financial statement data.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It's easy to make multiple store closures and layoffs look like 'growth' when all you're looking at is a final figure.

I'm not sure if this is on topic or not, but did anyone else notice its now a $60 dollar minimum to get free shipping here in Aus now if you buy directly from GW? I don't buy from them but I was checking out the site and that I thought was a curious little figure as I used to make small orders for paints and things totalling up to the before price of $30 to get the free shipping.

Also, as a young man who is trying to save up for a car and university, GW prices and the sheer price difference between EU, US and Aus has driven me of late to either not purchase any models at all, to buy one or two boxes every 6-8 months off an online distributor, or to turn to places like FW where I can get a decent price shockingly enough.

 Marine_With_Heart wrote:
I'm not sure if this is on topic or not, but did anyone else notice its now a $60 dollar minimum to get free shipping here in Aus now if you buy directly from GW? I don't buy from them but I was checking out the site and that I thought was a curious little figure as I used to make small orders for paints and things totalling up to the before price of $30 to get the free shipping.

Also, as a young man who is trying to save up for a car and university, GW prices and the sheer price difference between EU, US and Aus has driven me of late to either not purchase any models at all, to buy one or two boxes every 6-8 months off an online distributor, or to turn to places like FW where I can get a decent price shockingly enough.

Holy you're right!

 jonolikespie wrote:

 Marine_With_Heart wrote:
I'm not sure if this is on topic or not, but did anyone else notice its now a $60 dollar minimum to get free shipping here in Aus now if you buy directly from GW? I don't buy from them but I was checking out the site and that I thought was a curious little figure as I used to make small orders for paints and things totalling up to the before price of $30 to get the free shipping.

Also, as a young man who is trying to save up for a car and university, GW prices and the sheer price difference between EU, US and Aus has driven me of late to either not purchase any models at all, to buy one or two boxes every 6-8 months off an online distributor, or to turn to places like FW where I can get a decent price shockingly enough.

Holy you're right!

To be fair, this is basically 'buy something to get free shipping' anyway.

I know at least 6 months ago, possible almost up to a year ago, GW increased their "buy x amount to get free shipping" here in the states from 30 to 50. So it doesn't seem too far fetched that they would do the same to you guys.

 -Loki- wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:

 Marine_With_Heart wrote:
I'm not sure if this is on topic or not, but did anyone else notice its now a $60 dollar minimum to get free shipping here in Aus now if you buy directly from GW? I don't buy from them but I was checking out the site and that I thought was a curious little figure as I used to make small orders for paints and things totalling up to the before price of $30 to get the free shipping.

Also, as a young man who is trying to save up for a car and university, GW prices and the sheer price difference between EU, US and Aus has driven me of late to either not purchase any models at all, to buy one or two boxes every 6-8 months off an online distributor, or to turn to places like FW where I can get a decent price shockingly enough.

Holy you're right!

To be fair, this is basically 'buy something to get free shipping' anyway.

True, the saddest part about this is it's still free shipping on a tac squad.
And if I am being honest this won't affect me in the slightest, but it still comes off as a jerk move on behalf of GW at best. At worst their AU sales have fallen so far that they are forced into this as part of their 'raise prices and lower costs to cover out asses' policy.