**You can choose multiple poll answers**

So, we all know that GW has once again changed their trade terms in the US to further restrict the market.

IMHO (and many others) GW is driving toward total control of their own products.

Well, for me: there is no official GW store within 3 hours drive by interstate. Paying full retail for their models is out of the question (their website).

So the they offer me two options. One is impractical and the other is my choice but driven by economics.

I love 40k as an IP. I love the lore. I will continue to purchase books (not the blatant money-grabby limited/special/one-time-only/SUNDAY!SUNDAY!SUNDAY! books).

I have enough 40k stock to last me a long time. I am going to have 3 SM armies (1x 3k+pts, 2x 1500+pts) and still have 2k+ of boxed up Tau I could keep. With only buying codexs and rules I could probably keep playing SM's for a very long long time without actually needing to buy new models. I am not a competitive tournament player.

So, if my local stores are shutdown from selling GW, I still have ebay when needed. And if I wait a bit I can buy used rule books on Amazon or ebay. So I really do not need GW to continue to play 40k. And with the way the 3rd party guys are going, There will be reasonably priced alternative models for nearly everything I would need anyways. Even newly released SM vehicles are seeing proxies withing a couple months. I can also start a 30K army with only needing the rules books from FW.

So, I plan on happily staying with 40k without giving GW any of my money directly (or even indirectly in some cases).

Anyone else out there like me?

Could you direct me to where the new GW trade terms are revealed/being discussed? I was unaware that anything had changed beyond the stupid DftS direct only thing...

Continue to pay, buying locally as long as my local place can still give the 25% discount. If I can't get from him, eBay. If eBay fails, convert. If I can't convert...I don't get the model. I won't buy direct from GW, as it's a total waste.

 Lint wrote:
Could you direct me to where the new GW trade terms are revealed/being discussed? I was unaware that anything had changed beyond the stupid DftS direct only thing...

Well you got me on 'DftS' I don't know what that is. But they have forbid trade account holders from selling 'bits'. It's in News and Rumors.

"Death from the Skies" or "from Above" or whatever.



**edit, I'll just make my way to the other thread!

I buy mostly from eBay or online sellers and will continue to do so.

 Lint wrote:
"Death from the Skies" or "from Above" or whatever.



**edit, I'll just make my way to the other thread!

Ah yes. I do know of that, and that is a very nasty thing they have done as well. And put the LGS between a rock and a hard place.

I gave up playing 40k a while back - not from any sense of outrage, but just out of apathy and the discovery that there are much better gaming experiences to be had elsewhere.

I still buy GW. Sometimes just for a painting project. Sometimes for minis top use with other games. And I still enjoy 40k lore and fiction. I really enjoy the Fantasy Flight RPGs, Space Hulk, Death Angel and other non-core Games.

But I can't really be fussed with the 40k game anymore.

R.

Edited by AgeOfEgos

As an Australian that has been slammed with ridiculous prices by GW for years now; I too only buy 40k 2nd hand from ebay.

If I want to add a little extra I purchase parts from any of the awesome third party retailers such as anvil, kromlech or puppetswar.

I also only really model & paint and would only play with close friends so I am happy to use the old 3rd ed rules.

GW lost my business years ago and has little chance of getting it back.

Well, I don't even play the tabletop game any more, but I read Black Library novels and play the FFG RPGs when I have the chance.

 Ravenous D wrote:
Yup, but since they wanted to fight dirty then I will fight dirtier, I plan on buying the books and copying the gaming info to an excel file and then return the book. If the money is pitched in by my gaming group for the book then it isnt pirating and GW can go themselves.

Model wise Im going to start casting stuff for personal use a lot more and teach everyone I know how to cast models.

How does any of this help support your FLGS and keep the lights on in the stores you game in?

And buying a book, copying it and then returning it is pirating.

Not sure what trying to compromise people to break the law does to 'show' GW or help people in any way. Just seems like immature internet posturing to be a cool guy or a temper tantrum.

If you really have a problem, then stop shooting up GW like you are a heroin addict and simply 'go without' or move on to something you don't have such a huge problem with the vendor.

I'll simply keep buying from my FLGS. While it's technically supporting GW, it's also supporting them, who are quite fantastic. While they can't put the usual 25% discount seen online, they do discount where they can.

nkelsch wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:
Yup, but since they wanted to fight dirty then I will fight dirtier, I plan on buying the books and copying the gaming info to an excel file and then return the book. If the money is pitched in by my gaming group for the book then it isnt pirating and GW can go themselves.

Model wise Im going to start casting stuff for personal use a lot more and teach everyone I know how to cast models.

How does any of this help support your FLGS and keep the lights on in the stores you game in?

And buying a book, copying it and then returning it is pirating.

Not sure what trying to compromise people to break the law does to 'show' GW or help people in any way. Just seems like immature internet posturing to be a cool guy or a temper tantrum.

If you really have a problem, then stop shooting up GW like you are a heroin addict and simply 'go without' or move on to something you don't have such a huge problem with the vendor.

Sup kettle, Im black also.

I didnt say stop supporting FLGSs, they have plenty of other game systems and items that you can buy, Im saying go to GW stores and do so.

nkelsch wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:
Yup, but since they wanted to fight dirty then I will fight dirtier, I plan on buying the books and copying the gaming info to an excel file and then return the book. If the money is pitched in by my gaming group for the book then it isnt pirating and GW can go themselves.

Model wise Im going to start casting stuff for personal use a lot more and teach everyone I know how to cast models.

How does any of this help support your FLGS and keep the lights on in the stores you game in?

And buying a book, copying it and then returning it is pirating.

Not sure what trying to compromise people to break the law does to 'show' GW or help people in any way. Just seems like immature internet posturing to be a cool guy or a temper tantrum.

If you really have a problem, then stop shooting up GW like you are a heroin addict and simply 'go without' or move on to something you don't have such a huge problem with the vendor.

If it worked for the government and prohibition, then privately owned company should be a walk in the park.

Here (not that we matter as a market thats for sure, but you can take it as a precedent), GW after the embargo and the outrageous pricing essentially lost its place to competing products. Betwin Piracy, Chineese recasters, ebay used armies, Privateer Press and other companies, they essentially shut them selves out of the market. Dont get me wrong, 40k is certainly still played, just not bought.

I started buying 2nd hand stuff for 40k back in 4th edition when the retail prices became something hard to justify to myself - with retail purchases being restricted to specific new purchases (in the last 3 years, GW made maybe $100 out of me). I no longer buy GW stuff new at all.

I stopped playing 40k before 6th ed dropped, though. Those miniatures I still have will be repurposed for Tomorrow's War (with the new book detailing powered armour special forces and aliens, I'm set). Excess models will be disposed of. Into the smelting pot if necessary. I started playing it in the RT years - but I've never been an exclusive gamer. 40k was usually my "other" game, now it's time for something else after 25 odd years.

Other players in my club have elected to return to an earlier edition after our club 40k tournament in a couple of months (after this event, we'll no longer be running an annual 40k tournament, so sticking to the "current" rules will be irrelevant).

Been playing 40k for almost 20 years. Not enough reason to stop now.

My answer?

Used Models and Substitution.

There are a lot of good companies out there that I do not mind getting my gaming dollar:

Max Mini, Scibor, Reaper, Mantic, Avatars of War, Raging Heroes, Kromlech, etc. etc. etc....

So, I don't buy from GW, since I do not want them to get their hands on my gaming dollars.

Add to this the fact that I do not like the current editions of either WHFB or WH40K and you can see where my money goes.

I play Kings of War and 3rd edition WH40K, and ignore the latest editions as best I can (which is pretty well - my group is mostly playing Kings of War these days).

The Auld Grump

Is there a vote option for "trying to rip people away from GW's teat?"

I have so much of thier gak, I don't even need anything else.

Only thing keeping me from up and dropping it off on feebey is that I had such agood time with the older stuff that I've been having a change of heart with some of this stuff.

Space Hulk
Necromunda
Rogue Trader
2d edition
some of those cultists, if i can keep from geting raped over them
Mordhiem.

Other then that, I'm having difficulty unloading extra gak. So for the short term, I'm caught in a flypaper trap.

There also is no option for publically disrupting games day this year.

(╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻

I'll keep and paint what I have and play this edition of the rules, buying this set to play in the local group made me break my 18 month boycott, until the next edition comes out. Hopefully GW will have hamstrung themselves so badly that no one will want to or be able to buy in to the next edition. The books will be far too expensive or these business gambles won't pay off and they will be less accessable to everyone.

Really they want to treat their products as being on the same level as other, more practical luxury goods? If that is so then they should expect to have the same limited customer base.

They should be making it easier to find and buy their products, but they keep withdrawing, when they should expand!

If they really want to make more money they need to get rid of their company stores, all that overhead is killing them. Let FLGS assume that risk while paying wages and keeping the lights on and the taxes paid.

Too bad kirby said he wants to open up 800 new one man demo stores.

No collecting option? I haven't much chance to play 40k in Japan, so for me it is mostly modeling and painting, i will try to get stuff through other paths, or use a 3rd party supplier, i am still in love with the whole background, but no love for GW

Hopefully the cost of implementing that will be their downfall.

Montgomery had Market Garden, Kirby has his massive roll-out.

Here is an example of how bad an idea that really is: I live in Kentucky, we have two GW outlets in the two major cities (one each), in each of those cities there are at least three other local stores. One of those cities has a wide urban area that extends to the next counties north, south, and east.. Those who play always go into the city as there are no game stores in their communities. There are two secondary cities with large populations which could be served by a GW outlet, but IMHO the interest wouldn't be there as it seems as though hardly anyone has heard of it, and if they have, are already not interested because of the prices ("seriously for plastic, that you have to assemble' and paint?). One town does have a small gqming community but only a few are GW collectors/ players but GW doesn't want them as customers as they all own multiple armies each.

So in Kentucky he has a potential if opening a total of four stores, maybe five. Where would you put more stores in a state? There is no way you could open another even 100 stores in the States without it affecting the bottom line. And he wants 700? I could see three more in New York state, i.e. Buffalo, Binghamton, Long Island; but that is my example, there are so few places with the population density to support a GW store that there are not even 700 viable locations in the whole entire US without stacking them on top or each other like they did in Chicago.

 Ravenous D wrote:
Too bad kirby said he wants to open up 800 new one man demo stores.

I cannot imagine how much damage is done to the wargaming hobby by people walking into GW stores and seeing the costs.

 SickSix wrote:

So, we all know that GW has once again changed their trade terms in the US to further restrict the market.

I didn't know this. In what way?

In any event, I don't generally play a game if I'm not going to support the parent company. Playing the game is inherently a support of the company, since it by defenition perpetuates the game and fosters continued awareness of it. If I am disappointed with a game to the point that I won't support them financially anymore, then I'm going to stop playing entirely.

That being said, I will make an exception for a company which has been acquired by another company. If I grow to love a game published by a company which is later purchased by, oh, say, Wizards of the Coast, to choose an example at random, I will continue to play that game despite the change in leadership. (Although I will not necessarily financially support the new owner, depending on the situation.)

That's just my opinion, of course. If what I read on the forums is an accurate bellweather, then I would guess I'm in the minority on this particular issue.

I do not play anymore, and have not for some time. But for the he last 2 years or so I played I spent maybe $200 a year on new models, everything else I either won, or bought used/bartered for.

Really, look at sunken cost theory and just abandoning ship is probably your best bet.

 SickSix wrote:
**You can choose multiple poll answers**

So, we all know that GW has once again changed their trade terms in the US to further restrict the market.

IMHO (and many others) GW is driving toward total control of their own products.

Well, for me: there is no official GW store within 3 hours drive by interstate. Paying full retail for their models is out of the question (their website).

So the they offer me two options. One is impractical and the other is my choice but driven by economics.

I love 40k as an IP. I love the lore. I will continue to purchase books (not the blatant money-grabby limited/special/one-time-only/SUNDAY!SUNDAY!SUNDAY! books).

I have enough 40k stock to last me a long time. I am going to have 3 SM armies (1x 3k+pts, 2x 1500+pts) and still have 2k+ of boxed up Tau I could keep. With only buying codexs and rules I could probably keep playing SM's for a very long long time without actually needing to buy new models. I am not a competitive tournament player.

So, if my local stores are shutdown from selling GW, I still have ebay when needed. And if I wait a bit I can buy used rule books on Amazon or ebay. So I really do not need GW to continue to play 40k. And with the way the 3rd party guys are going, There will be reasonably priced alternative models for nearly everything I would need anyways. Even newly released SM vehicles are seeing proxies withing a couple months. I can also start a 30K army with only needing the rules books from FW.

So, I plan on happily staying with 40k without giving GW any of my money directly (or even indirectly in some cases).

Anyone else out there like me?

You want to not give any money to GW? Then don't buy books. Oh, you can still get them, but sans the loss of your money.

And I am like you, though I live in an area where both my local GW and FLGS are ten minutes away, and the GW is in the same mall I work at, so I could easily walk upstairs and buy stuff whenever I am working. I like the lore, I like the game, but I don't like the prices or the fact that GW seems so intent on disregarding the internet as an important business tool. Their brand could be twice as big, if not bigger, but because of their overly restrictive policies and their horrid understanding of what the internet actually is, they have set themselves up to fail. Even the 20% off prices from Dicebucket are too much for me. However, I have plenty of SM stuff, plenty of Chaos, plenty of DE, plenty Necron stuff, etc, to even assemble. I am not buying any more actual models, instead using paper cutouts shaped like certain things on bases.

Time to Paperhammer.

 Jimsolo wrote:

 SickSix wrote:

So, we all know that GW has once again changed their trade terms in the US to further restrict the market.

I didn't know this. In what way?

In any event, I don't generally play a game if I'm not going to support the parent company. Playing the game is inherently a support of the company, since it by defenition perpetuates the game and fosters continued awareness of it. If I am disappointed with a game to the point that I won't support them financially anymore, then I'm going to stop playing entirely.

That being said, I will make an exception for a company which has been acquired by another company. If I grow to love a game published by a company which is later purchased by, oh, say, Wizards of the Coast, to choose an example at random, I will continue to play that game despite the change in leadership. (Although I will not necessarily financially support the new owner, depending on the situation.)

That's just my opinion, of course. If what I read on the forums is an accurate bellweather, then I would guess I'm in the minority on this particular issue.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/514316.page

Summary is listed a couple of times - as are links to the documents with the new terms.

I would have to disagree with the conclusion that continuing to play a game supports a company. When I get together with some of my old guy friends - we play AD&D. Not D&D, not 3 or 3.5 or whatever they have it numbered at now. It doesn't support WotC (I don't really have a problem with them - just the old rules never were problematic...so I never saw a reason to fix it). In the same way, some of the old guys like to play an occasional 3rd Edition 40K game - it does nothing for GW. Old rules, old models.

It might be accurate if you were only to take into account playing in stores, but if a person were to look at an old Codex and take a casual interest in the game then go look at the new Codex (and the new Codex prices) - it would likely push them away from the new products and towards the old through used book stores or eBay (after all - if people are still playing with the old rules...they must still work).

I've never been too terribly inspired by 40K's background as it tends to be fairly derivative. A lot of the same tropes which they use though get used in our games though, so it is pretty easy to confuse the issue if you were just to casually observe things.

For those who are so motivated, there is a significant difference between GW proper and their various licensees and subsidiaries. Black Library and Forge World both at least behave like they are working to please their customers. FFG has done more for defining and fleshing out GW fluff in their RPG series of books than GW had done in the past 20 years...plus most the guys from FFG I have met are pretty descent people. GW's core business is rotten though. I think I could probably stomach buying a Black Library book or something from Forge World - even though a portion of that sale would be going back to GW HQ.

Sean, as usual, is correct.

Playing 40k makes GW no money at all. It could be the world's most popular miniatures wargame (er....) yet the company could still go under if everyone plays with proxies or second hand miniatures.

However, the miniatures are the reason the game is popular. And the active online community, whilst growing, is still a surprisingly small proportion of those engaging with the game and with GW. That's why these silly embargos never have any effect.

R.

I would argue that the game is popular, because the game is popular...not because of the miniatures themselves (though they are a factor for some people).

However, if you read a lot of these sorts of discussions, you tend to see more comments regarding people having ready opponents rather than more people liking the aesthetics or any other aspect of GW games.

This is more important for new players as opposed to those with established game groups and familiarity with game concepts (like proxying models or adjusting scales for rules).

There is sort of a critcal mass that will happen within each community of gamers, and when that is reached (or dropped below) a game will take off or die for new players and those with weak game group connections.

Again though, I dont see old versions of rules impacting the critical mass for new product sales. I have seen it ressurect long OOP games though, when a core group plays classic rules and it gets some new blood interested in those rules.

Bit of a tangent though I guess.

I like 40k and I want to play it, but it feels like GW doesn't really want me to. Warmachine, Malifaux etc. look alright, but I just don't seem to find them as fun.

But there are ways to play it without GW thankfully.

This is kinda discouraging to hear about GW like this when I am just getting into the game, but I wanna support my LGS cause the owner is prob gonna let me borrow his eldar army (instore only)so I can get used to the game w/o having to proxy. That and he know that the more interested I am in the game, the longer his lights stay on. Mebbe GW should take a tip from this guy...Have premade armies ready for people to borrow and get used to armies and how they function can only mean satisfaction and higher revenue for them...so long as a worker is present at all games that have borrowed merchandise in them XD.

GTKA666 wrote:
This is kinda discouraging to hear about GW like this when I am just getting into the game, but I wanna support my LGS cause the owner is prob gonna let me borrow his eldar army (instore only)so I can get used to the game w/o having to proxy. That and he know that the more interested I am in the game, the longer his lights stay on. Mebbe GW should take a tip from this guy...Have premade armies ready for people to borrow and get used to armies and how they function can only mean satisfaction and higher revenue for them...so long as a worker is present at all games that have borrowed merchandise in them XD.

They used to do that. The reason they changed it: "If they can use the store armies, why would they bother to get their own?" Tada! And now they don't.

And I'm sure your FLGS has more than just Warhammer to collect, paint and play.

im finished eith 40k been playing the new Arkham city miniatures game its pretty awesome

< Taken by the void dragon. >

I don't play games that much anymore, more due to time than anything else, and I certainly buy less than I used to, much less in fact, but honestly I don't get the...well, rage that some people seem to have adopted.

GW aren't an abusive former spouse guys, they're a company that make a product, and if you disagree with the direction they take that product or their business practices, you're perfectly within your rights to stop giving them your money, and even feel justifiably disappointed that something you enjoyed is being mismanaged. But the way some people seem to take spiteful joy in their every misstep and wish they would collapse as a company is beyond the pale IMO, if for no other reason than you're essentially hoping that lots of people with no control over the direction of the company are going to lose their livelihoods.

 precinctomega wrote:
I gave up playing 40k a while back - not from any sense of outrage, but just out of apathy and the discovery that there are much better gaming experiences to be had elsewhere.

I still buy GW. Sometimes just for a painting project. Sometimes for minis top use with other games. And I still enjoy 40k lore and fiction. I really enjoy the Fantasy Flight RPGs, Space Hulk, Death Angel and other non-core Games.

But I can't really be fussed with the 40k game anymore.

R.

Pretty much the same. There are many better games than Warh40K - one of them is Infinity. I still read books and paint models for fun, but I see no reason to play the game anymore.

I gave up 40k somewhere in the middle of 5th. I still play fantasy but even that is simply because I have the models for it. I've started watching what I buy and doing everything I can to spend money everywhere but GW. I still pick up the occasional thing from them but they are down to ~10% of my hobby budget from about 90% this time last year.

*waits for the cavalcade of posters to come in and tell us that even thinking about 40K is still supporting GW*

Whilst I will still continue to buy the Heresy books, and slowly add to my 'Nids, I certainly feel the heart is going from GW. I'm lucky enough to have GW store within 5 minutes walk, and have spent thousands there over the years, even continuing to do so when cheaper online stores arrived, to support the shop. But the last few managers, all great guys, have come and gone, realising after a year that the living wage they could be receiving is going in part to dividends and (comparatively) vast board salaries.

In my personal experience, this is just what happens when many different types of company become large enough to support an upper management layer which does nothing other than shove the money around. All the value added stuff goes (as in this example, with their forums, and atricles, content in WD, Apoc pdfs etc, the website now is just a shop, it used to be a lot more), frontline staff struggle on but many that care more about the product and service than how big their car is, lose heart and move on .

The company also stops listening to feedback or criticism, because the money outweighs any opinion. The last manager at my local store said precisely that, the regional guy is clearly running scared of the next level up, who want costs down and sales up and are absolutely 100% unconcerned about anything else whatsoever.

Sad. but probably inevitable.

I've noticed that the most militant haters all seem to already own insanely vast amounts of models anyway, as the great love seems to lead to the greatest hate, so surely they actually can give up lining GWs pockets and still play anyway?

They just need to practice self discipline and not buy any shinies when GW makes new releases.

For myself, I've bought feth all for a while.. went halves on DV a while back, and that's it. I vowed when I got started back into the hobby Id only play SM and not go nuts, and I find it easy to stick to, considering I still haven't got anywhere near painting them all yet anyway.

I think if you put in a modicum of effort, you can easily cut your spending down to under £50 a year and still happily play 40k as long as you aren't brand new to the hobby.

Anyway, that's what i've done. I reckon I've done less than a £100 in the last 2 or 3 years, and I don't struggle to get a game in, I think the average game size is 1500pts, and the average player already owns about 4-5000 pts worth anyway!

 Yodhrin wrote:
But the way some people seem to take spiteful joy in their every misstep and wish they would collapse as a company is beyond the pale IMO, if for no other reason than you're essentially hoping that lots of people with no control over the direction of the company are going to lose their livelihoods.

GW's collapse is inevitable at this point. Whether they'll survive it or not is anyone's guess. I think at this point the moral thing to do is jump ship to other games, and encourage others to do the same. GW's going to fall, and if its consumers haven't switched over to supporting better companies in sufficient numbers it could take a big part of the industry with it. (FLGS relying on GW products for a large portion of their income, GW collapses under its own weight, the FLGSs go under, the manufacturers supported by the rest of the stores' sales lose a good chunk of income and experience dimished growth, then they collapse too.)


The really baffling thing about GW's behavior is that when they were a monopolistic presence in the industry they acted in a more normal, rational business model way, but as their competitors grow ever larger they start acting more and more like they're the only game in town, and are visibly suffering for it. Last year their profits rose 6%, following a ~10% price hike, the release of a new edition that radically shifted the paradigms of the game around, including putting a heavy emphasis on their most disproportionately expensive kits yet, ever decreasing production costs, and all around expense cutting. In this same year, wargaming as an industry increased by 20%. GW is losing sales and rapidly losing marketshare.

If I didn't think they were just bumbling suits trying to play 80's stereotypes instead of doing their jobs, I'd almost suspect they were trying to destroy the LGSs in an attempt to starve their competition while making the assumption that they could weather the crash and emerge a true monopoly.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
I would argue that the game is popular, because the game is popular...not because of the miniatures themselves (though they are a factor for some people).

However, if you read a lot of these sorts of discussions, you tend to see more comments regarding people having ready opponents rather than more people liking the aesthetics or any other aspect of GW games.

That's the reason I still have a 40K army; because almost everyone I've spoken to gaming about does, and I can use them anywhere*. If it didn't annihilate my potential to get a game I'd sell the lot off and invest in some other games. Once something else hits critical mass I'll be dumping the lot on ebay.

*There's no real permanent gaming venues here (though there's one opening), so most of my gaming is on the kitchen table or when I'm down by Warhammer World, which is obviously GW only (but that's fair enough).

 Yodhrin wrote:
I don't play games that much anymore, more due to time than anything else, and I certainly buy less than I used to, much less in fact, but honestly I don't get the...well, rage that some people seem to have adopted.

GW aren't an abusive former spouse guys, they're a company that make a product, and if you disagree with the direction they take that product or their business practices, you're perfectly within your rights to stop giving them your money, and even feel justifiably disappointed that something you enjoyed is being mismanaged. But the way some people seem to take spiteful joy in their every misstep and wish they would collapse as a company is beyond the pale IMO, if for no other reason than you're essentially hoping that lots of people with no control over the direction of the company are going to lose their livelihoods.

The rage is largely attributed to the amount of Love, time and money we have all put into this hobby only to be mistreated by GW.

And as far as Livelihoods goes, that didnt stop GW from nuking stores that supported the community.

Meh,
Lots of folks who have drifted from GW or grown tired of the price raises like to declare hard and fast rules about what they will or won't do. I don't see much value in making blanket statements about "Loyalty" to a game or company.

Folks can say that they aren't supporting GW by buying used, but it isn't really true. Folks buying used are often freeing up a GW buyer to buy more GW, and the strong market for used GW is part of the cache of of GW products. That is to say, GW products are are so well regarded that they have a strong resale value. Those buying from retailers at a discount are likewise still supporting GW.

For me, interest in other games and the high price of GW'ing means I play 40k occasionally, but rarely purchase anything new anymore. Still, I did buy the new rulebook, and when my armies are updated I'll probably the new codicies. Maybe even a unit or two and probably a BL novel from time to time. I pick up used figs from time to time.

I like 40k and it's universe, but I'm ok with it being a back burner and don't feel the need to define my relation ship with GW or it's game.

 Che-Vito wrote:

I'm glad that I don't support their products, and have taken ~$500 away from them by gifting numerous models to the previously mentioned friends.

That is like a Drug dealer saying he is fighting the war on Drugs by giving out free crack. Those previously mentioned friends are now into a game they wouldn't have been without your handout... and if you think they won't purchase future models as continue to play, you are crazy. Giving something away for free to get someone hooked is common for drug dealers. You just got 2 more people hooked to GW games and in turn, their products. Those two players may never have bought a dime without your help so you didn't cost GW anything, but with your help, you have pretty much guaranteed future sales to GW because of it.

Unless you play in a vacuum where no one can ever see you play and your friends never buy a single GW model ever, you have grown GW's business even while trying to stick it to them.

Actually, I'm actively reducing the amount of GW I own right now. Sold off my Tau, Dark Angels, and soon the IG I have as well.

Mostly it is time, I just don't have it anymore for painting or just about anything. Now I purchase as a hobbyist interested in SF models. It was really hard to let go until the price point just makes me have to think if I want to spend that much on something I really haven't got much time for.

I think the first straw for me was the crap treatment DA got in their previous book. Having to completely re-do an army I put a lot of time into and losing because the meta changed drove me away from playing and now I'm gone and on to skirmish games I have time for.

I still love 40k background because it is a place that literally anything can happen... and one day I'll purchase that Stormraven to convert into a more truescale beast, but I'm done with GW overall.

GW for life. None of thier new policies really effect me at all, so I'll continue to do as I have been doing.

Samurai_Eduh wrote:
GW for life. None of their new policies really effect me at all, so I'll continue to do as I have been doing.

Can you explain this more? What have you been doing that you'll be continuing to do? Are you not affected by the annual price increases? Do you buy full kits for bits? You leave us with a pretty vague statement here man.

Yeah, sorry for the vagueness, boss was snooping around. Anyway, I mean that I will continue to buy at my same rate as before.

I usually don't buy bits, as I find that the kits usually have all the parts I need. If I really need a particular bit, I'll just buy the kit, as I'm sure I will use the rest of it for something, but this doesn't happen often.

Annual price increases? Haven't been so much that it turns me away from buying. If I want it, I'll get it. plus, show me a company that doesn't increase the price of thier products. Does GW do it more than most? Yeah, ok, they do, but they do what they have to do to please shareholders like me. That's business.

Samurai_Eduh wrote:
but they do what they have to do to please shareholders like me. That's business.

That's the rub! Makes a lot more sense now...

I'm aware that companies raise prices, but few do so with such regularity that you could set your watches to them. I've only been into wargaming for like 2 and a half years, in that time a land raider has gone up 25 dollars, the cost of a codex has gone from 29 to 33 to 45ish to 60 dollars. Battleforces have jumped in price 20 to 30 dollars in some cases as well. Even small vehicles like drop pods, rhinos, etc... have gone up (albeit not as much) but it's still a price increase

In that time I've not noticed price increases with the other two games I play, Warmachine and Malifaux.

I stopped buying GW a while ago, mainly a mixture of the prices and that I liked none of the IG models so I went to alternative source to get models that I liked.

Been interested in Warhammer Fantasy but GW's actions these past few years has increasingly been putting me off from playing that game, plenty since I don't mind some of the models.

Warmachine is my core game these days, like Privateer Press better than I do GW.

That said, still play the Rogue Trader RPG and scraped together an army to take part on a 6th Ed 40K combat patrol tourney.

I enjoy the game, if I buy a new army its usually a mix of new and used and really does not cost that much.

Until they start charging me to roll dice I'll keep playing.

Samurai_Eduh wrote:
but they do what they have to do to please shareholders like me. That's business.

Other large companies also have shareholders, and mostly they are knowledgeable of their market, most shareholders are interested in long time investments, just not short time profits.

I blame my changing buying habits on DAKKADAKKA! So much interesting new suppliers in the news and rumors thread!

I've not played seriously for a fiarly long while now anyway but the way GW acts is no insentive to come back

but I'm not going to pretend I'll stop buying stuff I'm either interested in codex/book wise, or models I want to paint and/or convert or the new paints (some from a GW store becasue it's convenient and I want it now but most from 3rd parties or ebay)

I'm not certain these changes will make any real difference to GWs hold on the industry...

there were loads of rumblings/complaints when GW expanded into stores in the UK in a big way in the late 80s/early 90s, thus killing a whole load of independants, but actually they came out stronger in the end

while there are other TTG systems, some with decent player bases (and Magic & other CCGs) I'm still not sure many stores/distributors will be able to do much more than moan, and comply (or abandon the business)

Continue to play / buy at FLGS / second-hand...as usual...last thing I bought directly from GW was 1 pot of paint a few months ago.

Samurai_Eduh wrote:
Yeah, sorry for the vagueness, boss was snooping around. Anyway, I mean that I will continue to buy at my same rate as before.

I usually don't buy bits, as I find that the kits usually have all the parts I need. If I really need a particular bit, I'll just buy the kit, as I'm sure I will use the rest of it for something, but this doesn't happen often.

Annual price increases? Haven't been so much that it turns me away from buying. If I want it, I'll get it. plus, show me a company that doesn't increase the price of thier products. Does GW do it more than most? Yeah, ok, they do, but they do what they have to do to please shareholders like me. That's business.

And 51% of the company is owned by the same guy that gave himself a 20% pay increase last year.

 Ravenous D wrote:

Samurai_Eduh wrote:
Yeah, sorry for the vagueness, boss was snooping around. Anyway, I mean that I will continue to buy at my same rate as before.

I usually don't buy bits, as I find that the kits usually have all the parts I need. If I really need a particular bit, I'll just buy the kit, as I'm sure I will use the rest of it for something, but this doesn't happen often.

Annual price increases? Haven't been so much that it turns me away from buying. If I want it, I'll get it. plus, show me a company that doesn't increase the price of thier products. Does GW do it more than most? Yeah, ok, they do, but they do what they have to do to please shareholders like me. That's business.

And 51% of the company is owned by the same guy that gave himself a 20% pay increase last year.

Unethical from a business standpoint? Possibly. My problem? Not really.

 Ravenous D wrote:

Samurai_Eduh wrote:
Yeah, sorry for the vagueness, boss was snooping around. Anyway, I mean that I will continue to buy at my same rate as before.

I usually don't buy bits, as I find that the kits usually have all the parts I need. If I really need a particular bit, I'll just buy the kit, as I'm sure I will use the rest of it for something, but this doesn't happen often.

Annual price increases? Haven't been so much that it turns me away from buying. If I want it, I'll get it. plus, show me a company that doesn't increase the price of thier products. Does GW do it more than most? Yeah, ok, they do, but they do what they have to do to please shareholders like me. That's business.

And 51% of the company is owned by the same guy that gave himself a 20% pay increase last year.

And all indications are that he is simply padding out his retirement funds by aggressively going after short term profits at the expense of long term viability.

Put me in the "buying 2nd hand kits" crowd. There really is no sane reason to go into a GW store and buy something off the shelf anymore.

 Yodhrin wrote:
I don't play games that much anymore, more due to time than anything else, and I certainly buy less than I used to, much less in fact, but honestly I don't get the...well, rage that some people seem to have adopted.

GW aren't an abusive former spouse guys, they're a company that make a product, and if you disagree with the direction they take that product or their business practices, you're perfectly within your rights to stop giving them your money, and even feel justifiably disappointed that something you enjoyed is being mismanaged. But the way some people seem to take spiteful joy in their every misstep and wish they would collapse as a company is beyond the pale IMO, if for no other reason than you're essentially hoping that lots of people with no control over the direction of the company are going to lose their livelihoods.

Actually, abusive former spouse isn't far from the truth given that I'm sure many people here have put more time and large amounts of money in to their little toy soldiers compared to their marriage.

But really, we all know GW is "just a company", but people are right to be mighty pissed off and angry when they have spent so much time and money on GW products. Even the idea "you're perfectly within your rights to stop giving them your money", sure, that's true, but if you're half way through an army you could be throwing away hundreds of dollars and hundreds of hours of time when you decide to quit. It's not the same as seeing a pair of pants you like that are too expensive so deciding not to buy them, it's far more invested than that and as such ends up much more personal and emotional.

Personally I still like GW games. They still provide a product that I want and I am heavily invested, so I'd definitely find joy ("spiteful" isn't the right word) in them getting a kick in the balls from their policies and having to adjust their business model to something more akin to what they were on their great rise to power in the 90s.

Samurai_Eduh wrote:
Yeah, sorry for the vagueness, boss was snooping around. Anyway, I mean that I will continue to buy at my same rate as before.

I usually don't buy bits, as I find that the kits usually have all the parts I need. If I really need a particular bit, I'll just buy the kit, as I'm sure I will use the rest of it for something, but this doesn't happen often.

Annual price increases? Haven't been so much that it turns me away from buying. If I want it, I'll get it. plus, show me a company that doesn't increase the price of thier products. Does GW do it more than most? Yeah, ok, they do, but they do what they have to do to please shareholders like me. That's business.

If you can afford to pay GWs prices, go for it. Support the company you like. You are one of few who can. I for one have school, food, and a girlfriend to pay for, and for the past week I have had all of $6.42 because of that. I only buy discounted GW product because I simply cannot afford the ridiculous prices GW wants me to pay when other companies use plastic that is just as strong with more detail at half of the cost (see any Gundam kit ever. You can throw those things and they won't break). Games Workshop's failing is that they are only thinking short term. How sustainable is their business with their current model? Can they continue another five years? Another ten? If they increase prices every year, then no. Even as a Shareholder, I'm sure that there is a point where you'd say "woah, this is too much." It may be that Stormravens are $200 before that happens, but eventually they will price you out of the hobby unless you're making well into the six figure range.

There are a few things GW needs to do in order to last more than a few more years. Only the most wuss of parents will buy their kid an $85 plastic model when that money could go to the mortgage or utilities or a car payment or a vacation. GW lowering their prices, accepting the fact that the internet isn't only for pirates and actually using it to promote their product rather than restrict it all to one site, and turning their business model into something sustainable for longer than the next three years will do wonders for their customer base.

At this point, I'm either going to purchase from my FLGS to support them or purchase stuff second hand. I see no reason, whatsoever, to directly provide GW with my custom.

I am quite fond of my FLGS and if it wasn't for them, I'd be on a "GW secondhand only" setting.

Where's the choice for "continue as normal"?

This is a pointless and absurdly biased construction. Have you considered politics or political polling?

If you don't like something, stop participating in it. Whining about it doesn't do anything except make you a whiner.

You're missing the point.

We all like 40k, its GW we dont like because they are making access to 40k difficult.

Its like if I worked for the car company that made your car and I kicked you in the balls every time you wanted to use it, you dont buy a new car, you punch me in the throat and carry on driving the car you love.

 McNinja wrote:
Games Workshop's failing is that they are only thinking short term. How sustainable is their business with their current model? Can they continue another five years? Another ten? If they increase prices every year, then no. Even as a Shareholder, I'm sure that there is a point where you'd say "woah, this is too much." It may be that Stormravens are $200 before that happens, but eventually they will price you out of the hobby unless you're making well into the six figure range.

There are a few things GW needs to do in order to last more than a few more years. Only the most wuss of parents will buy their kid an $85 plastic model when that money could go to the mortgage or utilities or a car payment or a vacation. GW lowering their prices, accepting the fact that the internet isn't only for pirates and actually using it to promote their product rather than restrict it all to one site, and turning their business model into something sustainable for longer than the next three years will do wonders for their customer base.

My dad said he sees GW crop up alot in the financial press, its typically bad news and I believe he even stated that the Financial Times considers GW a bad company to invest in.

You're missing the point. They are the same thing.

You don't buy 40k products without paying GW. You don't enjoy 40k without enjoying GW.

You're deceiving yourself when you make a distinction and create your own frustration.

If you don't like GW, drop them completely from your life. It's like anything else that you don't like in life. Wallowing in your own self-created grief is stupid.

The only useful thing that can come out of threads like this is learning who actually plays 40k, and who can safely be put on ignore since they don't actually play the game.

I am all for supporting the LGS. The problem is, they don't really sell a lot of used 40k stuff.

If I buy GW kits off the shelf, GW gets my money, and the LGS gets a slice.

The problem now is getting to be that even buying discounted kits locally, the prices are still a bit ridiculous.

Not to mention, due to local taxes, an advertised 20% discount is really only 12.5%. Not much. That makes a 15% discount from an internet seller who offers free shipping, a better deal. 2.5% isn't much, but if we are talking a 20% online discount with free shipping, that adds up.

The one thing I will continue to buy from my FLGS is Vallejo Paint and some modelling supplies. I will buy codexs from them if I plan to play that army or an update comes out for an army I already have.

But, unless I plan on updating my Tau when the new dex drops, I really have no need at all to buy models from my FLGS anymore. And I hate that because I know they need the business but I'm not going to buy something i don't need just to support them.

 Ravenous D wrote:
You're missing the point.

We all like 40k, its GW we dont like because they are making access to 40k difficult.

Its like if I worked for the car company that made your car and I kicked you in the balls every time you wanted to use it, you dont buy a new car, you punch me in the throat and carry on driving the car you love.

No... I had a volkswagon where the service center changed hands and began treating me poorly and did unethical things in regards to my car repair and tried to make me pay for things under warranty and then making me pay for recalled items.

I got a lawyer, contacted Corporate with all my evidence and sold the car and said I want a refund for the following service appointments and the rest of my warranty and provided documentation of the dealership's behavior. I got a new car and ended up getting a large amount of my money back for gouged service which should have been under warranty or covered by recalls.

I didn't have to resort to compromising myself or illegal behavior like you constantly advocate. If a companies business practices forces *YOU* to resort to breaking the law as you fall over yourself to still consume their product, then the problem is with you. I 'went without' and ended up finding a better brand and dealer who took care of my needs much better.

In your hyperbolic example, Yes... you get a new car instead of escalating to assault and breaking the law as you attempt murder by punching someone in the throat. But anything to be an internet tough guy right?

Also agree... Biased poll is biased. Everyone is selecting the 'YES' options mainly because there is no place to select 'Yes, continue as normal'

I've dropped GW since the price increase last year, but still am enthusiastically into 40k lore/fluff/stories. When I get new models or codex's I buy from independent retailers.

Though honestly I still buy directly from Black Library's e-books. Also earlier this year I bought the Night Lords conversion set directly from their website. I'm a bad bad boy....

 DarknessEternal wrote:
You're missing the point. They are the same thing.

You don't buy 40k products without paying GW. You don't enjoy 40k without enjoying GW.

You're deceiving yourself when you make a distinction and create your own frustration.

I disagree.

Its entirely possible to play 40K without giving GW a single penny or cent.

Models can be sourced second hand and the books the same or maybe borrowed from friends.

nkelsch wrote:


I didn't have to resort to compromising myself or illegal behavior like you constantly advocate. If a companies business practices forces *YOU* to resort to breaking the law as you fall over yourself to still consume their product, then the problem is with you. I 'went without' and ended up finding a better brand and dealer who took care of my needs much better.

In your hyperbolic example, Yes... you get a new car instead of escalating to assault and breaking the law as you attempt murder by punching someone in the throat. But anything to be an internet tough guy right?

So you didnt like your VW? I bet it was a Jetta, you seem like the Jetta type, but thats besides the point.

Its better to fight for what you love then just getting walked all over.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 stormwell wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
You're missing the point. They are the same thing.

You don't buy 40k products without paying GW. You don't enjoy 40k without enjoying GW.

You're deceiving yourself when you make a distinction and create your own frustration.

I disagree.

Its entirely possible to play 40K without giving GW a single penny or cent.

Models can be sourced second hand and the books the same or maybe borrowed from friends.

Or even hand made. Or re casted for personal use.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
You're missing the point. They are the same thing.

You don't buy 40k products without paying GW. You don't enjoy 40k without enjoying GW.

You're deceiving yourself when you make a distinction and create your own frustration.

This doesn't happen often, but I agree with Darkness Eternal on this. I might not like everything about GW the company, but when I enjoy 40k, I a enjoying GW. There may be varying degrees of how one feels about GW the company vs it's games, but to completely separate the two is not really possible.

If you "Stay Loyal to 40k" you have not "Divorced GW".
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 stormwell wrote:

Its entirely possible to play 40K without giving GW a single penny or cent.
Models can be sourced second hand and the books the same or maybe borrowed from friends.

Things bought second hand still had to be made by GW. As was said earlier buying 2nd hand you're reinforcing the perceived value of GW products.

Also, support isn't just direct cash paid. If you are playing GW's games, you are supporting them through free advertising. Every person who plays a GW game that is seen by another person is advertising GW. Maybe they don't get as much $ directly from you, but you're supporting them.

It's like a homemade t-shirt for a political party. You didn't pay the party for it for it, but they're still getting advertising from you and that is VERY valuable.

 Ravenous D wrote:


Its better to fight for what you love then just getting walked all over.

Tell me how that works out for you in court when you try to defend committing a felony assault as 'fighting for what you love instead of being walked over'.

I am sure that will also be a great iron-clad defense in piracy/copyright infringement cases too.

Are there any laws you don't advocate breaking as a solution to your problems?

I honestly think I am done with" THE HOBBY". I will play the video games and read some of the books, but that's about it.

I have a 2000 point CSM army that I made last year and will be selling it. I really love to paint and had a good time with it, but the cost and business practices are out of hand. I might buy kits to paint from now on but they will not be GW products.

I am not crying or bitching just stated my plans for the future. The only way I can voice this opinion to GW is with my cash. I just don't get them. I don't understand why they would rather make enemies then friends.

Kind of makes me sad to think that Dakka Dakka, a site that I come to daily wont be on my bookmark bar any longer.I have been coming here for about 3 years nonstop and lurked for a year before that. As I am a DCM member it wont effect DD at all but still kind of blows.

To show that I am serious any mod that reads this feel free to delete my account as this will be my last post. Sucks.

If GW somehow comes to their senses I will be back.....
Good night, and good luck.

Deaths

Eilif wrote:

 stormwell wrote:

Its entirely possible to play 40K without giving GW a single penny or cent.
Models can be sourced second hand and the books the same or maybe borrowed from friends.

Things bought second hand still had to be made by GW, and if you are playing GW's games, you are supporting them through free advertising. Every person who plays a GW game that is seen by another person is advertising GW. Maybe they don't get as much $ from you, but you're supporting them.

It's like a homemade t-shirt for a political party. You didn't pay the party for it for it, but they're still getting advertising from you.

Sorry mate, but I have to disagree.

You can easily say to somebody if they ask about the models either. "Get 'em off ebay." or "No they're non-GW models, you can get them from such-and-such a place."

I can see what you mean, but at the same time you can turn that 'free advertising' against GW in favour of a third party company.

 stormwell wrote:

Sorry mate, but I have to disagree.

You can easily say to somebody if they ask about the models either. "Get 'em off ebay." or "No they're non-GW models, you can get them from such-and-such a place."

I can see what you mean, but at the same time you can turn that 'free advertising' against GW in favour of a third party company.

Good Point. However...

Even if you play with proxies, you still have to buy the rules and codicies somewhere. Whether you buy them from ebay, bartertown, or the GW store, you're still buying and using a product produced by GW. Unless you resort to illegal means, you've still got to posess GW products to play the game.

Further, if any of your friends starts playing and buys GW product, then congratulations you just helped out GW!

DarknessEternal wrote:You're missing the point. They are the same thing.

You don't buy 40k products without paying GW. You don't enjoy 40k without enjoying GW.

You're deceiving yourself when you make a distinction and create your own frustration.

If you don't like GW, drop them completely from your life. It's like anything else that you don't like in life. Wallowing in your own self-created grief is stupid.

The only useful thing that can come out of threads like this is learning who actually plays 40k, and who can safely be put on ignore since they don't actually play the game.

I'm not enjoying Games Workshop. I enjoy 40k. Just because a company creates a game does not mean I have to like the company in its current form. I can play Warhammer 40k for the next ten years without paying a single dime for rulebooks, codices, or models. It really is not that hard. I've just stopped supporting them.

stormwell wrote:

 McNinja wrote:
Games Workshop's failing is that they are only thinking short term. How sustainable is their business with their current model? Can they continue another five years? Another ten? If they increase prices every year, then no. Even as a Shareholder, I'm sure that there is a point where you'd say "woah, this is too much." It may be that Stormravens are $200 before that happens, but eventually they will price you out of the hobby unless you're making well into the six figure range.

There are a few things GW needs to do in order to last more than a few more years. Only the most wuss of parents will buy their kid an $85 plastic model when that money could go to the mortgage or utilities or a car payment or a vacation. GW lowering their prices, accepting the fact that the internet isn't only for pirates and actually using it to promote their product rather than restrict it all to one site, and turning their business model into something sustainable for longer than the next three years will do wonders for their customer base.

My dad said he sees GW crop up alot in the financial press, its typically bad news and I believe he even stated that the Financial Times considers GW a bad company to invest in.

Yeah, though I'm not sure it takes an economics journal to see that. The company is going nowhere but down, and when it goes down, it'll go hard. They have no idea how to create a sustainable environment, and even if they do, they refuse to do it.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
You're missing the point. They are the same thing.

You don't buy 40k products without paying GW. You don't enjoy 40k without enjoying GW.

You're deceiving yourself when you make a distinction and create your own frustration.

If you don't like GW, drop them completely from your life. It's like anything else that you don't like in life. Wallowing in your own self-created grief is stupid.

The only useful thing that can come out of threads like this is learning who actually plays 40k, and who can safely be put on ignore since they don't actually play the game.

I like warhammer.

I Dislike GW.

I exist.

Your logic is flawed.


I can understand that GW made warhammer and I am enjoying something made by GW, but the GW that made it is not the GW selling it. No one is left from that time other than Jervis and the business has made radical changes in the past 30 years.
It is entirely possible to like the product but not the company selling it to you. I like Call of Duty 2 despite hating what EA have done to the series, I don't like companies like McDonalds using pink slime in their meat but I still love their fries. It is entirely possible to like something without liking the person that created it.

At this point I am heavily invested in the hobby, and I am not going to stop playing GW games because of this sort of thing, I will do everything I can to spend my money elsewhere though. A all or nothing mindset is simply stupit at this point.

And I don't actually play 40k at the moment but I do play fantasy, which still counts despite the title of the thread.

 Deathshead420 wrote:

To show that I am serious any mod that reads this feel free to delete my account as this will be my last post. Sucks.

Deaths

What does being done with GW have to do with being done with Dakka? That's just silly.

 Surtur wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:
Too bad kirby said he wants to open up 800 new one man demo stores.

I cannot imagine how much damage is done to the wargaming hobby by people walking into GW stores and seeing the costs.

This is exactly why I can't get my group of 10 or so friends to play. They think the models look really nice but spending $100 for a baneblade or $40 per ten plastic soldiers and they say no way.

 jonolikespie wrote:

I will do everything I can to spend my money elsewhere though.

This.

There's no need to boycott GW. Even buying their own products from an independent will hit their bottom line as they won't make as much margin on it. Look for alternate models, look at alternative games, but just do not spend a penny with GW directly. If there's a sudden spike in demand from the Indy channel coupled with a fall in revenue from the direct channel then it will send a message, as it will result in a minimum 40% drop in revenue, likely more. We can do that and still keep playing the game should we want to.

Alas, it won't happen because, as I've said before, uniting war gamers is harder than herding cats.

 Deathshead420 wrote:


To show that I am serious any mod that reads this feel free to delete my account as this will be my last post. Sucks.

If GW somehow comes to their senses I will be back.....
Good night, and good luck.

Deaths

A lot more going on Dakka than just GW. Relax dude.

I love the 40k setting, it's the reason I play, but more than that, I do actually enjoy the game.

That being said, I have no interest in accepting ridiculous GW policies and products. Their stupid supplements, 1-click bundles and the like annoy the hell out of me, but I don't have to interact with that. My FLGS offers one of the best discounts in the country, and is even comparable with US discounted retailers (considering we have a 20%+ "Not American" markup, that's saying something). I have no qualms supporting them, and playing with people I enjoy spending time with .

I actually like the changes in 6th, sans fliers, and am not a tournament player at all, my issues with GW are entirely corporate, and I have no interesting in supporting them directly. I've never purchased from GW direct, either at the one provincial store (been there a few times, unpleasent environment, would not recommend) or online, and my armies are supplemented by a fair amount of non-GW product, product which would preclude me from ever interacting with them directly.

I have no intention of stopping my 40k hobby, nor does my group; some dabble in Warmahordes and Malifaux, but that's a once-in-a-blue-moon thing, or on days which are not our gaming nights. However, all of us agree GW has some piss poor policies, and we avoid them as best we can. We enjoy the hobby and game in spite of GW corporate decisions, and sincerely hope their one-man store program, and other asinine policies fail completely, and result in the company being bought by someone with an ounce of business sense.

GW makes money off of us, but more importantly, our non-gw FLGS continues to operate. What is important, is GW is making less money off of us now than they have in the past. Their new supplements, and even new army releases don't arouse a lot of interest or attention. The Tau promise to be a big seller, but so much of what they're releasing has priced people out of purchasing much new product, and the design of many new models don't draw much interest.

I think that's quite indicitive too; most of us aren't hardcore, long-term wargamers. Two of our group were around for 2nd ed, 1 for RT, and most of us came in either in 4th or the end of 5th. We're all relatively new, we love the lore, the setting, the books and the games (most of us started with Dawn of War), but even we're tired of a lot of the stuff GW pulls, and their corporate direction. What does it say about the health of your business when the people who love your IP, and haven't been customers for terribly long are already feeling worn out, and while they continue to play and enjoy the game, so much of your new product goes ignored.

 Ravenous D wrote:
You're missing the point.

Of course he is. He's DarknessEternal. He's like a more aggressive SoloFalcon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
You don't enjoy 40k without enjoying GW.

That's bs.

nkelsch wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:


Its better to fight for what you love then just getting walked all over.

Tell me how that works out for you in court when you try to defend committing a felony assault as 'fighting for what you love instead of being walked over'.

I am sure that will also be a great iron-clad defense in piracy/copyright infringement cases too.

Are there any laws you don't advocate breaking as a solution to your problems?

Nope, because laws are for "the Man" and "the Man" isn't going to keep him down, by god.

DarknessEternal wrote:You're missing the point. They are the same thing.

You don't buy 40k products without paying GW. You don't enjoy 40k without enjoying GW.

You're deceiving yourself when you make a distinction and create your own frustration.

If you don't like GW, drop them completely from your life. It's like anything else that you don't like in life. Wallowing in your own self-created grief is stupid.

The only useful thing that can come out of threads like this is learning who actually plays 40k, and who can safely be put on ignore since they don't actually play the game.

That is so utterly flawed it's not even funny.

So because I don't like that GM is now owned by the US Gov. I should sell my 1987 Chevy Truck? NO. I bought it used. GM didn't get paid twice because I bought it from someone who bought it from them. (actually I'm like the 4th owner). I do my own maintenace, the dealer makes no money from me. Heck, I have to get most of the parts from 3rd party companies.

So when I buy a used 40k model on ebay, GW gets a cut of that? NO! When I buy a used rule book on Amazon, does GW get a cut of that? NO! When I buy vallejo paint from my FLGS to paint my used models, does GW get a cut of that? NO.

Thank you and have a nice day.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:
You're missing the point.

Of course he is. He's DarknessEternal. He's like a more aggressive SoloFalcon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
You don't enjoy 40k without enjoying GW.

That's bs.

If I had a cent for every time you guys have repeated this exact sequence of words has been posted on Dakka, I might well have enough for a single character model..

GW is a very different company from the one that existed in the 90's, early 00's. Nearly all of the development staff, sculptors, artists (in summary, the most important people) have gone, and in fact many have gone on to start other companies or create some great games in there own right.

It's therefore quite possible to love the company from that era, its products and games, and completely disassociate yourself from the GW of 2013, which is a very different beast. The badge on the outside is the same (although.. one wonders how valid it is, considering the 'games' now total a grand total of 3), but really, with a couple of exceptions, that is pretty much it.

 SickSix wrote:


So because I don't like that GM is now owned by the US Gov. I should sell my 1987 Chevy Truck? NO. I bought it used. GM didn't get paid twice because I bought it from someone who bought it from them. (actually I'm like the 4th owner). I do my own maintenace, the dealer makes no money from me. Heck, I have to get most of the parts from 3rd party companies.

So you say, but unlike you, a lot of these people would be people who ARE buying new cars from GM while disliking how the company was run. They can't help themselves apparently.

" I am not buying anything! Except for this book I need, I can't play without that... and this 3rd party kit requires a Stormraven so I have to buy two of those... oh and they released this new unit so I have to buy that to future-proof my army which is an investment... But no! I am not not supporting GW!"

So when I buy a used 40k model on ebay, GW gets a cut of that? NO! When I buy a used rule book on Amazon, does GW get a cut of that? NO! When I buy vallejo paint from my FLGS to paint my used models, does GW get a cut of that? NO.

Thank you and have a nice day.

Depends. When you buy a used model on eBay often you are supporting GW and they are getting a cut because by buying one person's old model you are giving them cash to buy new models which they wouldn't necessarily have. Many people 'Flavor of the month' with the explicit goal of buying, playing and then selling them for a minor loss so when you boil it down they keep recycling armies with less and less out of pocket. So by you buying his army, he is buying a new army, effectively you are buying a new army through that seller even if it is second hand.

You may be able to kill the chain by buying from a wargamer consignment eBay store, because they won't be buying GW products, but sometimes people who want to turn around and buy new GW stuff will sell to consignment people. No matter how you slice it, there is a good chance that the money you spend on a second-hand GW products will be resulting in a GW product purchase with your money.

Maybe interview people and only buy second-hand from people who are getting out of the hobby and won't be using the sale money to purchase GW products.

Just visited the Spiky BIts and Warstore website and both are still selling GW products. Im confused....

 spacewolf407 wrote:
Just visited the Spiky BIts and Warstore website and both are still selling GW products. Im confused....

The terms do not go into effect until June 15th.

I see, I better take advantage of the discounts before it happens!

Myself, only buy from online sellers or retailers; won't ever again buy direct from GW. Also buying from other makers as Anvil, Kromlech or Puppetswar.

Eilif wrote:
Folks can say that they aren't supporting GW by buying used, but it isn't really true. Folks buying used are often freeing up a GW buyer to buy more GW, and the strong market for used GW is part of the cache of of GW products. That is to say, GW products are are so well regarded that they have a strong resale value. Those buying from retailers at a discount are likewise still supporting GW.

I don't entirely agree; yes some of the people selling of GW stuff are going to use the money to buy more GW stuff, but it seems at the moment most are selling GW stuff to buy from someone else, or are just getting out of the hobby.

Only if the buyer is in the first category are you supporting GW (and only if they weren't going to buy the new thing anyway, but you've deprived them of a new sale potentially worth more), but in the 2nd and 3rd categores you're actively hurting GW (because you're not buying new, and you're helping boost competition).

There's an indirect benefit though; in that since there is so much 2nd hand GW stuff floating about there are plenty of players who can keep playing, so there's more demand for GW. But that's tied into the critical mass and unless that encourages people to buy new stuff it won't help GW at all.

 Deathshead420 wrote:

Kind of makes me sad to think that Dakka Dakka, a site that I come to daily wont be on my bookmark bar any longer.I have been coming here for about 3 years nonstop and lurked for a year before that. As I am a DCM member it wont effect DD at all but still kind of blows.

To show that I am serious any mod that reads this feel free to delete my account as this will be my last post. Sucks.

If GW somehow comes to their senses I will be back.....
Good night, and good luck.

Deaths

You do know there are other wargames on the market, right? Some of them even have good rulesets, and are made by companies that actually like their fans and stuff.

Herzlos wrote:

Eilif wrote:
Folks can say that they aren't supporting GW by buying used, but it isn't really true. Folks buying used are often freeing up a GW buyer to buy more GW, and the strong market for used GW is part of the cache of of GW products. That is to say, GW products are are so well regarded that they have a strong resale value. Those buying from retailers at a discount are likewise still supporting GW.

I don't entirely agree; yes some of the people selling of GW stuff are going to use the money to buy more GW stuff, but it seems at the moment most are selling GW stuff to buy from someone else, or are just getting out of the hobby.

Only if the buyer is in the first category are you supporting GW (and only if they weren't going to buy the new thing anyway, but you've deprived them of a new sale potentially worth more), but in the 2nd and 3rd categores you're actively hurting GW (because you're not buying new, and you're helping boost competition).

There's an indirect benefit though; in that since there is so much 2nd hand GW stuff floating about there are plenty of players who can keep playing, so there's more demand for GW. But that's tied into the critical mass and unless that encourages people to buy new stuff it won't help GW at all.

I would like to see your statistics where you can say most secondhand sales result in a non-purchase or purchase of a different gaming system.

It is a nice narrative but unless you interview everyone you buy from and explicitly only buy from people who are promising not to never buy GW products again, you are still promoting GW sales. It is like buying organic, free range meat. You can just pretend all the meat you buy is organic and free range and give yourself warm fuzzies even if you are deceiving yourself, or you can be explicit and research deeply the source of meat for every store and restaurant you eat at and only buy from places who support your agenda.

nkelsch wrote:
]I would like to see your statistics where you can say most secondhand sales result in a non-purchase or purchase of a different gaming system.

It is a nice narrative but unless you interview everyone you buy from and explicitly only buy from people who are promising not to never buy GW products again, you are still promoting GW sales. It is like buying organic, free range meat. You can just pretend all the meat you buy is organic and free range and give yourself warm fuzzies even if you are deceiving yourself, or you can be explicit and research deeply the source of meat for every store and restaurant you eat at and only buy from places who support your agenda.

It is mostly anecdotal or educated guesses.

We already know GW has a serious churn rate, with most customers dropping the hobby completely after a couple of years. When they get out of the hobby those customers will either put the stuff in storage or try to get some money back from it by selling it on. Those people aren't going to be putting money back into GW and make up a large percentage of the fanbase. As they tend to be late teens/early 20's we can assume they are relatively technically competent and familiar with ebay and the likes.

Anecdotally; no-one I've seen mentioning selling GW stuff and mentioned an intention of what they are doing with the profits have expressed any interest in buying more GW stuff. They've exclusively used the GW stuff to raise the funds for other hobby products (or non-hobby stuff). This includes me, people in my local club and forum members.

We'll never know for sure, because it's impossible to track, but I reckon that at least half (easily) of the 2nd hand GW sales are from people who are not giving money back to GW. If not half then it's still a significant enough proportion to nullify this theory that buying GW stuff 2nd hand is putting money into GW's pockets.

Some will, but I reckon those that do are more than likely going to buy the new thing anyway, even if the old one doesn't sell, so not buying from them doesn't prevent a sale. Whereas buying from them does deny GW a sale (yours). Even at that you've only enabled a GW sale to the value of the sellers profit, so if you buy from a seller at 30% of RRP, you've enabled GW sales of 30% whilst denying them the other 70% and it's still a net loss to GW.

The only way GW makes a net gain on used sales is if you buy for more than the RRP and the seller spents it all in GW.

Herzlos wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

Some will, but I reckon those that do are more than likely going to buy the new thing anyway, even if the old one doesn't sell, so not buying from them doesn't prevent a sale. Whereas buying from them does deny GW a sale (yours). Even at that you've only enabled a GW sale to the value of the sellers profit, so if you buy from a seller at 30% of RRP, you've enabled GW sales of 30% whilst denying them the other 70% and it's still a net loss to GW.

The only way GW makes a net gain on used sales is if you buy for more than the RRP and the seller spents it all in GW.

Not really...

If I buy 200$ worth of merchandise from GW, play with it then sell it for 150$ to you, and then buy 150$ with of new merchandise, GW still got 350$ of sales even though you bought a second-hand army for less than retail. You didn't DENY GW anything because if I didn't sell my army to you for 150$, then I would have kept my 200$ army and bought nothing more. Without you entering your money into the market and buying a GW product, there wouldn't have been money to eventually make its way to GW. For many people, getting 6th months with a new army then selling it is worth a minor loss. And if you are a semi-decent painter you can often sell them for even or a profit if you are a deep discounter buyer.

You can say that you somehow denied GW a sale by buying second-hand, but if you are so angry at GW, then you really didn't deny them a sale at all as you were never a sale to have in the first place.

Recently I have been building Ork bikes. I have been collecting them second-hand for over a year and just putting them in a box. I wanted to see if I could do a whole army for 5$ a bike so whenever an ebay auction popped up for 5$ or less a bike, I would try to get it.

I ended up with about 50ish bikes in various conditions. I stripped them, fixed them, converted them, painted them. I only wanted around 40ish bikes, so I took 10 of them, made them all nice and clean with a neutral color so all someone has to do is match the base and colorscheme and sold them for around 15.00$ a bike which is around GW retail. I used that profit to buy the FW warboss and nobz which I was able to turn into 2 warboss bikes and 2 nob bikes.

How many of the second-hand bikes that I bought resulted in GW sales? I know me selling second-hand models resulted in GW sales. All of those are sales which would not have existed if I simply was not in the GW market at all even though they were mostly second-hand purchases. I can pretend that my actions were noble and intended to stick it to GW but it really didn't stick anything to GW as I would have never bought 40 bikes and 2 forgeworld kits at retail. GW directly benefited from the second-hand market, and they know it. They don't care how the heroin addicts get their cash as long as it gets to them eventually.

And don't get me started on playing 40k in public somehow not promoting the game system and helping drive new sales. That is the only reason FLGS allow us to game in their stores is to help promote street traffic to get interested in the games. I cannot put a fully painted army on the table at a game store without someone wanting to know more about the game we are playing. You can pretend that playing 40k at a game store doesn't promote sales or GW as a company, but most times, even if I am using all 3rd party models, if they want to look into the game, they will buy GW rulebooks and models FIRST, and what is available in the game store before even finding out about 3rd party models.

Unless you play 40k by yourself, in your basement with models made out of bellybutton lint and toenail clippings, it is pretty hard to say that continuing to play 40k will never result in promoting GW or getting GW a sale. If pretending it does keeps you from burning down your local GW, then tell yourself whatever makes you happy.

Time to grow up a little, people. These new terms will affect us as the consumers very little if at all. Oh, can't order conveniently from that website? They were required to use call-ins and mail-ins anyway. No bits services? Trust me, stores will find a way to maintain their bits stores.

Do I think GW is getting a bit drunk with their power? Yes. Their need to maintain a brand identity is starting to become unreasonably harsh, but in the end, they make a good product. Would I like to se them get their heads out of their asses and worry more about a good gaming experience? Yes.

The sky is not falling, cats and dogs don't live together, anarchy has not set in.

Cats and dogs due in fact live together quite well, every day, all across the world.

My GF has a dog and two cat. They get along fine.

I like playing, painting, and modeling 40k. I don't like the decisions that GW has been making lately. You can do both at the same time.

nkelsch wrote:

Herzlos wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

Some will, but I reckon those that do are more than likely going to buy the new thing anyway, even if the old one doesn't sell, so not buying from them doesn't prevent a sale. Whereas buying from them does deny GW a sale (yours). Even at that you've only enabled a GW sale to the value of the sellers profit, so if you buy from a seller at 30% of RRP, you've enabled GW sales of 30% whilst denying them the other 70% and it's still a net loss to GW.

The only way GW makes a net gain on used sales is if you buy for more than the RRP and the seller spents it all in GW.

Not really...

If I buy 200$ worth of merchandise from GW, play with it then sell it for 150$ to you, and then buy 150$ with of new merchandise, GW still got 350$ of sales even though you bought a second-hand army for less than retail. You didn't DENY GW anything because if I didn't sell my army to you for 150$, then I would have kept my 200$ army and bought nothing more. Without you entering your money into the market and buying a GW product, there wouldn't have been money to eventually make its way to GW. For many people, getting 6th months with a new army then selling it is worth a minor loss. And if you are a semi-decent painter you can often sell them for even or a profit if you are a deep discounter buyer.

But then you're missing the fact that if I bought 150$ of models from you and there was no 2nd hand market I've have bought them from GW for 200$, or a retailer for 160$, so assuming you wouldn't have bought more from GW without my money, and I've have bought them new, then GW is still down 10-50 $ in sales.

Of course, if I wasn't going to buy at the new price, GW would be up something, and if you weren't going to give it all back to GW, they'd have been down further. So a 2nd hand sale is no guarantee of supporting GW.

GW obviously benefits indirectly by having more people playing the game whatever they use for it and wherever they get it from. Their biggest selling point currently is that they are the most popular system, so offers the most gaming opportunities on buy-in (generally, local meta may differ).

Having just got my very first full time job, I'll now have more disposable income to spend on 40k. I like playing 40k, but I don't despise paying GW's prices. I can deal with paying prices less 10% from my local gaming store however, so I'll probably shell out for new releases that I like where possible, but otherwise I'll be eBay-ing or using 3rd party minis.

 DOGGED wrote:
Myself, only buy from online sellers or retailers; won't ever again buy direct from GW. Also buying from other makers as Anvil, Kromlech or Puppetswar.

Anvil and Puppetswar (once they get those Space Warrior models back out) will be seeing their fair share of my money. In the mean time, Paperhammer is free.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
Time to grow up a little, people. These new terms will affect us as the consumers very little if at all. Oh, can't order conveniently from that website? They were required to use call-ins and mail-ins anyway. No bits services? Trust me, stores will find a way to maintain their bits stores.

Do I think GW is getting a bit drunk with their power? Yes. Their need to maintain a brand identity is starting to become unreasonably harsh, but in the end, they make a good product. Would I like to se them get their heads out of their asses and worry more about a good gaming experience? Yes.

The sky is not falling, cats and dogs don't live together, anarchy has not set in.

Cats and dogs do live together, not all websites need to use mail-ins and call-ins, and GW does not make a good product. Not for the price they ask.

 Alpharius wrote:
Cats and dogs due in fact live together quite well, every day, all across the world.

Leave Solo alone!!!

Herzlos wrote:
But then you're missing the fact that if I bought 150$ of models from you and there was no 2nd hand market I've have bought them from GW for 200$, or a retailer for 160$, so assuming you wouldn't have bought more from GW without my money, and I've have bought them new, then GW is still down 10-50 $ in sales.

But if you buy $150 worth of second hand models and the guy you bought them from owns a small business and pays that $150 to an employee who then goes onto put that $150 into his rent, and the land lord uses that $150 to pay back a friend who lent him some money, and that friend gives his nephew a $150 GW gift voucher, you're still supporting GW. In fact, paying your taxes will eventually support GW in some way. When a butterfly flaps its wings in central park, GW somehow makes money from you. It's the truth.


tl;dr - You will never win this argument. As far as some of the people at this board are concerned, even talking about GW products is considered 'support'.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
Cats and dogs due in fact live together quite well, every day, all across the world.

Leave Solo alone!!!

The mods are so mean to that guy. Honestly.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
But if you buy $150 worth of second hand models and the guy you bought them from owns a small business and pays that $150 to an employee who then goes onto put that $150 into his rent, and the land lord uses that $150 to pay back a friend who lent him some money, and that friend gives his nephew a $150 GW gift voucher, you're still supporting GW. In fact, paying your taxes will eventually support GW in some way. When a butterfly flaps its wings in central park, GW somehow makes money from you. It's the truth.


tl;dr - You will never win this argument. As far as some of the people at this board are concerned, even talking about GW products is considered 'support'.

Way to support GW with your chaos theory example...

 Jehan-reznor wrote:

Samurai_Eduh wrote:
but they do what they have to do to please shareholders like me. That's business.

Other large companies also have shareholders, and mostly they are knowledgeable of their market, most shareholders are interested in long time investments, just not short time profits.

In what universe? The vast majority of "shareholders" these days don't have any clue at all where their money is even invested, the cash is coming from brokers, from investment schemes and pension funds all being run by a handful of people who're concerned only with maximising returns in order to up their own percentage, and these people are the ones who have the input into the direction of the company not the actual investors. Not to mention that often the board running a company will have massive percentages of the available shares in that company, and as a result are perfectly willing to enact short-termist destructive policies if they think that will make them more money than playing the long game. Once a company reaches a certain size and value, the upper management becomes/is replaced by an entirely different class of "businessperson", a distinct group who exist solely to enrich themselves at any cost, who move from company to company enacting one-size-fits-all business school nonsense with no regard for the needs and long-term health of the company or the particulars of the industry, and who can fail spectacularly to the point of causing a company to collapse and simply stroll into a new job within months because of the incestuous and nepotistic relationships they can exploit with others of their ilk.

Market capitalism is broken, and has been since the 80's, GW is simply the latest victim.

< Taken by the void dragon. >

Easy solution to this:

- Play Imperial Guard.

Lots and lots of 3rd party options here. Mantic, Dreamforge, take your pic. Add vehicles from a variety of places, enjoy.

You don't have to keep buying GW minis to play their games.

This is a bit harder with 40k, but for fantasy, you're spoilt for choice and there's zero reason to buy GW-anything with certain armies.

 Ravenous D wrote:
Too bad kirby said he wants to open up 800 new one man demo stores.

Yes, and a manager's salary being about $30,000 a year (2×minimum wage) before taxes of course, multiplied by that number of stores would be $24,000,000. Add that to the existing stores and their salaries then subtract that from the 300,000,000 that GW brings in each year, and you are looking at about a tenth of their money practically being wasted. I say wasted because those jobs don't have to be there, let the local stores handle it all.

Then on top of the wages figure out lease price, utilities, and insurance, not to mention maintenance of facilities. Let's say each store costs $1000 per month (lease only) = $12,000 year × 800 stores comes to $9,600,000 so now let's average for utilities $300/month × 12= 3600 × stores 800 = $2,880,000 so that is so far a total operating cost of $36,840,000. That is over 10% of their costs right there. Use this formula and add up for the other stores that they already have and you are probably coming close to $50,000,000 in the US alone. If Kirby opens that many stores, that 10% becomes a sixth of that $300,000,000 that GW gets per year. Now tell me why they don't want to support the FLGS who take on all those risks by themselves? Does GW just like throwing money away? GW should stick to producing, manufacturing, and distributing its products if they realky want to maximize profit!

Where is the "I have no intent on dropping 40k or GW" option?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

xraytango wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:
Too bad kirby said he wants to open up 800 new one man demo stores.

Yes, and a manager's salary being about $30,000 a year (2×minimum wage) before taxes of course, multiplied by that number of stores would be $24,000,000. Add that to the existing stores and their salaries then subtract that from the 300,000,000 that GW brings in each year, and you are looking at about a tenth of their money practically being wasted. I say wasted because those jobs don't have to be there, let the local stores handle it all.

Then on top of the wages figure out lease price, utilities, and insurance, not to mention maintenance of facilities. Let's say each store costs $1000 per month (lease only) = $12,000 year × 800 stores comes to $9,600,000 so now let's average for utilities $300/month × 12= 3600 × stores 800 = $2,880,000 so that is so far a total operating cost of $36,840,000. That is over 10% of their costs right there. Use this formula and add up for the other stores that they already have and you are probably coming close to $50,000,000 in the US alone. If Kirby opens that many stores, that 10% becomes a sixth of that $300,000,000 that GW gets per year. Now tell me why they don't want to support the FLGS who take on all those risks by themselves? Does GW just like throwing money away? GW should stick to producing, manufacturing, and distributing its products if they realky want to maximize profit!

So I presume you have a business degree to go with all this groundbreaking insight?

Didn't realize I needed a business degree to do math. Next you'll be telling me that I need a biochemical degree to cook, or a degree in thermodynamics and applied sciences to set my HVAC system to a comfortable temperature.

I work for an electrical contractor and I do estimates for projects that need to be bid out. This entails figuring permits, labor-hours, and materials. I have been doing this for nearly twenty years. So unfortunately I have more experience behind my name than alphabet soup.

xraytango wrote:
Didn't realize I needed a business degree to do math. Next you'll be telling me that I need a biochemical degree to cook, or a degree in thermodynamics and applied sciences to set my HVAC system to a comfortable temperature.

I work for an electrical contractor and I do estimates for projects that need to be bid out. This entails figuring permits, labor-hours, and materials. I have been doing this for nearly twenty years. So unfortunately I have more experience behind my name than alphabet soup.

And you lowballed the rent. Certainly it will be higher, most likely much higher.

Expenses are the easy part - income is where the WAG kicks in. *EDIT* Not just your Wild Ass Guesses, either - GW is doing some pretty big guessing right now, too. How many of those 800 stores will likely close within two years?)

The Auld Grump

Sure, but across the board, rent can be higher in some locations, lower in others. I know of a comic shop that is in a 40'x60' (2400ft2) store and their rent is about $900/month, and it is on a main street. So I did lowball the rent, admittedly because of the variable areas and cheap strip malls with low square footage GW stores. Maybe plug in $2500/mo for rent there? That's more likely a closer guess.

And the manager's salary was actually on the GW site a while back in the careers section. So that one is right :-)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

xraytango wrote:
Didn't realize I needed a business degree to do math. Next you'll be telling me that I need a biochemical degree to cook, or a degree in thermodynamics and applied sciences to set my HVAC system to a comfortable temperature.

I work for an electrical contractor and I do estimates for projects that need to be bid out. This entails figuring permits, labor-hours, and materials. I have been doing this for nearly twenty years. So unfortunately I have more experience behind my name than alphabet soup.

And you lowballed the rent. Certainly it will be higher, most likely much higher.

Expenses are the easy part - income is where the WAG kicks in. *EDIT* Not just your Wild Ass Guesses, either - GW is doing some pretty big guessing right now, too. How many of those 800 stores will likely close within two years?)

The Auld Grump

So how many sales could they possibly turn over in two years time? I would suppose not enough to keep them open for another two years. Hence why those stores are a major financial millstone around GWs neck and why they should drop the stores entirely and focus on supplying product.

OR they could just open more manufacturing plants, objectively speaking to drive down shipping costs, thus effectively reducing overall price and increasing surplus of product, end result is more manufacturing = less price per/unit = more units produced = more money for investors = less abandonment issues = more happy gamers = GW being considered as a decent company as a whole = everyone happy.

also they could quit with being so secretive about new releases (i find out what's new from 3rd party rumour mongers which turn out to be 100% spot on 9 out of 10 times) effectively increasing potential towards "free advertising" to create the much needed public awareness of such a supposed sucessful company.


there are a number of things that could/should be changed/implemented to benefit both the consumer and the manufacturer as well as investors/ceo's and their ilk.

upper management needs new direction from an actual inspired wargaming fan (GW originally started as "by gamers for gamers", which has been eradicated from memory in large part) based CEO. that is my input on the subject (as this is already quite heated debate i'll end on that note)

FYI i have no further EDU than yr 11 (didn't finish highschool) but i have a basic understanding of economics in general per se for you time and patience

My next army is going to be entirely scratch-built and/or consisting of 3rd party miniatures. I haven't used GW paints in a decade (except for washes, but I'm working on weaning myself off of those now). If I can get off my ass and get some work done on Aetherverse again I'd like to just drop 40K's rules entirely, but realistically speaking having the game there as a structure for my modeling hobby is useful.

Basically, the only thing I'm buying from GW at this point are the rulebooks, and I only buy THOSE when I'm finally ready to play an army in a tournament. I'm pretty sure their books are loss leaders, so I'm not really doing them any favors.

 cincydooley wrote:
Where is the "I have no intent on dropping 40k or GW" option?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

xraytango wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:
Too bad kirby said he wants to open up 800 new one man demo stores.

Yes, and a manager's salary being about $30,000 a year (2×minimum wage) before taxes of course, multiplied by that number of stores would be $24,000,000. Add that to the existing stores and their salaries then subtract that from the 300,000,000 that GW brings in each year, and you are looking at about a tenth of their money practically being wasted. I say wasted because those jobs don't have to be there, let the local stores handle it all.

Then on top of the wages figure out lease price, utilities, and insurance, not to mention maintenance of facilities. Let's say each store costs $1000 per month (lease only) = $12,000 year × 800 stores comes to $9,600,000 so now let's average for utilities $300/month × 12= 3600 × stores 800 = $2,880,000 so that is so far a total operating cost of $36,840,000. That is over 10% of their costs right there. Use this formula and add up for the other stores that they already have and you are probably coming close to $50,000,000 in the US alone. If Kirby opens that many stores, that 10% becomes a sixth of that $300,000,000 that GW gets per year. Now tell me why they don't want to support the FLGS who take on all those risks by themselves? Does GW just like throwing money away? GW should stick to producing, manufacturing, and distributing its products if they realky want to maximize profit!

So I presume you have a business degree to go with all this groundbreaking insight?

It is really simple math - really it is (though I would tend to agree with the other Auld Grumpy guy - some of the figures are a bit on the low side of things). The real kicker though is when you look at their stated goal of 700-800 stores and then you look at how many trade accounts they have with existing retailers...the last number which I found for the US was 823... Coincidence?

One of the nice things about having a trade account in an existing market is that they don't need to do any market research. If the store is selling over a specific dollar amount in GW products - they will drop a GW store the next block over. Customers will have to go there because of the various direct only, new release and other limitations that are being leveraged against independent suppliers.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:


One of the nice things about having a trade account in an existing market is that they don't need to do any market research. If the store is selling over a specific dollar amount in GW products - they will drop a GW store the next block over. Customers will have to go there because of the various direct only, new release and other limitations that are being leveraged against independent suppliers.

The funny thing is is that GW is going to hurt themselves in two ways there; they can avoid that GW store down the block because you can buy exclusives from GW from their (*gasp*) internet store. People can avoid that GW store by going online, especially in the second case where disenfranchised buyers will avoid their stores like the plague.

Conversely though, GW is trying to create a brand image for itself as friendly (to children), an exciting hobby (to a gullible demographic), and something all your friends are doing because ah...look! We just released some new models! Look! Shiny! Your friends have four each, why don't you have any yet! GIVE ME YOUR MONEY!

In that context, GW can toss its clout and image behind the product and try to smother the independent retailers.

really all that will happen is LGSs will just sell at a discount, until GW writes up the next agreement that bans discounts.

Ive been looking at the customer and business protection acts and its all sorts of illegal here, Im sure GW is still assuming no one will get off their ass and do something about it.

 Ravenous D wrote:
really all that will happen is LGSs will just sell at a discount, until GW writes up the next agreement that bans discounts.

Ive been looking at the customer and business protection acts and its all sorts of illegal here, Im sure GW is still assuming no one will get off their ass and do something about it.

The great thing about attacking Mom & Pop stores is that they aren't Mom, Pop & the Lawyer. These guys can't defend themselves and need some serious pro bono work done to get their rights protected.

Hopefully someone steps up, it would be nice to remind GW that its not 1775 anymore.

 Magc8Ball wrote:
Basically, the only thing I'm buying from GW at this point are the rulebooks, and I only buy THOSE when I'm finally ready to play an army in a tournament. I'm pretty sure their books are loss leaders, so I'm not really doing them any favors.

There's no way the books are loss leaders. Companies are making plenty of money selling much larger (and better edited) books for less money, so GW can't be losing any money selling them.

I buy the FFG RPG books now for my 40k fix. It's been working out well, haven't bought a GW model or rulebook in years.

Im sick of gw n im not even in the same possition as you americans. I wont buy from gw at all only second hand stuff and to be honest im looking at getting away from gw models all together and use other companies models.
Nor am i the biggest fan of 6th ed which has lead me to getting into other companies rule systems like dropzone commander and urban war/ metropolis by hawk wargames and urban mammouth respectivly.

I pay full retail for my GW. At my FLGS. I have no advantage buying at my store other than giving them business and getting to get my hands on what I buy in real time(limited selection of course, I do order stuff through them as well).

I never buy retail bits, anywhere. I've never ordered any GW online.

My point is, do I represent a segment of other gamers? Should I get mad at my FLGS because they never discount? Should I rage?

I like 40k the setting but the game is rubbish now a days so I play other games.

As for gw, least said the better

 Sean_OBrien wrote:


It is really simple math - really it is (though I would tend to agree with the other Auld Grumpy guy - some of the figures are a bit on the low side of things). The real kicker though is when you look at their stated goal of 700-800 stores and then you look at how many trade accounts they have with existing retailers...the last number which I found for the US was 823... Coincidence?

One of the nice things about having a trade account in an existing market is that they don't need to do any market research. If the store is selling over a specific dollar amount in GW products - they will drop a GW store the next block over. Customers will have to go there because of the various direct only, new release and other limitations that are being leveraged against independent suppliers.

Auld, Grumpy, and an O'Brien.

The Auld Grump

Haven't played 40k since last summer. The game isn't fun anymore, and GW's business tactics, prices, and poor quality releases of late provide no incentive to even collect their models.

I've effectively divorced myself entirely from GW at this point. Granted, I don't play or paint much anymore, since I'm kind of busy doing a lot of other work right now, but in the rare chance I do get for tabletop shenanigans, by gaze has shifted entirely away from GW.

If 7th edition were to come out and be something that I felt was actually fun and worth playing, I'd consider dusting off my armies and hitting the table again, but at the current prices, I wouldn't consider actually buying anything new from GW.

On one hand I completly understand your feelings. I just intended to play 40k again, I live in Paris so there are 3 GW shop nearby, and I always thought 40k miniatures were too expensive, but the last time I entered a GW store I was astonished by the price (really, everything gone up).
I also tend to take some freedom regarding the law (like a lot of people in my country) which means when I have no money I usually download a digital copy of a book and buy it later.
I started playing in V3, played V4 and the start of V5 and I always bought rules and codexs (which is dumb because I didn't play V5 at all, yeah tyranids). I've seen White Dwarf gone from a 4 € journal to a 8 € toilet paper full of photos and commercial.

But, as I completly understand the pent up disappointment regarding GW over the years, I have a hard time accepting the idea that you can play 40k, love the lore and have fun reading BL's books, and not supporting GW. Isn't GW the company that created 40k ? In the long run, if we don't support GW, is it a possibility that 40k will eventually take a hit and disappear ?

 Darkjim wrote:
Whilst I will still continue to buy the Heresy books, and slowly add to my 'Nids, I certainly feel the heart is going from GW. I'm lucky enough to have GW store within 5 minutes walk, and have spent thousands there over the years, even continuing to do so when cheaper online stores arrived, to support the shop. But the last few managers, all great guys, have come and gone, realising after a year that the living wage they could be receiving is going in part to dividends and (comparatively) vast board salaries.

In my personal experience, this is just what happens when many different types of company become large enough to support an upper management layer which does nothing other than shove the money around. All the value added stuff goes (as in this example, with their forums, and atricles, content in WD, Apoc pdfs etc, the website now is just a shop, it used to be a lot more), frontline staff struggle on but many that care more about the product and service than how big their car is, lose heart and move on .

The company also stops listening to feedback or criticism, because the money outweighs any opinion. The last manager at my local store said precisely that, the regional guy is clearly running scared of the next level up, who want costs down and sales up and are absolutely 100% unconcerned about anything else whatsoever.

Sad. but probably inevitable.

Really great post. I think exactly the same : it's normal behavior for a bigger company, especially in this time where only profit matter. It's dumb yeah, but if you think about it, most of the companies you buy video games from are exactly the same.

WhiteDog wrote:
But, as I completly understand the pent up disappointment regarding GW over the years, I have a hard time accepting the idea that you can play 40k, love the lore and have fun reading BL's books, and not supporting GW. Isn't GW the company that created 40k ? In the long run, if we don't support GW, is it a possibility that 40k will eventually take a hit and disappear ?

Not really. The current GW was born in 1991. Before that, it was something different - and that is when most of the background for 40K was set to paper (though some has been expanded on since).

Should GW take a hit, 40K will not disappear...anymore than any other IP of any value has ever disappeared. It might stumble and cough about for a bit - but many things have become stronger after a company that was mismanaging them had fallen. With something like GW and their various assets it is even less likely than most that the settings would disappear. The tangible assets in the form of molds and machinery would be quite tempting for any number of companies or investors to pick up for a song from the bankruptcy liquidation sale, and they would be able to turn around and resume production without skipping a beat.

GW isn't going anywhere. The haters will come and go.

Games-Workshop lost me with 6th Ed. and their business practices, and it is nice to be rid of them tbh! Dakka and Black Library are my own connections to 40K universe I love, but I might stop purchasing from Black Library too now after their changes to their release policy.

 Byte wrote:
The haters will come and go.

Nice. Dismiss everyone's criticisms as being a 'hater'.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Byte wrote:
The haters will come and go.

Nice. Dismiss everyone's criticisms as being a 'hater'.

Does "disgruntled" or maybe "disillusioned" work for you?

 Byte wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Byte wrote:
The haters will come and go.

Nice. Dismiss everyone's criticisms as being a 'hater'.

Does "disgruntled" or maybe "disillusioned" work for you?

Would work better for me, but I assure you, they're only going.

GW has a tight grip on a large demographic of gamers. So many people cling to GW because "they have so much money invested in it" and use that excuse to put up with bad rules and an even worse company to player/seller relationship.

5 years ago i took a leap of faith and dropped GW for Privateer Press. Now I do not even look back. I am not saying PP is the silver bullet, but they listen to the fanbase better and are more involved with the community. You do not have to like PP, but take a chance and venture outside of the realms of GW and you will prolly find something you like.

i dunno what to do yet....
love my orkys , but finding the community in my local area shrink as far as 40k goes...

stopped playing years back and got back into it when 6th ed came out...

after about 8 months of playing 6th ed. cant say im 100% satisifed. its a freaking fun game to play.... but most times i play the game is slowed down by rules debates and Marine and IG players doing all they can to bend the rules so there so called "top tier" army doesnt lose to my WAAAGH!....

maybe time to shift to Warmahordes.

Just gonna throw Infinity's name in here, before the Warmahordes fanatics get all over the thread.

Haven't given up 40k, but won't be buying much more GW and will be focusing more on this in future.

Have a game of X Wing lined up for Monday too, which while not exactly a substitute, I have a feeling that will get a share of gaming time too.

Are people not wanting to buy GW because they feel the price is too high or do they feel that their purchasing power has decreased?

Personally, I've always felt that the models were overpriced and only bought certain items new. The majority of my purchases were at least 25% under retail.

Everyone will have their own particular reason for no longer purchasing from GW. For some it is the price increases, others it will be not liking the artistic direction which has been going through certain armies, still others will be issues with the company itself. I don't think you will really find a single answer to the question of why stop.

Personally though, I have taken the historical gamer's approach to sci-fi and divorced myself from using any one companies miniatures with any particular game system. I buy what I like, from who I like and I use those miniatures to play with any rules I like.

Sometimes we use Star Wars miniatures to play Infinity rules. Sometimes we use BSG miniatures to play BFG. Sometimes we use Stargate miniatures to play Necromunda... There is no reason to marry yourself to one set of rules or one miniature companies figures. There is a whole lot of variety out there which you can enjoy playing games with.

 Amaya wrote:
Are people not wanting to buy GW because they feel the price is too high or do they feel that their purchasing power has decreased?

Personally, I've always felt that the models were overpriced and only bought certain items new. The majority of my purchases were at least 25% under retail.

Well, for me it's a perfect storm, I find the value GW offers going through the floor, I dislike the aesthetic direction the studio seems to have taken recently and I'm dissatisfied with the apparent disregard they have for any customer outside of those that they have decided they want to buy their products. Despite all that, I have no intention of stopping playing, but I don't play in a GW store, and, like Sean says, there are many other alternatives for obtaining minis.

 azreal13 wrote:

 Amaya wrote:
Are people not wanting to buy GW because they feel the price is too high or do they feel that their purchasing power has decreased?

Personally, I've always felt that the models were overpriced and only bought certain items new. The majority of my purchases were at least 25% under retail.

Well, for me it's a perfect storm, I find the value GW offers going through the floor, I dislike the aesthetic direction the studio seems to have taken recently and I'm dissatisfied with the apparent disregard they have for any customer outside of those that they have decided they want to buy their products. Despite all that, I have no intention of stopping playing, but I don't play in a GW store, and, like Sean says, there are many other alternatives for obtaining minis.

Any specific models come to mind? There have several over the last two years that I found cartoonish and poorly designed.

@Sean, thanks. I didn't consider several of the aspects you noted.

Well, pretty much any large model since the Storm Raven! The smaller models haven't been so bad, but the whole range seems to be getting more action figure/toy and less finely sculpted embodiment of the far flung grim dark future.

You look at the quality of what Dream Forge or Mierce or any other number of small scale studios are doing, and compare the price, size and detail to what GW turn out, it's the big company that often turn up wanting. GW can still turn out something special on occasion, I do quite like the new Riptide, despite my comments, but don't play Tau, so purchasing it isn't even a question, but it's a loong time since they've really knocked me on my arse with something.

I have high hopes for the rumoured plastic GDs when they make an appearance, they might be enough to tempt me, but I already have two alternate models for a BT and GUO, and great options for a LoC and KoS, so they will have to be spectacular to convince me not to buy 3rd party.

Plastic greater demon?

Doesn't get much greater than this guy:

http://www.reapermini.com/OnlineStore/demon/latest/14417

Coming soon in Bones. Actually, quite a few demons made it through their KS Campaign - and to be honest, GW's take on the demonic had always left me a bit unmoved. Some of their sketches were OK - but they never really managed to transition well into miniatures and looked more comical than scary things which want to drag your soul off to hell (or the warp as the case may be).

 Amaya wrote:
Are people not wanting to buy GW because they feel the price is too high or do they feel that their purchasing power has decreased?

Personally, I've always felt that the models were overpriced and only bought certain items new. The majority of my purchases were at least 25% under retail.

I personaly think the game is boring to play. And compared to other games I have played over the years GW games tend to become a money pit. Many people I have known over the years have just bought models, but then just fallen through, and never played much. This is the general feeling I get from the GW games, people buy lots of models but they do not play the game. There are better and cheaper gaming systems that require less miniatures to play and have fun with.

I remember the feeling though when I first struck out into the Unkown. But after you take that first step and then look back you ask yourself why dident I do this years ago... Of all the gaming systems I have tried, Warmachine/hordes, Flames of War, Malifoux and a few others, GW has the worst rules of them all.

I personally belive that GW needs to die off, it has outlived its use, its time for others to pick up the torch and carry this hobby into the next decade. There is a really large world of table-top gaming out there, loads of companies producing really good games....

 Amaya wrote:
Are people not wanting to buy GW because they feel the price is too high or do they feel that their purchasing power has decreased?

Personally, I've always felt that the models were overpriced and only bought certain items new. The majority of my purchases were at least 25% under retail.

For me it is mostly that the price is too high for the quality and quantity of product you receive. There are some kits that I find to be quite reasonable and in line with other manufacturers. For example, the retail price of a box of plague bearers works out to about $3 per model for really nice models.

However, the price of their infantry that is in the special section of the army books is just stupidly expensive when you need to buy about 4 boxes for a minimally effective unit. The price of their larger kits and finecast characters is just so far beyond what I think is a reasonable value that I wont even contemplate buying them.

The price and quality of the codexes and army books I also find to be offensive. About the only GW product I buy now is army books and only then for armies I use at a tournament. I used to buy practically every army book as it came out for 40k and fantasy, now I dont even update armybooks for all the armies I own models for. Presently I own very large to decent sized collections of models for 13 40K and whfb armies. I forsee only buying updates for Imperial Guard, Vampire Counts, fantasy Demons and Lizardmen.

 Amaya wrote:
Are people not wanting to buy GW because they feel the price is too high or do they feel that their purchasing power has decreased?

Personally, I've always felt that the models were overpriced and only bought certain items new. The majority of my purchases were at least 25% under retail.

For me it is very much the price to value ratio. I have happily spent $100 on nice, 70mm models that are used for nothing other than painting, so price is not an issue, but the price for the quality I am seeing is not worth it. That $100 model is resin with absolutely beautiful detail, GWs $100 worth of models is 10 guys who are 'meh' quality.
As well the most recent releases seem to throw in large kits for no reason other than they can make them. The khorn cannon from the daemons release being a perfect example, they could have mounted the thing on a bloodcrusher but they didn't they HAD to make it bigger and on an oval base. Then there were the dino bots in the chaos marine release, if they had have redone their infantry in the same stly as the DV guys and new raptors I'd have been all over that, instead they have ended up with several items in the line being 'mutated marines', left the rest of the line as the outdated 'spikey marines' then tossed the dino bots on top.

 Byte wrote:
I pay full retail for my GW. At my FLGS. I have no advantage buying at my store other than giving them business and getting to get my hands on what I buy in real time(limited selection of course, I do order stuff through them as well).

I never buy retail bits, anywhere. I've never ordered any GW online.

My point is, do I represent a segment of other gamers? Should I get mad at my FLGS because they never discount? Should I rage?

If you love to support your FLGS so much you probably should rage at GW for restricting them with a limit of $500 direct only and exclusive items in a move I can only describe as GW wanting to push sales away from the FLGS who support them.

I like to support my FLGS, though I tend to not do it via GW. I do it by getting their traded goods and accessories and items that they make more money on. Occasionally I'll do a big miniatures order through my FLGS and the guy gives me 15-25% off (it's not an advertised or organised discount, it's just a case of "oh you're ordering all this, it'll be $230, I'll just make it $200 for you"). I've been going to that FLGS for about 16 years.

However, I think my FLGS is very much disgruntled toward GW. Over the 15 years I've been going there, their GW selection has shrunk to a fraction of the size while other table top games have massively increased and often I go there to order some GW product the owner will complain about what GW is doing to him now or how they are fething him around or how they won't let him order a certain thing or whatever. Back when I started, there was a 90% chance that what I wanted he carried, now it's more like 10% chance he'll have it and 90% he has to order it and when he does have to order it, increasingly GW are screwing him over by delaying it for one reason or another. I most recently ordered about $300 of Lizardmen from him and it took a month to get there. I could have ordered from a 3rd party seller in the UK and it would have gotten to me quicker, why the hell did it take GW so long to supply their own FLGS when I could have gotten it direct delivered from the other side of the world faster than that?

I really don't feel remotely bad for my FLGS if I order online internationally or from discounters or 2nd hand or whatever, GW are the ones screwing him over, not me, and now instead of trying to reduce how much they screw him over, they're going to screw me over even more, yay...

Even the "can't open box" thing is going to screw over my FLGS because I'd often go in and ask "I need this this and this out of this box, you can keep the rest, how much?". There's things I never would have bought if it weren't for him being able to open the boxes and he made more money off it in the end.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Even the "can't open box" thing is going to screw over my FLGS because I'd often go in and ask "I need this this and this out of this box, you can keep the rest, how much?". There's things I never would have bought if it weren't for him being able to open the boxes and he made more money off it in the end.

You should still be able to do that, though I could understand a stores reluctance to do so because you won't need to actually be guilty of a breach in terms for GW to cut you off.

The store can't split things up to sell, so they can't offer just the bits you want. But there's no restriction on the store buying used partial kits, so you could arrange to buy the kit and sell him the stuff you don't want back, Then it never came from GW so he can do what he wants with it. But as I said, I'm not sure GW would view it favourably anyway

Well personally I blame Phil Barker and the Wargames Research Group for giving them the idea of multiple editions and constantly redefining what the figures looked like, their equipment and how they played in the name of "research".

I stopped after WRG 6th. by which time my Late Roman Legionaries had gone from Regular C, Leather armour and LTS to Regular D, unarmoured with JLS and then back to Regular B, HI with HTW, D, JLS, Sh..... but I digress

The fact is I think that when complaining about GW people are comparing apples & oranges.

For "you" it's a hobby, a game, a shared activity, a solo activity, a friendly game, a competition - and possibly a way of life if you started painting your car red because it will go faster...

For GW it is simply a business from which they aim to extract as much money as possible.

The fantasy and science fiction nature of the "universes" allows them to constantly "discover" new armies, new characters which have to fitted into new rules which have to be upgraded every couple of years etc etc

In some ways it is very like a computer game, you liked Orc Nuns I, so you buy Orc Nuns II & III & IV and the spin-offs and the add-on packs and you upgrade the hardware to play it etc etc

One reason I suspect LOTR and The Hobbit don't do so well is that GW don't have the same control over the setting so it is harder to invent "new" races and "new" characters - not that seems to have stopped Peter Jackson & GW trying IMHO

I have loads of 40K stuff I still haven't got round to painting or assembling, I don't buy much new now as I have most things (actually that's what I said 2 days before buying DV box set plus extra cultists and bits for conversions and.....)

I don't competitively game and rarely friendly either, preferring solo gaming for the tabletop. I do a lot of FFG DH and now Only War (another good excuse for that "extra" squad....)

We don't have a FLGS, there is a nearly local GW store but I prefer to buy online - because I'm lazy and the car parking costs too much.

After some bad experiences with independents I tend to stick to GW now, you don't get a "discount" but for me the service has always been excellent and that's worth it.

I stick with GW because I like them, like the background. Where I don't like the rules and the army lists I change them - which I can do as I only have myself to please. I buy less figures probably because I have what I need (until the next time) and the prices are an issue in a recession.

AFAIK GW are not currently involved in human rights abuses but are a company selling a legal product in a free market to consenting customers, so talking of "boycotts" to me demeans the term.

If you like it, want it, and can afford it - then buy it. If you don't then don't. Just like I do with Maccie D's....

At the end of the day we're moving bits of plastic, metal (and resin!) around on a table pretending they represent something which isn't real, using sciences and magics which are made up, in a universe that doesn't exist - it's supposed to be fun - not an exercise in existential angst.

First time poster (I think) looooong time lurker.

I got into GW about 23 years ago with Heroquest and started collecting fantasy a bit after, got out of it when Necrons were released (was reading WD, just closed it and said no), got back in about 8 years ago after finding my old IG codex and decided to make a go of it now I could afford what I wanted. In that time I've spent a few hundred direct, a couple of grand on discount mail order and the same on second hand ebay. I love the fluff and the IP (though I feel they're dangerously over-simplifying some of it).

The usual things like the price rises, GW's inexplicable business practices, shedding the old studio staff (esp. Priestley which I only just heard about) and the perpetual rubbishness of WD have annoyed me as they have many but I kept buying GW though they increasingly had to share the money with other companies. But finally one straw broke the camel's back and I'm done with them.

At Christmas, having decided to one shot my 24th army and 8th chapter of marines I went into the local GW and bought a space marine megaforce, though I knew I could get it for £30 off I thought it would be good to support that store (I don't play there because of cheating munchkins with unpainted armies of the month and I don't have a relationship with any of the staff). The assistant asked me if I wanted a bag for my not insignificant purchase and when I replied in the affirmative he said it was 10p or 20p or whatever it was. I didn't have any change having just given him all my money so I just carried it which was a pain with my other bags of people's presents.

That one act of meanness on their part to not give someone buying such a big-ticket box a bag to carry it in has bothered me so much that it has sometimes actually spoiled my enjoyment of the models (scoff if you will, it's true). In any other store where I would have bought a similarly priced product I could have negotiated a discount and received much better service.

I have vowed not to give another penny to the corporation who are trying to ruin my beloved hobby, the best thing that can happen IMO is that GW contracts back to the company it used to be, the one that deserved their success. The worst thing would be this apparently incompetent (according to stock figures if nothing else) upper management to bring the whole company down with them and strangle access to the IP.

Until then all of my hobby money is going on MTG, FFG, Mantic, Spartan et al.

Bag tax may not be GWs doing. It is the next big thing for curbing pollution so many places cannot legally give you bags for free without paying a bag tax. Stores cannot pay taxes for consumers. In my area, I can't get a bag period from many of my stores and those who have bags must charge. It is carry reusable bags or walk out with everything stuffed in your arms or pockets.

nkelsch wrote:
Bag tax may not be GWs doing. It is the next big thing for curbing pollution so many places cannot legally give you bags for free without paying a bag tax. Stores cannot pay taxes for consumers. In my area, I can't get a bag period from many of my stores and those who have bags must charge. It is carry reusable bags or walk out with everything stuffed in your arms or pockets.

So just give your customers a 10p "discount" on the box...

No round here they give you a bag everywhere else, but a 10p free gift would go further than they'd think.

And there's a hell of a lot less plastic in the bag than in the half pound of sprues.

 Sigvatr wrote:

nkelsch wrote:
Bag tax may not be GWs doing. It is the next big thing for curbing pollution so many places cannot legally give you bags for free without paying a bag tax. Stores cannot pay taxes for consumers. In my area, I can't get a bag period from many of my stores and those who have bags must charge. It is carry reusable bags or walk out with everything stuffed in your arms or pockets.

So just give your customers a 10p "discount" on the box...

legally in my area, they are not allowed to.

Retailers cannot pay taxes for consumers. It is illegal here. Besides, why should retail stores suffer for the laws made by the politicians we elected in? All retailers are oppressed equally. I can get angry or carry a reusable bag when shopping or pay my tax.

That's not the case here though, I didn't buy it in America I bought it in Glasgow, every retailer can give you all the bags you want and happily give you extra ones if you need them. I realise they pollute and i make every effort to avoid taking a polythene bag (it is the norm to just be given one without asking) and I carry reusable bags in different sizes. As I said it was Christmas and all my bags were full and more besides. In a country with no bag tax, (which GW know fine well as it's the same one they're based in) most retailers (in fact absolutely all other retailers without exception) would try and increase the customer's convenience by giving you a bag, there's also no such charge for their smaller bags so it makes even less sense.

I enjoy sex.
Until recently I paid for sex from Candy the hooker.
She frequently treated me badly and raised her prices on a whim.
If I complained about increases her pimp beat me into compliance.
I now pay for sex with my wife
Her prices are amazingly consistent.
She also makes me food and irons my shirts.
I still enjoy sex; just not with Candy.

I sense the end of this thread is near...

 Doomsdave wrote:
I enjoy sex.
Until recently I paid for sex from Candy the hooker.
She frequently treated me badly and raised her prices on a whim.
If I complained about increases her pimp beat me into compliance.
I now pay for sex with my wife
Her prices are amazingly consistent.
She also makes me food and irons my shirts.
I still enjoy sex; just not with Candy.

I LOL'd.

Also, 8 posts in 7 years? That's commitment to stealth!

 Doomsdave wrote:
I enjoy sex.
Until recently I paid for sex from Candy the hooker.
She frequently treated me badly and raised her prices on a whim.
If I complained about increases her pimp beat me into compliance.
I now pay for sex with my wife
Her prices are amazingly consistent.
She also makes me food and irons my shirts.
I still enjoy sex; just not with Candy.

Sooner or later she will raise her price and quit ironing your shirts, just a heads up.

I gave up on GW but kept playing 40K with the stuff I had and went into other games as well. Eventually, the general crapness of 40K and the openess & variety of other games moved me away from it properly. Slow process, but not one that I thought would have happened.

If I do play now, its a heavy scenario based and GM game with lots of weird stuff going on. I think its literally once a year.

 Doomsdave wrote:
I enjoy sex.
Until recently I paid for sex from Candy the hooker.
She frequently treated me badly and raised her prices on a whim.
If I complained about increases her pimp beat me into compliance.
I now pay for sex with my wife
Her prices are amazingly consistent.
She also makes me food and irons my shirts.
I still enjoy sex; just not with Candy.

Just wait 'til you break up. She'll suck your bank acount empty just like Candy sucked your dic...tionary out of words.

Haha, I haven't bought new gak from GW in over a decade.

Buy from your FLGS - You don't give as much money to GW, and you're keeping a local business, and presumably, gaming store you play at, alive

 stubacca wrote:
Buy from your FLGS - You don't give as much money to GW, and you're keeping a local business, and presumably, gaming store you play at, alive

Easy to say when you're only local seller of GW products is a GW... and was closed year ago.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 stubacca wrote:
Buy from your FLGS - You don't give as much money to GW, and you're keeping a local business, and presumably, gaming store you play at, alive

Easy to say when you're only local seller of GW products is a GW... and was closed year ago.

lmao, ok, good point well put.

I keep forgetting that I'm stupidly fortunate to have a FLGS about a 10 minute walk from my house, another stockist that just sells GW stuff 15 minutes walk away, a GW store and Worthy Painting about 15 minutes drive away, and then about another 6 GW stores within 30 minutes drive in local towns, not including all the local stores nearby too 0_o

nkelsch wrote:
Bag tax may not be GWs doing. It is the next big thing for curbing pollution so many places cannot legally give you bags for free without paying a bag tax. Stores cannot pay taxes for consumers. In my area, I can't get a bag period from many of my stores and those who have bags must charge. It is carry reusable bags or walk out with everything stuffed in your arms or pockets.

Any excuse is better then none.

I forget how fortunate I am to have 2 FLGS with ample play space within 10 minutes of my home.

Complete truth - GW gives no single thought for us. This is all what they understand.



When they hear you crying or yelling about their new guidelines. This is what they look like.



After realising that if they don't do something, their business will end up bad. So they decide to sketch their future plan for us.



What hobbyists do..



...when they should be doing this.



Like it was going to change eventually, if every single time after prices going up we just accept it and pay more. Ofcourse they snitch more from us, when we keep accepting it...

I still love playing 40k and the Fantasy counter part of it, but I am getting to the breaking point of my patience to spend my little hard-earned money direct to the company.

So yes, I am going to continue to play the game, but I am going to go through Second-hand channels to get the most I can (Paints, Minis, books, what I can) and play another game like Warmachine or so on so I do not have to give up entirely on the hobby.

I am willing to play the game as i love the fluff and game it's self, though the direction the game seems to be going isnt doing great things for me.

I am more tempted to buy small forces and play Kill team, custom scenarios and the likes.

And more importantly buy second hand.

 kronk wrote:
I forget how fortunate I am to have 2 FLGS with ample play space within 10 minutes of my home.

My FLGS with GW and game tables is 1.9 miles away from my front door.

 Byte wrote:

 kronk wrote:
I forget how fortunate I am to have 2 FLGS with ample play space within 10 minutes of my home.

My FLGS with GW and game tables is 1.9 miles away from my front door.

My GW is about 7 miles away, but my FLGS is about 27.9 miles away. Not that I am going to mind driving to the FLGS a whole lot.

I play WHFB.

My army is mantic.
My rule and army book come via other sources.

I stopped playing 40k. So did most of the gamers I know in the area. Most have moved to other games and used the ebay proceeds to fun this move.

As much as I play their games, as I love the settings, and I enjoy the communities at my local game store, I don't buy GW products. I convert or manufacture my own miniatures to use to play their games. I've been playing their games since '95, including 40k, Fantasy, Blood Bowl, and Mordheim, and I've seen the volume and quality of their support for the game and hobby aspects of their merchandise drop dramatically, while the cost for their products has increased. I find I really enjoy finding alternative ways to represent miniatures for Games Workshop games instead of paying their exorbitant prices.

Additionally, their practices in regards to their franchise have become increasingly profit-motivated through the years. My preference, as I assume most hobbyists would prefer, would be that the Games Workshop staff work to support and refine the quality of their game systems, miniatures, and hobby products, resulting, incidentally, in an enthusiastic and loyal consumer base. Instead, their design work, marketing, and business practices are directly profit-motivated, which I find grating.

As an example, consider White Dwarf Magazine. White Dwarf is effectively a product catalog. Buying one, to me, is analogous to paying to watch television advertisements. The vast majority of the magazine merely outlines newly-available, expensive models, interspersed with pointless interviews with self-obsessed Games Workshop staff. The magazine wasn't always this way. Below is a list of some of the features the magazines used to include, which I found appealing:

Mini games

Art posters (as opposed to product posters)

Add on games components (miniatures, character cards, spell cards, equipment cards, maps, cardboard terrain etc.)

Scenario rules

Campaign rules

Fiction

Detailed modeling project guides (terrain building, etc.)

As another example, consider the way the rules for their games are progressively altered in order to sell more miniatures. This does not improve the games, and, in fact, often makes them worse. Rules should be altered to make a game system more appealing, exciting, balanced, elegant, interesting, easy to learn, quick to play, etc. These latter sorts of changes result in a better game, which incidentally ought to draw more customers, and therefore more business.

In the end, GW makes decisions based on what's best for the company, but there ought to be a symbiotic relationship between GW and it's customer community. They see their numbers, and their decisions must be working out, but I have a niggling suspicion that they are inevitably undermining their own market. I make this assumption, because there must be other hobbyists out there like me. I play their games; I've been playing them for almost 20 years, but I won't give them another cent.

The part that has my mates and I buying ONLY ebay and overseas, and ignoring WD from here on is simple,
IT NEVER USED TO BE THIS WAY..
GW made more profit and grew a business from a little fanbase to a superstore by giving quality AND quantity for money,
IE White Dwarfs 'back in my day' gave not only the adds for new products, but a free novella or two.. or three (they make you buy those now?),
extra rules for all games not just the main two/three (death from above? really? 10 yrs ago they gave you a 4 page lift out for free..)
They also had AN ENTIRE battle report, not these 'this is what happened during turn 1-4' Bullswipe.
And when Necrons first came out, you bet you the rules were free.... and they even gave pictures of upcoming models releases months ahead while they were still putty and cuttings
And this is al during their growth period... which we all know is ended... it's the same for models..
Does anyone recall 'The Trolls cave'.. hint-they weren't a third party.. in fact they gave regular deals in the last few pages of WD every month..
All in all, I've been watching these shenanigans for some time and have remained LOYAL AS HELL through it... but not any more.
Fifteen!! years of solid loyalty to be fethed around by a company asked for more and giving less consistently, in fact doing worse than that if possible...
We love the game, I love the lore... but it's just too much, the joy the game gives is not worth the frustration you feel walking into or out of the stores (FWLG or GW) once you find out about there latest changes that purposefully distance the player from the industry, if not the game...

And no, third party games don't interest me, nobody I know plays them, and I'm not interested in making friends with those caricatures of 'still living with mom' basement nerds...
So my mates and I had a few drinks the other day and made a pact.. we have enough models, we've paid enough money, its time we all stop playing GW's mindgames and refuse to coff up.. it's the only way they'll learn the error of there ways....
Join us fellow nerds, curb your crack addiction for the next two years +, they'll either play ball or go bust.. we don't care anymore which.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I enjoy sex.
Until recently I paid for sex from Candy the hooker.
She frequently treated me badly and raised her prices on a whim.
If I complained about increases her pimp beat me into compliance.
I now pay for sex with my wife
Her prices are amazingly consistent.
She also makes me food and irons my shirts.
I still enjoy sex; just not with Candy.

Love this part, except, imagine if you will the local pimp just got a hold of your wife and now jacks her charges up, and makes you pay extra for ironing... along with the consultation charges for how you want them ironed... even though the previous arrangement worked fine

 Byte wrote:
GW isn't going anywhere. The haters will come and go.

If it does, please understand I'm going to sig this. No offense.

I'll probably continue to support my FLGS. While it sucks that prices have jumped quite a bit, I have been rather happy with some of the new kits GW has released. Considering that most of the folks I play with now and have played with in the last couple years pretty much have most of the models they want for their armies. They don't go out any purchase new versions of the same models because why should they? Unless they really like how the new stuff looks there really is no reason to. Unless GW releases something new for them to pick up then the folks around here aren't going to purchase new stuff. GW is a business and part of being a business is bringing in money. To do this they have released a new edition of 40k, 5 codexes for 40k, 3 for Fantasy (Not sure on that one) and a bunch of new models. Folks complain that the games keeps changing or that GW keeps bringing out new stuff that you need to get to keep your army in tip top shape. Well of course they do, otherwise who the hell would buy their stuff?

 Byte wrote:
GW isn't going anywhere. The haters will come and go.

I think many people see GW not 'going anywhere' as being a big part of the problem.. but perhaps not in the sense that you have intended !

 Pacific wrote:

 Byte wrote:
GW isn't going anywhere. The haters will come and go.

I think many people see GW not 'going anywhere' as being a big part of the problem.. but perhaps not in the sense that you have intended !

I know I do

grumpusbumpus wrote:*Lots of great stuff.*

Great post; I completely agree with everything you've said.

 grumpusbumpus wrote:
As much as I play their games, as I love the settings, and I enjoy the communities at my local game store, I don't buy GW products. I convert or manufacture my own miniatures to use to play their games. I've been playing their games since '95, including 40k, Fantasy, Blood Bowl, and Mordheim, and I've seen the volume and quality of their support for the game and hobby aspects of their merchandise drop dramatically, while the cost for their products has increased. I find I really enjoy finding alternative ways to represent miniatures for Games Workshop games instead of paying their exorbitant prices.

Additionally, their practices in regards to their franchise have become increasingly profit-motivated through the years. My preference, as I assume most hobbyists would prefer, would be that the Games Workshop staff work to support and refine the quality of their game systems, miniatures, and hobby products, resulting, incidentally, in an enthusiastic and loyal consumer base. Instead, their design work, marketing, and business practices are directly profit-motivated, which I find grating.

As an example, consider White Dwarf Magazine. White Dwarf is effectively a product catalog. Buying one, to me, is analogous to paying to watch television advertisements. The vast majority of the magazine merely outlines newly-available, expensive models, interspersed with pointless interviews with self-obsessed Games Workshop staff. The magazine wasn't always this way. Below is a list of some of the features the magazines used to include, which I found appealing:

Mini games

Art posters (as opposed to product posters)

Add on games components (miniatures, character cards, spell cards, equipment cards, maps, cardboard terrain etc.)

Scenario rules

Campaign rules

Fiction

Detailed modeling project guides (terrain building, etc.)

As another example, consider the way the rules for their games are progressively altered in order to sell more miniatures. This does not improve the games, and, in fact, often makes them worse. Rules should be altered to make a game system more appealing, exciting, balanced, elegant, interesting, easy to learn, quick to play, etc. These latter sorts of changes result in a better game, which incidentally ought to draw more customers, and therefore more business.

In the end, GW makes decisions based on what's best for the company, but there ought to be a symbiotic relationship between GW and it's customer community. They see their numbers, and their decisions must be working out, but I have a niggling suspicion that they are inevitably undermining their own market. I make this assumption, because there must be other hobbyists out there like me. I play their games; I've been playing them for almost 20 years, but I won't give them another cent.

Great post.

GW HAVE CHEAPER UNITS!!

Tau Battlesuits are now £40 for three, instead of originally £15 for one!

See, they really do care about us