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Sean, as usual, is correct.

Playing 40k makes GW no money at all. It could be the world's most popular miniatures wargame (er....) yet the company could still go under if everyone plays with proxies or second hand miniatures.

However, the miniatures are the reason the game is popular. And the active online community, whilst growing, is still a surprisingly small proportion of those engaging with the game and with GW. That's why these silly embargos never have any effect.

R.

I would argue that the game is popular, because the game is popular...not because of the miniatures themselves (though they are a factor for some people).

However, if you read a lot of these sorts of discussions, you tend to see more comments regarding people having ready opponents rather than more people liking the aesthetics or any other aspect of GW games.

This is more important for new players as opposed to those with established game groups and familiarity with game concepts (like proxying models or adjusting scales for rules).

There is sort of a critcal mass that will happen within each community of gamers, and when that is reached (or dropped below) a game will take off or die for new players and those with weak game group connections.

Again though, I dont see old versions of rules impacting the critical mass for new product sales. I have seen it ressurect long OOP games though, when a core group plays classic rules and it gets some new blood interested in those rules.

Bit of a tangent though I guess.

I like 40k and I want to play it, but it feels like GW doesn't really want me to. Warmachine, Malifaux etc. look alright, but I just don't seem to find them as fun.

But there are ways to play it without GW thankfully.

This is kinda discouraging to hear about GW like this when I am just getting into the game, but I wanna support my LGS cause the owner is prob gonna let me borrow his eldar army (instore only)so I can get used to the game w/o having to proxy. That and he know that the more interested I am in the game, the longer his lights stay on. Mebbe GW should take a tip from this guy...Have premade armies ready for people to borrow and get used to armies and how they function can only mean satisfaction and higher revenue for them...so long as a worker is present at all games that have borrowed merchandise in them XD.

GTKA666 wrote:
This is kinda discouraging to hear about GW like this when I am just getting into the game, but I wanna support my LGS cause the owner is prob gonna let me borrow his eldar army (instore only)so I can get used to the game w/o having to proxy. That and he know that the more interested I am in the game, the longer his lights stay on. Mebbe GW should take a tip from this guy...Have premade armies ready for people to borrow and get used to armies and how they function can only mean satisfaction and higher revenue for them...so long as a worker is present at all games that have borrowed merchandise in them XD.

They used to do that. The reason they changed it: "If they can use the store armies, why would they bother to get their own?" Tada! And now they don't.

And I'm sure your FLGS has more than just Warhammer to collect, paint and play.

im finished eith 40k been playing the new Arkham city miniatures game its pretty awesome

< Taken by the void dragon. >

I don't play games that much anymore, more due to time than anything else, and I certainly buy less than I used to, much less in fact, but honestly I don't get the...well, rage that some people seem to have adopted.

GW aren't an abusive former spouse guys, they're a company that make a product, and if you disagree with the direction they take that product or their business practices, you're perfectly within your rights to stop giving them your money, and even feel justifiably disappointed that something you enjoyed is being mismanaged. But the way some people seem to take spiteful joy in their every misstep and wish they would collapse as a company is beyond the pale IMO, if for no other reason than you're essentially hoping that lots of people with no control over the direction of the company are going to lose their livelihoods.

 precinctomega wrote:
I gave up playing 40k a while back - not from any sense of outrage, but just out of apathy and the discovery that there are much better gaming experiences to be had elsewhere.

I still buy GW. Sometimes just for a painting project. Sometimes for minis top use with other games. And I still enjoy 40k lore and fiction. I really enjoy the Fantasy Flight RPGs, Space Hulk, Death Angel and other non-core Games.

But I can't really be fussed with the 40k game anymore.

R.

Pretty much the same. There are many better games than Warh40K - one of them is Infinity. I still read books and paint models for fun, but I see no reason to play the game anymore.

I gave up 40k somewhere in the middle of 5th. I still play fantasy but even that is simply because I have the models for it. I've started watching what I buy and doing everything I can to spend money everywhere but GW. I still pick up the occasional thing from them but they are down to ~10% of my hobby budget from about 90% this time last year.

*waits for the cavalcade of posters to come in and tell us that even thinking about 40K is still supporting GW*

Whilst I will still continue to buy the Heresy books, and slowly add to my 'Nids, I certainly feel the heart is going from GW. I'm lucky enough to have GW store within 5 minutes walk, and have spent thousands there over the years, even continuing to do so when cheaper online stores arrived, to support the shop. But the last few managers, all great guys, have come and gone, realising after a year that the living wage they could be receiving is going in part to dividends and (comparatively) vast board salaries.

In my personal experience, this is just what happens when many different types of company become large enough to support an upper management layer which does nothing other than shove the money around. All the value added stuff goes (as in this example, with their forums, and atricles, content in WD, Apoc pdfs etc, the website now is just a shop, it used to be a lot more), frontline staff struggle on but many that care more about the product and service than how big their car is, lose heart and move on .

The company also stops listening to feedback or criticism, because the money outweighs any opinion. The last manager at my local store said precisely that, the regional guy is clearly running scared of the next level up, who want costs down and sales up and are absolutely 100% unconcerned about anything else whatsoever.

Sad. but probably inevitable.

I've noticed that the most militant haters all seem to already own insanely vast amounts of models anyway, as the great love seems to lead to the greatest hate, so surely they actually can give up lining GWs pockets and still play anyway?

They just need to practice self discipline and not buy any shinies when GW makes new releases.

For myself, I've bought feth all for a while.. went halves on DV a while back, and that's it. I vowed when I got started back into the hobby Id only play SM and not go nuts, and I find it easy to stick to, considering I still haven't got anywhere near painting them all yet anyway.

I think if you put in a modicum of effort, you can easily cut your spending down to under £50 a year and still happily play 40k as long as you aren't brand new to the hobby.

Anyway, that's what i've done. I reckon I've done less than a £100 in the last 2 or 3 years, and I don't struggle to get a game in, I think the average game size is 1500pts, and the average player already owns about 4-5000 pts worth anyway!

 Yodhrin wrote:
But the way some people seem to take spiteful joy in their every misstep and wish they would collapse as a company is beyond the pale IMO, if for no other reason than you're essentially hoping that lots of people with no control over the direction of the company are going to lose their livelihoods.

GW's collapse is inevitable at this point. Whether they'll survive it or not is anyone's guess. I think at this point the moral thing to do is jump ship to other games, and encourage others to do the same. GW's going to fall, and if its consumers haven't switched over to supporting better companies in sufficient numbers it could take a big part of the industry with it. (FLGS relying on GW products for a large portion of their income, GW collapses under its own weight, the FLGSs go under, the manufacturers supported by the rest of the stores' sales lose a good chunk of income and experience dimished growth, then they collapse too.)


The really baffling thing about GW's behavior is that when they were a monopolistic presence in the industry they acted in a more normal, rational business model way, but as their competitors grow ever larger they start acting more and more like they're the only game in town, and are visibly suffering for it. Last year their profits rose 6%, following a ~10% price hike, the release of a new edition that radically shifted the paradigms of the game around, including putting a heavy emphasis on their most disproportionately expensive kits yet, ever decreasing production costs, and all around expense cutting. In this same year, wargaming as an industry increased by 20%. GW is losing sales and rapidly losing marketshare.

If I didn't think they were just bumbling suits trying to play 80's stereotypes instead of doing their jobs, I'd almost suspect they were trying to destroy the LGSs in an attempt to starve their competition while making the assumption that they could weather the crash and emerge a true monopoly.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
I would argue that the game is popular, because the game is popular...not because of the miniatures themselves (though they are a factor for some people).

However, if you read a lot of these sorts of discussions, you tend to see more comments regarding people having ready opponents rather than more people liking the aesthetics or any other aspect of GW games.

That's the reason I still have a 40K army; because almost everyone I've spoken to gaming about does, and I can use them anywhere*. If it didn't annihilate my potential to get a game I'd sell the lot off and invest in some other games. Once something else hits critical mass I'll be dumping the lot on ebay.

*There's no real permanent gaming venues here (though there's one opening), so most of my gaming is on the kitchen table or when I'm down by Warhammer World, which is obviously GW only (but that's fair enough).

 Yodhrin wrote:
I don't play games that much anymore, more due to time than anything else, and I certainly buy less than I used to, much less in fact, but honestly I don't get the...well, rage that some people seem to have adopted.

GW aren't an abusive former spouse guys, they're a company that make a product, and if you disagree with the direction they take that product or their business practices, you're perfectly within your rights to stop giving them your money, and even feel justifiably disappointed that something you enjoyed is being mismanaged. But the way some people seem to take spiteful joy in their every misstep and wish they would collapse as a company is beyond the pale IMO, if for no other reason than you're essentially hoping that lots of people with no control over the direction of the company are going to lose their livelihoods.

The rage is largely attributed to the amount of Love, time and money we have all put into this hobby only to be mistreated by GW.

And as far as Livelihoods goes, that didnt stop GW from nuking stores that supported the community.

Meh,
Lots of folks who have drifted from GW or grown tired of the price raises like to declare hard and fast rules about what they will or won't do. I don't see much value in making blanket statements about "Loyalty" to a game or company.

Folks can say that they aren't supporting GW by buying used, but it isn't really true. Folks buying used are often freeing up a GW buyer to buy more GW, and the strong market for used GW is part of the cache of of GW products. That is to say, GW products are are so well regarded that they have a strong resale value. Those buying from retailers at a discount are likewise still supporting GW.

For me, interest in other games and the high price of GW'ing means I play 40k occasionally, but rarely purchase anything new anymore. Still, I did buy the new rulebook, and when my armies are updated I'll probably the new codicies. Maybe even a unit or two and probably a BL novel from time to time. I pick up used figs from time to time.

I like 40k and it's universe, but I'm ok with it being a back burner and don't feel the need to define my relation ship with GW or it's game.

 Che-Vito wrote:

I'm glad that I don't support their products, and have taken ~$500 away from them by gifting numerous models to the previously mentioned friends.

That is like a Drug dealer saying he is fighting the war on Drugs by giving out free crack. Those previously mentioned friends are now into a game they wouldn't have been without your handout... and if you think they won't purchase future models as continue to play, you are crazy. Giving something away for free to get someone hooked is common for drug dealers. You just got 2 more people hooked to GW games and in turn, their products. Those two players may never have bought a dime without your help so you didn't cost GW anything, but with your help, you have pretty much guaranteed future sales to GW because of it.

Unless you play in a vacuum where no one can ever see you play and your friends never buy a single GW model ever, you have grown GW's business even while trying to stick it to them.

Actually, I'm actively reducing the amount of GW I own right now. Sold off my Tau, Dark Angels, and soon the IG I have as well.

Mostly it is time, I just don't have it anymore for painting or just about anything. Now I purchase as a hobbyist interested in SF models. It was really hard to let go until the price point just makes me have to think if I want to spend that much on something I really haven't got much time for.

I think the first straw for me was the crap treatment DA got in their previous book. Having to completely re-do an army I put a lot of time into and losing because the meta changed drove me away from playing and now I'm gone and on to skirmish games I have time for.

I still love 40k background because it is a place that literally anything can happen... and one day I'll purchase that Stormraven to convert into a more truescale beast, but I'm done with GW overall.

GW for life. None of thier new policies really effect me at all, so I'll continue to do as I have been doing.

Samurai_Eduh wrote:
GW for life. None of their new policies really effect me at all, so I'll continue to do as I have been doing.

Can you explain this more? What have you been doing that you'll be continuing to do? Are you not affected by the annual price increases? Do you buy full kits for bits? You leave us with a pretty vague statement here man.

Yeah, sorry for the vagueness, boss was snooping around. Anyway, I mean that I will continue to buy at my same rate as before.

I usually don't buy bits, as I find that the kits usually have all the parts I need. If I really need a particular bit, I'll just buy the kit, as I'm sure I will use the rest of it for something, but this doesn't happen often.

Annual price increases? Haven't been so much that it turns me away from buying. If I want it, I'll get it. plus, show me a company that doesn't increase the price of thier products. Does GW do it more than most? Yeah, ok, they do, but they do what they have to do to please shareholders like me. That's business.

Samurai_Eduh wrote:
but they do what they have to do to please shareholders like me. That's business.

That's the rub! Makes a lot more sense now...

I'm aware that companies raise prices, but few do so with such regularity that you could set your watches to them. I've only been into wargaming for like 2 and a half years, in that time a land raider has gone up 25 dollars, the cost of a codex has gone from 29 to 33 to 45ish to 60 dollars. Battleforces have jumped in price 20 to 30 dollars in some cases as well. Even small vehicles like drop pods, rhinos, etc... have gone up (albeit not as much) but it's still a price increase

In that time I've not noticed price increases with the other two games I play, Warmachine and Malifaux.

I stopped buying GW a while ago, mainly a mixture of the prices and that I liked none of the IG models so I went to alternative source to get models that I liked.

Been interested in Warhammer Fantasy but GW's actions these past few years has increasingly been putting me off from playing that game, plenty since I don't mind some of the models.

Warmachine is my core game these days, like Privateer Press better than I do GW.

That said, still play the Rogue Trader RPG and scraped together an army to take part on a 6th Ed 40K combat patrol tourney.

I enjoy the game, if I buy a new army its usually a mix of new and used and really does not cost that much.

Until they start charging me to roll dice I'll keep playing.

Samurai_Eduh wrote:
but they do what they have to do to please shareholders like me. That's business.

Other large companies also have shareholders, and mostly they are knowledgeable of their market, most shareholders are interested in long time investments, just not short time profits.

I blame my changing buying habits on DAKKADAKKA! So much interesting new suppliers in the news and rumors thread!

I've not played seriously for a fiarly long while now anyway but the way GW acts is no insentive to come back

but I'm not going to pretend I'll stop buying stuff I'm either interested in codex/book wise, or models I want to paint and/or convert or the new paints (some from a GW store becasue it's convenient and I want it now but most from 3rd parties or ebay)

I'm not certain these changes will make any real difference to GWs hold on the industry...

there were loads of rumblings/complaints when GW expanded into stores in the UK in a big way in the late 80s/early 90s, thus killing a whole load of independants, but actually they came out stronger in the end

while there are other TTG systems, some with decent player bases (and Magic & other CCGs) I'm still not sure many stores/distributors will be able to do much more than moan, and comply (or abandon the business)

Continue to play / buy at FLGS / second-hand...as usual...last thing I bought directly from GW was 1 pot of paint a few months ago.

Samurai_Eduh wrote:
Yeah, sorry for the vagueness, boss was snooping around. Anyway, I mean that I will continue to buy at my same rate as before.

I usually don't buy bits, as I find that the kits usually have all the parts I need. If I really need a particular bit, I'll just buy the kit, as I'm sure I will use the rest of it for something, but this doesn't happen often.

Annual price increases? Haven't been so much that it turns me away from buying. If I want it, I'll get it. plus, show me a company that doesn't increase the price of thier products. Does GW do it more than most? Yeah, ok, they do, but they do what they have to do to please shareholders like me. That's business.

And 51% of the company is owned by the same guy that gave himself a 20% pay increase last year.

 Ravenous D wrote:

Samurai_Eduh wrote:
Yeah, sorry for the vagueness, boss was snooping around. Anyway, I mean that I will continue to buy at my same rate as before.

I usually don't buy bits, as I find that the kits usually have all the parts I need. If I really need a particular bit, I'll just buy the kit, as I'm sure I will use the rest of it for something, but this doesn't happen often.

Annual price increases? Haven't been so much that it turns me away from buying. If I want it, I'll get it. plus, show me a company that doesn't increase the price of thier products. Does GW do it more than most? Yeah, ok, they do, but they do what they have to do to please shareholders like me. That's business.

And 51% of the company is owned by the same guy that gave himself a 20% pay increase last year.

Unethical from a business standpoint? Possibly. My problem? Not really.