I'm thinking of running Mephiston in my 1500 Ravenwing list, what are peoples experiences with him in 6th?

His role will be a big monster hunter and MEQ wrecker, freeing up my Black Knights to do other things. He's also enough of a threat to draw fire off my bikers, and with a Techmarine giving him a 4++ quite survivable.

Mephiston plus a troop choice will be a huge chunk of your 1500 point Ravenwing list. Not worth it IMO especally with Meph's problems:ap3, no invuln, no IC, delivery method.

Not hugely, I'm dropping the Land Raider Crusader with Banner Command Squad inside for him. While extremely hard to kill,I find having 165 points sitting inside doing nothing
extremely points inefficient, and whatever firepower not coming the way of the Land Raider is hitting my bikes instead. The LRC is also 260 points of unscoring which cannot contest, can die in a single shot, and is useful in only one phase in my turn, i.e. shooting.

Ravenwing shooting with the banner, while strong, is still overly reliant on a single phase. Optimising my list for all phases is probably better.

Mephiston makes my list both strong in assault and shooting.

The BA drop pod with assault squad will also be something the Ravenwing sorely need, which is reliable turn one anti-vehicle melta. Sure, it's quite an expensive unit to suicide, but having bikes do it is worse (unreliable with one shot, can't get 2d6 on turn 1, wasting salvo fire, suiciding a valuable scoring bike unit). The squad and pod can block LOS and movement, and soak fire which would be directed at my bikes.

Mephiston, on the other hand, is useful in three (psychic defence, Biomancy if the situation calls for it, and assault.) He can tie up units in assault and with I7, extremely effective for running squads down in Sweeping (the best way to kill units).

The list I run mitigates Meph's weaknesses: A PFG gives him a 4++ invuln, any TEQs will die horrible deaths to my three Black Knight squads, and the fact he can be shot at will hopefully draw some fire off my bikers. He doesn't need a delivery method, he has a jump pack.

His role in the list is to pick off the units my Black Knights and Sammael can't handle; which while admittedly rare include things like Dreadknights and Monstrous Creatures, especially Greater Daemons, which are huge threats to my army I find wasting my firepower on quite inefficient. Mephiston stacks up quite well against any Greater Daemon assuming doesn't get charged (It's quite easy to bubble wrap a single model) as he just needs to get one attack through, and he eats Tervigons and non-Iron Armed Flyrants for breakfast.

at 1850 I'd just take two Mortis Contemptors, but at 1500 no one really seems to bring flyers, only FMCs.

Don't switch out Mephiston's powers for BRB ones, he only gets to switch out for 2. Furthermore, without his generic combo, he's left being very weak on the attack, not to mention very slow.

Switching to Biomancy would be mostly situational; when facing assault armies that come to you, you don't really need the mobility but you could definitely use Enfeeble or Iron Arm.

He's still mastery level three, so he'd get to debuff, witchfire, and then force weapon. Still very strong. Losing the Str 10 hurts, but again it's not hugely important against some enemies.

He's still a beatstick, just be very aware of his AP3 weapon. He dominates MEQ but not better CC units. As mentioned, keep his standard powers cos for some silly reason he only gets 2 when he switches.

It's quite uniform actually, I don't think Marine psykers are meant to be rolling more than two. Njal knows 6 codex but rolls two, Ezekiel is M3 but rolls two. Severin Loth, on the other hand, is a special flower, but FW is FW.

Anything in TEQ should never get the charge off, considering he moves twice as fast and I can bubble wrap. Only thing he lacks is Hit and Run, however.

Alternatively, I could run six units of Black Knights. Hmm. Mephiston is cheaper in terms of money

Mephiston used to be a bully; now even more so. He'll completely destroy your average grunts, but as soon as he's confronted with a 2+ save or an AP2 weapon, he's going to have a bad day; and for his cost you really can't afford to let him have bad days.

 azazel the cat wrote:
he's going to have a bad day; and for his cost you really can't afford to let him have bad days.

This is the number one reason I never use Mephiston. Against Eldar, Space Wolves or Tyranids, Mephy has a harder time moving fast enough to get anywhere and can't do all his tricks even if he does get into a good combat. He offers no psychic defense and rarely increases the abilities of units around him. If he gets tarpitted, or just shot enough (especially by plasma and poison), he was totally wasted points. I don't like land raiders either (did you know you could get two really good tanks for fewer points?!) but I'd always prefer an LRC to one overpriced hit-or-miss character.

This sounds like a pretty good combo, actually. Everyone's harping on about his inability to take out TEQs but they're forgetting two things:

1) Both he and the Ravenwing are very manoeuvrable.
2) You already have fantastic AP2 ability in Sammael and the Knights.

If you're looking at Mephiston in a Ravenwing list and moaning about TEQ's? You're missing the point.

That said, you shouldn't plan your entire game around him as he IS just one man and can get tarpitted by big mobs and the like. Use him to counter any immediate threats to your other units, or counter-assault if your bikes get unexpectedly stuck in assault.

 tomjoad wrote:

 azazel the cat wrote:
he's going to have a bad day; and for his cost you really can't afford to let him have bad days.

This is the number one reason I never use Mephiston. Against Eldar, Space Wolves or Tyranids, Mephy has a harder time moving fast enough to get anywhere and can't do all his tricks even if he does get into a good combat. He offers no psychic defense and rarely increases the abilities of units around him. If he gets tarpitted, or just shot enough (especially by plasma and poison), he was totally wasted points. I don't like land raiders either (did you know you could get two really good tanks for fewer points?!) but I'd always prefer an LRC to one overpriced hit-or-miss character.

This is patently false. Did you not read any of my posts? Shadow in the Warp has a pitiful 12" range. Eldar is a slightly different proposition, but still extremely rare. Puppies will lose their schtick when the next codex comes out. Mephiston provides a 4+ deny the witch roll against the most common psyker, Librarians. He will never get tarpitted because I'm playing Ravenwing, and I decide where and when combats occur. If people are shooting at him, they are not shooting at my bikes, which is good. The reason I'm swapping out the LRC is a) Doesn't Score or contest b) Only useful in the Shooting phase c) can't take on FMCs.

Be careful of unfavorable matchups in assault as well.
Most enemy ICs with a 2+ save and an AP2 high STR weapon will cause issues.

Provided you just skirt around those assaults and beat face on the rest of the army, you should be OK

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

 tomjoad wrote:

 azazel the cat wrote:
he's going to have a bad day; and for his cost you really can't afford to let him have bad days.

This is the number one reason I never use Mephiston. Against Eldar, Space Wolves or Tyranids, Mephy has a harder time moving fast enough to get anywhere and can't do all his tricks even if he does get into a good combat. He offers no psychic defense and rarely increases the abilities of units around him. If he gets tarpitted, or just shot enough (especially by plasma and poison), he was totally wasted points. I don't like land raiders either (did you know you could get two really good tanks for fewer points?!) but I'd always prefer an LRC to one overpriced hit-or-miss character.

This is patently false. Did you not read any of my posts? Shadow in the Warp has a pitiful 12" range. Eldar is a slightly different proposition, but still extremely rare. Puppies will lose their schtick when the next codex comes out. Mephiston provides a 4+ deny the witch roll against the most common psyker, Librarians. He will never get tarpitted because I'm playing Ravenwing, and I decide where and when combats occur. If people are shooting at him, they are not shooting at my bikes, which is good. The reason I'm swapping out the LRC is a) Doesn't Score or contest b) Only useful in the Shooting phase c) can't take on FMCs.

If this is your disposition, why bother posting? You are very hostile to people who disagree with you. If you don't care to hear other opinions, don't ask questions or engage debate.

A) He provides nothing against anything from Biomancy, Divination or most Codex powers. You only get to Deny Maledictions or Witchfire, which are far less common or worrisome, and he only provides a 6" bubble of protection anyway.

B) SitW only has a 12" range, but Mephiston's main goal is to get into combat. Tyranids won't usually be shutting down Wings, but they will be able to affect his CC powers. Also, if you see a non-bubble wrapped Tervigon, congrats. Maybe you should expect them to be surrounded by fearless wound soaking Gaunts, though.

C) Who cares when or if Rune Priests will lose their 4+ nullifications? They have it NOW, and that's what matters. That's what is being discussed. Not some assumed reality that is at least a year away.

D) If you are so positive that you and only you decide when are where combats happen, then have at it. The reality is that your opponents have far more agency than you give them credit for. You can be counter charged, you can have your target bubble wrapped, you can win a combat and get stuck out in the open for a turn. These things happen all the time; and truly, 12" isn't THAT far or impressive.

Mephiston is a rip off for 250 pts in 6th edition. Use him at your own peril.

He's still a beatstick, just be very aware of his AP3 weapon. He dominates MEQ but not better CC units. As mentioned, keep his standard powers cos for some silly reason he only gets 2 when he switches.

Mephiston is a rip off for 250 pts in 6th edition. Use him at your own peril.

People act like he was able to charge big, bad assault units or 2+ save models in the first place. The truth is that he was never able to. Meph was beat down hard by SS TH Termies in 5th, just as he is in 6th.

He has always been a character that has been more of a scalpel. People who think "he sucks" are those who see the juicy statline and think that they can just run Meph into another army without consequence.

Play him intelligently, and he is still a nice character. He provides self-contained counter attack for 250 points. Not bad at all, just not a world-beater.

Yes, he was able to in 5th. What game were you people playing in 5th? It was SS/TH termies he couldn't fight. But shooty terminators, oblits, all got denied their 2+ save and were just slaughtered by weight of wounds vs a 5++ save.

He had the old psychic hood in 5th, which made him a serious asset, as it was very hard to get him off the table. That's gone too, now. AND he has no utility with divination because he can't join units. If he could just join a unit, I'd use him as a divination monkey for sure. BUT he is nerfed in all these areas. He sucks, and all the hand waving and rationalizing won't change it.

Yes, he was able to in 5th. What game were you people playing in 5th? It was SS/TH termies he couldn't fight. But shooty terminators, oblits, all got denied their 2+ save and were just slaughtered by weight of wounds vs a 5++ save.

What kind of opponents were you playing against in 5th that were using Tactical Terminators? Oblits were pretty much the only ranged AT for CSM, so players had to target them long before Meph got there. And throwing Meph into 2-3 Oblits was a death sentence the next turn, as the other Oblit units could then fire TL plasma at him.

He had the old psychic hood in 5th, which made him a serious asset, as it was very hard to get him off the table. That's gone too, now. AND he has no utility with divination because he can't join units. If he could just join a unit, I'd use him as a divination monkey for sure. BUT he is nerfed in all these areas. He sucks, and all the hand waving and rationalizing won't change it.

No one except Wolves have a hood like that now. Get over it. It isn't like that is brought up as a negative to regular Librarians--why is it exclusively or relevant here? He will normally have a 4+ DTW anyway.

Why would you use him as a "Divination monkey?" Just take a regular Libby for that (or ally in a LV 2 DA one on the cheap). It just seems like bad ideas all around here.

There is no "hand waving" or "rationalizing"--Meph has a place. Players can still use him effectively. He is a T6, 5 wound, super small character with a 2+ save that moves 12". If you are smart, he will easily be worth his points. MEQ still fear him. He is still good counter assault for shooting lists. Is he a "must take"? Absolutely not. Then again, he never was.

 JGrand wrote:

He had the old psychic hood in 5th, which made him a serious asset, as it was very hard to get him off the table. That's gone too, now. AND he has no utility with divination because he can't join units. If he could just join a unit, I'd use him as a divination monkey for sure. BUT he is nerfed in all these areas. He sucks, and all the hand waving and rationalizing won't change it.

No one except Wolves have a hood like that now. Get over it. It isn't like that is brought up as a negative to regular Librarians--why is it exclusively or relevant here? He will normally have a 4+ DTW anyway.

Why would you use him as a "Divination monkey?" Just take a regular Libby for that (or ally in a LV 2 DA one on the cheap). It just seems like bad ideas all around here.

There is no "hand waving" or "rationalizing"--Meph has a place. Players can still use him effectively. He is a T6, 5 wound, super small character with a 2+ save that moves 12". If you are smart, he will easily be worth his points. MEQ still fear him. He is still good counter assault for shooting lists. Is he a "must take"? Absolutely not. Then again, he never was.

He's too damn expensive for such a fragile character too be honest... but then again, with those stats he wouldn't be reasonable for anything less. Ward hurt the BA quite a bit in that respect, making a lot of really ridiculous units but costing them in response. However, the army as a whole coheres far weaker than it did in 5th.

Mephiston was the go-to BA HQ in 5th.

I don't know, I killed plenty of oblits with Mephiston, and didn't have any trouble get shot at. Maybe because they were trying to stop ASM squads that still mattered in 5th. The ASM nerf for BA has had a cascade effect.

The psychic hood is more relevant to Mephy because he was a hood in 5th that was hard to get rid of. Now that it is a non-sequitur, that is another piece of utility he lost.

The regular libbies are there to be force multipliers, not beat sticks. They are less likely to be in 5th ed psychic hood range.

If Mephiston could join units, he would be great as a divination monkey. He could suck up challenges, use two powers, and still turn on his force weapon. And plasma could be LoS onto FNP flunkies.

I simply don't see how to get anywhere close to 250 pts of utility out of him in 6th.

Honestly, even if he was an IC I wouldn't be sold on him. Majority toughness would make him that much easier to start putting wounds on him and any psyker at that price is going to be tough to sell me on since their main utility has several ways to get countered. If 1/2 of his powers get nullified v Eldar and SW, I can't imagine him being worth what he costs.

I should add, I'd certainly TRY him if he was an IC, but I suspect I'd come to the same conclusion on him as I did on Death Company: when they fail, they are so expensive that your army is in a deep hole right off the bat.

True, his being an IC would just make me *consider* fielding him. But the toughness nerf would suck hard. He's just another in a long line of 6th ed BA victims.

The bottom line is that there are now many more efficient ways to scare meqs. Meqs are honestly only a consideration now because of commonality. I don't think they are even that great anymore, in general, due to lack of body count and lack of specialization.

If this is your disposition, why bother posting? You are very hostile to people who disagree with you. If you don't care to hear other opinions, don't ask questions or engage debate.

A) He provides nothing against anything from Biomancy, Divination or most Codex powers. You only get to Deny Maledictions or Witchfire, which are far less common or worrisome, and he only provides a 6" bubble of protection anyway.

B) SitW only has a 12" range, but Mephiston's main goal is to get into combat. Tyranids won't usually be shutting down Wings, but they will be able to affect his CC powers. Also, if you see a non-bubble wrapped Tervigon, congrats. Maybe you should expect them to be surrounded by fearless wound soaking Gaunts, though.

C) Who cares when or if Rune Priests will lose their 4+ nullifications? They have it NOW, and that's what matters. That's what is being discussed. Not some assumed reality that is at least a year away.

D) If you are so positive that you and only you decide when are where combats happen, then have at it. The reality is that your opponents have far more agency than you give them credit for. You can be counter charged, you can have your target bubble wrapped, you can win a combat and get stuck out in the open for a turn. These things happen all the time; and truly, 12" isn't THAT far or impressive.

I called you out because you clearly didn't read any of my previous reasons for using Mephiston. My Ravenwing has absolutely no problems dealing with most Eldar (rare) SW (not so rare) and Tyranids (almost non existent). Mephiston is there to optimise the list for Greater Daemon and FMC protection, and the side benefits are being extremely effective against things like Tervigons and to provide a reliable Str 10 cc attack in conjunction with RWGLs -1 T for instant death.

Have you played against a RW list before? A truly scary, optimised, 100 bolter shot in turn one list? Trust me, we do the dictating where and when combat happens.

In any case, suggest alternatives, not just negatives. I can run Rune Priests on Bikes.... but they aren't nearly as huge a threat as Mephi is. He's the equivalent of TombKing's 355 point Tzeentch Daemon Prince- looks bad on paper, absolutely wrecks face in-game.

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Martel732 wrote:
True, his being an IC would just make me *consider* fielding him. But the toughness nerf would suck hard. He's just another in a long line of 6th ed BA victims.

The bottom line is that there are now many more efficient ways to scare meqs. Meqs are honestly only a consideration now because of commonality. I don't think they are even that great anymore, in general, due to lack of body count and lack of specialization.

I agree MEQs in general, or Tac marines, are pretty terrible now considering the meta. Mephiston isn't here to scare tac marines; tac marines are not a threat to the list. He's there to deal with FMCs and Dreadknights, both of which are very prevalent in my meta, and free up my Black Knights to do other things like... killing tac marines.

wait a minute, you use an allied 250 point mini in a 1500 point envirnment? Just how bad do you think Dark Angels are?

I've put you on ignore, SoloFalcon, since you have never contributed anything useful to a discussion and I doubt will ever.

so sorry, Captain Unrealistic, I was merely wondering how you get a Blood Angels character into a Dark Angels army...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
yup. figures. Can't answer a simple question in order to clarify a puzzling topic...

i dont understand why people think that he is a fragile mini, hes got a better stat line than a carnifex and a heck of a lot harder to see in cover, and can move a lot faster. use him as such. I have a hard time seeing anything that can deal with Railguns better than a land raider as fragile? and for the indended purpose he would be great.

If it's FMC you care about, a stormraven is cheaper and probably better at dealing with them. The FMC can always avoid Mephiston because, well, it's a flier.

And I would hesitate spend 250 pts on a single model at the 1500 pt level.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Commander_Nightflier wrote:
i dont understand why people think that he is a fragile mini, hes got a better stat line than a carnifex and a heck of a lot harder to see in cover, and can move a lot faster. use him as such. I have a hard time seeing anything that can deal with Railguns better than a land raider as fragile? and for the indended purpose he would be great.

He's not fragile per se, he just doesn't bring much to the table for his point cost. Doesn't provide psychic defense, can't crack 2+ armor, subject to ID, can't buff units with divination. What exactly DOES he do, then? Kill meqs? Shoota boyz can do that.

 labmouse42 wrote:
Be careful of unfavorable matchups in assault as well.
Most enemy ICs with a 2+ save and an AP2 high STR weapon will cause issues.

Provided you just skirt around those assaults and beat face on the rest of the army, you should be OK

@ the OP +1 This

Also
He's fantastic at wrecking heavy support -
he's only one model, so he hides well.
He has a psychic jump pack so he's fast and should be able to avoid AP2 high strength characters.
He can make himself strength 10 for wrecking vehicles.
He's T6 so He can't be instant killed by shooting (short of apoc d-weaponry)
He's I7 so even if you do get into cc with a hard character, he'll probably go first. With str 10 and a force weapon.

I've seen him wreck other armies entire back line - and if they keep stuff back to deal with him, they aren't attacking you with it and he can just go kill something else.

He's a good character - as long as you pay attention to any ap2, 2+ opponants.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:

And I would hesitate spend 250 pts on a single model at the 1500 pt level.

I also agree with this - but it's your choice

Mephiston was the go-to BA HQ in 5th.

Depends. I saw plenty of good lists that just used a Libby or two. I also think the Sanguinor had a place.

I don't know, I killed plenty of oblits with Mephiston, and didn't have any trouble get shot at. Maybe because they were trying to stop ASM squads that still mattered in 5th. The ASM nerf for BA has had a cascade effect.

While I don't love Assault Marines, I also think that they can still be used to decent effect. The problems they have now are largely the same as they had then--limited shooting so they struggle with hordes, and they get beaten down by dedicated CC units. But this is a bit off topic.

In general, I found that opponents usually ran Meph into combat, killed a squad, and then died because he was out in the open. This is the reason why people cried that he was "trash." He isn't an "insta-win" character, but people see the stats and think so. He has always been a scalpel that takes good play.

The psychic hood is more relevant to Mephy because he was a hood in 5th that was hard to get rid of. Now that it is a non-sequitur, that is another piece of utility he lost.

I don't see why this is exclusive to Meph. Libbies also lost the ranged hood. Meph is ML 3, so he has a great DTW roll, pretty much all you can ask for now.

The regular libbies are there to be force multipliers, not beat sticks. They are less likely to be in 5th ed psychic hood range.

Sure, all Libbies got nerfed. It sucks, get over it or play SW or Eldar.

If Mephiston could join units, he would be great as a divination monkey. He could suck up challenges, use two powers, and still turn on his force weapon. And plasma could be LoS onto FNP flunkies.

Yup, this is nice wish listing. It would have always been nice if he was an IC. He isn't. However, he is a Marine sized character with 5 wounds, toughness 6, and a 2+ save. He moves 12" and jumps over terrain. Reaching combat should be easy enough if you play with adequate terrain.

I simply don't see how to get anywhere close to 250 pts of utility out of him in 6th.

Say I want to make a BA list. I'll probably ally in some IG, because we are making a competitive Marine list after all. Let's take:

Lord Commisar-70
PCS-30
40 Guard blob, 4 axes-240
Vendetta-130
Griffon-75

Meph-250
4x10 Assault Marines, 2 melta, 1 power axe
1 Priest w Jump Pack

Aegis-50

Total: 1820 (play with 30 points)

I've got 45 Guardsmen and a character, some anti blob/hoard in the Griffon, anti-Drake with the Vendetta, 40 jump MEQ, and an Aegis. What Meph adds is some decent counter-attack. There are units that he can take on that the MEQ and GEQ either can't, or don't want to.

Obviously, this is one example/list. I'm also not saying that Meph is necessarily the best choice here. However, to say that he has "no utility/value" is ridiculous.

 Commander_Nightflier wrote:
i dont understand why people think that he is a fragile mini, hes got a better stat line than a carnifex and a heck of a lot harder to see in cover, and can move a lot faster. use him as such. I have a hard time seeing anything that can deal with Railguns better than a land raider as fragile? and for the indended purpose he would be great.

Yeah but who takes Carnifexes? And for that matter, he's almost 100pts more than a Carnifex.

The problem is that he has no way to deal with 2+ saves, and dies to AP1&2 weapons with ease. There are also certain combat characters which can just own him, and as a result he's really only any good for hunting down scoring units to bully.

It's not ridiculous to say he has no utility for his price. Because he doesn't. He's have awesome utility if BA armies got a free Mephiston with the purchase of 2 ASM squads.

You call it wish listing, I call it listing things that would make him not suck. But hey, he fits right in with all of the other BA HQs in the "suck" box.

It's not ridiculous to say he has no utility for his price. Because he doesn't. He's have awesome utility if BA armies got a free Mephiston with the purchase of 2 ASM squads.

You call it wish listing, I call it listing things that would make him not suck. But hey, he fits right in with all of the other BA HQs in the "suck" box.

Everything you listed about why he is suddenly "worthless" in 6th edition either applied in 5th or is not specific to Mephiston. He wasn't good versus Terminators before. It seems as though you happened to play with a bunch of players who were bad enough to use Tactical Termies, so I'm sure that there are other factors at play. You also had good luck Oblit hunting--again, good players just don't let you rip through multiple Obliterator squads with Mephiston.

Yes, his hood has been nerfed. All hoods have. For some reason, it's waaaaay worse for Meph than a normal Libby in your mind. He still gets a nice DTW save due to his high mastery level.

His cost is high, and you are correct to say that it is a bit too high. However, Meph has utility. He will still beat down your average sergeant/character in a challenge. He still kicks the crap out of MEQ. He is still toughness 6, 5 wounds, and has a 2+ save (which got better this edition). Meph has always folded to high ap weapons. Meph has always lost to bigger bullies in assault. Meph has always wished he could hide in squads.

I'm not trying to say that Mephiston is "zomg the most amazing character ever." I do think he has utility. I've already stated that for 250 points, he is a solid counter attack unit. He is fast enough and hits hard enough to be worth using in certain lists. I've even provided you a list that can work and that uses him.

There's really no point in arguing if you are delusional to think that he should come free with the purchase of two ASM squads. Hyperbole or not, you seem to want to play "woe to poor Blood Angels" in this thread.

Umm, no. I was joking about that. However, he's at least 50 pts too much, which means he's a no go in any list I'd ever build.

And yeah, the BA HQ choices pretty much are terrible now. Except for the divination monkey libby. How heroic.

Martel732 wrote:
How heroic.

Most HQs seem to be like that now. STW sucks :/

Has the OP even shown what his actual army list would be so we could evaluate whether a 250 point allied HQ would be worth taking in 1500 poi ts?

From what I've read OP is posting the equivalent of "lalala I'm not listening" so I'm not sure if his list would be worth commenting on anyway.

kinda what I'm feeling. its a huge expenditure of points to "boost" an undefeated list.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

 tomjoad wrote:

 azazel the cat wrote:
he's going to have a bad day; and for his cost you really can't afford to let him have bad days.

This is the number one reason I never use Mephiston. Against Eldar, Space Wolves or Tyranids, Mephy has a harder time moving fast enough to get anywhere and can't do all his tricks even if he does get into a good combat. He offers no psychic defense and rarely increases the abilities of units around him. If he gets tarpitted, or just shot enough (especially by plasma and poison), he was totally wasted points. I don't like land raiders either (did you know you could get two really good tanks for fewer points?!) but I'd always prefer an LRC to one overpriced hit-or-miss character.

Puppies will lose their schtick when the next codex comes out. Mephiston provides a 4+ deny the witch roll against the most common psyker, Librarians.

Puppies wont get a new codex till Tau, Eldar, Orks, C:SM, BT and Nids get a new codex, which is likely in 7th edition at which point psykers might work completely different. I dont think space wolves are going anywhere anytime soon so I wouldnt hold my breath.

Mephiston has a great deny the witch sure, but he cant stop useful powers at range. Who cares if you can deny psykic shooting attacks when your enemy is giving himself T9, EW, Twinlinked weapons, or invisibility.

Sinking 250 into a turkey like Mephy is a good way to become defeated real fast.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"Hyperbole or not, you seem to want to play "woe to poor Blood Angels" in this thread."

I still have the gonads to roll these losers out (only army I own ), so I'm going to reserve the right to complain once in a while. Like it or not, the BA are bad. And winning with them is now much more meaningful than in 5th. Which is good, because it happens a lot less often :(

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Not hugely, I'm dropping the Land Raider Crusader with Banner Command Squad inside for him. While extremely hard to kill,I find having 165 points sitting inside doing nothing
extremely points inefficient, and whatever firepower not coming the way of the Land Raider is hitting my bikes instead. The LRC is also 260 points of unscoring which cannot contest, can die in a single shot, and is useful in only one phase in my turn, i.e. shooting.

Ravenwing shooting with the banner, while strong, is still overly reliant on a single phase. Optimising my list for all phases is probably better.

Mephiston makes my list both strong in assault and shooting.

The BA drop pod with assault squad will also be something the Ravenwing sorely need, which is reliable turn one anti-vehicle melta. Sure, it's quite an expensive unit to suicide, but having bikes do it is worse (unreliable with one shot, can't get 2d6 on turn 1, wasting salvo fire, suiciding a valuable scoring bike unit). The squad and pod can block LOS and movement, and soak fire which would be directed at my bikes.

Mephiston, on the other hand, is useful in three (psychic defence, Biomancy if the situation calls for it, and assault.) He can tie up units in assault and with I7, extremely effective for running squads down in Sweeping (the best way to kill units).

The list I run mitigates Meph's weaknesses: A PFG gives him a 4++ invuln, any TEQs will die horrible deaths to my three Black Knight squads, and the fact he can be shot at will hopefully draw some fire off my bikers. He doesn't need a delivery method, he has a jump pack.

His role in the list is to pick off the units my Black Knights and Sammael can't handle; which while admittedly rare include things like Dreadknights and Monstrous Creatures, especially Greater Daemons, which are huge threats to my army I find wasting my firepower on quite inefficient. Mephiston stacks up quite well against any Greater Daemon assuming doesn't get charged (It's quite easy to bubble wrap a single model) as he just needs to get one attack through, and he eats Tervigons and non-Iron Armed Flyrants for breakfast.

at 1850 I'd just take two Mortis Contemptors, but at 1500 no one really seems to bring flyers, only FMCs.

So
Mephy 250
melta BA assault squad in a drop pod ~120
Sammuel ~200
Land Raider Crusaider ~260
Techmarine with powerfield generator ~100
Command Squad inside the land raider with dakka banner(65) ~160

That is over 1090 and doesnt include your black knights or Ravenwing bikers.

For the dakka banner to be effective you are going to need a lot of regular bikes with twin linked bolters and for anti teq you will need squads of black knights

400 points and you need 2+ troops and an 1+ elite, how many bikes is that?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
someone check my math, I dont have the DA codex

That is a really small army. Even by BA standards.

 Exergy wrote:

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Not hugely, I'm dropping the Land Raider Crusader with Banner Command Squad inside for him. While extremely hard to kill,I find having 165 points sitting inside doing nothing
extremely points inefficient, and whatever firepower not coming the way of the Land Raider is hitting my bikes instead. The LRC is also 260 points of unscoring which cannot contest, can die in a single shot, and is useful in only one phase in my turn, i.e. shooting.

Ravenwing shooting with the banner, while strong, is still overly reliant on a single phase. Optimising my list for all phases is probably better.

Mephiston makes my list both strong in assault and shooting.

The BA drop pod with assault squad will also be something the Ravenwing sorely need, which is reliable turn one anti-vehicle melta. Sure, it's quite an expensive unit to suicide, but having bikes do it is worse (unreliable with one shot, can't get 2d6 on turn 1, wasting salvo fire, suiciding a valuable scoring bike unit). The squad and pod can block LOS and movement, and soak fire which would be directed at my bikes.

Mephiston, on the other hand, is useful in three (psychic defence, Biomancy if the situation calls for it, and assault.) He can tie up units in assault and with I7, extremely effective for running squads down in Sweeping (the best way to kill units).

The list I run mitigates Meph's weaknesses: A PFG gives him a 4++ invuln, any TEQs will die horrible deaths to my three Black Knight squads, and the fact he can be shot at will hopefully draw some fire off my bikers. He doesn't need a delivery method, he has a jump pack.

His role in the list is to pick off the units my Black Knights and Sammael can't handle; which while admittedly rare include things like Dreadknights and Monstrous Creatures, especially Greater Daemons, which are huge threats to my army I find wasting my firepower on quite inefficient. Mephiston stacks up quite well against any Greater Daemon assuming doesn't get charged (It's quite easy to bubble wrap a single model) as he just needs to get one attack through, and he eats Tervigons and non-Iron Armed Flyrants for breakfast.

at 1850 I'd just take two Mortis Contemptors, but at 1500 no one really seems to bring flyers, only FMCs.

So
Mephy 250
melta BA assault squad in a drop pod ~120
Sammuel ~200
Land Raider Crusaider ~260
Techmarine with powerfield generator ~100
Command Squad inside the land raider with dakka banner(65) ~160

That is over 1090 and doesnt include your black knights or Ravenwing bikers.

For the dakka banner to be effective you are going to need a lot of regular bikes with twin linked bolters and for anti teq you will need squads of black knights

400 points and you need 2+ troops and an 1+ elite, how many bikes is that?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
someone check my math, I dont have the DA codex

Read the first line of my post.

Alternatives to Mephiston:

Two Mortis Contemptors, Kheres (Cyclones? Expensive at 35 points a pop)

Rune Priest on Bike, Drop podding GH with Arjac Rockfist ( TH+JOTWW ), 2 Wolf Guard on Bikes to go with the RP

Bray'ath Asmantle in a Lucius Drop Pod

This is based on the models I have, or are willing to buy.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
The idea here is to have a monster hunting unit which draws fire away from my precious Bikes.

Mephiston ticks the boxes, because he's a huge threat which cannot be ignored.Oh, and he will be getting a 4++ from a babysitting Techmarine or Librarian.

 Griddlelol wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
How heroic.

Most HQs seem to be like that now. STW sucks :/

As someone who runs a combat HQ, killing the enemy's weak warlords makes my day.

Combat HQs are still boss. They've turned around so many games from me, and can pull last minute wins (well, Sammael, at least, with his insane mobility, survivability, and AP2 I5 weapon.) This is why Mephiston appeals, as most of the tables I play on are 4 by 4, assault in the second turn is a guarantee.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

 Commander_Nightflier wrote:
i dont understand why people think that he is a fragile mini, hes got a better stat line than a carnifex and a heck of a lot harder to see in cover, and can move a lot faster. use him as such. I have a hard time seeing anything that can deal with Railguns better than a land raider as fragile? and for the indended purpose he would be great.

Yeah but who takes Carnifexes? And for that matter, he's almost 100pts more than a Carnifex.

I do. 3 of them.

And I can point to maybe 2 games in the last 6 months that I might have won if only I had been taking Trygons. The rest I've either won or lost by enough that it wouldn't have mattered.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Combat HQs are still boss. They've turned around so many games from me, and can pull last minute wins (well, Sammael, at least, with his insane mobility, survivability, and AP2 I5 weapon.) This is why Mephiston appeals, as most of the tables I play on are 4 by 4, assault in the second turn is a guarantee.

Too bad BA HQs are terrible at combat. Mephiston included, for his price.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

 Commander_Nightflier wrote:
i dont understand why people think that he is a fragile mini, hes got a better stat line than a carnifex and a heck of a lot harder to see in cover, and can move a lot faster. use him as such. I have a hard time seeing anything that can deal with Railguns better than a land raider as fragile? and for the indended purpose he would be great.

Yeah but who takes Carnifexes? And for that matter, he's almost 100pts more than a Carnifex.

I do. 3 of them.

And I can point to maybe 2 games in the last 6 months that I might have won if only I had been taking Trygons. The rest I've either won or lost by enough that it wouldn't have mattered.

haha well I run them as well, but more because I don't have any Tyrgons, Tervigons or Tyrannofexes. And my Carnifexes aren't dakkafexes either...

But still, that doesn't change the matter that Mephiston's almost 100pts more than a Carnifex so his stats should be better...

Martel732 wrote:

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Combat HQs are still boss. They've turned around so many games from me, and can pull last minute wins (well, Sammael, at least, with his insane mobility, survivability, and AP2 I5 weapon.) This is why Mephiston appeals, as most of the tables I play on are 4 by 4, assault in the second turn is a guarantee.

Too bad BA HQs are terrible at combat. Mephiston included, for his price.

That's not entirely true, Mephiston is pretty good for his price if you're looking at him from a pure close combat perspective.

His only downside is that he can't hit and run.

"That's not entirely true, Mephiston is pretty good for his price if you're looking at him from a pure close combat perspective.
"

I am looking at him from a CC perspective. He's not even close to being worth 250.

Today Mephiston and friends utterly curbstomped a Tau army. The BA assault squad survived 15 fire warriors rapid firing to kill / lock up a broadside and a 15 man unit of fire warriors. Mephiston ran roughshod over battlesuits and drew a lot of firepower off my bikes, which completed a tabling in turn 5.

Couple of thoughts
Rolling Invisiblity on Black Knights is broken.

Rolling three psychic powers a turn for Mephiston makes him quite susceptible to Perils of the Warp. I took about three perils wounds this game.

Altogether I'm quite pleased by the synergy of the BA/Ravenwing combination. Hopefully more competitive games to come.

Martel732 wrote:
"That's not entirely true, Mephiston is pretty good for his price if you're looking at him from a pure close combat perspective.
"

I am looking at him from a CC perspective. He's not even close to being worth 250.

Arguably he isn't quite as good as a Bloodthirster, but as a Space Marine option he's probably the strongest beatstick character you get at 250 points.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"That's not entirely true, Mephiston is pretty good for his price if you're looking at him from a pure close combat perspective.
"

I am looking at him from a CC perspective. He's not even close to being worth 250.

Arguably he isn't quite as good as a Bloodthirster, but as a Space Marine option he's probably the strongest beatstick character you get at 250 points.

Let's assume you're right about that. I don't have the experience to say for sure, but it sounds close enough, so I'll concede that Mephiston is the best CC character any loyalist marine army can take. What that says to me, though, is that I should not ever take a marine character for CC purposes at all, not that I should just settle for the least bad option.

Mephiston might be one of the better cc characters in a vacuum however there are two severely limiting factors in his utilization:1 no IC, so he's on his own and requires either a transport or careful model placement to make sure he is out of LOS. 2 No invulnerable save which compounds with issue one.

Either Mephiston is in a LR or SR, or you risk DS stormies ruining his day. If he is in one of those two vehicals, they now present a massive target comprising of approx 500 points, equivalent to 2 tactical squads and rhinos.

He's just not worth it at the points level he costs, at the points level the rest of our units cost, without an invulnerable and without the ability to join even a squad.

Running him in my Ravenwing list mitigates both of these problems.

With a Libby / Tech running a PFG he gets 4++ save.

Being an IC isn't that huge, because if my opponent wants to divert firepower at him, I'm perfectly happy for him to take it.

T6 W5 2+ 4++ is extremely hard to kill in a single shooting phase, since he's effectively immune to ID and given his size it's unlikely all units will be able to LOS him.

Any shooting wasted on him is shooting not going at the bikes, and the assault squad.

Turn one scout move means my army is in charge range come turn 2. This is useful against any army, and Mephiston is there to provide counter-charge against large FMCs who I refuse to waste my firepower on- and he minces everything except a Bloodthirster one on one in close combat, and has a fair chance against the BT.

Any thoughts on the alternatives?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 tomjoad wrote:

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"That's not entirely true, Mephiston is pretty good for his price if you're looking at him from a pure close combat perspective.
"

I am looking at him from a CC perspective. He's not even close to being worth 250.

Arguably he isn't quite as good as a Bloodthirster, but as a Space Marine option he's probably the strongest beatstick character you get at 250 points.

Let's assume you're right about that. I don't have the experience to say for sure, but it sounds close enough, so I'll concede that Mephiston is the best CC character any loyalist marine army can take. What that says to me, though, is that I should not ever take a marine character for CC purposes at all, not that I should just settle for the least bad option.

Mephiston is essentially a jump pack MC for all intents and purposes, and these used to be the best CC units prior to Winged DPs with Black Maces / Bloodthirsters.

With the limited Marine options for fighting DPs and other FMCs reliably, I'd say he's worth the points. No one else even comes close- maybe Severin Loth, due to his 2++ and six biomancy rolls, but he doesn't have a jump pack. Ignore an extremely powerful phase of the game at your own peril!

Oh god, I just had a thought; Mephiston might be a FMC in the next codex

I run a BA and I have Mephiston, unfortunately I agree he is too much points. Maybe if it is a 2000 point game or higher yes take him . If he was an IC I could run him with an assault squad and sanguine priest. That is neither here or their. Instead of Mephiston I have a terminator librarian I can use. Yes he has a thunderhammer, but it is more a force weapon mace which is strength 6 and a storm shield. I give him Sword of Sanguine and Wings of Sanguine. This is about 220 points. Your not spending the 250 and you have a better invel save, just a suggestion.
[/img]

We can't really comment on what he uses because we don't know... I still believe 250 points for an allied commander is too much, especially for an undefeated list.

I also think that a terminator librarian with storm shield is the best choice for BA although I favor a force axe.

cannoncocker wrote:
I run a BA and I have Mephiston, unfortunately I agree he is too much points. Maybe if it is a 2000 point game or higher yes take him . If he was an IC I could run him with an assault squad and sanguine priest. That is neither here or their. Instead of Mephiston I have a terminator librarian I can use. Yes he has a thunderhammer, but it is more a force weapon mace which is strength 6 and a storm shield. I give him Sword of Sanguine and Wings of Sanguine. This is about 220 points. Your not spending the 250 and you have a better invel save, just a suggestion.
[/img]

That's not a bad idea actually!

Only thing holding him back (and this is huge) no sweeping advance.oh, and a measly two attacks :(

 tomjoad wrote:

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"That's not entirely true, Mephiston is pretty good for his price if you're looking at him from a pure close combat perspective.
"

I am looking at him from a CC perspective. He's not even close to being worth 250.

Arguably he isn't quite as good as a Bloodthirster, but as a Space Marine option he's probably the strongest beatstick character you get at 250 points.

Let's assume you're right about that. I don't have the experience to say for sure, but it sounds close enough, so I'll concede that Mephiston is the best CC character any loyalist marine army can take. What that says to me, though, is that I should not ever take a marine character for CC purposes at all, not that I should just settle for the least bad option.

This.

What are you going to do when two Bloodthirsters and three flying Daemon Princes hit your gunline then? Roll into a ball and cry?

Because there is a player in my group which runs this.

Is that another group Chris?.

I will admit that with my list, 3 DP's and a LoC hitting your lines after its been battered by lots of shooting is hard, in the game the other week against Lyall, half my army took down his bloodthirster warlord in one shooting phase so I can kick out a lot of dice with my usual 1750 list.

I also run BA's, and have only run mephy in a few games, my go to choice is a normal libby with JP and a sang priest, mainly to buff the assault squad they are with which makes them pretty mean, against normal stats (i.e MEQ) they are hitting on 4's re rolling and wounding on 3's with 3 attacks each with up to 12 dudes (9 assault marines at 3 each = 27 sarg at 4, sang priest ws5 at 4 and libby at 4 equals 39 attacks on the charge for a unhurt squad).

Anyway, that is why I dont usually take meph, the few times I have run him he has walked through huron blackheart and his squad and killed a lot of nids (namely nid warriors, 3 wounds a piece my arse.... ha) and one game while he had iron arm and warp speed, in a 4k point game he was so darn slow everything run away from him (playing chaos, go figure!)

I do love the dude, but its a bit points investment, and against a BT I doubt he would last one turn my DP didnt even with warp speed.

Mephiston will not save you from that list. Loyalist marines have to shoot that list. If you can't cripple it by shooting, you've probably lost.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
What are you going to do when two Bloodthirsters and three flying Daemon Princes hit your gunline then? Roll into a ball and cry?

Because there is a player in my group which runs this.

I would have spent 100 points on a librarian as my HQ and used the remaining 150 to bolster my shooting. Razorbacks can move 12" and fire everything, Baals are great, yada yada yada. Being able to keep moving every turn the way meched up BAs can SHOULD, hopefully, minimize the damage a FMC can do in a given game. Honestly, if you can't keep your tanks safe from FMCs given that much movement, I don't see how you're going to guarantee Mephiston being on hand to either receive a charge or to counter-charge.

I don't have any experience with FMCs, unfortunately, but how many points are left for troops when that many flying demons are coming at you? I'm more concerned with how much damage a proper demonic horde can do than a flying circus.

Better yet, get an allied vanilla libby for NULL ZONE with the extra points.

Martel732 wrote:
Better yet, get an allied vanilla libby for NULL ZONE with the extra points.

Null zone is going to be truely horrible against the new daemons, with the loss of fateweavers bubble, ouch!.#

Sternguard will also be good against elite daemon armies, so what to they have GUO at toughness silly with iron arm, heres wound on a 2plus ammo rapid firing in your face, its all about making them roll dice

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

Yeah but who takes Carnifexes? And for that matter, he's almost 100pts more than a Carnifex.

Besides you, although you do it mostly to have fun with them admittedly. But you do

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
What are you going to do when two Bloodthirsters and three flying Daemon Princes hit your gunline then? Roll into a ball and cry?

Because there is a player in my group which runs this.

As if Mephiston would stop that attack at all.

 Titan Atlas wrote:

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

Yeah but who takes Carnifexes? And for that matter, he's almost 100pts more than a Carnifex.

Besides you, although you do it mostly to have fun with them admittedly. But you do

I already said that I do and that it is hardly an ideal set-up. I wish I had some Tervigons...

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
He doesn't need a delivery method, he has a jump pack.

He does need a delivery method - I'm actually amazed no-one has brought this up (from what I've noticed)

If you swap out his standard psychic powers he loses Wings of Sanguinius, as far as I know you can't pick and choose which powers you keep, it's all or nothing. Rolling to pass leadership at the start of every movement phase is a bit risky, it isn't a guaranteed delivery system at all!

 stubacca wrote:

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
He doesn't need a delivery method, he has a jump pack.

He does need a delivery method - I'm actually amazed no-one has brought this up (from what I've noticed)

If you swap out his standard psychic powers he loses Wings of Sanguinius, as far as I know you can't pick and choose which powers you keep, it's all or nothing. Rolling to pass leadership at the start of every movement phase is a bit risky, it isn't a guaranteed delivery system at all!

It's even worse when every Eldar player in the local meta brings eldrad. Now your rolling psychic tests on 3 dice.

 stubacca wrote:

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
He doesn't need a delivery method, he has a jump pack.

He does need a delivery method - I'm actually amazed no-one has brought this up (from what I've noticed)

If you swap out his standard psychic powers he loses Wings of Sanguinius, as far as I know you can't pick and choose which powers you keep, it's all or nothing. Rolling to pass leadership at the start of every movement phase is a bit risky, it isn't a guaranteed delivery system at all!

Considering we have no idea how Asmodean crams a 250 point model into a 1500 point list, we can only assume he just foot slogs him into battle.

MotRW 200
Librarian, Bike, PFG 115

RCS, Banner 165
RCS 120

RAS, Melta 90
RAS, Melta
RAS, Melta
RAS 80
RAS

Darkshroud 80

Mephiston 250
BA Assault Squad, 2 Melta, Drop Pod 120

1500 points

I have two variants on this, one where I drop two bike squads for a third Black Knight squad and Lvl 2 on the librarian, and one where I drop the fifth bike squad for melta on the fourth and an apothecary in the command squad. The RAS with no upgrades go in front with Sammael and the Librarian to get Skilled Rider and soak fire. Alpha strike with 60 twin-linked bolter shots and whatever plasma can reach from the BKs, or turbo-boost forward with the Shroud.

Couple of caveats: The tables I play on are quite small, being London (mostly 4 by 4, I can only play 6 by 4 on weekends), so close combat is almost a certainty by turn two with scout.

Not much you can do against SW and Eldar, I guess, but they are relatively rare in my meta- but the same would go for any Librarian and although Mephiston is incredibly perils prone, he has five wounds versus two. In any case, mobility isn't a problem with the list, Mephiston is there to attract firepower and counter-assault, rather than charging straight into assault.

Mephiston may not be great in a BA list, but this is about using him in a RW list. Specifically, my RW list above.

I don't rate Baal predators at all. 130 points for a TL Assault Cannon? That's not shooting.

If you've never played against FMCs, you're in for a paradigm shift about assault in 6th edition. Daemon shooting is abysmal, I wouldn't worry too much about that.

The point is, you cannot cripple a FMC circus list by shooting it, taking wounds on FMCs doesn't hurt them. You win by killing them in CC, something Mephiston is extremely good at. Daemons have to be afraid of him because if they let a single wound through, they're dead. With Black Knight support he strikes simultaneously with DPs, wounding them on 2+ with PE rerolls, while they hit on 4+ and wound on 4+. GUOs and Lords of Change strike at I5, and Keepers of Secrets aren't flying. The only thing which has a reasonable chance of killing him is the BT.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

MarkyMark wrote:
Is that another group Chris?.

I will admit that with my list, 3 DP's and a LoC hitting your lines after its been battered by lots of shooting is hard, in the game the other week against Lyall, half my army took down his bloodthirster warlord in one shooting phase so I can kick out a lot of dice with my usual 1750 list.

I also run BA's, and have only run mephy in a few games, my go to choice is a normal libby with JP and a sang priest, mainly to buff the assault squad they are with which makes them pretty mean, against normal stats (i.e MEQ) they are hitting on 4's re rolling and wounding on 3's with 3 attacks each with up to 12 dudes (9 assault marines at 3 each = 27 sarg at 4, sang priest ws5 at 4 and libby at 4 equals 39 attacks on the charge for a unhurt squad).

Anyway, that is why I dont usually take meph, the few times I have run him he has walked through huron blackheart and his squad and killed a lot of nids (namely nid warriors, 3 wounds a piece my arse.... ha) and one game while he had iron arm and warp speed, in a 4k point game he was so darn slow everything run away from him (playing chaos, go figure!)

I do love the dude, but its a bit points investment, and against a BT I doubt he would last one turn my DP didnt even with warp speed.

I play in three clubs, and might be joining another Such is the variety of the London gaming scene!

If I do recall that was some poor rolling on the behalf of his BT!

I'll probably experiment with him a little, part of the reason is I've always wanted to run Mephiston, and now with allies I can!

Another thing, since he's quite bad at killing himself, he's great against Necron Lords with MSS!

I'm surprised no one has commented on my alternatives yet:

Contemptor Dread with Cyclone Missile Launcher (215 pts)
Rune Priest on bike, Arjac Rockfist with Wolf Guard in Drop pod (Roughly the same as the BA)
Nemisis Dreadknight, Teleporter, Greatsword, Gatling Psilencer (250 points)



Automatically Appended Next Post:
In a tourney TAC list I'd run Mortis Contemptors instead, but specifically for my meta... Mephiston rocks.

Just a quick heads-up on your BA assault marines, they can only get a single melta for every 5 man.

However I am wondering what you are going to do once you face a Helldrake or two?
Since you are tailoring to your meta it isn't unheard of that other players will also, and looking at your current list you have nothing that can really deal with this.

And using Mephiston as counter assault is always a gamble as you will fail that psychic test for wings when you really need it.

Looking at what you want to counter (FMC) and seeing as Forgeworld is not restricted I would suggest using a couple of Hyperios Missile Launcher platforms.

DutchSage wrote:
Just a quick heads-up on your BA assault marines, they can only get a single melta for every 5 man.

However I am wondering what you are going to do once you face a Helldrake or two?
Since you are tailoring to your meta it isn't unheard of that other players will also, and looking at your current list you have nothing that can really deal with this.

And using Mephiston as counter assault is always a gamble as you will fail that psychic test for wings when you really need it.

Looking at what you want to counter (FMC) and seeing as Forgeworld is not restricted I would suggest using a couple of Hyperios Missile Launcher platforms.

Was going to suggest a hyperios, they are mean really, very good anti air and have interceptor and skyfire and good anti light armour as well

 Super Ready wrote:
This sounds like a pretty good combo, actually. Everyone's harping on about his inability to take out TEQs but they're forgetting two things:

1) Both he and the Ravenwing are very manoeuvrable.
2) You already have fantastic AP2 ability in Sammael and the Knights.

If you're looking at Mephiston in a Ravenwing list and moaning about TEQ's? You're missing the point.

That said, you shouldn't plan your entire game around him as he IS just one man and can get tarpitted by big mobs and the like. Use him to counter any immediate threats to your other units, or counter-assault if your bikes get unexpectedly stuck in assault.

This goes on with what I was thinking. OP is running 3, I think units of black knights, and I assume Sammal also? Terminators won't be a problem. Keeping meph near the powerfield generator might not even be necessary, I would just retreat towards it (if the bearer of it is still alive) once he starts getting torn up.

Martel732 wrote:
"That's not entirely true, Mephiston is pretty good for his price if you're looking at him from a pure close combat perspective.
"

I am looking at him from a CC perspective. He's not even close to being worth 250.

True

A squad of assault terminators are in many ways more resilent with the 3++ instead of T6. They have 10 attacks compared to mephy's 5. They still hit at high strength and they are AP2 instead of AP3. They cost less.

purely on combat ability, Mephi isnt good.

 Exergy wrote:

For combat, Mephi isnt never good.

Is that a purposeful double negative? It seems to contradict what you said about Assault terminators.
While I hate Meph, and think he's an over priced pile of poo, he does one thing that Terminators don't: fill a mandatory HQ slot. Once you take into account a bare bones Librarian (since that's the cheapest HQ of use) your Assault Terminators sky rocket to being 320pts to bring along (however, I'm obviously ignoring the massive benefits that +20pts and Divination can have by including the librarian with TDA in the Assault terminator squad).

 Griddlelol wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

For combat, Mephi isnt never good.

Is that a purposeful double negative? It seems to contradict what you said about Assault terminators.
While I hate Meph, and think he's an over priced pile of poo, he does one thing that Terminators don't: fill a mandatory HQ slot. Once you take into account a bare bones Librarian (since that's the cheapest HQ of use) your Assault Terminators sky rocket to being 320pts to bring along (however, I'm obviously ignoring the massive benefits that +20pts and Divination can have by including the librarian with TDA in the Assault terminator squad).

wow I dont know what my hands were thinking

Mephi can be very good. But purely on this combat abilities he isnt worth it. You have to add in his other qualities like you mentioned to make him good.

Most pure CC characters arent particularly good. Those that have other abilities, that are not considered seem even worse. Mephi on CC prowess alone isnt great.

DutchSage wrote:
Just a quick heads-up on your BA assault marines, they can only get a single melta for every 5 man.

However I am wondering what you are going to do once you face a Helldrake or two?
Since you are tailoring to your meta it isn't unheard of that other players will also, and looking at your current list you have nothing that can really deal with this.

And using Mephiston as counter assault is always a gamble as you will fail that psychic test for wings when you really need it.

Looking at what you want to counter (FMC) and seeing as Forgeworld is not restricted I would suggest using a couple of Hyperios Missile Launcher platforms.

Good catch, Battlescribe lets me take two :(

I haven't seen a single helldrake being used in 20+ games, and no player has plans to field them (weird, I know) with at most possible one on the way.

That will just add an element of thrill to the game I think, no point playing with 100% reliable stuff, how boring would that be?

Hyperios take a valuable FA slot, and I dislike the models/will not buy them. I have two Mortis Contemptors for AA, if needed. I just can't figure out if the Cyclone upgrade is worthwhile.

I'm having a really hard time fielding Mephiston in 6th edition outside of using him extremely situationally. It sucks because he's unquestionably my favorite character fluff wise, and I'd try to cram him into every 5th ed list (even when it was unwise).

If you're looking for a BA ally to fill that monster hunting role, I'd really think about Tycho over Mephiston -- and here's why:
- Better ranged options (combi melta and sternguard ammo)
- Gets his hits at I5 in CC, and they ignore armor.

Essentially you're getting the same 2+ save, but with a better CC weapon, can join a unit, better at range -- and he's cheaper. Sure you lose the psyker combo, but it's absolutely worth it.

Tycho isn't bad, he has lots of small benefits that add up to a decent character. However your still not causing a ton of wounds at str 4. He'll probably kill 2-3 t4 models a turn in combat.

His combimelta is confusing, don't be tempted to try to use it, it's more of: I have one melta shot if I need it.

Speaking of "best" and "cheapest" BA HQs, our librarians are overpriced garbage also. 100 points for a model with no invulnerable save, that dies to a single krak missile? No thanks! I'm also sick of people thinking that prescience makes him worth it.

DA get a librarian who is appropriately priced, can take a myriad of awesome wargear with a choice of several different invulnerable options.

With BA we're either overpaying for a below average HQ or were overpaying for a crappy HQ that is only a liability.

I am honestly thinking lately that our better HQ choices would be a reclusiarch on a bike or dare I say a captain on a bike with a SS and TH.

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:

With BA we're either overpaying for a below average HQ or were overpaying for a crappy HQ that is only a liability.

I absolutely agree. It's something that sooner or later (late in the case of BA) it will all get sorted out with Codex updates. The problem BA have right now in 6th compared to other new codexs is the lack of options in HQ. There are a slew of really fluffy, nice named characters with a lot of fun rules on the tabletop that translate into a lot of points, but little effectiveness.

Now the move seems to be "Take a land raider priced named HQ with all sorts of fun stuff" or "Take a cheap HQ you can make as expensive as you want with flashy wargear". Since BA don't have a chapter wargear/relic section they're very limited. Captains are terrible, librarians are overpriced, and while I run reclusiarch's most often even they suffer from needing to take a JP to be CC viable with most lists, and even then you're using a crosius arcanum -- all at 155 pts.

I'm not crying by any means after being OP for an entire edition, but as it stands the codex hasn't transitioned to 6th as well as GK's has.

Keep in mind that the BA librarians might only be mastery level 1 they can take 2 psychic powers from the rulebook disciplines. So while still severely overpriced compared to our Dark Angels alternatives, that's at least something i guess.

It's a shame you're forced to have a HQ. And it's an even bigger shame that the BA codex does not have a single HQ that does not feel flawed somehow (underwhelming or overpriced, or just plain lacking options).

It's something every edition happens though and it is especially felt by the Space Marine armies as they can directly compare exact the same units that get a 35% points reduction :(

Still Blood Angels have enough toys that they are fun to play, and knowing you're codex overpays by about 10% makes the wins against the top tier armies even sweeter (and gives you a nice excuse when you loose , no way did I play that poorly, normally that 1 death company marine totally owns a Bloodthirster ).

BA will get updated, it's pointless comparing a 5th ed codex to a 6th.

DutchSage wrote:


It's a shame you're forced to have a HQ.

Tell me about it! Let me nominate a tactical sergeant to lead my detachment!

Good old Space Marine Battle Leaders. 40 points a pop.

It may just be me but I always roll amazingly well on my HQ units, so much so that a good 30-40% of my games have been won by sheer virtue of 2 HQs tearing their way
through most of the opponent's army, or soaking the fire of entire turns. This also takes into account 3rd edition, so your mileage may vary.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Good old Space Marine Battle Leaders. 40 points a pop.

It may just be me but I always roll amazingly well on my HQ units, so much so that a good 30-40% of my games have been won by sheer virtue of 2 HQs tearing their way
through most of the opponent's army, or soaking the fire of entire turns. This also takes into account 3rd edition, so your mileage may vary.

You must be having some outstanding luck. The only BA HQ choice that ever seems to have decent survivability in my lists (when I dare get them into combat) is a terminator librarian. I love using him (because SG are my favorite BA units) but Dante is so astoundingly weak for 225 pts I'm always angry when he gets eliminated quickly.

Yup Dante is weak sauce for 225 pts.

And that terminator librarian has survivability, but relatively little damage output.

No one's offered any real alternatives to Mephiston though, a Termi Assault Squad doesn't quite cut it in terms of mobility and killyness.

Ahhh, Mephiston, a personal favorite of mine. An absolute terror in 5th. What's changed since then? The overall nerfs to melee (random charge range, challenges...etc), dropping to AP3, making terminators an almost impossible battle now along with 2+ save characters.

He's always had shifty fights against terminators though, in fifth TH/SS terminators were one of his banes. Top end 2+ save characters also beat his face in during fifth (Abaddon, Draigo, Lysander, Calgar, etc) and do even better now.
He's always had bad days against massed lascannons, poison, melta, plasma and other AP2 fire power, but now FnP work against pretty much everything, and cover saves are all less potent.

So not much has changed there, so what is he good at? Well, he dumps 3+ save anything super fast. He laughs every vehicle he touches off the board, and is reasonably fast as well. As a bonus, he fills your compulsory HQ slot as well.

I think we can all agree that BA HQs are largely crap. Our libbys are inferior to DA's, our captain can't have a relic blade or artificer armor, reclusarchs are just poor and the other special character aren't anything to write home about. So regardless of what we choose, we are paying a 100+ point tax right off the bat. Additionally, I feel one of the major failings of the BA list is it's ability to deal with power armor+ and monstrous creatures, plague marines, FnP marines of other sorts, bikers, tervigons, demon princes, greater demons...etc. this is a task that Meph excels at. Vehicles and hordes have never really been too much of an issue with ASM being decent against weaker troops, and have a fair amount of melta kicking around.

So how to use him effectively? Hiding him in a squad of ASM for the cover save and probably FnP is a no brainer. Using the ASM sergeant as challenge bait for the scary targets, and any support fire you have to make life easier for him is also obvious. Use him to take out your opponents most expensive optimal target for mephiston. Forget the rulebook powers, as trading 3 good powers for 1 good one (prescience) and 1 random one is a crappy trade.

We can get into discussion all day about "Well, 10 combi-plasma sternguard can kill him in 1 volley!" or "TH/SS terminators are better damage in melee" or any other comparison you want to make, but overall, he's not laughably bad, but he's not exactly top notch competitive either much like the majority of the BA codex. His unique combination of T6, W5 2+ save, and 5-6 rerollable S10 attacks in melee, all while being capable of jump pack movement is not to be easily dismissed in a game.

For added insult, though, he completely falls apart against rules of warding and shadow of the warp.

But still, the biggest flaw is the fact that the divination libby is a force multiplier and Mephiston is not. Giving a squad counter attack and full BS overwatch or the 4++ save is way better than what Mephiston brings to the table. The sick part is that you can have two jump pack libbies for the price of one Mephiston. That's a lot of divination support.

Mephiston does indeed do all the things you enumerated. I'm not debating that. It's the price tag. *250* pts is just crazy expensive.

Martel732 wrote:
Yup Dante is weak sauce for 225 pts.

add him to the LONG, LONG list of bad special characters.

He's still the best FMC hunter available to Marines, however, which is the only reason I'm taking him.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
He's still the best FMC hunter available to Marines, however, which is the only reason I'm taking him.

I have found Vendettas to be a bigger issue than FMC honestly.

Martel732 wrote:

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
He's still the best FMC hunter available to Marines, however, which is the only reason I'm taking him.

I have found Vendettas to be a bigger issue than FMC honestly.

How does Mephiston deal with FMCs exactly? Maybe regular MCs, but he's pretty much useless vs FMCs. Even then, most MCs will go down to a single volley of missile launchers, although he might come in handy if your opponent is spamming... of course, the only armies which can do this are Daemons and Nids, and Nids have good psychic defense.

counter-assault, force weapon/Bk -1t insta death. Is a Mortis Contemptor better, though?

I don't see how Mephiston is any kind of answer to MC. I prefer to shoot them before they even get close, ML, LC and PG he the job done without the hefty price tags and liability of a character without IC or an invulnerable.

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:
I don't see how Mephiston is any kind of answer to MC. I prefer to shoot them before they even get close, ML, LC and PG he the job done without the hefty price tags and liability of a character without IC or an invulnerable.

Snapshooting weapons into FMC is terribly inefficient, I find. Although I am leaning towards two Mortis Contemptors right now, the amount of firepower they put out is obscene.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
counter-assault, force weapon/Bk -1t insta death. Is a Mortis Contemptor better, though?

you cannot assault a flyer or FMC unless you ground it.

From what I hear its not to hard to ground a FMC with gunfire. Also I always have either a quad gun, a vendetta or a storm raven in my lists. All have no problem with FMCs.

Even better, multiple Vendettas Skyfire LCs never get old.

Martel732 wrote:
Even better, multiple Vendettas Skyfire LCs never get old.

Skyfire TWIN LINKED LC even better.

Everytime I have had my SR shot down, it's been from one volley from one vendetta. Damn are they good planes.

Ran Mephiston today against Daemons and he rocked- ate a Soulgrinder, Skulltaker, twenty Bloodletters, and ten plaguebearers taking a single wound. Shot the DPs and LOC to death with the rest of my army. Quite pleased with how he synergises, getting a model for him now.

Glad he worked out for you, but not all matchups will be as favorable.

What should I be looking out for?

AP 2 weapons, terminators, runes of warding, Dark Eldar poison weapons, monstrous creatures that ignore his 2+ save.

I.E. Threats to any Terminator/Power Armoured army and Psykers in general?

Skulltaker should have kicked his ass. I dunno what their list was, but if they had a Bloodthirster or Keeper of Secrets, or possibly even a Daemon Prince, they probably would have mulched him. I'm surprised none of those things decided to come over and put a stop to that.

His list was

LoC, Grimoire
Skulltaker

10 BL
10 BL
10 Plaguebearers
10 Plaguebearers
5 Screamers

Skull Cannon
Soul Grinder, Phelgm, MoN
DP Tzeentch, 3, Wings, Armour

I ran
Sam
Banner Squad
LRC
4x RAS, naked
Contemptor Mortis, Cyclone
Mephiston
Assault Squad, Drop Pod

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
I.E. Threats to any Terminator/Power Armoured army and Psykers in general?

Basically. Plasma is particularly dangerous I think due to a high rate of fire.

Plasma is dangerous but reliably getting 5 wounds on a T6 2+ 4++ model in two turns is a challenge for any army.

Especially when said model is infantry sized, and can easily hide on the first/second turn.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Plasma is dangerous but reliably getting 5 wounds on a T6 2+ 4++ model in two turns is a challenge for any army.

Especially when said model is infantry sized, and can easily hide on the first/second turn.

Why just 2 turns? Also, I imagine he gets away from the 4++ when he gets into assaults, right? Or, can't people just kill the 1W techmarine? THEN shoot Mephiston? The techmarine will die to small arms fire, freeing up bigger guns for Mephiston.

You can hide the Techmarine in a bike squad, give him a Darkshroud 2+ cover, etc. Ideally Mephiston is assaulting things he won't need the 4++ in combat with, but if absolutely necessary the tech can join him.

In any case, either models require an inordinate amount of firepower to kill in a turn or so, barring unbelievably bad dice rolls. Meanwhile the rest of the Ravenwing is wrecking your face.

No, the Techmarine can't join him. ICs can never join units that consist of a single model.

And you got pretty lucky with the dice IMO.

I dont know, you see me play Lyall the other week, first turn shooting took down his bloodthirster just from weight of fire and I still had more to shoot.

When I am at the club next I'll happily use my normal list and I have a meph model you can use, proof is in the pudding!

rigeld2 wrote:
No, the Techmarine can't join him. ICs can never join units that consist of a single model.

And you got pretty lucky with the dice IMO.

The techmarine can join him in the assault by charging the same unit he does.

Gamblers fallacy or sheer hubris, somehow I find I roll much better when I believe in the unit I'm using- I had full confidence in Mephi and he didn't let me down! Nothing in the list could really hurt him except the LoC with the 2++ rerollable, and I made sure it died as soon as possible by firing 80 bolter shots at it every turn.




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MarkyMark wrote:
I dont know, you see me play Lyall the other week, first turn shooting took down his bloodthirster just from weight of fire and I still had more to shoot.

When I am at the club next I'll happily use my normal list and I have a meph model you can use, proof is in the pudding!

Well he did run it pell-mell into your entire army Let's try it out and see.

I played a fun game tonight with 3 other people, 2 vs 2 1k each. My side (BA and DA) faced two FMC. I was able to kill one, but they were both hard to deal with. I sat down witht the chaos player after the game and we discussed Mephiston vs a FMC. He stated that Mephiston will win most of the time vs them.

I'm not saying I am gonna use him often, but if I am playing against chaos, he's probably gonna be fielded. And I would probably field him iny Stormraven, that way I can choose the battle. Damn those FMC can cover the board so quickly.

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:
I played a fun game tonight with 3 other people, 2 vs 2 1k each. My side (BA and DA) faced two FMC. I was able to kill one, but they were both hard to deal with. I sat down witht the chaos player after the game and we discussed Mephiston vs a FMC. He stated that Mephiston will win most of the time vs them.

I'm not saying I am gonna use him often, but if I am playing against chaos, he's probably gonna be fielded. And I would probably field him iny Stormraven, that way I can choose the battle. Damn those FMC can cover the board so quickly.

Tailoring? I say.

Mephiston > non-Iron Armed GUOs, DPs, Heralds, Fateweaver, Flyrants, Lords of Change, Keepers of Secrets.
Bloodthirster, Skarbrand > Mephiston although if they whiff even a single one of their wounds, I.E. cause less than 5, theres a good chance they're dead.

Ideally you want him crushing the rank and file and picking off nasty heralds and vehicles, while the rest of the army shoots the FMCs to death. At the end of the day they're only T6/T5 creatures with 5/4 wounds and crappy saves.







Automatically Appended Next Post:
Going to run Mephi and Co against my Tzeentchian flying circus and see how he performs tomorrow.

We didn't get to go first. We held a lot in reserve. The demons player ironically had a dark eldar ally (made more sense to have the two marine players together). They basically spat out a lot of venom shots and we in turn rolled a lot of 1s and2s for our power armor saves causing us to loose a lot of firepower on the first turn.

Despite all the hate he gets, I agree with the original poster on this... 250 points is a lot but in this paradigm mephiston is doing exactly what be needs to: popping FMC and/or drawing bucketloads of fire away from the bikes... Definite pro-mephiston vote in this case from me.

I'll ask this again - how is Mephiston good vs FMCs? His only shooting attack is a plasma pistol, and obviously that's only hitting 1/6 times (1/3 with Divination), and even then the FMC can dive and pass their grounding test to ignore poor ol' Mephiston.

Does he go after them when they get out of swoop mode and attack your troops? That would make sense, but then it doesn't really matter that they are FMCs anymore. Furthermore, your opponent would probably be better off trying to Vector Strike your Marines rather than leave the safety of the skies to attack them.

What does it say about the BA that Mephiston is more functional in a DA list than a BA list? I really like the core rulebook to 6th edition, but it has made BA miserable to play.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
I'll ask this again - how is Mephiston good vs FMCs? His only shooting attack is a plasma pistol, and obviously that's only hitting 1/6 times (1/3 with Divination), and even then the FMC can dive and pass their grounding test to ignore poor ol' Mephiston.

Does he go after them when they get out of swoop mode and attack your troops? That would make sense, but then it doesn't really matter that they are FMCs anymore. Furthermore, your opponent would probably be better off trying to Vector Strike your Marines rather than leave the safety of the skies to attack them.

He's good against FMCs which charge you, not so much FMCs which fly around and shoot. I'm not worried about FMCs which fly around because I A) Out-shoot them B) Skyfire them with Contemptors and they die. FMCs which charge you (BTs, Daemon Prince with Biomancy) are slightly more iffy, because I don't have anything that can handle them in combat without dying/ shooting everything at it is an inefficient use of firepower.

Like I listed, he's good against most MCs, and if they whiff just one of their wounds, he can insta-death them. This makes charging in a risky prospect.

Ravenwing lack A) Things that can reliably kill MCs in assault and survive and B) Strong anti-vehicle assault, C) Effective anti-Plague Marine options. He's efficient against Dreadknights, Tervigons and Riptides, all now relatively common and inefficient for me to fire at.

Well the DA have their codex and the BA haven't yet, don't fret!

For 250+ points, a reliable vehicle killer could include lascannon Devastators in a Lazerback that could cause Instant Death on many of those concerns and not require the points burned on an alliex contingent...

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
For 250+ points, a reliable vehicle killer could include lascannon Devastators in a Lazerback that could cause Instant Death on many of those concerns and not require the points burned on an alliex contingent...

Yes, Lascannon devs are great at killing vehicles in assault, aren't they? Read before you post.

How are moving Mephy around the table though? Have you got a dedicated transport for him? I mean if he fails his psychic test he's just a ground unit until the next turn

 stubacca wrote:
How are moving Mephy around the table though? Have you got a dedicated transport for him? I mean if he fails his psychic test he's just a ground unit until the next turn

Sang Wings, it's not hugely unreliable... in any case Ravenwing have mobility cornered, it's not an issue, and I play on small boards.

Aren't most MCs immune to instant death? Demons, for sure, right?

I can't think of a MC off-hand that is immune to ID.

Demons lost it all in their new codex.
Nids don't have any.
Chaos marines DP isn't immune.
Dreadknight isn't immune.
Pretty sure the Riptide isn't (but he's got a 2+ save)

Given the choice between massed plasma/missile fire, and just smacking them with Meph....Meph is the better choice of course, but considering the investment, and the fact he has some bad match ups makes him a dicey choice.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
For 250+ points, a reliable vehicle killer could include lascannon Devastators in a Lazerback that could cause Instant Death on many of those concerns and not require the points burned on an alliex contingent...

Yes, Lascannon devs are great at killing vehicles in assault, aren't they? Read before you post.

Think with your brain, why assault what you can shoot before it has a chance to be a problem?

 Carnage43 wrote:
I can't think of a MC off-hand that is immune to ID.

Demons lost it all in their new codex.
Nids don't have any.
Chaos marines DP isn't immune.
Dreadknight isn't immune.
Pretty sure the Riptide isn't (but he's got a 2+ save)

Given the choice between massed plasma/missile fire, and just smacking them with Meph....Meph is the better choice of course, but considering the investment, and the fact he has some bad match ups makes him a dicey choice.

Damn, you're right, he's bad against Dreadknights and Riptides. Nids tend to run Biomancy, so you do get the occasional Iron Arm Flyrant or DP.
Still not a concern for Contemptors, though.





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 Krellnus wrote:

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
For 250+ points, a reliable vehicle killer could include lascannon Devastators in a Lazerback that could cause Instant Death on many of those concerns and not require the points burned on an alliex contingent...

Yes, Lascannon devs are great at killing vehicles in assault, aren't they? Read before you post.

Think with your brain, why assault what you can shoot before it has a chance to be a problem?

Because Ravenwing is a close ranged shooty army that needs assault options when melta fails. Also, I don't own any Devastator models and do not plan to.

"Demons lost it all in their new codex. "

Well at least now the Grey Knights' penchant for force weapons makes sense. I always thought it was beyond lame that the demons were immune to that scheme.

Weren't Nids immune to ID at some point? I've played so many editions I'm getting my wires crossed.

Mhmm, in 4th being in Synapse gave EW.

And for a while in 5th, the Nids were using the 4th edition codex. That's what I was thinking of.

I'd prefer to shoot these things, but susceptibility of all this stuff to ID does give Mephiston some utility beyond what I thought.

the problem is I find shooting quite hit and miss. If you rely on a single phase the dice sometimes won't go in your favour, and it's nice to have a backup assaulter with Str 10 force weapons and preferred enemy and six attacks on the charge.

I think it works because of the power field generator. Although arguably, FNP from a priest is almost as good. I haven't been able to get him to work in 6th myself.

Hm, sure I can fit a priest in to get both...

Yeah, that would be pretty dope. You can bring some BA ASM for some scoring action, too maybe. They are good counter attackers as well.

Ugh he's the price of a bike squad and doesn't synergise with the banner- if he affected the DA units as well it would be worth it. I suppose we'll have to wait for the codex to drop.

If only Brother Corbulo could take a bike or jump pack...

I'm already running them as a suicide melta drop-pod unit... assault marines are kind of terrible this edition, but if they can blow up a tank on the way in they'll get back their points cost!

Actually BA ASM would still be good if they still had init 5 on the assault. But they don't. So they're not.

Why are people saying they use Mephiston against dread knights?

Dread knights have a 2+ armor save and mephiston's sword is AP 3. If you fail to wound, the dread knight will wound you back easily and then kill you with its force weapon.

I think that's a terrible idea!

Yes, DKs remain a problem for RW lists. But unless they pack a Personal Teleporter they're too slow to catch Mephi!

Which they usually do, number one, and number two not really. Just have them trundle along next to other units that Mephiston is heading for. It's not difficult to predict where he'll be going.

It's kind of hard to get the DK into B2B with a single 25mm infantry base, especially if you charge him into a group of 10 strikes or whatever and they surround him during the pile in step. You can basically bubble-wrap him with your opponents' units in cc.

20.000. jesus that's a lot of points.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
For 250+ points, a reliable vehicle killer could include lascannon Devastators in a Lazerback that could cause Instant Death on many of those concerns and not require the points burned on an alliex contingent...

Yes, Lascannon devs are great at killing vehicles in assault, aren't they? Read before you post.

Why are you letting vehicles get that close? Overthinking your "undefeated" army will make you lose games.

Because Melta. I should stop feeding the troll, really.

What does Melta have to do with Lascannon Devs in a Lazerback?
The question stands - why rely on assault to kill vehicles or hard targets?

The higher the AV, the more reliable Mephiston is over lascannons, I suppose. But you are waiting to the last second to do it. I'll admit this is a good use of Mephiston; I just can't figure out how to adapt it to BA.

It's 1 STR higher, and Meph is worse AP (so less likely to wreck the target if/when he does pen). Meph gets 5 attacks and let's say he assaults a Land Raider on turn 2. 5 attacks, 4 hit, 2 pens and a glance, it's not unlikely the LR survives.

The lascannons get 10 shots over those 2 turns, 7 hit, 2 pens and a glance, more likely that the vehicle is wrecked. And if the wreck happens in the first turn they can do something else the second turn.

Mephiston assaulting vehicles is a last-ditch thing when all my melta fails me. Ravenwing is a medium-ranged army with very little long-ranged anti armour but lots of melta and multi-melta.

The reason I take Attack Bikes / Mephiston over Lascannon Devs is because they synergise with the list and can support each other. With Lascannon Devs I have to split my army and defend against backfield threats to the Devastators while losing points to provide them with meat shields and lose salvo on the ABs. Devs also die relatively easily to return fire unless in cover. Ravenwing works because you can bring to bear your entire army against single units of the enemies' force, and having an element that cannot works less efficiently.

Mephiston is there to mow down the rank and file/ counter charge nasties that get too near my list and threaten the bikers, and provides a CC edge that the normal RW lacks.

I'm not sure how he fits into a BA list because it lacks the shooting, 4++ Power field and alpha-strike potential of a RW list.

Hmm. rethinking Mephiston against Riptides, because they can't really hurt him (3A at 5+ to hit, 4+ to wound) while if they fail even a single save (5A, 3+ hit with rerolling ones, 2+ to wound rerolling ones) they're dead.

Land Raiders are a special problem because they *usually* are carrying assault terminators. So whatever gets close enough to frag the thing is going to be assaulted by angry TH/SS terminators the next turn. Possible exception: crisis suits with JSJ using the new 18" fusion blaster.

I usually try to fry land raiders with MM attack bikes and then accept that they will be crushed and set up a shooting gallery to kill the terminators.

370 points can buy quite a bit of anti-armor weaponry that isn't vulnerable to Interceptor, bad reserve rolls, or deep strike accidents. Typhoons and Tornadoes seem to sound good for that.

How do you plan to run Sammael? In an AV 14/10 Land Speeder, his twin-linked assault cannons are pretty mean for anti-armor.

There is no "hand waving" or "rationalizing"--Meph has a place. Players can still use him effectively. He is a T6, 5 wound, super small character with a 2+ save that moves 12". If you are smart, he will easily be worth his points. MEQ still fear him. He is still good counter assault for shooting lists. Is he a "must take"? Absolutely not. Then again, he never was.

This is very interesting to me, as I have not found him that great against shooting armies. That said, I have been terrible with my Blood Angels in 6th Editions, so I have other issues, but I am curious how you classify "shooting lists" or how you get him close enough to assault without getting killed by powerful weapons or just weight of fire from Overwatch?

I haven't faced any truly shooty lists yet, but between the Ravenwing alphastrike and the 2+ 4++ they're usually too busy trying to kill my 2+ cover save command squad to shoot at Mephiston. I also bait with things like solo Sammael and Attack Bikes to absorb fire.

I'm thinking of returning to the Dakka Standard Land Raider to screen him off now with the Tau ignoring cover saves entirely. 4++ bubble for all my bikes is ultimately more reliable than rolling invis (I should roll something other than invisibility soon, this is getting absurd) and the Darkshroud kind of floats around not doing much.

Mephiston got pwned today by Vargard Oberon, I lost the 4++ to a Vindicare shield-breaker round in the first turn (Don't ask.)

I did get an ID wound through in the initial strike but he re-rolled it due to spectators in the challenge.

Necrons are a pain in the butt.

I didn't read the whole thread and sorry if this has been said but

@op you have scouting bikes that can take meltaguns or an attack bike with multimelta they can with scout move go 24'' and wreck most tanks that exist and all for less than 100 points

Scyrell wrote:
I didn't read the whole thread and sorry if this has been said but

@op you have scouting bikes that can take meltaguns or an attack bike with multimelta they can with scout move go 24'' and wreck most tanks that exist and all for less than 100 points

Yes, considering I play Ravenwing I am rather aware of this.

People can always place their tanks far in the back, however, drop pod melta thus mitigates this.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Mephiston got pwned today by Vargard Oberon, I lost the 4++ to a Vindicare shield-breaker round in the first turn (Don't ask.)

I did get an ID wound through in the initial strike but he re-rolled it due to spectators in the challenge.

Necrons are a pain in the butt.

Ouch, that's unfortunate. Luckily Necrons don't have a lot of AP2 shooting if I remember correctly, so if Mephiston can get into combat he should do quite well.

No, they don't, but Warscythes :( It's pretty absurd how good Necrons are in assault

It was a silly three way game though, and I was fielding Deathwing for gaks and giggles, normally I'd just shoot them to death.