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 Kroothawk wrote:
Every small garage company should start with a 500.000 $ investment to see if they sell 5 boxes or not
Boo for the losers who don't have 500.000 $ to burn, boo for the sculptors who hate to avoid undercuts

How did Eccentric Minis and Proxie Models get started? They both produce plastic models for cheap in their own garages, so there's some smoke being blown somewhere by someone in this thread. The only thing keeping Eccentric and proxie from really taking off is experience. Once one of those companies figures out how to design a more efficient sprue and hires a good sculptor, there will be no reason to play this "500,000 dollars" bullcrap card anymore.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 Kroothawk wrote:
Every small garage company should start with a 500.000 $ investment to see if they sell 5 boxes or not
Boo for the losers who don't have 500.000 $ to burn, boo for the sculptors who hate to avoid undercuts

How did Eccentric Minis and Proxie Models get started? They both produce plastic models for cheap in their own garages, so there's some smoke being blown somewhere by someone in this thread. The only thing keeping Eccentric and proxie from really taking off is experience. Once one of those companies figures out how to design a more efficient sprue and hires a good sculptor, there will be no reason to play this "500,000 dollars" bullcrap card anymore.

That figure depends. A good sculptor designing an efficient sprue is well and good, but if they're doing it in their garage, they're shelling out for a plastic injection machine. That's... not cheap in any sense of the word. If they branch out and get someone like Renedra to do it, not only are they not the ones making their own sprue, but they need to work to that companies schedule. Look at the issues Mantic have had - their Forgefather line is a good example. They ended up compromising the quality by using half Kings of War, half Warpath for the infantry models (which is wht they have a cape and short sword - the same cape and short sword as the Kings of War models).

Doing plastic in yourself is expensive. Outsourcing means you give up some control on your project.

Some places have figured out a way to do actual plastic in spin casting machines, like Trollforged - good for them. As far as I know, they haven't let it out how they do it, and while they do do outsourced casting for other people, it's still the same issues as outsourcing it to someone like Renedra.

It all depends what a company think it's capable of. If a company is casting in metal as opposed to plastic then I have to think theres a reason for this.

I like plastic to convert. But I also like the weight behind a metal model. I'm a warmachine player primarily, and I don't think that warjacks feel right in plastic. They're a big lump of metal, and in my opinion I feel that is exactly what they should be.

I was raised on Metal, yung Unz these days!
But i don't realy mind as long as it looks good (although, i don't like resin for slender play pieces, breaks too easy).

Plastic for grunts in games with big armies, metal for character models and skirmish games, resin for anything that needs to be.

I think the plastic vs metal is a case of 'horses for courses' (to use an old english adage)

In support of what has been mentioned, large rank-n-file units should be done in plastic, because it is the most cost-effective method of producing large units with multiple options.

But we should take into account the effect that model count has on a manufacturer's choice with regards to plastic vs metal.

Take small skirmish-size games like Infinity, Bushido, etc, where you typically have <10 models per force. I think in cases where you have a small number of individual models, then metal/resin is the most beneficial medium because the advantages of using plastic don't really balance out (e.g. in the case of Bushido, there are very few 'generic' models and most of them are essentially 'special characters', so there is no real need to produce multi-part plastic models).

However, I will note that it does become cost effective, but only once you reach certain massive scales (i.e. GW/PP/Wyrd) because the sheer volume of sales makes plastic more cost-effective.

 -Loki- wrote:


Some places have figured out a way to do actual plastic in spin casting machines, like Trollforged - good for them. As far as I know, they haven't let it out how they do it, and while they do do outsourced casting for other people, it's still the same issues as outsourcing it to someone like Renedra.

You mean... a centrifuge? It's how metal miniatures have been cast since, well, almost forever.

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

ammp wrote:
The fact you can get a high quality 3d printer for under £2,000 now producing plastics to order for a fair price, plastics are the way forward.

Really, well, and truly not germaine at the current time - the time taken to produce a model using a 3D printer, at the current state of the art, prohibits that method from actually having much of an impact.

The quality produced, again at state of the art, also precludes using it for any finely detailed items.

That said - for much terrain and some vehicles a solid free form fabricator is viable, and will eventually become something that miniatures companies must keep an eye on.

The state of the art is constantly advancing, but it just is not there yet - but close enough for GW to start issuing C&D requests....

The Auld Grump

Erm, what now? How can the technology not be up to making finely detailed items when people are using 3D printing to produce their in-scale prototype and master models from the computer renders? It may not yet be practical for a company to just buy 3D printers and make all their models that way, but that's down to the time to produce per-model still being higher than traditional casting, and that won't be the case for much longer.

As for metal vs plastic, the way I see it, plastic is preferable in most situations, and in those few it isn't(extremely detailed character models, limited production runs etc etc), there's no excuse at all not to use resin. It's almost as resilient, in some scenarios moreso; it's easier to convert; it's easier to properly prep; it's not significantly more expensive, especially if you resort to restic rather than traditional hard resin. And on that last point, before anyone mentions the potential for metal to be reused in cases of failed casts; first, most failed casts are not random events, they happened because somebody made a mistake, wasn't paying attention, or because the company is using substandard equipment, so an efficient operation with well-trained staff can substantially minimise the need to resort to reusing metal/throwing out resin in any case; further, assuming the company is taking steps to avoid miscasts(which they should be, regardless of what material they use), I question whether the money you save from reusing materials would be substantially more valuable than the labour your staff would have to expend in order to go through the process of reusing the metal.

 Yodhrin wrote:


Erm, what now? How can the technology not be up to making finely detailed items when people are using 3D printing to produce their in-scale prototype and master models from the computer renders? It may not yet be practical for a company to just buy 3D printers and make all their models that way, but that's down to the time to produce per-model still being higher than traditional casting, and that won't be the case for much longer.

Any printer that can print with PERFECT detail is going to be well out of the price range of any hobbyist, and a lot of small companies. All but the most expensive printers have visible stepping in the part they create, and that must be dealt with before making it into a usable miniature (usually by using MEK to smooth the surface).

I'd love to be able to do plastic, but right now it's just way way way way way way way too expensive. Some day though.. saving up my food stamps now.

That is one issue with plastic vs metal. Its much cheaper to do metal moulds.

I'm with those who say IT DEPENDS.

-Skirmish, vs Mass Battle,
-Small Niche game, vs game with wider appeal
-Scale issues

Right now there is alot of push toward plastic because it's way the big-dogs are going and it's what most recent GW'ers have grown up with. The beneifits of the various materials, monpose sculpts vs multipart poseables, etc have all been hashed out before, so I'm going to skip over that.

What it boils down to is that a smart company is going to have to look very closely at the product and make some sales projections to see if plastic, metal, vinyl, resin or resi/fine/trollcast-ic, or some other material is going to best serve their product and their customers.

-A company making a charachter driven, warband scale skirmish game (Like Infinity or somesuch) would be silly to invest in plastic. Metal or resin are going to be the preferred and most financially sound choices. Likewise a company making 15mm scale troops is going to go metal all the way as metal costs are exponentially less for smaller figures.
-A company making a mass battle game is going to want to look at the feasiblity of plastic for their line troops.
etc, etc..

There are real barriers to plastic, and while it's good to want to give the customer exactly what they want (plastic is popular right now) it would be silly for a company to discount other materials without consideration just because the trend is moving that way

BobtheInquisitor wrote:[
How did Eccentric Minis and Proxie Models get started? They both produce plastic models for cheap in their own garages, so there's some smoke being blown somewhere by someone in this thread. The only thing keeping Eccentric and proxie from really taking off is experience. Once one of those companies figures out how to design a more efficient sprue and hires a good sculptor, there will be no reason to play this "500,000 dollars" bullcrap card anymore.

Right now most companies have to outsource plastic production and that is expensive. 3d printing is coming down in price, but a printer that prints as nice as a cast-model is very expensive and hard to do at the production scale necessary for miniature distribution.

As for Proxie, but he is pretty much the exception that proves the rule. Go watch his video on UTube There aren't alot of folks in the miniatures world with the techincal know-how to cobble together their own plastic moulding system from surplus equipment. Further, I use and like proxie products, but the level of detail he's been able to achieve just isn't up to a level that will let him cast 28mm miniature figures at a standard of detail that meets the current state-of-miniatures. He's making progress, but right now it's pretty much limited to 15mm vehilcles (Fairly basic in design) bases and some terrain items.

As For Eccentric minis, they are simple and functional, but again, the detail isn't there yet.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 Kroothawk wrote:
Every small garage company should start with a 500.000 $ investment to see if they sell 5 boxes or not
Boo for the losers who don't have 500.000 $ to burn, boo for the sculptors who hate to avoid undercuts

How did Eccentric Minis and Proxie Models get started? They both produce plastic models for cheap in their own garages, so there's some smoke being blown somewhere by someone in this thread. The only thing keeping Eccentric and proxie from really taking off is experience. Once one of those companies figures out how to design a more efficient sprue and hires a good sculptor, there will be no reason to play this "500,000 dollars" bullcrap card anymore.

While I tend to agree in theory, in today's world where you have a lot of people who are unable to check their own oil - let alone replace it...setting up and running industrial machinery in one's own back yard isn't within the abilities of many would be miniature designers (not to mention the requisite space requirements). If they were technically inclined though, they could get that ball rolling for much less than $500,000 or even $50,000 for that matter.

That said - there is really no reason that a new company should set its eyes on plastics. Beyond the lack of market information that one should have before making those large decisions (should they look to tie up several years worth of profit in a mold that might only appeal to a small portion of their customers) and the technical limitations of plastics (undercuts being the most obvious limit), small companies...especially startups have plenty of reason to stick with metal or resin.

For the investment in a single mold which might give you 3 multipart plastic figures, they could roll out several complete lines of figures. Metal also allows them to build miniature lines with money from between the sofa cushions. A company like Hinterlands which has slowly been building a range of figures over the course of several years using "extra" money a few figures every few months has allowed them to avoid going into the red (at least significantly). Now they actually have a pretty good sized range, for a very niche within a niche category of miniatures.

http://hinterlandminiatures.weebly.com/storecart.html

You also have a lot of games that it just doesn't make sense to do plastics in - at least not from the start. Skirmish games, where everything is a character model. Niche games, where the market would take decades to actually pay off the molds at reasonable price points. Those little side games are often the place where new innovations happen that then get bundled into larger games down the road. They are small and cheap to finance, so creators are more likely to try things which might be risky.

Now, I do think that older companies should really be making the shift towards plastic - especially for core units. They have got a fairly good understanding of what sells and what doesn't from within their range. They have expierance managing logistics issues. They might even have a little bit of capital saved up (or at least something that can be used as collateral) to help finance their new project. For them, a Kickstarter campaign to get them over the big humps is a great thing. Companies like Corvus Belli and Privateer Press would really benefit from hard plastics for the core troops for each faction (and maybe stretch goals for the better selling special units).

I much prefer plastic to work with, but for a lot of companies it's just not realistic to produce everything in a hard plastic similar to GW. They'll never sell enough to make back the cost of the molds.

 Grey Templar wrote:
That is one issue with plastic vs metal. Its much cheaper to do metal moulds.

And this is why plastic is only better for model runs you know will sell a lot. The initial investment for a plastic mold is high enough that you need a high sales volume to offset it. If you are doing models that won't sell multiples to people, it's generally going to be better as metal or resin simply due to the cost of the mold. Even when going through someone like renedra, which is why you see even places like Mantic do initial runs in metal sometimes.

 nectarprime wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:


Erm, what now? How can the technology not be up to making finely detailed items when people are using 3D printing to produce their in-scale prototype and master models from the computer renders? It may not yet be practical for a company to just buy 3D printers and make all their models that way, but that's down to the time to produce per-model still being higher than traditional casting, and that won't be the case for much longer.

Any printer that can print with PERFECT detail is going to be well out of the price range of any hobbyist, and a lot of small companies. All but the most expensive printers have visible stepping in the part they create, and that must be dealt with before making it into a usable miniature (usually by using MEK to smooth the surface).

Exactly - those 3D printers that run for 2,000 GBP are just not up to the task, and there are plenty that run upwards of 15,000 GBP where the stepping would be noticeable.

That said - there are things where those steps on edges and ridges just won't matter: Terrain and some vehicles being high on the list.

By 'not much longer'... I would suspect in the next ten years, but not the next five, it will be viable. I'd love to be wrong though.

SFF has been around since the nineties that I know of, the tech is getting less expensive and the output more detailed, but it is not there yet... yet....

And some really big ones are being used to make buildings now - not tabletop terrain, but actual buildings....

The Auld Grump

I honestly don't even want 3D printing to take over. There's something about unboxing a new kit, clipping it all off, and trying to find ways to convert it that just won't be the same wheyou just pose a 3D model and hit print.

Also, I'm far more interested in what Modern Meadow is doing. 3D printing organic substances? Assuming they can get the tase right, I'd be all over the ability to print a rib eye to throw on the BBQ.

I think you are ignoring the historical side of the hobby. Quality hard plastic miniatures are a relatively recent invention. I can buy/paint a top quality metal 15mm historical army for .70 per model, down to under .30 if I don't mind less finely sculpted figures. 28mm historical manufacturers wouldn't DREAM of trying to extort the prices GW charges as a matter of course - Perry plastics are under $1 per model and metal models are about 2$. Historical miniatures deal in the rank-and-file almost exclusively, which kind of invalidates your argument. The manufacturers most certainly CAN make affordable, well sculpted models in either plastic or metal. Why they don't is a different question.

 AlexHolker wrote:
For me, the most important step the industry can take is to produce affordable rank-and-file that I want to own. Any company that works exclusively in metal - or in many restics - is incapable of achieving that step, and so I have no real desire to help them succeed.

Like others have said, metal is great for skirmish games, where the quality of the sculpting is very high and there is very little conversion. Infinity would be the perfect example.

For a game like 40k, or any 28mm where conversion is expected and encouraged, I think plastic is king these days. And I'd much rather have a normal 28mm sized fig in metal rather than resin, assuming the sculpt is high quality and wouldn't get in the way of conversion or be a pain to assemble. I really hate forgeworld resin, but love their sculpts of course.

15mm is kind of in between. I love plastic for 15mm but metal has the advantage of being more sturdy.

They all do different things, differently. I certainly never want to see metal phased out completely, and GW doing so in favour of Finecast was truly a sad day and the end of my purchasing GW character models.

I'm sort of torn on this topic.

Malifaux. I have enjoyed the metal models. Now, this is a game system where there is no option on battle gear. the fact that most minions that you need multiples of (death marshals, Ronan, guild guards, metal gamin, etc....) come in three different molds. So, painting them does not get boring. I have not been a huge fan of the plastics, however, it seems to be growing on me.

Fine cast, need I go on. This stuff sucks.

Plastics a great for systems where converting is allowed by rules. 40k, WHFB, and others.

Just my thoughts.

We're plastic engineers (so obviously very biased) but from what we've seen plastic is the way forward. We think that the models can be massively more detailed and a lot easier to make the CAD for and paint. We use two methods of producing our models. 3D printing and plastic injection.
Plastic injection will be the most sensible option for any company that wants to sell a lot. The problem being, only the big companies can really afford this. The start up costs of producing the CAD and a tool for good quality plastic models can be a massive risk for small businesses. After you go through design and tooling the costs already have the potential to be in 5 figures! If you have the confidence in selling enough of that product to make the start up costs back however plastic injection can be a very profitable thing to do as the costs after making the tool are fairly cheap and the company would basically be paying for the plastic material.

3D printing is new to the industry and at the minute we're all kind of experimenting with it. The idea is that you print off a 3D model in liquid resin from an .stl file. It isn't that cheap of a process but it's not expensive as it sounds. There are no design costs (minus the CAD) and all that needs to be payed for is the 3D printer itself. Plus what it is in price it makes up for in quality and detail. We have an Objet 30 Pro and it's a phenomenal machine. You wouldn't believe some of the detail we can get! He's a link to a rough guide I did of how we use it to make Wargame scenery a month back.
http://tabletopworkshop.blogspot.com/2013/02/producing-3d-printed-searchlight.html

I myself purely believe that metal models have had their time and sooner rather than later all of the big boys will be pretty much plastic dominated with the odd bit of scenery and terrain created by resin and polystyrene Lets face it, wargaming would lose it's heart without the little projects like them!

Anyway. Hope that helps you understand in some way!

 Ouze wrote:
I'd certainly prefer resin or plastic to metal, that's for sure. I'm not a fan of metal, unless it's the headbanging sort.

Is fine cast your nu-metal?

dh1992 wrote:
Plastic injection will be the most sensible option for any company that wants to sell a lot. The problem being, only the big companies can really afford this.

DreamForge and Wyrd would like to disagree with you. That's why I like it when I see this sort of thing on Kickstarter. Once funded, a good project will usually make back the costs as well as generate at least a small profit. Even if future sales are scarce, at least you're not operating at a loss like normal startups do. Small companies like DreamForge, Studio McVey, Mantic, and even Romeo's Outlaw Miniatures demonstrate that high quality plastic models can be produced and enough sold to make back production costs. Wyrd is a small company producing outstanding plastic kits and they didn't even go the kickstarter route.

Your point about needing to sell a lot is accurate however. I hope distribution can be handled well enough that this stuff finds its way into LFGS and into the hands of customers who need to know that GW is no longer the only game in town.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

 Ouze wrote:
I'd certainly prefer resin or plastic to metal, that's for sure. I'm not a fan of metal, unless it's the headbanging sort.

Is fine cast your nu-metal?

Wow. That's really unnecessary to make fun of Nu-Metal like that. I mean, they're not boy-bands after all.

All miniature games should be plastic.

Small skirmish games should definitly be plastic. Since you play with fewer models, you'll move them around more often. Plastic models don't chip paint that easily. So that's one great bonus for smaller sized games. Also when playing smaller games, terrain can be more rough with less flat surfaces. Metal models always fall and chip if you try and balance them on some hill or uneven terrain piece. Plastic models keep balance much easier. Some skirmish games like Necromunda required alot of modifications which can be near impossible with metal miniatures. Same convertions are easy with plastic.

Plastic models is specially important for larger sized games. There is really a huge difference in weight once you bring an army of 20+ models with a handfull of larger models like heavy beasts, tanks or walkers. For units, plastic gives better opprotunity for posing different parts, while metal models usualy comes with just 2-3 poses for a unit of maybe 10 models. Duplicates are boring not only to paint but also to look at.

When painting, it's much easier to hold up and turn a plastic model. Sometimes when holding a metal model, I just lose the grip for some reason and it falls to the ground, chipping, breaking parts and bending.

Plastic models falling to the floor don't necessarily chip, they don't always break and the rarely bend.

With the high level of detail GW are making plastic models these days, it's a win-win-win situation.

 Breotan wrote:
DreamForge and Wyrd would like to disagree with you. That's why I like it when I see this sort of thing on Kickstarter.

You mean those small companies that are the fifth best selling tabletop game in USA for several years (Wyrd) or get 200.000$ by crowd funding (DreamForge)? These small companies? Sure, then everyone can do it!

Personally I'm not a fan of metal due to how difficult it is to work with. That said if I liked the mini enough that I wouldn't have to do too much work to it (or non at all) it wouldn't massively put me off. But on that front if I'm using it for gaming metal would definately need to be smaller - large metal models are just too heavy.

With all that said though I have no problem with good quality resin, not the GW finecast stuff (though I've been told it's ok now but I'm still not trusting it enough to buy it) a good quality resin has some real benefits over plastic. The detail can be far better, and it's easy to work with. The only real down side is it tend to be a little more fragile than plastic - but I take care of my minis anyway so I don't find that much of a problem.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kroothawk wrote:

 Breotan wrote:
DreamForge and Wyrd would like to disagree with you. That's why I like it when I see this sort of thing on Kickstarter.

You mean those small companies that are the fifth best selling tabletop game in USA for several years (Wyrd) or get 200.000$ by crowd funding (DreamForge)? These small companies? Sure, then everyone can do it!

There is a point there however, with Kickstarter it is possible that every company "could" go plastic if they so wished - you just kickstart it and you'll find out if it'll sell enough to pay for the plastic back or not. If it doesn't then you simply go with something else safe in the knowledge that the market isn't there for plastic.

That said, as much as I like kickstarter, I imagine that it comes with it's own set of issues, and it might be better for a small/startup to go resin/metal - thats obviously for the company to decide themselves.

I personally think that the majority or miniatures should be in plastic,like when mongoose released starship troopers the majority of it was in metal... So miniatures were hard to convert/assemble.I think GW should release a starship troopers line... I know they could make them faaarrr better than mongoose ever could

 Kroothawk wrote:

 Breotan wrote:
DreamForge and Wyrd would like to disagree with you. That's why I like it when I see this sort of thing on Kickstarter.

You mean those small companies that are the fifth best selling tabletop game in USA for several years (Wyrd) or get 200.000$ by crowd funding (DreamForge)? These small companies? Sure, then everyone can do it!

Agreed. Wyrd is far from small in the Miniatures world. Also, remember that Dreamforge isn't a raw startup either. They're small, but they had already proven sales record for their troops in metal and their mechs in Resin before they started their kickstarter to get them into plastic.

I'm not going to say that it's impossible for a small company to start with plastic, but it's much more difficult and seems to only be doable by companies making line troops (Wargames Factory, Defiance, Mantic, etc). Companies like Wyrd or Dreamforge start out with metal or resin until they know they have a product that will make back the production costs of plastic.

Baxx wrote:
All miniature games should be plastic.

No thanks! I can't imagine how (comparitively) awful some games' figures would be if they tried to make them in plastic. Maybe the technology will be there one day (maybe even in just a few years) but right now metal is the way forward for a certain type of game.

With the high level of detail GW are making plastic models these days, it's a win-win-win situation.

GW don't make kits for the games I play.