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Baxx wrote:
All miniature games should be plastic.

Spoiler:

Small skirmish games should definitly be plastic. Since you play with fewer models, you'll move them around more often. Plastic models don't chip paint that easily. So that's one great bonus for smaller sized games. Also when playing smaller games, terrain can be more rough with less flat surfaces. Metal models always fall and chip if you try and balance them on some hill or uneven terrain piece. Plastic models keep balance much easier. Some skirmish games like Necromunda required alot of modifications which can be near impossible with metal miniatures. Same convertions are easy with plastic.

Plastic models is specially important for larger sized games. There is really a huge difference in weight once you bring an army of 20+ models with a handfull of larger models like heavy beasts, tanks or walkers. For units, plastic gives better opprotunity for posing different parts, while metal models usualy comes with just 2-3 poses for a unit of maybe 10 models. Duplicates are boring not only to paint but also to look at.

When painting, it's much easier to hold up and turn a plastic model. Sometimes when holding a metal model, I just lose the grip for some reason and it falls to the ground, chipping, breaking parts and bending.

Plastic models falling to the floor don't necessarily chip, they don't always break and the rarely bend.

With the high level of detail GW are making plastic models these days, it's a win-win-win situation.

Except you completely gloss over the key benefit of metal and resin models - undercuts. Plastic just cannot do this in an injection machine, because the sprue needs to be able to be lifted straight out. Undercuts allow recessed details, such as a head in a hood where the head can curve down the back inside the hood. In an injection molding machine, this wouldn't be possible, because they require sprues to be able to be removed in a single pull. Resin and metal give sharper details than plastic. Both of these are important to people who spend time painting - mushy details are harder to paint, and undercuts give you a better model overall to paint. Yes, it's possible to design around undercuts, but you still don't get the same end result, and you still end up with mushy plastic details.

You mention skirmish games as a good target for plastics due to moving models more regularly - I disagree completely, purely based on a modeling and painting perspective. In a skirmish game, you'll want the best looking models possible, because you don't have many on the table. Which means you'll want to go metal or resin.

Necromunda, Mordheim, Bloodbowl, Warmachine and Hordes do well with plastic miniatures. I haven't noticed people complain about that.

But if you prefer painting (and glueing) you may prefer metal models as they need such servies over and over again.

Can't answer to Mordheim, Warmachine or Hordes as I'm unfamiliar with the ranges but I was under the impression that the vast majority of the ranges for Necromunda and Blood Bowl were metal. There are plastic models included in the starter boxes for both, but they aren't great models, and go completely against what people generally like about the figures from skirmish games.

Infinity, Hell Dorado and Confrontation are immediate examples of games with miniatures generally regarded as excellent quality that just wouldn't work in plastic, no matter how heavy handed the player who knocks his models over all the time.

Eilif wrote:
-A company making a charachter driven, warband scale skirmish game (Like Infinity or somesuch) would be silly to invest in plastic. Metal or resin are going to be the preferred and most financially sound choices. Likewise a company making 15mm scale troops is going to go metal all the way as metal costs are exponentially less for smaller figures.

I would like to point out that your point of "it depends" definitely applies with this statement Malifaux is a character driven, warband scale, skirmish game. All of their new releases since August of last year have all been in plastics, granted they give you incentive to buy the new starter boxes because that's the only way to get the master and his/her totem or to get the 3 minions that come in that box (that you will rarely ever need more than 3 of). It has prevented me from buying some of the start boxes, but that's mostly due to limited funds and not wanting to start a new faction >_<.

Baxx wrote:


But if you prefer painting (and glueing) you may prefer metal models as they need such servies over and over again.

Or, if you do it the right way, you only have to assemble metal models once.

 Alfndrate wrote:

Eilif wrote:
-A company making a charachter driven, warband scale skirmish game (Like Infinity or somesuch) would be silly to invest in plastic. Metal or resin are going to be the preferred and most financially sound choices. Likewise a company making 15mm scale troops is going to go metal all the way as metal costs are exponentially less for smaller figures.

I would like to point out that your point of "it depends" definitely applies with this statement Malifaux is a character driven, warband scale, skirmish game. All of their new releases since August of last year have all been in plastics, granted they give you incentive to buy the new starter boxes because that's the only way to get the master and his/her totem or to get the 3 minions that come in that box (that you will rarely ever need more than 3 of). It has prevented me from buying some of the start boxes, but that's mostly due to limited funds and not wanting to start a new faction >_<.

True, but as has been pointed out in a few other posts, Wyrd miniatures is not really a "Newer company". They were only able to reach the point of doing plastic after a years of selling ALOT of metal miniatures and growing their Malifaux fanbase considerably. The ability to go strait-to-plastic for a new skirmish game was not possible for Wyrd, and it's not financially feasible option for most other projects/companies.

 nectarprime wrote:

Baxx wrote:


But if you prefer painting (and glueing) you may prefer metal models as they need such servies over and over again.

Or, if you do it the right way, you only have to assemble metal models once.

Or if you are human (or play against one), mistakes happen and models fall to the ground. Plastics survive. Even without damage or chipping. Metals don't.

Riquende wrote:
Can't answer to Mordheim, Warmachine or Hordes as I'm unfamiliar with the ranges but I was under the impression that the vast majority of the ranges for Necromunda and Blood Bowl were metal. There are plastic models included in the starter boxes for both, but they aren't great models, and go completely against what people generally like about the figures from skirmish games.

I think Necromunda, Blood Bowl and Mordheim are sold out and out of production. People use plastic Imperial Guard, plastic Space Marines, plastic Tyranids and various other plastic 40k models for Necromunda. In Blood Bowl and Mordheim most of Fantasy plastic models can be used.

Baxx wrote:



Or if you are human (or play against one), mistakes happen and models fall to the ground. Plastics survive. Even without damage or chipping. Metals don't.

If you let other people mess with your models, I guess that could happen. In 10 years of modeling I've yet to drop a metal model. Maybe I'm lucky?

 nectarprime wrote:

Baxx wrote:



Or if you are human (or play against one), mistakes happen and models fall to the ground. Plastics survive. Even without damage or chipping. Metals don't.

If you let other people mess with your models, I guess that could happen. In 10 years of modeling I've yet to drop a metal model. Maybe I'm lucky?

Extremely lucky... i've dropped models while holding them with two hands...

I've also and half of a 2000 point blood angels army get flipped off the table when a large person leaned a little bit too much on the corner of the board... You've not seen terror till you see 2 storm ravens shatter into their individual parts...

All Mini's should be plastic indeed. Had to put together the Night Lords Hero last night and it was a chore to pin it. Something that would had taken 3-4 minutes and allow easy converting opportunities with plastic took a half hour. Reminded me of why I hate metal.

 -Loki- wrote:
Except you completely gloss over the key benefit of metal and resin models - undercuts. Plastic just cannot do this in an injection machine, because the sprue needs to be able to be lifted straight out.

This is not entirely true any more. Some model kit companies are using moulds with sliding sections that allow for some undercuts.

With the technology available to most miniatures companies though, it's reasonably accurate, although with plastic you can get around the problem to a certain extent by just using mulitple parts.


Having said that, it's still not as simple as which gives better detail or which is easier to paint or assemble. Plastic models are a huge investment for a start-up company, and that makes them a huge risk.

They also limit your pool of potential sculptors, since not all sculptors have the particular knowledge required to sculpt plastic-ready models.

Some people's definitions of what a small company is doesn't match reality. Being the "Xth best selling" anything doesn't make you a big business because we're talking about a small piece of an already niche market. Privateer Press, Dreamforge and McVey are all small companies. While PP doesn't do plastics, the other two have and are apparently doing fairly well. No, what small companies need is a solid game plan before making a product and trying to bring it to market. McVey did this with Sedition Wars (BfA). Poots did this with KD:Monster. Dreamforge also had their primary faction planned out prior to their kickstarter. These companies then used Kickstarter to finance their production as well as (essentially) test the market demand for their product. A current example of this process is Outlaw Miniatures, a small company startup with help from Battlefoam. Their current kickstarter is doing very well due to prior planning, solid product line development prior to the kickstarter, and (here it comes) most of the miniatures being released in plastic. So, the argument that a startup can't do this doesn't hold up to reality.

And people making arguments that metal models are superior due to the availability of undercuts need to wake up. GW and Wyrd are doing brilliant models in plastic that look absolutely beautiful on the table. Remember those Space Hulk models? Yea, they're amazing. Did I mention that they're plastic? Yea, complain about eighteen year old Necromunda starter plastics some more. So, what about metal? Well, let's look at Iron Wind Metals. They're a small company that makes metal models, let's see what they've done recently. They raised little more than $30,000 for metal models almost nobody wanted (164 backers). Why? Mostly because the models look like garbage. No excuse for this, really. In fact, for every Infinity model you can hold up to argue your point, I can post one from Grenadier to argue against it.

@Breotan,

What a small company needs is more than a sold game plan (though that is extremely important). What they need is experience and a track record.
-McVey had it with "Studio McVey". Also, they're essentially selling a board-game which gains immidiate access to a wider audience than only miniature wargamers.
-Dreamforge had it in that their Leviethan wakers AND Infantry had sold well as metal products before making the switch to plastic.
-Wild West Exodus looks good, but it hasn't happened yet...

As you point out, it's possible in some situations, but it is not right for every new miniature. There are alot of makers who make products for a niche segment of the already small miniatures market. If they're only going to sell a few hundred or thousand of a certain sculpt then plastic just isn't an option for them. Would companies like Dark Sword be able to make their entire line in plastic? I think not. There's just not a big enough market for Samurai Hamsters. Likewise, Reaper is doing alot with Bones (PVC soft plastic), but there's no way they could make their entire line of miniatures with new releases every month in hard plastic, and they are one of the biggest miniatures companies in the world.

I think plastic is great, but expecting everyone to do it is silly. If the only projects that got made were projects that are financially feasible in hard plastic, then alot of great miniatures would never see the light of day.

Lastly, I'm not sure why you'd hold a 20 year grenadier model up against a recent infinity model. That doesn't make much sense.

I may be the oddball here, but I actually prefer metal models. For a game the scale of 40k I'd say plastic because of the shear size. For skirmish level games however I much prefer metal due to the weight, feeling of substance, and illusion of metal value.

I heard their was issue with the malifaux initial run, but while they look cool they have a lot of flaws and gapping.

 Harriticus wrote:
All Mini's should be plastic indeed. Had to put together the Night Lords Hero last night and it was a chore to pin it. Something that would had taken 3-4 minutes and allow easy converting opportunities with plastic took a half hour. Reminded me of why I hate metal.

I think that's because GW uses adamantium to cast metal minis. I pin the arms on my hybrid Enforcers, and the metal Mantic uses is almost as soft as the lead alloy that used to be used in the olden days.

 BlueDagger wrote:
I may be the oddball here, but I actually prefer metal models. For a game the scale of 40k I'd say plastic because of the shear size. For skirmish level games however I much prefer metal due to the weight, feeling of substance, and illusion of metal value.

I heard their was issue with the malifaux initial run, but while they look cool they have a lot of flaws and gapping.

Initial run being "released at GenCon" since then, I've seen "almost" every plastic they've come out with (Haven't gotten a chance to see Burt Jebson or Izamu up close), but they seem to have fixed it. Now they just need to give us better contact points to the bases lol I've got a depleted that's standing on a point smaller than a pinpoint...

Though I'm with you for the small scale games and metal. All of my plastic Malifaux stuff (with the exception of my Guild Riflemen) are on base inserts to give the models some weight, also helps if I drop the model because the base tends to hit the ground instead of the model

Izamu is excellent. He is an amazing model who loses nothing when stood next to metal models. The only undercut issue on the model can be cleaned up with a small file faster than it would take to pin a single joint on a metal model. And he is very easy to convert.

It seems that like with model kits there is a gradation on difficulty when modeling, so plastic is for beginners (and lazy modelers ), resin is for intermediate modelers and Metal is for the rockers! oops i mean the veteran modelers

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
It seems that like with model kits there is a gradation on difficulty when modeling, so plastic is for beginners (and lazy modelers ), resin is for intermediate modelers and Metal is for the rockers! oops i mean the veteran modelers

That really depends on the models.

Where metal excels is with single-part or small-part-count models, where the sculptor can go to town with detailing or posing without having to worry about how the model will come out of the mould.

And it doesn't take a lot of modelling experience to work with single-part metal models. Hell, it's where most people my age or older would have started out.

ammp wrote:
The fact you can get a high quality 3d printer for under £2,000 now producing plastics to order for a fair price, plastics are the way forward.

ROFL keep smokin that meth man, its some real janky gak you got there if you think anything you just said is true.
The "high quality" printer you refer to at that price isnt good enough to do the job you want it to do, its also too slow for production.

Anyway, plastics are a bad idea for 99% of companies out there. The current trend is small skirmish games with a dozen minis per side, you're never going to see a return on investment that way and it doesnt really make much sense since the cost to the customer will be higher as a result rather than lower.

Its also eXtremely complicated to do plastic minis. Sculpting molding and casting metal minis is mostly art, doing the same in plastic is mostly engineering... even the sculpting phase requires engineering know-how to know what is technically feasible and what isnt, where undercuts are feasible and where they arent, most sculptors dont have that knowledge and you basically have to go back and forth with the mold maker to alter the sculpt for final production. Even with sliding core molds (which are ridiculously expensive) you still have shape and design limits to consider.

Small companies like DreamForge, Studio McVey, Mantic, and even Romeo's Outlaw Miniatures demonstrate that high quality plastic models can be produced and enough sold to make back production costs. Wyrd is a small company producing outstanding plastic kits and they didn't even go the kickstarter route.

Dont confuse production with profit. None of those companies have fully paid off their production costs (except for maybe mcvey, also from ehat ive seen mantic quit the plastic injection and went to the much cheaper restic method) and are shouldering a lot of the debt themselves, also all of those , possibly with the exception of dreamforge, are established company with existing revenue streams.

So i will weigh in and share costs as some of you have no idea what your talking about. As someone who produces minis and has looked at plastics it's just not viable unless you have money to burn. When i was quoted for plastics they wanted close to $30k per mould. Being a box would have two moulds in it and would retail close to $35 that would mean i would have to sell around 1700 units to break even. That is just not viable for new companies. Now if i did metal i run close to $1000 in costs to hit profit(that counts production and distribution). Resin is around the same price.

 insaniak wrote:

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
It seems that like with model kits there is a gradation on difficulty when modeling, so plastic is for beginners (and lazy modelers ), resin is for intermediate modelers and Metal is for the rockers! oops i mean the veteran modelers

That really depends on the models.

Where metal excels is with single-part or small-part-count models, where the sculptor can go to town with detailing or posing without having to worry about how the model will come out of the mould.

And it doesn't take a lot of modelling experience to work with single-part metal models. Hell, it's where most people my age or older would have started out.

I agree, but the way people react to metal models, it is like they see it that way.

There is one advantage metal has over plastic. If there is a miscast in metal you just throw it back into the melter. Recycling your raw materials is a benefit in this case. Did a bit of spin casting in my youth.

But what is important is the price of starting up. The start up costs for working with metal is almost at garage level prices. IMHO Even though I am so very pro metal, for reasons on how positive they are viewed by John Q Public over the years, I also understand what the customer would want. If the company can become financially stable (generally after 5 years) and known for their quality works they could transition from metal to plastic/resin/whatever the market will bear. And I see no problem with that.

Riquende wrote:
Infinity, Hell Dorado and Confrontation are immediate examples of games with miniatures generally regarded as excellent quality that just wouldn't work in plastic, no matter how heavy handed the player who knocks his models over all the time.

Wyrd has already proved this assertion wrong with their moving Malifaux to plastic.

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
It seems that like with model kits there is a gradation on difficulty when modeling, so plastic is for beginners (and lazy modelers ), resin is for intermediate modelers and Metal is for the rockers! oops i mean the veteran modelers

I think resin is actually the medium of choice for "advanced" or veteran modelers. Resin holds crisp detail far better than metal or plastic ever will - I certainly like the FW character models much better than any metals or plastics I've seen recently. The problem with resin is that it has some pretty big drawbacks. Resin models are often extremely brittle, can resist superglues if you cast with the wrong type/mix, and it is the most time-consuming medium to produce anything in. You also can't use the same casting equipment as you would with metal. Resin requires vacuum chambers where metal uses spincasters.

 Breotan wrote:
Wyrd has already proved this assertion wrong with their moving Malifaux to plastic.

Have they, though? I've seen a lot of renders for plastic minis, which look an awful lot like renders and aren't particularly useful for judging the quality of the resultant minis. Has anyone actually seen the quality of the finished product?

 insaniak wrote:

 Breotan wrote:
Wyrd has already proved this assertion wrong with their moving Malifaux to plastic.

Have they, though? I've seen a lot of renders for plastic minis, which look an awful lot like renders and aren't particularly useful for judging the quality of the resultant minis. Has anyone actually seen the quality of the finished product?

I haven't, which is why I'm not considering my assertion 'proved' wrong just yet. I am quite prepared to change my mind if I ever do see one of the models in person and it matches the quality of crisp detail and dynamic posing in much of the ranges I mentioned above. I'm not some mental person loving metal for the sake of it, I just believe that right now, plastic models aren't as suitable for a particular type of miniature in a particular type of game. I'm sure plastic production technology will get to the point where plastic does become not just viable but superior for even those type of miniature, but I'm just not sure we're there yet.

Hello from Spain, we are a company that reflects very well the issue you are dealing with. We have a range of 57 models that have been made ​​of several years of work. Clearly, the production costs are much cheaper metal than plastic which allows certain companies to carry out work with a reasonable investment. On the other hand the differences between plastic and metal are very important, and many have commented here.

- Metal: Heavier, more difficulty in converting (not many) are going to paint strokes and more expensive distribution.

But it also has its advantages: good feeling (seems you really have something in hand), easily unpaintable and easier for manufacturers to make new products as metal miniatures allows you to take individually, and is more oriented shovels "miniatures groups"

Our game of Euporia miniatures (Euphoria city) will be a game with not many miniatures 4-5-6 per side... Metal manufacturing allows us not to have very high costs to start and tackle the project. Doing it in plastic would be a risky bet.

I think the proper way is to start a career in metal and then if it is to satisfy the expectations raised in the future to spend the entire plastic range ...... well, this has already been done, and Reaper is the clearest example

But well , The more manufacturers have more diversity miniatures in the market and we will have more to choose from, and now I'm not speaking as a business but as a consumer of miniatures

 insaniak wrote:

 Breotan wrote:
Wyrd has already proved this assertion wrong with their moving Malifaux to plastic.

Have they, though? I've seen a lot of renders for plastic minis, which look an awful lot like renders and aren't particularly useful for judging the quality of the resultant minis. Has anyone actually seen the quality of the finished product?

I'm a little confused by this statement... Wyrd's plastics have been out since August, and the plastic models translate very well from art to render to plastic mini.

PlastIc only. Hate working with metal and I haven't met a resin that looks like it will last.

 Alfndrate wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 Breotan wrote:
Wyrd has already proved this assertion wrong with their moving Malifaux to plastic.

Have they, though? I've seen a lot of renders for plastic minis, which look an awful lot like renders and aren't particularly useful for judging the quality of the resultant minis. Has anyone actually seen the quality of the finished product?

I'm a little confused by this statement... Wyrd's plastics have been out since August, and the plastic models translate very well from art to render to plastic mini.

They do seem to have done a good job and the results bear that out. However, that's not really related to the topic of this thread. Wyrd is NOT a good example, because they are not a "New Company". They are a company that spent alot of time in metal before being able to make the jump to plastic.

Wyrd is actually a good evidence that metal is a better medium for new companies to start with and that plastic is something to work towards.