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Miniwargaming online store closes (Canadian Online Retailer) @ 2013/03/20 17:55:28


Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured


Well it looks like the GW sales terms change have claimed a victim
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EnPpfs120DA

although (according to the video) this is not the ONLY reason for the store closure


(MODS: I know there is a GW sales terms thread, but I think this may require one of its own, if you disagree feel free to move this)


Miniwargaming online store closes (Canadian Online Retailer) @ 2013/03/20 18:01:28


Post by: Eldarain


This is odd. They still carry other company's products. As well as their own Dark Potential game.


Miniwargaming online store closes (Canadian Online Retailer) @ 2013/03/20 18:14:23


Post by: Sean_OBrien


Most retail stores are on tight margins, game stores tend to be even closer to the line between keeping the lights on and closing shop.

For a shop like MWG, they probably made close to 50% of their sales from GW products and probably 90% of those sales through online customers. If you figure that they get 35% of the sales for their revenue...little bit of math, carry the two...the new terms just cut 15% off the top of their business. Since I doubt they have a few hundred people they can lay off or a warehouse or two that they can downsize, then it causes most stores to close down.

I doubt they will be the last either, as a number of other stores will be put in the same position as a result of one clause or another in the new terms.


Miniwargaming online store closes (Canadian Online Retailer) @ 2013/03/20 18:20:09


Post by: Alfndrate


They are giving away all 14 of their dvds. I've got some of them already, might be worth it to pick it up. Shame they're closing, they grated on me after awhile, but they're good guys and they generally try to have fun with the game.


Miniwargaming online store closes (Canadian Online Retailer) @ 2013/03/20 18:23:49


Post by: theninjabadger


This is why everyone hates GW


Miniwargaming online store closes (Canadian Online Retailer) @ 2013/03/20 18:26:47


Post by: WarOne


Well, how long before others decide to go this route? GW is not the end all, but their restrictions will probably end up pushing more companies to quit rather than fight and lose profits.


Miniwargaming online store closes (Canadian Online Retailer) @ 2013/03/20 18:31:33


Post by: pretre


Already covered in this thread:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/514316.page

edit: And I know you called that out, but we are specifically discussing MWG's video in the last page or so of that thread.


Miniwargaming online store closes (Canadian Online Retailer) @ 2013/03/20 18:36:28


Post by: Sean_OBrien


 WarOne wrote:
Well, how long before others decide to go this route? GW is not the end all, but their restrictions will probably end up pushing more companies to quit rather than fight and lose profits.


June 1st would be my guess. It gives them time to burn through stock and possibly run some sales near the end. Since the new rules dont go into place till the 15th of June, I would guess most companies will wait till then to make announcements that they will be shutting down.


Miniwargaming online store closes (Canadian Online Retailer) @ 2013/03/20 18:49:50


Post by: Absolutionis


I'm not Canadian, but I really liked these guys. They made nice videos and I occasionally watched them. Their retort to last year's price hike was also beautiful.

Good to know they're only shutting down a store and not going away completely.


Miniwargaming online store closes (Canadian Online Retailer) @ 2013/03/20 18:53:06


Post by: Sigvatr


MWG was another big factor that brought me back to WHFB...I loved their batreps and they were pretty sympathic people. And that's coming from a German :/

I'm pretty damn happy I got one full army for each system and one of it is 100% second hand. Because feck you GW!


Miniwargaming online store closes (Canadian Online Retailer) @ 2013/03/20 19:02:03


Post by: Crazy_Carnifex


Sad to see them go. Hope they can keep Dark Potential and the videos going. They did say that the vault was a big money maker for them, so I may look into that.

Anyways, good luck to them, and anyone else want to participate in a futile bought of letter writing?


Miniwargaming online store closes (Canadian Online Retailer) @ 2013/03/20 19:02:15


Post by: RatBot


That sucks. I wish the MWG guys the best of luck. I love watching their batreps.


This is apparently how GW intends to "protect and grow The Hobby (TM 'Hobby' copyright GW 1980)".


Miniwargaming online store closes (Canadian Online Retailer) @ 2013/03/20 19:07:08


Post by: Harriticus


A major win for GW I bet they're happy about getting rid of loyal enthusiasts like this.


Miniwargaming online store closes (Canadian Online Retailer) @ 2013/03/20 19:08:43


Post by: Sigvatr


Let's go to GW's facebook site and tell them about what we think of t....

..oh.


Miniwargaming online store closes (Canadian Online Retailer) @ 2013/03/20 20:16:14


Post by: paqman


I just passed an order with them to help them with their stocks and this will officially be my last purchase of new stuff from GW.
Used purchases from eBay from now on. I can only vote my disaproval with my wallet and that's the only option I have since I am hooked to this game.


Miniwargaming online store closes (Canadian Online Retailer) @ 2013/03/20 20:32:53


Post by: Breotan


 Alfndrate wrote:
They are giving away all 14 of their dvds.
Where did you see this?


Miniwargaming online store closes (Canadian Online Retailer) @ 2013/03/20 20:37:31


Post by: Alfndrate


 Breotan wrote:
 Alfndrate wrote:
They are giving away all 14 of their dvds.
Where did you see this?


The video he uploaded after the big 26 minute one. I'd post it, but I can't grab the url


Miniwargaming online store closes (Canadian Online Retailer) @ 2013/03/20 20:42:11


Post by: Motograter


GW are trying to get people to go to their webstore or in their stores by shafting the smaller companies little knowing that they are infact making it worse for themselves by doing these stupid things.

All they will do is end up alienating customers who resent them as it is just even more so. Good game GW, good game


Miniwargaming online store closes (Canadian Online Retailer) @ 2013/03/20 21:05:44


Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured


The DVD givaway is a 'trial' for which you have to provide a CC/Paypal account, and will roll into a subscription if you don't cancel in time

http://www.miniwargaming.com/freedvds

not something I'm interested in, but if you're on the ball enough to record the content and cancel in time....

(I've no idea how easy it will be to cancel, some 'trials' make it difficult/impossible. I've no evidence that this is the case here, but it is a potential concern)


Miniwargaming online store closes (Canadian Online Retailer) @ 2013/03/20 21:08:22


Post by: Breotan


Why bother? If the tutorials are good, then pay them for making them and just download new ones as they come out.


Miniwargaming online store closes (Canadian Online Retailer) @ 2013/03/20 21:19:49


Post by: conker249


MWG got me into 40k and fantasy. Love their batreps. Apocalipicon last year was 500,000 points. Sad to see them having to close up the online store. Hope they stick around.


Miniwargaming online store closes (Canadian Online Retailer) @ 2013/03/20 21:22:04


Post by: fleetofclaw


Good ol' GW protecting their retailers!


Miniwargaming online store closes (Canadian Online Retailer) @ 2013/03/20 21:30:08


Post by: PanzerTC


I love the Battle Reports like so many others. They really have done a lot to spread the hobby on youtube. It is sad to see this happen.



Miniwargaming online store closes (Canadian Online Retailer) @ 2013/03/20 21:37:16


Post by: SickSix


Motograter wrote:
GW are trying to get people to go to their webstore or in their stores by shafting the smaller companies little knowing that they are infact making it worse for themselves by doing these stupid things.

All they will do is end up alienating customers who resent them as it is just even more so. Good game GW, good game


There isn't an official GW store within 3 hours drive of where I live. And paying full retail for this kits is out of the question. So if that is their strategy they just lost me completely.

The way things are going, I can fully continue to play 40k based on 3rd party sellers alone. Hell, I can even build most of a 30k FW army now without FW or GW models.

I love their IP. I love the 40k lore. I will keep up with the HH books and other BL books.

But I can continue participating in 40k in my local area by only buying rule books. My existing armies (including unassembled kits) will last me a long while and I can buy enough 3rd party proxies to grow and adapt my SM armies for a long time.



Miniwargaming online store closes (Canadian Online Retailer) @ 2013/03/20 21:56:08


Post by: Zweischneid


 SickSix wrote:


There isn't an official GW store within 3 hours drive of where I live. And paying full retail for this kits is out of the question. So if that is their strategy they just lost me completely.




That doesn't make sense.

If you're living in the US, as your dakka-flag implies, you've been living under the exact same GW rules that now got imposed on Canada for the last 10 years.

No changes for you.


Miniwargaming online store closes (Canadian Online Retailer) @ 2013/03/20 22:01:00


Post by: Sean_OBrien


 Zweischneid wrote:
 SickSix wrote:


There isn't an official GW store within 3 hours drive of where I live. And paying full retail for this kits is out of the question. So if that is their strategy they just lost me completely.




That doesn't make sense.

If you're living in the US, as your dakka-flag implies, you've been living under the exact same GW rules that now got imposed on Canada for the last 10 years.

No changes for you.


Not exactly, plenty of stores have been using various workarounds to avoid the internet ban that went in place back in 2003. In fact, right now if you go to the US Amazon site you can find no less than 2 dozen companies who are selling GW products through Amazon. Other companies have been using distributors who did not have the follow on ban in place and where able to buy from a distributor and sell online, and finally you had the variety of stores who utilized eBay and sites like that to sell whole (or nearly whole) kits...which is now also banned.


Miniwargaming online store closes (Canadian Online Retailer) @ 2013/03/20 22:01:48


Post by: timetowaste85


I've only bought from MWG once on a huge Mantic sale they were running, but I've watched a bunch of their youtube videos, they've been very informative, and they seem like a friendly group of guys. It's sad to see them close up shop. I really thought this new GW rule wouldn't end up really affecting anybody, and now I see that I'm wrong. Matt, my condolences to you and your crew, as it was very obvious from the video how upset you were and how much conflict you were going through on what to say. I applaud your ability to not lambaste GW with the vitriol they deserve for this decision, but you've risen above them.

GW, if you do read this, you are forcing guys out who promote your company far better than you do, and they are responsible for prolonging your life. When the end does come, you'll have nobody to blame but yourself. You truly do need to stop taking other people down with you.


Miniwargaming online store closes (Canadian Online Retailer) @ 2013/03/20 22:22:40


Post by: Empchild


This is disappointing as I never like to see businesses go under especially ones that are conducting good business.


Miniwargaming online store closes (Canadian Online Retailer) @ 2013/03/20 22:23:27


Post by: SickSix


 Zweischneid wrote:
 SickSix wrote:


There isn't an official GW store within 3 hours drive of where I live. And paying full retail for this kits is out of the question. So if that is their strategy they just lost me completely.




That doesn't make sense.

If you're living in the US, as your dakka-flag implies, you've been living under the exact same GW rules that now got imposed on Canada for the last 10 years.

No changes for you.


But you missed the intent in the post I quoted: (paraphrase) 'GW is pushing everyone into their stores and website'

Also, see Sean's post above.


Miniwargaming online store closes (Canadian Online Retailer) @ 2013/03/20 22:29:42


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 Harriticus wrote:
A major win for GW I bet they're happy about getting rid of loyal enthusiasts like this.


Nothing really feels as good as driving other people out of business with your short-sighted and anti-competitive business practices.

*raises glass*

Here’s to another embargo!


Miniwargaming online store closes (Canadian Online Retailer) @ 2013/03/20 23:03:48


Post by: ammp


I like MWG's videos and what not, but it all seemed very self righteous.

The truth is, not many stores mark a huge difference in their business via online - Yes, MWG provide lots of good insightful videos, but no more than any body else could do.

Their store was an office, clearly something they're going to keep, and by the sound of it they've managed to forge themselves a career out of the hobby via videos, good for them, but if you watch their videos, they clearly have a very small face to face customer base (proven by the limited amount of opponents in their batreps). In reality, if they continue doing their good videos, its no difference to anyone.


Miniwargaming online store closes (Canadian Online Retailer) @ 2013/03/20 23:16:53


Post by: Breotan


Given that Neal (TheWarStore) and MiniatureMarket.com stay in business and sell GW product well enough, I'm not sure why MWG is doing this.


Miniwargaming online store closes (Canadian Online Retailer) @ 2013/03/20 23:29:47


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Maybe watch the video and find out?


Miniwargaming online store closes (Canadian Online Retailer) @ 2013/03/20 23:31:07


Post by: Ouze


I can't believe how calm he was. I watched all of it and he was just like, well, here's where we are, and here's how we got here - if it was me i'd be all red-faced and furious.

But I guess that's the Canadian way, eh?


Miniwargaming online store closes (Canadian Online Retailer) @ 2013/03/20 23:39:55


Post by: Krinsath


 Breotan wrote:
Given that Neal (TheWarStore) and MiniatureMarket.com stay in business and sell GW product well enough, I'm not sure why MWG is doing this.


I suspect because they did a sizable amount of foreign trade that is soon going to be prohibited. The numbers on solely Canadian buyers obviously showed that it was not worth the effort to maintain, so they're getting out before they start losing money on the deal (I.e. - smart business). Could they be like Neal and effectively become a distributor of everything? Sure, but there's a lot of money going into a "maybe we can compete" and putting what sounds like many people's livelihoods at risk hoping to sell someone else's stuff.

In the end, they decided to bet on themselves making a product people will want. Best of luck to them on that.


Miniwargaming online store closes (Canadian Online Retailer) @ 2013/03/20 23:42:24


Post by: nkelsch


 Breotan wrote:
Given that Neal (TheWarStore) and MiniatureMarket.com stay in business and sell GW product well enough, I'm not sure why MWG is doing this.


TheWarStore and MiniatureMarket.com seem to stock a huge array of product lines besides GW so they are a very robust online retailer regardless of GW.

It looks like MWG stocks 2 product lines, GW and PP (and some 3rd one they said they will continue to support). And he said GW was like 60%+ of his online business. He would either need to do the work to expand into loads of other products to have a more substantial base of products to justify continued s online store, or just 'not bother' being an online retailer and stick to focusing on being a FLGS and an online podcast group.

It made sense to me. I thought he explained it pretty well.


Miniwargaming online store closes (Canadian Online Retailer) @ 2013/03/20 23:43:15


Post by: Surtur


 Ouze wrote:
I can't believe how calm he was. I watched all of it and he was just like, well, here's where we are, and here's how we got here - if it was me i'd be all red-faced and furious.

But I guess that's the Canadian way, eh?


To me it seems that he's tired. It could be the shadows, but I think I spy some circles under his eyes.


Miniwargaming online store closes (Canadian Online Retailer) @ 2013/03/20 23:46:50


Post by: OverwatchCNC


 Surtur wrote:
 Ouze wrote:
I can't believe how calm he was. I watched all of it and he was just like, well, here's where we are, and here's how we got here - if it was me i'd be all red-faced and furious.

But I guess that's the Canadian way, eh?


To me it seems that he's tired. It could be the shadows, but I think I spy some circles under his eyes.


That would be the fading evidence of two black eyes courtesy of GW.


Miniwargaming online store closes (Canadian Online Retailer) @ 2013/03/20 23:50:32


Post by: wufai


 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
The DVD givaway is a 'trial' for which you have to provide a CC/Paypal account, and will roll into a subscription if you don't cancel in time

http://www.miniwargaming.com/freedvds

not something I'm interested in, but if you're on the ball enough to record the content and cancel in time....

(I've no idea how easy it will be to cancel, some 'trials' make it difficult/impossible. I've no evidence that this is the case here, but it is a potential concern)


I've signed with MWG's offer before, first time I used the 7 day free trial and have no problem cancelling after I grabbed my free goodies. afterwards they continue to produce intertested DVD subjects so I became a permenat member.

The DVD themsevles are great. They go beyond the tabletop quality (not golden deamon) but does get the new painter/modeller great tips on improving their skills.


Miniwargaming online store closes (Canadian Online Retailer) @ 2013/03/21 00:03:27


Post by: Lockark


*Sigh*
I've never been a big fan of Miniwargameing's self righousness they could boast at times. But truth be told they are right here.

GW has just been acting agiest the interest of their fan base, consumers, and partners and this is just another step in that direction.


Miniwargaming online store closes (Canadian Online Retailer) @ 2013/03/21 00:16:27


Post by: Rotgut


 Lockark wrote:
*Sigh*
I've never been a big fan of Miniwargameing's self righousness they could boast at times. But truth be told they are right here.

GW has just been acting agiest the interest of their fan base, consumers, and partners and this is just another step in that direction.


I completely agree with you on both things.

I would like to add more to the conversation, but I couldnt sit through the entire video. I know that they have said how important the online store was to their profits and so on, and while they could use the same tactics as the warstore I think they dont want to risk going under since alot of their orders go to the U.S. which they now cannot ship to.


Miniwargaming online store closes (Canadian Online Retailer) @ 2013/03/21 00:43:18


Post by: Eldarain


Online sales must really be a huge part of their business if this asinine decision by GW is closing both their online as well as physical store.


Miniwargaming online store closes (Canadian Online Retailer) @ 2013/03/21 01:01:29


Post by: Alpharius


Online sales of GW product apparently were...


Miniwargaming online store closes (Canadian Online Retailer) @ 2013/03/21 01:43:15


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


And direct sales only.


Miniwargaming online store closes (Canadian Online Retailer) @ 2013/03/21 01:51:42


Post by: Yodhrin


wufai wrote:
 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
The DVD givaway is a 'trial' for which you have to provide a CC/Paypal account, and will roll into a subscription if you don't cancel in time

http://www.miniwargaming.com/freedvds

not something I'm interested in, but if you're on the ball enough to record the content and cancel in time....

(I've no idea how easy it will be to cancel, some 'trials' make it difficult/impossible. I've no evidence that this is the case here, but it is a potential concern)


I've signed with MWG's offer before, first time I used the 7 day free trial and have no problem cancelling after I grabbed my free goodies. afterwards they continue to produce intertested DVD subjects so I became a permenat member.

The DVD themsevles are great. They go beyond the tabletop quality (not golden deamon) but does get the new painter/modeller great tips on improving their skills.


Yeah, frankly I intended to just pull a smash&grab to download all the free stuff and then cancel, because I was expecting them to make it as difficult as possible to take advantage of the offer, but; all the files are DRM-free, they're not imposing artificial caps on my download speed(I'll likely be able to grab their whole library in the next couple of hours, gotta love 50meg cable), and cancelling looks simple enough. I'll likely let the membership run for at least a few months purely because they were honest when they said "free", which is rare these days.


Miniwargaming online store closes (Canadian Online Retailer) @ 2013/03/21 01:59:42


Post by: jaygonx


Really sad to see these guys shut down their store...

Hopefully their vault continues to grow.

F*** you GW.


Miniwargaming online store closes (Canadian Online Retailer) @ 2013/03/21 02:12:24


Post by: Yonan


Shame, seemed like nice blokes.

Will this be enough of a catalyst for a retailer/distributor boycott. We can only hope.


Miniwargaming online store closes (Canadian Online Retailer) @ 2013/03/21 02:16:24


Post by: Goliath


In this thread:
"GW is evil for forcing this game store owner to shut down!"
Also
"How can I manipulate this show of good faith by the game store so I don't have to pay them to get stuff that otherwise they'd make money from?"

Yeah.


Miniwargaming online store closes (Canadian Online Retailer) @ 2013/03/21 02:32:43


Post by: steve2112


I live near the warstore and phsyically go there to buy stuff. He has a LARGE amount of everything. He has a huge inventory. It is freaking awesome. The largest amount of stuff for any one system goes to GW with PP being second. So unless things are drop shipping from somewhere he might be able to weather it.

I have to convince my FLGS to stock mantic

nkelsch wrote:
 Breotan wrote:
Given that Neal (TheWarStore) and MiniatureMarket.com stay in business and sell GW product well enough, I'm not sure why MWG is doing this.


TheWarStore and MiniatureMarket.com seem to stock a huge array of product lines besides GW so they are a very robust online retailer regardless of GW.

It looks like MWG stocks 2 product lines, GW and PP (and some 3rd one they said they will continue to support). And he said GW was like 60%+ of his online business. He would either need to do the work to expand into loads of other products to have a more substantial base of products to justify continued s online store, or just 'not bother' being an online retailer and stick to focusing on being a FLGS and an online podcast group.

It made sense to me. I thought he explained it pretty well.


Miniwargaming online store closes (Canadian Online Retailer) @ 2013/03/21 02:33:12


Post by: Yonan


 Goliath wrote:
"How can we stop this from further damaging our hobby.

ftfy


Miniwargaming online store closes (Canadian Online Retailer) @ 2013/03/21 03:00:55


Post by: Avakael


welp.... this is just sad. Filling up an MWG e-shopping cart with War Machine now. :(


Miniwargaming online store closes (Canadian Online Retailer) @ 2013/03/21 03:04:32


Post by: xraytango


I would say boycott GW, but getting everyone on board with that is the very definition of the word "futile"


Miniwargaming online store closes (Canadian Online Retailer) @ 2013/03/21 03:10:35


Post by: Soo'Vah'Cha


Ok, that really pisses me off...GW is like a ex-wife, you loved her once but now all she does is make you angry with stupid decisions..but there is still something there to love.

The GW online store would not ship to our APO overseas, so we had to go through a alternate store that got what we wanted to us, and now unless they change that policy service members will have to have family ship them or just go cold turkey on deployment.

I hate to see a good site like MWG close due ( inpart or whatever) to GW's asinine shortsighted, corporate stuffed suit, trained (barely)chimp execs ideas on how to make more money in the short term, I have always been pretty forgiving about companies calls on how they do bussines but this is kinda my last straw..I will have to think about any future purchases.


Miniwargaming online store closes (Canadian Online Retailer) @ 2013/03/21 03:22:25


Post by: Surtur


 Goliath wrote:
In this thread:
"GW is evil for forcing this game store owner to shut down!"


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome


Miniwargaming online store closes (Canadian Online Retailer) @ 2013/03/21 04:13:02


Post by: Ravenous D


 Eldarain wrote:
This is odd. They still carry other company's products. As well as their own Dark Potential game.


Watch the video, with Direct only items alone they were doing $5000 a month, the new trade agreement knocked it down to a limit of $500, thats a big chunk of money. Thats the difference of doing alright and being non profitable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Eldarain wrote:
Online sales must really be a huge part of their business if this asinine decision by GW is closing both their online as well as physical store.


As said in the video GW seems to think that the thousands of people using Miniwargaming and the Warstore will all go straight to GW online. Which is insane, instead they probably just lost 70% of those customers. Word of mouth is a big deal and GW will hopefully find that out soon.


Miniwargaming online store closes (Canadian Online Retailer) @ 2013/03/21 06:14:27


Post by: cgage00


My two cents here.

I like mwg for the most part some stuff is cool other stuff is well lame. The fact they are shutting down cause games workshop is enforcing a rule that has been in effect in the US for years. Sounds like either A) bad money management poor economy and using gw as a good dramatic way out or B) they had no real shop it was all online which is totally against gw policy( I know I tried). Or there could be another reason but to stop sales on all products screams there is more going on here.

Now with that said the warstore has been selling online(ish) for years. I buy a good amount from them but I always try to buy from my local store for a number of reasons biggest is that it helps the local economy.

Will I stop buying gw product due to their changes? No
Do I think their policy is right? No I think it's odd not sure I fully understand it but I can see their point of not wanting a single guy flooding the market with cheap gw product. It hurts business all over the world.


Miniwargaming online store closes (Canadian Online Retailer) @ 2013/03/21 06:28:58


Post by: Sean_OBrien


Or it could just be that the new terms effectively cut the 15% or so off the top of their business which would kill pretty much any store...even if it were running fairly strong in the local economy.

The internet is a great thing for companies who are able to properly leverage it and create a larger market for themselves beyond their local customers. It has allowed a lot of businesses to continue and grow.

The stronger Canadian dollar compared to the US dollar has likely encouraged more of their potential customers to order from a US based supplier like The Warstore. I know more than a few companies (outside of gaming) in Canada who have seen their online sales drop a good bit in the past 5 years largely attributed to exchange rates.

GW's actions are a definite nail in the coffin though for a lot of companies. When you develop a business plan, you assume that certain activities will be part of your business. They built their business with online sales as a large part of it. This isn't unusual at all, and up until these new terms - it was perfectly allowed under the retail trade terms for Canadian businesses (just as it is still allowed for UK/EU businesses).

Assuming that the store has to close down because of mismanagement or that they had no retail presence (the store that is in the background of their videos is bigger than a few B&M only stores that I have been in) is not really a valid leap.

That said, I am pretty sure the new terms violate the Competition Act - so they could probably stick with it if they wanted to fight with GW for a bit.



Miniwargaming online store closes (Canadian Online Retailer) @ 2013/03/21 06:41:14


Post by: McNinja


nkelsch wrote:
(and some 3rd one they said they will continue to support)
You mean Dark Potential? The game MWG is producing?


Miniwargaming online store closes (Canadian Online Retailer) @ 2013/03/21 06:42:45


Post by: Surtur


 cgage00 wrote:
My two cents here.

I like mwg for the most part some stuff is cool other stuff is well lame. The fact they are shutting down cause games workshop is enforcing a rule that has been in effect in the US for years. Sounds like either A) bad money management poor economy and using gw as a good dramatic way out or B) they had no real shop it was all online which is totally against gw policy( I know I tried). Or there could be another reason but to stop sales on all products screams there is more going on here.

Now with that said the warstore has been selling online(ish) for years. I buy a good amount from them but I always try to buy from my local store for a number of reasons biggest is that it helps the local economy.

Will I stop buying gw product due to their changes? No
Do I think their policy is right? No I think it's odd not sure I fully understand it but I can see their point of not wanting a single guy flooding the market with cheap gw product. It hurts business all over the world.


There were multiple issues at hand. Their direct order to GW took a $4.5k hit per month alone. Direct orders constituting things they don't normally carry like most blisters. Making online shopping to say the least a great hassle and an oxymoron also hits their sales as people are disincentivized from purchases. Phone ordering things died out a long time ago and handing your credit card info over in that manner makes people uneasy.

As for their policy, the market functions under survival of the fittest. GW is attempting to cut out the middle man and take full revenue from it's retail prices through policies that hurt everyone and remove competition of it's good with its distributors. Meaning, they don't want to compete in a market at all. Ever. Their list of horrific policies shows this time and again. There is no such thing as someone person flooding the market with cheap GW stuff. GW still gets a cut and the store that sells it takes it's cut. By giving discounts retailers hurt their own profit in hopes to attract more customers to make up for the loss of revenue per product. The retailers have been functioning as capitalistic ventures, GW has not. If you don't mind GW bullying small businesses, which is the ONLY thing these policies target, then go ahead and keep supporting them.


Miniwargaming online store closes (Canadian Online Retailer) @ 2013/03/21 06:42:46


Post by: Mecha_buddha


 cgage00 wrote:
My two cents here.

I like mwg for the most part some stuff is cool other stuff is well lame. The fact they are shutting down cause games workshop is enforcing a rule that has been in effect in the US for years. Sounds like either A) bad money management poor economy and using gw as a good dramatic way out or B) they had no real shop it was all online which is totally against gw policy( I know I tried). Or there could be another reason but to stop sales on all products screams there is more going on here.

Now with that said the warstore has been selling online(ish) for years. I buy a good amount from them but I always try to buy from my local store for a number of reasons biggest is that it helps the local economy.

Will I stop buying gw product due to their changes? No
Do I think their policy is right? No I think it's odd not sure I fully understand it but I can see their point of not wanting a single guy flooding the market with cheap gw product. It hurts business all over the world.



On this I would take him at face value. Online GW sales were a large part of their business. Now they cannot sell online, and what they can sell locally is being slashed (see his bit on direct order). Welland (where MWG is based) is not a large city, not large enough to support the store they have.

They have LGS close in Niagara falls and St. Catharines, which are bigger cities, so its doubtful people would drive out to MWG, especially since their physical store is not open Sunday or Monday.


Miniwargaming online store closes (Canadian Online Retailer) @ 2013/03/21 06:46:23


Post by: SonicPara


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Nothing really feels as good as driving other people out of business with your short-sighted and anti-competitive business practices.

*raises glass*

Here’s to another embargo!


I used to rapidly grow tired of your comments about GW but now...

...now all I can do is pour a glass for myself and join your toast.

Oh how the last year has changed things.


Miniwargaming online store closes (Canadian Online Retailer) @ 2013/03/21 06:46:38


Post by: cgage00


 Sean_OBrien wrote:
Or it could just be that the new terms effectively cut the 15% or so off the top of their business which would kill pretty much any store...even if it were running fairly strong in the local economy.

The internet is a great thing for companies who are able to properly leverage it and create a larger market for themselves beyond their local customers. It has allowed a lot of businesses to continue and grow.

The stronger Canadian dollar compared to the US dollar has likely encouraged more of their potential customers to order from a US based supplier like The Warstore. I know more than a few companies (outside of gaming) in Canada who have seen their online sales drop a good bit in the past 5 years largely attributed to exchange rates.

GW's actions are a definite nail in the coffin though for a lot of companies. When you develop a business plan, you assume that certain activities will be part of your business. They built their business with online sales as a large part of it. This isn't unusual at all, and up until these new terms - it was perfectly allowed under the retail trade terms for Canadian businesses (just as it is still allowed for UK/EU businesses).

Assuming that the store has to close down because of mismanagement or that they had no retail presence (the store that is in the background of their videos is bigger than a few B&M only stores that I have been in) is not really a valid leap.

That said, I am pretty sure the new terms violate the Competition Act - so they could probably stick with it if they wanted to fight with GW for a bit.



15% of there total sales are online gw only? That is a good amount. But to shut down is a bit drastic. It's like rage quitting a game. But that is what they want I can't stop them nor do I want to. It's hard to run a business. I think they should look at us based companies that have been selling under this long existing gw policy and take example.


Miniwargaming online store closes (Canadian Online Retailer) @ 2013/03/21 07:04:05


Post by: dionysus


 Surtur wrote:
 Goliath wrote:
In this thread:
"GW is evil for forcing this game store owner to shut down!"


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome


Read his whole post man! He was making a great point about consumers on here complaining about how evil GW is to the flgs, while the same consumers are plotting how to steal from said store.

GWs new policy is hard to fathom, and it sucks that they are running away great people who support the community. But at the same time there is something to be said about basing your whole business model on the goods from one knowingly fickle manufacturer. It leaves you dependent on their every business decision, and not the master of your own destiny.



Miniwargaming online store closes (Canadian Online Retailer) @ 2013/03/21 07:09:11


Post by: Sean_OBrien


 cgage00 wrote:


15% of there total sales are online gw only? That is a good amount. But to shut down is a bit drastic. It's like rage quitting a game. But that is what they want I can't stop them nor do I want to. It's hard to run a business. I think they should look at us based companies that have been selling under this long existing gw policy and take example.


No - I believe he said around 70% were...though I would need to take another listen to be certain.

The 15% comes out of his pile of money after he purchases stock to do things like pay the bills and put food in his belly. If you figure that of the 100% the store makes, 70% of that is GW online, he has a 40% margin on that...

When I was growing up, our family had owned two different stores (hardware and drugstore) and neither of them could have afforded to have 15% taken out of the top of the business - most were running at 5% or less wiggle room each year. That is the nature of retail business. After you pay your suppliers, pay your utilities, pay your employees, pay the government you have enough left over to pay yourself a bit...but very few people get rich running an independent store of any kind.

Regarding a conventional B&M LGS - that might not have been an option. Any number of factors tie you to a given geographic location. Apparently it was a smaller town (according to Mecha_Buddha) and it may not have had a population that could support a LGS on its own - but combined with internet sales they were able to do as much. Considering that GW claims to want to support LGS - cutting off their ability to serve smaller communities just goes to prove the fallacy.


Miniwargaming online store closes (Canadian Online Retailer) @ 2013/03/21 07:09:44


Post by: Surtur


 cgage00 wrote:
 Sean_OBrien wrote:
Or it could just be that the new terms effectively cut the 15% or so off the top of their business which would kill pretty much any store...even if it were running fairly strong in the local economy.

The internet is a great thing for companies who are able to properly leverage it and create a larger market for themselves beyond their local customers. It has allowed a lot of businesses to continue and grow.

The stronger Canadian dollar compared to the US dollar has likely encouraged more of their potential customers to order from a US based supplier like The Warstore. I know more than a few companies (outside of gaming) in Canada who have seen their online sales drop a good bit in the past 5 years largely attributed to exchange rates.

GW's actions are a definite nail in the coffin though for a lot of companies. When you develop a business plan, you assume that certain activities will be part of your business. They built their business with online sales as a large part of it. This isn't unusual at all, and up until these new terms - it was perfectly allowed under the retail trade terms for Canadian businesses (just as it is still allowed for UK/EU businesses).

Assuming that the store has to close down because of mismanagement or that they had no retail presence (the store that is in the background of their videos is bigger than a few B&M only stores that I have been in) is not really a valid leap.

That said, I am pretty sure the new terms violate the Competition Act - so they could probably stick with it if they wanted to fight with GW for a bit.



15% of there total sales are online gw only? That is a good amount. But to shut down is a bit drastic. It's like rage quitting a game. But that is what they want I can't stop them nor do I want to. It's hard to run a business. I think they should look at us based companies that have been selling under this long existing gw policy and take example.


You really have no clue. Getting set back at least 15% is HUGE. And the growth to come back from that will take a long time. From now till June is not a long time. This means all of their fixed costs like employees, bills and rent just became more drastic and all of their projects just became unaffordable luxuries. The US businesses have had a long time to recover and adapt and I'm sure several had problems handling the transition.


Miniwargaming online store closes (Canadian Online Retailer) @ 2013/03/21 07:12:49


Post by: Sean_OBrien


dionysus wrote:


GWs new policy is hard to fathom, and it sucks that they are running away great people who support the community. But at the same time there is something to be said about basing your whole business model on the goods from one knowingly fickle manufacturer. It leaves you dependent on their every business decision, and not the master of your own destiny.



In fairness, it isn't their whole business model - just their retail side. They plan on continuing their Vault program, which is independent of GW's trade terms (though I would caution them that GW might go after them for something like Trademark violations...as that is the sort of people GW are).


Miniwargaming online store closes (Canadian Online Retailer) @ 2013/03/21 07:27:41


Post by: Wayshuba


Two points he made in the video I think deserve some further consideration.

First, in an internet world how do most new customers find out about your company to begin with. Channels and word of mouth are still important. GW seems to think they can become like Amazon, yet even Amazon provides a lot of community interaction (Comments and reviews) on their site. GW's site is nothing but old school 1980's marketing speak which doesn't cut it in the 2010's.

Second, he talks briefly about an internet savvy customer base, which is completely true in today's day and age. Yet GW policy is more reflective of the 80s than the current generation. Since most real-time discussions (on forums and blogs) are better indexed in Google than a retail product splash piece, the majority of searches will pull up NEGATIVE information on GW as a majority. As a new customer, the internet is driving more people away than bringing them in since GW doesn't seem to do ANY internet outreach beyond their site. Also, unlike Amazon products, GW products require at least two people. GW doesn't promote community at all. This is a major structural difference between GW and Amazon customers, and therefore shows why it is folly for them to chase the Amazon structure.

In other words, GWs policies are going to make it harder and harder for them to gain new customers as time goes by while other competitors, being more internet savvy, will eventually overtake them. GW is acting more like Border's did in the face of a new start-up called Amazon. And look where that got Border's...

On their policy changes in general. I think GW is realizing, most likely, a hit in sales as a result of their ludicrous pricing. Instead of fixing that problem, they decide that they should collect all the margin on the products so they can make their profits. The last two years have shown some rather close-minded views, and an amazing amount of hubris, on why their products became as big as they did in the first place. Rather than admit their own decisions are hurting their business, they are basically blaming it on their retailers, and thinking they can do it better. GW would NEVER, and I mean NEVER, have ever been a major player in the North American markets if it wasn't for their independent retailers. Likewise, many of these same retailers will shift to promoting other game systems to survive. So GW will not gain those customers directly, they instead will move to other game systems.




Miniwargaming online store closes (Canadian Online Retailer) @ 2013/03/21 07:40:09


Post by: TechmarineNic


I`m glad Matt said they will still be doing videos, what I`m not sure about is can they only do it with Dark Potential and Warmachine/Hordes because they are not selling GW products no more..


Miniwargaming online store closes (Canadian Online Retailer) @ 2013/03/21 07:51:05


Post by: Mecha_buddha


 TechmarineNic wrote:
I`m glad Matt said they will still be doing videos, what I`m not sure about is can they only do it with Dark Potential and Warmachine/Hordes because they are not selling GW products no more..


Well with the store, they did videos on games they sold. From what it sounds like, if the vault and videos now becomes their main focus, they may branch out into games people want to see that they didnt previously sell.


Miniwargaming online store closes (Canadian Online Retailer) @ 2013/03/21 08:12:22


Post by: dionysus


 Sean_OBrien wrote:
dionysus wrote:


GWs new policy is hard to fathom, and it sucks that they are running away great people who support the community. But at the same time there is something to be said about basing your whole business model on the goods from one knowingly fickle manufacturer. It leaves you dependent on their every business decision, and not the master of your own destiny.



In fairness, it isn't their whole business model - just their retail side. They plan on continuing their Vault program, which is independent of GW's trade terms (though I would caution them that GW might go after them for something like Trademark violations...as that is the sort of people GW are).


True, but they are still planning to cater to the community with those videos, and the community is made up mostly of GW hobbyists.

Don't get me wrong Im not saying they fethed up in their business designs, just saying we should wish them luck with their new endeavors while we all learn the "eggs in one basket" lesson that is on display. The smartest move they are making is pulling out before it goes south. Regroup and recommit.

The end of the day, all this anger people have been tossing around isn't due to the inability to get some specific plastic guns for their overpriced plastic army men. Its to do with GW messing with the way people hobby. Someone earlier said it best when they mentioned that the lack of GW community support removes most of the "no 3rd party" rules that used to be an issue when there were actual GW supported tournies going on all the time. So there is no reason not to run to places like Kromlec to grab your plasmas, or maxmini to get some T-Hammers. The people this policy hurts the most are the super competitive power gamers who go to all the cool tournies, because now those folks will have to pay an even higher premium to have just the right list.

There seems to be a huge disconnect between the vision GW has for their game and the way we feel it should be played. Decisions like the ones GW has been making does not hurt the new players that GW is recruiting as kids. It also doesn't hurt the "Beer and pretzel" gamers who people all seem to laugh about every time GW makes the reference (as they can use whatever they want and call it a chimera.) It hurts all the Fluff Nazi, rules lawering, min maxing, power gamers (like myself.)

Which makes me realize it might be time to take a step back, use whatever bits i want, be creative again, kit-bash multiple company's kits together, and just learn how to have fun as a hobby again. As opposed to just buying the little plastic men, building them just like the box shows, equipping them the way the internet told me, then painting them in one of the official color schemes that have been pounded into my head as the "right" way to do it. All so i can win a tourney to get more little plastic men.

Talk to your local tourney organizers and see if the non sponsored events can be less restrictive about GW only.

(sorry for the block of text, END RANT.)


Miniwargaming online store closes (Canadian Online Retailer) @ 2013/03/21 09:47:32


Post by: Zweischneid


Mecha_buddha wrote:

Well with the store, they did videos on games they sold. From what it sounds like, if the vault and videos now becomes their main focus, they may branch out into games people want to see that they didnt previously sell.


True. But believe that this will ultimately mean more 40K videos, as that is what draws people to internet content.

On my small blog (not anywhere near the caliber of sites like miniwargaming), the most basic post or update on anything 40K will get at least 10 times more traffic than anything else I could ever write about other games. Hell, I wrote an interview with Adam Poots shortly before the Kickstarter launched. It got links from TGN, BoardGameGeek and much else and is probably one of my most visited non-40K posts on my site. I also wrote a short "Codex Dark Angels Review", a month or so after the release and long after most blogs did their reviews. It still beat the Poots-interview within a day or two by search-traffic alone.

Go to sites like BOLS and see how many comments, etc.. they get on a 40K review or tactica article and compare that to the comments they get on a Warmachine tactica article, etc.. .

If you're trying to make a decent income by doing online content only/mostly (e.g. BOLS, future MiniWarGaming), you'll need to do 40K, likely as much as 70% or 80% of your content minimum I'd guess.


Miniwargaming online store closes (Canadian Online Retailer) @ 2013/03/21 12:19:41


Post by: Goliath


 Surtur wrote:
 Goliath wrote:
In this thread:
"GW is evil for forcing this game store owner to shut down!"


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome

Was I defending GW?
(The answer is no)

I find some of their recent plans pretty annoying, and feel sorry for companies like this that have had to shut down because of them, but the fact that in the same thread where you can find this:
theninjabadger wrote:
This is why everyone hates GW


You can also find people discussing the ease with which you could cancel the subscription before the free trial ended.

Obviously me white-knighting, and not at all me finding the concept of criticising a policy that loses a business money whilst also trying to get stuff for free that you'd normally have to pay for, vaguely hypocritical.


Miniwargaming online store closes (Canadian Online Retailer) @ 2013/03/21 12:26:16


Post by: PhantomViper


 Goliath wrote:
 Surtur wrote:
 Goliath wrote:
In this thread:
"GW is evil for forcing this game store owner to shut down!"


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome

Was I defending GW?
(The answer is no)

I find some of their recent plans pretty annoying, and feel sorry for companies like this that have had to shut down because of them, but the fact that in the same thread where you can find this:
theninjabadger wrote:
This is why everyone hates GW


You can also find people discussing the ease with which you could cancel the subscription before the free trial ended.

Obviously me white-knighting, and not at all me finding the concept of criticising a policy that loses a business money whilst also trying to get stuff for free that you'd normally have to pay for, vaguely hypocritical.


1 person in the entire thread advocated this behaviour while condemning GW practices.

Obviously 1 person doing it = everyone in this thread is an hypocrite!


Miniwargaming online store closes (Canadian Online Retailer) @ 2013/03/21 12:30:02


Post by: Goliath


 Yonan wrote:
 Goliath wrote:
"How can we stop this from further damaging our hobby.

ftfy

But they're carrying on with making the videos!
Yes, if the company had gone nuclear and they'd decided to start again with a brand new knitting company then yes, maybe getting the videos for free might be justifiable whilst also complaining about GW, to "preserve the hobby".
But they're not.
They're still (as far as I can tell) going to be making the videos, and making money from them, so you going in and trying to get them for free by fething around with the subscription isn't "stopping this further damaging our hobby" it's removing income they might have gotten from the videos, and removing some of the reason for the videos being made in the first place.

Yes, I'm a fan of GW's models. No, I'm not a fan of their recent policies, but I don't go around criticising them for taking money out of retailers' pockets whilst publicly plotting to do the exact same thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
PhantomViper wrote:
 Goliath wrote:
 Surtur wrote:
 Goliath wrote:
In this thread:
"GW is evil for forcing this game store owner to shut down!"


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome

Was I defending GW?
(The answer is no)

I find some of their recent plans pretty annoying, and feel sorry for companies like this that have had to shut down because of them, but the fact that in the same thread where you can find this:
theninjabadger wrote:
This is why everyone hates GW


You can also find people discussing the ease with which you could cancel the subscription before the free trial ended.

Obviously me white-knighting, and not at all me finding the concept of criticising a policy that loses a business money whilst also trying to get stuff for free that you'd normally have to pay for, vaguely hypocritical.


1 person in the entire thread advocated this behaviour while condemning GW practices.

Obviously 1 person doing it = everyone in this thread is an hypocrite!

Did I say it was everyone in the thread? (The answer is no)

My hope was that people who were doing it might see my post and go "oh, you know what, I am being a bit hypocritical aren't I? I probably should pay for these videos."
But no, for the second time in this thread my posts have been misread or misinterpreted or misrepresented for a cheap shot that doesn't address the fact that this gak happens regularly be it hypocritical condemnations of companies (mainly GW, but there have been others), or complaints about pricing for stuff that really doesn't warrant it. But no "GW/PP/FW/THON sucks! GW/PP/FW/THON rules for the exact same reason that the other one sucks!" Is still considered a valid post, and agreed with by many, which makes me upset at the decline in logic over the past few years since I joined Dakka.

I'll admit, I do it too, but if I realise I've done it I'll just not post rather than posting and hoping people won't notice.


Miniwargaming online store closes (Canadian Online Retailer) @ 2013/03/21 18:43:25


Post by: lonedrow02


This is madness...no...no..its just GW and its HHHobby.

sadly enough i love the HHHobby but i always pay where i play.

In New England's case its always a LFGS.

Sad about MWG but i really couldnt stand their videos.


Miniwargaming online store closes (Canadian Online Retailer) @ 2013/03/21 19:09:41


Post by: Ironwill13791


I wish them luck with their videos (I watch them a lot), but the new policies contributing largely to them shutting down their store is pretty up. I live near a LGS and am going to continue to contribute by purchasing (and play) through them. I just feel bad that as a store they had to shut down; I mean you can see that Mat was kinda torn up about it.


Miniwargaming online store closes (Canadian Online Retailer) @ 2013/03/21 23:09:08


Post by: DeadWingman


 TechmarineNic wrote:
I`m glad Matt said they will still be doing videos, what I`m not sure about is can they only do it with Dark Potential and Warmachine/Hordes because they are not selling GW products no more..
They Said they are still going to do Warhammer 40k and Warhammer because they like the games


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ironwill13791 wrote:
I wish them luck with their videos (I watch them a lot), but the new policies contributing largely to them shutting down their store is pretty up. I live near a LGS and am going to continue to contribute by purchasing (and play) through them. I just feel bad that as a store they had to shut down; I mean you can see that Mat was kinda torn up about it.
It is just there online store that is shutting down.


Miniwargaming online store closes (Canadian Online Retailer) @ 2013/03/21 23:11:59


Post by: Alfndrate


DeadWingman wrote:
 TechmarineNic wrote:
I`m glad Matt said they will still be doing videos, what I`m not sure about is can they only do it with Dark Potential and Warmachine/Hordes because they are not selling GW products no more..
They Said they are still going to do Warhammer 40k and Warhammer because they like the games


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ironwill13791 wrote:
I wish them luck with their videos (I watch them a lot), but the new policies contributing largely to them shutting down their store is pretty up. I live near a LGS and am going to continue to contribute by purchasing (and play) through them. I just feel bad that as a store they had to shut down; I mean you can see that Mat was kinda torn up about it.
It is just there online store that is shutting down.


Watch the video, they're also closing down the physical store.


Miniwargaming online store closes (Canadian Online Retailer) @ 2013/03/24 19:43:55


Post by: PanzerTC


This is bad all around. If for nothing less there is one less physical store to go to and play, discuss, order from, etc.

I never used their promos because they just never saved me any more money than my local stores (even the ones in Europe vs. when I'm stateside).

They had closed the Europe store just as I found out about them.

Neal's store has always been the best option for me. He is a hop-skip and a jump away from the MPS in NY/NJ.

I have now placed two orders with them. My first and my last. The points earned (combined with a 40% off of one line and 30% on 3 GW items) more than made it worth my while to order and then get 95% off of 3 items and mainly just pay the shipping for them and $0.47 was more than I even thought possible.

I will miss these guys. I hope the polices and other factors can change to keep them going.

GW - the Great Weasel of addiction for over 20+ years. They are like Slurm.....


Miniwargaming online store closes (Canadian Online Retailer) @ 2013/03/25 00:18:24


Post by: chris_valera


 Eldarain wrote:
Online sales must really be a huge part of their business if this asinine decision by GW is closing both their online as well as physical store.


They were shipping out $5k a month, most of which I assume was to Australians trying to get around the embargo. A lot of Australians are starting DKOK armies because the trade terms for normal GW suck.

The thing is, i can kinda see their point. MWG doesn't add a ton to the hobby, and in fact probably costs GW sales. Most Australian gamers probably would go back to buying GW at their ridiculous prices if they shut them down. So they did.

It always sucks to hear about people losing their jobs in this economy, but they didn't really add anything to the hobby, and in fact were taking things away in Australia.

Bet you there's a ton of retailers in Australia that are happy about this.

--Chris
www.chrisvalera.com



Miniwargaming online store closes (Canadian Online Retailer) @ 2013/03/25 00:34:13


Post by: Sining


You're assuming the same people buying from MWG at discounted prices would buy at AU prices though from B&M AU retail stores. That may not be true


Miniwargaming online store closes (Canadian Online Retailer) @ 2013/03/25 00:56:38


Post by: Sidstyler


Well then what counts as "adding something to the hobby"? Personally if we're gonna go there then I want to be one of the first to proclaim that GW themselves don't really add anything to the hobby. If anything, a lot of what they've done in recent years has only hurt it. You could even blame them for stifling creativity to an extent, because every new game that comes out now has to be "compatible" with 40k, it has to match the same "heroic" scale that GW uses and the models have to be on the same style of bases. Any new models or parts that other companies put out have to be designed as obvious 40k proxies matching GW's aesthetic or there's no market for them. Etc.

Anyway, I used to watch MWG's videos a few years ago. Personally their video about Space Hulk's game play helped push me into buying a copy myself back when my store got them, even though I thought $100 was too high a price point for a board game and I was really unhappy about the limited nature of it to begin with (still kinda pissed that GW haven't done another print or made it permanently available). A lot of their tutorials and stuff were kinda basic and I wasn't too interested in the batreps, but it's pretty obvious these guys have a lot of enthusiasm for the hobby and I'm sure other people like having them around. In any case I certainly don't see how they aren't adding to the hobby by generating interest in it by showing people how to play, how to paint, and how to get started in general. One could argue they're doing more work to promote the game than GW is in that regard.

And needless to say I disagree with the rest. You're merely assuming that all of MWG's customers would have bought from GW at full MSRP if they weren't around, and that's not necessarily true. Especially if most of their customers were Australians like you're assuming, if their only option now is to pay unreasonably-high MSRP's or not play, then I imagine a lot of people will probably find another game sold by a company that actually wants their business.


Miniwargaming online store closes (Canadian Online Retailer) @ 2013/03/25 01:25:52


Post by: boyd


Are we mad because they are going out of business or that we can't get a 20-25% discount on GW products online anymore?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 chris_valera wrote:
 Eldarain wrote:
Online sales must really be a huge part of their business if this asinine decision by GW is closing both their online as well as physical store.


They were shipping out $5k a month, most of which I assume was to Australians trying to get around the embargo. A lot of Australians are starting DKOK armies because the trade terms for normal GW suck.

The thing is, i can kinda see their point. MWG doesn't add a ton to the hobby, and in fact probably costs GW sales. Most Australian gamers probably would go back to buying GW at their ridiculous prices if they shut them down. So they did.

--Chris
www.chrisvalera.com



It's tough to say GW lost a sale, did MWG not buy their products from GW?


Miniwargaming online store closes (Canadian Online Retailer) @ 2013/03/25 01:52:19


Post by: Alfndrate


Its 5k that MWG sold so if they got it from GW direct GW still made money, but they aren't making as much off the sales. And of they were going to Aussies then its a price disparity between the Canadian, British, and Australian prices.


Miniwargaming online store closes (Canadian Online Retailer) @ 2013/03/25 02:48:34


Post by: Sidstyler


boyd wrote:
Are we mad because they are going out of business or that we can't get a 20-25% discount on GW products online anymore?


I didn't buy from them, so most likely the former.


Miniwargaming online store closes (Canadian Online Retailer) @ 2013/03/25 03:12:57


Post by: insaniak


Sining wrote:
You're assuming the same people buying from MWG at discounted prices would buy at AU prices though from B&M AU retail stores. That may not be true
It's most definitely not true. And the new policy isn't going to persuade them to... It's just going to move their purchases to Ebay. The new trade terms do nothing more than remove the ability to compete from those stores who choose not to risk selling on Ebay, or whose margins don't allow for the extra fees per sale.



Miniwargaming online store closes (Canadian Online Retailer) @ 2013/03/26 13:13:24


Post by: Dark-Warrior-Art


 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
The DVD givaway is a 'trial' for which you have to provide a CC/Paypal account, and will roll into a subscription if you don't cancel in time

http://www.miniwargaming.com/freedvds

not something I'm interested in, but if you're on the ball enough to record the content and cancel in time....

(I've no idea how easy it will be to cancel, some 'trials' make it difficult/impossible. I've no evidence that this is the case here, but it is a potential concern)


My solution to that problem would be to get a gift card from your local bank, use that number as the "Credit Card" and when the value of the card expires, BOOM, end of subscription. No need to have a minipanicattack trying to remember the date of expiration for the trial. lol


Miniwargaming online store closes (Canadian Online Retailer) @ 2013/03/26 15:23:54


Post by: Grugknuckle


 Sean_OBrien wrote:
Most retail stores are on tight margins, game stores tend to be even closer to the line between keeping the lights on and closing shop.

For a shop like MWG, they probably made close to 50% of their sales from GW products and probably 90% of those sales through online customers. If you figure that they get 35% of the sales for their revenue...little bit of math, carry the two...the new terms just cut 15% off the top of their business. Since I doubt they have a few hundred people they can lay off or a warehouse or two that they can downsize, then it causes most stores to close down.

I doubt they will be the last either, as a number of other stores will be put in the same position as a result of one clause or another in the new terms.


And this is precisely the kind of behavior that is killing GW's business. I don't know about you, but it's really difficult for me to play a fun game of Warhammer or WH40K at one of GW's brick and mortar stores. I've ALWAYS preferred to play at the local - privately owned and operated - game store. Their tables are better. Their customer service is better. The atmosphere is friendlier and they have more than just GW products. The privately operated FLGS is the engine that drives this hobby and if GW puts them all out of business, no one is going to purchase GW mini's anymore.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
xraytango wrote:
I would say boycott GW, but getting everyone on board with that is the very definition of the word "futile"


I'm not so sure.

GW already has a monopoly on the intellectual property - (We can talk about CHS in another thread) - this latest move is just another attempt to create a monopoly on the distribution of their products. We could easily boycott GW distribution and in fact I have been participating in a de-facto boycott of GW's distribution for almost 10 years.

It's simple - don't buy your stuff from the GW website or a GW brick and mortar store. Buy your models and books from ebay or a FLGS or some online equivalent. As GW imposes more draconian restrictions on their distributers, they'll see their sales shrink. In fact I think they already have. The only way that GW will ever get the share of online distribution they want is to put independent distributors of GW products out of the online business. It's very clear that this is their intention, but that can't happen if you buy your stuff from independent retailers. GW knows that it can't just up and stop selling it's product to those independent retailers because if they did, then no one would even play their games. So we, the consumers, have GW by the short and curlies on this.

Let GW keep it's control of the IP becasue we all love the game and the warhammer universe. That's what they're good at. But don't give them a monopoly on distributing the product.


Miniwargaming online store closes (Canadian Online Retailer) @ 2013/03/26 20:51:41


Post by: Ravenous D


 Grugknuckle wrote:
 Sean_OBrien wrote:
Most retail stores are on tight margins, game stores tend to be even closer to the line between keeping the lights on and closing shop.

For a shop like MWG, they probably made close to 50% of their sales from GW products and probably 90% of those sales through online customers. If you figure that they get 35% of the sales for their revenue...little bit of math, carry the two...the new terms just cut 15% off the top of their business. Since I doubt they have a few hundred people they can lay off or a warehouse or two that they can downsize, then it causes most stores to close down.

I doubt they will be the last either, as a number of other stores will be put in the same position as a result of one clause or another in the new terms.


And this is precisely the kind of behavior that is killing GW's business. I don't know about you, but it's really difficult for me to play a fun game of Warhammer or WH40K at one of GW's brick and mortar stores. I've ALWAYS preferred to play at the local - privately owned and operated - game store. Their tables are better. Their customer service is better. The atmosphere is friendlier and they have more than just GW products. The privately operated FLGS is the engine that drives this hobby and if GW puts them all out of business, no one is going to purchase GW mini's anymore.


Well soon you wont have to worry, GWs new store format is zero gaming space and they only have room to run demos. Slowly but surely all their stores will look like that, especially if Kirby was truthful when he said he wanted to open 800 new stores in the US this year.


Miniwargaming online store closes (Canadian Online Retailer) @ 2013/03/26 21:55:22


Post by: TheMostSlyFox


It's sad that MWG is closing, as they got me into miniature wargaming in general.

On a side note: when I presented this video at my 'F'LGS, every one in my gaming group got pretty down... everyone except for the proprietor of the store, whom proceeded to say: "It's good that GW is getting rid of all of these online discount retailers, that way more people will pay full retail here"

...he does little for us as a wargaming community...

;_;


Miniwargaming online store closes (Canadian Online Retailer) @ 2013/03/26 22:00:40


Post by: insaniak


 TheMostSlyFox wrote:
It's sad that MWG is closing, as they got me into miniature wargaming in general. ;_;

They can't have done. Don't you listen to GW? Stores that sell online do nothing to grow the hobby, and are in fact solely responsible for its eventual demise. They also probably hate kittens.


Miniwargaming online store closes (Canadian Online Retailer) @ 2013/03/27 08:53:22


Post by: stubacca


It looks as though Dan, the dude with the beard who played orks, has left MWG, looks like it could be to do with the GW rules coming into place. Probably other stuff, but jeez, sad to see him go


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ravenous D wrote:
 Grugknuckle wrote:
 Sean_OBrien wrote:
Most retail stores are on tight margins, game stores tend to be even closer to the line between keeping the lights on and closing shop.

For a shop like MWG, they probably made close to 50% of their sales from GW products and probably 90% of those sales through online customers. If you figure that they get 35% of the sales for their revenue...little bit of math, carry the two...the new terms just cut 15% off the top of their business. Since I doubt they have a few hundred people they can lay off or a warehouse or two that they can downsize, then it causes most stores to close down.

I doubt they will be the last either, as a number of other stores will be put in the same position as a result of one clause or another in the new terms.


And this is precisely the kind of behavior that is killing GW's business. I don't know about you, but it's really difficult for me to play a fun game of Warhammer or WH40K at one of GW's brick and mortar stores. I've ALWAYS preferred to play at the local - privately owned and operated - game store. Their tables are better. Their customer service is better. The atmosphere is friendlier and they have more than just GW products. The privately operated FLGS is the engine that drives this hobby and if GW puts them all out of business, no one is going to purchase GW mini's anymore.


Well soon you wont have to worry, GWs new store format is zero gaming space and they only have room to run demos. Slowly but surely all their stores will look like that, especially if Kirby was truthful when he said he wanted to open 800 new stores in the US this year.


This is what I don't get about Games Workshop - they're prohibiting online sales, I suppose it's a way of directing sales to their webstore. I can understand that bit, but what I don't get is that if MWG are an example of what's happening, and stores are closing down, they're actually losing money! They're losing their trade sales, regardless of whether an indy retailer is offering a 25% discount or not, that's affecting the indy, not GW because of that trade price they've set. Unless they want to build their own stores and get more revenue that way, but I don't get their totalitarian view that indy sellers are bad.

I've never played a game at a GW store, it seems way too nerdy and far too much of a pressure environment to buy stuff, GW staff don't care about you as an individual and what you need, I was offered a Storm Talon for my Blood Angels, and then a Warhammer Fantasy Cannon thing when I asked for cool looking, LOTR models.. My FLGS is ace, I get offered a 10% discount, I've even helped run his store when he's been busy doing other stuff, and the dudes who go down are all in it because it's a fun, relaxed environment. Surely those kind of places are better for the hobby than the Fascist GW regime? aha

If this is solely about maximising profits to GW, without thinking about the long term stability, it's really short sighted. Especially for people who lives in towns where they're nowhere near a GW store. I'm still going to buy GW stuff, not directly from GW, finding a decent indy store is a godsend! I'd rather keep one of my friends businesses open.


Miniwargaming online store closes (Canadian Online Retailer) @ 2013/03/27 16:38:23


Post by: Grugknuckle


I've never bought anything from a GW brick and mortar store and I haven't bought anything from their online store (or forgeworlds either) since probably 2004-5. It wasn't a conscious decision not to, I just always had a local store or better deals on ebay. But now I really will consciously avoid GW's stores. I love their products, but I'm not going to reward them for putting my friends out of business.