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Post by: Ouze
Black smoke, no Pope today.
Rome (CNN) -- Black smoke billowed from the chimney of the Sistine Chapel Tuesday night, indicating that cardinals gathered at the Vatican to elect a new pope had not chosen one in the first ballot of their conclave.
The start of the secret election got underway earlier in the day, as the heavy wooden doors to the chapel swung closed on the 115 Roman Catholic cardinals charged with selecting the next pontiff.
The next round of voting will begin Wednesday morning. Results will be revealed by puffs of smoke from the chimney following each ballot.
Black smoke, no pope. White smoke, success.
On a day rich with symbolism, the scarlet-clad cardinals entered the Sistine Chapel in solemn procession, chanting prayers and watched over by the paintings of Renaissance artist Michelangelo.
A virtual look at the conclave vote World descends on Vatican for conclave CNN Explains: Papal succession
Led by the conclave's senior cardinal, Giovanni Battista Re, each of the cardinal-electors -- those under age 80 who are eligible to vote -- then swore an oath of secrecy.
A designated official then gave the order, in Latin, to those not authorized to remain, "Extra omnes" -- that is, "Everyone out."
With all those not taking part in the conclave gone, the cardinals will remain locked in isolation until one candidate garners two-thirds of their votes.
That man will emerge from the process as the new spiritual leader of the world's 1.2 billion Roman Catholics.
Earlier, the cardinals celebrated a morning Mass at St. Peter's Basilica, where they prayed for guidance in making a choice that could be crucial to the direction of a church rocked by scandal in recent years.
Applause echoed around St. Peter's as Cardinal Angelo Sodano, dean of the College of Cardinals, offered thanks for the "brilliant pontificate" of Benedict XVI, whose unexpected resignation precipitated the selection of a new pope.
Sodano's homily focused on a message of love and unity, calling on all to cooperate with the new pontiff in the service of the church.
"My brothers, let us pray that the Lord will grant us a pontiff who will embrace this noble mission with a generous heart," he concluded.
Members of the public had waited in long lines Tuesday morning to join the Mass. As the service began, the morning sunshine came to an abrupt end, with the skies letting loose thunder, lightning and a torrential downpour.
Before the service, the cardinal-electors had moved into Casa Santa Marta, their residence at the Vatican for the duration of the conclave.
Jamming devices have been put in place to stop them from communicating with the outside world via mobile phones or other electronic means as they make their decision.
Rome was abuzz Monday with preparations for the conclave, from the 5,600 journalists the Vatican said had been accredited to cover the event to the red curtains unfurled from the central balcony at St. Peter's, the spot where the world will meet the new pope once he is elected.
Tailors have completed sets of clothes for the new pope to wear as soon as he is elected, in three sizes.
Video released by the Vatican over the weekend showed the installation of a pair of stoves inside the chapel. One is used to burn the cardinals' ballots after they are cast and the other to send up the smoke signal -- the one that alerts the world that a vote has been taken and whether there's a new pope.
When cardinals elected Benedict in 2005, the white smoke signaling the decision came about six hours after an earlier, inconclusive vote, Lombardi said.
It took another 50 minutes for Benedict to dress, pray and finally appear on the balcony of St. Peter's, he said.
The longest conclave held since the turn of the 20th century lasted five days.
On Monday, cardinals held the last of several days of meetings, known as General Congregations, to discuss church affairs and get acquainted. Lombardi said 152 cardinals were on hand for the final meeting.
As well as getting to know their counterparts from around the world, the cardinals discussed the major issues facing the church, including its handling of allegations of child sex abuse by priests and a scandal over leaks from the Vatican last year that revealed claims of corruption, as well as the church's future direction.
Church rules prevent cardinals over the age of 80 from participating in the conclave but allow them to attend the meetings that precede the vote.
Who will be chosen?
Meanwhile, the Italian news media are full of speculation about which cardinal may win enough support from his counterparts to be elected, and what regional alliances are being formed.
According to CNN Vatican analyst John Allen, also a correspondent for the National Catholic Reporter, the race was wide open as the cardinals entered the conclave.
Unlike in 2005, when Benedict XVI was believed to be the favorite going into the election, no one has emerged as a clear frontrunner this time around, Allen said.
Some names have cropped up in media reports as possible contenders, however. They include Italy's Cardinal Angelo Scola; Brazil's Odilo Scherer; Marc Ouellet of Quebec, Canada; U.S. cardinals Sean O'Malley of Boston and Timothy Dolan of New York; and Ghana's Peter Turkson.
More than 80% of Africans believe their continent is ready for an African pope, but only 61% believe the world is, an exclusive survey for CNN has found.
A mobile phone survey of 20,000 Africans from 11 nations, conducted by CNN in conjunction with crowd sourcing company Jana, found that 86% thought an African pope would increase support for Catholicism in Africa.
Italy potentially wields the most power within the conclave, with 28 of the 115 votes, making it the largest bloc in the College of Cardinals. The United States is second with 11. Altogether, 48 countries are represented among the cardinal-electors.
"Many would say it's all about politics at this point," Monsignor Rick Hilgartner, head of U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops Secretariat on Divine Worship, told CNN, "but I think it's important to remember that they also recognize that this is a very spiritual moment."
Once the doors close and the conclave begins, he says, it's less about politicking and "more about prayer as they each in silence write their votes."
Sixty-seven of the cardinal-electors were appointed by Benedict, who stepped down at the end of last month, becoming the first pontiff to do so in six centuries
If you'd like to read more about how a conclave works, there is a good article here . This article includes the best fact I've learned today:
To resolve prolonged deadlocks in the earlier years of papal elections, local authorities often resorted to the forced seclusion of the cardinal electors, such as that first adopted by the city of Rome in 1241, and possibly before that by Perugia in 1216.[55] In 1269, when the forced seclusion of the cardinals alone failed to produce a pope, the city of Viterbo refused to send in any materials except bread and water. When even this failed to produce a result, the townspeople removed the roof of the Palazzo dei Papi in their attempt to speed up the election.[56]
Please note: if you want to post questions asking about how this works, and so on, that would be awesome. If you want to post about sex scandals, how much of an agnostic or atheist you are, or other such stuff, please create a new thread. Stay on topic!
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Post by: whembly
Not gonna happen, but A. Bishop Dolan would be great... he's fricking hilarious...
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Post by: Peregrine
Has there been any sign that the election has any real chance of picking a pope who will make any meaningful changes in church policy, or is this just a question of which figurehead will get a nice new title and obscene luxury?
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Post by: malfred
Is this Episode IV: A New Pope?
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Post by: Ouze
 Peregrine wrote:Has there been any sign that the election has any real chance of picking a pope who will make any meaningful changes in church policy
I think it's likely that the process of rising through the ranks to become a serious papal contender would also weed out candidates who would make serious liberalization attempts. I think Odilo Scherer is likely to be as moderate as it's going to get.
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Post by: whembly
I think it's to be their benefit if the next pope is open to new communication technologies... ie, twitter, blogging, sense of humor (which Dolan excels at  )
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Post by: Ouze
Well, as a New Yorker, he'd be my pick anyway.
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Post by: whembly
 Ouze wrote:Well, as a New Yorker, he'd be my pick anyway.
He was raised in Missouri...
Ain't going to happen though...
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Post by: Spyral
This dude is my pic:
Anthony Olubunmi Okogie
Age:76 Country:Nigeria Outlook:Conservative Career  astoral
After serving for a short time as pastoral assistant at the Holy Cross Cathedral, Okogi was drafted into the Nigerian army as a chaplain. He was transferred to Lagos as Auxiliary Bishop, then in 1973 was nominated archbishop. In August 1971, he was ordained titular bishop of Mascula and auxiliary of Oyo. Cardinal Okogie played a prominent role in the Christian Association of Nigeria (CAN), which he served as president. In 2002 he volunteered to die in place of a Muslim woman sentenced to be stoned to death for the crime of adultery. He has criticised the US in the past and, in 2007, condemned the Nigerian governments approval for a condom factory in Yenagoa, saying: The condom is widely known not to be a safe protector against HIV/Aids. He was created a cardinal by John Paul II on 21 October 2003.
believes contraception is never justified
is defensive about relations with other faiths
is not facing questions over any abuse scandals
is not facing questions over the handling of the Vatileaks scandal
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Post by: Peregrine
So, business as usual then, another out-of-touch figurehead who cares more about spiritual "purity" than real-world harm. I guess that answers my question about whether we'll see any changes out of this election.
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Post by: Palindrome
Its a vast, ancient, hidebound and slowly dying organisation, of course nothing will change.
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Post by: whembly
 Palindrome wrote:Its a vast, ancient, hidebound and slowly dying organisation, of course nothing will change.
wait...wut? o.O Automatically Appended Next Post: Peregrine wrote:
So, business as usual then, another out-of-touch figurehead who cares more about spiritual "purity" than real-world harm. I guess that answers my question about whether we'll see any changes out of this election.
So, you're going to condemn the whole thing on one thing? Shallow man... shallow.
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Post by: Palindrome
None of the cardinals will make a blind bit of difference to the catholic faith and its role in the world. It doesn't matter who will be pope becuase they don't have the power, even if they had the inclination, to make anything more than token reforms.
In other words it will be business as usual.
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Post by: KalashnikovMarine
I'm thinking the Brazlilian front runner is likely
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Post by: Peregrine
 whembly wrote:So, you're going to condemn the whole thing on one thing? Shallow man... shallow.
It's not really shallow.
1) It's a horrible, horrible policy that favors ideological purity over the tremendous real-world harm it causes. And things like "the condom is widely known not to be a safe protector against HIV/Aids" are blatant lies. In any sane world this alone would exclude him.
2) It's completely out of touch with even most believers. The church leadership can rant all it wants about how birth control is a sin, meanwhile most catholics completely ignore the rule.
So, the fact that a serious candidate is advocating such an insane position is a strong hint that there isn't much potential for badly-needed reform. The new pope will likely be a figurehead of an increasingly irrelevant institution, and continue to value the "infallibility" of church doctrine more than practical issues of doing the right thing.
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Post by: Mr Nobody
Marc Ouellet's brother was charged as a child paedophile and their is hope that, if he's chosen as next pope, it might bring to light the issue of priests and children.
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Post by: whembly
Peregrine wrote: whembly wrote:So, you're going to condemn the whole thing on one thing? Shallow man... shallow.
It's not really shallow.
1) It's a horrible, horrible policy that favors ideological purity over the tremendous real-world harm it causes. And things like "the condom is widely known not to be a safe protector against HIV/Aids" are blatant lies. In any sane world this alone would exclude him.
2) It's completely out of touch with even most believers. The church leadership can rant all it wants about how birth control is a sin, meanwhile most catholics completely ignore the rule.
So, the fact that a serious candidate is advocating such an insane position is a strong hint that there isn't much potential for badly-needed reform. The new pope will likely be a figurehead of an increasingly irrelevant institution, and continue to value the "infallibility" of church doctrine more than practical issues of doing the right thing.
Okay... that's your opinion... cool.  Automatically Appended Next Post:  Mr Nobody wrote:Marc Ouellet's brother was charged as a child paedophile and their is hope that, if he's chosen as next pope, it might bring to light the issue of priests and children.
WhaaaaaaaT? o.O
IF that's true, then no... I don't see that happening.
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Post by: helgrenze
I would love to see Dolan elected.
Especially if his first Mass is this Sunday..... even Belfast would celebrate.
However, Many European Cardnals see Americans as too liberal and will not even consider one for the position.
The likely Pope will be either Italian or mid european.
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Post by: nels1031
Mr Nobody wrote:Marc Ouellet's brother was charged as a child paedophile and their is hope that, if he's chosen as next pope, it might bring to light the issue of priests and children.
Or it could bring to light that sexual deviance is everywhere in modern culture. Marc Oullet's brother was an special needs teacher and poet/artist with two daughters of his own. How would this have any bearing on Cardinal Oullett or the "issue of priests and children?"
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Post by: Kovnik Obama
Mr Nobody wrote:Marc Ouellet's brother was charged as a child paedophile and their is hope that, if he's chosen as next pope, it might bring to light the issue of priests and children.
I really hope he won't be the next pope. As impressive his teaching career is, in the last years, he's proven himself to be the french-canadian equivalent of the 'legitimate rape' fiasco the Republican had during last election. Plus, his only retort to any criticism is 'Well, it's hard to accept the truth, but it doesn't stop it from being the truth'. Finally, he is flooding the news here. God knows what will happen if he is elected. It's as if half the population here has momentarily forgotten the Quiet Revolution...
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Post by: Zakiriel
My thought is going to be an Italian but I keep looking at Erdo.
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Post by: Spyral
Peregrine wrote:
1) It's a horrible, horrible policy that favors ideological purity over the tremendous real-world harm it causes. And things like "the condom is widely known not to be a safe protector against HIV/Aids" are blatant lies. In any sane world this alone would exclude him.
2) It's completely out of touch with even most believers. The church leadership can rant all it wants about how birth control is a sin, meanwhile most catholics completely ignore the rule.
So, the fact that a serious candidate is advocating such an insane position is a strong hint that there isn't much potential for badly-needed reform. The new pope will likely be a figurehead of an increasingly irrelevant institution, and continue to value the "infallibility" of church doctrine more than practical issues of doing the right thing.
i) Condoms are only 85% effective in practice according to the WHO so 3 in 20 times you'd run the risk of getting HIV/AIDS
ii) Truth is not decided by a majority vote.
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Post by: sebster
What do we call the Pope candidates? Popetentials?
Peregrine wrote:So, business as usual then, another out-of-touch figurehead who cares more about spiritual "purity" than real-world harm. I guess that answers my question about whether we'll see any changes out of this election.
One issue a lot of Catholics here are worried about is if, as seems possible, they opt for an African Pope. While our last couple of popes might be nowhere near as progressive as you or I would like, they were a long way better than most of the faithful in Africa. There's real concern that an African Pope might actually lead the church in the other direction.
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Post by: Palindrome
 Spyral wrote:
i) Condoms are only 85% effective in practice according to the WHO
.
Which obviously means that they are useless. The WHO study has quite significant flaws, by their own admission. Condoms are commonly held to be 90-95% effective when used consistently and correctly.
If there is a hardline African pope what real damage can they actually do that isn't being/has been done already?
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Post by: dogma
Yeah, it is.
Peregrine wrote:
1) It's a horrible, horrible policy that favors ideological purity over the tremendous real-world harm it causes.
Do you honestly believe that real-world harm cannot be caused by violations of ideological purity?
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Post by: Peregrine
Spyral wrote:i) Condoms are only 85% effective in practice according to the WHO so 3 in 20 times you'd run the risk of getting HIV/AIDS
1) The "in actual use" numbers include "failures" like "we didn't bother using it this time". If you instead look at the numbers for proper use the chances are even lower.
2) An 85% reduction in risk is MUCH better than a 0% reduction in risk, unless of course you're a high-ranking church official. There's really nothing to argue about here, the official church position on birth control encourages the spread of horrible diseases.
ii) Truth is not decided by a majority vote.
You're right. Truth is decided by reality, and reality says the catholic church isn't just wrong on this subject, they're dangerously wrong.
Anyway, the point about a majority of members disagreeing with the official position isn't about truth, it's about relevance. Church leadership can cling to a belief that most people disagree with, but it just means they'll continue to become less and less relevant as people continue to leave the church in large numbers. Which was the original question, whether there's a realistic chance that the next pope will make meaningful reforms instead of just being a weak figurehead for a declining organization.
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Post by: sebster
Spyral wrote:i) Condoms are only 85% effective in practice according to the WHO so 3 in 20 times you'd run the risk of getting HIV/AIDS
ii) Truth is not decided by a majority vote.
1) That number includes user error. Without user error the rate improves to in excess of 98%. Also, that number is the rate of success over a year, assuming a normal amount of sexual activity, so your effort to expand on the figure is woefully in error.
2) Absolutely true. But when the majority of your population simply stops listening to your edicts on the pill, condoms etc and uses them as part of their regular lives... only for both the church and its followers to carry on otherwise carrying on pretending the Church hierarchy represents a moral authority that can't be ignored... well then you've got a big problem.
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Post by: Peregrine
 dogma wrote:Do you honestly believe that real-world harm cannot be caused by violations of ideological purity?
Who cares? Unless you're part of the small minority* that believes in the complete infallibility of church doctrine I don't see how you can possibly argue that the real-world harm of increasing the spread of horrible diseases is less than the "harm" of the church having to admit it was wrong about something.
*See previous comment about most catholics ignoring the official rules about birth control.
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Post by: dogma
Catholics.
Peregrine wrote:
Unless you're part of the small minority* that believes in the complete infallibility of church doctrine I don't see how you can possibly argue that the real-world harm of increasing the spread of horrible diseases is less than the "harm" of the church having to admit it was wrong about something.
It is a question of hedons.
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Post by: Peregrine
Except most (US, and probably true elsewhere) catholics don't, since they ignore the church's rules banning birth control.
Sigh. I can see where this is going, another pointless tangent where you demand absolute proof of even the most uncontroversial facts, and insist that no ethical statement can be made without first giving a complete and problem-free ethical system. Unfortunately for you, I'm not taking the bait. If you want to address the substance of the argument, fine, but if you just want to derail it into an abstract philosophical debate you're going to be doing it alone.
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Post by: Frazzled
Peregrine wrote: Spyral wrote:i) Condoms are only 85% effective in practice according to the WHO so 3 in 20 times you'd run the risk of getting HIV/AIDS
1) The "in actual use" numbers include "failures" like "we didn't bother using it this time". If you instead look at the numbers for proper use the chances are even lower.
2) An 85% reduction in risk is MUCH better than a 0% reduction in risk, unless of course you're a high-ranking church official. There's really nothing to argue about here, the official church position on birth control encourages the spread of horrible diseases.
ii) Truth is not decided by a majority vote.
You're right. Truth is decided by reality, and reality says the catholic church isn't just wrong on this subject, they're dangerously wrong.
Anyway, the point about a majority of members disagreeing with the official position isn't about truth, it's about relevance. Church leadership can cling to a belief that most people disagree with, but it just means they'll continue to become less and less relevant as people continue to leave the church in large numbers. Which was the original question, whether there's a realistic chance that the next pope will make meaningful reforms instead of just being a weak figurehead for a declining organization.
You know whats awesome? TALKING ABOUT CONDOM USE IN ANOTHER THREAD.
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Post by: reds8n
If you want to post about sex scandals, how much of an agnostic or atheist you are, or other such stuff, please create a new thread. Stay on topic!
please.
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Post by: Manchu
 helgrenze wrote:However, Many European Cardnals see Americans as too liberal and will not even consider one for the position.
I assure you, only the most ultra-conservative could see Dolan as liberal.
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Post by: Frazzled
 Manchu wrote: helgrenze wrote:However, Many European Cardnals see Americans as too liberal and will not even consider one for the position.
I assure you, only the most ultra-conservative could see Dolan as liberal.
If he becomes pope we could call him the Dolanator!
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Post by: Ouze
" Papabiles"; but I think Popetentials is way catchier.
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Post by: Lone Cat
SNAP saw that all nominated candicates are all inappropriate due to their alleged abuse and corruption.
The "Catholic Priestess order" in UK doesn't think that the new pope will recognize their clergy order.
Either Asians (Pinoy i think), or Africans, or citizens of continental America wants their cardinals elected a Pope. If a candicate hailed from the three continents were voted a new pope. They need a new name coined for the would-be Holy Father of all Catholics.
Lucius = "Light" for Asian
Americus = "Leader" for continental American
Fidelitus = "Faituful" for African
But wait! Don't Swiss Guards supposed to wear steel cuirass too?
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Post by: Manchu
What are you on about?
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Post by: Lone Cat
1. The new pope will still be controversial unless he will take action against 'issues' SNAP and the rogue priestess pointed out
2. All popes hail from Europe. mostly Italy.
3. Tell me about Papal Swiss guards please. I do saw the news about the new pope elections and despite they wear Renaissance outfit+morrion helmet and armed with halberd, they don't wear cuirass.
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Post by: Manchu
No one cares what "priestesses" think. The next pope will probably not deal effectively with the sex abuse scandal for a variety of reasons. Not every pope was born in Europe. Swiss Guards sometimes wear a cuirass.
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Post by: Rented Tritium
There have been popes from outside of europe.
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Post by: KalashnikovMarine
Swiss guards also wear modern fatigues and carry automatic weapons. The years might have passed but they are still roughly three hundred (around there... can't remember) people high on the list of people you should not want to feck with.
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Post by: LordofHats
Apparently there's white smoke now.
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Post by: Alfndrate
We apparently have a new pope... Father Jacob Maurer tweeted out 5 minutes ago, "White Smoke! Habemus Papum!" Not sure if he's using the correct forms for the Latin, and google doesn't have news results for it yet...
Edit: ninja'd
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Post by: thenoobbomb
 Alfndrate wrote:We apparently have a new pope... Father Jacob Maurer tweeted out 5 minutes ago, "White Smoke! Habemus Papum!" Not sure if he's using the correct forms for the Latin, and google doesn't have news results for it yet...
Edit: ninja'd
Dutch radio stations have.
They got a cam on it. Lot's o white smoke. Automatically Appended Next Post: http://www.vaticanstate.va/EN/Monuments/webcam/index?cam=webcam5&testo=Saint%20Peter's%20Basilica should work..
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Post by: Spyral
Alfndrate wrote:We apparently have a new pope... Father Jacob Maurer tweeted out 5 minutes ago, "White Smoke! Habemus Papum!" Not sure if he's using the correct forms for the Latin, and google doesn't have news results for it yet...
Habemus Papam! = We haz Pope!
My vote is for Father Spodo Komodo at this stage ...
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Post by: Frazzled
Sorry, that was me. Found an old stash from my Disco Larry days....er sorry.
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Post by: LordofHats
 Frazzled wrote:
Sorry, that was me. Found an old stash from my Disco Larry days....er sorry.
Thanks for getting our hopes up Or down?
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Post by: thenoobbomb
I actually found this on NationStates. It was a quote to awesome to not post here:
greed and death";p="13367365 wrote:White smoke was a mistake someone was burning evidence of covering up molesting priest and used the wrong chimney.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also,
Don't know if it's an earlier one, but that should be how it looks right now anyways. Automatically Appended Next Post: And the Swiss Guard are marching.
Why am I following this so close?
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Post by: Manchu
@all: Please keep reds8n's earlier warnings in mind. Thanks.
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Post by: Alfndrate
Aww my post was considered Off Topic, Sorry Manchu :(
Though I am fairly interested to see who it is. I just liked that scene from EuroTrip.
I'm wondering if it's going to be one of the 28 italian cardinals, who hold the largest voting power...
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Post by: thenoobbomb
Yeah. They'll anounce it in like 20 minutes. They being a French Cardinal.
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Post by: KalashnikovMarine
Annnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnd the winner is?
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Post by: Kovnik Obama
Still no news. 6 minutes late, mr Pope 
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Post by: thenoobbomb
Unknown as of yet.
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Post by: dogma
Peregrine wrote:
Except most (US, and probably true elsewhere) catholics don't, since they ignore the church's rules banning birth control.
But they still call themselves Catholic, so there is a self-evident degree of adherence.
Edit: politeness.
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Post by: KalashnikovMarine
Probably an older guy, takes awhile to get all that Pope bling on. For the record it looks miserable in St Peter's Square tonight, but it's absolutely packed. Live feed if it hasn't been posted already: http://www.vaticanstate.va/content/vaticanstate/en.html
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Post by: Manchu
When John XXIII was elected, they did not have vestments large enough for him.
Now there was a good pope.
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Post by: Hyenajoe
The new Pope is from Argentina and he takes the name of Francis
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Post by: whembly
 Hyenajoe wrote:The new Pope is from Argentina and he takes the name of Francis
Interesting...
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Post by: LordofHats
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Post by: KalashnikovMarine
Jeez he hasn't even stepped on the balcony! I was thinking it would be Latin America though, they're the modern power bloc for Catholicism.
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Post by: Kovnik Obama
Well, I'm happy it's not Ouellet, but this dude doesn't sound much better.
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Post by: KalashnikovMarine
He's a Jesuit, so that's a good sign.
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Post by: CuddlySquig
Darn. Not one of the three I was rooting for.
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Post by: Frazzled
Hyenajoe wrote:The new Pope is from Argentina and he takes the name of Francis
Pope Franky? He needs to have "luck be a lady tonight" played every time he enters a room.
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Post by: KalashnikovMarine
Jesuits are a fairly liberal and current faction of the Catholic church. I also approve of how he's presenting himself for this first time to the masses, simple white cassock, no ornate robes, no bling, very humble.
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Post by: gorgon
The book on him seems to be that he's fairly conservative, but that he's a very humble person. He might even cook his own meals. I like that part a lot.
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Post by: Manchu
Ostentation is not a bad sign for popes. True humility needn't appear pious.
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Post by: KalashnikovMarine
 gorgon wrote:The book on him seems to be that he's fairly conservative, but that he's a very humble person. He might even cook his own meals. I like that part a lot.
The key factor here is liberal for the Catholic church.
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Post by: Manchu
Based on being a Jesuit? Sorry, not all Jesuits are liberals. Francis does not appear to be a liberal even by the standards of the cardinals. Automatically Appended Next Post: He considers social outreach, rather than doctrinal battles, to be the essential business of the church.
http://www.scpr.org/news/2013/03/13/36341/no-pope-yet-black-smoke-rises-after-morning-votes/ How I pray this is true. "In our ecclesiastical region there are priests who don't baptize the children of single mothers because they weren't conceived in the sanctity of marriage," Bergoglio told his priests. "These are today's hypocrites. Those who clericalize the Church. Those who separate the people of God from salvation. And this poor girl who, rather than returning the child to sender, had the courage to carry it into the world, must wander from parish to parish so that it's baptized!"
Let these be more than words!
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Post by: Spyral
Manchu wrote:Based on being a Jesuit? Sorry, not all Jesuits are liberals. Francis does not appear to be a liberal even by the standards of the cardinals.
Amen. The whole 'jesuits are liberal and disfavoured' mantra is rubbish. Some of the best speakers and theologians have been Jesuits.
Also Latin America makes sense although I was hoping for Africa to shake things up a bit. Still the Americas is good. :-)
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Post by: Manchu
The more I read about him, the more optimistic I feel.
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Post by: whembly
Manchu wrote:The more I read about him, the more optimistic I feel.
When you're done reading about him... can ya give us the cliffnotes version?
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Post by: Manchu
Well, let's just start with this, from his speech: And now I would like to give the blessing, but first I want to ask you a favor. Before the bishop blesses the people, I ask that you would pray to the Lord to bless me — the prayer of the people for their Bishop.
This is quite significant, that the people would bless him before he blesses them. This shows something about his vision of leadership, which is to say that blessing flows from God's people as they are before it comes back to them from the church.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
Just at a quick squizz at the BBC summary, he seems like a pretty good selection.
He is pastoral not Vatican, non-European but more liberal than the Africans, socially progressive but not so sexually progressive as to frighten the conservatives.
If compromise is a good thing then he has it.
I say good luck to Francis I.
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Post by: Manchu
He's actually been serving in the curia for a long time now (although not so long as poor Ratzinger).
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Post by: Breotan
Connection to Prophecy
According to the Prophecy of the Popes (supposedly authored by Saint Malachy in the 12th Century, although some contend a more recent date of authorship) [36] the 266th pope to be elected (and the 112th pope on the list this text gives) will be the final pope, and will oversee the church as the "City of Seven Hills" is destroyed."[37][38]
This prophecy would be touched upon with more detail in Thomas Horn's "Petrus Romanus: The Final Pope is Here." In which the author contends the end of the Catholic Church is at hand (although Bergoglio did not appear on the list of ten likely candidates for being the literal "Peter from Rome.") The book correctly predicted that the previous pope, Benedict, would step down.
Let the conspiracy theories begin. Multiple news and online sources were quick, in the hours after Francis' election, to seize upon the story (from both skeptical and open viewpoints) pointing to the proliferation of apocalyptic predictions in the wake of the conclave.
Whoops... too late.
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Post by: d-usa
I guess there are hopeful thoughts that he picked his name as a rebuilder of the church, potentially signaling dealing with the scandals and rebuilding the reputation.
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Post by: Manchu
I think we ought to keep in mind that the sexual abuse exists for one reason and the perpetuation and cover up of the abuse exists for another reason. The second is what we're concerned about in this conversation -- and I think the reason for it is clericalism, the notion that the institutional church should enjoy certain privileges vis-a-vis the civil jurisdiction and lay people. That attitude is very much present at all levels, certainly in the curia, certainly among the bishops, but also among lay people and even civil officials. So let's remember that any pope can only do so much in this regard. I don't want to apologize for a failure that has yet to occur. I just want to shape expectations according to reality.
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Post by: whembly
Manchu wrote:I think we ought to keep in mind that the sexual abuse exists for one reason and the perpetuation and cover up of the abuse exists for another reason. The second is what we're concerned about in this conversation -- and I think the reason for it is clericalism, the notion that the institutional church should enjoy certain privileges vis-a-vis the civil jurisdiction and lay people. That attitude is very much present at all levels, certainly in the curia, certainly among the bishops, but also among lay people and even civil officials. So let's remember that any pope can only do so much in this regard. I don't want to apologize for a failure that has yet to occur. I just want to shape expectations according to reality.
Agreed... and I'm not Catholic... is that weird? Automatically Appended Next Post: Manchu wrote:Well, let's just start with this, from his speech: And now I would like to give the blessing, but first I want to ask you a favor. Before the bishop blesses the people, I ask that you would pray to the Lord to bless me — the prayer of the people for their Bishop.
This is quite significant, that the people would bless him before he blesses them. This shows something about his vision of leadership, which is to say that blessing flows from God's people as they are before it comes back to them from the church.
You know what... that is all kinds of awesome. Very impressed...
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Post by: Breotan
Why are people using a suffix with his name? I thought you couldn't use "the first" until there was someone else with the same name as "the second", sort of like how Jr./Sr. work.
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Post by: whembly
Has anyone seen confirmation that the new Pope is linked with the Comunione e Liberazione?
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Post by: Frazzled
I would have preferred someone who's not already nearly dead though. Seriously, can't you guys at least pick someone in their 60s or something?
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Post by: sebster
Hey, I learned a new word and it's an awesome word. Thanks.
And then on the link I see that Vaticanologist is also a word, and also as awesome as Papabile.
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Post by: azazel the cat
Breotan wrote:Why are people using a suffix with his name? I thought you couldn't use "the first" until there was someone else with the same name as "the second", sort of like how Jr./Sr. work.
Because on its own "Francis" is what you name a child when you know they're gonna grow up to be a wiener kid. 
So instead, we all say Francis I (pronounced: "Francis One") because that is much cooler. Like the guy from Powerman 5000.
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Post by: sebster
Manchu wrote:Well, let's just start with this, from his speech: And now I would like to give the blessing, but first I want to ask you a favor. Before the bishop blesses the people, I ask that you would pray to the Lord to bless me — the prayer of the people for their Bishop.
This is quite significant, that the people would bless him before he blesses them. This shows something about his vision of leadership, which is to say that blessing flows from God's people as they are before it comes back to them from the church.
That's really cool. Automatically Appended Next Post: Frazzled wrote:I would have preferred someone who's not already nearly dead though. Seriously, can't you guys at least pick someone in their 60s or something?
I wonder if cardinals aren't that keen on voting in younger candidates because that means they'll stay in the office a long time, and cost themselves the chance at the Papacy. Pope John Paul II did exactly what the actuarial tables said would happen and lived for a long time, and lots of Papabiles missed out on their chance.
And when this guy is the 266th Pope, you figure that the average time in office per Pope comes out at about 7 or 8 years. So this guy seems about the norm for expected time in office.
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Post by: Spyral
Frazzled wrote:I would have preferred someone who's not already nearly dead though. Seriously, can't you guys at least pick someone in their 60s or something?
But then we could be stuck with him or aaaages.
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Post by: redbristles
I'm just annoyed that the BBC decided on my behalf that it was more important than me watching The Great British Menu. He's just a man.
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Post by: Captain Avatar
My spouse and I danced the happy dance when the announcement came.
Everything that we've heard or read about him has impressed us.
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Post by: reds8n
 Breotan wrote:Connection to Prophecy
According to the Prophecy of the Popes (supposedly authored by Saint Malachy in the 12th Century, although some contend a more recent date of authorship) [36] the 266th pope to be elected (and the 112th pope on the list this text gives) will be the final pope, and will oversee the church as the "City of Seven Hills" is destroyed."[37][38]
This prophecy would be touched upon with more detail in Thomas Horn's "Petrus Romanus: The Final Pope is Here." In which the author contends the end of the Catholic Church is at hand (although Bergoglio did not appear on the list of ten likely candidates for being the literal "Peter from Rome.") The book correctly predicted that the previous pope, Benedict, would step down.
Let the conspiracy theories begin. Multiple news and online sources were quick, in the hours after Francis' election, to seize upon the story (from both skeptical and open viewpoints) pointing to the proliferation of apocalyptic predictions in the wake of the conclave.
Whoops... too late.
http://barthsnotes.com/2013/03/13/wnd-still-pushing-final-pope-pseudo-prophecy/
One in a series of pieces from WND:
An author who predicted Pope Benedict XVI would be the first pontiff in nearly 600 years to resign is keeping close watch on the conclave of cardinals through the lens of a medieval prophecy that indicates the man they select will be history’s “final pope.”
Tom Horn, co-author of the book “Petrus Romanus: The Final Pope is Here,” told WND he has a list of 10 men among the 115 sequestered in the Sistine Chapel who best fit St. Malachy’s “Prophecy of the Popes,” said to be based on a prophetic vision of the 112 popes following Pope Celestine II, who died in 1144.
As WND reported, Horn and his co-author, Cris Putnam, predicted in their book Benedict would step down last April, and it turns out that April apparently was when Benedict made the historic decision he announced to the world last month.
The article, of course, deliberately obscures the detail that Horn’s “prediction” was not based on scrutinising some ancient manuscript; rather, he took to the internet, where he would have found reports such as this one, from September 2011:
…There is one front page news story that will certainly not go unnoticed: that is, that the Pope is thinking about resigning during the Spring of 2012. Journalist Antonio Socci has confirmed the same in the Italian daily, Libero.
For some reason, WND also fails to mention another book by Horn, which it was promoting back in 2008 and after; this was Nephilim Stargates: The Year 2012 and the Return of the Watchers, in which he explained the “timing of Enoch’s 70 generations and a catastrophic soon return of the Watcher’s offspring”. In 2012 itself, WND recalled – in a piece entitled 2012 Doomsday: It’s Not ust Mayan Claim – that:
Last year [i.e. 2011], WND reported on Tom Horn’s efforts to let everyone to know calendars besides the ancient Mayan one predict the demise of human civilization in 2012, and he claims a demonic plot bringing about the end date could be hiding in plain sight inside the U.S. Capitol.
The “Prophecy of the Popes” first appeared in 1590, although it claims to record a vision received by St Malachy in 1139. According to the story, Malachy was given details about all the future popes, and and the list of 112 popes is now about to reach its end. However, the document consists of obscure mystical titles; there are no actual names or dates, and many commentators note that the “prophecies” referring to the period between 1139 and 1590 are rather more impressive than those given for Popes after the document’s publication.
Hal Lindsey is also an enthusiast, although “Glenn Beck’s End Times Prophet” Joel Richardson, who also writes for WND, dismisses the document as a “proven fraud”. Richardson, of course, would rather we focus on the prospect of an Islamic Anti-Christ.
Meanwhile, Thomas Horn’s “Defender” publisher has a website here; another book by Horn for sale there is Exo-Vaticana: Petrus Romanus, Project L.U.C.I.F.E.R. and the Vatican’s Astonishing Plan for the Arrival of an Alien Savior.
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Post by: Frazzled
 azazel the cat wrote:Breotan wrote:Why are people using a suffix with his name? I thought you couldn't use "the first" until there was someone else with the same name as "the second", sort of like how Jr./Sr. work.
Because on its own "Francis" is what you name a child when you know they're gonna grow up to be a wiener kid.
So instead, we all say Francis I (pronounced: "Francis One") because that is much cooler. Like the guy from Powerman 5000.
He needs to be called Pope Franky. Even better would be Franky Five Fingers. He needs a hammer, with "Holy Spirit" chiseled on the front. Then he can have the catchy moniker "time to feel the power of the Holy Spirit." Papow!
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Post by: Miguelsan
In this wikipedia page you have the links to 6 popes born in Syria
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Syrian_popes
M.
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Post by: Lord Bingo
Considering that was over 1200 years ago, it is safe to say he is the first non European Pope in a while.
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Post by: gorgon
Manchu wrote:Well, let's just start with this, from his speech: And now I would like to give the blessing, but first I want to ask you a favor. Before the bishop blesses the people, I ask that you would pray to the Lord to bless me — the prayer of the people for their Bishop.
This is quite significant, that the people would bless him before he blesses them. This shows something about his vision of leadership, which is to say that blessing flows from God's people as they are before it comes back to them from the church.
I was surprised by that and liked it a lot also. I really like the choice based on everything I've read.
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Post by: Rented Tritium
The very first pope was non-european.
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Post by: kronk
I think this is an incredibly bold and smart move for him to take the name Francis. Although he is Jesuit, he's reaching out to the Franciscans. Also, like St. Francis did before him, he's sending the message that he's about to clean house. About damn time, too.
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Post by: Manchu
 kronk wrote:It sends the message that although he is Jesuit, he's reaching out to the Franciscans.
Is that a joke?
18698
Post by: kronk
Not at all.
I'm looking forward to what this new leadership will mean for the church.
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Post by: Manchu
But it's hardly that the Jesuits and Franciscans don't get along or represent some kind of political or ideological divide.
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Post by: whembly
Manchu wrote:But it's hardly that the Jesuits and Franciscans don't get along or represent some kind of political or ideological divide.
Yeah... I've never understand that public perception... but, then again, I'm kinda new in the Catholic world. *shrugs*
Were there historical issues between these twos?
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Post by: Manchu
The more famous debates were between the Dominicans, rather than the Jesuits, and the Franciscans.
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Post by: kronk
Manchu wrote:But it's hardly that the Jesuits and Franciscans don't get along or represent some kind of political or ideological divide.
Divide? No. However, it's time for the church to address the scandals and put them to rest. There are other ideology issues (views on gays, single parents, birth control) and perhaps church framework changes (the role of nuns in the church) that I'd consider us (if I can use that word as a former Catholic) in need of addressing. In order to do any of this, you need a strong pope and a unified church. I hope he's the man for the job and that *some* progress can be made along those lines.
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Post by: Manchu
I guess what I'm saying is, Bergoglio did not choose the name Francis to reach out to Franciscans.
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Post by: Frazzled
Manchu wrote: kronk wrote:It sends the message that although he is Jesuit, he's reaching out to the Franciscans.
Is that a joke?
You know this is the end times right?
Asteroids falling from the sky.
New pope taking the name of Francis
Francis is the patron saint for doggie lovers and doggies.
March 17, 2013 (live CNN feed)
"Pope Franky Five Fingers today announced 'cats kiss your asses goodbye hahaha!' and opened up the secret chest of St. Francis, opening the gateway to Dachshundheim."
We're now going live to Tom McGuidry at the Vatican. What do you see Tom?"
"This is Tom McGuidry live at the Vatican. The Pope has just exited the Sistine Chapel. He appears to be wearing a TShirt of some kind. I think it says 'Dachshund is German for little pain in the ass.' Whats this? The doorway is opening. It appears to be a wave of some kind. Yes yes its OHMYGODSOMANYWIENERDOGS RUN!"
Deep in his infernal lair, Frazzled smiles.
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Post by: Alfndrate
Also to Breotan's comment earlier, He is and will remain Francis (and not Francis I) until there is a Francis II).
Edit: Frazz, I'm fairly certain that the last pope would have had a better chance at unleashing the Dachsund hordes...
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Post by: Steve steveson
Apparently Benedict is a cat lover... Dose this mean we are going to see a Cat/Dog schism in the vatican?
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Post by: Frazzled
TO WAR! There shall be no dawn for catkind.
Seriously why do they rename themselves after saints? That seems a bit presumptuous.
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Post by: Manchu
Think of your own personal name.
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Post by: Frazzled
Noog? Actually Pope Noog sounds pretty cool
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Post by: Manchu
You've read your nametag in the mirror again, Frazz.
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Post by: Frazzled
Manchu wrote:You've read your nametag in the mirror again, Frazz.
Nah Pope Goon doesn't have the same ring.
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Post by: Gitzbitah
Isn't Pope's Goon what you call a Swiss Guard if you want some cool scars as a souvenir of your time in the Vatican?
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Post by: Frazzled
Gitzbitah wrote:Isn't Pope's Goon what you call a Swiss Guard if you want some cool scars as a souvenir of your time in the Vatican?
Good one. Can the Swiss Guard smack you with impugnity - aka they are set to autoaforgive or something?
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Post by: Lone Cat
 Lord Bingo wrote:Considering that was over 1200 years ago, it is safe to say he is the first non European Pope in a while.
Or say that he's the first Pope from continental America.
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Post by: Mad Monk's Mekshop
Oh dear, yet another "holy father"... they always make a really absent and malicious impression on me, for some reason... 
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Post by: Frazzled
 r3n3g8b0y wrote:Oh dear, yet another "holy father"... they always make a really absent and malicious impression on me, for some reason...
A good psychiatrist might help with that.
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