This is a bit of a silly question, but here goes.

What is considered "canon" when discussing 40k? I understand that there are multiple different sources of fluff, from the Black Library books, Rulebooks, Codexes, WDs, etc, but are any of them considered more official than the others? Does Fantasy Flight Games stuff count? What about the Dawn of War series? I know someone wrote a book based on them (C.S. Goto?)

Part of the fun in 40K is making the background your own, but does codex > rulebook when it comes to fluff if there is a conflict just like with rules? Or does it just become discussion fodder for Dakka? Are the different BL books supposed to offer in universe explanations and therefore not strictly canon or what? The last BRB I read was for 3rd ED (I recently got back into the game buying DV) and I remember it reading more from a Imperium perspective than omniscient narrator, are the BRBs open for interpretation as well or canon?

Edited to add a poll! Open for suggestions changing it, or feel free to start a new one asking about canon hierarchies, I'm off for the night.

Everything. There is no such thing as canon in 40K. Actually, it's all canon... that is to say, nothing written in any source can be taken as "canon" over any other, as all of it is nothing but a collection of myths, rumors, stories, and hearsay.

Even the rulebooks are written from an in-universe perspective, unless what you're reading is a chart for game-mechanics or something that is obviously for the table-top game itself, rather than the fluff behind the game.

First of all, C.S.Goto can die in a hole.

And this is a common question, id suggest searching for threads on this sort of thing, as Im anticipating a bit of complaining directed at you. Just a heads up mate.

Anyway, a lot of different sources, and even different bits of fluff from the same source can contradict each other. A lot of the BL books contradict each other, due to all the different authors for example.

In my head, it just represents how chaotic the 40k universe is. Its so big and there is so much going on, that there are bound to be conflicting perspectives on single events, and what happened where and with who.

I guess generally GW (i.e. codices and rulebooks) is the top source, then the BL, and then other sources I dont know start to fall in.

Everything... yet nothing!

 Psienesis wrote:
Everything. There is no such thing as canon in 40K. Actually, it's all canon... that is to say, nothing written in any source can be taken as "canon" over any other, as all of it is nothing but a collection of myths, rumors, stories, and hearsay.

Even the rulebooks are written from an in-universe perspective, unless what you're reading is a chart for game-mechanics or something that is obviously for the table-top game itself, rather than the fluff behind the game.

You summed it up a lot better than me mate

I'm gonna be subjective and say BL book will never trump codex/index fluff in my eyes..Thanks to the wisdom of some great posters here on dakka who refuse to go into debates when some biased author trumps his version over established fluff...


OP - do a poll, please....

 HerbaciousT wrote:
And this is a common question, id suggest searching for threads on this sort of thing, as Im anticipating a bit of complaining directed at you. Just a heads up mate.

I used the search function and skimmed the first few pages, nothing really jumped out. Sorry!

 HerbaciousT wrote:
I guess generally GW (i.e. codices and rulebooks) is the top source, then the BL, and then other sources I dont know start to fall in.

This was part of my question as well, is there a canon hierarchy (which there shouldn't be, since, well canon) or not?


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 Psienesis wrote:
Everything. There is no such thing as canon in 40K. Actually, it's all canon... that is to say, nothing written in any source can be taken as "canon" over any other, as all of it is nothing but a collection of myths, rumors, stories, and hearsay.

Even the rulebooks are written from an in-universe perspective, unless what you're reading is a chart for game-mechanics or something that is obviously for the table-top game itself, rather than the fluff behind the game.

This too is what I was lead to believe, just wanted to double check! Thanks for the quick response!

Not officially, no. Some people stick by Codex over Novel, others have their own "canon constructs", but these are all just personal choices and opinions, one no more correct, or incorrect, than any other.

 DarthMarko wrote:
I'm gonna be subjective and say BL book will never trump codex/index fluff in my eyes..Thanks to the wisdom of some great posters here on dakka who refuse to go into debates when some biased author trumps his version over established fluff...


OP - do a poll, please....

What would you like in the poll? I will whip it up then I am hitting the sack.

 Psienesis wrote:
Not officially, no. Some people stick by Codex over Novel, others have their own "canon constructs", but these are all just personal choices and opinions, one no more correct, or incorrect, than any other.

And some people abuse that and use which ever version suits them best for their faction


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4TheG8erGood wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:
I'm gonna be subjective and say BL book will never trump codex/index fluff in my eyes..Thanks to the wisdom of some great posters here on dakka who refuse to go into debates when some biased author trumps his version over established fluff...


OP - do a poll, please....

What would you like in the poll? I will whip it up then I am hitting the sack.

Well you know...How do you rank your fluff source, or something like that...Or which fluff source you use when contradictions hit you:-)

 DarthMarko wrote:
Well you know...How do you rank your fluff source, or something like that...Or which fluff source you use when contradictions hit you:-)

Tried to capture that in a poll, peace out!

4TheG8erGood wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:
Well you know...How do you rank your fluff source, or something like that...Or which fluff source you use when contradictions hit you:-)

Tried to capture that in a poll, peace out!

Huzzah

Edit: First choice is really deep dude :-)

The 40k I enjoy is the right one for me. Same for you. And him. And her. But not that guy in the corner, because he's a freak.

So, I'm gonna leave my usual set of quotes here:

"With Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000, the notion of canon is a fallacy. [...] Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 exist as tens of thousands of overlapping realities in the imaginations of games developers, writers, readers and gamers. None of those interpretations is wrong."
-- Gav Thorpe

"It all stems from the assumption that there's a binding contract between author and reader to adhere to some nonexistent subjective construct or 'true' representation of the setting. There is no such contract, and no such objective truth."
-- Andy Hoare

"There is no canon. There's a variety of sources, many of which conflict, but every single one is a lens through which we can see the 40K setting."
-- Aaron Dembski-Bowden

... bottom line, 40k is what you make of it. The gamers and the readers are supposed to take possession of the setting and shape it as befits their individual preferences and purposes. It took me quite a while to "get this", for like many I came to the franchise believing that everything was supposed to fit together - an "urban myth" that even now is still propagated by some because that's what they were told from other fans ..

I'm a bit confused, though. Isn't the option "everything yet nothing" essentially the same as "things you agree with, nothing more"?

[edit] Oh, I forgot, I should write a bit about how I deal with the subject myself ...

Me, I'm staying as close to the GW studio fluff as possible, meaning the contents of codices, the rulebooks, magazines such as White Dwarf or Citadel Journal (RIP) and the stuff hosted on the various websites (free PDFs and short articles). Aside from me "growing up" with the tone and style of the studio's own writing, I also believe that this approach keeps me more compatible to the majority of future products from this origin than if I were to embrace one of the outsourced outlets of fluff instead, simply because all the GW stuff is written by the same circle of people (aside from the occasional change in personnel that occurs over the years), compared to the ideas and interpretations of the many, many different individual writers that work on novels etc. Many cooks, broth, etc. Even now, after over two decades, you still find references and even straight copied passages of text from the earliest days of the franchise in the newest rulebook. That is a consistency unparalleled by any other source of fluff, and I'm all for consistency.

Last but not least, even with the "laissez-faire" approach that GW has taken on the setting, it seems that people - including other authors - tend to look to GW for orientation first. This can be witnessed on outsourced material quickly picking up on, for example, the "Newcrons", rather than ignoring this pseudo-retcon. This exchange of ideas actually works both ways, but GW seems notably less likely to adopt something from BL (etc.) than the other way around. And don't count on seeing the contents of one BL novel referenced in another, except perhaps when they're part of a series .. and even then you'll have conflicts.
When it comes to GW sources, I'm also going with "newer source overrides older source" in case of any contradictions that cannot be worked around.

That doesn't mean that I do not incorporate anything that has not been printed elsewhere into my own personal interpretation of the 41st millennium, however. There are a number of aspects from various novels and games that I have adopted into my perspective as well, all depending on how cool I subjectively thought they were, as well as (perhaps even more important) how well they fit in or can be made to fit in. In this, I do not incorporate the entire product but just the things I liked.

The cherrypicking from non-GW sources is something I rarely discuss here, however, simply because that is even more personal and subjective than my preference for GW fluff, which I also regard as a sort of "common ground" between us. So, whenever I'm posting about fluff, consider it to be referring to GW material. Any exceptions to this will be specially marked by me, and usually take the form of suggestions of something to potentially draw inspiration from if the reader likes what he or she sees.

For me, just about everything. If there's a contradiction, then I'll typically go with whichever's newest or most detailed. Which is often Black Library/The Horus Heresy series.

Rulebook + Codexes + Black Library + FFG + DOW, etc + Everything...yet nothing!

Everything is considered canon except things that were replaced by newer versions. But there are also part of the fluff that you can form your own opinion of that is also considered canon.

 Lynata wrote:
So, I'm gonna leave my usual set of quotes here:

"With Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000, the notion of canon is a fallacy. [...] Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 exist as tens of thousands of overlapping realities in the imaginations of games developers, writers, readers and gamers. None of those interpretations is wrong."
-- Gav Thorpe

"It all stems from the assumption that there's a binding contract between author and reader to adhere to some nonexistent subjective construct or 'true' representation of the setting. There is no such contract, and no such objective truth."
-- Andy Hoare

"There is no canon. There's a variety of sources, many of which conflict, but every single one is a lens through which we can see the 40K setting."
-- Aaron Dembski-Bowden

... bottom line, 40k is what you make of it. The gamers and the readers are supposed to take possession of the setting and shape it as befits their individual preferences and purposes. It took me quite a while to "get this", for like many I came to the franchise believing that everything was supposed to fit together - an "urban myth" that even now is still propagated by some because that's what they were told from other fans ..

I'm a bit confused, though. Isn't the option "everything yet nothing" essentially the same as "things you agree with, nothing more"?

What bugs me is when people are stopping to use their brain and starting to hit you with the quotes from authors (fe: "Corax said that only Horus and perhaps Sanguinius could take doen Angron",even after authors told us that all P are simillar ), which kills the creative thinking...And don't forget OTHER RACES ARE WUSSES book policy...At least they are not in their own codexes...


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 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:


Everything is considered canon except things that were replaced by newer versions. But there are also part of the fluff that you can form your own opinion of that is also considered canon.

Why do you exclude older versions? IMHO newer isn't better (like music)and I would be damned if I replace some of the fluff established eons ago...

Everything is suppose to be canon but the important thing is that its whatever you agree with

Doesn't that effectively mean the opposite, though? Canon, at least in the context of what we are referring to here, denotes a set of material that forms an established and universally accepted worldview, does it not?

Maybe should've posted ADB's sentence in its entirety ...

"It's all true and none of it's true" means, at its core: "There is no canon. There's a variety of sources, many of which conflict, but every single one is a lens through which we can see the 40K setting."

In any case, I thought that this exchange was rather entlightening.

In b4 the Lynata "there is no canon" thing we get. O wait....

Anyway, I consider everything with the seal of approval by GW to be part of the Warhammer 40,000 universe.

 Harriticus wrote:
In b4 the Lynata "there is no canon" thing we get. O wait....

Anyway, I consider everything with the seal of approval by GW to be part of the Warhammer 40,000 universe.

So you take Draigo crap seriously ? Sorry for using that example, but this is the first thing that comes to my mind...

There is so much to not take seriously in this setting.
Enjoy what you like, yet be prepared that there will always be conflicts somewhere with it.
Also note that the canon cannon does not truly exist here.

 DarthMarko wrote:

 Harriticus wrote:
In b4 the Lynata "there is no canon" thing we get. O wait....

Anyway, I consider everything with the seal of approval by GW to be part of the Warhammer 40,000 universe.

So you take Draigo crap seriosly ? Sorry for using that example, but this is the first thing that comes to my mind...

I don't take it seriously, it's terrible fluff. But it's still fluff.

Heyyy, fun facet of profanity filters: if the forbidden word is in a URL, you can't link to the page! So here: http://bit.ly/B9ZPx

It's an excellent post about the concept of canon, and how Doctor Who is explicitly stated not to have one (and could not have one if it tried). I tend to apply a lot of the ideas here to how I think of 40k canon as well.

 DarthMarko wrote:

 Harriticus wrote:
In b4 the Lynata "there is no canon" thing we get. O wait....

Anyway, I consider everything with the seal of approval by GW to be part of the Warhammer 40,000 universe.

So you take Draigo crap seriously ? Sorry for using that example, but this is the first thing that comes to my mind...

On the Draigo issue, if it bothers you so much, you might perhaps look at the new Chaos Codex. A "throw-away" line in the fluff speaks of a silver knight who went around the Warp until he was corrupted by Slaanesh.

Is that Draigo? In typical GW fashion the answer would be, "Could Be...Or Maybe not."

You see - GW (along with a bunch of other RPG companies) finally hit upon a formula that works for them.

If you can accept the fact that the goal of every company is to maximize profit, then you can see how this might work.

You don't like Draigo (and perhaps the Grey Knights too). But there's someone else who Really Really Really likes Draigo.

GW doesn't have to take a position on the matter really. It wants to sell to you.

It wants to sell to the Draigo-lover as well.

You both "pay the bills" so to speak and proceed to argue about it with each other while GW walks away, checks in hand.

I voted for "Rulebook + Codexes + Black Library + FFG + DOW, etc" cause it and "Everything... yet nothing" are the same.

Anyway I will put this to you, the 6th edition rulebook has this on the galaxy map:


As you can see, the galaxy map has the Calixis sector on it. Calixis sector was created by FFG. FFG features the Blood Ravens and Red Scorpion in their Deathwatch rpg. They will also feature the Tanith First and Only in their Only War rpg.

The Different FFG settings are all linked together. Blood Ravens are from the DOW games. Red Scorpions are from FW. Tanith first and only are from BL.

So ergo, All FFG material, FW, DOW and BL are canon.

The only thing I have an exception in not taking is the crap written by Goto. I will accept it, with reluctance! I believe in taking the video game fluff as was shown in the video games over the novels written by Goto for the video games.

Anyway, new fluff takes precedence and even retcons older fluff.

There is no canon; a not-so-clever design by GW because apparently 40K fans are a bunch of bawling babies who will stop buying 40K products if they're told that their female-bi-sexual-space-marine army wouldn't actually exist in the game's fictional background.

Most people take the bits that they like and ignore the stuff they dont

 Zakiriel wrote:

How much canon can the canon cannon cannon when the canon cannon can cannon canon?

 DarthMarko wrote:

Why do you exclude older versions? IMHO newer isn't better (like music)and I would be damned if I replace some of the fluff established eons ago...

Because newer version of the same stuff retcon older i return ( see Ferrus Manus, before missing and now dead, Necrons now and Necrons before ), of course you can always discard new fluff for older if you don't like it.

To paraphrase 'living colour' ...

"Everything's permissable, nothing is real."

It is all canon, and at the same time, none of it is. That's the advantage of a narrative setting. It's up to YOU, the player, to determine what is 'canon' for your group of players.

Thanks for all the contributions to my little question! The consensus seems to be that in a Smoky the Bear-esque way, only YOU! can decide the canon.

Rulebook + Codexes + Black Library,

they are all official GW products,.. yet some do not agree with the other even when official,..

I realy realy like the Dawn of War storyline,.. It has even been adopted by GW in official novels,... though i consider this as my own fluff which might at some point come into conflict with gw...

It seems to me that GW intends no canon whatsoever. However, my own rules are:

(1) Is it published by GW, a GW affiliate, or under license from GW? If so, it is "canonical."

(2) Is there a contradiction between "canonical" sources? If so, compare the sources for: (a) specificity, (b) comprehensiveness, (c) age (where more recent sources prevail), and (d) coolness, in that order of weight.

"Everything is canon, but not all canon is true"

Some things that sound really stupid ARE still canon, but that doesn't mean it isn't twisted propoganda or an exaggerated tale.

I'm on the side of in universe perspective, the characters in 40k dont know as much about the universe as we the readers do, so a comment about a primarch in the 41st millennium about a primarch does not hold as much weight as a characters opinions from the 30th millennium.

As posted before, in the index astartes ferrus was not.killed as such, it was heavily.implied.that he was.massively wounded and taken (possibly) to mars to be fixed, now we know what happened to him, he be dead, the opinion from the 41st millennium is.still true, to the character who expressed it, but we the.reader know.what happened.

Everything is potentially correct and can be referenced... except C.S. Goto.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Everything is potentially correct and can be referenced... except C.S. Goto.

Hence the choice "Things you agree with, and nothing more!"

I do like the ambiguous aspect of it all. Instead of the Canon Cannon like someone posted, we get to interpret it our own way.

Matt Ward is not Canon, fething grey knights worshiping khorne is bs. aside from that though, it's open to interpretation.

Uh, GK worshipping Khorne is a fan-invention, not something Ward wrote. That the GK need the blood of martyrs for some dark ritual or another to ensure their sanctity is not particularly Wardian... but it is very much in keeping with how the GK operate.

That's true, a lot of stuff is artificially inflated by internet scuttlebutt. I also don't quite get what makes Goto that "bad" that he has become the premiere example for BL shenanigans (I used his name in this capacity myself, but only as it tends to evoke a different reaction from the community).

Did Goto do something much worse than a lot of other BL authors? Is it the frequency? Or was it just because he did it to the Space Marines? For I'm under the impression that a lot of people are much more willing to forget about rather drastic deviations made by different authors to other armies.

 Lynata wrote:
That's true, a lot of stuff is artificially inflated by internet scuttlebutt. I also don't quite get what makes Goto that "bad" that he has become the premiere example for BL shenanigans (I used his name in this capacity myself, but only as it tends to evoke a different reaction from the community).

Did Goto do something much worse than a lot of other BL authors? Is it the frequency? Or was it just because he did it to the Space Marines? For I'm under the impression that a lot of people are much more willing to forget about rather drastic deviations made by different authors to other armies.

From what I've heard, the dislike for Goto is that he puts multilasers in everything. Even in Carnifexes. Majority of BL don't do that.

 Psienesis wrote:
Uh, GK worshipping Khorne is a fan-invention, not something Ward wrote. That the GK need the blood of martyrs for some dark ritual or another to ensure their sanctity is not particularly Wardian... but it is very much in keeping with how the GK operate.

Only since Mr Ward rewrote their codex - before him ritual sacrifce and strange warpcraft was not really how they rolled....

I now operate on the there is my canon and that may or may not be supported by GW publciations - so I prefer the older version of Grey Knights, but love thier newer Dark Eldar. They don;t really care about it - so I don't either just take what I like and want

 Lynata wrote:

Did Goto do something much worse than a lot of other BL authors? Is it the frequency?

He just wrote his novels without:
-reading basic 40k fluff first
-taking much of reality from it ( don't get me wrong, even as it is 40k is quite reslistic and that is why I love it )

I mean... he made Eldar Shuriken cannons fire bullets, Terminators making flips with their tons heavy armor and he made Land Raiders turn into Razboracks and back ( how is that even possible I don't know )... and that is just some of example here. While his stories are not so bad the canon parts are.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:From what I've heard, the dislike for Goto is that he puts multilasers in everything. Even in Carnifexes.

But that's just it - from what I've heard (from the people who actually read the books), the Carnifex did not happen. The internet made it up, just like the Khornate GKs.
Goto puts Multilasers on Space Marines, and the internet suddenly has him put them everywhere because hyperbole is funny.
That doesn't make the Multilaser Marines less silly, but it also doesn't really make them stand out from the BL norm ...

Brother Captain Alexander wrote:He just wrote his novels without:
-reading basic 40k fluff first
-taking much of reality from it ( don't get me wrong, even as it is 40k is quite reslistic and that is why I love it )

I mean... he made Eldar Shuriken cannons fire bullets, Terminators making flips with their tons heavy armor and he made Land Raiders turn into Razboracks and back ( how is that even possible I don't know )... and that is just some of example here. While his stories are not so bad the canon parts are.

I'm under the impression that a number of authors does that (not reading basic fluff)...
But perhaps it is a matter of frequency, then - Goto sticking out more because whilst it happens everywhere, it happens more often in his books, and thus is easier to notice?

Abnett also seems to come up with a lot of deviations, but from what I can tell people generally do not perceive them as critical as they are a bit ... more subtle, and perhaps better embedded in the story. Maybe we have something like a "suspension of canon", similar to the suspension of disbelief, just referring to an individual willingness to overlook minor inconsistencies whilst maintaining lines that shouldn't be crossed.

I do not get why Marines with Multilasers is that bad. Sure, it is not an option in their Codex, but it is not that far fetched that some marines somewhere would use them sometimes. It's like Space Marine computer game giving Marines grenade launchers. It is nothing like Ward butchering Necron and GK fluff, and all the shenanigans in HH books.

 Lynata wrote:

Corporal_Reznov wrote:From what I've heard, the dislike for Goto is that he puts multilasers in everything. Even in Carnifexes.

But that's just it - from what I've heard (from the people who actually read the books), the Carnifex did not happen. The internet made it up, just like the Khornate GKs.
Goto puts Multilasers on Space Marines, and the internet suddenly has him put them everywhere because hyperbole is funny.
That doesn't make the Multilaser Marines less silly, but it also doesn't really make them stand out from the BL norm ...

Khornate Gk's are meant to describe the GK's as written by Ward. Not that they worship Khorne.

I'm under the impression that a number of authors does that (not reading basic fluff)...
But perhaps it is a matter of frequency, then - Goto sticking out more because whilst it happens everywhere, it happens more often in his books, and thus is easier to notice?

Abnett also seems to come up with a lot of deviations, but from what I can tell people generally do not perceive them as critical as they are a bit ... more subtle, and perhaps better embedded in the story. Maybe we have something like a "suspension of canon", similar to the suspension of disbelief, just referring to an individual willingness to overlook minor inconsistencies whilst maintaining lines that shouldn't be crossed.

Goto feths up. Bl authors don't change Eldar ammunition.

Also Abnett's deviations are minor things that can fit in the Imperium very easily.

There is also another aspect - if a BL author makes up / changes things and people like it - it can more easily be accepted and treated as canon.

This precisely what happens with some of the newer codexes - some people (myself on occassion) don't like some of the changes...

Whereas IMO the "changes" I find are more often in BL an expansion to the very limted "canon" lore that already exists -I think both Abnet and ADB are very good at this - making stuff up that actually adds to the universe and people accept as making sense/ making it better?

But still its all there to be accepted or discarded as you will............

I've always thought of a Marine with a Multilaser as someone from the Brotherhood of Steel (in Fallout) toting around one of the Gatling Laser weapons you can get.

*shrug*

Abnett has things that exist in no other aspect of 40K, such as servitors that have intelligent, emotion-laden conversations with people, including humor and sarcasm. The Chapter Masters of current (M41) Space Marine Chapters being referred to as "Primarchs". Guardsmen (of a light infantry/scout battalion) in Carapace armor.

And GK have always been grim. Dire, humorless, grim bastards, who have (through Very Secretive Means) been able to carry Warp-tainted weapons, ancient grimoires, bound Daemons and other Warp-based shenanigans without fear of corruption. That a badly-written, but perfectly feasible, scenario is presented that explains how its done is really not that bad.

Grey Knights are *not* your friends!

I was never that bothererd about Marines using multi-lasers.

I prefered the "Very secretaive means" and purity aspect of the older Grey Knights fluff.

Grey Knights have never been your firends - agreed - I am not sure why anyone thought they were. Like the Sisters their purity made them uncompromising and ruthless.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:Khornate Gk's are meant to describe the GK's as written by Ward. Not that they worship Khorne.

Apparently not, or at least not in all cases. See amudkipz' post.

It's the internet. Things get out of control here.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:Goto feths up. Bl authors don't change Eldar ammunition.
Also Abnett's deviations are minor things that can fit in the Imperium very easily.

I would disagree. Other authors may not change Eldar ammunition, but they change a lot of other things. Acts of Faith being actual divine magic, Battle Sister novices trained in the Schola rather than by their Order, entire convents being infiltrated by Genestealers, ...
This goes for Abnett as well. I don't buy "Servitor-Navigators", and I don't buy incompatible lasgun chargepacks. I'm also sceptical to Navy techs repairing their own fighters (AdMech job?) and I don't accept Navy warships having their own Storm Trooper contingent. Psienesis listed some more stuff.

Mr. Morden has a point - it's all subjective, and group consensus may lead to some contradictions being accepted easier than others. That's why I mentioned Space Marines. When the topic of "messed up canon" comes up, the majority seems to think of Draigo, Khornate GKs or Multilasers, yet there is so much more that just gets ignored because whatever was changed wasn't as popular to begin with. Or at least so it appears.

Mr Morden wrote:I prefered the "Very secretaive means" and purity aspect of the older Grey Knights fluff.
Grey Knights have never been your firends - agreed - I am not sure why anyone thought they were. Like the Sisters their purity made them uncompromising and ruthless.

Agreed on both.

Psienesis wrote:
Abnett has things that exist in no other aspect of 40K, such as servitors that have intelligent, emotion-laden conversations with people, including humor and sarcasm.

Possibly modified.

The Chapter Masters of current (M41) Space Marine Chapters being referred to as "Primarchs".

That would be a genuine mistake.

Guardsmen (of a light infantry/scout battalion) in Carapace armor.

They may come from a well equipped world or managed to get the armor by accident.

Just look at this PDF special forces :

Lynata wrote:

Corporal_Reznov wrote:Khornate Gk's are meant to describe the GK's as written by Ward. Not that they worship Khorne.

Apparently not, or at least not in all cases. See amudkipz' post.

I'm going by what 1d4chan says which is what most people use.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:Goto feths up. Bl authors don't change Eldar ammunition.
Also Abnett's deviations are minor things that can fit in the Imperium very easily.

entire convents being infiltrated by Genestealers, ...

Why not? These guys manage to infiltrate entire planets. With a lot of work, its possible they could infect a convent

This goes for Abnett as well. I don't buy "Servitor-Navigators",

Why not? Hell there are apparently artificial means to make Warp travel not rely on Navigators but the Navigators keep destroying them.

and I don't buy incompatible lasgun chargepacks.

It makes sense to me.

I'm also sceptical to Navy techs repairing their own fighters (AdMech job?)

The Space Marine video game has IG asking for a manual so as to repair their vehicles since there is not a single Tech priest around. Those navy techs could be under or trained by the Admech on the ship so as to repair the little things so he can focus on the bigger things.

and I don't accept Navy warships having their own Storm Trooper contingent.

I really can't comment on this.

Will be bugging out of this discussion as I can't keep up with you guys. Got a lot of projects(college work) to deal with :-(

Incidentally, it was Rawne wearing the Carapace, who is the XO of the Tanith First-and-Only.

 HerbaciousT wrote:
First of all, C.S.Goto can die in a hole.

And this is a common question, id suggest searching for threads on this sort of thing, as Im anticipating a bit of complaining directed at you. Just a heads up mate.

Anyway, a lot of different sources, and even different bits of fluff from the same source can contradict each other. A lot of the BL books contradict each other, due to all the different authors for example.

In my head, it just represents how chaotic the 40k universe is. Its so big and there is so much going on, that there are bound to be conflicting perspectives on single events, and what happened where and with who.

I guess generally GW (i.e. codices and rulebooks) is the top source, then the BL, and then other sources I dont know start to fall in.

C.S.Goto?

Corporal_Reznov wrote:I'm going by what 1d4chan says which is what most people use.

Whoah there, one moment ... really now?

You do realise that the articles on 1d4chan, whilst usually rather hilarious, are full of hyperbole or even outright false? <Example>
All wikis (yes, even Lexicanum) are "dangerous" as their content relies entirely on the fan who edited the respective article. If possible, always consult the source directly. That being said, in general 4chan is where you go for fun, not for info.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:Why not? These guys manage to infiltrate entire planets. With a lot of work, its possible they could infect a convent

Because Sisters are not recruited from one planet but from all across the galaxy. They are then shipped off to the Schola Progenium facilities to undergo genetic purity testing before the many years of training and indoctrination, and then - if they are part of the lucky few who get picked - beginning their novitiate in another convent, followed by taking their oaths in the Ecclesiarchal Palace on Terra, from where they are then sent to their final assignments.

Yeah, may as well turn a Space Marine Chapter into Genestealer-hybrids.

Okay, I suppose stuff like this would not be entirely impossible (if, say, half the Imperium was already infected), but it is quite a stretch as it would necessitate a lot of agents on all the various levels of Imperial authority to cover up the infestation. Given that the novel ended with a random Storm Trooper soloing an entire Order of power-armoured Battle Sisters, I'll rather just gonna dismiss the entire book from my perception.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:Why not?

Psyker cyborgs? Does not compute. You need a soul and very specific skills and most of all a lot of willpower to properly interact with the Warp, and lobotomisation tends to reduce servitors into drooling slave-machines. I don't think anyone would trust such a thing with contacting the Empyrean; Psykers are feared enough already.
On the other hand, if Psykers could continue to operate even in the vegetative state of a servitor, I'd ask why the Imperium doesn't just turn any Psyker into one, when they're that much easier to control.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:The Space Marine video game has IG asking for a manual so as to repair their vehicles since there is not a single Tech priest around.

Ah, that would be the same game that made the "998. model Godwyn-pattern boltgun, cal 0.75" (Marine Codex) into a "cal .998 Godwyn-pattern boltgun", that had meltas work like a shotgun rather than firing a stream, and a 2nd Company Captain that was not the guy who was supposed to be in charge of the 2nd Company if you go by the Codex chart (later "explained" by a THQ rep as the game taking place in an "alternate timeline" ) ...?

Don't get me wrong, I thought the game was awesome. Had lots of fun in single- and multiplayer, but there's a number of deviations from GW fluff.
Which doesn't mean that either fluff is "false". It just means that we should acknowledge that there will be ... differences in interpretation, "different lenses" as Aaron Dembski-Bowden put it. And it's up to us to pick which one we want to look through.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:Got a lot of projects(college work) to deal with :-(

Ow, good luck with that!
Feel free to poke me/us whenever you feel like picking up the talk again.

 Lynata wrote:

Corporal_Reznov wrote:I'm going by what 1d4chan says which is what most people use.

Whoah there, one moment ... really now?

You do realise that the articles on 1d4chan, whilst usually rather hilarious, are full of hyperbole or even outright false? <Example>
All wikis (yes, even Lexicanum) are "dangerous" as their content relies entirely on the fan who edited the respective article. If possible, always consult the source directly. That being said, in general 4chan is where you go for fun, not for info.

*Groan* When people say Khornate Knight, they mean what 1d4chan says about the Ward GK's. Understand now?

Corporal_Reznov wrote:Why not? These guys manage to infiltrate entire planets. With a lot of work, its possible they could infect a convent

lynata wrote:Because Sisters are not recruited from one planet but from all across the galaxy. They are then shipped off to the Schola Progenium facilities to undergo genetic purity testing before the many years of training and indoctrination, and then - if they are part of the lucky few who get picked - beginning their novitiate in another convent, followed by taking their oaths in the Ecclesiarchal Palace on Terra, from where they are then sent to their final assignments.

Yeah, may as well turn a Space Marine Chapter into Genestealer-hybrids.

Okay, I suppose stuff like this would not be entirely impossible (if, say, half the Imperium was already infected), but it is quite a stretch as it would necessitate a lot of agents on all the various levels of Imperial authority to cover up the infestation. Given that the novel ended with a random Storm Trooper soloing an entire Order of power-armoured Battle Sisters, I'll rather just gonna dismiss the entire book from my perception.

Seriously? ha ha ha that is hilarious. But I think you're exaggerating.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:Why not?

Psyker cyborgs? Does not compute. You need a soul and very specific skills and most of all a lot of willpower to properly interact with the Warp, and lobotomisation tends to reduce servitors into drooling slave-machines. I don't think anyone would trust such a thing with contacting the Empyrean; Psykers are feared enough already.
On the other hand, if Psykers could continue to operate even in the vegetative state of a servitor, I'd ask why the Imperium doesn't just turn any Psyker into one, when they're that much easier to control.

 Lynata wrote:
I would disagree. Other authors may not change Eldar ammunition, but they change a lot of other things. Acts of Faith being actual divine magic, Battle Sister novices trained in the Schola rather than by their Order, entire convents being infiltrated by Genestealers, ...
This goes for Abnett as well. I don't buy "Servitor-Navigators", and I don't buy incompatible lasgun chargepacks. I'm also sceptical to Navy techs repairing their own fighters (AdMech job?) and I don't accept Navy warships having their own Storm Trooper contingent. Psienesis listed some more stuff.

Mr. Morden has a point - it's all subjective, and group consensus may lead to some contradictions being accepted easier than others. That's why I mentioned Space Marines. When the topic of "messed up canon" comes up, the majority seems to think of Draigo, Khornate GKs or Multilasers, yet there is so much more that just gets ignored because whatever was changed wasn't as popular to begin with. Or at least so it appears.

And this is exactly why people should check basic 40k fluff before they sit down and write something new. They should even have a overseer or some kind of fluff group to whom they can tell their ideas about some new stuff in the fluff they want to write and it will be to thing guys to analyze this and tell them if it's ok or not.

With C.S. Goto that was not the case because he was given ultimate freedom to write and as a result we have got a lot of things that doesn't make sense. Granted, other authors also failed here and there but none of them actually gave Tyranids Human guns to use. With Matt Ward it was all about bad ideas, he tried to write a good story but he did it in a way that nobody or large part of community wouldn't like it ( Draigo beign badass, Grey Knights needed blood for protection, new Necrons etc.. .).

BL and Codex authors should have someone who knows the fluff better than them to check out of them and stop them from repeating the same mistakes. Vetock is doing 40k fluff nicely for being Fantasy writer, so he must have some kind of help or a control.

So yeah this discussion was part of the reason for my question.

It seems like there is more consistency in the rulebook + codexes (sp?), when you branch out from there the authors are given some leeway and BAM MULTI-LASERS on MULTI-LASERS!

Speaking of GKs, I never understood their portrayal in "The Killing Ground" by Graham McNeall. They seem like positively nice guys!

4TheG8erGood wrote:
So yeah this discussion was part of the reason for my question.

It seems like there is more consistency in the rulebook + codexes (sp?), when you branch out from there the authors are given some leeway and BAM MULTI-LASERS on MULTI-LASERS!

Speaking of GKs, I never understood their portrayal in "The Killing Ground" by Graham McNeall. They seem like positively nice guys!

Spoiler:

They even leave the planet pretty much alone after slaying some daemon infested creatures, opposed to the scorched earth policy that I remember them usually employing. After they first Battle for Armageddon the GKs and Inquisition killed several billion people just to keep things under wraps!

Only Goto is actually putting multilasers everywhere. rulebooks and codex are "consistent" cause they just repeat fluff while only adding a few things here and there and then having retcons from time to time which destroys consistency.

40k has no canon system. Ignoring C.S. goto's crap, the inconsistencies in other novels can be rationalized seeing as the 40k galaxy is big and not everything will be the same across the galaxy or Imperium. Not everyone has the same feelings or attitude on how to handle an issue which adds depth and personality.

And I already proved that on the first page that GW accepts FW, FFG, BL and DOW as parts of the 40k verse and even do happen and take place in the same galaxy.

Other sins of C.S. Goto that get rather less press than the Multilaser thing;

In Warrior Brood, we have an Assault Marine who not only has the ability to outright fly with his jump pack, he duels a Harridan bio-titan with a chainsword and wins.

In the same novel, we have an Inquisitor surviving a drop in a Space Marine drop pod.

We also have an Inquisitor who is a powerful enough psyker to send an astropathic message despite being literally surrounded by synapse tyranids.

We also have a sequel to a book whose ending I can't quite remember past the point where there were three Marines and an Inquisitor in a bunker on a planet that was otherwise populated solely by Tyranids.

In Eldar Prophesy, we have an even longer list of sins, not the least of which being that the book has so many made up words its impossible to read without turning to the appendix every other sentence.

We have Craftworld Eldar who are not psykers.

We have a Craftworld Eldar Farseer who is not a psyker and inherited his position from his father.

We have Craftworld Eldar who worship Slaanesh.

We have a Craftworld Eldar who commits suicide by breaking his soul stone.

We have an Eldar go from being a normal citizen to spontaneously becoming (not even being absorbed by) a Warp Spider pheonix lord. The fact that he's named "Lykhosidae" is lame and lazy, but not unforgivable if not for the rest of the book.

We have Craftworld Eldar Guardians who are referred to as "Household troops" and a "Standing army".

We have a Dire Avenger exarch who knows that the planet's rulers are Slaanesh worshippers and does nothing about it out of fear.

We have a Craftworld without an Infinity Circuit (despite those things being the core around which a Craftworld is built).

I'm sure there are other things that I'm forgetting.

No, none of this is "internet lore". These are all things that I have read, personally, myself in his books.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

We have an Eldar go from being a normal citizen to spontaneously becoming (not even being absorbed by) a Warp Spider phoenix lord. The fact that he's named "Lykhosidae" is lame and lazy, but not unforgivable if not for the rest of the book.

So that's where the warp spider phoenix lord is from.

Thanks

Coule of bits i am not sure are that out of wack

We have Craftworld Eldar who are not psykers.
Thats unlikely but on the other hand, transition from Eldar to Dark Eldar who don't use their psychic powers is now in the novels......and the reverse

We have Craftworld Eldar who worship Slaanesh. Thats possible - there is a whole Craftworld that falls in the previous Demons Codex (IIRC) due to a girl being corrupted by Chaos - plus there are references in the Eldar Codexes to those who still follow the old ways of excess - the Path system is supposed to safeguard against this but its not infaliable and one of the few ways to permanently escape Slaanesh would be to pledge yourself to one of the other Powers, or else maintain your existance by serving the Choas Lord itself.

 Psienesis wrote:
Everything. There is no such thing as canon in 40K. Actually, it's all canon..

This is such a cop-out. I'm not blaming you for it. GW likes to hold onto this idea.


The reality is that their editorial vision is so poor that they can't keep control of their own license and have given up trying, haha.

I have an order of canon.

1) Codices(newest taking priority over old)

2) Rulebook

3) Black Library

I usually accept most of codex and rulebook as well as some of the BL books though nothing HH mainly I refuse to believe Ferrus i dead plus I preferred the Heresy when it was mostly a mystery .

 Grey Templar wrote:
I have an order of canon.

1) Codices(newest taking priority over old)

2) Rulebook

3) Black Library

I agree with this order. However, I also tend to agree that if the rulebook has different fluff than the codex but the rulebook is newer I take the BRB fluff.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:*Groan* When people say Khornate Knight, they mean what 1d4chan says about the Ward GK's. Understand now?

So, what I have been saying all the time.

Did you just not understand what I wrote there? It really comes across as if you just did a complete 180 there.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:Seriously? ha ha ha that is hilarious. But I think you're exaggerating.

On what grounds, specifically?
The infiltration thing (which you just posted "why not" on) is the main plot of the novel. Or were you referring to the info on how the Sisterhood recruits in GW fluff?

Corporal_Reznov wrote:Link to the THQ thing, please?

There you go.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:Also different weapon patterns fixes that issue seeing as different patterns may not work in the same way. Also, it could have just been a mistake. still just because they depict weapons wrong doesn't mean that the source is wrong.

The "different patterns" excuse does not work when both sources say it's a Godwyn-pattern.

And no, it does not mean that Space Marine is wrong. I have specifically said as much in the very post you just answered:
"Which doesn't mean that either fluff is "false". It just means that we should acknowledge that there will be ... differences in interpretation, "different lenses" as Aaron Dembski-Bowden put it. And it's up to us to pick which one we want to look through."

Corporal_Reznov wrote:IIRC, the Only War rpg has it that IG can repair their vehicles. 15 hours has people who do rudimentary repairs to machines. Seriously, Lynata, do you really expect the mechanicus to fix everything mechanical on one planet when it has more important things to focus on?

That is how the IG Codex describes it.
As for Only War - funny thing that you mention it, should I put together a list on where that source clashes with GW? Female Vostroyan Firstborn, Guard Medics carrying the Marine Apothecary's geneseed helix icon, all lasguns and -pistols instead of just the Triplex having variable charges, ...


Really, all it comes down to is that there is no such thing as a definite answer for any detail in 40k. The stuff that actually is sacrosanct and even enforced by GW (such as the Emperor being a half-dead guy) probably fits on a single page or A4 paper. Considering all the material that has been put out over the years by all the different studios and licensees, this is very, very, very little. Gav Thorpe once wrote an explanation on his blog here.
I think the vast majority of the inconsistencies aren't even noticed as most people tend to be rather focused in what they read. It is only when several fans get together and exchange their experiences - such as on a forum like dakka - that conflicts arise.

 Lynata wrote:

Corporal_Reznov wrote:*Groan* When people say Khornate Knight, they mean what 1d4chan says about the Ward GK's. Understand now?

So, what I have been saying all the time.

Did you just not understand what I wrote there? It really comes across as if you just did a complete 180 there.

What the hell are you talking about? I don't even remember what the hell we were arguing about when it comes to the Khornate Knights.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:Seriously? ha ha ha that is hilarious. But I think you're exaggerating.

On what grounds, specifically?
The infiltration thing (which you just posted "why not" on) is the main plot of the novel. Or were you referring to the info on how the Sisterhood recruits in GW fluff?

The killing thing, of course.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:Link to the THQ thing, please?

There you go.

Okay. doesn't change the fact that the IG being able to do rudimentary repairs is now canon. Also the 15 hours novel shows what I've been saying is true.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:Also different weapon patterns fixes that issue seeing as different patterns may not work in the same way. Also, it could have just been a mistake. still just because they depict weapons wrong doesn't mean that the source is wrong.

The "different patterns" excuse does not work when both sources say it's a Godwyn-pattern.

Fine.

And no, it does not mean that Space Marine is wrong. I have specifically said as much in the very post you just answered:
"Which doesn't mean that either fluff is "false". It just means that we should acknowledge that there will be ... differences in interpretation, "different lenses" as Aaron Dembski-Bowden put it. And it's up to us to pick which one we want to look through."

Then why is it that all of your posts come of as condescending towards non-GW fluff and you always lecturing people? 40k is a big place, almost anything can happen in it and almost be accepted easily.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:IIRC, the Only War rpg has it that IG can repair their vehicles. 15 hours has people who do rudimentary repairs to machines. Seriously, Lynata, do you really expect the mechanicus to fix everything mechanical on one planet when it has more important things to focus on?

That is how the IG Codex describes it.

Codexes say a lot of things. Doesn't mean that they are the full truth on the ground. according to you, the Ig shouldn't be able to even clean or maintain their lasguns! Only the tech priests can and should do it! Common sense shouldn't exist cause consistency of the holy codex.

As for Only War - funny thing that you mention it, should I put together a list on where that source clashes with GW? Female Vostroyan Firstborn, Guard Medics carrying the Marine Apothecary's geneseed helix icon, all lasguns and -pistols instead of just the Triplex having variable charges, ...

Shows up in the codex and includes Bl fluff, so canon, despite your constant complaints.

Really, all it comes down to is that there is no such thing as a definite answer for any detail in 40k. The stuff that actually is sacrosanct and even enforced by GW (such as the Emperor being a half-dead guy) probably fits on a single page or A4 paper. Considering all the material that has been put out over the years by all the different studios and licensees, this is very, very, very little. Gav Thorpe once wrote an explanation on his blog here.
I think the vast majority of the inconsistencies aren't even noticed as most people tend to be rather focused in what they read. It is only when several fans get together and exchange their experiences - such as on a forum like dakka - that conflicts arise.

Another one of your constant posting and lecturing of crap I already know. How original .

I would say that the rulebook and codicies are more cannon, in the sense that they outline how the universe works, and tell us in-universe facts like "Guardsmen are armed with lasguns, not ultra-powerful deathrays that can destroy planets". However, I do consider the stories to be about as cannon as any other source (May or may not have happened), and is just the view of the codex's race.

I swear to Gork this thread pops up once every 3 days. The only difference between this thread and the others is the poll.

Selym wrote:I would say that the rulebook and codicies are more cannon, in the sense that they outline how the universe works, and tell us in-universe facts like "Guardsmen are armed with lasguns, not ultra-powerful deathrays that can destroy planets". However, I do consider the stories to be about as cannon as any other source (May or may not have happened), and is just the view of the codex's race.

Novels have IG armed with Lasguns too. They don't change that. The stories are showing and telling us of events and how worlds are on the ground in the 40k galaxy. Codexes just give out an outline.

gpfunk wrote:I swear to Gork this thread pops up once every 3 days. The only difference between this thread and the others is the poll.

Completely agree with you! Its annoying.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:

Selym wrote:I would say that the rulebook and codicies are more cannon, in the sense that they outline how the universe works, and tell us in-universe facts like "Guardsmen are armed with lasguns, not ultra-powerful deathrays that can destroy planets". However, I do consider the stories to be about as cannon as any other source (May or may not have happened), and is just the view of the codex's race.

Novels have IG armed with Lasguns too. They don't change that. The stories are showing and telling us of events and how worlds are on the ground in the 40k galaxy. Codexes just give out an outline.

That's what I was saying.

 gpfunk wrote:
I swear to Gork this thread pops up once every 3 days. The only difference between this thread and the others is the poll.

Sorry gpfunk! I tried to use the search function and while the arguments covered in here may be in other posts, I couldn't find a definitive answer! Hopefully new threads won't pop up as often now that there is one with a fancy poll and the words "40K Canon" right in the title.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:

Codexes say a lot of things. Doesn't mean that they are the full truth on the ground. according to you, the Ig shouldn't be able to even clean or maintain their lasguns! Only the tech priests can and should do it! Common sense shouldn't exist cause consistency of the holy codex.

Surprisingly, this is a fairly accurate take on the Imperium and the Mechanicus' take on the whole matter. Sarcasm ignored, of course.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:What the hell are you talking about? I don't even remember what the hell we were arguing about when it comes to the Khornate Knights.

Okay. Recap:

Me: The internet is full of hyperbole, citing the "Khornate GKs" as an example.
You: Claiming that this does not actually refer to GKs worshipping Khorne but to GKs as written by Ward.
Me: Pointing to a post on the same page from a dakkanaut who says exactly that.
You: Suddenly claiming that "Khornate GKs" refers to the internet hyperbole.
Me: Confused. Pointing out that this is what I've been talking about all along.
You: Claiming memory loss.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:Okay. doesn't change the fact that the IG being able to do rudimentary repairs is now canon. Also the 15 hours novel shows what I've been saying is true.

According to the very people who write the novels you read, there is no such thing as "canon" in 40k.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:Then why is it that all of your posts come of as condescending towards non-GW fluff and you always lecturing people?

The condescending tone stems from my opinion on the material I have read, or rather a certain disappointment regarding the completely unnecessary lack of consistency between it. Either way, the tone does not change the contents of the message.

As far as the lecturing is concerned, I only do that when I deem it necessary. Like when people talk about stuff being "canon". This one thing is a personal crusade of mine, because I have come to the conclusion that the community as a whole is better off once we have everyone stopping to try and enforce their favorite book as bearing The One Truth on a given subject.

Contradictions will occur. Sometimes they can be explained, other times they should be discarded by picking your personal preference. Either way, given how GW runs the franchise, there is no such thing as a singular uniform vision of this setting. Just lots and lots of different interpretations.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:Shows up in the codex and includes Bl fluff, so canon, despite your constant complaints.

The Codex specifically sets the Triplex apart for being the one lasgun that has this feature. That's why I bring it up.
Ironically, this is actually how FFG wrote it at first as well, but then the playtesters whined in the forum and demanded variable power settings for other weapons as well - until the designers caved in and made it a standard feature of all lasguns and laspistols in the book.

And no, still not canon.

 Lynata wrote:

Corporal_Reznov wrote:What the hell are you talking about? I don't even remember what the hell we were arguing about when it comes to the Khornate Knights.

Okay. Recap:

Me: The internet is full of hyperbole, citing the "Khornate GKs" as an example.
You: Claiming that this does not actually refer to GKs worshipping Khorne but to GKs as written by Ward.
Me: Pointing to a post on the same page from a dakkanaut who says exactly that.
You: Suddenly claiming that "Khornate GKs" refers to the internet hyperbole.
Me: Confused. Pointing out that this is what I've been talking about all along.
You: Claiming memory loss.

Ah! I wasn't really paying attention to that guy. I was simply pointing out that the Khornate Knights thing came from 1d4chan.

According to the very people who write the novels you read, there is no such thing as "canon" in 40k.

Canon in that they take place in the same timeline and galaxy. Happy?

Corporal_Reznov wrote:Then why is it that all of your posts come of as condescending towards non-GW fluff and you always lecturing people?

The condescending tone stems from my opinion on the material I have read, or rather a certain disappointment regarding the completely unnecessary lack of consistency between it. Either way, the tone does not change the contents of the message.

As far as the lecturing is concerned, I only do that when I deem it necessary. Like when people talk about stuff being "canon". This one thing is a personal crusade of mine, because I have come to the conclusion that the community as a whole is better off once we have everyone stopping to try and enforce their favorite book as bearing The One Truth on a given subject.

Contradictions will occur. Sometimes they can be explained, other times they should be discarded by picking your personal preference. Either way, given how GW runs the franchise, there is no such thing as a singular uniform vision of this setting. Just lots and lots of different interpretations.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:Canon in that they take place in the same timeline and galaxy. Happy?

You do realise that your own usage of the term "canon" is not exactly in line with how it is generally understood?
You're going to create a lot of confusion that way...

[edit] Do you simply mean "official"? As in "has the license and bears the 40k stamp"?

Corporal_Reznov wrote:Funny. To me the ones who try and force their favorite book to become the one truth are the one's who dislike all other sources and just praise the holy codexes, like you.

I once was like that as well, actually.
The more explanations from the various authors and game designers actually working on the material I have found, however, the better I understood how GW actually handles the franchise. And at some point, I had an epiphany.

When I first joined the community of 40k players, I adopted the "stuff is canon" perspective simply because everyone else was acting like it's true, without even fact-checking it and simply believing what people said. Huge mistake, could've saved me a lot of frustration if I had seen it for what it was back then. This, coupled with my disappointment, is my chief reason for why I keep pressing this issue. I wouldn't want any other fan to fall in the same trap like me, just because others keep propagating this urban myth. They deserve to be told.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:*shrug* It doesn't matter at this point. GW has accepted FFG into the wider galaxy. We have to rationalize why all the guns have variable settings. Although I have to ask, is from what edition the Triplex from?

We don't "have" to rationalise anything, as FFG's material is just another option you are free to get inspired from. It doesn't supersede anything, not even fan-fiction, unless you want it to. And it changes from book to book, anyways. I well remember how variable power settings on lasguns being common was supposed to be a Chaos thing back when they released Black Crusade, explained with renegades not caring for AdMech regulations. Which was a lot closer to the original source material than what they ended up publishing in OW after caving in to player petitions.

The Triplex is mentioned in the 5E Guard Codex on page 38, as well as GW's Inquisitor RPG (free PDF here).

Corporal_Reznov wrote:You have just reversed your position from earlier! Thats not consistent! So you're obviously not Lynata !

Huh?

[quote=Lynata 513428 5398232 279c7d2a99de299f7684cd26bcebe4ed.jpegYou do realise that your own usage of the term "canon" is not exactly in line with how it is generally understood?
You're going to create a lot of confusion that way...

Corporal_Reznov wrote:*sigh* You know Lynata, its very frustrating talking to you.

That's because this is a frustrating topic.
I don't get much enjoyment out of doing this, either. Yet I feel as if I'd betray my position if I'd just give up and stop talking.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:Maybe GW will change and go with what FFG has done.

Maybe - with some of their stuff? Who knows. Gav talked about the studio occasionally adopting cool things from outside sources in his blog, too:

"If the developers and other creative folks believe a contribution by an author fits the bill and has an appeal to the audience, why not fold it back into the ‘game’ world – such as Gaunt’s Ghosts or characters from the Gotrek and Felix series. On the other hand, if an author has a bit of a wobbly moment, there’s no pressure to feel that it has to be accepted into the worldview promulgated by the codexes and army books."

Occasionally you can find stuff from non-studio sources embedded into GW sources. The story of Ephrael Stern, for instance, was referenced in the Liber Sororitas as well as in a "Villainy & Infamy" article on the website. And the Witchhunters Codex contains a short excerpt from one of Abnett's books.
All we can do is hope that they pick the things that we as individuals like most, and discard the things we dislike.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:I was kidding you dolt and making fun of your statement that there is no canon and then later saying that its not canon.

Well, it's not canon because there is no such thing as a canon*. That's no contradiction.

*: "canon" as understood in the shape of a uniform portrayal of the setting, which I believe is the most common definition of the term amongst fans

I'll fire you both out of a cannon at this rate. :p


(actually, I agree with Lynata, but the joke was worth it).

 Furyou Miko wrote:
I'll fire you both out of a cannon at this rate. :p


(actually, I agree with Lynata, but the joke was worth it).

To me canon is essentially accepted official fluff like Codexes, BL novels and FFG rpg's, etc. Essentially anything liscensed by GW.

Other than that go wild cause 40k fluff is filled with contradiction.


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 Lynata wrote:

Corporal_Reznov wrote:*sigh* You know Lynata, its very frustrating talking to you.

That's because this is a frustrating topic.
I don't get much enjoyment out of doing this, either. Yet I feel as if I'd betray my position if I'd just give up and stop talking.

*sigh* I can utterly agree that discussing canon sucks.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:Maybe GW will change and go with what FFG has done.

Maybe - with some of their stuff? Who knows. Gav talked about the studio occasionally adopting cool things from outside sources in his blog, too:

"If the developers and other creative folks believe a contribution by an author fits the bill and has an appeal to the audience, why not fold it back into the ‘game’ world – such as Gaunt’s Ghosts or characters from the Gotrek and Felix series. On the other hand, if an author has a bit of a wobbly moment, there’s no pressure to feel that it has to be accepted into the worldview promulgated by the codexes and army books."

Occasionally you can find stuff from non-studio sources embedded into GW sources. The story of Ephrael Stern, for instance, was referenced in the Liber Sororitas as well as in a "Villainy & Infamy" article on the website. And the Witchhunters Codex contains a short excerpt from one of Abnett's books.
All we can do is hope that they pick the things that we as individuals like most, and discard the things we dislike.

*shrug*

Corporal_Reznov wrote:I was kidding you dolt and making fun of your statement that there is no canon and then later saying that its not canon.

Well, it's not canon because there is no such thing as a canon*. That's no contradiction.

*: "canon" as understood in the shape of a uniform portrayal of the setting, which I believe is the most common definition of the term amongst fans

Canon is what is accepted as actually part of a setting and that it happened. For example, Star Trek canon is only the tv shows and movies IIRC. So for example, we don't know what happened in the time between Star Trek Insurrection and Star Trek Nemesis. The trek novels do tell us what happened but because they are not canon. They are not accepted as what actually happened in the time between the two movies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_%28fiction%29 Canon according to wikipedia

4TheG8erGood wrote:

 gpfunk wrote:
I swear to Gork this thread pops up once every 3 days. The only difference between this thread and the others is the poll.

Sorry gpfunk! I tried to use the search function and while the arguments covered in here may be in other posts, I couldn't find a definitive answer! Hopefully new threads won't pop up as often now that there is one with a fancy poll and the words "40K Canon" right in the title.

It's alright. It always ends the same in my observation. Thread goes on for a few pages, people think that GW licensed products are canon, then video games featuring 40k, then personal fluff. And then it all comes to a sudden end when one dutiful person digs up that very old GW quote where it says that you're essentially allowed to define your own canon in reference to your own hobby experience.

 gpfunk wrote:

4TheG8erGood wrote:

 gpfunk wrote:
I swear to Gork this thread pops up once every 3 days. The only difference between this thread and the others is the poll.

Sorry gpfunk! I tried to use the search function and while the arguments covered in here may be in other posts, I couldn't find a definitive answer! Hopefully new threads won't pop up as often now that there is one with a fancy poll and the words "40K Canon" right in the title.

It's alright. It always ends the same in my observation. Thread goes on for a few pages, people think that GW licensed products are canon, then video games featuring 40k, then personal fluff. And then it all comes to a sudden end when one dutiful person digs up that very old GW quote where it says that you're essentially allowed to define your own canon in reference to your own hobby experience.

I have no problem with this thinking at all. As long as people realize that their own thinking of how things are done in 40k galaxy are fanon or canon for them and aren't part of the official 40k setting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lynata, I just checked the Only War core rulebook and the Triplex pattern is the only one with a variable firing mode, unless I missed something?

Also Black Crusade has this to say:

LASGUN

[b]Produced in the trillions, the lasgun (created in hundreds of
local and Imperial patterns)[/b] varies in shape and appearance
but remains a reliable and functional infantry rifle. Though
there are more powerful weapons, few rival the lasgun’s
dependability and robustness.

Lasgun variable setting: Certain patterns of lasguns
have a variable setting option, allowing them to fi re higherpowered
bursts. This is especially true amongst the renegades
of the Screaming Vortex, who are not forced by Mechanicus
strictures to maintain their weapons to some artifi cial
standard. Lasguns may be fi red on overcharge mode, dealing
+1 Damage but using two shots worth of ammunition per
shot fi red. Additionally, they may be fi red on overload mode,
dealing +2 Damage and gaining +2 Penetration. In this case
they use four shots worth of ammunition per shot fi red, lose
Reliable, and gain Unreliable.

This makes it so that its possible that the Triplex pattern is not the only variable firing mode Lasgun in existence.

edit: Forget about it. I found it.

M36 LASGUN

Produced in a multitude of different styles and patterns, the
lasgun can be found on almost every world of the Imperium.
The M36 pattern is one of the most ubiquitous patterns.

Lasgun Variable Setting: The M36 Lasgun has a variable
setting option, allowing it to fire higher-powered bursts. It
may be changed to overcharge mode, dealing +1 Damage,
but using two shots worth of ammunition per shot fired.
Further, the lasgun may be changed to overload mode,
dealing +2 Damage and gaining +2 Penetration. In this
case, the lasgun uses four shots of ammunition per shot
fired, loses Reliable, and gains Unreliable.

It has a variable setting in relation to power/damage level of a Lasgun

whereas the Triplex pattern is versatile in that it can do a variety of things and a variety of damage:

TRIPLEX PATTERN

A highly refined variant of the standard lasgun, the triplex
offers alternative firing modes that make the weapon more
versatile on the battlefield. When fired in standard mode,
the weapon uses the Rate of Fire, Range, and Damage listed.
When fired in precision mode, the Rate of Fire is changed to
S/–/–, the Range is changed to 150m, and the weapon gains
the Accurate Quality. When fired in burst mode, the Rate of
Fire is changed to S/–/–, the Range is changed to 50m, and
the weapon gains Proven (5) and Felling (4).

Triplex Pattern Confusion
this link talks about the Triplex pattern Lasgun and a possible(probable) misprint by FFG.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:Canon is what is accepted as actually part of a setting and that it happened. For example, Star Trek canon is only the tv shows and movies IIRC. So for example, we don't know what happened in the time between Star Trek Insurrection and Star Trek Nemesis. The trek novels do tell us what happened but because they are not canon. They are not accepted as what actually happened in the time between the two movies.

The difference between Star Trek and 40k being that Star Trek has an official canon, whereas with 40k it's just something that a number of fans keep wishing for - or, in the worst case, actually acting like it does exist, thus confusing newcomers to the hobby.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:Triplex Pattern Confusion
this link talks about the Triplex pattern Lasgun and a possible(probable) misprint by FFG.

Not what I was referring to. I'm not sure if you were part of the Only War beta test, but originally the M36 lasgun - just like all the Imperial lasguns printed in FFG's books before - did not have any sort of power settings, and what the M36 has now was the only thing non-standard to the Triplex (with what makes it unique now not existing at all). The variable charge was a feature of the Triplex only, just like GW did it in their Inquisitor RPG. Then people complained about it on their forum for weeks on end, until they finally changed it and gave variable power settings to any lasgun and -pistol. Which obviously contradicts both GW's version as well as what FFG used to print in its other games.

Oh, and I remembered another conflict - Only War has Storm Troopers be attached as individuals to squads, rather than as squads to companies/regiments. Obviously, this is to offer players more classes to pick from (just like the female Vostroyan Firstborn) and as such many will not regard this as a bad thing even when they're aware of the contradiction.

It's not really worth it discussing all the small details at which the sources deviate from one another, though. All we need to be aware of is that they do, and what this means for us - namely that a uniform portrayal of the setting is simply not supported by this franchise, and that we are left with no other option than to cherrypick, resulting in numerous individual interpretations and lots of debates on forums like these.

 Lynata wrote:

Corporal_Reznov wrote:Canon is what is accepted as actually part of a setting and that it happened. For example, Star Trek canon is only the tv shows and movies IIRC. So for example, we don't know what happened in the time between Star Trek Insurrection and Star Trek Nemesis. The trek novels do tell us what happened but because they are not canon. They are not accepted as what actually happened in the time between the two movies.

The difference between Star Trek and 40k being that Star Trek has an official canon, whereas with 40k it's just something that a number of fans keep wishing for - or, in the worst case, actually acting like it does exist, thus confusing newcomers to the hobby.

*sigh* Lynata, I have already explained what influences my thinking here. canon pretty much doesn't exist for 40k! But for the purpose of debates we use official fluff and take it as canon. We don't use fluff people make up on their own.

Do you understand now? Or shall we just continue bitching to each other until I have to leave for summer vacation in a week's time
?

Corporal_Reznov wrote:Triplex Pattern Confusion
this link talks about the Triplex pattern Lasgun and a possible(probable) misprint by FFG.

Not what I was referring to.

I voted things I agree with, because 40k canon is unique in that it allows for different perspectives, and not even the most widely agreed upon information is safe in regard to the fact that the authors and the company itself can change the information however much they want. Assuming of course that they have sense not to change something so suddenly that it would widely and extremely outrage the fan base. For example: All Space Marine chapters can now have females in their ranks.

Went slightly off topic there...

Corporal_Reznov wrote:*sigh* Lynata, I have already explained what influences my thinking here. canon pretty much doesn't exist for 40k! But for the purpose of debates we use official fluff and take it as canon. We don't use fluff people make up on their own.
Do you understand now?

Well, I think so. Yet you still leave me confused. Why do you insist on using a term that is so misleading (and has been dismissed by GW designers and novel authors) instead of just going with "official fluff", which - as you have just proven - works just as well?

I'll try to keep your definition of the term in mind for the remainder of this thread, however...

Corporal_Reznov wrote:Also, according to FFG, the Triplex pattern has alternate firing modes whereas the M36 has variable power levels.

The Triplex has variable power levels in addition to the alternate firing modes, I think (not sure atm) - but that's besides the point. It's still in conflict with other sources (such as the Guard 'dex which mentions "variable power settings" to be a supposedly unique trait of the Triplex), which means people have to pick what they are going by.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:Who knows how that happened?! Maybe GW will retcon that in or we can just put it down to the Vostroyan homeworld filling out the lacking numbers with women *shrug*

Or maybe we realise that FFG, just like numerous Black Library and Forgeworld books and GW codices, will feature ideas and interpretations of the setting that deviate from one another and move on. I can expand the list of things I noticed if you really want to debate this point further, but I don't believe that this should be necessary given how obvious the differences are and that we've had people who should know state rather explicitly that the stuff isn't even meant to tie together perfectly.

"It all stems from the assumption that there’s a binding contract between author and reader to adhere to some nonexistent subjective construct or ‘true’ representation of the setting. There is no such contract, and no such objective truth."
- Andy Hoare

It can actually be rather fun to try and excuse explain deviations between multiple sources (and I occasionally do so myself!), which is made easier by the galaxy being a damn big place and the Imperium not being very standardised - yet there's a line where I feel it should simply be dismissed as incompatible, and a single option picked by the individual gamer/reader. You really can't explain everything. And even if you do come up with an explanation, that'd be just .. well, your opinion.

Let's face it, the franchise does not lend itself well to debates concerning the level of detail fans like us seek. I think it would be beneficial if all of us keep this in mind and discuss things not by bickering over which source supposedly overrides another or establishes some sort of fact, but rather simply compare our notes and voice suggestions as a source for optional inspiration, by remembering that other people are quite free to pursue different interpretations, and by clarifying the situation to new fans who may expect something different from the franchise (like I did once, and like I think you did too). Wouldn't that be the ideal solution to the whole mess?

 Lynata wrote:

]Well, I think so. Yet you still leave me confused. Why do you insist on using a term that is so misleading (and has been dismissed by GW designers and novel authors) instead of just going with "official fluff", which - as you have just proven - works just as well?

I use the term cause thats what we use on SB. It simply means official sanctioned fluff that is part of and adds to the setting. I will just use the term "official fluff" here on dakka dakka. That make you happy?

I'll try to keep your definition of the term in mind for the remainder of this thread, however...

Thank god! Cause continuing to talk to you about this loathsome topic is getting on my nerves .


I will answer the rest of your post tomorrow. Got a lot of school(college *sigh*) work to do tonight that must be done or else I will get screwed over this sem .


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Corporal_Reznov wrote:

Codexes say a lot of things. Doesn't mean that they are the full truth on the ground. according to you, the Ig shouldn't be able to even clean or maintain their lasguns! Only the tech priests can and should do it! Common sense shouldn't exist cause consistency of the holy codex.

Surprisingly, this is a fairly accurate take on the Imperium and the Mechanicus' take on the whole matter. Sarcasm ignored, of course.

Ignoring your sarcasm. Things on the ground in 40k itself don't and aren't as the codexes say. I'm sure that this post of mine will be ignored cause all that matters is the holy codex which doesn't portray the people of the Imperium as people and are instead robots.

LOL at Reznov and Lynata...

Can we al ljust get along and say that we are both right and wrong at some points?

This is 40k after all, a universe where everyone has their own PoW so it's kid of pointless to argue with that when everything is correct ( even the one that say that Dorn is not dead by missing ), except for the old fluff that was rewritten by newer one.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
I'll fire you both out of a cannon at this rate. :p

BOOM BOOM

I just wanted to ask people here for opinion about this:

 Furyou Miko wrote:

In Warrior Brood, we have an Assault Marine who not only has the ability to outright fly with his jump pack, he duels a Harridan bio-titan with a chainsword and wins.

while it does sounds silly why is this not possible?

With little training you can literally learn to slide trough the air with jump pack with regulating it's power outage ( as we have seen in 'Space Marine' ), and I have seen several time Marines literally fly in the fluff with jump packs - their solution was simple, they have just flew horizontally instead of vertically.

So with proper training and skill why wouldn't this be possible?

Brother Captain Alexander wrote:LOL at Reznov and Lynata...
Can we al ljust get along and say that we are both right and wrong at some points?
This is 40k after all, a universe where everyone has their own PoW so it's kid of pointless to argue with that when everything is correct ( even the one that say that Dorn is not dead by missing ), except for the old fluff that was rewritten by newer one.

Yeah, I'm sorry Reznov - I know I can be quite bull-headed when it comes to certain topics, "40k canon" being one of them. I certainly didn't intend to get on your nerves, and rest assured I don't get any pleasure of dragging out debates like this myself.

Brother Captain Alexander wrote:I just wanted to ask people here for opinion about this: [...]

Hah - I guess we all have our own limits where there's "unlikely but possible" on one side and "silly" on the other, in essence an individual threshold where stuff gets so heroic that we start to groan, roll our eyes and yell "Mary Sue!" Often, it does not even have to be technically impossible, just so very unlikely that we cannot reconcile it with our personal preferences regarding a degree of realism in whatever we're reading or watching at the moment.

In the quoted instance, I'd prefer to delay my own judgment until having read the fight in all its detail. If it is well written, personally I could see it work out. It certainly isn't on the same level of lulziness as a HH novel Primarch lifting a Titan. Of course, it is just as possible that the author of that novel thought "jump pack = jet pack". I have to admit I'm not even sure about this myself - whilst I know that some sources do limit jump pack distance, I have also seen others where they actually do perma-fly. The GW fluff on the subject is, as usual, a bit hazy, but the current Codex does point out that in addition to leaping across the battlefield it also permits the user to "fly short distances". Needless to say, "short distances" is very open to interpretation and could mean anything from a couple dozen meters to several kilometers, all depending on what you compare it to.

If there's no canon in 40K, then can people still be canonized?

Everything. But I'm more likely to actually care about what's in the codices and rulebook than some crappy author's wankish BL novel.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:


Surprisingly, this is a fairly accurate take on the Imperium and the Mechanicus' take on the whole matter. Sarcasm ignored, of course.

Ignoring your sarcasm. Things on the ground in 40k itself don't and aren't as the codexes say. I'm sure that this post of mine will be ignored cause all that matters is the holy codex which doesn't portray the people of the Imperium as people and are instead robots.

I wasn't being sarcastic, I was assuming you were being sarcastic when you said;

Corporal_Reznov wrote:

Common sense shouldn't exist cause consistency of the holy codex.

I was saying that as far as the Adeptus Mechanicus is concerned, no, Guardsmen should not be able to maintain their own lasguns, because Guardsmen are not initiated into the holy rites of the machine cult and are going to offend the Omnissiah.

It was more a comment on how the Imperium is set up in-universe than a retort at you. As far as modern Ultramarines who aren't the main character are concerned, the Holy Codex is the be all and end all of common sense.

Edit: And one day, I'll gain the ability to write "es" without automatically appending "e" on the end. >< The number of times I've written Ultramarinese today alone is starting to tick me off.

Everything and nothing. For example, Grey Knights are incorruptible...but there are Chaos Grey Knights in my Red Corsairs army. Muwhahahahahaha

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
Everything and nothing. For example, Grey Knights are incorruptible...but there are Chaos Grey Knights in my Red Corsairs army. Muwhahahahahaha

Huh? How is that working?

The only true canon is the gaxaly map, or the omniscient narration that might exist (Which is in 0 of the books)
Most sources are from unreliable narrators.
So it makes the story of the 40k universe quite confusing.

I think everything is lore but not really at the same time.

Whatever the hell I feel like.