Switch Theme:

Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit  [RSS] 

Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/06 13:01:33


Post by: cryhavok


Sooooo.... You make this cool model and make up some cool new rules for it, but I don't think it was play tested at all. What am I talking about? Well the new tau bomber has this bomb generator. How it works is AFTER a bombing run you get a roll and assuming you don't roll a 1, you get a bomb to use later. See the problem is, you don't start with a bomb.... and can't get a bomb till after you have used one... epic fail imho.

If I'm wrong though someone please explain how it really works as I would love for this to not be completely useless.


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/06 13:09:38


Post by: marv335


It starts with one.

The key phrase is "another pulse bomb is created"


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/06 15:11:41


Post by: BlueRift


For me, the real issue is that you're paying to have more Str 5 Ap 5 shots. That you'll be lucky if you do more than a couple of times. MEQs and TEQs will just laugh when you drop a bomb on them, and then you roll a 1 and can't even do it again... As if having unlimited Str 5 AP 5 bombs would be game breaking in some way. Ignoring the amazing flamer that has unlimited shots (Helldrake).


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/06 15:25:49


Post by: Nafarious


From what I see I would rather load up my fast attack slots with path finder teams and pirahnas. I may still get one, but I'm not too sure right now. The thing seems like a jack of all trades master of none sort of thing where it is almost a cross between a devilfish and a hammer head, but doesn't master at dropping pie plates or shooting out a lot of dakka.


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/06 15:27:28


Post by: Iranna


 marv335 wrote:
It starts with one.

The key phrase is "another pulse bomb is created"


That's not true, if there isn't a "pulse bomb" listed in the wargear entry for that unit then it doesn't have it.

Iranna.


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/06 16:26:57


Post by: Savageconvoy


I'm glad they stopped the use of missile drones in the FAQ instead of clearing up this.

So I guess there are two ways to house rule it. Either say it starts with 1 or it has to generate 1 to start. RAW though it is clearly unusable. I'm glad we get things like this, the Deamon chariot that can't move and fire it's flamer, Darkshrouds with stealth that can't get stealth and missile lock on non blast missiles. GW FinePrint™ everyone.


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/06 16:56:32


Post by: Leth


When you look for something to bitch about, the room is full of female dogs.


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/06 17:04:46


Post by: Savageconvoy


 Leth wrote:
When you look for something to bitch about, the room is full of female dogs.
Oh great. I was wondering when someone would come in and trivialize a valid point. But seriously, keep adding helpful comments to the thread.


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/06 17:15:39


Post by: marv335


Seriously, this is right up there with "Terminators don't wear Terminator Armour"


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/06 17:25:16


Post by: Iranna


 marv335 wrote:
Seriously, this is right up there with "Terminators don't wear Terminator Armour"


Codex Grey Knights Pg. 91 wrote:
Terminator Squad....
Wargear:
Terminator Armour


The bomber is permitted to make another bomb after it performs a bombing run on a D6 roll of 2+.

This doesn't matter, as it has no bomb with which to make a bombing run in the first place.

Iranna.


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2012/09/04 22:23:20


Post by: generalchaos34


Well, unless you play with complete jerks and ultra rules lawyers i cant see anyone not letting you have a pulse bomb to start


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/06 18:44:17


Post by: tomjoad


This is such a nonissue! It is CLEARLY intended to start with one bomb. ANY tournament FAQ would rule that it starts with one bomb. After decades of GW making this kind of error and it pretty much always being ruled as it was clearly intended to be, what kind of pissant would still argue that, on an issue like this, strict RAW is the right way to roll?


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/06 20:42:46


Post by: Dracos


House rule it if you want, but these guys are talking about what the codex actually says.

Surely it will be FAQ'd, but that doesn't erase what it presently says until such a time as it is actually put in an FAQ.


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/07 00:14:57


Post by: Vineheart01


i would just let you start with one, theres no way they intended the unit to be useless.

Then again my Zogwort is stil useless....


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/07 00:19:05


Post by: phatonic


 Vineheart01 wrote:
i would just let you start with one, theres no way they intended the unit to be useless.

Then again my Zogwort is stil useless....


Zogwort 2013
Zogwort 2013!
*repeats to click on screen*


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/07 00:20:39


Post by: Vineheart01


If its not in a FAQ it means nothing, i know of that thread. And the GW website is down so i cant see if it got quicklike added to the FAQ as of late either.


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/07 00:24:39


Post by: phatonic


 Vineheart01 wrote:
If its not in a FAQ it means nothing, i know of that thread. And the GW website is down so i cant see if it got quicklike added to the FAQ as of late either.


Will be updated in the codex we ¨Might¨ Recive this year.
..tough tau should know better and take bombs with em, even orks do!

But not to sidetrack anything... ohh what the heck... i'll sidetrack anyway!





Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/07 00:35:17


Post by: Kingsley


 marv335 wrote:
Seriously, this is right up there with "Terminators don't wear Terminator Armour"


Yep. Anyone trying to pull stuff like this would get laughed out of any serious event. RAW is one thing, but it often jars with common sense, as anyone who has ever looked closely into the rules surrounding a Wraithlord knows.


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/07 00:42:17


Post by: Dracoknight


....it says pulsebomb generator, and you presume its EMPTY on arrival?...

Seriously?...some people....

It says: "This mechanism produces and contains a ball of incadescent plasma which hangs beneath the bomber, ready to be dropped when a suitable target is reached"

Sooo... did you miss the italic? its a description, not pure fluff...


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/07 12:46:55


Post by: Iranna


Dracoknight wrote:
....it says pulsebomb generator, and you presume its EMPTY on arrival?...

Seriously?...some people....

It says: "This mechanism produces and contains a ball of incadescent plasma which hangs beneath the bomber, ready to be dropped when a suitable target is reached"

Sooo... did you miss the italic? its a description, not pure fluff...


We're arguing RAW, not RAI. I'm sure everyone would let people start with a bomb no problem.

However, you're using the description of the weapon in questions (i.e fluff) to argue your case, which is completely irrelevant.

Under the rules section of the bomb generator, it does not say that it comes with a bomb as standard. Therefore, it cannot perform a bombing run in the first instance and therefore, cannot generate "another" bomb.

Also, your tone is really not appreciated. By assuming the worst in people, you're just going to get flakk for it. Do yourself a favour and be civil when people are debating a point.

Iranna.


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/07 13:32:08


Post by: Nurgle's Head Cheese


Occasionally certain marine entries state the that they have ammo (Thousand Sons, Sternguard etc.) But most entries just say Bolter and do not mention the ammo. By using the OP logic Vanilla marines etc. cannot shoot their guns because ammo is not listed. Geez, games in your gaming circle must really suck.


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/07 14:19:24


Post by: Iranna


 Nurgle's Head Cheese wrote:
Occasionally certain marine entries state the that they have ammo (Thousand Sons, Sternguard etc.) But most entries just say Bolter and do not mention the ammo. By using the OP logic Vanilla marines etc. cannot shoot their guns because ammo is not listed. Geez, games in your gaming circle must really suck.


What are you talking about? Marines can fire their bolters, which have their own profile.

Sternguard, Rubric Marines etc. Have a rule(s) regarding their different ammo types, and this is represented through the addition of different profiles that their bolters can use.

Please, instead of trying to be presumptuous in thinking that I, or any other gamers, play this way, understand that we are arguing what the rules actually say. This doesn't mean that's how we play it.

Also, please know the rules you are arguing, otherwise you look quite foolish when people prove you wrong.

Iranna.


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/07 14:23:47


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


 Iranna wrote:
 Nurgle's Head Cheese wrote:
Occasionally certain marine entries state the that they have ammo (Thousand Sons, Sternguard etc.) But most entries just say Bolter and do not mention the ammo. By using the OP logic Vanilla marines etc. cannot shoot their guns because ammo is not listed. Geez, games in your gaming circle must really suck.


What are you talking about? Marines can fire their bolters, which have their own profile.

Sternguard, Rubric Marines etc. Have a rule(s) regarding their different ammo types, and this is represented through the addition of different profiles that their bolters can use.

Please, instead of trying to be presumptuous in thinking that I, or any other gamers, play this way, understand that we are arguing what the rules actually say. This doesn't mean that's how we play it.

Also, please know the rules you are arguing, otherwise you look quite foolish when people prove you wrong.

Iranna.


He's saying the Pulse Bomb generator works like the bolter; it is a weapon that has ammo (like the bolter) that can be regenerated on a 2+.


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/07 15:18:59


Post by: Iranna


 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

He's saying the Pulse Bomb generator works like the bolter; it is a weapon that has ammo (like the bolter) that can be regenerated on a 2+.


Precisely, that's why he's wrong.

Iranna.


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/07 15:36:34


Post by: Orktavius


Pulse bomb isn't wargear, the pulse bomb generator is which is why it doesn't have to list a pulse bomb under the wargear. The pulse bomb generator is no different than a bolter.

Basically, the pulse bomb generator is the weapon, pulse bombs are it's ammo and on a roll of a one after firing it the weapons runs out of ammo. There is zero need for a pulse bomb to be listed in the wargear for it to start with one, pulsebombs ARE NOT wargear.


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/07 15:46:13


Post by: Iranna


"...Immediately after the Sun Shark makes a bombing run, roll a D6. On a score of 2+, another pulse bomb is created and the Sun Shark can make another bombing run later in the game. On the roll of a 1, the pulse bomb generator's power fails - no more bombs can be created, and no more bombing runs can therefore be performed." -Tau Codex Pg. 69

"... Unlike other weapons, bombs are used during the flyer's movement phase, in a special kind of attack known as a bombing run. A Flyer can drop up to one bomb in the movement phase..." Rulebook Pg. 81

So, as we can see, a bomb is a weapon.

Weapons are listed under a unit's entry.

The Sun Shark has no "Pulse Bomb". How can it make a bombing run?

Iranna.


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/07 16:10:56


Post by: Orktavius


Bombs are weapons that need to be included in wargear, pulse bombs are not, Pulse bombs are the firing mode of a pulse bomb generator. The hammer head doesn't have overcharge listed under it's wargear when it takes the ion cannon and yet it can fire overcharged shots. Pulse bombs, while they have their own profile are nothing more than the firing method of the pulse bomb generator and do not need to be listed on their own.


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/07 16:17:01


Post by: Iranna


Orktavius wrote:
Bombs are weapons that need to be included in wargear, pulse bombs are not, Pulse bombs are the firing mode of a pulse bomb generator. The hammer head doesn't have overcharge listed under it's wargear when it takes the ion cannon and yet it can fire overcharged shots. Pulse bombs, while they have their own profile are nothing more than the firing method of the pulse bomb generator and do not need to be listed on their own.


"...Immediately after the Sun Shark makes a bombing run, roll a D6. On a score of 2+, another pulse bomb is created and the Sun Shark can make another bombing run later in the game. On the roll of a 1, the pulse bomb generator's power fails - no more bombs can be created, and no more bombing runs can therefore be performed." -Tau Codex Pg. 69

Sorry, where does it say that the Pulse Bomb Generator counts as a bomb for the purposes of a bombing run?

It is not a weapon.

The Pulse Bomb is. Not the Generator.

As it stands, the Pulse Bomb is not a "weapon profile" (as you stated) of the Pulse Bomb Generator, it is an actual weapon.

Therefore, you have no means of performing an initial bombing run in order to generate additional bombs.

Iranna.


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/07 16:29:59


Post by: gpfunk


It's a very clear typo.

Rules lawyers are correct in the most technical sense. It has no bomb to start off with, therefore it can't make a bombing run in order to roll for generating a new one.

In reality most of your opponents will realize that it was a typo and not a rule meant to screw over the Tau flyer and will allow you to have a bomb at the start of the game. A tournament organizer will probably rule the same way.


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/07 16:33:29


Post by: Orktavius


pulse bombs are ammo, pulse bomb generator is the weapon.

Pulse bombs are the firing profile of the pulse bomb generator, not a piece of wargear. Same as over-charged shots on ion weapons are part of the firing profile and not wargear.

If you wish to be intentionally obstinate there is nothing I can do for you and you can continue to wallow with your head in the sand by yourself as nothing anyone says will ever dislodge you from your false position that pulse bombs are wargear as opposed to a firing profile.


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/07 16:36:02


Post by: Iranna


Orktavius wrote:
pulse bombs are ammo, pulse bomb generator is the weapon.

Pulse bombs are the firing profile of the pulse bomb generator, not a piece of wargear. Same as over-charged shots on ion weapons are part of the firing profile and not wargear.

If you wish to be intentionally obstinate there is nothing I can do for you and you can continue to wallow with your head in the sand by yourself as nothing anyone says will ever dislodge you from your false position that pulse bombs are wargear as opposed to a firing profile.


And yet, you are yet to quote any relevant rules regarding this.

Let's try again:

"...Immediately after the Sun Shark makes a bombing run, roll a D6. On a score of 2+, another pulse bomb is created and the Sun Shark can make another bombing run later in the game. On the roll of a 1, the pulse bomb generator's power fails - no more bombs can be created, and no more bombing runs can therefore be performed." -Tau Codex Pg. 69

Now, show me where it counts as a bomb for the purposes of a bombing run.

Iranna.



Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/07 16:42:58


Post by: Orktavius


pg 66 under pulse bomb. the ammo for said weapon.


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/07 16:56:05


Post by: kelewan


At the the back of the codex in reference it is listed as one use only which I'm interpreting as it starts with one


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/07 17:03:02


Post by: Savageconvoy


Seeker missiles are one use, but it lists how many vehicles start with.

Nobody is saying that you can't use the bomber, they are just pointing out the typo. It's really simple
RAW- you can't make bombs and it doesn't start with one.
RAI- it starts with one bomb

There's no need to get upset at other people for a GW typo.


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2014/08/05 10:21:07


Post by: Iranna


Orktavius wrote:
pg 66 under pulse bomb. the ammo for said weapon.


Sorry, I must be missing something - can you quote for me where it says that the Generator is in fact a weapon?

Iranna.


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/07 17:47:31


Post by: Dracoknight


The major issue i have then is:

Who is going to deny a tau player to actually use the bomb?

I dunno why this discussion even exsist to be honest, is it so that every rule lawyer is going to say "no you cant bomb because you dont have one" when you try to do a bombing run?

Its obviously a miswriting or a missed note.


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/07 17:52:14


Post by: Iranna


Dracoknight wrote:
The major issue i have then is:

Who is going to deny a tau player to actually use the bomb?

I dunno why this discussion even exsist to be honest, is it so that every rule lawyer is going to say "no you cant bomb because you dont have one" when you try to do a bombing run?

Its obviously a miswriting or a missed note.


No one, I believe, would stop a person from doing so.

The debate is about people not being able to differentiate from RAW and RAI.

Iranna.


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/07 18:06:03


Post by: Nurgle's Head Cheese


Orktavious and Cthulu Spy are right on target regarding Ammo etc. It appears the OP is going to argue his point no matter how many of us explain things logically to him.

Peace out.



Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/07 18:13:01


Post by: HawkWall


Wait, wait, WHOA!!!

Are you telling me, that if you roll a 1 on the d6 bomb generation roll after the first bombing run (Assuming the FAQ corrects it is equipped with a bomb at the beginning), you would lose the weapon for the remainder of the game!!??
Please tell me this isn't true!! (not that i'd ever take the bomber in a million years, but still..)


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/07 18:15:24


Post by: cryhavok


 Nurgle's Head Cheese wrote:
Orktavious and Cthulu Spy are right on target regarding Ammo etc. It appears the OP is going to argue his point no matter how many of us explain things logically to him.

Peace out.

Actually I (the OP) didnt say much in this thread, someone else has been arguing it. My OP was meant only to point out GW failure, so that people can be aware and check any rulings thier event organizers make on it.

The rules lawyer vs rule maker-uper arguing, has however been amusing.


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/07 18:17:39


Post by: Archonate


It's not even a typo.
The Sunshark Bomber has a Pulse Bomb Generator. It doesn't NEED to specifically state that this is carrying a bomb... That's like insisting that Pulse Rifles specifically state that they're carrying ammunition.


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/07 18:19:54


Post by: Neronoxx


HawkWall wrote:
Wait, wait, WHOA!!!

Are you telling me, that if you roll a 1 on the d6 bomb generation roll after the first bombing run (Assuming the FAQ corrects it is equipped with a bomb at the beginning), you would lose the weapon for the remainder of the game!!??
Please tell me this isn't true!! (not that i'd ever take the bomber in a million years, but still..)


Yes, that is correct. You would lose the ability to generate additional bombs. Also, note that the drones that it is equipped with follow the rules for embarked passengers, which means that if the flyer moves more than 6 inches...
The flyer is all sorts of broken. It'll be FAQ'd i'm sure, but for now i would avoid using them in tourneys.

And Nurgles Head Cheese? Iranna isn't the OP. Make sure you know who is posting what before you insult someone. I'm sure cryhavok wouldnt appreciate it, especially since Iranna is right by RAW ruling. Unless you or someone else can find where the generator is referred to as a weapon explicitly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
cryhavok wrote:
 Nurgle's Head Cheese wrote:
Orktavious and Cthulu Spy are right on target regarding Ammo etc. It appears the OP is going to argue his point no matter how many of us explain things logically to him.

Peace out.

Actually I (the OP) didnt say much in this thread, someone else has been arguing it. My OP was meant only to point out GW failure, so that people can be aware and check any rulings thier event organizers make on it.

The rules lawyer vs rule maker-uper arguing, has however been amusing.


It's always amusing to watch, no? The rules lawyers state the rules, and then, while calling them cheaters, the "fair and honest" players make up every different interpretation or add-on to "justify" their "honesty" without actually reading the whole, or even part in some cases, of the rules.
Please note i am not directing this at anyone in this thread, it is just a very common occurence i have noted when discussing rules.


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/07 18:48:59


Post by: ghastli


This might be helpful:

From the valkyrie entry in the IG codex:

"Wargear:
Multilaser
2 Hellstrike missiles
Searchlight
Extra armor"

The hellstrike missiles, being a one shot weapon similar to a bomb, are listed in the wargear. Bolters are not one shot weapons, so not listing their ammo is irrelevant. If the hellstrike missile was not listed in the wargear, I could not shoot it.


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/07 19:25:02


Post by: Waaghboss Grobnub


wish i could add more instead of only asking a question... But alas,.. cant find a working PDF yet.

Can you even make a bombing run without a bomb?



Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/07 19:26:01


Post by: Andilus Greatsword


 Waaghboss Grobnub wrote:
wish i could add more instead of only asking a question... But alas,.. cant find a working PDF yet.

Can you even make a bombing run without a bomb?

Shhh don't speak of piracy here.


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/07 19:43:30


Post by: Archonate


Actually the real question is why are TL Burst Cannons and TL SMS the same cost in the Hammerhead and Skyray profiles?

Is there ANY reason whatsoever to take a TL BC over the TL SMS? Same S, same AP, same amount of shots, both re-roll misses, but the SMS has longer range and ignore cover.


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/07 19:45:12


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


 Archonate wrote:
Actually the real question is why are TL Burst Cannons and TL SMS the same cost in the Hammerhead and Skyray profiles?

Is there ANY reason whatsoever to take a TL BC over the TL SMS? Same S, same AP, same amount of shots, both re-roll misses, but the SMS has longer range and ignore cover.


Yeah, sounds like bad internal balance there. Perhaps we are missing something? Is there some sort of gear that benefits BC in particular?


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/07 20:34:35


Post by: Darkintel


I mean why stop with it only having one bomb when it starts the game then? Why not play it that it has 50? It's not mentioned anywhere, so why assume it's one in the first place? RAW right now it very much needs to be FAQ'd


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/07 22:13:41


Post by: Archonate


You guys, these Pulse bombs are not the same as the single-use missiles. They are fired from a Pulse Bomb GENERATOR.
RAW are that you drop a bomb GENERATED by the Pulse bomb GENERATOR and then test to see if it ran out of power.
The GENERATOR is the device making the attack. Guns don't specify that they have ammo. The bomb generator doesn't need to specify that it has power to start with.


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/07 23:02:06


Post by: chrisrawr


 Archonate wrote:
You guys, these Pulse bombs are not the same as the single-use missiles. They are fired from a Pulse Bomb GENERATOR.
RAW are that you drop a bomb GENERATED by the Pulse bomb GENERATOR and then test to see if it ran out of power.
The GENERATOR is the device making the attack. Guns don't specify that they have ammo. The bomb generator doesn't need to specify that it has power to start with.


This isn't how 40k rules work. There is no set of rules to describe how events happen in the manner you have portrayed them. Bombing runs use bombs, which are pieces of wargear with weapons profiles.

For any model to use a weapon profile, that profile has to be present or added in some way to their unit entry under wargear.

The pulse generator does not 'fire' a bomb. It is not a weapon, as it has no profile. RAW, it is a wargear with a mechanic that adds a pulse bomb to the bomber's wargear.

To do so, you follow its rules. To follow its rules, you must have a pulse bomb and make a bombing run. The make a bombing run with a pulse bomb, you must have a pulse bomb. Nothing in the rules grants the bomber a pulse bomb before this.


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/08 00:24:33


Post by: Wolfnid420


The pulse bomb says its a one time use in its profile.

The pulse bomb generator is a support system that has a rule that says AFTER it makes a bombing run it can generate one.

The Tau Bomber does NOT have a pulse bomb(Which is a Ranged Weapon) in its Wargear and therefore does NOT have a bomb to start the game.

As much as i hate to say it Iranna is 100% correct in RAW, HOWEVER! only the biggest douchebags that play this game wont let you make a bombing run with your bomber.

Technically as it stands the bomber is useless and the ONLY thing that you can do is deploy its drones, shoot its missiles and fly the feth away before it dies and gives up a kill point lol


lol i feel like i just got ninja'd


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/08 02:14:12


Post by: Wraithlord


I smell a troll on our hands.


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/08 02:37:43


Post by: grendel083


Shouldn't this be in the YMTC forum? It's a rules debate after all, not a tactics one.
RAW I can definatly see the point, there is no bomb listed to make the first attack. I wouldn't enforce this in a game however...


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/08 03:42:40


Post by: AgeOfEgos


 grendel083 wrote:
Shouldn't this be in the YMTC forum? It's a rules debate after all, not a tactics one.
RAW I can definatly see the point, there is no bomb listed to make the first attack. I wouldn't enforce this in a game however...



Yep--moved to the right forum, thanks.


As an aside, true RAW discussions of this nature (No Terminator armor) tend to escalate---so please try to keep it civil and if you get the point where you feel frustrated, just remember the guys you are debating with are very unlikely to ever be across a table from you--and this is just a discussion. Thanks!


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/08 04:24:57


Post by: Miri


Neronoxx wrote:

Also, note that the drones that it is equipped with follow the rules for embarked passengers, which means that if the flyer moves more than 6 inches...



So, is the last sentence of the second paragraph right hand column on page 48 of the Codex considered fluff or rule? If it is considered fluff then what you said is true, if it is rule and the drones are considered turrets (the specific listing of this in the Sun Sharks write up over rides the general drone write up) then they could and would fire as one of the 4 weapons (per flyer rule page 80 BRB) at the bombers BS.


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/08 04:48:15


Post by: Archonate


chrisrawr wrote:
 Archonate wrote:
You guys, these Pulse bombs are not the same as the single-use missiles. They are fired from a Pulse Bomb GENERATOR.
RAW are that you drop a bomb GENERATED by the Pulse bomb GENERATOR and then test to see if it ran out of power.
The GENERATOR is the device making the attack. Guns don't specify that they have ammo. The bomb generator doesn't need to specify that it has power to start with.


This isn't how 40k rules work. There is no set of rules to describe how events happen in the manner you have portrayed them. Bombing runs use bombs, which are pieces of wargear with weapons profiles.

For any model to use a weapon profile, that profile has to be present or added in some way to their unit entry under wargear.

The pulse generator does not 'fire' a bomb. It is not a weapon, as it has no profile. RAW, it is a wargear with a mechanic that adds a pulse bomb to the bomber's wargear.

To do so, you follow its rules. To follow its rules, you must have a pulse bomb and make a bombing run. The make a bombing run with a pulse bomb, you must have a pulse bomb. Nothing in the rules grants the bomber a pulse bomb before this.

The bomb is not in the vehicle's wargear because it is does not exist until the moment of the bombing run.

It is both produced and dropped at the moment of the bombing run.

It is "added to the wargear" right before it is dropped, just as it is in subsequent runs (assuming the 2+ roll succeeded.)

The generator doesn't have a profile because it is not the bomb. This does not mean that its mechanic of producing bombs should be ignored on the first bombing run.

The mechanic of this vehicle is obviously not reconciled in the BRB.

Perhaps my interpretation is based purely on RAI.


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/08 04:59:18


Post by: Happyjew


 Iranna wrote:
 marv335 wrote:
Seriously, this is right up there with "Terminators don't wear Terminator Armour"


Codex Grey Knights Pg. 91 wrote:
Terminator Squad....
Wargear:
Terminator Armour


The bomber is permitted to make another bomb after it performs a bombing run on a D6 roll of 2+.

This doesn't matter, as it has no bomb with which to make a bombing run in the first place.

Iranna.


Yes, yes GK terminators have Termie armour listed in hteir Wargear. You know who don't? Black Templars.

I was wondering how I missed this thread until I finally noticed it had been pulled from Tactics...


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/08 05:38:20


Post by: Lungpickle


Well you make sure all tau bombers are nerfed in your games as for myself and logic minded people will allow the pidley bomb to be dropped FAQ or not.

Plus ill ask this again , where in the brb is raw/rai described as end all interpretations, by the makers of the game?


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/08 12:51:36


Post by: rigeld2


Lungpickle wrote:
Well you make sure all tau bombers are nerfed in your games as for myself and logic minded people will allow the pidley bomb to be dropped FAQ or not.

Yeah because there's someone in this thread saying that this is how it should be played.

Plus ill ask this again , where in the brb is raw/rai described as end all interpretations, by the makers of the game?

I have no idea what you're asking here.


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/08 13:01:10


Post by: Happyjew


Lungpickle wrote:
Well you make sure all tau bombers are nerfed in your games as for myself and logic minded people will allow the pidley bomb to be dropped FAQ or not.


Who says they play this way? Who has ever played vehicles cannot take invuln saves (except in 2 specific instances - Bjorn and DEldar vehicles)? Who has ever played that models without eyes cannot shoot nor charge? This isn't about which is right. RAW it doesn't work. It is that simple. The problem is people arguing RAI against RAW or claiming RAI and not specifying that they are not the written rule.


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/08 13:03:52


Post by: PipeAlley


History lesson:

I think it was the 4th Ed. BGB that explicitly stated that models entered combat with enough ammunition for the battle (length of the game).

Also it was noted that an Ork fires off a magazine's worth of ammo every shooting phase whereas a SM fires a couple of shots but still manages to hit twice as often.

So the norm would be every weapon has enough shots (andor at least one) for the game, and the exception would be limited ammo and/or 1 shot onlys which we have lots o' example: Combi-Bolters, death strikes missiles, Burna bombs.


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/08 13:05:01


Post by: Monster Rain


In other news, Space Marines aren't able to move because they don't have feet listed on their wargear entry.

But seriously, it seems to me that the rules for the bomb generator can be easily interpreted as being perfectly functional.


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/08 13:08:14


Post by: Happyjew


 Monster Rain wrote:
In other news, Space Marines aren't able to move because they don't have feet listed on their wargear entry.

But seriously, it seems to me that the rules for the bomb generator can be easily interpreted as being perfectly functional.


Interpreted as such? Of course it can. Nobody is saying that they would not allow their opponent to start with a bomb (HYWPI) They are claiming that the bomber does not currently start with a bomb (RAW).


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/08 13:18:11


Post by: rigeld2


 Monster Rain wrote:
In other news, Space Marines aren't able to move because they don't have feet listed on their wargear entry.

If this claim had any basis in rules I'd agree with you.
It doesn't.


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/08 13:21:27


Post by: Happyjew


 Monster Rain wrote:
In other news, Space Marines aren't able to move because they don't have feet listed on their wargear entry.


What page says you need feet in order to move? I can't seem to find it.


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/08 13:36:35


Post by: WarlordRob117


RAW and RAI aside, by this logic no weapon can fire because it doesnt specifically state that its starts with an ammunition source... Bottom line? stop trying to read into things and play the damn game... more confusing things can be argued on YMDC rather than people bellyaching about how this weapon doesnt start with ammo, therefore cant shoot...


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/08 13:39:55


Post by: rigeld2


 WarlordRob117 wrote:
RAW and RAI aside, by this logic no weapon can fire because it doesnt specifically state that its starts with an ammunition source...

Not true at all.
To make a bombing run you need a bomb. The bomber doesn't start with a bomb, just a bomb generator.
You can't roll for the bomb generator until after you drop a bomb. Something you don't have.

Actual rules there, not straw man assumptions.

Bottom line? stop trying to read into things and play the damn game... more confusing things can be argued on YMDC rather than people bellyaching about how this weapon doesnt start with ammo, therefore cant shoot...

The generator isn't a weapon - there's no profile. At least understand the discussion before denigrating everyone participating in the thread.


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/08 13:50:08


Post by: grendel083


No idea where this talk of ammo is coming from. The bomb is a weapon. It has it's own weapon profile. It is not amunition for a weapon.
It is a weapon that is one use only. A weapon that the Bomber sadly lacks.


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/08 13:50:19


Post by: WarlordRob117


rigeld2 wrote:

Not true at all.
To make a bombing run you need a bomb. The bomber doesn't start with a bomb, just a bomb generator.
You can't roll for the bomb generator until after you drop a bomb. Something you don't have.

Actual rules there, not straw man assumptions.

The generator isn't a weapon - there's no profile. At least understand the discussion before denigrating everyone participating in the thread.


Yes true at all... by that logic, you'd need bolter rounds to fire a bolter... and since the bolter entry says nothing about bolter rounds, then you cant fire it... maybe, just maybe the GW crew thought we had a little more common sense to figure it out, especially since this isnt the first time GW has released a rulebook

Furthermore, to say that the generator itself is not a weapon/deployment system is absurd... under the wings of a burna-bomba, what are those round things that get dropped on people? are there any other devices under said tau-bomber that can be used to drop bombs? no? ok... then logically the bombs are dropped from said generator, and since it is obvious the "weapon" cannot drop more than one bomb, because it cannot house more than one bomb, then, by extension the space is occupied by a bomb at the beginning of the game... if you feel differently, then clearly those bolter magazines are empty and we are all wasting our time playing this game...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 grendel083 wrote:
No idea where this talk of ammo is coming from. The bomb is a weapon. It has it's own weapon profile. It is not amunition for a weapon.
It is a weapon that is one use only. A weapon that the Bomber sadly lacks.


really? then tell me how the a bolter works without a projectile? in the entry for a bolter it simply says bolter, it doesnt say bolter round, for example like sternguard where it actually describes the ammunition used... with what you are saying, a bolter round is a weapon and therefore seperate from a bolter... meaning the bolter is just a useless gun the person is carrying...


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/08 13:53:33


Post by: grendel083


 WarlordRob117 wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:

Not true at all.
To make a bombing run you need a bomb. The bomber doesn't start with a bomb, just a bomb generator.
You can't roll for the bomb generator until after you drop a bomb. Something you don't have.

Actual rules there, not straw man assumptions.

The generator isn't a weapon - there's no profile. At least understand the discussion before denigrating everyone participating in the thread.


Yes true at all... by that logic, you'd need bolter rounds to fire a bolter... and since the bolter entry says nothing about bolter rounds, then you cant fire it... maybe, just maybe the GW crew thought we had a little more common sense to figure it out, especially since this isnt the first time GW has released a rulebook

Furthermore, to say that the generator itself is not a weapon/deployment system is absurd... under the wings of a burna-bomba, what are those round things that get dropped on people? are there any other devices under said tau-bomber that can be used to drop bombs? no? ok... then logically the bombs are dropped from said generator, and since it is obvious the "weapon" cannot drop more than one bomb, because it cannot house more than one bomb, then, by extension the space is occupied by a bomb at the beginning of the game... if you feel differently, then clearly those bolter magazines are empty and we are all wasting our time playing this game...

The rules of the game do not require Ammo. ANy mention of ammo anywhere is purly fluff. Special Bolter Rounds for Sternguard are different weapon profiles. There are no rules for ammo.
And the generator is a special rule for generating bombs. It has no weapons profile.
Remember we're talking rules here. No one is suggesting actualy enforcing this in a game. But the rules as they stand, there is no bomb.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 WarlordRob117 wrote:
 grendel083 wrote:
No idea where this talk of ammo is coming from. The bomb is a weapon. It has it's own weapon profile. It is not amunition for a weapon.
It is a weapon that is one use only. A weapon that the Bomber sadly lacks.


really? then tell me how the a bolter works without a projectile? in the entry for a bolter it simply says bolter, it doesnt say bolter round, for example like sternguard where it actually describes the ammunition used... with what you are saying, a bolter round is a weapon and therefore seperate from a bolter... meaning the bolter is just a useless gun the person is carrying...

You're getting background and fluff horiibly mixed up with rules.
Find a rule for ammunition. There are none.
It's simply not required. We're talking rules remember.


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/08 14:00:06


Post by: WarlordRob117


Right and rules as is, no weapon can fire... at all... there being no rules for ammo is the exact argument you are making... since they dont exist we cant play the game... and who said it isnt a weapon? did we ever stop to think that bomb is the generator profile? hence why it can only fire one at a time?

again, with this whole RAW and RAI bull... stop trying to grasp for straws, and just play the bomber...


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/08 14:02:56


Post by: rigeld2


 WarlordRob117 wrote:
Yes true at all... by that logic, you'd need bolter rounds to fire a bolter... and since the bolter entry says nothing about bolter rounds, then you cant fire it... maybe, just maybe the GW crew thought we had a little more common sense to figure it out, especially since this isnt the first time GW has released a rulebook

I have permission to make a shooting attack with a shooting weapon.
Bolers have a shooting weapon profile.
I have permission to use a bolter in a shooting attack.

To have permission to make a bombing run, I need a bomb.
Does the bomber have a bomb? Or a bomb generator?

Furthermore, to say that the generator itself is not a weapon/deployment system is absurd... under the wings of a burna-bomba, what are those round things that get dropped on people? are there any other devices under said tau-bomber that can be used to drop bombs? no? ok... then logically the bombs are dropped from said generator, and since it is obvious the "weapon" cannot drop more than one bomb, because it cannot house more than one bomb, then, by extension the space is occupied by a bomb at the beginning of the game...

You just used the word "logically" with regard to a game peopled by walking blue fish men, demons, alien bugs, people who live for millennia...

Read the bombing run rules. Bombing runs are different from normal shooting attacks. So comparing them to a bolter is incorrect.


if you feel differently, then clearly those bolter magazines are empty and we are all wasting our time playing this game...

Cite the rules requirement for ammunition for a normal shooting attacks.
There is a requirement for bombing runs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 WarlordRob117 wrote:
Right and rules as is, no weapon can fire... at all... there being no rules for ammo is the exact argument you are making... since they dont exist we cant play the game... and who said it isnt a weapon? did we ever stop to think that bomb is the generator profile? hence why it can only fire one at a time?

No, normal shooting attacks don't require "ammunition".
Bombing runs do.

It's not a weapon because it doesn't have a profile and there's no rule for it calling it a weapon.


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/08 14:24:54


Post by: McNinja


 WarlordRob117 wrote:
Right and rules as is, no weapon can fire... at all... there being no rules for ammo is the exact argument you are making... since they dont exist we cant play the game... and who said it isnt a weapon? did we ever stop to think that bomb is the generator profile? hence why it can only fire one at a time?

again, with this whole RAW and RAI bull... stop trying to grasp for straws, and just play the bomber...
Read the rules. Bolters, Heavy Bolters, Ion Accelerators, and Missile Launchers all have weapon profiles, which is all that is required by the rules in order to fire those weapons. The bomb generator and pulse bombs are two different things. The bomb is not the profile of the generator, it is the profile of the bomb that is dropped. The bomber does not start with a bomb, so it cannot make a bomb. The Generator and pulse bomb are just as separate as a Voidraven and an Implosion Missile.


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/08 14:45:49


Post by: FuzzyLogik


'' no more bombs can be created, and no more bombing runs can therefore be performed."

To me this just says, do not take this unit. Sure its 1/6 but quite frankly, in a competitive game do you really want to spend points on a unit that might only have 1 shot the whole game?


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/08 14:53:01


Post by: chrisrawr


 Archonate wrote:
chrisrawr wrote:
 Archonate wrote:
You guys, these Pulse bombs are not the same as the single-use missiles. They are fired from a Pulse Bomb GENERATOR.
RAW are that you drop a bomb GENERATED by the Pulse bomb GENERATOR and then test to see if it ran out of power.
The GENERATOR is the device making the attack. Guns don't specify that they have ammo. The bomb generator doesn't need to specify that it has power to start with.


This isn't how 40k rules work. There is no set of rules to describe how events happen in the manner you have portrayed them. Bombing runs use bombs, which are pieces of wargear with weapons profiles.

For any model to use a weapon profile, that profile has to be present or added in some way to their unit entry under wargear.

The pulse generator does not 'fire' a bomb. It is not a weapon, as it has no profile. RAW, it is a wargear with a mechanic that adds a pulse bomb to the bomber's wargear.

To do so, you follow its rules. To follow its rules, you must have a pulse bomb and make a bombing run. The make a bombing run with a pulse bomb, you must have a pulse bomb. Nothing in the rules grants the bomber a pulse bomb before this.

The bomb is not in the vehicle's wargear because it is does not exist until the moment of the bombing run. Almost Check - it exists after a bombing run on a roll of 2+.

It is both produced and dropped at the moment of the bombing run. Not Check - it's produced IMMEDIATELY AFTER.

"Immediately after the Sun Shark makes a bombing run, <- you must make a bombing run
roll a D6. On a score of 2+, another pulse bomb is created <- you must roll and score 2+
and the Sun Shark can make another bombing run later
in the game. On a roll of a 1 , the pulse bomb generator's
power fails - no more bombs can be created, and no more
bombing runs can therefore be performed."

It is "added to the wargear" right before it is dropped, just as it is in subsequent runs (assuming the 2+ roll succeeded.) Not Check, see above

The generator doesn't have a profile because it is not the bomb. This does not mean that its mechanic of producing bombs should be ignored on the first bombing run. Here's where you're mistaken - the wording of the generator specifically states that, AFTER making a bombing run, it gets another bomb on a 2+. To make a bombing run, you must first have a bomb. If you do not have any bombs, you cannot make a bombing run, and therefore, cannot produce a bomb. A implies B implies C, A implies C. No A = No C.

The mechanic of this vehicle is obviously not reconciled in the BRB. Maybe rethink your wording of this statement, as it's not making much sense

Perhaps my interpretation is based purely on RAI. You had RAW right up until the point where you began making things up. If the rules do not explicitly state something, that something cannot happen.


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/08 17:32:18


Post by: Lt.Soundwave


"To make a bombing run, you must first have a bomb." Can someone point out what page of the codex says this? I cannot seem to find it.

I can find this "the wording of the generator specifically states that, AFTER making a bombing run, it gets another bomb on a 2+."

However this does not seem to present a contradiction.


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/08 17:41:59


Post by: Happyjew


 Lt.Soundwave wrote:
"To make a bombing run, you must first have a bomb." Can someone point out what page of the codex says this? I cannot seem to find it..


BRB, pg 81, SPECIAL WEAPON SYSTEMS - Bombs and Bombing Runs: "Some Flyers are armed with bombs..." Is the Bomber armed with a bomb? No. It is armed with a bomb generator which is used after making a bombing run.


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/08 18:39:33


Post by: Lt.Soundwave


The quote you provided does not say this :"To make a bombing run, you must first have a bomb."


So.. we have permission to make a bombing run with the craft and then after such an action is taken we are told that after said run we have permission to roll and see if the generator continues to function.

I still see no conflict.

Edit: The only specific requirement to make a bombing attack on page 81 that I can see is that the flyer must be zooming.


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/08 18:53:04


Post by: Monster Rain


 Happyjew wrote:
 Monster Rain wrote:
In other news, Space Marines aren't able to move because they don't have feet listed on their wargear entry.


What page says you need feet in order to move? I can't seem to find it.


This is so easily applicable to your own position I'm shocked that you posted this.


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/08 19:01:13


Post by: rigeld2


Lt.Soundwave wrote:The quote you provided does not say this :"To make a bombing run, you must first have a bomb."

No, the next sentence does. Perhaps you should read the rule he's describing instead of making assumptions.
Edit: The only specific requirement to make a bombing attack on page 81 that I can see is that the flyer must be zooming.

So did you miss the bolded words? I'll quote them for you.
Page 81 BRB wrote:Unlike other weapons, bombs are used during the Flyer's Movement phase, in a special kind of attack called a Bombing Run.

So you have to have a Bomb to make a Bombing Run.

Monster Rain wrote:This is so easily applicable to your own position I'm shocked that you posted this.

Page 81 BRB. Your turn.


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/08 20:06:45


Post by: chrisrawr


 Monster Rain wrote:
 Happyjew wrote:
 Monster Rain wrote:
In other news, Space Marines aren't able to move because they don't have feet listed on their wargear entry.


What page says you need feet in order to move? I can't seem to find it.


This is so easily applicable to your own position I'm shocked that you posted this.



No, it isn't. The rules give models the ability to run regardless of the state of their feet. The rules do NOT allow a model to make a bombing run without being equipped with a bomb. You explicitly have to have a bomb to make a bombing run.


http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20120803140502AAdG64I

TRANSITIVE RELATIONS ARE COOL

UNDERSTANDING THE RULES YOU ARE REFERENCING AND THE GAME YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT IS COOL

COMBINE THE TWO TO ARRIVE AT THE LOGICAL CONCLUSION: GW fethed UP ANOTHER CODEX'S RAW.


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/08 20:20:41


Post by: Lt.Soundwave


"Flyers have access to two special weapon systems: Missiles and bombs... Bombs can only be used while zooming."


I removed the portion about missiles.

"So you have to have a Bomb to make a Bombing Run."


Is RAI. If I have access to bombs via a Special weapon system then Marv's statement---
> "The key phrase is "another pulse bomb is created"

Stands.

"Unlike other weapons, bombs are used during the Flyer's Movement phase, in a special kind of attack called a Bombing Run."


These two lines say two very different things.

"To make a bombing run, you must first have a bomb."


The second line is a logical assumption, however it (being the line you referenced) is not written as such.

Also, Capslock is cruise control for cool.


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/08 20:33:06


Post by: Idolator


 tomjoad wrote:
This is such a nonissue! It is CLEARLY intended to start with one bomb. ANY tournament FAQ would rule that it starts with one bomb. After decades of GW making this kind of error and it pretty much always being ruled as it was clearly intended to be, what kind of pissant would still argue that, on an issue like this, strict RAW is the right way to roll?


Have you not read threads here before? Even though it listed as "You Make Da Call" very few people do that. They get bogged down in comma placement, word tense and hyphens. Hardly anyone seems to want to make a "call" they just regurgitate what is written with out respect for game play.

Yes, it is evident that it starts with a bomb and the rules are written on how you generate another bomb after the first is used. A learning disabled monkey could see that. The writters did a good job of writting the rules, you have to show an astounding level of willful ignorance to see it any other way.

If you want a frank and HONEST discussion for rules opinions and "call making" this is not the place.


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/08 20:41:36


Post by: rigeld2


 Lt.Soundwave wrote:
"Flyers have access to two special weapon systems: Missiles and bombs... Bombs can only be used while zooming."


I removed the portion about missiles.

You removed a lot more than that. Like the part I quoted that says you do actually need a bomb.

"Unlike other weapons, bombs are used during the Flyer's Movement phase, in a special kind of attack called a Bombing Run."


These two lines say two very different things.

"To make a bombing run, you must first have a bomb."


The second line is a logical assumption, however it (being the line you referenced) is not written as such.

Please explain how you make a bombing run without using a bomb.


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/08 20:48:54


Post by: Lt.Soundwave


Excuse me Rigeld2 but that is incorrect.

The entire Paragraph says:

Flyers have access to two special weapon systems: Missiles and bombs. Missiles can be used while either hovering or Zooming. Bombs can only be used while Zooming.


I have now added back the portion I removed. Please read the rules before you make statements of that kind.

Also, could you produce the location of this line "To make a bombing run, you must first have a bomb."

So far it appears to be an interpretation.

If you want a frank and HONEST discussion for rules opinions and "call making" this is not the place.


I am interested in just such a place. Toss me a PM if you have any suggestions.


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/08 20:59:48


Post by: rigeld2


 Lt.Soundwave wrote:
Excuse me Rigeld2 but that is incorrect.

The entire Paragraph says:

Flyers have access to two special weapon systems: Missiles and bombs. Missiles can be used while either hovering or Zooming. Bombs can only be used while Zooming.


I have now added back the portion I removed. Please read the rules before you make statements of that kind.

Sorry, I misread. Apologies.

Also, could you produce the location of this line "To make a bombing run, you must first have a bomb."

Unlike other weapons, bombs are used during the Flyer's Movement phase, in a special kind of attack called a Bombing Run.

So how do you make a Bombing Run? By using a bomb. Do you have to have something to use it? I'll let you answer that.


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/08 21:05:10


Post by: Crimson


I'm more interested in how Interceptor drones can fire while attached to the bomber...


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/08 21:12:28


Post by: insaniak


Idolator wrote:Have you not read threads here before? Even though it listed as "You Make Da Call" very few people do that. They get bogged down in comma placement, word tense and hyphens. Hardly anyone seems to want to make a "call" they just regurgitate what is written with out respect for game play.


The phrase 'man-eating lion' and 'man, eating lion' are very similar, and yet have completely different meanings. And the third and also similar phrase 'man eating lion' can, ridiculously enough, have the same meaning as either of those first two.

So yes, in a discussion of written text, grammar and punctuation are seen as being reasonably important. That really shouldn't surprise anyone.


Yes, it is evident that it starts with a bomb and the rules are written on how you generate another bomb after the first is used. A learning disabled monkey could see that. The writters did a good job of writting the rules, you have to show an astounding level of willful ignorance to see it any other way.

If you want a frank and HONEST discussion for rules opinions and "call making" this is not the place.

It seems that you have either completely missed the point of YMDC, or have engaged in a certain amount of selective reading. The vast majority of people who argue in favour of strict RAW are more than happy to ignore it when it causes issues in game, and that is often discussed here once the RAW is established.

YMDC is a tremendous resource for rules discussion so long as you can recognise that RAW and HYWPI are not always the same thing.



Lt.Soundwave wrote:Also, could you produce the location of this line "To make a bombing run, you must first have a bomb."

It's in the same place as the rule that says you have to have a ranged weapon in order to shoot.

A more relevant quote would be one that allows you to make a bombing run if you don't have a bomb,


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/08 21:18:11


Post by: Lt.Soundwave


I have an entry for the pulse bomb generator telling me that after I make a bombing run I have a chance for the generator to either make "another" bomb or to cease functioning.

It's in the same place as the rule that says you have to have a ranged weapon in order to shoot.


Page 12 did not contain the requested text.

Nominate a unit to shoot: During the shooting phase a unit containing models armed with ranged weapons can be nominated to make shooting attacks.





Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/08 21:23:28


Post by: rigeld2


 Lt.Soundwave wrote:
I have an entry for the pulse bomb generator telling me that after I make a bombing run I have a chance for the generator to either make "another" bomb or to cease functioning.

Yes.

Now first you have to make a bombing run, correct? (because it says "after).

Where is the bomb that you use to make a Bombing Run? The first one that is. You're assuming one's there because of the word "another" and I'm sure that's what's intended. Cite the rule that provides one.


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/08 21:26:05


Post by: Lt.Soundwave


I am not assuming, the word "another" is quite specific. Show me why you are allowed to ignore it

Where is the bomb that you use to make a Bombing Run


Under the ranged weapons profile chart.

In circles we go


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/08 21:30:46


Post by: rigeld2


 Lt.Soundwave wrote:
I am not assuming, the word "another" is quite specific. Show me why you are allowed to ignore it

In circles we go

I'm not ignoring it.
It's a misused word RAW as there's no bomb in the first place.


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/08 21:32:03


Post by: Kangodo


 WarlordRob117 wrote:
Right and rules as is, no weapon can fire... at all... there being no rules for ammo is the exact argument you are making... since they dont exist we cant play the game... and who said it isnt a weapon? did we ever stop to think that bomb is the generator profile? hence why it can only fire one at a time?
again, with this whole RAW and RAI bull... stop trying to grasp for straws, and just play the bomber...

The Wargear says it has a 'bomb generator' which has a chance to generate a Pulse Bomb áfter a bombing run.
The weapon profiles mentions a 'Pulse bomb', this is the actual weapon.
A Pulse Bomb Generator and a Pulse Bomb are therefore two different things!

So to keep it short:
After you use the 'one use only' weapon, you can use the Wargear to create another one of those weapons.
The problem is that it doesn't have the weapon to start with.

And can we stop complaining that people are discussing the rules in a RULES-FORUM?
Twist it any way you want, nobody will ever complain about this in a game but the fact is that GW screwed up with the wording/ruling on this bomber.


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/08 21:35:55


Post by: Crimson


Kangodo wrote:

The Wargear says it has a 'bomb generator' which has a chance to generate a Pulse Bomb áfter a bombing run.


No. It has a chance to generate another pulse bomb.


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/08 21:39:03


Post by: Kangodo


 Crimson wrote:
No. It has a chance to generate another pulse bomb.

So?
It heavily implies that the bomber was already carrying a Pulse Bomb.
But the flyer nor the Generator actually carry a Pulse Bomb.

It generates "another" Bomb after you used a Bomb.
But our issue is that the flyer doesn't have a Bomb to start with.
And every flyer so far has their bombs listed in the Wargear.

Conclusion: GW 'dropped a bomb' on this one.


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/08 21:39:55


Post by: insaniak


 Lt.Soundwave wrote:
I have an entry for the pulse bomb generator telling me that after I make a bombing run I have a chance for the generator to either make "another" bomb or to cease functioning.

Which lets you make another bomb after making a bombing run.


If a rock thrown up into the air returns to your hand each time, does that mean that you have a rock?

Clearly not. all it means is that if you have a rock, it will return when thrown.





Page 12 did not contain the requested text.

Nominate a unit to shoot: During the shooting phase a unit containing models armed with ranged weapons can be nominated to make shooting attacks.

That doesn't say that you have to have a ranged weapon to shoot. It just only gives you a procedure for shooting if you have one.

The bombing run is the same. It doesn't specifically state that you have to have a bomb.. it just only outlines a process that involves having one.

So if you don't have a bomb, those rules simply do not apply.


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/08 22:57:13


Post by: Rihgu


 Iranna wrote:
Dracoknight wrote:
....it says pulsebomb generator, and you presume its EMPTY on arrival?...

Seriously?...some people....

It says: "This mechanism produces and contains a ball of incadescent plasma which hangs beneath the bomber, ready to be dropped when a suitable target is reached"

Sooo... did you miss the italic? its a description, not pure fluff...


We're arguing RAW, not RAI. I'm sure everyone would let people start with a bomb no problem.

However, you're using the description of the weapon in questions (i.e fluff) to argue your case, which is completely irrelevant.

Under the rules section of the bomb generator, it does not say that it comes with a bomb as standard. Therefore, it cannot perform a bombing run in the first instance and therefore, cannot generate "another" bomb.

Also, your tone is really not appreciated. By assuming the worst in people, you're just going to get flakk for it. Do yourself a favour and be civil when people are debating a point.

Iranna.


This is a little late, but I've never seen a profile for hurricane bolters. Only ever the description for them, which says "Each hurricane bolter consists of three twin-linked bolters, fired as a single weapon."
Which, by your logic, means they can't be fired, as they don't have profiles and therefore aren't weapons. They are only described.

Edit: I also realize that if the description for the bomber was the rule, then it would ALWAYS have a bomb in it, and never need to roll to make a new one.


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/08 23:05:26


Post by: Spellbound


The fluff description of the weapon actually DOES matter for RAW.

Remember when the GK anti-plasma thing came out, and suddenly they said that pulse rifles and burst cannons were affected by it?

Why?

Because they said in their DESCRIPTION, the fluff of the weapon, that they fired plasma bursts. Even though they weren't "plasma _____" weapons, they were affected by it.

So here we have, again, the Tau Codex that describes the generator making another bomb for the shark. Is there RAW for it having a bomb? Nope. Is there RAI AND a precedent for fluff actually mattering, when it's obviously applicable? Yes, absolutely.

Though honestly, people have stopped actually allowing the argument to go anywhere. You have the people that want RAW but will allow people to play it RAI, for which it doesn't really matter, the people that want RAW and will be idiots about it until there is actually a RAW clarification for it (these may or may not ALSO be people that demand an errata, rather than an FAQ, because GW said their FAQs aren't actually set in stone official), and we have the RAI guys that don't care what the RAW says, they'll do what makes sense.


And after four pages, they really are very unlikely to budge. The words haven't changed in the book since 2 days ago, so I doubt some new gem will be discovered. Let's go our separate ways and get back to gaming, folks.


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/08 23:27:16


Post by: Ninjacommando


Late to the party but Can't ANY flyer make a Bombing run and elect to drop no bombs as it says under the Bombs & Bombing Runs Entry in the BRB?


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/09 01:55:31


Post by: MajinMalak


 Ninjacommando wrote:
Late to the party but Can't ANY flyer make a Bombing run and elect to drop no bombs as it says under the Bombs & Bombing Runs Entry in the BRB?


As far as I can tell, it says that it can drop UP to one bomb. Meaning zero is a possibility. So while it doesn't start with a bomb, it can make a bombing run so that it can then generate a bomb.

Of course, not how I'd actually play it, but that's what I see so far from the RAW.


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/09 08:27:44


Post by: Kangodo


Spellbound wrote:
The fluff description of the weapon actually DOES matter for RAW.
Remember when the GK anti-plasma thing came out, and suddenly they said that pulse rifles and burst cannons were affected by it?
Was that also in the rules or in a FAQ? Because if it's not in the rules, it can't be used.
Because they said in their DESCRIPTION, the fluff of the weapon, that they fired plasma bursts. Even though they weren't "plasma _____" weapons, they were affected by it.
I am willing to bet that this is bs and that they actually made a FAQ to put this stuff from the description in the rules.

Though honestly, people have stopped actually allowing the argument to go anywhere. You have the people that want RAW but will allow people to play it RAI, for which it doesn't really matter, the people that want RAW and will be idiots about it until there is actually a RAW clarification for it (these may or may not ALSO be people that demand an errata, rather than an FAQ, because GW said their FAQs aren't actually set in stone official), and we have the RAI guys that don't care what the RAW says, they'll do what makes sense.

And we have people that love to discuss the rules of Warhammer and like to find errors in the book.
And we have people who can't believe that the holy GW made a mistake and need to yell "YOU ARE WRONG" when people do nothing but pointing out a mistake in the book.

This thread would have been over a long time ago if people could just see that they forgot to add a bomb to the plane.

Rihgu wrote:
This is a little late, but I've never seen a profile for hurricane bolters. Only ever the description for them, which says "Each hurricane bolter consists of three twin-linked bolters, fired as a single weapon."
Which, by your logic, means they can't be fired, as they don't have profiles and therefore aren't weapons. They are only described.

Funny that you mention those!
Because there is no weapon called 'bolter' in my BRB, we do have a Boltgun, Stormbolter and Heavy Bolter.


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/09 14:47:24


Post by: G. Whitenbeard


Kangodo wrote:

Funny that you mention those!
Because there is no weapon called 'bolter' in my BRB, we do have a Boltgun, Stormbolter and Heavy Bolter.






Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/09 14:56:20


Post by: cryhavok


Lol why is this thread still going on even. When I started it I wasnt expecting much, maybe two or three comments. Fourpages of repeating the same drama is ridiculous.

Fortunatly ridiculous is entertaining, so please continue. The rules resemble mobius spaghetti, no begining, no end, and completely tangled, therefor all tau units are equiped with pulse bombs.


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/09 15:07:23


Post by: rigeld2


 MajinMalak wrote:
 Ninjacommando wrote:
Late to the party but Can't ANY flyer make a Bombing run and elect to drop no bombs as it says under the Bombs & Bombing Runs Entry in the BRB?


As far as I can tell, it says that it can drop UP to one bomb. Meaning zero is a possibility. So while it doesn't start with a bomb, it can make a bombing run so that it can then generate a bomb.

Of course, not how I'd actually play it, but that's what I see so far from the RAW.

You have to use a bomb to initiate a bombing run (page 81, I've quoted it before).
Can you use something you don't have?


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/09 15:25:32


Post by: MajinMalak


rigeld2 wrote:
 MajinMalak wrote:
 Ninjacommando wrote:
Late to the party but Can't ANY flyer make a Bombing run and elect to drop no bombs as it says under the Bombs & Bombing Runs Entry in the BRB?


As far as I can tell, it says that it can drop UP to one bomb. Meaning zero is a possibility. So while it doesn't start with a bomb, it can make a bombing run so that it can then generate a bomb.

Of course, not how I'd actually play it, but that's what I see so far from the RAW.

You have to use a bomb to initiate a bombing run (page 81, I've quoted it before).
Can you use something you don't have?


Actually, from re-reading your quote, I have to disagree. You posted:

Page 81 BRB wrote:
Unlike other weapons, bombs are used during the Flyer's Movement phase, in a special kind of attack called a Bombing Run.


However, that states that bombs are used during a bombing run, not that you MUST have bombs to make a bombing run. So bombs are used in a bombing run. Got it. Does that say you MUST have one to make a bombing run? No.

To make a Bombing Run, a Flyer must be Zooming. After the Flyer has finished moving, centre the bomb's blast marker on any one model the Flyer has passed over that turn and scatter it D6".


If you wanted to make a case, you should have use this sentence. It specifically says to make a bombing run you have to

1) Zoom
2) After moving, center the bomb's blast etc etc. Which means you actually have to use the bomb.

Those two sentences imply that you have to use a bomb to make a bombing run.


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/09 15:30:01


Post by: rigeld2


Other than using a bomb, find permission to make a bombing run.
Remember, you can't use a rule unless you have permission to do so. With a bomb you do - because that's how it's used.

Find permission when you don't have a bomb.


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/09 15:42:41


Post by: TheKbob


File this under stupid crap like "bouncing flying monstrous creatures."

RAI usually wins the day. Unless you're a Tyranid or Eldar player. Then you get FAQ'd into obscurity.

No need to argue about it. If someone ACTUALLY tried to argue this after setting down models, that person would not be playing anyone else in my area.

One of two things will happen: It will either be FAQd by GW or it is falls under "it's so common sense, you'd have to be a fool to believe it" and it never gets FAQd. In either case, BOMBS AWAY!


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/09 15:49:05


Post by: troa


Wow...As a new person, I've lost much respect for this section of the board. >.< Running the same argument in circles is just silly...


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/09 15:58:20


Post by: redkeyboard


 troa wrote:
Wow...As a new person, I've lost much respect for this section of the board. >.< Running the same argument in circles is just silly...


Welcome to YMDC.

I thought this would be over people would just chuckle about the oversight and it would be funny and would become an almost running joke. But this is just absurd.


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/09 16:05:34


Post by: rigeld2


I do think it's amusing.
It's more people who come in and say "THATS NOT WHAT IT SAYS YOURE WRONG IT HAS TO BE CORRECT" that I don't understand.

The rule is obviously flawed. It would be dumb to ever play that way. No one will.

That doesn't change the fact that it's flawed.


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/09 16:15:26


Post by: cryhavok


Can't make a bombing run without something that lets you center a blast marker, IE a bomb.


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/09 16:20:09


Post by: Elric Greywolf


 insaniak wrote:

The phrase 'man-eating lion' and 'man, eating lion' are very similar, and yet have completely different meanings. And the third and also similar phrase 'man eating lion' can, ridiculously enough, have the same meaning as either of those first two.


I would actually say that there are three possible meanings in those three phrases. The first, "man-eating lion," refers to a lion that eats humans. The second, "Man, eating lion," sounds like the answer to a query: "Whatcha doin'?" "Man, eating lion." ("Man" is used as a familiar greeting.) The third, "man eating lion," would be written on a sign in a wax museum, showing a caveman chowing down on a large cat.

So yes, hyphens and commas are very important. A famous example from theological history is Luke 23.43. Christ is on the cross, and he turns to one of the guys next to him and says, "I say to you today you will be with Me in paradise." Now, there's no commas in ancient Greek, but translations are translations and thus include some punctuation.

Some Bibles print it with a comma after "today," and some have the comma before "today." Putting the comma after "today" means that Jesus is speaking today, at this moment. Putting it after means that the man will be in paradise today, ie. right after he dies.


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/09 17:03:29


Post by: grendel083


Elric Greywolf wrote:
 insaniak wrote:

The phrase 'man-eating lion' and 'man, eating lion' are very similar, and yet have completely different meanings. And the third and also similar phrase 'man eating lion' can, ridiculously enough, have the same meaning as either of those first two.


I would actually say that there are three possible meanings in those three phrases. The first, "man-eating lion," refers to a lion that eats humans. The second, "Man, eating lion," sounds like the answer to a query: "Whatcha doin'?" "Man, eating lion." ("Man" is used as a familiar greeting.) The third, "man eating lion," would be written on a sign in a wax museum, showing a caveman chowing down on a large cat.

So yes, hyphens and commas are very important. A famous example from theological history is Luke 23.43. Christ is on the cross, and he turns to one of the guys next to him and says, "I say to you today you will be with Me in paradise." Now, there's no commas in ancient Greek, but translations are translations and thus include some punctuation.

Some Bibles print it with a comma after "today," and some have the comma before "today." Putting the comma after "today" means that Jesus is speaking today, at this moment. Putting it after means that the man will be in paradise today, ie. right after he dies.



Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/09 18:00:23


Post by: Taow


This thread is stupid. You guys know how it's meant to work, AGREE ON HOW IT SHOULD BE PLAYED, but continue to argue the wording. No matter how much you internet, the ink will not move on your page.


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/09 18:03:26


Post by: kronk


RAW: Complete feth up.

HIWPI: You get one to start, until an FAQ says otherwise.


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/09 18:27:31


Post by: rigeld2


Taow wrote:
This thread is stupid. You guys know how it's meant to work, AGREE ON HOW IT SHOULD BE PLAYED, but continue to argue the wording. No matter how much you internet, the ink will not move on your page.

There's people that come in and say that it works as it's written, and try to mock people who think it doesn't.
That's what has kept this going for so long. It's not the people who understand it's broken... it's the ones who are convinced it's not.


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/09 18:46:39


Post by: kronk


Taow wrote:
This thread is stupid. You guys know how it's meant to work, AGREE ON HOW IT SHOULD BE PLAYED, but continue to argue the wording. No matter how much you internet, the ink will not move on your page.


Welcome to the forums, Taow! I see you're new to Dakka. Post pictures of your armies! Paint, paint, paint!

Now then, this area is called "You make Da Call". Often there are discussions and debates here that include "How is the rule written" "How is it meant to be played" and "How my group plays it". Please don't confuse these three.

Often times, these discussion are really academic in nature, as both parties involved would freely admit that their "How I would play it" differs from their argument. However, GW rules being what they are, people aren't always going to agree with how to handle it. I think you should take a look at the first stickied post in this Subforum.

You'll see that Rule #4 is what I'm talking about.


4. Rules as Written are not How You Would Play It. Please clearly state which one you are talking about during a rules debate, and do not argue a RAW point against a HYWPI point (or vice-versa).
- Many arguments can be avoided if this is made clear. Don't assume you know the point your opponent is arguing about.


Also, please note that your post violates Rule 1a and Rule 5.


1a. Don't say that someone is wrong, instead you explain why you think their opinion is wrong. Criticize the opinion, not the person.

5. Stick to discussing the rules, not the poster. Phrases like "Rules Lawyer", "Cheater" and "TFG" have no place in rules discussions. Don't depart from rules discussions by attaching value judgments to different interpretations.




Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/10 03:47:08


Post by: Neronoxx


Yes, to all those who are new and posting, keep in mind this board is for the intellectual debate of the rules as they are written (RAW in other terms) and that how any individual would interpret or play with said rules is not the point of this board, and should not be posted unless asked for.
And yes, it is silly that it has gone on this long. Especially when it is clear that the problem is simply a missing wargear listing, nothing more. But you always have the so called "White Knights" who believe that they must punish neckbeards and TFG's wherever they might find them. These people instantly assume the worst of their counterparts in a desperate attempt to undermine the morality of their argument.
But they always forget one crucial fact; There is no morality in "You Make Da Call"....
only RAW.
XD
(Of course, i am not in any way suggesting that any poster in this thread is violating any of the tenets of dakka, or is in any fashion belittling or insulting any other poster in this thread. So far it has remained fairly civil.)


Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/10 04:08:04


Post by: insaniak


Neronoxx wrote:
Yes, to all those who are new and posting, keep in mind this board is for the intellectual debate of the rules as they are written (RAW in other terms) and that how any individual would interpret or play with said rules is not the point of this board, and should not be posted unless asked for.

This is not actually accurate.


There is absolutely no problem with discussing how you choose to play it over RAW. All that we ask is that posters make it clear when the rules interpretation that they are presenting is their own house rule rather than how the rules actually say to do it.

Presenting your opinion on what makes a broken rule function as you believe it is intended to function is perfectly acceptable.



Tau bomber doesn't function @ 2013/04/10 05:56:00


Post by: Neronoxx


 insaniak wrote:
Neronoxx wrote:
Yes, to all those who are new and posting, keep in mind this board is for the intellectual debate of the rules as they are written (RAW in other terms) and that how any individual would interpret or play with said rules is not the point of this board, and should not be posted unless asked for.

This is not actually accurate.


There is absolutely no problem with discussing how you choose to play it over RAW. All that we ask is that posters make it clear when the rules interpretation that they are presenting is their own house rule rather than how the rules actually say to do it.

Presenting your opinion on what makes a broken rule function as you believe it is intended to function is perfectly acceptable.



Ah, you are correct sir.
I should say that arguing over how individuals would play it should be refrained from, as it usually is meaningless and contributes little to the discussion.