Staying loyal to 40k, while divorcing GW?

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**WarOne**

Sean_OBrien wrote:

One of the nice things about having a trade account in an existing market is that they don't need to do any market research. If the store is selling over a specific dollar amount in GW products - they will drop a GW store the next block over. Customers will have to go there because of the various direct only, new release and other limitations that are being leveraged against independent suppliers.

The funny thing is is that GW is going to hurt themselves in two ways there; they can avoid that GW store down the block because you can buy exclusives from GW from their (*gasp*) internet store. People can avoid that GW store by going online, especially in the second case where disenfranchised buyers will avoid their stores like the plague.

Conversely though, GW is trying to create a brand image for itself as friendly (to children), an exciting hobby (to a gullible demographic), and something all your friends are doing because ah...look! We just released some new models! Look! Shiny! Your friends have four each, why don't you have any yet! GIVE ME YOUR MONEY!

In that context, GW can toss its clout and image behind the product and try to smother the independent retailers.

**Ravenous D**

really all that will happen is LGSs will just sell at a discount, until GW writes up the next agreement that bans discounts.

Ive been looking at the customer and business protection acts and its all sorts of illegal here, Im sure GW is still assuming no one will get off their ass and do something about it.

**Surtur**

Ravenous D wrote:
really all that will happen is LGSs will just sell at a discount, until GW writes up the next agreement that bans discounts.

Ive been looking at the customer and business protection acts and its all sorts of illegal here, Im sure GW is still assuming no one will get off their ass and do something about it.

The great thing about attacking Mom & Pop stores is that they aren't Mom, Pop & the Lawyer. These guys can't defend themselves and need some serious pro bono work done to get their rights protected.

**Ravenous D**

Hopefully someone steps up, it would be nice to remind GW that its not 1775 anymore.

**Herzlos**

Magc8Ball wrote:
Basically, the only thing I'm buying from GW at this point are the rulebooks, and I only buy THOSE when I'm finally ready to play an army in a tournament. I'm pretty sure their books are loss leaders, so I'm not really doing them any favors.

There's no way the books are loss leaders. Companies are making plenty of money selling much larger (and better edited) books for less money, so GW can't be losing any money selling them.

**Zond**

I buy the FFG RPG books now for my 40k fix. It's been working out well, haven't bought a GW model or rulebook in years.

**Welsh_Furey**

Im sick of gw n im not even in the same possition as you americans. I wont buy from gw at all only second hand stuff and to be honest im looking at getting away from gw models all together and use other companies models.
Nor am i the biggest fan of 6th ed which has lead me to getting into other companies rule systems like dropzone commander and urban war/ metropolis by hawk wargames and urban mammouth respectivly.

**Byte**

I pay full retail for my GW. At my FLGS. I have no advantage buying at my store other than giving them business and getting to get my hands on what I buy in real time(limited selection of course, I do order stuff through them as well).

I never buy retail bits, anywhere. I've never ordered any GW online.

My point is, do I represent a segment of other gamers? Should I get mad at my FLGS because they never discount? Should I rage?

**Motograter**

I like 40k the setting but the game is rubbish now a days so I play other games.

As for gw, least said the better

**TheAuldGrump**

Sean_OBrien wrote:

It is really simple math - really it is (though I would tend to agree with the other Auld Grumpy guy - some of the figures are a bit on the low side of things). The real kicker though is when you look at their stated goal of 700-800 stores and then you look at how many trade accounts they have with existing retailers...the last number which I found for the US was 823... Coincidence?

One of the nice things about having a trade account in an existing market is that they don't need to do any market research. If the store is selling over a specific dollar amount in GW products - they will drop a GW store the next block over. Customers will have to go there because of the various direct only, new release and other limitations that are being leveraged against independent suppliers.

Auld, Grumpy, and an O'Brien.

The Auld Grump

**Fafnir**

Haven't played 40k since last summer. The game isn't fun anymore, and GW's business tactics, prices, and poor quality releases of late provide no incentive to even collect their models.

I've effectively divorced myself entirely from GW at this point. Granted, I don't play or paint much anymore, since I'm kind of busy doing a lot of other work right now, but in the rare chance I do get for tabletop shenanigans, by gaze has shifted entirely away from GW.

If 7th edition were to come out and be something that I felt was actually fun and worth playing, I'd consider dusting off my armies and hitting the table again, but at the current prices, I wouldn't consider actually buying anything new from GW.

**WhiteDog**

On one hand I completly understand your feelings. I just intended to play 40k again, I live in Paris so there are 3 GW shop nearby, and I always thought 40k miniatures were too expensive, but the last time I entered a GW store I was astonished by the price (really, everything gone up).
I also tend to take some freedom regarding the law (like a lot of people in my country) which means when I have no money I usually download a digital copy of a book and buy it later.
I started playing in V3, played V4 and the start of V5 and I always bought rules and codexs (which is dumb because I didn't play V5 at all, yeah tyranids). I've seen White Dwarf gone from a 4 € journal to a 8 € toilet paper full of photos and commercial.

But, as I completly understand the pent up disappointment regarding GW over the years, I have a hard time accepting the idea that you can play 40k, love the lore and have fun reading BL's books, and not supporting GW. Isn't GW the company that created 40k ? In the long run, if we don't support GW, is it a possibility that 40k will eventually take a hit and disappear ?

Darkjim wrote:
Whilst I will still continue to buy the Heresy books, and slowly add to my 'Nids, I certainly feel the heart is going from GW. I'm lucky enough to have GW store within 5 minutes walk, and have spent thousands there over the years, even continuing to do so when cheaper online stores arrived, to support the shop. But the last few managers, all great guys, have come and gone, realising after a year that the living wage they could be receiving is going in part to dividends and (comparatively) vast board salaries.

In my personal experience, this is just what happens when many different types of company become large enough to support an upper management layer which does nothing other than shove the money around. All the value added stuff goes (as in this example, with their forums, and atricles, content in WD, Apoc pdfs etc, the website now is just a shop, it used to be a lot more), frontline staff struggle on but many that care more about the product and service than how big their car is, lose heart and move on .

The company also stops listening to feedback or criticism, because the money outweighs any opinion. The last manager at my local store said precisely that, the regional guy is clearly running scared of the next level up, who want costs down and sales up and are absolutely 100% unconcerned about anything else whatsoever.

Sad. but probably inevitable.

Really great post. I think exactly the same : it's normal behavior for a bigger company, especially in this time where only profit matter. It's dumb yeah, but if you think about it, most of the companies you buy video games from are exactly the same.

**Sean_OBrien**

WhiteDog wrote:
But, as I completly understand the pent up disappointment regarding GW over the years, I have a hard time accepting the idea that you can play 40k, love the lore and have fun reading BL's books, and not supporting GW. Isn't GW the company that created 40k ? In the long run, if we don't support GW, is it a possibility that 40k will eventually take a hit and disappear ?

Not really. The current GW was born in 1991. Before that, it was something different - and that is when most of the background for 40K was set to paper (though some has been expanded on since).

Should GW take a hit, 40K will not disappear...anymore than any other IP of any value has ever disappeared. It might stumble and cough about for a bit - but many things have become stronger after a company that was mismanaging them had fallen. With something like GW and their various assets it is even less likely than most that the settings would disappear. The tangible assets in the form of molds and machinery would be quite tempting for any number of companies or investors to pick up for a song from the bankruptcy liquidation sale, and they would be able to turn around and resume production without skipping a beat.

**Byte**

GW isn't going anywhere. The haters will come and go.

**Just Dave**

Games-Workshop lost me with 6th Ed. and their business practices, and it is nice to be rid of them tbh! Dakka and Black Library are my own connections to 40K universe I love, but I might stop purchasing from Black Library too now after their changes to their release policy.

**H.B.M.C.**

Byte wrote:
The haters will come and go.

Nice. Dismiss everyone's criticisms as being a 'hater'.

**Byte**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Byte wrote:
The haters will come and go.

Nice. Dismiss everyone's criticisms as being a 'hater'.

Does "disgruntled" or maybe "disillusioned" work for you?

**Azreal13**

Byte wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:
Byte wrote:
The haters will come and go.

Nice. Dismiss everyone's criticisms as being a 'hater'.

Does "disgruntled" or maybe "disillusioned" work for you?

Would work better for me, but I assure you, they're only going.

**studderingdave**

GW has a tight grip on a large demographic of gamers. So many people cling to GW because "they have so much money invested in it" and use that excuse to put up with bad rules and an even worse company to player/seller relationship.

5 years ago i took a leap of faith and dropped GW for Privateer Press. Now I do not even look back. I am not saying PP is the silver bullet, but they listen to the fanbase better and are more involved with the community. You do not have to like PP, but take a chance and venture outside of the realms of GW and you will prolly find something you like.

**orkboy2d**

i dunno what to do yet....
love my orkys , but finding the community in my local area shrink as far as 40k goes...

stopped playing years back and got back into it when 6th ed came out...

after about 8 months of playing 6th ed. cant say im 100% satisifed. its a freaking fun game to play.... but most times i play the game is slowed down by rules debates and Marine and IG players doing all they can to bend the rules so there so called "top tier" army doesnt lose to my WAAAGH!....

maybe time to shift to Warmahordes.

**Azreal13**

Just gonna throw Infinity's name in here, before the Warmahordes fanatics get all over the thread.

Haven't given up 40k, but won't be buying much more GW and will be focusing more on this in future.

Have a game of X Wing lined up for Monday too, which while not exactly a substitute, I have a feeling that will get a share of gaming time too.

**Amaya**

Are people not wanting to buy GW because they feel the price is too high or do they feel that their purchasing power has decreased?

Personally, I've always felt that the models were overpriced and only bought certain items new. The majority of my purchases were at least 25% under retail.

**Sean_OBrien**

Everyone will have their own particular reason for no longer purchasing from GW. For some it is the price increases, others it will be not liking the artistic direction which has been going through certain armies, still others will be issues with the company itself. I don't think you will really find a single answer to the question of why stop.

Personally though, I have taken the historical gamer's approach to sci-fi and divorced myself from using any one companies miniatures with any particular game system. I buy what I like, from who I like and I use those miniatures to play with any rules I like.

Sometimes we use Star Wars miniatures to play Infinity rules. Sometimes we use BSG miniatures to play BFG. Sometimes we use Stargate miniatures to play Necromunda... There is no reason to marry yourself to one set of rules or one miniature companies figures. There is a whole lot of variety out there which you can enjoy playing games with.

**Azreal13**

Amaya wrote:
Are people not wanting to buy GW because they feel the price is too high or do they feel that their purchasing power has decreased?

Personally, I've always felt that the models were overpriced and only bought certain items new. The majority of my purchases were at least 25% under retail.

Well, for me it's a perfect storm, I find the value GW offers going through the floor, I dislike the aesthetic direction the studio seems to have taken recently and I'm dissatisfied with the apparent disregard they have for any customer outside of those that they have decided they want to buy their products. Despite all that, I have no intention of stopping playing, but I don't play in a GW store, and, like Sean says, there are many other alternatives for obtaining minis.

**Amaya**

azreal13 wrote:
Amaya wrote:
Are people not wanting to buy GW because they feel the price is too high or do they feel that their purchasing power has decreased?

Personally, I've always felt that the models were overpriced and only bought certain items new. The majority of my purchases were at least 25% under retail.

Well, for me it's a perfect storm, I find the value GW offers going through the floor, I dislike the aesthetic direction the studio seems to have taken recently and I'm dissatisfied with the apparent disregard they have for any customer outside of those that they have decided they want to buy their products. Despite all that, I have no intention of stopping playing, but I don't play in a GW store, and, like Sean says, there are many other alternatives for obtaining minis.

Any specific models come to mind? There have several over the last two years that I found cartoonish and poorly designed.

@Sean, thanks. I didn't consider several of the aspects you noted.

**Azreal13**

Well, pretty much any large model since the Storm Raven! The smaller models haven't been so bad, but the whole range seems to be getting more action figure/toy and less finely sculpted embodiment of the far flung grim dark future.

You look at the quality of what Dream Forge or Mierce or any other number of small scale studios are doing, and compare the price, size and detail to what GW turn out, it's the big company that often turn up wanting. GW can still turn out something special on occasion, I do quite like the new Riptide, despite my comments, but don't play Tau, so purchasing it isn't even a question, but it's a loong time since they've really knocked me on my arse with something.

I have high hopes for the rumoured plastic GDs when they make an appearance, they might be enough to tempt me, but I already have two alternate models for a BT and GUO, and great options for a LoC and KoS, so they will have to be spectacular to convince me not to buy 3rd party.

**Sean_OBrien**

Plastic greater demon?

Doesn't get much greater than this guy:

http://www.reapermini.com/OnlineStore/demon/latest/14417

Coming soon in Bones. Actually, quite a few demons made it through their KS Campaign - and to be honest, GW's take on the demonic had always left me a bit unmoved. Some of their sketches were OK - but they never really managed to transition well into miniatures and looked more comical than scary things which want to drag your soul off to hell (or the warp as the case may be).

**Nucflash**

Amaya wrote:
Are people not wanting to buy GW because they feel the price is too high or do they feel that their purchasing power has decreased?

Personally, I've always felt that the models were overpriced and only bought certain items new. The majority of my purchases were at least 25% under retail.

I personaly think the game is boring to play. And compared to other games I have played over the years GW games tend to become a money pit. Many people I have known over the years have just bought models, but then just fallen through, and never played much. This is the general feeling I get from the GW games, people buy lots of models but they do not play the game. There are better and cheaper gaming systems that require less miniatures to play and have fun with.

I remember the feeling though when I first struck out into the Unkown. But after you take that first step and then look back you ask yourself why dident I do this years ago... Of all the gaming systems I have tried, Warmachine/hordes, Flames of War, Malifoux and a few others, GW has the worst rules of them all.

I personally belive that GW needs to die off, it has outlived its use, its time for others to pick up the torch and carry this hobby into the next decade. There is a really large world of table-top gaming out there, loads of companies producing really good games....

**JWhex**

Amaya wrote:
Are people not wanting to buy GW because they feel the price is too high or do they feel that their purchasing power has decreased?

Personally, I've always felt that the models were overpriced and only bought certain items new. The majority of my purchases were at least 25% under retail.

For me it is mostly that the price is too high for the quality and quantity of product you receive. There are some kits that I find to be quite reasonable and in line with other manufacturers. For example, the retail price of a box of plague bearers works out to about $3 per model for really nice models.

However, the price of their infantry that is in the special section of the army books is just stupidly expensive when you need to buy about 4 boxes for a minimally effective unit. The price of their larger kits and finecast characters is just so far beyond what I think is a reasonable value that I wont even contemplate buying them.

The price and quality of the codexes and army books I also find to be offensive. About the only GW product I buy now is army books and only then for armies I use at a tournament. I used to buy practically every army book as it came out for 40k and fantasy, now I dont even update armybooks for all the armies I own models for. Presently I own very large to decent sized collections of models for 13 40K and whfb armies. I forsee only buying updates for Imperial Guard, Vampire Counts, fantasy Demons and Lizardmen.

**jonolikespie**

Amaya wrote:
Are people not wanting to buy GW because they feel the price is too high or do they feel that their purchasing power has decreased?

Personally, I've always felt that the models were overpriced and only bought certain items new. The majority of my purchases were at least 25% under retail.

For me it is very much the price to value ratio. I have happily spent $100 on nice, 70mm models that are used for nothing other than painting, so price is not an issue, but the price for the quality I am seeing is not worth it. That $100 model is resin with absolutely beautiful detail, GWs $100 worth of models is 10 guys who are 'meh' quality.
As well the most recent releases seem to throw in large kits for no reason other than they can make them. The khorn cannon from the daemons release being a perfect example, they could have mounted the thing on a bloodcrusher but they didn't they HAD to make it bigger and on an oval base. Then there were the dino bots in the chaos marine release, if they had have redone their infantry in the same stly as the DV guys and new raptors I'd have been all over that, instead they have ended up with several items in the line being 'mutated marines', left the rest of the line as the outdated 'spikey marines' then tossed the dino bots on top.