Bit inspired by all the KS and KS comments recently, should newer miniature companies try to avoid metal and go for plastics?
With all the recent KS and other newer miniature lines, some making metal miniatures (resin too) and others making plastic, I am wondering what is the general opinion about what materials people make miniatures out of in this 'new generation' of wargaming miniatures.
I suppose though dakka is a bit baised towards one side. In quite a few of the topics in the news people have expressed their distaste in metal and clamor for plastics, very rarely the opposite. And there seems to also be a bit more liking towards hard plastic than other types
I dig metal and resin. Whatever Finecast stuff is isn't too bad in my book. But that's more for static pieces that I like to mostly look at or present more than play.
I can understand that plastics seem more practical for armies and the customization that is called for in some of these armies in order to be competitive.
While I wouldn't like to see the abandonment of producing metal figs, I think it would be to the benefit of newer companies, when starting out, to provide something more manageable like plastic... once they hit it big maybe they can do showy metal/resin pieces.
lord_blackfang wrote: Correct. There is no excuse for doing metal miniatures anymore if small Kickstarter companies can go full plastic.
There are good reasons to make things in metal even when plastic is affordable. The advantages of plastic (lightweight, easier to work with) come at a cost to detail and casting quality. Kickstarters aren't appropriate for everything and won't always work, so many small companies are taking on a very big risk by investing in plastic casting moulds. A lot of smaller companies are really small, it's a niche hobby.
lord_blackfang wrote: Correct. There is no excuse for doing metal miniatures anymore if small Kickstarter companies can go full plastic.
There are good reasons to make things in metal even when metal is affordable. The advantages of plastic (lightweight, easier to work with) come at a cost to detail and casting quality. Kickstarters aren't appropriate for everything and won't always work, so many small companies are taking on a very big risk by investing in plastic casting moulds. A lot of smaller companies are really small, it's a niche hobby.
Also, plastic isn't that affordable. Take Empire of the Dead, for example. They intend to release 79 individual miniatures, several vehicles and up to a dozen Kickstarter exclusives. How much do you reckon plastic moulds for all that would cost? A bit more than the ca £60k they have in the KS right now, I'd wager. For something as niche as Victorian steampunk, going plastic just isn't an option.
I think metal is great, the problem is that it's an expensive material in the long term. Plastic is a cheap material in the long term...but it's only cost effective when you're able to sell thousands of casts of the mould that you made.
Molds for metal castings are a lot cheaper and a lot faster to make. They are made from rubber, and can be made by most folks with a little bit of training.
Resinous plastics can also be made with a relatively inexpensive mold, though both waste and QA become serious matters, and worse, are in opposition each to each.
Molds for injection plastics are very expensive, being made from steel, and time consuming to make.
From what I gather from the Reaper forums a skilled technician that is qualified to make those steel molds pulls down around $150,000 US per annum. So, most often, the mold making will be work for hire. GW can afford to keep such a professional on staff, but it is not an option for, well, pretty much anyone else.
So... which material to aim for depends on quantity produced - I was quite happy with the Stonehaven releases in metal. I was quite happy with the Mantic releases that are coming out in plastic. I am NOT pleased with the resins coming out from GW, largely because of piss-poor QA, but am quite happy, for the most part, with the GW injection plastics. (Not buying them - too darned expensive, but no regular complaints aside from price. Though I really do not like the style of a lot of their recent releases.)
I think that a mini company should strive to sell models that can be afforded by the producer and satisfy the customer.
Plastic's very much a luxury, not an industry standard, in my opinion. I do like plastic, but I want an affordable quality miniature that doesn't endanger the producer's business first and foremost
It doesn't always have to be hard sprue plastic, either.
All of Mantic's KoW Kickstarter output (except maybe the character models? I don't really remember) will be in the cheaper sprue-less plastic. That suits me just fine. Even though I would prefer "proper" plastic.
A lot of companies are doing plastic/resin on the cheap too. Reaper Bones, Trollforged, Black Scorpion, etc.
I'll stick with Freebooter Miniatures metal line, since I'm heavily invested in it already. But I'll not start collecting anymore new games or whatnot that's not some form of plastic. It's just too much of an expensive hassle.
ammp wrote: The fact you can get a high quality 3d printer for under £2,000 now producing plastics to order for a fair price, plastics are the way forward.
Really, well, and truly not germaine at the current time - the time taken to produce a model using a 3D printer, at the current state of the art, prohibits that method from actually having much of an impact.
The quality produced, again at state of the art, also precludes using it for any finely detailed items.
That said - for much terrain and some vehicles a solid free form fabricator is viable, and will eventually become something that miniatures companies must keep an eye on.
The state of the art is constantly advancing, but it just is not there yet - but close enough for GW to start issuing C&D requests....
For me, the most important step the industry can take is to produce affordable rank-and-file that I want to own. Any company that works exclusively in metal - or in many restics - is incapable of achieving that step, and so I have no real desire to help them succeed.
That's short sighted, many smaller companies need to start somewhere and have a successful range and money in the bank before changing to plastic. Expecting them to just churn out masses of plastics is silly, as is the general phobia of metal miniatures that seems to becoming more common. All these plastic wargames models appearing is a recent trend, some people expect too much.
Howard A Treesong wrote: That's short sighted, many smaller companies need to start somewhere and have a successful range and money in the bank before changing to plastic.
True, but I'm not going to give someone money in the hopes that they are one of the few that make the change and not one of the dozens that don't. Hell, Mantic was making models in proper plastic, then backslid to restic at double the price.
If they can afford to do it, then they should, IMO. With that said, I understand it's expensive and I have no problem with resin, or even metal models, especially if they're small-scale skirmish games.
I have no problem with metal minis, provided they're quality sculpts, and there's enough diversity in the range to avoid repetition (since it's so much harder to convert them).
It really depends on the minis that they are producing. If they're producing multi-part rank and file models that are intended to be fielded en-masse, or character models that are intended to be customisable, then certainly plastic is the way to go.
Metal comes into its own for 'character pieces'... The sort of models produced by companies like Hasslefree and Studio McVey's limited editions really belong in metal or resin for the extra detail.
insaniak wrote: It really depends on the minis that they are producing. If they're producing multi-part rank and file models that are intended to be fielded en-masse, or character models that are intended to be customisable, then certainly plastic is the way to go.
Metal comes into its own for 'character pieces'... The sort of models produced by companies like Hasslefree and Studio McVey's limited editions really belong in metal or resin for the extra detail.
This.
A good example is Corvus Belli - they're consistently said they're a metal manufacturing company. Take Infinity - this reflects this attitude perfectly. There's very little reason to buy multiples of a given model unless you want to run a fireteam, and even then, they're made up of 3-5 entirely individual models with different loadouts and abilities, designed to break their link formation and go their separate ways when they need to. So the closest you get are the Fireteam boxes, which are still 4 entirely individually armed models, designed as a box mostly to reduce the SKUs stores need to stock than anything else. It is essentially a range of character peices.
Not to mention model detail. They have some of the finest sci fi models on the market, due to how chock full of detail they are. Undercuts are very obviously used - something plastic just can't do. So not only would they be moving to a system not beneficial to them in terms of cost (individual gamers aren't buying multiples of any models, outside of the odd link team that doesn't have a box yet), but also would be going to a medium that would sacrifice the detail they put into their miniatures.
The game just doesn't make plastic financial viable for Corvus Belli, and plastic is detrimental to the model range anyway. Anima Tactics is another game that fits this method of producing miniatures.
Companies going for mass battle games have reasons to go for plastic, since individual model detail is less important and the cost saving on multiples of of the exact same boxes that will be sold is beneficial.
Another reason to go for metal is that it gives the designers a feat deal more control over the manufacturing process. If one looks at recent plastic success stories from Dreamforge and Wyrd, one sees a process largely outsourced to China and reliant upon a partner (in both cases, Wargames Factory). In the UK, the Perrys and Mantic alike rely upon Renedra (although both are increasingly looking abroad for cheaper sources with greater volume output).
Compare this with little enterprises like Heresy, Hasslefree and Brigade Models. They retain manufacturing control either by in-house casting that gives them full retention of profits, or outsource them to services within reach. It is also a terrific way of petting designs into production with astonishing speed. A traditional sculptor can deliver a design within 24 hours (they usually don't, but it is possible), which can be master cast, moulded and spun within another 48 hours. With metal, it is possible to go from paper to blister in under a week. Not so with plastics.
The exception, though, is plastics of the Privateer Press or Bones style, which are essentially traditional metal castings using new materials. The state of the art is still a bit murky, there, but these products could show old school metal casters a new way ahead.
Every small garage company should start with a 500.000 $ investment to see if they sell 5 boxes or not Boo for the losers who don't have 500.000 $ to burn, boo for the sculptors who hate to avoid undercuts
I'd certainly prefer resin or plastic to metal, that's for sure. I'm not a fan of metal, unless it's the headbanging sort.
On the other hand, there is something more satisfying about picking up and holding a metal miniature. That feeling is nearly completely offset by the feeling you have if you drop it and the paint chips off real bad though.Glue a nickel in the base instead, I say.
I like metal models, as that is what I grew up with. This being said, some companies should consider plastic, as they cannot keep up with demand with metal or resin.
Kroothawk wrote: Every small garage company should start with a 500.000 $ investment to see if they sell 5 boxes or not Boo for the losers who don't have 500.000 $ to burn, boo for the sculptors who hate to avoid undercuts
How did Eccentric Minis and Proxie Models get started? They both produce plastic models for cheap in their own garages, so there's some smoke being blown somewhere by someone in this thread. The only thing keeping Eccentric and proxie from really taking off is experience. Once one of those companies figures out how to design a more efficient sprue and hires a good sculptor, there will be no reason to play this "500,000 dollars" bullcrap card anymore.
Kroothawk wrote: Every small garage company should start with a 500.000 $ investment to see if they sell 5 boxes or not Boo for the losers who don't have 500.000 $ to burn, boo for the sculptors who hate to avoid undercuts
How did Eccentric Minis and Proxie Models get started? They both produce plastic models for cheap in their own garages, so there's some smoke being blown somewhere by someone in this thread. The only thing keeping Eccentric and proxie from really taking off is experience. Once one of those companies figures out how to design a more efficient sprue and hires a good sculptor, there will be no reason to play this "500,000 dollars" bullcrap card anymore.
That figure depends. A good sculptor designing an efficient sprue is well and good, but if they're doing it in their garage, they're shelling out for a plastic injection machine. That's... not cheap in any sense of the word. If they branch out and get someone like Renedra to do it, not only are they not the ones making their own sprue, but they need to work to that companies schedule. Look at the issues Mantic have had - their Forgefather line is a good example. They ended up compromising the quality by using half Kings of War, half Warpath for the infantry models (which is wht they have a cape and short sword - the same cape and short sword as the Kings of War models).
Doing plastic in yourself is expensive. Outsourcing means you give up some control on your project.
Some places have figured out a way to do actual plastic in spin casting machines, like Trollforged - good for them. As far as I know, they haven't let it out how they do it, and while they do do outsourced casting for other people, it's still the same issues as outsourcing it to someone like Renedra.
It all depends what a company think it's capable of. If a company is casting in metal as opposed to plastic then I have to think theres a reason for this.
I like plastic to convert. But I also like the weight behind a metal model. I'm a warmachine player primarily, and I don't think that warjacks feel right in plastic. They're a big lump of metal, and in my opinion I feel that is exactly what they should be.
I was raised on Metal, yung Unz these days!
But i don't realy mind as long as it looks good (although, i don't like resin for slender play pieces, breaks too easy).
I think the plastic vs metal is a case of 'horses for courses' (to use an old english adage)
In support of what has been mentioned, large rank-n-file units should be done in plastic, because it is the most cost-effective method of producing large units with multiple options.
But we should take into account the effect that model count has on a manufacturer's choice with regards to plastic vs metal.
Take small skirmish-size games like Infinity, Bushido, etc, where you typically have <10 models per force. I think in cases where you have a small number of individual models, then metal/resin is the most beneficial medium because the advantages of using plastic don't really balance out (e.g. in the case of Bushido, there are very few 'generic' models and most of them are essentially 'special characters', so there is no real need to produce multi-part plastic models).
However, I will note that it does become cost effective, but only once you reach certain massive scales (i.e. GW/PP/Wyrd) because the sheer volume of sales makes plastic more cost-effective.
Some places have figured out a way to do actual plastic in spin casting machines, like Trollforged - good for them. As far as I know, they haven't let it out how they do it, and while they do do outsourced casting for other people, it's still the same issues as outsourcing it to someone like Renedra.
You mean... a centrifuge? It's how metal miniatures have been cast since, well, almost forever.
ammp wrote: The fact you can get a high quality 3d printer for under £2,000 now producing plastics to order for a fair price, plastics are the way forward.
Really, well, and truly not germaine at the current time - the time taken to produce a model using a 3D printer, at the current state of the art, prohibits that method from actually having much of an impact.
The quality produced, again at state of the art, also precludes using it for any finely detailed items.
That said - for much terrain and some vehicles a solid free form fabricator is viable, and will eventually become something that miniatures companies must keep an eye on.
The state of the art is constantly advancing, but it just is not there yet - but close enough for GW to start issuing C&D requests....
The Auld Grump
Erm, what now? How can the technology not be up to making finely detailed items when people are using 3D printing to produce their in-scale prototype and master models from the computer renders? It may not yet be practical for a company to just buy 3D printers and make all their models that way, but that's down to the time to produce per-model still being higher than traditional casting, and that won't be the case for much longer.
As for metal vs plastic, the way I see it, plastic is preferable in most situations, and in those few it isn't(extremely detailed character models, limited production runs etc etc), there's no excuse at all not to use resin. It's almost as resilient, in some scenarios moreso; it's easier to convert; it's easier to properly prep; it's not significantly more expensive, especially if you resort to restic rather than traditional hard resin. And on that last point, before anyone mentions the potential for metal to be reused in cases of failed casts; first, most failed casts are not random events, they happened because somebody made a mistake, wasn't paying attention, or because the company is using substandard equipment, so an efficient operation with well-trained staff can substantially minimise the need to resort to reusing metal/throwing out resin in any case; further, assuming the company is taking steps to avoid miscasts(which they should be, regardless of what material they use), I question whether the money you save from reusing materials would be substantially more valuable than the labour your staff would have to expend in order to go through the process of reusing the metal.
Erm, what now? How can the technology not be up to making finely detailed items when people are using 3D printing to produce their in-scale prototype and master models from the computer renders? It may not yet be practical for a company to just buy 3D printers and make all their models that way, but that's down to the time to produce per-model still being higher than traditional casting, and that won't be the case for much longer.
Any printer that can print with PERFECT detail is going to be well out of the price range of any hobbyist, and a lot of small companies. All but the most expensive printers have visible stepping in the part they create, and that must be dealt with before making it into a usable miniature (usually by using MEK to smooth the surface).
-Skirmish, vs Mass Battle,
-Small Niche game, vs game with wider appeal
-Scale issues
Right now there is alot of push toward plastic because it's way the big-dogs are going and it's what most recent GW'ers have grown up with. The beneifits of the various materials, monpose sculpts vs multipart poseables, etc have all been hashed out before, so I'm going to skip over that.
What it boils down to is that a smart company is going to have to look very closely at the product and make some sales projections to see if plastic, metal, vinyl, resin or resi/fine/trollcast-ic, or some other material is going to best serve their product and their customers.
-A company making a charachter driven, warband scale skirmish game (Like Infinity or somesuch) would be silly to invest in plastic. Metal or resin are going to be the preferred and most financially sound choices. Likewise a company making 15mm scale troops is going to go metal all the way as metal costs are exponentially less for smaller figures.
-A company making a mass battle game is going to want to look at the feasiblity of plastic for their line troops.
etc, etc..
There are real barriers to plastic, and while it's good to want to give the customer exactly what they want (plastic is popular right now) it would be silly for a company to discount other materials without consideration just because the trend is moving that way
BobtheInquisitor wrote:[
How did Eccentric Minis and Proxie Models get started? They both produce plastic models for cheap in their own garages, so there's some smoke being blown somewhere by someone in this thread. The only thing keeping Eccentric and proxie from really taking off is experience. Once one of those companies figures out how to design a more efficient sprue and hires a good sculptor, there will be no reason to play this "500,000 dollars" bullcrap card anymore.
Right now most companies have to outsource plastic production and that is expensive. 3d printing is coming down in price, but a printer that prints as nice as a cast-model is very expensive and hard to do at the production scale necessary for miniature distribution.
As for Proxie, but he is pretty much the exception that proves the rule. Go watch his video on UTube There aren't alot of folks in the miniatures world with the techincal know-how to cobble together their own plastic moulding system from surplus equipment. Further, I use and like proxie products, but the level of detail he's been able to achieve just isn't up to a level that will let him cast 28mm miniature figures at a standard of detail that meets the current state-of-miniatures. He's making progress, but right now it's pretty much limited to 15mm vehilcles (Fairly basic in design) bases and some terrain items.
As For Eccentric minis, they are simple and functional, but again, the detail isn't there yet.
Kroothawk wrote: Every small garage company should start with a 500.000 $ investment to see if they sell 5 boxes or not Boo for the losers who don't have 500.000 $ to burn, boo for the sculptors who hate to avoid undercuts
How did Eccentric Minis and Proxie Models get started? They both produce plastic models for cheap in their own garages, so there's some smoke being blown somewhere by someone in this thread. The only thing keeping Eccentric and proxie from really taking off is experience. Once one of those companies figures out how to design a more efficient sprue and hires a good sculptor, there will be no reason to play this "500,000 dollars" bullcrap card anymore.
While I tend to agree in theory, in today's world where you have a lot of people who are unable to check their own oil - let alone replace it...setting up and running industrial machinery in one's own back yard isn't within the abilities of many would be miniature designers (not to mention the requisite space requirements). If they were technically inclined though, they could get that ball rolling for much less than $500,000 or even $50,000 for that matter.
That said - there is really no reason that a new company should set its eyes on plastics. Beyond the lack of market information that one should have before making those large decisions (should they look to tie up several years worth of profit in a mold that might only appeal to a small portion of their customers) and the technical limitations of plastics (undercuts being the most obvious limit), small companies...especially startups have plenty of reason to stick with metal or resin.
For the investment in a single mold which might give you 3 multipart plastic figures, they could roll out several complete lines of figures. Metal also allows them to build miniature lines with money from between the sofa cushions. A company like Hinterlands which has slowly been building a range of figures over the course of several years using "extra" money a few figures every few months has allowed them to avoid going into the red (at least significantly). Now they actually have a pretty good sized range, for a very niche within a niche category of miniatures.
You also have a lot of games that it just doesn't make sense to do plastics in - at least not from the start. Skirmish games, where everything is a character model. Niche games, where the market would take decades to actually pay off the molds at reasonable price points. Those little side games are often the place where new innovations happen that then get bundled into larger games down the road. They are small and cheap to finance, so creators are more likely to try things which might be risky.
Now, I do think that older companies should really be making the shift towards plastic - especially for core units. They have got a fairly good understanding of what sells and what doesn't from within their range. They have expierance managing logistics issues. They might even have a little bit of capital saved up (or at least something that can be used as collateral) to help finance their new project. For them, a Kickstarter campaign to get them over the big humps is a great thing. Companies like Corvus Belli and Privateer Press would really benefit from hard plastics for the core troops for each faction (and maybe stretch goals for the better selling special units).
I much prefer plastic to work with, but for a lot of companies it's just not realistic to produce everything in a hard plastic similar to GW. They'll never sell enough to make back the cost of the molds.
Grey Templar wrote: That is one issue with plastic vs metal. Its much cheaper to do metal moulds.
And this is why plastic is only better for model runs you know will sell a lot. The initial investment for a plastic mold is high enough that you need a high sales volume to offset it. If you are doing models that won't sell multiples to people, it's generally going to be better as metal or resin simply due to the cost of the mold. Even when going through someone like renedra, which is why you see even places like Mantic do initial runs in metal sometimes.
Erm, what now? How can the technology not be up to making finely detailed items when people are using 3D printing to produce their in-scale prototype and master models from the computer renders? It may not yet be practical for a company to just buy 3D printers and make all their models that way, but that's down to the time to produce per-model still being higher than traditional casting, and that won't be the case for much longer.
Any printer that can print with PERFECT detail is going to be well out of the price range of any hobbyist, and a lot of small companies. All but the most expensive printers have visible stepping in the part they create, and that must be dealt with before making it into a usable miniature (usually by using MEK to smooth the surface).
Exactly - those 3D printers that run for 2,000 GBP are just not up to the task, and there are plenty that run upwards of 15,000 GBP where the stepping would be noticeable.
That said - there are things where those steps on edges and ridges just won't matter: Terrain and some vehicles being high on the list.
By 'not much longer'... I would suspect in the next ten years, but not the next five, it will be viable. I'd love to be wrong though.
SFF has been around since the nineties that I know of, the tech is getting less expensive and the output more detailed, but it is not there yet... yet....
And some really big ones are being used to make buildings now - not tabletop terrain, but actual buildings....
I honestly don't even want 3D printing to take over. There's something about unboxing a new kit, clipping it all off, and trying to find ways to convert it that just won't be the same wheyou just pose a 3D model and hit print.
Also, I'm far more interested in what Modern Meadow is doing. 3D printing organic substances? Assuming they can get the tase right, I'd be all over the ability to print a rib eye to throw on the BBQ.
I think you are ignoring the historical side of the hobby. Quality hard plastic miniatures are a relatively recent invention. I can buy/paint a top quality metal 15mm historical army for .70 per model, down to under .30 if I don't mind less finely sculpted figures. 28mm historical manufacturers wouldn't DREAM of trying to extort the prices GW charges as a matter of course - Perry plastics are under $1 per model and metal models are about 2$. Historical miniatures deal in the rank-and-file almost exclusively, which kind of invalidates your argument. The manufacturers most certainly CAN make affordable, well sculpted models in either plastic or metal. Why they don't is a different question.
AlexHolker wrote: For me, the most important step the industry can take is to produce affordable rank-and-file that I want to own. Any company that works exclusively in metal - or in many restics - is incapable of achieving that step, and so I have no real desire to help them succeed.
Like others have said, metal is great for skirmish games, where the quality of the sculpting is very high and there is very little conversion. Infinity would be the perfect example.
For a game like 40k, or any 28mm where conversion is expected and encouraged, I think plastic is king these days. And I'd much rather have a normal 28mm sized fig in metal rather than resin, assuming the sculpt is high quality and wouldn't get in the way of conversion or be a pain to assemble. I really hate forgeworld resin, but love their sculpts of course.
15mm is kind of in between. I love plastic for 15mm but metal has the advantage of being more sturdy.
They all do different things, differently. I certainly never want to see metal phased out completely, and GW doing so in favour of Finecast was truly a sad day and the end of my purchasing GW character models.
Malifaux. I have enjoyed the metal models. Now, this is a game system where there is no option on battle gear. the fact that most minions that you need multiples of (death marshals, Ronan, guild guards, metal gamin, etc....) come in three different molds. So, painting them does not get boring. I have not been a huge fan of the plastics, however, it seems to be growing on me.
Fine cast, need I go on. This stuff sucks.
Plastics a great for systems where converting is allowed by rules. 40k, WHFB, and others.
We're plastic engineers (so obviously very biased) but from what we've seen plastic is the way forward. We think that the models can be massively more detailed and a lot easier to make the CAD for and paint. We use two methods of producing our models. 3D printing and plastic injection.
Plastic injection will be the most sensible option for any company that wants to sell a lot. The problem being, only the big companies can really afford this. The start up costs of producing the CAD and a tool for good quality plastic models can be a massive risk for small businesses. After you go through design and tooling the costs already have the potential to be in 5 figures! If you have the confidence in selling enough of that product to make the start up costs back however plastic injection can be a very profitable thing to do as the costs after making the tool are fairly cheap and the company would basically be paying for the plastic material.
3D printing is new to the industry and at the minute we're all kind of experimenting with it. The idea is that you print off a 3D model in liquid resin from an .stl file. It isn't that cheap of a process but it's not expensive as it sounds. There are no design costs (minus the CAD) and all that needs to be payed for is the 3D printer itself. Plus what it is in price it makes up for in quality and detail. We have an Objet 30 Pro and it's a phenomenal machine. You wouldn't believe some of the detail we can get! He's a link to a rough guide I did of how we use it to make Wargame scenery a month back.
http://tabletopworkshop.blogspot.com/2013/02/producing-3d-printed-searchlight.html
I myself purely believe that metal models have had their time and sooner rather than later all of the big boys will be pretty much plastic dominated with the odd bit of scenery and terrain created by resin and polystyrene Lets face it, wargaming would lose it's heart without the little projects like them!
Anyway. Hope that helps you understand in some way!
dh1992 wrote: Plastic injection will be the most sensible option for any company that wants to sell a lot. The problem being, only the big companies can really afford this.
DreamForge and Wyrd would like to disagree with you. That's why I like it when I see this sort of thing on Kickstarter. Once funded, a good project will usually make back the costs as well as generate at least a small profit. Even if future sales are scarce, at least you're not operating at a loss like normal startups do. Small companies like DreamForge, Studio McVey, Mantic, and even Romeo's Outlaw Miniatures demonstrate that high quality plastic models can be produced and enough sold to make back production costs. Wyrd is a small company producing outstanding plastic kits and they didn't even go the kickstarter route.
Your point about needing to sell a lot is accurate however. I hope distribution can be handled well enough that this stuff finds its way into LFGS and into the hands of customers who need to know that GW is no longer the only game in town.
Small skirmish games should definitly be plastic. Since you play with fewer models, you'll move them around more often. Plastic models don't chip paint that easily. So that's one great bonus for smaller sized games. Also when playing smaller games, terrain can be more rough with less flat surfaces. Metal models always fall and chip if you try and balance them on some hill or uneven terrain piece. Plastic models keep balance much easier. Some skirmish games like Necromunda required alot of modifications which can be near impossible with metal miniatures. Same convertions are easy with plastic.
Plastic models is specially important for larger sized games. There is really a huge difference in weight once you bring an army of 20+ models with a handfull of larger models like heavy beasts, tanks or walkers. For units, plastic gives better opprotunity for posing different parts, while metal models usualy comes with just 2-3 poses for a unit of maybe 10 models. Duplicates are boring not only to paint but also to look at.
When painting, it's much easier to hold up and turn a plastic model. Sometimes when holding a metal model, I just lose the grip for some reason and it falls to the ground, chipping, breaking parts and bending.
Plastic models falling to the floor don't necessarily chip, they don't always break and the rarely bend.
With the high level of detail GW are making plastic models these days, it's a win-win-win situation.
Breotan wrote: DreamForge and Wyrd would like to disagree with you. That's why I like it when I see this sort of thing on Kickstarter.
You mean those small companies that are the fifth best selling tabletop game in USA for several years (Wyrd) or get 200.000$ by crowd funding (DreamForge)? These small companies? Sure, then everyone can do it!
Personally I'm not a fan of metal due to how difficult it is to work with. That said if I liked the mini enough that I wouldn't have to do too much work to it (or non at all) it wouldn't massively put me off. But on that front if I'm using it for gaming metal would definately need to be smaller - large metal models are just too heavy.
With all that said though I have no problem with good quality resin, not the GW finecast stuff (though I've been told it's ok now but I'm still not trusting it enough to buy it) a good quality resin has some real benefits over plastic. The detail can be far better, and it's easy to work with. The only real down side is it tend to be a little more fragile than plastic - but I take care of my minis anyway so I don't find that much of a problem.
Breotan wrote: DreamForge and Wyrd would like to disagree with you. That's why I like it when I see this sort of thing on Kickstarter.
You mean those small companies that are the fifth best selling tabletop game in USA for several years (Wyrd) or get 200.000$ by crowd funding (DreamForge)? These small companies? Sure, then everyone can do it!
There is a point there however, with Kickstarter it is possible that every company "could" go plastic if they so wished - you just kickstart it and you'll find out if it'll sell enough to pay for the plastic back or not. If it doesn't then you simply go with something else safe in the knowledge that the market isn't there for plastic.
That said, as much as I like kickstarter, I imagine that it comes with it's own set of issues, and it might be better for a small/startup to go resin/metal - thats obviously for the company to decide themselves.
I personally think that the majority or miniatures should be in plastic,like when mongoose released starship troopers the majority of it was in metal... So miniatures were hard to convert/assemble.I think GW should release a starship troopers line... I know they could make them faaarrr better than mongoose ever could
Breotan wrote: DreamForge and Wyrd would like to disagree with you. That's why I like it when I see this sort of thing on Kickstarter.
You mean those small companies that are the fifth best selling tabletop game in USA for several years (Wyrd) or get 200.000$ by crowd funding (DreamForge)? These small companies? Sure, then everyone can do it!
Agreed. Wyrd is far from small in the Miniatures world. Also, remember that Dreamforge isn't a raw startup either. They're small, but they had already proven sales record for their troops in metal and their mechs in Resin before they started their kickstarter to get them into plastic.
I'm not going to say that it's impossible for a small company to start with plastic, but it's much more difficult and seems to only be doable by companies making line troops (Wargames Factory, Defiance, Mantic, etc). Companies like Wyrd or Dreamforge start out with metal or resin until they know they have a product that will make back the production costs of plastic.
Baxx wrote: All miniature games should be plastic.
No thanks! I can't imagine how (comparitively) awful some games' figures would be if they tried to make them in plastic. Maybe the technology will be there one day (maybe even in just a few years) but right now metal is the way forward for a certain type of game.
With the high level of detail GW are making plastic models these days, it's a win-win-win situation.
Baxx wrote: All miniature games should be plastic.
Spoiler:
Small skirmish games should definitly be plastic. Since you play with fewer models, you'll move them around more often. Plastic models don't chip paint that easily. So that's one great bonus for smaller sized games. Also when playing smaller games, terrain can be more rough with less flat surfaces. Metal models always fall and chip if you try and balance them on some hill or uneven terrain piece. Plastic models keep balance much easier. Some skirmish games like Necromunda required alot of modifications which can be near impossible with metal miniatures. Same convertions are easy with plastic.
Plastic models is specially important for larger sized games. There is really a huge difference in weight once you bring an army of 20+ models with a handfull of larger models like heavy beasts, tanks or walkers. For units, plastic gives better opprotunity for posing different parts, while metal models usualy comes with just 2-3 poses for a unit of maybe 10 models. Duplicates are boring not only to paint but also to look at.
When painting, it's much easier to hold up and turn a plastic model. Sometimes when holding a metal model, I just lose the grip for some reason and it falls to the ground, chipping, breaking parts and bending.
Plastic models falling to the floor don't necessarily chip, they don't always break and the rarely bend.
With the high level of detail GW are making plastic models these days, it's a win-win-win situation.
Except you completely gloss over the key benefit of metal and resin models - undercuts. Plastic just cannot do this in an injection machine, because the sprue needs to be able to be lifted straight out. Undercuts allow recessed details, such as a head in a hood where the head can curve down the back inside the hood. In an injection molding machine, this wouldn't be possible, because they require sprues to be able to be removed in a single pull. Resin and metal give sharper details than plastic. Both of these are important to people who spend time painting - mushy details are harder to paint, and undercuts give you a better model overall to paint. Yes, it's possible to design around undercuts, but you still don't get the same end result, and you still end up with mushy plastic details.
You mention skirmish games as a good target for plastics due to moving models more regularly - I disagree completely, purely based on a modeling and painting perspective. In a skirmish game, you'll want the best looking models possible, because you don't have many on the table. Which means you'll want to go metal or resin.
Can't answer to Mordheim, Warmachine or Hordes as I'm unfamiliar with the ranges but I was under the impression that the vast majority of the ranges for Necromunda and Blood Bowl were metal. There are plastic models included in the starter boxes for both, but they aren't great models, and go completely against what people generally like about the figures from skirmish games.
Infinity, Hell Dorado and Confrontation are immediate examples of games with miniatures generally regarded as excellent quality that just wouldn't work in plastic, no matter how heavy handed the player who knocks his models over all the time.
Eilif wrote: -A company making a charachter driven, warband scale skirmish game (Like Infinity or somesuch) would be silly to invest in plastic. Metal or resin are going to be the preferred and most financially sound choices. Likewise a company making 15mm scale troops is going to go metal all the way as metal costs are exponentially less for smaller figures.
I would like to point out that your point of "it depends" definitely applies with this statement Malifaux is a character driven, warband scale, skirmish game. All of their new releases since August of last year have all been in plastics, granted they give you incentive to buy the new starter boxes because that's the only way to get the master and his/her totem or to get the 3 minions that come in that box (that you will rarely ever need more than 3 of). It has prevented me from buying some of the start boxes, but that's mostly due to limited funds and not wanting to start a new faction >_<.
Eilif wrote: -A company making a charachter driven, warband scale skirmish game (Like Infinity or somesuch) would be silly to invest in plastic. Metal or resin are going to be the preferred and most financially sound choices. Likewise a company making 15mm scale troops is going to go metal all the way as metal costs are exponentially less for smaller figures.
I would like to point out that your point of "it depends" definitely applies with this statement Malifaux is a character driven, warband scale, skirmish game. All of their new releases since August of last year have all been in plastics, granted they give you incentive to buy the new starter boxes because that's the only way to get the master and his/her totem or to get the 3 minions that come in that box (that you will rarely ever need more than 3 of). It has prevented me from buying some of the start boxes, but that's mostly due to limited funds and not wanting to start a new faction >_<.
True, but as has been pointed out in a few other posts, Wyrd miniatures is not really a "Newer company". They were only able to reach the point of doing plastic after a years of selling ALOT of metal miniatures and growing their Malifaux fanbase considerably. The ability to go strait-to-plastic for a new skirmish game was not possible for Wyrd, and it's not financially feasible option for most other projects/companies.
But if you prefer painting (and glueing) you may prefer metal models as they need such servies over and over again.
Or, if you do it the right way, you only have to assemble metal models once.
Or if you are human (or play against one), mistakes happen and models fall to the ground. Plastics survive. Even without damage or chipping. Metals don't.
Riquende wrote: Can't answer to Mordheim, Warmachine or Hordes as I'm unfamiliar with the ranges but I was under the impression that the vast majority of the ranges for Necromunda and Blood Bowl were metal. There are plastic models included in the starter boxes for both, but they aren't great models, and go completely against what people generally like about the figures from skirmish games.
I think Necromunda, Blood Bowl and Mordheim are sold out and out of production. People use plastic Imperial Guard, plastic Space Marines, plastic Tyranids and various other plastic 40k models for Necromunda. In Blood Bowl and Mordheim most of Fantasy plastic models can be used.
Or if you are human (or play against one), mistakes happen and models fall to the ground. Plastics survive. Even without damage or chipping. Metals don't.
If you let other people mess with your models, I guess that could happen. In 10 years of modeling I've yet to drop a metal model. Maybe I'm lucky?
Or if you are human (or play against one), mistakes happen and models fall to the ground. Plastics survive. Even without damage or chipping. Metals don't.
If you let other people mess with your models, I guess that could happen. In 10 years of modeling I've yet to drop a metal model. Maybe I'm lucky?
Extremely lucky... i've dropped models while holding them with two hands...
I've also and half of a 2000 point blood angels army get flipped off the table when a large person leaned a little bit too much on the corner of the board... You've not seen terror till you see 2 storm ravens shatter into their individual parts...
All Mini's should be plastic indeed. Had to put together the Night Lords Hero last night and it was a chore to pin it. Something that would had taken 3-4 minutes and allow easy converting opportunities with plastic took a half hour. Reminded me of why I hate metal.
-Loki- wrote: Except you completely gloss over the key benefit of metal and resin models - undercuts. Plastic just cannot do this in an injection machine, because the sprue needs to be able to be lifted straight out.
This is not entirely true any more. Some model kit companies are using moulds with sliding sections that allow for some undercuts.
With the technology available to most miniatures companies though, it's reasonably accurate, although with plastic you can get around the problem to a certain extent by just using mulitple parts.
Having said that, it's still not as simple as which gives better detail or which is easier to paint or assemble. Plastic models are a huge investment for a start-up company, and that makes them a huge risk.
They also limit your pool of potential sculptors, since not all sculptors have the particular knowledge required to sculpt plastic-ready models.
Some people's definitions of what a small company is doesn't match reality. Being the "Xth best selling" anything doesn't make you a big business because we're talking about a small piece of an already niche market. Privateer Press, Dreamforge and McVey are all small companies. While PP doesn't do plastics, the other two have and are apparently doing fairly well. No, what small companies need is a solid game plan before making a product and trying to bring it to market. McVey did this with Sedition Wars (BfA). Poots did this with KD:Monster. Dreamforge also had their primary faction planned out prior to their kickstarter. These companies then used Kickstarter to finance their production as well as (essentially) test the market demand for their product. A current example of this process is Outlaw Miniatures, a small company startup with help from Battlefoam. Their current kickstarter is doing very well due to prior planning, solid product line development prior to the kickstarter, and (here it comes) most of the miniatures being released in plastic. So, the argument that a startup can't do this doesn't hold up to reality.
And people making arguments that metal models are superior due to the availability of undercuts need to wake up. GW and Wyrd are doing brilliant models in plastic that look absolutely beautiful on the table. Remember those Space Hulk models? Yea, they're amazing. Did I mention that they're plastic? Yea, complain about eighteen year old Necromunda starter plastics some more. So, what about metal? Well, let's look at Iron Wind Metals. They're a small company that makes metal models, let's see what they've done recently. They raised little more than $30,000 for metal models almost nobody wanted (164 backers). Why? Mostly because the models look like garbage. No excuse for this, really. In fact, for every Infinity model you can hold up to argue your point, I can post one from Grenadier to argue against it.
What a small company needs is more than a sold game plan (though that is extremely important). What they need is experience and a track record.
-McVey had it with "Studio McVey". Also, they're essentially selling a board-game which gains immidiate access to a wider audience than only miniature wargamers.
-Dreamforge had it in that their Leviethan wakers AND Infantry had sold well as metal products before making the switch to plastic.
-Wild West Exodus looks good, but it hasn't happened yet...
As you point out, it's possible in some situations, but it is not right for every new miniature. There are alot of makers who make products for a niche segment of the already small miniatures market. If they're only going to sell a few hundred or thousand of a certain sculpt then plastic just isn't an option for them. Would companies like Dark Sword be able to make their entire line in plastic? I think not. There's just not a big enough market for Samurai Hamsters. Likewise, Reaper is doing alot with Bones (PVC soft plastic), but there's no way they could make their entire line of miniatures with new releases every month in hard plastic, and they are one of the biggest miniatures companies in the world.
I think plastic is great, but expecting everyone to do it is silly. If the only projects that got made were projects that are financially feasible in hard plastic, then alot of great miniatures would never see the light of day.
Lastly, I'm not sure why you'd hold a 20 year grenadier model up against a recent infinity model. That doesn't make much sense.
I may be the oddball here, but I actually prefer metal models. For a game the scale of 40k I'd say plastic because of the shear size. For skirmish level games however I much prefer metal due to the weight, feeling of substance, and illusion of metal value.
I heard their was issue with the malifaux initial run, but while they look cool they have a lot of flaws and gapping.
Harriticus wrote: All Mini's should be plastic indeed. Had to put together the Night Lords Hero last night and it was a chore to pin it. Something that would had taken 3-4 minutes and allow easy converting opportunities with plastic took a half hour. Reminded me of why I hate metal.
I think that's because GW uses adamantium to cast metal minis. I pin the arms on my hybrid Enforcers, and the metal Mantic uses is almost as soft as the lead alloy that used to be used in the olden days.
BlueDagger wrote: I may be the oddball here, but I actually prefer metal models. For a game the scale of 40k I'd say plastic because of the shear size. For skirmish level games however I much prefer metal due to the weight, feeling of substance, and illusion of metal value.
I heard their was issue with the malifaux initial run, but while they look cool they have a lot of flaws and gapping.
Initial run being "released at GenCon" since then, I've seen "almost" every plastic they've come out with (Haven't gotten a chance to see Burt Jebson or Izamu up close), but they seem to have fixed it. Now they just need to give us better contact points to the bases lol I've got a depleted that's standing on a point smaller than a pinpoint...
Though I'm with you for the small scale games and metal. All of my plastic Malifaux stuff (with the exception of my Guild Riflemen) are on base inserts to give the models some weight, also helps if I drop the model because the base tends to hit the ground instead of the model
Izamu is excellent. He is an amazing model who loses nothing when stood next to metal models. The only undercut issue on the model can be cleaned up with a small file faster than it would take to pin a single joint on a metal model. And he is very easy to convert.
It seems that like with model kits there is a gradation on difficulty when modeling, so plastic is for beginners (and lazy modelers ), resin is for intermediate modelers and Metal is for the rockers! oops i mean the veteran modelers
Jehan-reznor wrote: It seems that like with model kits there is a gradation on difficulty when modeling, so plastic is for beginners (and lazy modelers ), resin is for intermediate modelers and Metal is for the rockers! oops i mean the veteran modelers
That really depends on the models.
Where metal excels is with single-part or small-part-count models, where the sculptor can go to town with detailing or posing without having to worry about how the model will come out of the mould.
And it doesn't take a lot of modelling experience to work with single-part metal models. Hell, it's where most people my age or older would have started out.
ammp wrote: The fact you can get a high quality 3d printer for under £2,000 now producing plastics to order for a fair price, plastics are the way forward.
ROFL keep smokin that meth man, its some real janky gak you got there if you think anything you just said is true.
The "high quality" printer you refer to at that price isnt good enough to do the job you want it to do, its also too slow for production.
Anyway, plastics are a bad idea for 99% of companies out there. The current trend is small skirmish games with a dozen minis per side, you're never going to see a return on investment that way and it doesnt really make much sense since the cost to the customer will be higher as a result rather than lower.
Its also eXtremely complicated to do plastic minis. Sculpting molding and casting metal minis is mostly art, doing the same in plastic is mostly engineering... even the sculpting phase requires engineering know-how to know what is technically feasible and what isnt, where undercuts are feasible and where they arent, most sculptors dont have that knowledge and you basically have to go back and forth with the mold maker to alter the sculpt for final production. Even with sliding core molds (which are ridiculously expensive) you still have shape and design limits to consider.
Small companies like DreamForge, Studio McVey, Mantic, and even Romeo's Outlaw Miniatures demonstrate that high quality plastic models can be produced and enough sold to make back production costs. Wyrd is a small company producing outstanding plastic kits and they didn't even go the kickstarter route.
Dont confuse production with profit. None of those companies have fully paid off their production costs (except for maybe mcvey, also from ehat ive seen mantic quit the plastic injection and went to the much cheaper restic method) and are shouldering a lot of the debt themselves, also all of those , possibly with the exception of dreamforge, are established company with existing revenue streams.
So i will weigh in and share costs as some of you have no idea what your talking about. As someone who produces minis and has looked at plastics it's just not viable unless you have money to burn. When i was quoted for plastics they wanted close to $30k per mould. Being a box would have two moulds in it and would retail close to $35 that would mean i would have to sell around 1700 units to break even. That is just not viable for new companies. Now if i did metal i run close to $1000 in costs to hit profit(that counts production and distribution). Resin is around the same price.
Jehan-reznor wrote: It seems that like with model kits there is a gradation on difficulty when modeling, so plastic is for beginners (and lazy modelers ), resin is for intermediate modelers and Metal is for the rockers! oops i mean the veteran modelers
That really depends on the models.
Where metal excels is with single-part or small-part-count models, where the sculptor can go to town with detailing or posing without having to worry about how the model will come out of the mould.
And it doesn't take a lot of modelling experience to work with single-part metal models. Hell, it's where most people my age or older would have started out.
I agree, but the way people react to metal models, it is like they see it that way.
There is one advantage metal has over plastic. If there is a miscast in metal you just throw it back into the melter. Recycling your raw materials is a benefit in this case. Did a bit of spin casting in my youth.
But what is important is the price of starting up. The start up costs for working with metal is almost at garage level prices. IMHO Even though I am so very pro metal, for reasons on how positive they are viewed by John Q Public over the years, I also understand what the customer would want. If the company can become financially stable (generally after 5 years) and known for their quality works they could transition from metal to plastic/resin/whatever the market will bear. And I see no problem with that.
Riquende wrote: Infinity, Hell Dorado and Confrontation are immediate examples of games with miniatures generally regarded as excellent quality that just wouldn't work in plastic, no matter how heavy handed the player who knocks his models over all the time.
Wyrd has already proved this assertion wrong with their moving Malifaux to plastic.
Jehan-reznor wrote: It seems that like with model kits there is a gradation on difficulty when modeling, so plastic is for beginners (and lazy modelers ), resin is for intermediate modelers and Metal is for the rockers! oops i mean the veteran modelers
I think resin is actually the medium of choice for "advanced" or veteran modelers. Resin holds crisp detail far better than metal or plastic ever will - I certainly like the FW character models much better than any metals or plastics I've seen recently. The problem with resin is that it has some pretty big drawbacks. Resin models are often extremely brittle, can resist superglues if you cast with the wrong type/mix, and it is the most time-consuming medium to produce anything in. You also can't use the same casting equipment as you would with metal. Resin requires vacuum chambers where metal uses spincasters.
Breotan wrote: Wyrd has already proved this assertion wrong with their moving Malifaux to plastic.
Have they, though? I've seen a lot of renders for plastic minis, which look an awful lot like renders and aren't particularly useful for judging the quality of the resultant minis. Has anyone actually seen the quality of the finished product?
Breotan wrote: Wyrd has already proved this assertion wrong with their moving Malifaux to plastic.
Have they, though? I've seen a lot of renders for plastic minis, which look an awful lot like renders and aren't particularly useful for judging the quality of the resultant minis. Has anyone actually seen the quality of the finished product?
I haven't, which is why I'm not considering my assertion 'proved' wrong just yet. I am quite prepared to change my mind if I ever do see one of the models in person and it matches the quality of crisp detail and dynamic posing in much of the ranges I mentioned above. I'm not some mental person loving metal for the sake of it, I just believe that right now, plastic models aren't as suitable for a particular type of miniature in a particular type of game. I'm sure plastic production technology will get to the point where plastic does become not just viable but superior for even those type of miniature, but I'm just not sure we're there yet.
Hello from Spain, we are a company that reflects very well the issue you are dealing with. We have a range of 57 models that have been made of several years of work. Clearly, the production costs are much cheaper metal than plastic which allows certain companies to carry out work with a reasonable investment. On the other hand the differences between plastic and metal are very important, and many have commented here.
- Metal: Heavier, more difficulty in converting (not many) are going to paint strokes and more expensive distribution.
But it also has its advantages: good feeling (seems you really have something in hand), easily unpaintable and easier for manufacturers to make new products as metal miniatures allows you to take individually, and is more oriented shovels "miniatures groups"
Our game of Euporia miniatures (Euphoria city) will be a game with not many miniatures 4-5-6 per side... Metal manufacturing allows us not to have very high costs to start and tackle the project. Doing it in plastic would be a risky bet.
I think the proper way is to start a career in metal and then if it is to satisfy the expectations raised in the future to spend the entire plastic range ...... well, this has already been done, and Reaper is the clearest example
But well , The more manufacturers have more diversity miniatures in the market and we will have more to choose from, and now I'm not speaking as a business but as a consumer of miniatures
Breotan wrote: Wyrd has already proved this assertion wrong with their moving Malifaux to plastic.
Have they, though? I've seen a lot of renders for plastic minis, which look an awful lot like renders and aren't particularly useful for judging the quality of the resultant minis. Has anyone actually seen the quality of the finished product?
I'm a little confused by this statement... Wyrd's plastics have been out since August, and the plastic models translate very well from art to render to plastic mini.
Breotan wrote: Wyrd has already proved this assertion wrong with their moving Malifaux to plastic.
Have they, though? I've seen a lot of renders for plastic minis, which look an awful lot like renders and aren't particularly useful for judging the quality of the resultant minis. Has anyone actually seen the quality of the finished product?
I'm a little confused by this statement... Wyrd's plastics have been out since August, and the plastic models translate very well from art to render to plastic mini.
They do seem to have done a good job and the results bear that out. However, that's not really related to the topic of this thread. Wyrd is NOT a good example, because they are not a "New Company". They are a company that spent alot of time in metal before being able to make the jump to plastic.
Wyrd is actually a good evidence that metal is a better medium for new companies to start with and that plastic is something to work towards.
dh1992 wrote: Plastic injection will be the most sensible option for any company that wants to sell a lot. The problem being, only the big companies can really afford this.
DreamForge and Wyrd would like to disagree with you. That's why I like it when I see this sort of thing on Kickstarter. Once funded, a good project will usually make back the costs as well as generate at least a small profit. Even if future sales are scarce, at least you're not operating at a loss like normal startups do. Small companies like DreamForge, Studio McVey, Mantic, and even Romeo's Outlaw Miniatures demonstrate that high quality plastic models can be produced and enough sold to make back production costs. Wyrd is a small company producing outstanding plastic kits and they didn't even go the kickstarter route.
I'd like to point out that it's slightly premature to call DFG a massive success when two out of three waves of releases have not come out, a lot of Kickstarter backers' minis are AWOL and the entire release schedule is currently a mystery, all thanks to them having to outsource production to China.
Alfndrate wrote: I'm a little confused by this statement... Wyrd's plastics have been out since August, and the plastic models translate very well from art to render to plastic mini.
Not sure what was confusing about it. I hadn't seen any pictures of the finished product, only renders.
And to be honest, those pics you provided don't fill me with joy. The plastics look nowhere near as crisp as Wyrd's metals.
Alfndrate wrote: I'm a little confused by this statement... Wyrd's plastics have been out since August, and the plastic models translate very well from art to render to plastic mini.
Not sure what was confusing about it. I hadn't seen any pictures of the finished product, only renders.
And to be honest, those pics you provided don't fill me with joy. The plastics look nowhere near as crisp as Wyrd's metals.
That's what I thought you said, but it seemed strange that you hadn't seen the plastics 7 months after their release.
I've got a painted Beckoner in my gallery, I don't have a very good camera, but I've been happy with all the plastic models I have with the exception of Hungering Darkness (who has a big line down the middle of the model, and one of the Illuminated in Jakob Lynch's box who has a similar issue. But I got one of the first runs of the box.
Breotan wrote: Wyrd has already proved this assertion wrong with their moving Malifaux to plastic.
Have they, though? I've seen a lot of renders for plastic minis, which look an awful lot like renders and aren't particularly useful for judging the quality of the resultant minis. Has anyone actually seen the quality of the finished product?
I have most of their new plastic stuff. Not everything is assembled, though. I'll try to get some pics taken this weekend and put them here for you to judge.
Eilif wrote: Wyrd is actually a good evidence that metal is a better medium for new companies to start with and that plastic is something to work towards.
More specifically, Wyrd is an example that there is a market for plastic which a new company can jump directly into, provided they have some good business sense about them. Outlaw Miniatures is trying this with their kickstarter. It's ambitious and I wish them much luck but I'm a little worried that weird west is a little too niche for them to last. Haven't seen the game itself yet so I can't speak to the "fun" factor of the game.
I think that someone new, who can work up a solid product line like DreamForge, can bring that to market as plastic and do well. I don't see a big future in metal models. I realize that this is purely anecdotal but the primary reason I don't get full invested in Warmahordes is that I really really hate metal models. Their fake resin and bad sculpting practices on multi-part models (things just don't fit together right) doesn't help any.
Given a choice between a brand new company releasing 1 miniature in plastic or 20 miniatures in metal (or resin) I'd much rather see 20 metal/resin miniatures. similarly given the choice between a company releasing a metal/resin miniature or not launching anything at all I'd go for the single metal/resin miniature.
Whilst Plasitc is all well and good, and has some advantages, I'd rather see a company plan to succeed than just release plastics and be so slow at getting new releases out that they fold.
Now don't get me wrong, I'm all for the company eventually moving into plastics once they have a foot hold, and maybe a better choice of words would be "Should new companies aim to switch to plastics in 5/10 from starting out?"
For every company like Dreamforge, who go the kickstarter route and jump straight to plastic, lets think about hte Kingdom Deaths who do very well selling high quality resins (and ok, they did a kickstarter too - but it was only so successful due to it's already established model line)
For every company like Dreamforge, who go the kickstarter route and jump straight to plastic, lets think about hte Kingdom Deaths who do very well selling high quality resins (and ok, they did a kickstarter too - but it was only so successful due to it's already established model line)
Just a minor correction. Dreamforge was a metal/resin company for a number of years before going plastic. Both their troopers and Leviathans were formerly available in metal and resin respectively.
Ah well, there you go then - even they didn't start as plastic. I actually know little about them - Sci-fi isn't my thing, I just used them as they have been mentioned in this thread as starting in plastics.
Empchild wrote: So i will weigh in and share costs as some of you have no idea what your talking about. As someone who produces minis and has looked at plastics it's just not viable unless you have money to burn. When i was quoted for plastics they wanted close to $30k per mould. Being a box would have two moulds in it and would retail close to $35 that would mean i would have to sell around 1700 units to break even. That is just not viable for new companies. Now if i did metal i run close to $1000 in costs to hit profit(that counts production and distribution). Resin is around the same price.
It depends what you're selling. If you're selling a kit that people will only ever buy one of (like a character mini, etc.) then you are absolutely correct, however if its a unit of minis and the average purchaser will need 2 or 3 kits to play, suddenly that 1700 units to break even becomes say 650 customers... which is more feasible.
Personally, what I would like to see (and have been trying to wrap my head around and come up with a viable concept for) is a production method that allows for the detail and costs of resin production but the scale and speed of plastic injection molding...
Breotan wrote: More specifically, Wyrd is an example that there is a market for plastic which a new company can jump directly into
Again, if by "new" you mean "being the 5th best selling tabletop game in USA for years" (the other 4 are 2x GW and 2x Privateer Press).
And most Malifaux plastics are hardly released, so we can't speak of a huge market just now, with 5th place rewarded by metal sales only!
Mercedes selling cars doesn't mean that everyone should start building a car factory.
It might be instructive to look at the record of companies who actually do jump strait into plastic as thier first product.
For every Mantic who entered riding the back of GW (I don't fault them for this) or VIctrix (who only makes historical line troops and is run by guys with a long history in the biz)and then there are companies like:
-Wargames Factory. Who'se first entries were widely regarded as sub-par and ended up going bust and being bought out by their manufacturer.
-Defiance, who managed to put out one fairly good product before getting sidetracked and has since managed to miss every projected delivery date since...
Most of The companies who make plastic work are those with a history of metal and/or resin and nearly all of them continue to produce metal or resin figs that complement their plastic lines:
Perry
Warlord
GW McVey
Wyrd
Breotan wrote: More specifically, Wyrd is an example that there is a market for plastic which a new company can jump directly into
Again, if by "new" you mean "being the 5th best selling tabletop game in USA for years" (the other 4 are 2x GW and 2x Privateer Press).
And most Malifaux plastics are hardly released, so we can't speak of a huge market just now, with 5th place rewarded by metal sales only!
Mercedes selling cars doesn't mean that everyone should start building a car factory.
Agreed. That there is "a market for plastic" doesn't mean it's ripe for all mini builders to jump in. It also shouldn't distract potential "jumpers" from the more important fact that Wyrd had a strong history and wide popularity before dipping their toes in the plastic market.
The lesson from Wyrd is to take your time, acquire a track record and build up to plastic, NOT to "Jump directly in..".
Adam LongWalker wrote: There is one advantage metal has over plastic. If there is a miscast in metal you just throw it back into the melter. Recycling your raw materials is a benefit in this case.
Actually, with extruded thermal plastics it is common practice to grind up excess/bad parts and then reuse the materials.
Breotan wrote: More specifically, Wyrd is an example that there is a market for plastic which a new company can jump directly into
Again, if by "new" you mean "being the 5th best selling tabletop game in USA for years" (the other 4 are 2x GW and 2x Privateer Press).
And most Malifaux plastics are hardly released, so we can't speak of a huge market just now, with 5th place rewarded by metal sales only!
Mercedes selling cars doesn't mean that everyone should start building a car factory.
First, I never called Wyrd new. I stated that there was a market for plastic figures that a new company could get into. Not "weird west" specifically but sci-fi/fantasy related certainly. Also, being 5th in a niche market doesn't mean you're about to break through the Forbes Fortune 500 anytime soon. In fact, it means that you're most likely the very definition of what a small business is. Your car analogy doesn't even make any sense in this context, except that breaking into markets isn't easy and serious market research needs to be done in order to optimize your chances of success. Still, I stand by my comments that the market exists and a startup can and will succeed unless they're head-up-the-arse oriented like Priestly's kickstarter was.
Now, as to the quality of Wyrd's plastics, here are some pics. Sorry for the bad camera work. :/
Breotan wrote: [ Still, I stand by my comments that the market exists and a startup can and will succeed unless they're head-up-the-arse oriented like Priestly's kickstarter was.
So you keep saying, no one doubts you that a market exists for plastic. However you haven't provided any reasoning for why a "startup can and will succeed" when the evidence so far shows that it's existing companies with some experience, a track record, and a customer base who are the most successful in producing plastic wargames miniatures.
I do agree with your assessment of Priestly's Kickstart though.
Don't forget iKore, whose foray into plastics killed the company dead, due to manufacturing errors and internal corruption. Had they stuck with metals they might have survived the experience.
Top guy's coat seems a bit flat, but otherwise those do look quite nice. Do they come a on single sprue each? Also roughly how many individual parts make up each of them?
Another point in plastic's favor (that I don't think has been brought up) - it makes you stand out of the crowd.
There are more new games/makers than ever - and it seems like at any given time there are a half-dozen more metal skirmish games on Kickstarter.
Launching with plastic shows you're dedicated/serious enough to have put some money on the line/gotten investors/lined up production/what have you. And you've got to have a good deal of confidence in your line to do so.
Analogy-wise - it's the difference between opening a restaurant or pushing a food cart.
Riquende wrote: Top guy's coat seems a bit flat, but otherwise those do look quite nice. Do they come a on single sprue each? Also roughly how many individual parts make up each of them?
I can take a picture tonight since I have some unassembled Guild Riflemen, but the box has 3 sprues in it. 2 sprues have the makings for 2 of the riflemen (spread out amongst the sprues), and the third had the parts for the third rifleman. Each one has 4 individual parts I believe (again I'd have to check).
Edit: THE GOOGLES!
Fyi, I can't see that image as it's work blocked, but it should be a picture of the sprues. And actually upon closer inspection, it does seem that they're each on their own sprue.
Schmapdi wrote: Another point in plastic's favor (that I don't think has been brought up) - it makes you stand out of the crowd.
There are more new games/makers than ever - and it seems like at any given time there are a half-dozen more metal skirmish games on Kickstarter.
Launching with plastic shows you're dedicated/serious enough to have put some money on the line/gotten investors/lined up production/what have you. And you've got to have a good deal of confidence in your line to do so.
Analogy-wise - it's the difference between opening a restaurant or pushing a food cart.
Plastic or metal - £1 or £1million - confidence or not - success isn't guaranteed.
Fyi, I can't see that image as it's work blocked, but it should be a picture of the sprues. And actually upon closer inspection, it does seem that they're each on their own sprue.
They do look alright. I'm still not sure going plastic is suitable for every company (especially one starting up). The skill set needed to design a functional plastic sprue differs from that needed to cast up a few metal pieces. I'm glad to see the industry is moving in the right direction though.
I've taken an interest in the push/pull to plastic lately and this fine thread made me finally make the plunge to register (Hi guys). GW and PP aside the pull to plastic seem to be related to a limited number of participants acting as a support industry to smallish miniature companies taking advantage of recent advances integrating 3D sculpting with steel mould making reducing the cost of producing plastic.
Overseas the guys who aquired Wargames Factory seem to be engaged with quite a few companies, like Wyrd (who seem to have outsourced the whole worklflow from design to production to Ghost Studios) and producing the models for Catalyst Game Labs' game Leviathan and for DreamForge-Games. A few years ago they worked with Bastion Studios too. All of the companies mentioned are using the same design software Freeform provided by Geomagic (formerly Sensable (I would love to know which model is depicted)) and casting their plastic with both regular two part moulds and slide core moulds, the last type making undercuts possible. It seems to me that this partnership between established toy manufacturers and small miniature companies paired with Crowd Funding lovers the bar for going into high quality plastic production while avoid buying the equipment themselves like Reaper seem to have done. It seems to me like this tiny niche (compared to the toy industry as a whole) can be served by one or a few production companies. With time they will probably reduce glitches and lag related to packing and shipping reducing risk.
I would be deligted to know who does the actual production for Wild West Exodus. I understand that PP has set up their own link with production in Asia keeping design inhouse. It would be interesting to know how many mould making production representatives there are out there engaged in this small niche of ours.
These links are scored around the interwebs, some from googling, some from Warseer, DakkaDakka and TMP. Thanks.
), resin is for intermediate modelers and Metal is for the rockers! oops i mean the veteran modelers 
