All of the WHFB and 40k collectors ranges are now confirmed as being killed off like specialist games - including the metal guard models and the dogs of war stuff
Kroothawk wrote: Seems like Games Workshop is preparing for the final countdown.
I'd say they're still a long way from that, but it's not very surprising considering the direction they've been moving for a decade or more. It's just becoming more obvious now.
Lord Harrab wrote: A shame, but hopefuly that means plastic steel legion kits
I fear for the worst. I've always wanted a Steel Legion force eventually, and now they might be gone completely? Not sure if I'm willing to take a ~$350-700 blind plunge to get all the units I might want, or perhaps buy one of everything so that I could cast an entire army if the range is indeed canceled and not replaced. I would have no moral qualms with recasting an army that GW refuses to sell me any more.
JohnnyHell wrote: Gods forbid a company that doesn't keep everything it ever produced in production forever?
(Cue inevitable gnashing, wailing and questions on where I source so much Kool-Aid from.)
People are allowed to be disappointed, even if the decision is understandable.
Of course they are. I wish Necromunda was still in production, and Epic was my first GeeDub game and 2nd fave after Necromunda. But it's Dakka, so there'll be a flood of "ZOMG NOOOOO! That unit I had no intention of ever buying is gone! Kirby must go! It's the end of days" type yawnage.
It sucks to see them go. There's some lovely models in those ranges. Particularly the chaos lord in power armour. Guess I won't be making a combined imperial guard army out of vahallan's, mordian's and tallarn.
Don't really understand the point of the collectors section. Most of these miniatures should always have been included in the regular army section on the website.
Riquende wrote: People are allowed to be disappointed, even if the decision is understandable.
Correct, the well sculpted Collector models don't fit the current Happy Meal range of Dinobots and Drag Elves.
Also: "Collector models were a major reason to buy from the GW webstore. We will discontinue that range. This is good news, as it speeds up loading time on the GW webstore and keeps our cashiers from overflowing!"
Well, it's pretty obvious why GW is doing this-- the big metal transition. The big sellers from the collector's range got turned into Finecast, and the ones that weren't worth converting are now getting cut.
Still a shame though. I think the old Imperial Guard metals are a lot better and more characterful than the current Cadians or Catachans. They also scale better with Space Marines-- especially important when fielding allied detachments. Hopefully the next Imperial Guard release will come with new basic troops boxes. The current ones are really showing their age.
Kroothawk wrote: Also: "Collector models were a major reason to buy from the GW webstore. We will discontinue that range. This is good news, as it speeds up loading time on the GW webstore and keeps our cashiers from overflowing!"
Don't worry, everything but the Dark Vengeance™ set will be moving to Citadel™ FineDirect™. This is excellent news for our valued customers, you will now be able to experience a streamlined purchase experience at your local Games Workshop™ Hobby™ Center™, free of all the distractions that used to clutter the shelves when you wanted to buy more Citadel™ Space Marines™. And when you want to buy other Citadel™ Space Marines™ you can order them through Citadel™ FineDirect™ from the comfort of your own home and have them delivered right to your door!
Im probably grasping at straws but maybe they are making room for plastic steel legion and the like for the rumoured allied stuff such as a steel legion detachment.
Nah, I think Kingsley's got it about right. Another round of cost cutting, this time putting paid to all metal production - selling off of machines, ending of supply contracts, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if some metal casting staff aren't being let go as part of this...
zedmeister wrote: Nah, I think Kingsley's got it about right. Another round of cost cutting, this time putting paid to all metal production - selling off of machines, ending of supply contracts, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if some metal casting staff aren't being let go as part of this...
GW sold off their metal casting equipment a few months after Finecrap launched BTW.
That's a shame, I wanted to get one platoon of each regiment eventually since I don't have the cash at the moment. Ah well, too bad, guess the oppurtunity has passed, guess I can round of my guard army and be done with it then, saves a lot of money for other games
Can't say I'm too surprised though, why keep all metal casting facilities for a few old models, don't like it, but I can completely understand it.
There are, broadly speaking, two reasons for a company to elminate a product line:
1) it's not profitable enough
2) it does not fit within overall strategy
The first seems dubious. You can make a profit, albeit a small one, selling garage quality sculpts over the internet. The idea that GW couldn't profitably produce and sell metal specialist and collectors models, especially since they only sold directly at retail, its dubious.
This leaves strategy. GW is clearly moving out of metal, and keeping ranges without the profit potential to shift to finecast around would interfere with the overall goal.
Now... it's not unusual for companies in GWs situation, having a product line that's got some juice but doesn't fit, to spin it off or create a subsidiary, or even license out the stuff. I know the last is DOA for GW management, but I'm a little surprised they haven't created a new, FW style subsidiary that exists simply to cater to the old metal range.
The reason people expect metal models to stay in production is that they can be cast to order. If you keep the molds, the casting equipment, and some semi-skilled labor around, you can make anything as needed. Hell, even if you cast up too many of something in metal, you can recycle it quickly and efficiently. Metal models aren't iPods or automobiles, that require huge levels of production. As long as you have storage and a few pieces of casting equipment, you can make money spinning a couple dozen models a year out of a mold.
Heck, this is a golden opportunity for a few companies. Dreamforge's black widows (female guard-type models) will be released this year when Wave 3 of their kickstarter campaign ships, and Raging Heroes is just about to do a female guard-type model kickstarter.
Are ALL sisters of battle models going away, or just some?
Gertjan wrote: That's a shame, I wanted to get one platoon of each regiment eventually since I don't have the cash at the moment. Ah well, too bad, guess the oppurtunity has passed, guess I can round of my guard army and be done with it then, saves a lot of money for other games
Can't say I'm too surprised though, why keep all metal casting facilities for a few old models, don't like it, but I can completely understand it.
Yes, the writing was in the wall. Also there's the aspect that whilst Collectors and Specialist Games ranges have many great and classic figures, they also have some really old and crappy looking miniatures. Even if merits of modern GW aesthetics can be sometimes questioned, some of the old minis were really showing their age.
However, it can't be denied that this leaves big hole in GW product range. It might be that GW operates under "finite market - zero sum game" assumption, so it would be more profitable if they just stick with their "core" games and discontinue "disruptions", but I believe this to be faulty. Despite lack of support and cynicism by some of the commentators, some of the Specialist Games were still pretty popular and I'd think that there were some pretty good sellers in the range. I doubt GW will totally give up these games and figures. Some of the Collectors range will probably transit to Finecast and then sold as part of the regular ranges. Might be that at least some SG games see also new extension in Finecast, though not all of them - for starters, sheer number of miniatures involved makes it unlikely or impossible. They may also give some of them Space Hulk treatment.
Problem is, even if they WERE planning to retain some SG's in new form, they wouldn't be telling us, would they?
RiTides wrote: Heck, this is a golden opportunity for a few companies. Dreamforge's black widows (female guard-type models) will be released this year when Wave 3 of their kickstarter campaign ships, and Raging Heroes is just about to do a female guard-type model kickstarter.
Are ALL sisters of battle models going away, or just some?
Well the Sisters aren't part of the Collector's range, they're merely direct-only normal range.
Flashman wrote: This does make sense business wise. No company should sit on a large amount of stock that isn't selling.
1. I doubt they're sitting on a "large amount" of stock.
2. Some companies might try to sell/drum up interest for/re-issue or otherwise promote these ranges, perhaps through the pages of a monthly magazine and via a website, in order to general interest and sales.
Zwan1One wrote: Don't really understand the point of the collectors section. Most of these miniatures should always have been included in the regular army section on the website.
Especially since most of it is still valid in current codices, or are the only models to fill certain slots (Lord Solar macharius, Norg Deddog, etc).
I guess this was inevitable... I'm suprised they lasted this long to be honest. I really hope the old regiments don't fade into dust and do actually get an update- one day! Each plastic regiment would only actually be 3 boxes- infantry, command, and heavy weapons- and if they played the cards right they might be able to double up (Mordian/Praetorian just a head swap, Valhallan/Steel Legion could be pulled off too without compromising too much. Tallarn are more unique, but they could always do something new...)
I'll be snatching up a few of those last Tallarns, I think- just to round things off in my army. Ebay prices are bound to go up.
Incidently I've been noticing the steady decay of the Forge world Tallarn range as well. The Tallarn Sentinel is no longer for sale, as is the heavy bolter team and weapons pack. Must be While Stocks Last, like a lot of their stuff...
Polonius wrote: There are, broadly speaking, two reasons for a company to elminate a product line:
Metal models aren't iPods or automobiles, that require huge levels of production. As long as you have storage and a few pieces of casting equipment, you can make money spinning a couple dozen models a year out of a mold.
They'd definitely be losing money if they were selling just a "couple dozen" a year. They'd be paying employees year round to work the machines, they'd have to pay upkeep cost of running old machines, there'd be cost associated with molds, cost associated with packaging, they'd be paying for the space the machines take up. Even if they could make a small accounting profit, they'd be making a negative economic profit.
Polonius wrote: There are, broadly speaking, two reasons for a company to elminate a product line:
Metal models aren't iPods or automobiles, that require huge levels of production. As long as you have storage and a few pieces of casting equipment, you can make money spinning a couple dozen models a year out of a mold.
They'd definitely be losing money if they were selling just a "couple dozen" a year. They'd be paying employees year round to work the machines, they'd have to pay upkeep cost of running old machines, there'd be cost associated with molds, cost associated with packaging, they'd be paying for the space the machines take up. Even if they could make a small accounting profit, they'd be making a negative economic profit.
I think Polonius meant a couple dozen of each mold, not a couple dozen total. If you're selling enough to keep one machine spinning all year and someone to run it, you can still get money out of each mold, and you can keep a pretty low stock, if not just spinning new models for each order. Basically it's a garage operation. But it doesn't fit with GW's "core product" or whatever.
Just had a look through the 40k collectors range to make sure there was nothing that still wanted. Seems like all the good stuff has switched over to finecast and there is really nothing good left in metal anyway. Sure some of the IG regiments are nice for nostalgia's sake but Victoria Miniatures already produces stuff with a similar theme that far surpasses them in every way. Everything else is just ancient sculpts which needed to be dumped years ago except maybe the csm guys which are still very nice.
I will miss the Warhammer metals though, most of them are incredible sculpts. Granted I would never buy them but they were nice to look at!
I notice Vostoroyans despite being metal are not in the collectors section, does it mean they will be going also? They are perhaps the only thing I would mourn, lucky I already bought them last Christmas.
I still think GW could make a profitable side branch (something like FW) that just rotated through old molds and produced models for a limited time. The collectors range had stagnant sales because they were released, people who wanted them bought them, then the sales stagnated. There's a number of ranges that are very popular online that obviously people are willing to pay actual GW prices for (rare specialist games crews are one that stands out). Make molds available for 6 months then put them back into storage once sales drop off.
The special IG regiments don't really fit this trend, but probably just weren't selling enough (pretty solid second hand market for any that people did want).
Also, because there's still a considerable amount of metal that's not specialist or collectors, I don't believe that GW sold all their metal casting equipment. Some, or even most seems likely, but they have to maintain some of their capacity.
Part of me hopes that this is just the prelude to some unexpected release like, say, a revival of specialist games or the launch of bitz sprues to customize Imperial Guard infantry kits...
But the more rational part of me just thinks that the Tau supply fiasco made GW notice they're running out of warehouse space, so they're shaking off dead weight.
Anyways, it's sad to see those bits of GW history go.
decker_cky wrote: I still think GW could make a profitable side branch (something like FW) that just rotated through old molds and produced models for a limited time. The collectors range had stagnant sales because they were released, people who wanted them bought them, then the sales stagnated. There's a number of ranges that are very popular online that obviously people are willing to pay actual GW prices for (rare specialist games crews are one that stands out). Make molds available for 6 months then put them back into storage once sales drop off.
The problem I see is that what purpose does a 6 month special serve when those same models were on the site for YEARS with most likely extremely little sales. The amount of players that will spend 8$ on an ancient metal model that is outclassed by modern models just for nostalgia sake is fairly slim I would imagine. In relation to IG units specifically, you can't even build a current army with them due to their models being based on only using 3 different weapon options, so that reduces their demand by an even larger degree.
It's sad to see history go into the dustbin.. but that's what pictures are for.
It appears that Games Workshop is preparing itself to be purchased. All of their recent moves have been to divest themselves of a huge amount of non-core property including subsidiaries (e.g., Black Industries), operations (e.g., manufacturing in Memphis), and slower selling products (e.g., Specialist Games and Collector Range models). Combined with the recent extreme cost cutting and draconian price increases it appears that they are trying to boost the appeal of the company to buyer(s) through extreme streamlining and short-term profit boosting.
It's the first time I ordered from GW since they canceled bitz back in what? 2008?
Their ordering system is... not very good. They promise a chance to review your order at step 3 but whenI tried it the order was finalized. No chance to add more, no chance to check my address. Which really sucked since I made a typo.
So I head to wait 2 hours for them to open so I could call them and make the change by phone.
Oh and 3 hours later, no confirmation email.
Compare with Amazon where my confirmation email arrives half a second after I click.
Kroothawk wrote: Seems like Games Workshop is preparing for the final countdown.
There's a perceptible shift in the air. Very interesting.
Agreed.
What people should realize is that it may not be the end of the various IPs. No doubt someone will come along and buy up the 40k associated IPs. WHFB...well if GW proper came to an end Id imagine so would WHFB...its not unique or popular enough to be worth much. Maybe if the price was right, or as a full GW IP purchase deal.
The hope is that it all goes to someone who can write a decent rule set, and correct many of the GW errors of late.
Out of interest, what is happening to the likes of the Vostroyan range? I asked GW just before christmas if these were going finecast and they said that they had no plans to change them.
Does this mean they will go too? If so I need another 6 squads lol
Ktulhut wrote: It's a huge shame, and really regrettable. But I'm amazed they lasted this long, to be perfectly honest.
Agreed. They like to rip most of their history down
Not when it's very possible they actually are NOT making money off of it. If they have been sitting in warehouses not selling, then they are simply taking space which ultimately costs money. The materials used to make them, as well as the time put in by the casters, has not resulted in any benefits, merely spent money. Having items sit around DOES cost money, realize that.
As for everyone claiming it's the end of GW... Please do some light research on how to run a business and product line, and also perhaps on logical falicies.
I don't think this for tells GWs demise any, more likely they are dropping the relevant staff and metal casting kit and making space.
Having personally seen a few companies go down, I will say this has the same stink. Look at the timeline. Constant price increases, rules directly written solely to sell product (in particular large expensive product), closing/downsizing of stores, ceasing major events, discontinuing product lines. These are all actions of a company that is trying to pull out "just one more fiscal quarter in the black". They know the IP is worth a hefty sum, so worrying about sales figures for a sell out is irrelevant. The game right now seems to be pulling off as many positive quarters as possible, making shareholders as much money as possible, before the bubble finally bursts and they start screaming "sell Mortimer sell!!".
Sorry folks, but the blood is in the water, and soon you will see the sharks start to circle. The end of the current version of GW is approaching. The big question is where it goes. Restructure? Bulk sell out? Sell in parts?
Mad4Minis wrote: [before the bubble finally bursts and they start screaming "sell Mortimer sell!!".
I don't think it will end in the explosive manner you're suggesting, I think they are cutting and cutting and reshaping the company yet further from what we'd all like it to be.
JohnnyHell wrote: Gods forbid a company that doesn't keep everything it ever produced in production forever?
(Cue inevitable gnashing, wailing and questions on where I source so much Kool-Aid from.)
I agree. Let's face it, not many people could have been buying all of those metal IG boxes. They are cool models, but they are from a bygone era and GW's design concepts/priorities have moved on.
Mad4Minis wrote: What people should realize is that it may not be the end of the various IPs.
Yeah, we're all looking forward to 40Klix. Possibly with ponies.
Say what you will about GW, but they at least managed to not completely mess up the one good thing they have - the setting.
Im honestly hoping it goes to someone who wont mess it up either. I like the fluff of 40k, and I think with some less cartoon-ish sculpting it would be an awesome range of miniatures.
You do realize they are actually opening more stores in the US than they are closing right? And have continued to do so throughout this year so far. Heck, one just opened up here last weekend.
Can't speak to the rest of it but I generally don't see companies opening stores when they're in their death spiral.
Sounds like we have plenty of basement MBAs here doomcasting any move GW makes.
Can't GW cut a line of old poorly selling miniatures because they simply aren't that profitable? What many of you fail to understand is that just because something may technically make a "profit" it might not be worth the time or effort. Star product lines such as 40k can actually be hurt by attention being redirected away from them to keep a collectors range slowly grinding along.
Consider this scenario: Everyday there magically appears $10 in a box which is a 1 hour drive from your house. So you go and drive to the box and grab the $10, but it cost you $5 in gas. Congratulations you made a profit of $5..... but was it really worth an hour of your time and the potential wear and tear on your vehicle?
^^ The collectors line and specialist games follow the same principle, time and effort can be put to use developing and selling more profitable products. It is much easier to follow a simplified organizational strategy when you don't have all these random bits trailing off in all directions.
gossipmeng wrote: Sounds like we have plenty of basement MBAs here doomcasting any move GW makes.
Can't GW cut a line of old poorly selling miniatures because they simply aren't that profitable? What many of you fail to understand is that just because something may technically make a "profit" it might not be worth the time or effort. Star product lines such as 40k can actually be hurt by attention being redirected away from them to keep a collectors range slowly grinding along.
Consider this scenario: Everyday there magically appears $10 in a box which is a 1 hour drive from your house. So you go and drive to the box and grab the $10, but it cost you $5 in gas. Congratulations you made a profit of $5..... but was it really worth an hour of your time and the potential wear and tear on your vehicle?
^^ The collectors line and specialist games follow the same principle, time and effort can be put to use developing and selling more profitable products. It is much easier to follow a simplified organizational strategy when you don't have all these random bits trailing off in all directions.
Yeah it's 2012 doomsday all over again. A zombie apocalypse has a higher chance of happening than GW closing it's doors because it scraps some stuff that produces nearly no income to refocus resources elsewhere
GW isn't going anywhere, they may restructure and refocus the business but cutting off stuff that doesn't make sense business wise is a smart move.
Have we had any reliable reports of all these lines being killed off? Or just some guy?
edit: Both this and the specialist games threads are based off of nothing that I have seen other than some blog saying 'We have confirmed that...' Or 'I heard that...'
pretre wrote: Have we had any reliable reports of all these lines being killed off? Or just some guy?
edit: Both this and the specialist games threads are based off of nothing that I have seen other than some blog saying 'We have confirmed that...' Or 'I heard that...'
Well I can confirm that things that have been selling out have been removed from the main website. I'm hoping it's more along the lines certain models will be recast but most are going in the can but it's doubtful.
And the forgeworld stuff is also out of stock. Guess we'll see.
pities2004 wrote: Collectors range and Specialist games didn't make much money, why not cut them?
But when you cut them, they make zero money. Seems to me "not much money" is better than "zero money", no?
Actually, they probably lose money. It costs money to pay salaries of the casters, upkeep of equipment, storage space, taxes on inventory, and such. Even if they make a small profit over all of these costs is it still worth it? GW is a business and must operate like one. Getting rid of this stuff is probably a smart financial move.
BrassScorpion wrote: It appears that Games Workshop is preparing itself to be purchased. All of their recent moves have been to divest themselves of a huge amount of non-core property including subsidiaries (e.g., Black Industries), operations (e.g., manufacturing in Memphis), and slower selling products (e.g., Specialist Games and Collector Range models). Combined with the recent extreme cost cutting and draconian price increases it appears that they are trying to boost the appeal of the company to buyer(s) through extreme streamlining and short-term profit boosting.
I don’t know a lot about business acquisitions but doesn’t it take like the top 10 shareholders to equal up to 51% of the company? Do you think that they’d all get together in hopes of getting bought out? I personally don’t think so.
If true, the recent cuts make sense. Even though I'm big into specialist games, business is business.
In my eyes, this all points to a shift to Lean Manufacturing. I don't see GW closing their doors or putting up a 'For Sale' sign. Piggybacking off of this, I'd be surprised if White Dwarf ISN'T fully electronic in the next year or so.
jmsincla wrote: If true, the recent cuts make sense. Even though I'm big into specialist games, business is business.
In my eyes, this all points to a shift to Lean Manufacturing. I don't see GW closing their doors or putting up a 'For Sale' sign. Piggybacking off of this, I'd be surprised if White Dwarf ISN'T fully electronic in the next year or so.
With the way the world spins now, fully electronic is smart, though it does suck if they continue to only support ipads ( I have an ipad and love reading my white dwarfs and books on them)
But the niche market is Android
They could also offer it online in a paid format to PDFs
Kirasu wrote: The problem I see is that what purpose does a 6 month special serve when those same models were on the site for YEARS with most likely extremely little sales. The amount of players that will spend 8$ on an ancient metal model that is outclassed by modern models just for nostalgia sake is fairly slim I would imagine. In relation to IG units specifically, you can't even build a current army with them due to their models being based on only using 3 different weapon options, so that reduces their demand by an even larger degree.
It's sad to see history go into the dustbin.. but that's what pictures are for.
If the collectors models never sold, then cutting the line makes sense. If the collectors models sold then tailed off, then rotating collectors offerings makes sense. That lets them target a niche with minimal cost (no new molds to produce).
And there's lots of models in the collectors/specialist ranges which have never been outdone.
jmsincla wrote: If true, the recent cuts make sense. Even though I'm big into specialist games, business is business.
In my eyes, this all points to a shift to Lean Manufacturing. I don't see GW closing their doors or putting up a 'For Sale' sign. Piggybacking off of this, I'd be surprised if White Dwarf ISN'T fully electronic in the next year or so.
With the way the world spins now, fully electronic is smart, though it does suck if they continue to only support ipads ( I have an ipad and love reading my white dwarfs and books on them)
But the niche market is Android
They could also offer it online in a paid format to PDFs
Agreed on all points, I will say I love downloading WD on Saturday morning and having a good read.
Mad4Minis wrote: [before the bubble finally bursts and they start screaming "sell Mortimer sell!!".
I don't think it will end in the explosive manner you're suggesting, I think they are cutting and cutting and reshaping the company yet further from what we'd all like it to be.
But have many internets for your reference!
Best Movie!
I am hoping with the whole licencing of video games, they may spin down all official specialist games and then 'license' their specialist games to 3rd parties. I also hope this means they may consider licencing other miniature manufacturers to make 'official' add-in models for 40k/Fantasy.
How much effort would it be to allow some of these 3rd party model makers to make a model with an official '40k universe' on it and GW gets either a flat fee for the license or a royalty per model? And then those manufacturers then become promoters of the entire system.
Finecast sucks? Metal Sucks? Ok, make your awesome plastic kits, and then partner with "Bombshelter Studios" to make high-quality, advanced individual or multipart kits for things which can't warrant a full-blown plastic kit. And then partner with "Krumbum Universe" to make weapon packs for your plastic models.
Then people who seem to have a really good representation of your IP can make whole 3rd party support lines for your dead armies like sisters.
I feel like this would be the result of a corporate restructure because people who know the industry with business sense would be able to handle this. I think you will see this way before bankruptcy or takeover by WotC.
God forbid a company no longer sell something which isnt profitable. This is like a VG company dropping making video games for ps1 and people getting upset.
This is just way to little of a thing to care about.
Also, Now they are really collectable.
pities2004 wrote: Collectors range and Specialist games didn't make much money, why not cut them?
But when you cut them, they make zero money. Seems to me "not much money" is better than "zero money", no?
Actually, they probably lose money. It costs money to pay salaries of the casters, upkeep of equipment, storage space, taxes on inventory, and such. Even if they make a small profit over all of these costs is it still worth it? GW is a business and must operate like one. Getting rid of this stuff is probably a smart financial move.
Not necessarily. It's smart only if you assume that your games compete with each other, and people who play BFG and Mordheim will buy more 40k and Fantasy if those game ranges are discontinued. However, I believe this to be untrue - if so, then cutting out "less succesful" product lines will only lead to customer base getting smaller.
Now, as far as individual miniatures are concerned, of course they come and go and companies can't be expected to keep them in production indefinitely. "Collector range" has probably become a drag - sure there are probably still few nostalgics who buy them, but as a whole I agree they probably aren't worth retaining when you're getting rid of metal altogether. Those miniatures which still sell can be transferred to Finecast, and become part of the regular range: hopefully Mordians, Tallarns etc also see plastic kits in the future.
hotsauceman1 wrote: God forbid a company no longer sell something which isnt profitable. This is like a VG company dropping making video games for ps1 and people getting upset.
This is just way to little of a thing to care about.
Also, Now they are really collectable.
Yeah, things shipping in in 24 hours aren't really collector items now, are they?
If it is not profitable in-house... then license it and let someone else take on the 'risks'. If there is no market, then the license holder can fail and not you.
Basically what New Line is doing to GW with the Hobbit
Part of me is slightly relieved that this abomination is getting the chop. To be fair to them, I understand that if a product's not in fitting with their current business plan (which in this case seems to be ****ing around it's customers), then there's no reason to continue in such a manner. However, an actual statement from the company would have been better, instead of just sweeping the range under the rug and continue like nothing's happened, instead leaving us to rely on rumour-mills which will be shut down eventually because getting people excited about future releases has been shown to be detrimental to sales(!)
Thank god that Pumbagore made the transition to Finecast so I can still get him in the near future... (and no I am actually considering getting him for a modeling project)
nkelsch wrote: If it is not profitable in-house... then license it and let someone else take on the 'risks'. If there is no market, then the license holder can fail and not you.
)
I doubt they'd license out actual miniatures wargames. It's different to give a license to make an RPG or boardgame.
gossipmeng wrote: Sounds like we have plenty of basement MBAs here doomcasting any move GW makes.
Can't GW cut a line of old poorly selling miniatures because they simply aren't that profitable? What many of you fail to understand is that just because something may technically make a "profit" it might not be worth the time or effort. Star product lines such as 40k can actually be hurt by attention being redirected away from them to keep a collectors range slowly grinding along.
Consider this scenario: Everyday there magically appears $10 in a box which is a 1 hour drive from your house. So you go and drive to the box and grab the $10, but it cost you $5 in gas. Congratulations you made a profit of $5..... but was it really worth an hour of your time and the potential wear and tear on your vehicle?
^^ The collectors line and specialist games follow the same principle, time and effort can be put to use developing and selling more profitable products. It is much easier to follow a simplified organizational strategy when you don't have all these random bits trailing off in all directions.
Thank you for understanding that time=money. Most of the people posting here don't factor that in. Like I said early making and accounting profit doesn't mean you're making an economic profit. They'd definitely be better of shifting their resources to other projects.
The funny thing is "the basement mba's" don't understand business. God forbid a company restructures and trims the fat to keep up with a changing market.
ianj253 wrote: Thank you for understanding that time=money. Most of the people posting here don't factor that in. Like I said early making and accounting profit doesn't mean you're making an economic profit. They'd definitely be better of shifting their resources to other projects.
The funny thing is "the basement mba's" don't understand business. God forbid a company restructures and trims the fat to keep up with a changing market.
I understand that, I really do. It's possible that the whole operation is simple too "low cost/low gain" to be worth the hassle. That said, they're charging a premium retail price for old models. Spin casting isn't monkey work, but it's no more than semi-skilled. I simply think that it's a "very low cost/sort of low gain" thing.
Where things are different is if they are looking at a major capital expense to buy new casting equiptment, but even then...there's money to be had. I know this because I know what other companies make money at selling, at lower prices.
So while I would not be surprised that metal casting has the lowest profit margin and incidental revenues, I'm slightly surprised that they're turning their back on what revenues it is.
Hell, recreate Marauder miniatures (or, more likely, some clever name like "Longbeard's Forge") as a wholly owned subsidiary. give them some space, some equiptment, and the back catalog of master models. Let them run like FW does, and see how much cash they can bring in.
hotsauceman1 wrote: God forbid a company no longer sell something which isnt profitable. This is like a VG company dropping making video games for ps1 and people getting upset.
This is just way to little of a thing to care about.
Also, Now they are really collectable.
That truly is a bad example. The last PS1 game was released in 2004. The last Sega Mega Drive game was released in 2010 FFS! Also ignoring the fact a good chunk of said games are also available to download onto your current PS3 to play at your leisure.
Here is a list of the things I got back from GW that were obsolete or on back order. This is in response to an order I placed which means that I won't have the Epic Reaver I wanted:
PRODUCT DESCRIPTION
Back Order: 99800101063 Chapter Master Pedro Kantor
99060113007 Aun Shi Tau Ethereal
99060113030 Tau Ethereal with Staff
99120202019 Empire Pistoliers / Outriders
99120207014 Vampire Counts Dire Wolves
99800101006 Space Marine Terminator Chaplain
99800101037 Space Wolves Rune Priest
99810113001 Tau Sniper Drone Team
99819915013 Keeper of Secrets
99120113017 Tau Gun Drone Squad
99800113016 Darkstrider
99800113017 Longstrike
99810113004 Commander Shadowsun
99810113013 Aun'Va, Master of the Undying Spirit
99060307006 Epic: Imperial Marauder Bombers
99800209002 Grimgor Ironhide
99060105142 Imperial Guard Catachan Snipers
99060801004 Battlefleet Gothic: Space Marine Hunter
99060807012 Battlefleet Gothic: Falchion Class Escor
99110807025 Battlefleet Gothic: Adeptus Mechanicus C
99221499007 The Lord of the Rings Terrain Pack
99800101012 Astorath the Grim
99819915015 Flesh Hounds of Khorne
99060105176 Imperial Guard Cadian Snipers
99080210003 High Elf Lothern Sea Guard
99110807008 Battlefleet Gothic: Imperial Vengeance C
99800101107 Belial
99060212071 Dark Rider Command 1
99060303019 Epic: Ork Flakwagons
99061203006 Warmaster: Bretonnian Peasants
99061203005 Warmaster: Bretonnian Characters
99061208005 Warmaster: Lizardmen Cold One Riders
99810212001 Dark Elf Reaper Bolt Thrower
99120202014 Empire Helblaster Volley Gun
99120202014 Empire Helblaster Volley Gun / Helstorm
Obsolete
99060214018 Marksmen Of Miragliano
99060214036 Volands Venators Blister
99060214054 Alcatani Pikemen
99060304026 Epic: Eldar Court Of The Young King
99060307003 Epic: Imperial Thunderbolt Fighters
99060804002 Battlefleet Gothic: Eldar Shadow Cruiser
99060813005 Battlefleet Gothic: Orca Class Escorts
99061208006 Warmaster: Lizardmen Kroxigor
99110307009 Epic: Imperial Reaver Titan
99229999073 Citadel Battlemat
So there might be some claim to retiring older molds as it appears that several items are still available, just back ordered and the stuff that's being dropped is older metals (i.e. well over 10 years old)
Automatically Appended Next Post: Admittedly I'm a little annoyed that the Reaver and Falcions were both orderable yesterday when I ordered but one is no longer made at all and the other is on back order....
A pity. Tallarn were the only faction interesting enough to me to get me to make an Imperial Guard army. I always thought it would be a great faction to practice weathering on. Not that I ever had any intention of buying an all metal IG force, so it makes sense for GW to drop them. But I have a sneaking feeling this is part of a transition to a blander future where all regiments of IG dress like the IG available in plastic.
Oh well. Guess I'll just have to dusty up a Haqqislam faction instead.
It shouldn't be different as the US doesn't do any manufacturing anymore and I'm sure the specialist stuff was all produced in the UK for ages. But yeah, I'm in the US.
Odd thing is no mention of the items they've fully removed from their site...
Well GW is having a clear out then! Well time makes fools of us all I suppose.
May the miniatures rest peacefully in the great bits box in the sky. Also there are some surprising models going, Iron Warriors Lord I thought that was a popular model, I must have been wrong.
Also I knoticed the valhallan ice warriors are missing from the GW website. I'm guessing they have gone forever too????
Lord Harrab wrote: A shame, but hopefuly that means plastic steel legion kits
I fear for the worst. I've always wanted a Steel Legion force eventually, and now they might be gone completely?
Go to Forge World and buy Death Korps of Krieg figures. Those work quite well as Steel Legion. Generally better looking and lighter weight models, too, even if they are more expensive.
So what does this mean for the Vostroyans and other metal stuff that wasn't in the collectors range? What about the stuff in the collectors range that's already been Finecasted like the Empire bear man?
Arclaw wrote: I guess this was inevitable... I'm suprised they lasted this long to be honest. I really hope the old regiments don't fade into dust and do actually get an update- one day! Each plastic regiment would only actually be 3 boxes- infantry, command, and heavy weapons- and if they played the cards right they might be able to double up (Mordian/Praetorian just a head swap, Valhallan/Steel Legion could be pulled off too without compromising too much. Tallarn are more unique, but they could always do something new...)
I'll be snatching up a few of those last Tallarns, I think- just to round things off in my army. Ebay prices are bound to go up.
Incidently I've been noticing the steady decay of the Forge world Tallarn range as well. The Tallarn Sentinel is no longer for sale, as is the heavy bolter team and weapons pack. Must be While Stocks Last, like a lot of their stuff...
I think I read somewhere here on dakka that a lot of the guard stuff they did at FW was being discontinued to focus on the horus heresy stuff. Get em while you can.
Lord Harrab wrote: A shame, but hopefuly that means plastic steel legion kits
I fear for the worst. I've always wanted a Steel Legion force eventually, and now they might be gone completely?
Go to Forge World and buy Death Korps of Krieg figures. Those work quite well as Steel Legion. Generally better looking and lighter weight models, too, even if they are more expensive.
ceorron wrote: Well GW is having a clear out then! Well time makes fools of us all I suppose.
May the miniatures rest peacefully in the great bits box in the sky.
Amen !
Also there are some surprising models going, Iron Warriors Lord I thought that was a popular model, I must have been wrong.
Also I noticed the valhallan ice warriors are missing from the GW website. I'm guessing they have gone forever too????
Vahallan, like other guardsmen from second edition (and Steel Legion) were moved to the collectors section of GW's website years ago. They are still there (well for now). However Valhallan grenade launcher is noted as definitively unavailable in my country annd UK, while OK in USA. Stock status appears to be quite different depending on which country you select, this is confusing.
So what's the timing on this? Is it just until they run out, or at a certain point in time it will just no longer be available?
I am really curious as I already have a rather large collection of Steel Legion models, but would really, really hate to miss out on getting some more of the HWT models I still may need.
zedmeister wrote: Nah, I think Kingsley's got it about right. Another round of cost cutting, this time putting paid to all metal production - selling off of machines, ending of supply contracts, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if some metal casting staff aren't being let go as part of this...
GW sold off their metal casting equipment a few months after Finecrap launched BTW.
That would have been a strange move considering they use the metal casting machines for Finecast.
I bought that Iron Warrior guy the moment that FineCost was rumoured (along with a bunch of other metal things, including the Sword Brethren - dodged a real bullet there as they were one of the first things to get ruined by resin). I don't regret it.
A spincaster and smelt pot setup takes up about 6 sq ft.
Add in an air compressor for the caster, and you are up to 10. Both the Caster and compressor run off US standard 110v AC. And the setups I've seen need a gas setup for the flame on the melt pot, and a hood/vent to remove vapors.
GW already has these setups, or something similar in place.
There needs to be no "warehouse" space for cast metal anymore, because they should be able to cast them "on Demand".
And since direct only items come in blank white boxes, with a printed sticker/label, there is minimal packaging needed on hand.
A single person casting at a leisurely pace for 8 hours could get at least 1000 man-sized models cast in a workday.
The only place storage is used up is for the bulk metal ingots, and mold storage.
Simple math. Assume you are casting a unit of Guardsmen.
Assume also 16 figures in a mold (usually between 10-20).
Ingots for casting are around $16/lb right now. You need about an ounce for a man sized figure (sometimes less).
So that is about $1/figure.
Assume $1 for packaging of each 10-man unit.
Assume labor cost of $20/hr. This number includes benefits/ins/etc.
You need a second employee to spell the first, help empty the molds, and sort and package the minis. $20/hr again.
I assume utilities costs are absorbed by the 24-7 plastics facilities if they share locations.
So looking at a slow pace day, you use 48lbs (1lb/spin x 6 spins/hr x 8hrs), and 76 packages to create 768 minis, losing say 1% miscast rate.
(48*$16)+$76+($20*8*2)= $1156 cost to produce 76 unit boxes of IG.
Retail is $35/box so total if all sell is $2660. Less the $1156 above and you net $1504. Since it is direct, no middleman or retail store takes a cut, so it all goes to GW.
Per hour that is about $315(9 boxes)-$145=$170 profit.
Drop in the bucket for GW, but you only have to run casting as needed, and the pace probably isn't too far off, since they will be casting all sorts of randoms, not just one unit over and over.
tl;dr GW makes more than 50% profit on metals, even at a "garage setup" pace.
Despite the fact that there is a real demand and interest in many older Citadel models, GW apparently has not deemed it a worthwhile business opportunity since they cancelled the bit service. The collectors range was a very half hearted endeavor with the same models available for years and quite a few armies with zero or only a few models. When the switch to finecast was made it was obvious that the collectors range was not going to last.
I dont find it surprising at all that they are pulling the plug on metal miniatures or the specialist range, it seems inevitable that they would discontinue those products. Every product has a life cycle and GW gave up on the specialist games years ago.
I find it rather amusing that some people find portents of impending doom for GW because they discontinued a few products that were probably very poor sellers.
JWhex wrote: I find it rather amusing that some people find portents of impending doom for GW because they discontinued a few products that were probably very poor sellers.
It's not hard to believe people would come to that conclusion when you see all the other stuff going on with GW recently and over the past few years.
JWhex wrote: I find it rather amusing that some people find portents of impending doom for GW because they discontinued a few products that were probably very poor sellers.
It's part of the whole picture. In isolation cutting poor-selling products wouldn't be a sign of impending doom, but in the context of stagnant sales/the Hobbit disaster/etc it looks like a case of throwing away long-term potential to claim immediate cost savings and put better numbers in the next financial report. A healthier company might have re-launched the specialist games (complete with proper marketing and support), but you have to wonder if GW is even capable of taking a risk like that, or if they had to drop them simply because they couldn't afford to do anything else.
It's far larger than in 2003-2004. Can't speak on year to year but I want to say they have doubled their store foot print (and in more metros) in the last decade. Could be slightly off but I know there are more than before. In 2003 I wanna say there were maybe 20 stores in the US (Seattle, LA, Dallas, Chicago, and Baltimore). They have almost that many in California now.
You'd have to look in the back of a magazine no one reads anymore to know how many they are up to now
JWhex wrote: I find it rather amusing that some people find portents of impending doom for GW because they discontinued a few products that were probably very poor sellers.
It's part of the whole picture. In isolation cutting poor-selling products wouldn't be a sign of impending doom, but in the context of stagnant sales/the Hobbit disaster/etc it looks like a case of throwing away long-term potential to claim immediate cost savings and put better numbers in the next financial report. A healthier company might have re-launched the specialist games (complete with proper marketing and support), but you have to wonder if GW is even capable of taking a risk like that, or if they had to drop them simply because they couldn't afford to do anything else.
+1
I actually understand the discontinuation of collectors models more than specialist games, as there were very few that I, personally, would want to own as many are from a time of less refined technique and production methods. Not to say there aren't a few gems in there, but this I can understand to an extent, and there wouldn't be much to do to promote them to increase sales, whereas the negligence shown to Spec Games and the apparent undervaluation of their potential to grow the business and the hobby is bordering on criminal IMO.
But like Peregrine says, take a step back and look at the big picture, you can certainly paint a pretty negative one with the information available.
JWhex wrote: I find it rather amusing that some people find portents of impending doom for GW because they discontinued a few products that were probably very poor sellers.
I think it's more amusing that you're reading but not understanding the people saying such things. No one is looking at this event in a vacuum. It's looked at in the light of other changes and decisions that have been happening with GW as of late.
You got actual year to year store closures and openings?
I'm curious if GW's store foot print has increased/decreased in the US as well as globally.
It would take a little work but if someone wants to count the shops in WD for different years that would settle it.
The hard data that I have is at 2002 there was over 250 stores world wide. Current data for stores worldwide is over 400 stores. Approx a + 15 more stores per year globally per a 10 year basis (2002 - 2012). Actual year to year changes would be difficult at best as well as time consuming. I was curious to see if anyone did indeed some sort of research into that but in the scheme of things it is not that important to me.
I can remember the amount of stores told to me by a regional at 2002 and at 2006. Current stores open now in the US are double the amount since '06. To me it that Validates Hulksmash's comments and I am content with that
The current store model are 1 man stores at reduced hours and levels of quality service. From a business stand point I do see the savings via the costs of running one man stores.
B: Get rid of your Loss Leaders ahead of the sale so when it comes down to finding a third party to broker a deal the old stuff does not show on the books and they look smart for letting it go.
C: Cutting down on the fat makes it easier to sell to prospective buyers, instead of 3 Core ranges + 6 others, they can direct their attention to the profitability of the 3 Core.
The reasons above are why some of us also think LOTR is going the way of the dodo as soon as its legally possible for them.
Y'see, this is where I wish I had the capital to enquire about obtaining the design rights to produce the older stuff, such as the 2nd ed metal IG and the Dogs of War - I'm pretty sure they are all either over 15 years old, or due to hit 15 years old shortly...
Adam LongWalker wrote: The current store model are 1 man stores at reduced hours and levels of quality service. From a business stand point I do see the savings via the costs of running one man stores.
Personally, I think 1 man stores should only count as half of the store because they don't provide anything that games workshop's website doesn't provide. They provide a terrible experience with no value added.
B: Get rid of your Loss Leaders ahead of the sale so when it comes down to finding a third party to broker a deal the old stuff does not show on the books and they look smart for letting it go.
C: Cutting down on the fat makes it easier to sell to prospective buyers, instead of 3 Core ranges + 6 others, they can direct their attention to the profitability of the 3 Core.
The reasons above are why some of us also think LOTR is going the way of the dodo as soon as its legally possible for them.
One point to consider when making that argument.
Every game they just got rid of has something very similar to it that an entire company has formed around. That is, each line could be made profitable enough to run a small company. With the economies of scale and the market penetration GW has they could easily push these companies out of the market.
So while yes it is a smart decision to get rid of those lines, if they are not ready to invest in them, they could just as easily make them profitable rather than throwing good IP out the window. This is similar to the revamp of Dark Eldar and the rerelease of Space Hulk. These things are profitable when given half a chance. Its just a matter of someone having the corporate leadership to reform these lines rather than raising prices, and making cutbacks.
Dysartes wrote: Y'see, this is where I wish I had the capital to enquire about obtaining the design rights to produce the older stuff, such as the 2nd ed metal IG and the Dogs of War - I'm pretty sure they are all either over 15 years old, or due to hit 15 years old shortly...
Dunno if that applies.... The designs are trademarked, not patented (might be different in the UK though). Not to mention that GW would never license the old stuff anyways- that'd be competition.
I think the worst part is that they don't even have the decency to note that the old stuff is getting canned on their website.
B: Get rid of your Loss Leaders ahead of the sale so when it comes down to finding a third party to broker a deal the old stuff does not show on the books and they look smart for letting it go.
C: Cutting down on the fat makes it easier to sell to prospective buyers, instead of 3 Core ranges + 6 others, they can direct their attention to the profitability of the 3 Core.
The reasons above are why some of us also think LOTR is going the way of the dodo as soon as its legally possible for them.
One point to consider when making that argument.
Every game they just got rid of has something very similar to it that an entire company has formed around. That is, each line could be made profitable enough to run a small company. With the economies of scale and the market penetration GW has they could easily push these companies out of the market.
So while yes it is a smart decision to get rid of those lines, if they are not ready to invest in them, they could just as easily make them profitable rather than throwing good IP out the window. This is similar to the revamp of Dark Eldar and the rerelease of Space Hulk. These things are profitable when given half a chance. Its just a matter of someone having the corporate leadership to reform these lines rather than raising prices, and making cutbacks.
I totally agree with you, I am simply theorizing their decision making process having seen similar stuff from other companies in the past. The problem people are not seeing is GW have shoehorned themselves into a corner they cannot turn back from. Think of it this way, they've cut back on personnel, slashed their production capability in half and moved to the one man store setup.
If they had kept bunkers they could support the Core 3 + specialist, but from a business perspective, there's no way one man stores can grow the specialist line or even keep it stable. They are not hiring these people to be resource experts, they are hiring frontline people who they consider to have "limited shelf space" on what they can reasonably learn/sell/achieve in a year. That one person who if they kept specialist would need to know 9+ rule-sets and promote/support them. For GW, its a business decision, and its a simple one. ("But this is a good thing!")
I'm sure this looks great on paper for them. But for us, its another drop in an overflowing bucket. There's just no communication from them, no "Hey guys were going to be shelving this stuff for the near future we hope we can bring these product to you again some time. Thanks for your support."
I wish i had a window into what people internal to GWPLC are thinking right now. What worries me is after all the losses they took on dreadfleet our realistic chances of seeing one box games from these lines are slim to none.
I do hope they hand them off to FFG, now there's a group who knows what they are doing.
Fortunately, I already purchased most of my army over the last couple of years. However, it drives me nuts to know that if I ended up missing something I need, with say, a new codex change, I'll be out of luck.
I had a guess at buying a few heavy and special weapons... But I know I'm going to end up missing stuff.
I also went for the Gaunts Ghosts set and the Last Chancers.
I mean, seriously GW, for frikks sake, I have been actively collecting my Mordian Army, buying directly from them, for 15 years.
Adam LongWalker wrote: The current store model are 1 man stores at reduced hours and levels of quality service. From a business stand point I do see the savings via the costs of running one man stores.
Personally, I think 1 man stores should only count as half of the store because they don't provide anything that games workshop's website doesn't provide. They provide a terrible experience with no value added.
Of course they do, you clearly do not understand what the stores are there for.
GWs model is based around having one-stop-shops in as many locations as possible. This they believe acts as market presence and allows anyone who is of a wargaming bent to be inducted into wargaming but safely within the confines of the overall GW product base. This generates loyal GW customers who generally appreciate being shown how to play the game, model and paint armies.
When you look at the UK you see what they want to recreate elsewhere, a GW store in most major towns and multiple ones in cities. Everyone has heard of Warhammer/GW and has some appreciation of what goes on there so if you are of that bent you know where to go. So this market presence also doubles up as advertising (what's that gaudy shop? lets investigate!), where as G have stated that traditional advertising doesn't work for them.
So to GW it is not so much whether the store has one+ staff or a huge foot print it is more about actually having as many as possible. Increasing rents and rates mean smaller less mainstream locations true but a store off main street is as good as one on main street if you bear in mind the above desire to spam stores.
ianj253 wrote: Thank you for understanding that time=money. Most of the people posting here don't factor that in. Like I said early making and accounting profit doesn't mean you're making an economic profit. They'd definitely be better of shifting their resources to other projects.
The funny thing is "the basement mba's" don't understand business. God forbid a company restructures and trims the fat to keep up with a changing market.
I understand that, I really do. It's possible that the whole operation is simple too "low cost/low gain" to be worth the hassle. That said, they're charging a premium retail price for old models. Spin casting isn't monkey work, but it's no more than semi-skilled. I simply think that it's a "very low cost/sort of low gain" thing.
Where things are different is if they are looking at a major capital expense to buy new casting equiptment, but even then...there's money to be had. I know this because I know what other companies make money at selling, at lower prices.
So while I would not be surprised that metal casting has the lowest profit margin and incidental revenues, I'm slightly surprised that they're turning their back on what revenues it is.
Hell, recreate Marauder miniatures (or, more likely, some clever name like "Longbeard's Forge") as a wholly owned subsidiary. give them some space, some equiptment, and the back catalog of master models. Let them run like FW does, and see how much cash they can bring in.
That's what I was thinking, people are able to sell spincast metal figures for far less than GW do and still make a decent profit, and I imagine all of the resin-casters and at least some of the other staff will be able to spincast metal if there is a machine for it, nor are moulds *that* expensive. So all they'd need to maintain to keep the line going is to keep a metal spincaster somewhere with a small amount of pewter, and only fire it up when something is bought and someone has the time. Or if they are cutting costs and staffing to the point they can't justify it, they could easily outsource it to any of the dozens of local metal casting operations (or one of the staff could get casting equipment for their garage and do it themselves at the weekend).
If no-one was buying the stuff, the cost to them beyond the rack of moulds would be negligable, and since I'm sure they own the buildings at WHW I'd be stunned if they didn't have enough space sitting idle.
I suspect, maybe, that they want to eradicate any evidence of them producing metal figures because 1. it makes finecast look bad and 2. If customers don't know they do metal it might hurt the 2nd hand market for old metal figures.
B: Get rid of your Loss Leaders ahead of the sale so when it comes down to finding a third party to broker a deal the old stuff does not show on the books and they look smart for letting it go.
C: Cutting down on the fat makes it easier to sell to prospective buyers, instead of 3 Core ranges + 6 others, they can direct their attention to the profitability of the 3 Core.
The reasons above are why some of us also think LOTR is going the way of the dodo as soon as its legally possible for them.
One point to consider when making that argument.
Every game they just got rid of has something very similar to it that an entire company has formed around. That is, each line could be made profitable enough to run a small company. With the economies of scale and the market penetration GW has they could easily push these companies out of the market.
So while yes it is a smart decision to get rid of those lines, if they are not ready to invest in them, they could just as easily make them profitable rather than throwing good IP out the window. This is similar to the revamp of Dark Eldar and the rerelease of Space Hulk. These things are profitable when given half a chance. Its just a matter of someone having the corporate leadership to reform these lines rather than raising prices, and making cutbacks.
I totally agree with you, I am simply theorizing their decision making process having seen similar stuff from other companies in the past. The problem people are not seeing is GW have shoehorned themselves into a corner they cannot turn back from. Think of it this way, they've cut back on personnel, slashed their production capability in half and moved to the one man store setup.
If they had kept bunkers they could support the Core 3 + specialist, but from a business perspective, there's no way one man stores can grow the specialist line or even keep it stable. They are not hiring these people to be resource experts, they are hiring frontline people who they consider to have "limited shelf space" on what they can reasonably learn/sell/achieve in a year. That one person who if they kept specialist would need to know 9+ rule-sets and promote/support them. For GW, its a business decision, and its a simple one. ("But this is a good thing!")
I'm sure this looks great on paper for them. But for us, its another drop in an overflowing bucket. There's just no communication from them, no "Hey guys were going to be shelving this stuff for the near future we hope we can bring these product to you again some time. Thanks for your support."
I wish i had a window into what people internal to GWPLC are thinking right now. What worries me is after all the losses they took on dreadfleet our realistic chances of seeing one box games from these lines are slim to none.
I do hope they hand them off to FFG, now there's a group who knows what they are doing.
This is going to draw jokes about "What is the internet lol" but I don't think that GW needs stores to sell the smaller games. If there was product support and a website on which they feature prominently, people would buy them. I have paid about $500 to companies like mantic, perry etc this year, never having stepped foot into a mantic store. Companies are making a mint on these products without any kind of physical presence. Heck with GW's pricing, they could afford to make a combined necromunda/penal legion plastic boxed set. They could sell extra minis to existing players very easily.
I mean, seriously GW, for frikks sake, I have been actively collecting my Mordian Army, buying directly from them, for 15 years.
You never know this may just hail a move to plastic for the old guard, they have gone this way with special characters so maybe whole armies ? It would seem better for players overall.
They have done Cadians to death really, and jungle fighters I don't think were ever that popular. GW will be looking at maybe redoing one of the IG lines for the next codex. You only need a box of infantry, and box of heavy support weapons with all the options. So long as all the specialist weapons come on the sprue of the infantry and there are plenty of conversion ops then It is conceivable that maybe GW could redo their imperial guard in plastics?
Ugly miniatures decades olds being discontinued? I can live with that. Being honest, I would have done this earlier.
And I say this being the owner of several ugly miniatures decades old. But I live in 2013, and I want 2013 quality miniatures, not 1990 quality miniatures.
Those minis remind me of walkmans, Spectrum, Ghostbusters, Fresh Prince of Bel-Air, and things like that. And all of them are things I've replaced for better.
GBL wrote: So while yes it is a smart decision to get rid of those lines, if they are not ready to invest in them, they could just as easily make them profitable rather than throwing good IP out the window.
No one is throwing good IPs out the window. GW can at any point revitalize any of it's back catalogue lines if they see a market that would warrant taking design and production capabilities away from their main lines.
garrapignado wrote: Ugly miniatures decades olds being discontinued? I can live with that. Being honest, I would have done this earlier.
And I say this being the owner of several ugly miniatures decades old. But I live in 2013, and I want 2013 quality miniatures, not 1990 quality miniatures.
Those minis remind me of walkmans, Spectrum, Ghostbusters, Fresh Prince of Bel-Air, and things like that. And all of them are things I've replaced for better.
I still have my Atari ST to play old games from time to time...
To some degree they are. There's a good chance that they're throwing away the molds (shareholders don't like spending money storing molds you aren't even using), and dropping support is going to drive even more of the community to games from other companies. So it might be possible to bring them back in some form, but it's going to be harder than if they'd just kept everything in production. That suggests that they aren't concerned at all with the possibility of a future re-launch and are just dumping the whole line.
GW seem to be doing a lot to move out some excess stuff. GW may hopefully disappear but not out of business. It seems as if they are getting ready to sell up. With any luck a decent company will get it and do right by at least 40k, fantasy not really bothered about
Peregrine wrote: To some degree they are. There's a good chance that they're throwing away the molds
It's quite possible that they will throw the moulds away. The point is, I'm sure the moulds for Chaos Renegades are long gone but if GW would want to bring them back in their glorious 90's from, they could do that at any moment. They probably wouldn't sell much, because we're in 2013, but they could.
Those old models are, well, old. Outside of nostalgia factors, most wouldn't sell no matter how much marketing money you'd put behind them, or not sell enough to make it a viable alternative to marketing something else in the catalogue.
Just looked to see what what they still had listed, saw the Valhallans squad for £20 even though I could have sworn that they were £25 couple of years ago.
Peregrine wrote: To some degree they are. There's a good chance that they're throwing away the molds
It's quite possible that they will throw the moulds away. The point is, I'm sure the moulds for Chaos Renegades are long gone but if GW would want to bring them back in their glorious 90's from, they could do that at any moment. They probably wouldn't sell much, because we're in 2013, but they could.
Many of those molds were probably worn out anyway. Likely they'll be destroyed. However, I doubt they would destroy master models.
Backfire wrote: Many of those molds were probably worn out anyway. Likely they'll be destroyed. However, I doubt they would destroy master models.
They could be stashing master moulds or perhaps resin masters, but at this point the sheer volume would start to be an issue if they wanted to keep each and every one of those. Some models are gone for good, it's just the nature of things.
Certainly they do have less people. The standard staff when a store was in a mall in the US was 5 and normally they tried for 6. 1 Manager, 2 Full-Timers and 2-3 "Key Timers". This was mostly due to mandatory mall hours.
So it would take 5-6 stores to make one store staff level in 2003. And that's not including bunkers. But, they do have a larger overall footprint in the US than they did 10 years ago and it seems to only be growing with lots of new stores opening up in states they were never in before.
Those minis remind me of walkmans, Spectrum, Ghostbusters, Fresh Prince of Bel-Air, and things like that. And all of them are things I've replaced for better.
You got actual year to year store closures and openings?
I'm curious if GW's store foot print has increased/decreased in the US as well as globally.
GW has less sales staff that 5 or 10 years ago, whatever the footprint.
Only staff growing was bean counters
Yea but to me that is referring to quality of services which I agree with you is on the decline.
What disturbs me is that going to their US official site they give the numbers world wide and in the US. I will have to say that these are "official" current numbers as the entire site has been updated to reflect the current year.
Now there will be people saying that those numbers are outdated. If that is so then we call into question the quality of services being rendered, productivity within the corporation, and the ability to keep themselves and their official online site correctly updated. Is this is how a so called " World's leading manufacturer, distributor, and retailer of toy soldiers, model kits, and table top strategy games", being ran at amateurish levels? This is not rocket science to update their web sites on a regular basis.
Current online numbers are 86 US stores. 375 world wide. By the way you should read the line about not encroaching 3rd party retailers. I am so not going to give GW money to see an rag mag for data that they should currently have correct online.
I call into question on the real reasons why all of the lower tier products being removed especially with current POD styles of concepts currently being employed within the New Now". Making molds are not that hard to do. keeping the product line alive would not be hard to do as well.
What is happening is that again short term profits are being generated as they sell out their products. Cheap marketing hysteria that works as people will impulse buy a product now than think about a few days later, Everything of late, the increase of product line in codexs, models, the C&D's being thrown out. The removal of the CEO ETC are all short term profit measures.
The sudden increase of licensing their IP's to video games again shows the need for short term cash. Ironically I also believe that this is the reason why specialist and collector ranges are gone. To be turned into Video Games and other licensing products. Now Marvel did the same thing, increasing their licensing IP's out to make video games, movies and other products. Where did this lead them? To be bought out by Disney for chump change back in '09.
What GW is doing now is Vertical Integration, their continued effort of complete control of their revenue stream from manufacturing directly to consumers.
A simple Youtube video will tell you what this means.
Yea probably one of the signs of GWs deathknells, might be why they have been spitting out books in rapid succession, get stocks as high as possible before the inevitable cash out
The sudden increase of licensing their IP's to video games again shows the need for short term cash. Ironically I also believe that this is the reason why specialist and collector ranges are gone. To be turned into Video Games and other licensing products. Now Marvel did the same thing, increasing their licensing IP's out to make video games, movies and other products. Where did this lead them? To be bought out by Disney for chump change back in '09.
You think $4.2 Billion US is chump change? The company had been run into the ground in 1996 by Ron Perelman (not the actor) and was literally bankrupt. To essentially go from nothing to $4.2 Billion isn't bad. As for value number for comparison, Perelman bought the company originally for $89 million US in 1989. Also, Isaac Perlmutter who brought the company out of bankruptcy in 1998 and help run it till it was bought out is believe to be the most influential person at Disney since the death of Steve Jobs. The movie path was pushed by Perlmutter and Avi Arad openly back in 90's as well, so it wasn't a "final ditch for short term cash".
For the SG and Collector Ranges being closed down, another issue might be in light of the recent increased released schedule. Production capacity is at a premium. Why waste a machine producing low profit/low turnover items when it can be used to produce the new wave of figs? Even if it doesn't require a large footprint and staff, that space and staff can be used for a more profitable venture.
As for the SG IP, brought up the possibility of these games being licensed out to FFG in the Dust thread. FFG is already producing most of their abandoned board/card games. GW might be reaching the point their relationship with FFG is close enough they don't worry about them releasing the small scale games. The royalties from FFG may be as much as they were making with the SG store.
The sudden increase of licensing their IP's to video games again shows the need for short term cash. Ironically I also believe that this is the reason why specialist and collector ranges are gone. To be turned into Video Games and other licensing products. Now Marvel did the same thing, increasing their licensing IP's out to make video games, movies and other products. Where did this lead them? To be bought out by Disney for chump change back in '09.
You think $4.2 Billion US is chump change? The company had been run into the ground in 1996 by Ron Perelman (not the actor) and was literally bankrupt. To essentially go from nothing to $4.2 Billion isn't bad. As for value number for comparison, Perelman bought the company originally for $89 million US in 1989. Also, Isaac Perlmutter who brought the company out of bankruptcy in 1998 and help run it till it was bought out is believe to be the most influential person at Disney since the death of Steve Jobs. The movie path was pushed by Perlmutter and Avi Arad openly back in 90's as well, so it wasn't a "final ditch for short term cash".
For the SG and Collector Ranges being closed down, another issue might be in light of the recent increased released schedule. Production capacity is at a premium. Why waste a machine producing low profit/low turnover items when it can be used to produce the new wave of figs? Even if it doesn't require a large footprint and staff, that space and staff can be used for a more profitable venture.
As for the SG IP, brought up the possibility of these games being licensed out to FFG in the Dust thread. FFG is already producing most of their abandoned board/card games. GW might be reaching the point their relationship with FFG is close enough they don't worry about them releasing the small scale games. The royalties from FFG may be as much as they were making with the SG store.
Absolutely I consider it chump change for what Disney purchased it for and what it is getting now from that purchase and future revenue. In that sector of the entertainment industry I still have my business licenses, the IP's from that era as well as the IP attorneys to ruthlessly protect those IP's I created/purchased. I know what I have seen and live through that industry with its up and downs. I represented two artists at that time. I did that because they are my friends and I had the financial firepower to make it happen. Otherwise they were going to get screwed. Artists I find are great at what they do but more or less many are not so good on the business end of things. I spent a lot of money in investments and time within that sector of the entertainment industry.
Even invested in a comic/game store, and is a reason why I went so very hard into real estate after seeing the corporate golden parachutes from that Comic industry /games debacle. Wealth opens many doors and looking into that world that few people see opens your eyes about the realities they believe in. I saw so many talented artists may of them my friends getting the royal shaft.
The Perelman's in the world are of the same cut of the same cloth as of the CEO Kirby's of the world. I despise them both. I know enough about Disney to stay the hell away from them. You never mess with the mouse.
As far as FFG and dust tactics? Sort of expected it to happen.
As far as waste in time with production of the specialty lines? That depends on perspective and staffing. I know it is very doable but I also stated the probable reasons why they are cutting the product lines. That is IP licensing. They will make more short term profit from their licenses.
I seen how the many sectors of the entertainment industry that I have been involved in since 1970 have changed and matured. Some for the better and some for the worse. I consider it a blessing since I lived through it, met a great many of talented people and respected all of them for what they gave to make our entertainment industry, from video games to miniatures.
That is why I am such a proponent for kick starter and other methods of micro investments/crowd source funding as see a new light of innovation that I have not seen in years. I want to see new ideas and new concepts being placed out to the consumer.
So in answering your comment, I understand where you are coming from, but I live through that times and its harsh realities. I saw people getting hurt. Dreams crushed by corporate ideology. I won't comment further on this line of thought and additional posts as it brings up some old memories of a time you have to be such an evil bastard to get ahead in life at the expense of others.
pities2004 wrote: Collectors range and Specialist games didn't make much money, why not cut them?
The sky isn't falling yet people.
The thing about the Specialist Games line is that it could have been making them money.
Heck, the success of Dreadball shows that my least favorite SG still has some life in it. (I did not like Blood Bowl, I do not like Dreadball, but I have been the only person in a room with a dozen people that did not like Dreadball - it is entirely fair to say that this is a case of personal preference, not what is or is not a good game.)
If a game or line is not marketed then of course it is going to have flat sales.... Mordheim and Necromunda in particular could be making GW money.
That said - I have been expecting the end of The Collector's Range since Finecrap came out - while they are making money they likely are not worth converting to Findcash. An upfront cost on unknown but low expected sales.
Doesn't mean that I am happy about it, and I am annoyed enough with Gee Dub that I doubt that will send them the money for The Carnival of Chaos miniatures, much though I love them.
I've noticed in this thread and the one on Specialist games people posting along the lines that it's fine generally because;
It wasn't making them money.
However, these ranges did make GW money, and could have easily continued to be successful if GW had not shoved them away into the corner and refuse to support them, and not shove them into a corner like the ugly child in a family photo.
blood reaper wrote: I've noticed in this thread and the one on Specialist games people posting along the lines that it's fine generally because;
It wasn't making them money.
However, these ranges did make GW money, and could have easily continued to be successful if GW had not shoved them away into the corner and refuse to support them, and not shove them into a corner like the ugly child in a family photo.
Its not just that they aren't making GW money, its that the nostalgia of these games, and their basic ideas are making other companies heaps of money.
For the SG and Collector Ranges being closed down, another issue might be in light of the recent increased released schedule. Production capacity is at a premium. Why waste a machine producing low profit/low turnover items when it can be used to produce the new wave of figs? Even if it doesn't require a large footprint and staff, that space and staff can be used for a more profitable venture.
Can they? What is this "more profitable venture"? The Hobbit? Ummm...no. More Space Marine figures? Just how much Space Marines the market can absorb?
As for the SG IP, brought up the possibility of these games being licensed out to FFG in the Dust thread. FFG is already producing most of their abandoned board/card games. GW might be reaching the point their relationship with FFG is close enough they don't worry about them releasing the small scale games. The royalties from FFG may be as much as they were making with the SG store.
They will never do it. It's one thing licensing board games or RPG's, miniatures are their core business and they don't want any other company make money off them and have creative control.
Besides (maybe) saving some money, what they managed to do with this decision was an extra cash. I'm about to buy Cypher, the Iron Warriors Warsmith and Night Lords Hero before they are gone for good, and I can't believe I'm the only one doing last minute shopping.
If this was part of their strategy to get a "boost", well you GW.
garrapignado wrote: Ugly miniatures decades olds being discontinued? I can live with that. Being honest, I would have done this earlier.
And I say this being the owner of several ugly miniatures decades old. But I live in 2013, and I want 2013 quality miniatures, not 1990 quality miniatures.
Those minis remind me of walkmans, Spectrum, Ghostbusters, Fresh Prince of Bel-Air, and things like that. And all of them are things I've replaced for better.
Fresh prince should never have been listed here..... still amazing and a lot more funny than the crap on TV now.
Absolutely I consider it chump change for what Disney purchased it for and what it is getting now from that purchase and future revenue.
It is easy to say that now, but hindsight that is always 20/20. Would you be saying that if the Thor and Captain American movies had been more like Green Lantern and last Superman movies? Back in 2009 there was a lot of talk that Disney had paid too much.
But now I'm confused, first you say licensing IPs for movies was a short term cash grab and now you say the movies were the strength of the company? Licensing IPs out are an act of desperation and short term cash grabs, except when they are successful?
However, these ranges did make GW money, and could have easily continued to be successful if GW had not shoved them away into the corner and refuse to support them, and not shove them into a corner like the ugly child in a family photo.
The fact remains that you have nothing that can support this claim.
In order to support the game, they have to allocate resources to the game. If they hire three people at $40k a year to maintain it, is the profit they're making enough to sustain that $120k in FTE? Further, is that profit more than the amount of profit that $120K in FTE would produce were it spent on one of their primary lines? If the answer to the latter question was yes, one can surmise they wouldn't cut the lines.
Believe it or not, the folks making the business decisions at GW know more about how to keep their business in the black than you do and they have to support their decisions with data in order to get those decisions approved.
However, these ranges did make GW money, and could have easily continued to be successful if GW had not shoved them away into the corner and refuse to support them, and not shove them into a corner like the ugly child in a family photo.
The fact remains that you have nothing that can support this claim.
Most have been kept in production since the 1990's, and continued to have tournaments based around them until the early to mid 2000's.
However, these ranges did make GW money, and could have easily continued to be successful if GW had not shoved them away into the corner and refuse to support them, and not shove them into a corner like the ugly child in a family photo.
The fact remains that you have nothing that can support this claim.
Most have been kept in production since the 1990's, and continued to have tournaments based around them until the early to mid 2000's.
They're in production because it's basically a sunk cost. The moulds are already done and they're buying material in bulk.
People are still playing in Heroscape tournaments.
However, these ranges did make GW money, and could have easily continued to be successful if GW had not shoved them away into the corner and refuse to support them, and not shove them into a corner like the ugly child in a family photo.
The fact remains that you have nothing that can support this claim.
Most have been kept in production since the 1990's, and continued to have tournaments based around them until the early to mid 2000's.
They're in production because it's basically a sunk cost. The moulds are already done and they're buying material in bulk.
People are still playing in Heroscape tournaments.
If no one is buying them, the production is still a sunk cost.
However, these ranges did make GW money, and could have easily continued to be successful if GW had not shoved them away into the corner and refuse to support them, and not shove them into a corner like the ugly child in a family photo.
The fact remains that you have nothing that can support this claim.
Most have been kept in production since the 1990's, and continued to have tournaments based around them until the early to mid 2000's.
They're in production because it's basically a sunk cost. The moulds are already done and they're buying material in bulk.
People are still playing in Heroscape tournaments.
If no one is buying them, the production is still a sunk cost.
Are the Heroscape tournaments official?
Wait, I think we actually agree.
No to both of those. I'm actually in full support of them dumping the SG lines.
I think they're best bet is to let FFG produce them and if they want them to be 28mm, then to work in conjunciton with them to supply plastic kits. Let FFG handle the support, the paper production, etc.
perezba7 wrote: Real quick clarification question, Are collector models made in finecast also being discontinued? I really hope not.
We think so, sadly, seems GW are likely being a bit sweeping here and that everything in the collectors range is going. I don't have proof of this just seems implicit in the news.
I don't think it's that GWcan't do a good job, it's that they don't want to support the line. Which is where you pull in someone like FFG to handle the support.
I think GWs handling of FAQs for 6th has shown that, if they want, they can do a reasonably good job of supporting a rule set (whether or not FAQed issues should have been discovered in playtesting, etc, is an entirely separate issue).
I mean, I think it basically boils down to a numbers game. Vac-Chambers have to be used for a model, which model makes us the most money? If it were the SGs or the Collectors editions, they'd still be making them.
I don't think it's that GWcan't do a good job, it's that they don't want to support the line. Which is where you pull in someone like FFG to handle the support.
I think GWs handling of FAQs for 6th has shown that, if they want, they can do a reasonably good job of supporting a rule set (whether or not FAQed issues should have been discovered in playtesting, etc, is an entirely separate issue).
I've found it incredibly poor. GW's job on the Chaos Daemons FAQ answered none of the questions asked by the player base.
ImperialKnight wrote: Just heard about this, I was hoping to start a Valhallan centric army
Well, having a whole platoon of Valhallan myself, including long OOP figurines, I must admit that if my old collection would have been small by 2006, and if I were not putting so much effort painting it, I would have jumped and switched wholeheartedly to another range. The another range being Vostroyan firstborn. Already 7 years old, but they look just crazy good to my eyes. Even more, if you have some painting skills to make them look better than the uninspired flashy gold / red dudes from GW website.
I think they're best bet is to let FFG produce them and if they want them to be 28mm, then to work in conjunciton with them to supply plastic kits. Let FFG handle the support, the paper production, etc.
I don't understand where this "FFG is the Messiah" comes from. First, GW would never license them to FFG, second, FFG itself is not exactly known from their games having good balance, concise rules or timely FAQ's.
I think they're best bet is to let FFG produce them and if they want them to be 28mm, then to work in conjunciton with them to supply plastic kits. Let FFG handle the support, the paper production, etc.
I don't understand where this "FFG is the Messiah" comes from. First, GW would never license them to FFG, second, FFG itself is not exactly known from their games having good balance, concise rules or timely FAQ's.
And this is because you said so?
They already have a fairly robust relationship with FFG. The FFG warnammer branded products are popular. There are plenty of people that very much enjoy their games.
As to your latter complaints: none of those seem to keep their games from selling well.
However, these ranges did make GW money, and could have easily continued to be successful if GW had not shoved them away into the corner and refuse to support them, and not shove them into a corner like the ugly child in a family photo.
The fact remains that you have nothing that can support this claim.
In order to support the game, they have to allocate resources to the game. If they hire three people at $40k a year to maintain it, is the profit they're making enough to sustain that $120k in FTE? Further, is that profit more than the amount of profit that $120K in FTE would produce were it spent on one of their primary lines? If the answer to the latter question was yes, one can surmise they wouldn't cut the lines.
Believe it or not, the folks making the business decisions at GW know more about how to keep their business in the black than you do and they have to support their decisions with data in order to get those decisions approved.
You are quite right that people claiming these lines were making money are unfounded. Also, your three hypothetical 40k wage earners would cost quite a bit more than 120K after you calculate fringe benefits and whatever social security tax equivalent is applicable in the UK.
ANother thing that the basement mba's that post here almost always forget is opportunity cost for keeping a product line going. Resources are always finite and if you can make a lot more money with product x than product y then product y will be cut.
I think it is too bad that GW does not have the resources or interest to support one or two of the specialists games, not just to make them available for the rare collector but so that more people would actually play them. Even rotating them like they used to do would be great but I think it was clear to everyone years ago that the specialist games were "dead men walking".
the store I used to go to told me how much those games were crappy and how I should just buy fantasy instead.
they seemed to insult a lot of things I liked (including some of my models)... yeah that was the final nail in the coffin, when they said my old harlequins were ugly and how the new ones were so much better (the new ones which that I didn't care much for).
Rainbow Dash wrote: the store I used to go to told me how much those games were crappy and how I should just buy fantasy instead.
they seemed to insult a lot of things I liked (including some of my models)... yeah that was the final nail in the coffin, when they said my old harlequins were ugly and how the new ones were so much better (the new ones which that I didn't care much for).
GW srote or FLGS?
This happens way too often in my local GW, to the point where I really, really want to just look at the guy and say 'you don't need to jump on the company line, I won't tell if you give me an honest opinion'.
Rainbow Dash wrote: the store I used to go to told me how much those games were crappy and how I should just buy fantasy instead.
they seemed to insult a lot of things I liked (including some of my models)... yeah that was the final nail in the coffin, when they said my old harlequins were ugly and how the new ones were so much better (the new ones which that I didn't care much for).
GW srote or FLGS?
This happens way too often in my local GW, to the point where I really, really want to just look at the guy and say 'you don't need to jump on the company line, I won't tell if you give me an honest opinion'.
GW store, they refuse to listen to any opinions (if I say like an old rule set or codex or model better) try to sell me things I plain don't need (those magic cards even though no army I has can use them, at the time of leaving I had skaven, orks and khorne chaos... yeah that would have been money well invested).
I really felt like they did not give two craps about me and just tried to get me to buy things and go away, no hobby talk, nothing that's not buying or planning to buy things.
I get a fraction of sales badgering in a non miniatures store or a FLGS
Peregrine wrote: shareholders don't like spending money storing molds you aren't even using
I doubt most of the shareholders even know what or how many moulds GW has.
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silent25 wrote: As for the SG IP, brought up the possibility of these games being licensed out to FFG in the Dust thread. FFG is already producing most of their abandoned board/card games. GW might be reaching the point their relationship with FFG is close enough they don't worry about them releasing the small scale games. The royalties from FFG may be as much as they were making with the SG store.
God I hope so. I'd love to work on a Necromunda: Redux by FFG. That'd be amazing!!!
I think they're best bet is to let FFG produce them and if they want them to be 28mm, then to work in conjunciton with them to supply plastic kits. Let FFG handle the support, the paper production, etc.
I don't understand where this "FFG is the Messiah" comes from. First, GW would never license them to FFG, second, FFG itself is not exactly known from their games having good balance, concise rules or timely FAQ's.
And this is because you said so?
No, it is so because they have never done it before and knowing what control freaks they are, they'd never outsource creative and production control of a miniatures game to some other company. They didn't even license Space Hulk, and that is a board game.
As to your latter complaints: none of those seem to keep their games from selling well.
No they don't. Just like in case of GW...
Some of the Specialist Games are still market leaders in their respective niche. Blood Bowl is easily in top10 most popular miniatures games worldwide. BFG remains much more popular than any other similar game. Mordheim and Necromunda still maintain considerable following, even though GW probably doesn't sell much of their miniatures anymore, but that is their own fault for not updating their product lines. Plus, their sales are direct orders which is most profitable way of sales for GW. Sure, revenue they provide is probably pittance compared to WHFB/40k: but I don't believe they aren't or couldn't be made profitable.
Lord Harrab wrote: A shame, but hopefuly that means plastic steel legion kits
I fear for the worst. I've always wanted a Steel Legion force eventually, and now they might be gone completely? Not sure if I'm willing to take a ~$350-700 blind plunge to get all the units I might want, or perhaps buy one of everything so that I could cast an entire army if the range is indeed canceled and not replaced. I would have no moral qualms with recasting an army that GW refuses to sell me any more.
I would not have any moral qualms with that either, but hurry up if you are planning to buy one of each model - the "Imperial Guard Steel Legion Officer with Power Sword" seems to be out of stock already.
Well, from what I've seen they have yet to actually discontinue any of their collectors range or the specialist games.
It's all still up there.
It will be a shame if they do decide to stop making them though. Although I can understand why they would-it costs money to make them, and not enough people buy them I imagine.
Has anyone really touched on why this is happening?
It's not like this range (or the Specialist ranges) would have cost anything to keep going. They've got the moulds presumably, a few of each item kept in stock, and presumably sales of the range keep ticking over - just a guess here, but you would have to think so considering the price some of the (still purchasable) Specialist and collector ranges go for on ebay.
So that makes me think:
- Change in centre of production? TBH I'm amazed it hasn't happened already, but if they were moving out to the Far East for all production then it would make sense to streamline.
- The other obvious one would be the company is selling, and again streamlining the portfolio is something that might be seen as advantageous to make the company more attractive to a buyer. Although my knowledge of this kind of process is on shaky ground - would GW really sell to another company, considering the almost cultish corporate culture that seems to exist within the company? I think perhaps not.
- Everything plastic? They're not ready yet, there is still a vast amount of the range not available in plastic, including some of the best and surely most popular character models (despite Finecast). To be honest, I don't really think this one is possible, but just added another point to make the use of bullet points more valid
Of course I'm going off the assumption here that the Specialist/Collectors range costs very little to keep running. It might be of course that it costs a little, and during the current expenditure diet of GW, even a relatively minor expenditure might be viewed as expendable.
I suspect it costs more to keep up and running than people think and they can make more profit from using that capital/space on something else which is probably enough to make the change work for them
I'll also guess that some of figures may well be reaching the point where they've run out of 1st generation masters in good condition to make moulds from (so they'd need to replace figures anyway, or start using 2nd generation minis as masters and thus loose fidelity)
add those 2 together and in makes sense (from GWs point of view to drop the whole lot)
1 - all of the, or a considerable amount of the range is metal. We know GW is dropping metal long term as it move to finecast and multipart plastic. In light of this they would simply have to keep metal and the whole metal production line there *just* for the specialist games. That is the one major cost/legacy that they don't want. I know I know about the problems with finecast but GW has committed and they arn't going to go back.
2 - Space Hulk showed the way forward for a company looking to make money off of "Specialist Games" aka the less than popular ranges GW has made but only seem to have niche appeal. Maybe they are profitable or maybe they aren't or maybe they could be again made to be profitable with a little care and attention but short, mid term strategy just doesn't seem to support that.
Saying all that, in some ways it does seem pointless to get rid of something that is liked and with a little work made profitable again.
No, it is so because they have never done it before and knowing what control freaks they are, they'd never outsource creative and production control of a miniatures game to some other company. They didn't even license Space Hulk, and that is a board game.
I'd argue allowing FFG to do the high detail busts for Relic is step forward. Will they allow them to make 28mm minis ever? Probably not. Does that mean GW can't produce the minis for FFG to include in games? Nope.
Some of the Specialist Games are still market leaders in their respective niche. Blood Bowl is easily in top10 most popular miniatures games worldwide.
Anything factual here to back this up? Or more wild speculation on your part? With Dreadball, is it even the most popular Miniature sports game?
BFG remains much more popular than any other similar game.
. Proof? Because Spartan Games would beg to differ.
Mordheim and Necromunda still maintain considerable following, even though GW probably doesn't sell much of their miniatures anymore, but that is their own fault for not updating their product lines.
Or maybe it's that this mystery "considerable following" isn't bringing new people into the game and the Necromunda and Mordheim boxed sets don't sell?
Plus, their sales are direct orders which is most profitable way of sales for GW. Sure, revenue they provide is probably pittance compared to WHFB/40k: but I don't believe they aren't or couldn't be made profitable.
So they should continue subsidizing unprofitable or low profit games and use resources that could be expended on something more profitable? No.
Saying all that, in some ways it does seem pointless to get rid of something that is liked and with a little work made profitable again.
But the problem is that "little work" costs money and manpower. Money and manpower that can be allocated to their more profitable lines. Most businesses are running tight budgets right now, and it probably makes little fiscal sense to pump $$ into a questionably profitable line when it can be used in more proven areas.
silent25 wrote: As for the SG IP, brought up the possibility of these games being licensed out to FFG in the Dust thread. FFG is already producing most of their abandoned board/card games. GW might be reaching the point their relationship with FFG is close enough they don't worry about them releasing the small scale games. The royalties from FFG may be as much as they were making with the SG store.
God I hope so. I'd love to work on a Necromunda: Redux by FFG. That'd be amazing!!!
I don't know what level of influence you have at your position at FFG, if any, but I can't encourage you strongly enough to go through whatever avenues are available to you to try and make this happen. Even if nothing were to come of it, knowing that at least a conversation took place through official channels broaching the subject, I would be happy. At least I would know someone tried something to breathe new life into the game.
Edit: Oops, wrong thread for the second half of my post. Removing and reposting in the correct thread!
No, it is so because they have never done it before and knowing what control freaks they are, they'd never outsource creative and production control of a miniatures game to some other company. They didn't even license Space Hulk, and that is a board game.
I'd argue allowing FFG to do the high detail busts for Relic is step forward. Will they allow them to make 28mm minis ever? Probably not. Does that mean GW can't produce the minis for FFG to include in games? Nope.
Why would they go through the trouble of producing miniatures for someone else? That doesn't make one bit of sense.
Some of the Specialist Games are still market leaders in their respective niche. Blood Bowl is easily in top10 most popular miniatures games worldwide.
Anything factual here to back this up? Or more wild speculation on your part? With Dreadball, is it even the most popular Miniature sports game?
BFG remains much more popular than any other similar game.
. Proof? Because Spartan Games would beg to differ.
Why would they beg to differ with such an obvious fact?
And do you have any idea how much organized play, leagues and tournaments Blood Bowl has?
Sure, Dreadball seems to be gaining popularity, but at this point it can't be even remotely close. As I recall, last years Eurobowl had something like 120 participants.
Plus, their sales are direct orders which is most profitable way of sales for GW. Sure, revenue they provide is probably pittance compared to WHFB/40k: but I don't believe they aren't or couldn't be made profitable.
So they should continue subsidizing unprofitable or low profit games and use resources that could be expended on something more profitable? No.
So, by that logic Toyota should stop making Hiluxes because Corolla sells more, and just build more Corollas...?
Well no, because Toyota would lose market share to one of their competitors.
But perhaps that is the point, and by extension a good argument against Monopolies; as we've seen in both the wargaming industry (and in many others) it makes the companies that inhabit them very lazy, and often (arguably like in this instance) the consumer loses out simply because the company involved would otherwise lose a few bob.
What matter if the customer feels short changed or is upset by the way a company has behaved? There is no option for them to go elsewhere.
OrdlandoTheTechnicoloured wrote:I suspect it costs more to keep up and running than people think and they can make more profit from using that capital/space on something else which is probably enough to make the change work for them
I'll also guess that some of figures may well be reaching the point where they've run out of 1st generation masters in good condition to make moulds from (so they'd need to replace figures anyway, or start using 2nd generation minis as masters and thus loose fidelity)
add those 2 together and in makes sense (from GWs point of view to drop the whole lot)
I guess we won't know the answer to this without some insider information!
From my knowledge of how some small-fry/garage manufacturers function, the overheads can be extremely small (i.e. the amount of historical producers who just have a collection of moulds, and then make something as and when they get an order, quite often as a part time job/hobby in the evening!) Not to say that this is how GW was running things though, and it may have been extremely inefficient.
But yes I suppose it a number of the original moulds were getting to the point where they need re-tooling, then maybe someone made the executive decision to scrap the lot (the fans be damned).
Sure, Dreadball seems to be gaining popularity, but at this point it can't be even remotely close. As I recall, last years Eurobowl had something like 120 participants.
Obvious fact? I think obvious has different meanings to you and I.
And I only browsed your linked website....but I don't think it really speaks as strongly as you think it does. The largest tournament that I saw had 28 participants. There were multiple with around 10. Hardly earth shattering.
Eurobowl having 112 participants is great and all, but the game isn't bringing in any new blood.
So, by that logic Toyota should stop making Hiluxes because Corolla sells more, and just build more Corollas...?
Well, they don't even sell many iterations of the "hilux" in the US, so yes, if a product isn't selling well to a demographic you don't sell it. Are there a lot of Ford F350s in Europe?
Sure, Dreadball seems to be gaining popularity, but at this point it can't be even remotely close. As I recall, last years Eurobowl had something like 120 participants.
Obvious fact? I think obvious has different meanings to you and I.
Yes. For most people, obvious facts are obvious.
And I only browsed your linked website....but I don't think it really speaks as strongly as you think it does. The largest tournament that I saw had 28 participants. There were multiple with around 10. Hardly earth shattering.
...as opposed to apparently earth shattering popularity of Dreadball?
Well, they don't even sell many iterations of the "hilux" in the US, so yes, if a product isn't selling well to a demographic you don't sell it. Are there a lot of Ford F350s in Europe?
I'm not sure what you're trying to prove there. Are miniature wargames markets radically different between US and Europe?
I'm going to be very interested to see what happens if/when GW releases Blood Bowl as a "summer surprise" (as they did with Space Hulk). Will it be able to compete with Dreadball? I've disparaged Dreadball as a Blood Bowl knockoff in the past, but it will be interesting to see what the community as a whole thinks about the two different products.
Of course, it's also possible that GW has just given up on Blood Bowl, which would be silly and kinda sad, but GW has done a lot of things that are silly and kinda sad in the past!
1- what precisely makes it obvious that Blood Bowl is a top-10 most popular game? What substantiates that?
2- as to Dreadballs popularity: we know, as fact, that at least 2600 people bought into dreadball in the last 12 months. We know as fact that dreadball has sold at least $700k in product the last 12 months. We know none of that about blood bowl, and I don't think anyone would attempt to make the claim that blood bowl has made anything near that lately.
3- yes, both WHFB and LoTR sell much more robustly in the UK than in the US. Additionally, there are a large number of American civil war wargames in the US. I'd wager there are not many in Europe.
Honestly, I'm really less surprised that these are going than I was when I heard about the specialist games. I can't imagine that many people buy the collectors models any more. Most of those models are also very, very dated. Guess I will have to pick up Solar Macharius, The Chase, and the Sartosan Vampire, though.
Kingsley wrote: I'm going to be very interested to see what happens if/when GW releases Blood Bowl as a "summer surprise" (as they did with Space Hulk). Will it be able to compete with Dreadball? I've disparaged Dreadball as a Blood Bowl knockoff in the past, but it will be interesting to see what the community as a whole thinks about the two different products.
Of course, it's also possible that GW has just given up on Blood Bowl, which would be silly and kinda sad, but GW has done a lot of things that are silly and kinda sad in the past!
I'm not sure how they would do a Blood Bowl summer release and have it really take off. It would probably only have two teams, and I can't see that really inspiring people to leave the Blood Bowl that's already floating around. Of course, if the miniatures are wonderful I can potentially see people picking up the box set just for that. Blood Bowl stuff (and the alternate fantasy football minis) definitely show their age; some modern sculpts could make people buy the box. (I'm sure some people love the old-style miniatures and think it's part of the fun of the game, and more power to 'em. )
Sadly, I think that all of the Specialist Games are going to have that same problem. Replacing any of them with a two-team board game is going to take away a LOT of what makes them (well, made them) good now.
It's not about the overhead, re-posting what i said before:
Its about how the company looks to prospective buyers aaand:
/snipet
If they had kept bunkers they could support the Core 3 + specialist, but from a business perspective, there's no way one man stores can grow the specialist line or even keep it stable. They are not hiring these people to be resource experts, they are hiring frontline people who they consider to have "limited shelf space" on what they can reasonably learn/sell/achieve in a year. That one person who if they kept specialist would need to know 9+ rule-sets and promote/support them. For GW, its a business decision, and its a simple one. ("But this is a good thing!")
/end.snippet
This stuff going by the wayside is a result of the policy changes made over a year ago. It's just taken this long to hit specialist games section. Things are starting to run low and the decision about metal means they aren't going to put it back into production.
What do you think is going to happen to the citadel battle-mats when they run out?
Kingsley wrote: I'm going to be very interested to see what happens if/when GW releases Blood Bowl as a "summer surprise" (as they did with Space Hulk). Will it be able to compete with Dreadball? I've disparaged Dreadball as a Blood Bowl knockoff in the past, but it will be interesting to see what the community as a whole thinks about the two different products.
You are aware that Dreadball was started BECAUSE Bloodbowl was in the works for more than a year, right? Hastings revealed the Bloodbowl box content a year before Dreadbowl was even a concept.
1- what precisely makes it obvious that Blood Bowl is a top-10 most popular game? What substantiates that?
2- as to Dreadballs popularity: we know, as fact, that at least 2600 people bought into dreadball in the last 12 months. We know as fact that dreadball has sold at least $700k in product the last 12 months. We know none of that about blood bowl, and I don't think anyone would attempt to make the claim that blood bowl has made anything near that lately.
3- yes, both WHFB and LoTR sell much more robustly in the UK than in the US. Additionally, there are a large number of American civil war wargames in the US. I'd wager there are not many in Europe.
1 - because it's really hard to think up ten games which are more popular. 40k, WHFB, Warmahordes, Flames of War, sure, but after that I can't think of anything which is certainly more popular. Battletech maybe? Some other historicals?
2 - yes, that's the initial buying craze. I'm pretty sure even The Hobbit has made more than $700k in sales. Is it sustainable? Doubtful. And we also know for a fact that organized play of Dreadball is tiny fraction of Blood Bowl. Besides, I'm pretty sure many of the Dreadball players bought the minis to play Blood Bowl, because GW hasn't updated BB line for years. Of course sales sag when you don't update the line. How much you think Dreadball will sell in 5 years time if Mantic does nothing to promote or update it?
3 - so maybe GW should have different catalogue for US and European markets...?
I believe Cypher was moved to the actual Chaos range. Sucks about Steel Legion and Tallarns though. However this could mean multi part plastic kits for these regiments come the IG update the will inevitably arrive this year or next.
Kingsley wrote: I'm going to be very interested to see what happens if/when GW releases Blood Bowl as a "summer surprise" (as they did with Space Hulk). Will it be able to compete with Dreadball? I've disparaged Dreadball as a Blood Bowl knockoff in the past, but it will be interesting to see what the community as a whole thinks about the two different products.
You are aware that Dreadball was started BECAUSE Bloodbowl was in the works for more than a year, right? Hastings revealed the Bloodbowl box content a year before Dreadbowl was even a concept.
I also thinking that the timing of the Deadzone Kickstarter, which has come along as Necromunda is being pulled from sale, must surely be more than a coincidence..
(PS - Both Dreadball and BB are very different games, and both fun in their own way! You can play both for far less than the cost of 40k/WFB, indulge yourself )
Pacific wrote: I also thinking that the timing of the Deadzone Kickstarter, which has come along as Necromunda is being pulled from sale, must surely be more than a coincidence.
That would require Mantic to know ahead of time that GW was about to pull its specialist product lines. Now I'm sure Jake still has some friends over at GWHQ, but prior knowledge just seems like a stretch to me.
Pacific wrote: I also thinking that the timing of the Deadzone Kickstarter, which has come along as Necromunda is being pulled from sale, must surely be more than a coincidence.
That would require Mantic to know ahead of time that GW was about to pull its specialist product lines. Now I'm sure Jake still has some friends over at GWHQ, but prior knowledge just seems like a stretch to me.
It might be less prior knowledge, and more educated guessing. Just from someone who has better information than the rest of us - he might have heard one or two hints from old mates that, combined with the stuff that everyone knew, changed the fall of SG's in his mind from "going to happen sometime" to "imminent, better get started on that skirmish game".
I for one, like the classic imperial guard range very much, as I feel most of the figure
have a better balance anatomically speaking than most of the newer plastic component,
where big or tiny heads are a common sight. I still think the Perry twins and other sculptors
did a great job on this older range, even if the mortar shell is funnier than ever: way too big!
Well the Necromunda range will be missed for me as well, may be it is the time to grab some more
figures before they are gone...
Pacific wrote: I also thinking that the timing of the Deadzone Kickstarter, which has come along as Necromunda is being pulled from sale, must surely be more than a coincidence.
That would require Mantic to know ahead of time that GW was about to pull its specialist product lines. Now I'm sure Jake still has some friends over at GWHQ, but prior knowledge just seems like a stretch to me.
There is a small group of developers and games creators centred around Nottingham, and I'm sure a lot of those guys must still speak to each other (still be mates?) even after they have left, work for different companies or whatever.
Thinking about it now, you're right in that GW seem to have an almost hilarious level of self-importance with regards to keeping things secret - so the developers might not say they are going to release a particular model, or something that specific. But, something like the Specialist game range being cut (which has been on death-row for many years) could probably be worked out pretty easily - especially considering the rumour that the range was being kept afloat entirely on the back of Jervis Johnson previously. Both Jake Thornton and no doubt Ronnie Renton would know Jervis well and would probably know if something was planned, I don't think it is too far out of the realm of possibility.
Of course it may just be entirely coincidental - I think in any case Mantic have been very prudent once more in realising the gap left in the wargaming industry by Necromunda, how popular that game still is, and how that game is likely to appeal to both some fans of the original, and younger/newer wargamers who think that the only way to play is with $2-300 upfront and a significant investment of time and energy with one of GW's core games.
laaaaaame, i wanted steel legion! don't know why they make plastic catachans and not steel legion. catachans, while cool, are hilariously mis-scaled and steel legion could at least be used for krieg death corp with the addition of epic coatage. whenever i see catachans i just think of that bit in predator where dylan and dutch grip hands and have bicep flexes the size of small planets. if gw are going to s**t-can every metal guard regiment they need to fix up the plastic kit so it can make more types. maybe if they had one that did steel legion, valhalla, dcok, and mordians and one that did cadians, catachans (and their gigantic he man arms), and tallarns or something? but not subsequently make them $100 a box
Pacific wrote: I also thinking that the timing of the Deadzone Kickstarter, which has come along as Necromunda is being pulled from sale, must surely be more than a coincidence.
That would require Mantic to know ahead of time that GW was about to pull its specialist product lines. Now I'm sure Jake still has some friends over at GWHQ, but prior knowledge just seems like a stretch to me.
It might be less prior knowledge, and more educated guessing. Just from someone who has better information than the rest of us - he might have heard one or two hints from old mates that, combined with the stuff that everyone knew, changed the fall of SG's in his mind from "going to happen sometime" to "imminent, better get started on that skirmish game".
Yeah, I'd say it might have something to do with GW not supporting any of the specialists games for nigh on what, a decade now? It's not like anyone would want to refrain from releasing a sci-fi skirmish game because of the Necromunda juggernaut ... You can't swing a dead cat without hitting 2-3 new sci-fi skirmish games nowadays.
It's a shame, but with those butt-ugly special weapons I'd never consider metal guard anyway. Though I'd always been planning on getting a few boxes of Mordians.
I assume/hope this means we'll be getting new plastic guard sets, as otherwise the new codex is going to make the Imperial Guard look very boring.
I actually quite like the design of the old ones, but in general I prefer the old style miniatures (especially those 3rd edition elves and Chaos Warriors . . . mm-mm)
Cadians had no Grenade Launcher.
Mordians had no Plasma Gun.
Valhallans had no Plasma Gun.
Tallarns had no Flamer.
Technically the Catachans did get a Grenade Launcher eventually (the female Catachan), and the Steel Legion (who arrived much later, during 3rd Ed), did get all four.
1 - because it's really hard to think up ten games which are more popular. 40k, WHFB, Warmahordes, Flames of War, sure, but after that I can't think of anything which is certainly more popular. Battletech maybe? Some other historicals?
Wow... you really need to branch out a bit more. How about Malifaux or Infinity. Mercs. Dropzone Commander. Firestorm Armada, Dystopian Wars, Uncharted Seas. Dust Warfare. Kings of War. Anima Tactics. Hail Caesar, Blackpowder? I'm not going to get in to any of the other historical rule sets, or rules without minis/minis without rules.
There are tons of games which are good, have active support, and have far more players than Blood Bowl. There are only a tiny amount of people still playing Blood Bowl.
I still play BFG, and I've hosted a 20 player BFG tournament... but I am under no illusions that it is anywhere near a top 10 game.
Cadians had no Grenade Launcher. Mordians had no Plasma Gun. Valhallans had no Plasma Gun. Tallarns had no Flamer.
Technically the Catachans did get a Grenade Launcher eventually (the female Catachan), and the Steel Legion (who arrived much later, during 3rd Ed), did get all four.
Yes, that was the way old second edition squads were brought to the players, and this was not problematic back then. A standard army consisted of about half nowadays model count, and players were encouraged to mix their regiments, like in about every WD issue where IG was pictured. Oh, and I recall there were some heavy weapons lacking too, by the time of the release (1994-1995). But this lack got filled at some point in late 2nd edition. For example, Valhallans had their autocannons and missile launcher only in 1998, while the other heavy weapons were in from the start. Yes, even the lascannon, which is long OOP now.
However about Steel Legion, which were 3rd edition, I have seen no other special weapons than plasma gun and grenade launcher. Were there any other models in bonus to the current range (GL / PG / ML / LC / HB) at some point in the past ?
gorgon wrote:Even though they came a decade or more later, Vostroyans have no meltagun.
Why? I dunno. Either intent is at work, or it's just one of the great unsolvable mysteries of the universe.
There was a limited figurine count to every range, I guess they solved things this way, and still allowing players to field sufficiently diverse normal guardsmen. Actually in Vostoyan range, you have 3 special weapons guardsmen, 3 heavy weapons teams (2 different gunners each) and 6 different and characterful normal dudes. I think it's about right, while most IG generals would have preferred to see the iconic and mandatory autocannon in place of heavy bolter.
By the way, the meltagun is probably the easiest special weapon you can convert : cut the end tip of the flamer dude, drill a small hole, put a tube, some putty (or directly a part from bitz box), and voilà. It will really look like a genuine meltagunner.
japehlio wrote:Thats a question, are Vostroyans being done away with? They are specialist metal guard, but not in the collectors section..?
I don't think so, they are recent, very detailed, and as you point out not in collectors section. Most of all, they are W40k specific. All other IG regiments which were moved to collectors were directly connected to a historic army of 20th century. They do not want any of these obvious links anymore. Vostroyan are really bizarre beings, typical of the uchronic nonsense of 41st millennium : some part napoleonian, some part cossack, a part of WW1 with gas masks, medieval chainmail, futuristic touch and weapons, plus they have SKULLZ.
Pretty sure they will keep them, expect them to be transferred to finecast any time soon.
you 
