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 Ravenous D wrote:

Samurai_Eduh wrote:
Yeah, sorry for the vagueness, boss was snooping around. Anyway, I mean that I will continue to buy at my same rate as before.

I usually don't buy bits, as I find that the kits usually have all the parts I need. If I really need a particular bit, I'll just buy the kit, as I'm sure I will use the rest of it for something, but this doesn't happen often.

Annual price increases? Haven't been so much that it turns me away from buying. If I want it, I'll get it. plus, show me a company that doesn't increase the price of thier products. Does GW do it more than most? Yeah, ok, they do, but they do what they have to do to please shareholders like me. That's business.

And 51% of the company is owned by the same guy that gave himself a 20% pay increase last year.

And all indications are that he is simply padding out his retirement funds by aggressively going after short term profits at the expense of long term viability.

Put me in the "buying 2nd hand kits" crowd. There really is no sane reason to go into a GW store and buy something off the shelf anymore.

 Yodhrin wrote:
I don't play games that much anymore, more due to time than anything else, and I certainly buy less than I used to, much less in fact, but honestly I don't get the...well, rage that some people seem to have adopted.

GW aren't an abusive former spouse guys, they're a company that make a product, and if you disagree with the direction they take that product or their business practices, you're perfectly within your rights to stop giving them your money, and even feel justifiably disappointed that something you enjoyed is being mismanaged. But the way some people seem to take spiteful joy in their every misstep and wish they would collapse as a company is beyond the pale IMO, if for no other reason than you're essentially hoping that lots of people with no control over the direction of the company are going to lose their livelihoods.

Actually, abusive former spouse isn't far from the truth given that I'm sure many people here have put more time and large amounts of money in to their little toy soldiers compared to their marriage.

But really, we all know GW is "just a company", but people are right to be mighty pissed off and angry when they have spent so much time and money on GW products. Even the idea "you're perfectly within your rights to stop giving them your money", sure, that's true, but if you're half way through an army you could be throwing away hundreds of dollars and hundreds of hours of time when you decide to quit. It's not the same as seeing a pair of pants you like that are too expensive so deciding not to buy them, it's far more invested than that and as such ends up much more personal and emotional.

Personally I still like GW games. They still provide a product that I want and I am heavily invested, so I'd definitely find joy ("spiteful" isn't the right word) in them getting a kick in the balls from their policies and having to adjust their business model to something more akin to what they were on their great rise to power in the 90s.

Samurai_Eduh wrote:
Yeah, sorry for the vagueness, boss was snooping around. Anyway, I mean that I will continue to buy at my same rate as before.

I usually don't buy bits, as I find that the kits usually have all the parts I need. If I really need a particular bit, I'll just buy the kit, as I'm sure I will use the rest of it for something, but this doesn't happen often.

Annual price increases? Haven't been so much that it turns me away from buying. If I want it, I'll get it. plus, show me a company that doesn't increase the price of thier products. Does GW do it more than most? Yeah, ok, they do, but they do what they have to do to please shareholders like me. That's business.

If you can afford to pay GWs prices, go for it. Support the company you like. You are one of few who can. I for one have school, food, and a girlfriend to pay for, and for the past week I have had all of $6.42 because of that. I only buy discounted GW product because I simply cannot afford the ridiculous prices GW wants me to pay when other companies use plastic that is just as strong with more detail at half of the cost (see any Gundam kit ever. You can throw those things and they won't break). Games Workshop's failing is that they are only thinking short term. How sustainable is their business with their current model? Can they continue another five years? Another ten? If they increase prices every year, then no. Even as a Shareholder, I'm sure that there is a point where you'd say "woah, this is too much." It may be that Stormravens are $200 before that happens, but eventually they will price you out of the hobby unless you're making well into the six figure range.

There are a few things GW needs to do in order to last more than a few more years. Only the most wuss of parents will buy their kid an $85 plastic model when that money could go to the mortgage or utilities or a car payment or a vacation. GW lowering their prices, accepting the fact that the internet isn't only for pirates and actually using it to promote their product rather than restrict it all to one site, and turning their business model into something sustainable for longer than the next three years will do wonders for their customer base.

At this point, I'm either going to purchase from my FLGS to support them or purchase stuff second hand. I see no reason, whatsoever, to directly provide GW with my custom.

I am quite fond of my FLGS and if it wasn't for them, I'd be on a "GW secondhand only" setting.

Where's the choice for "continue as normal"?

This is a pointless and absurdly biased construction. Have you considered politics or political polling?

If you don't like something, stop participating in it. Whining about it doesn't do anything except make you a whiner.

You're missing the point.

We all like 40k, its GW we dont like because they are making access to 40k difficult.

Its like if I worked for the car company that made your car and I kicked you in the balls every time you wanted to use it, you dont buy a new car, you punch me in the throat and carry on driving the car you love.

 McNinja wrote:
Games Workshop's failing is that they are only thinking short term. How sustainable is their business with their current model? Can they continue another five years? Another ten? If they increase prices every year, then no. Even as a Shareholder, I'm sure that there is a point where you'd say "woah, this is too much." It may be that Stormravens are $200 before that happens, but eventually they will price you out of the hobby unless you're making well into the six figure range.

There are a few things GW needs to do in order to last more than a few more years. Only the most wuss of parents will buy their kid an $85 plastic model when that money could go to the mortgage or utilities or a car payment or a vacation. GW lowering their prices, accepting the fact that the internet isn't only for pirates and actually using it to promote their product rather than restrict it all to one site, and turning their business model into something sustainable for longer than the next three years will do wonders for their customer base.

My dad said he sees GW crop up alot in the financial press, its typically bad news and I believe he even stated that the Financial Times considers GW a bad company to invest in.

You're missing the point. They are the same thing.

You don't buy 40k products without paying GW. You don't enjoy 40k without enjoying GW.

You're deceiving yourself when you make a distinction and create your own frustration.

If you don't like GW, drop them completely from your life. It's like anything else that you don't like in life. Wallowing in your own self-created grief is stupid.

The only useful thing that can come out of threads like this is learning who actually plays 40k, and who can safely be put on ignore since they don't actually play the game.

I am all for supporting the LGS. The problem is, they don't really sell a lot of used 40k stuff.

If I buy GW kits off the shelf, GW gets my money, and the LGS gets a slice.

The problem now is getting to be that even buying discounted kits locally, the prices are still a bit ridiculous.

Not to mention, due to local taxes, an advertised 20% discount is really only 12.5%. Not much. That makes a 15% discount from an internet seller who offers free shipping, a better deal. 2.5% isn't much, but if we are talking a 20% online discount with free shipping, that adds up.

The one thing I will continue to buy from my FLGS is Vallejo Paint and some modelling supplies. I will buy codexs from them if I plan to play that army or an update comes out for an army I already have.

But, unless I plan on updating my Tau when the new dex drops, I really have no need at all to buy models from my FLGS anymore. And I hate that because I know they need the business but I'm not going to buy something i don't need just to support them.

 Ravenous D wrote:
You're missing the point.

We all like 40k, its GW we dont like because they are making access to 40k difficult.

Its like if I worked for the car company that made your car and I kicked you in the balls every time you wanted to use it, you dont buy a new car, you punch me in the throat and carry on driving the car you love.

No... I had a volkswagon where the service center changed hands and began treating me poorly and did unethical things in regards to my car repair and tried to make me pay for things under warranty and then making me pay for recalled items.

I got a lawyer, contacted Corporate with all my evidence and sold the car and said I want a refund for the following service appointments and the rest of my warranty and provided documentation of the dealership's behavior. I got a new car and ended up getting a large amount of my money back for gouged service which should have been under warranty or covered by recalls.

I didn't have to resort to compromising myself or illegal behavior like you constantly advocate. If a companies business practices forces *YOU* to resort to breaking the law as you fall over yourself to still consume their product, then the problem is with you. I 'went without' and ended up finding a better brand and dealer who took care of my needs much better.

In your hyperbolic example, Yes... you get a new car instead of escalating to assault and breaking the law as you attempt murder by punching someone in the throat. But anything to be an internet tough guy right?

Also agree... Biased poll is biased. Everyone is selecting the 'YES' options mainly because there is no place to select 'Yes, continue as normal'

I've dropped GW since the price increase last year, but still am enthusiastically into 40k lore/fluff/stories. When I get new models or codex's I buy from independent retailers.

Though honestly I still buy directly from Black Library's e-books. Also earlier this year I bought the Night Lords conversion set directly from their website. I'm a bad bad boy....

 DarknessEternal wrote:
You're missing the point. They are the same thing.

You don't buy 40k products without paying GW. You don't enjoy 40k without enjoying GW.

You're deceiving yourself when you make a distinction and create your own frustration.

I disagree.

Its entirely possible to play 40K without giving GW a single penny or cent.

Models can be sourced second hand and the books the same or maybe borrowed from friends.

nkelsch wrote:


I didn't have to resort to compromising myself or illegal behavior like you constantly advocate. If a companies business practices forces *YOU* to resort to breaking the law as you fall over yourself to still consume their product, then the problem is with you. I 'went without' and ended up finding a better brand and dealer who took care of my needs much better.

In your hyperbolic example, Yes... you get a new car instead of escalating to assault and breaking the law as you attempt murder by punching someone in the throat. But anything to be an internet tough guy right?

So you didnt like your VW? I bet it was a Jetta, you seem like the Jetta type, but thats besides the point.

Its better to fight for what you love then just getting walked all over.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 stormwell wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
You're missing the point. They are the same thing.

You don't buy 40k products without paying GW. You don't enjoy 40k without enjoying GW.

You're deceiving yourself when you make a distinction and create your own frustration.

I disagree.

Its entirely possible to play 40K without giving GW a single penny or cent.

Models can be sourced second hand and the books the same or maybe borrowed from friends.

Or even hand made. Or re casted for personal use.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
You're missing the point. They are the same thing.

You don't buy 40k products without paying GW. You don't enjoy 40k without enjoying GW.

You're deceiving yourself when you make a distinction and create your own frustration.

This doesn't happen often, but I agree with Darkness Eternal on this. I might not like everything about GW the company, but when I enjoy 40k, I a enjoying GW. There may be varying degrees of how one feels about GW the company vs it's games, but to completely separate the two is not really possible.

If you "Stay Loyal to 40k" you have not "Divorced GW".
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 stormwell wrote:

Its entirely possible to play 40K without giving GW a single penny or cent.
Models can be sourced second hand and the books the same or maybe borrowed from friends.

Things bought second hand still had to be made by GW. As was said earlier buying 2nd hand you're reinforcing the perceived value of GW products.

Also, support isn't just direct cash paid. If you are playing GW's games, you are supporting them through free advertising. Every person who plays a GW game that is seen by another person is advertising GW. Maybe they don't get as much $ directly from you, but you're supporting them.

It's like a homemade t-shirt for a political party. You didn't pay the party for it for it, but they're still getting advertising from you and that is VERY valuable.

 Ravenous D wrote:


Its better to fight for what you love then just getting walked all over.

Tell me how that works out for you in court when you try to defend committing a felony assault as 'fighting for what you love instead of being walked over'.

I am sure that will also be a great iron-clad defense in piracy/copyright infringement cases too.

Are there any laws you don't advocate breaking as a solution to your problems?

I honestly think I am done with" THE HOBBY". I will play the video games and read some of the books, but that's about it.

I have a 2000 point CSM army that I made last year and will be selling it. I really love to paint and had a good time with it, but the cost and business practices are out of hand. I might buy kits to paint from now on but they will not be GW products.

I am not crying or bitching just stated my plans for the future. The only way I can voice this opinion to GW is with my cash. I just don't get them. I don't understand why they would rather make enemies then friends.

Kind of makes me sad to think that Dakka Dakka, a site that I come to daily wont be on my bookmark bar any longer.I have been coming here for about 3 years nonstop and lurked for a year before that. As I am a DCM member it wont effect DD at all but still kind of blows.

To show that I am serious any mod that reads this feel free to delete my account as this will be my last post. Sucks.

If GW somehow comes to their senses I will be back.....
Good night, and good luck.

Deaths

Eilif wrote:

 stormwell wrote:

Its entirely possible to play 40K without giving GW a single penny or cent.
Models can be sourced second hand and the books the same or maybe borrowed from friends.

Things bought second hand still had to be made by GW, and if you are playing GW's games, you are supporting them through free advertising. Every person who plays a GW game that is seen by another person is advertising GW. Maybe they don't get as much $ from you, but you're supporting them.

It's like a homemade t-shirt for a political party. You didn't pay the party for it for it, but they're still getting advertising from you.

Sorry mate, but I have to disagree.

You can easily say to somebody if they ask about the models either. "Get 'em off ebay." or "No they're non-GW models, you can get them from such-and-such a place."

I can see what you mean, but at the same time you can turn that 'free advertising' against GW in favour of a third party company.

 stormwell wrote:

Sorry mate, but I have to disagree.

You can easily say to somebody if they ask about the models either. "Get 'em off ebay." or "No they're non-GW models, you can get them from such-and-such a place."

I can see what you mean, but at the same time you can turn that 'free advertising' against GW in favour of a third party company.

Good Point. However...

Even if you play with proxies, you still have to buy the rules and codicies somewhere. Whether you buy them from ebay, bartertown, or the GW store, you're still buying and using a product produced by GW. Unless you resort to illegal means, you've still got to posess GW products to play the game.

Further, if any of your friends starts playing and buys GW product, then congratulations you just helped out GW!

DarknessEternal wrote:You're missing the point. They are the same thing.

You don't buy 40k products without paying GW. You don't enjoy 40k without enjoying GW.

You're deceiving yourself when you make a distinction and create your own frustration.

If you don't like GW, drop them completely from your life. It's like anything else that you don't like in life. Wallowing in your own self-created grief is stupid.

The only useful thing that can come out of threads like this is learning who actually plays 40k, and who can safely be put on ignore since they don't actually play the game.

I'm not enjoying Games Workshop. I enjoy 40k. Just because a company creates a game does not mean I have to like the company in its current form. I can play Warhammer 40k for the next ten years without paying a single dime for rulebooks, codices, or models. It really is not that hard. I've just stopped supporting them.

stormwell wrote:

 McNinja wrote:
Games Workshop's failing is that they are only thinking short term. How sustainable is their business with their current model? Can they continue another five years? Another ten? If they increase prices every year, then no. Even as a Shareholder, I'm sure that there is a point where you'd say "woah, this is too much." It may be that Stormravens are $200 before that happens, but eventually they will price you out of the hobby unless you're making well into the six figure range.

There are a few things GW needs to do in order to last more than a few more years. Only the most wuss of parents will buy their kid an $85 plastic model when that money could go to the mortgage or utilities or a car payment or a vacation. GW lowering their prices, accepting the fact that the internet isn't only for pirates and actually using it to promote their product rather than restrict it all to one site, and turning their business model into something sustainable for longer than the next three years will do wonders for their customer base.

My dad said he sees GW crop up alot in the financial press, its typically bad news and I believe he even stated that the Financial Times considers GW a bad company to invest in.

Yeah, though I'm not sure it takes an economics journal to see that. The company is going nowhere but down, and when it goes down, it'll go hard. They have no idea how to create a sustainable environment, and even if they do, they refuse to do it.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
You're missing the point. They are the same thing.

You don't buy 40k products without paying GW. You don't enjoy 40k without enjoying GW.

You're deceiving yourself when you make a distinction and create your own frustration.

If you don't like GW, drop them completely from your life. It's like anything else that you don't like in life. Wallowing in your own self-created grief is stupid.

The only useful thing that can come out of threads like this is learning who actually plays 40k, and who can safely be put on ignore since they don't actually play the game.

I like warhammer.

I Dislike GW.

I exist.

Your logic is flawed.


I can understand that GW made warhammer and I am enjoying something made by GW, but the GW that made it is not the GW selling it. No one is left from that time other than Jervis and the business has made radical changes in the past 30 years.
It is entirely possible to like the product but not the company selling it to you. I like Call of Duty 2 despite hating what EA have done to the series, I don't like companies like McDonalds using pink slime in their meat but I still love their fries. It is entirely possible to like something without liking the person that created it.

At this point I am heavily invested in the hobby, and I am not going to stop playing GW games because of this sort of thing, I will do everything I can to spend my money elsewhere though. A all or nothing mindset is simply stupit at this point.

And I don't actually play 40k at the moment but I do play fantasy, which still counts despite the title of the thread.

 Deathshead420 wrote:

To show that I am serious any mod that reads this feel free to delete my account as this will be my last post. Sucks.

Deaths

What does being done with GW have to do with being done with Dakka? That's just silly.

 Surtur wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:
Too bad kirby said he wants to open up 800 new one man demo stores.

I cannot imagine how much damage is done to the wargaming hobby by people walking into GW stores and seeing the costs.

This is exactly why I can't get my group of 10 or so friends to play. They think the models look really nice but spending $100 for a baneblade or $40 per ten plastic soldiers and they say no way.

 jonolikespie wrote:

I will do everything I can to spend my money elsewhere though.

This.

There's no need to boycott GW. Even buying their own products from an independent will hit their bottom line as they won't make as much margin on it. Look for alternate models, look at alternative games, but just do not spend a penny with GW directly. If there's a sudden spike in demand from the Indy channel coupled with a fall in revenue from the direct channel then it will send a message, as it will result in a minimum 40% drop in revenue, likely more. We can do that and still keep playing the game should we want to.

Alas, it won't happen because, as I've said before, uniting war gamers is harder than herding cats.

 Deathshead420 wrote:


To show that I am serious any mod that reads this feel free to delete my account as this will be my last post. Sucks.

If GW somehow comes to their senses I will be back.....
Good night, and good luck.

Deaths

A lot more going on Dakka than just GW. Relax dude.

I love the 40k setting, it's the reason I play, but more than that, I do actually enjoy the game.

That being said, I have no interest in accepting ridiculous GW policies and products. Their stupid supplements, 1-click bundles and the like annoy the hell out of me, but I don't have to interact with that. My FLGS offers one of the best discounts in the country, and is even comparable with US discounted retailers (considering we have a 20%+ "Not American" markup, that's saying something). I have no qualms supporting them, and playing with people I enjoy spending time with .

I actually like the changes in 6th, sans fliers, and am not a tournament player at all, my issues with GW are entirely corporate, and I have no interesting in supporting them directly. I've never purchased from GW direct, either at the one provincial store (been there a few times, unpleasent environment, would not recommend) or online, and my armies are supplemented by a fair amount of non-GW product, product which would preclude me from ever interacting with them directly.

I have no intention of stopping my 40k hobby, nor does my group; some dabble in Warmahordes and Malifaux, but that's a once-in-a-blue-moon thing, or on days which are not our gaming nights. However, all of us agree GW has some piss poor policies, and we avoid them as best we can. We enjoy the hobby and game in spite of GW corporate decisions, and sincerely hope their one-man store program, and other asinine policies fail completely, and result in the company being bought by someone with an ounce of business sense.

GW makes money off of us, but more importantly, our non-gw FLGS continues to operate. What is important, is GW is making less money off of us now than they have in the past. Their new supplements, and even new army releases don't arouse a lot of interest or attention. The Tau promise to be a big seller, but so much of what they're releasing has priced people out of purchasing much new product, and the design of many new models don't draw much interest.

I think that's quite indicitive too; most of us aren't hardcore, long-term wargamers. Two of our group were around for 2nd ed, 1 for RT, and most of us came in either in 4th or the end of 5th. We're all relatively new, we love the lore, the setting, the books and the games (most of us started with Dawn of War), but even we're tired of a lot of the stuff GW pulls, and their corporate direction. What does it say about the health of your business when the people who love your IP, and haven't been customers for terribly long are already feeling worn out, and while they continue to play and enjoy the game, so much of your new product goes ignored.

 Ravenous D wrote:
You're missing the point.

Of course he is. He's DarknessEternal. He's like a more aggressive SoloFalcon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
You don't enjoy 40k without enjoying GW.

That's bs.

nkelsch wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:


Its better to fight for what you love then just getting walked all over.

Tell me how that works out for you in court when you try to defend committing a felony assault as 'fighting for what you love instead of being walked over'.

I am sure that will also be a great iron-clad defense in piracy/copyright infringement cases too.

Are there any laws you don't advocate breaking as a solution to your problems?

Nope, because laws are for "the Man" and "the Man" isn't going to keep him down, by god.

DarknessEternal wrote:You're missing the point. They are the same thing.

You don't buy 40k products without paying GW. You don't enjoy 40k without enjoying GW.

You're deceiving yourself when you make a distinction and create your own frustration.

If you don't like GW, drop them completely from your life. It's like anything else that you don't like in life. Wallowing in your own self-created grief is stupid.

The only useful thing that can come out of threads like this is learning who actually plays 40k, and who can safely be put on ignore since they don't actually play the game.

That is so utterly flawed it's not even funny.

So because I don't like that GM is now owned by the US Gov. I should sell my 1987 Chevy Truck? NO. I bought it used. GM didn't get paid twice because I bought it from someone who bought it from them. (actually I'm like the 4th owner). I do my own maintenace, the dealer makes no money from me. Heck, I have to get most of the parts from 3rd party companies.

So when I buy a used 40k model on ebay, GW gets a cut of that? NO! When I buy a used rule book on Amazon, does GW get a cut of that? NO! When I buy vallejo paint from my FLGS to paint my used models, does GW get a cut of that? NO.

Thank you and have a nice day.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:
You're missing the point.

Of course he is. He's DarknessEternal. He's like a more aggressive SoloFalcon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
You don't enjoy 40k without enjoying GW.

That's bs.

If I had a cent for every time you guys have repeated this exact sequence of words has been posted on Dakka, I might well have enough for a single character model..

GW is a very different company from the one that existed in the 90's, early 00's. Nearly all of the development staff, sculptors, artists (in summary, the most important people) have gone, and in fact many have gone on to start other companies or create some great games in there own right.

It's therefore quite possible to love the company from that era, its products and games, and completely disassociate yourself from the GW of 2013, which is a very different beast. The badge on the outside is the same (although.. one wonders how valid it is, considering the 'games' now total a grand total of 3), but really, with a couple of exceptions, that is pretty much it.