It's sedated sure, but hijacking C'tan tech has never really been a good idea in the fluff.
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BlackSanguinor wrote: Thanks Beaviz81, now I have the picture of some great big C'tan (probably looks like a big metallic dragon) high on LSD or something
In ''Mechanicus" novel it was made clear that mechanicus is completely unaware of his existance. Mag'ladroth is protected by few chosen ones who are called as ''Guardians of dragon". It's said that Emperor himself did imprisoned him there.
As for me, I don't buy that legend. Where is a lot more to a dragon than that and in which Emperor has no part in it. Even more, these so-called guardians might be self-delusioned bunch of psykers doing nothing, but sitting on their finding. They have no influence on him, nor they could protect anyone. I would be surprised if the Void dragon is at all aware of these lackies.
Ernestas wrote: In ''Mechanicus" novel it was made clear that mechanicus is completely unaware of his existance. Mag'ladroth is protected by few chosen ones who are called as ''Guardians of dragon". It's said that Emperor himself did imprisoned him there.
As for me, I don't buy that legend. Where is a lot more to a dragon than that and in which Emperor has no part in it. Even more, these so-called guardians might be self-delusioned bunch of psykers doing nothing, but sitting on their finding. They have no influence on him, nor they could protect anyone. I would be surprised if the Void dragon is at all aware of these lackies.
Ernestas wrote: In ''Mechanicus" novel it was made clear that mechanicus is completely unaware of his existance. Mag'ladroth is protected by few chosen ones who are called as ''Guardians of dragon". It's said that Emperor himself did imprisoned him there.
As for me, I don't buy that legend. Where is a lot more to a dragon than that and in which Emperor has no part in it. Even more, these so-called guardians might be self-delusioned bunch of psykers doing nothing, but sitting on their finding. They have no influence on him, nor they could protect anyone. I would be surprised if the Void dragon is at all aware of these lackies.
Just for the sake of discussion, say it wakes up during the current timeline?
This has been hinted at for a long time. St. George and the dragon is supposed to be the Emperor and the Dragon (with a capital 'D').
It's long been rumoured that the Dragon is also actually the Machine God.
First thing that might happen is old Schism of Mars will finally be settled down and Adeptus Mechanicus will be in civil war with itself once again which will quickly be escalated into full-blown wars with Imperium. That is one scenario in which Adeptus Mechanicus publicly recognizes Void dragon as theirs Omnissiah. Of course, that would mean only a denouncement of the Emperor. Even more, I doubt that all of Mechanicus will accept him as their god, so civil war will wage once again, with quick escalation in which Imperium sides with loyalist part of mechanicus.
It would be interesting to see such powerful organisation led by C'tan. Even more, he might recognise his followers dedication and commitment in becoming machines and could decide that humanity offers him a lot more than anyone else. Mechanicus might grow immensely, adopting many if not all of Mag'ladroth technologies. In the end they could be advanced to a necrons levels, making them the most powerful force in a galaxy.
Second scenario might involve mechanicus denouncing him and forcing him to flee from mars. That will make a dragon a rogue god. He is a material being, so he would be very limited in many areas compared to warp gods. I believe that he will try to get his revenge on necrons using rogue parts of mechanicus as his main battle force and worshipers.
I do not see how Mag'ladroth future could not involve humans. Now adeptus mechanicus are just a perfect race for him. In it lies most of his potential power and it would be a waste not to try claim a godhood to them.
So what happens if the Emperor dies as the golden throne is failing and as the Eldar predict, the largest warp storm yet appears smack dab in the Sol system?
You guys know this is covered in one of the Horus Heresy books... Mechanicum The whole cult of the dragon and the person that took over guarding the dragon?
Also goes over the Dark sorted history of how a large part of the Mechanicus turned to the warp and how much knowledge was lost on mars due to the Horus Heresy
The Void Dragon grants mastery of machines, but at a price. Those who discover the truth about the AdMech's origins either fully worship the void dragon or go nuts and start ripping out their implants from their bodies, which given that most techpriests are over half machine, is usually fatal.
The Necrons in general seem to cause all sorts of weird effects in the minds of techpriests. A shard of the most powerful C'tan ever, a shard that fought the Emperor on pretty even terms no less, being the center-point of the AdMech is the likely cause of at least half of it's weirdness.
Far lesser C'tan shards can already play with reality like silly putty, but a peer of the Emperor? It's release would mean nothing but bad news. However, new fluff regarding the C'tan raises the possibility that the Emperor struck a deal with the Void Dragon to keep it away from the Necrons in exchange for it's help with mankind's technology.
You guys know this is covered in one of the Horus Heresy books... Mechanicum The whole cult of the dragon and the person that took over guarding the dragon?
Also goes over the Dark sorted history of how a large part of the Mechanicus turned to the warp and how much knowledge was lost on mars due to the Horus Heresy
Yep. It was mentioned in the first post and several others besides the first post ...
However, new fluff regarding the C'tan raises the possibility that the Emperor struck a deal with the Void Dragon to keep it away from the Necrons in exchange for it's help with mankind's technology.
In the old fluff (3rd ed codex) it was hinted that the Void Dragon may somehow also be related to the Golden Throne. Are they still suggesting that (I have the new Necron codex but haven't looked through it in ages)? I always thought that was an interesting take on it.
Kain wrote: Far lesser C'tan shards can already play with reality like silly putty, but a peer of the Emperor? It's release would mean nothing but bad news. However, new fluff regarding the C'tan raises the possibility that the Emperor struck a deal with the Void Dragon to keep it away from the Necrons in exchange for it's help with mankind's technology.
I highly doubt a C'tan would be willing to reason with the likes of the Emperor. The C'tan abhor Psykers and the Warp. Anyways, the Dragon probably didn't do battle with the Emperor until long, long after the Necrons' culling of the C'tan. I would say that if the Dragon hadn't been destroyed like the rest of its kin, it more than likely had already found a way to escape the Necrons by itself. If anything, it's more likely the Emperor imprisoned the Dragon against its will and the Mechanicus have just been using and abusing its power for thousands of years.
That, or the fluff from Mechanicum was semi-retconned with the advent of the new Necron Codex.
It's not the entire C'Tan, just a shard of it, and got its butt pretty thoroughly kicked by the Emperor and then buried on Mars. They're nasty, sure, but not exactly god-like, being all wrapped up in their pokeballs.
Psienesis wrote: It's not the entire C'Tan, just a shard of it, and got its butt pretty thoroughly kicked by the Emperor and then buried on Mars. They're nasty, sure, but not exactly god-like, being all wrapped up in their pokeballs.
The C'Tan likely was about as mighty as the Primarches.
The C'tan was beating the living gak out of their daddy. The same guy who spent months fighting the amassed forces of Chaos in the breached Webway Gate, alone and unaided.
"About as mighty as the Primarchs" lol.
This would make it vastly more powerful than the mightiest Greater Daemons. By several orders of magnitude.
Also, Psienesis, frankly calling it "just a shard" is a bit disingenuous. The retcon to Necron fluff was not in place then. Though the retcon did in fact make the C'tan seem even more powerful. A starving, mere shard of the Void Dragon fought on equal terms with the Emperor.
Void__Dragon wrote: The C'tan was beating the living gak out of their daddy. The same guy who spent months fighting the amassed forces of Chaos in the breached Webway Gate, alone and unaided.
"About as mighty as the Primarchs" lol.
This would make it vastly more powerful than the mightiest Greater Daemons. By several orders of magnitude.
Also, Psienesis, frankly calling it "just a shard" is a bit disingenuous. The retcon to Necron fluff was not in place then. Though the retcon did in fact make the C'tan seem even more powerful. A starving, mere shard of the Void Dragon fought on equal terms with the Emperor.
Still daddy managed to get it and smacked the Void Dragon so hard it haven't managed to repair itself in 10k. years. That's about as long as Abaddon has launched failed black crusades in futile attempts to get the IOM to yield the right of way.
Void__Dragon wrote: The C'tan was beating the living gak out of their daddy. The same guy who spent months fighting the amassed forces of Chaos in the breached Webway Gate, alone and unaided.
"About as mighty as the Primarchs" lol.
This would make it vastly more powerful than the mightiest Greater Daemons. By several orders of magnitude.
Also, Psienesis, frankly calling it "just a shard" is a bit disingenuous. The retcon to Necron fluff was not in place then. Though the retcon did in fact make the C'tan seem even more powerful. A starving, mere shard of the Void Dragon fought on equal terms with the Emperor.
Still daddy managed to get it and smacked the Void Dragon so hard it haven't managed to repair itself in 10k. years. That's about as long as Abaddon has launched failed black crusades in futile attempts to get the IOM to yield the right of way.
The AdMech is essentially free food and cultist nutjobs to inflate your ego with genuine worship, the Void Dragon shard has a pretty nice gig on mars. Also, before the Emperor was so much as a sperm in his daddy's sac, the Void Dragon canonically took multiple black stone fortresses firing at him (which fire psychic blasts that can shatter planets) for an extended period of time and only felt a little sleepy, then he fought with the Eldar god Vaul who was backed up by an entire army. THEN the Necrons sharded him after the Old ones rolled over and died.
It speaks ill of the Emperor (or well of the C'tan) if the Emperor only managed to beat a fragment of the Void dragon by the skin of his teeth who had already taken being blasted with his own weakness in copious amounts and fought a god damn Eldar God during the absolute peak of their strength and was then broken into tiny pieces.
A full power Void Dragon would notice the Emperor in the same way you would notice a beetle crushed under your boot.
No way, Empy is the mightiest being ever made flesh, and him bitchslapping the Void Dragon into a coma lasting 13k. years. Nevermind the Chaos gods had to corrupt a living god in order just to stand up to him and let him be filled with all their juices just to when Empy saw how far he had gone just smashed through the defenses and murdered his son in hot blood.
Beaviz81 wrote: No way, Empy is the mightiest being ever made flesh, and him bitchslapping the Void Dragon into a coma lasting 13k. years. Nevermind the Chaos gods had to corrupt a living god in order just to stand up to him and let him be filled with all their juices just to when Empy saw how far he had gone just smashed through the defenses and murdered his son in hot blood.
Beaviz81 wrote: No way, Empy is the mightiest being ever made flesh, and him bitchslapping the Void Dragon into a coma lasting 13k. years. Nevermind the Chaos gods had to corrupt a living god in order just to stand up to him and let him be filled with all their juices just to when Empy saw how far he had gone just smashed through the defenses and murdered his son in hot blood.
A C'Tan Shard was beating the living gak out of the Emperor. A C'Tan shard can send you back in time to the big bang and shoot antimatter out of its fingertips. A full C'Tan can make stars go supernova just by thinking about it. The Emperor used a deus ex machinae to barely beat a starved C'Tan Shard, and then realized he doesn't even have the power to kill it.
The C'Tan are the masters of the Materium. Nothing even comes close to rivaling them, sorry :(
Edit: Concerning the OP's question, if he woke up, he'd need to try to find all the other Void Dragon shards. If he found them, and somehow managed to amass an army large enough to fight the necrons currently holding said shards, and became a full C'Tan again, it would essentially be the end of the Galaxy as we know it.
Beaviz81 wrote: No way, Empy is the mightiest being ever made flesh, and him bitchslapping the Void Dragon into a coma lasting 13k. years. Nevermind the Chaos gods had to corrupt a living god in order just to stand up to him and let him be filled with all their juices just to when Empy saw how far he had gone just smashed through the defenses and murdered his son in hot blood.
A C'Tan Shard was beating the living gak out of the Emperor. A C'Tan shard can send you back in time to the big bang and shoot antimatter out of its fingertips. A full C'Tan can make stars go supernova just by thinking about it. The Emperor used a deus ex machinae to barely beat a starved C'Tan Shard, and then realized he doesn't even have the power to kill it.
The C'Tan are the masters of the Materium. Nothing even comes close to rivaling them, sorry :(
Edit: Concerning the OP's question, if he woke up, he'd need to try to find all the other Void Dragon shards. If he found them, and somehow managed to amass an army large enough to fight the necrons currently holding said shards, and became a full C'Tan again, it would essentially be the end of the Galaxy as we know it.
Was about to post this, but you covered it pretty well.
A fully powered C'tan would wipe the emperor away, like you wipe a spec of dust away.
I personally don't think you can quite compare the Emperor to a C'tan shard. It seems when the book was written - many years before the new Codex - that it was intended to show the Emperor as capable of overpowering a weakened/starving C'tan, rather than a generic shard, as shards weren't around in those days.
IMHO it would however seem reasonable to think that the Void Dragon would otherwise whump the Emperor if it wasn't starving etc.
Darth Bob wrote:
Kain wrote: Far lesser C'tan shards can already play with reality like silly putty, but a peer of the Emperor? It's release would mean nothing but bad news. However, new fluff regarding the C'tan raises the possibility that the Emperor struck a deal with the Void Dragon to keep it away from the Necrons in exchange for it's help with mankind's technology.
I highly doubt a C'tan would be willing to reason with the likes of the Emperor. The C'tan abhor Psykers and the Warp. Anyways, the Dragon probably didn't do battle with the Emperor until long, long after the Necrons' culling of the C'tan. I would say that if the Dragon hadn't been destroyed like the rest of its kin, it more than likely had already found a way to escape the Necrons by itself. If anything, it's more likely the Emperor imprisoned the Dragon against its will and the Mechanicus have just been using and abusing its power for thousands of years.
That, or the fluff from Mechanicum was semi-retconned with the advent of the new Necron Codex.
That's the case as far as I can tell: The Emperor didn't make a pact with the Void Dragon, but rather imprisoned it. Since then, it has - unbeknownst to the Mechanicum - been 'fuelling' their innovation and is in fact arguably the omnissiah.
An interesting question might be, with their belief and worship of the omnissiah, could the Mechanicum be inadvertently strengthening the Void Dragon?
Just Dave wrote: Well there appears to be power in believing - or to a greater extent worshipping - in 40k, which MAY extend over to the Void Dragon?
But doesn't that generally only apply to Warp-Sensitive beings? I would think things like emotion, and what not wouldn't have any kind of effect on a C'tan.
Just Dave wrote: Well there appears to be power in believing - or to a greater extent worshipping - in 40k, which MAY extend over to the Void Dragon?
But doesn't that generally only apply to Warp-Sensitive beings? I would think things like emotion, and what not wouldn't have any kind of effect on a C'tan.
I'm sure that even a rock can attain godhood if enough people believe it's a deity.
Just Dave wrote: Well there appears to be power in believing - or to a greater extent worshipping - in 40k, which MAY extend over to the Void Dragon?
But doesn't that generally only apply to Warp-Sensitive beings? I would think things like emotion, and what not wouldn't have any kind of effect on a C'tan.
I'm sure that even a rock can attain godhood if enough people believe it's a deity.
With all the talk of the Emperor beating a C'Tan shard, I need to ask; Are all C'Tan shards equal? Could there not be larger/smaller, more/less powerful shards containing a greater/lesser essence of an individual C'Tan?
If this is the case, then the entire argument changes.
Just Dave wrote: Well there appears to be power in believing - or to a greater extent worshipping - in 40k, which MAY extend over to the Void Dragon?
But doesn't that generally only apply to Warp-Sensitive beings? I would think things like emotion, and what not wouldn't have any kind of effect on a C'tan.
That's what I suspected, but it was an interesting idea...
Sir Samuel Buca wrote: With all the talk of the Emperor beating a C'Tan shard, I need to ask; Are all C'Tan shards equal? Could there not be larger/smaller, more/less powerful shards containing a greater/lesser essence of an individual C'Tan? If this is the case, then the entire argument changes.
I think it's more than just probable that the C'Tan vary greatly in power level, and their power levels themselves are directly connected to how much they've consumed recently (in a very Galactus-esque way).
They're still the masters of the Materium to me though, I mean simply through how powerful their -shards- are now, and blanket statements from the Codex that talk about their power levels, it's quite obvious they have no equal:
Spoiler:
"Glutted on the life force of the Necrontyr, the empowered C'Tan were nigh unstoppable and unleashed forces beyond comprehension. Planets were razed, suns extinguished, and whole systems devoured by black holes called into being by the reality warping powers of the star gods."
"The Necrons focused the unimaginable energies of the living universe into weapons too mighty for even the C'Tan to endure. Alas the C'Tan were immortal star spawn, part of the fundamental fabric of actuality, and therefore nigh impossible to destroy"
"Even in their reduced and wholly fettered state, C'Tan Shards ar ebeings of near-unlimited power. They can manifest energy blasts, control the minds of lesser beings, manipulate the flow of time, and banish foes to alternate realities. Indeed, a C'Tan SHard's abilities are limited only by two things: its imagination - which is immense - and glimmering memories of the being from which it was severed.
"C'Tan Shards are beings of reality-warping power."
These are blanket statements about all C'Tan, I'm thinking even with differing power levels, I doubt anything in the material universe could rival the weakest fully empowered C'Tan.
Sir Samuel Buca wrote: With all the talk of the Emperor beating a C'Tan shard, I need to ask; Are all C'Tan shards equal? Could there not be larger/smaller, more/less powerful shards containing a greater/lesser essence of an individual C'Tan?
If this is the case, then the entire argument changes.
That still doesn't change the fact that the Emperor had to use a deus ex machina to beat a simple fragment of the Void Dragon, so the whole thing would work him over. And I'd say no C'tan is more than perhaps a twelfth complete, save for maybe the Outsider who may or may not still be intact. But of course the Outsider is irrelevant until he's off his vacation to the nuthouse.
Sir Samuel Buca wrote: With all the talk of the Emperor beating a C'Tan shard, I need to ask; Are all C'Tan shards equal? Could there not be larger/smaller, more/less powerful shards containing a greater/lesser essence of an individual C'Tan?
If this is the case, then the entire argument changes.
That still doesn't change the fact that the Emperor had to use a deus ex machina to beat a simple fragment of the Void Dragon, so the whole thing would work him over. And I'd say no C'tan is more than perhaps a twelfth complete, save for maybe the Outsider who may or may not still be intact. But of course the Outsider is irrelevant until he's off his vacation to the nuthouse.
They were all shattered into millions of Shards, save the Flayer who was completely destroyed.
I'm sure no shard is equal to one another, and it may have been a powerful Shard, but it is still just a Fragment of the C'tan.
Sir Samuel Buca wrote: With all the talk of the Emperor beating a C'Tan shard, I need to ask; Are all C'Tan shards equal? Could there not be larger/smaller, more/less powerful shards containing a greater/lesser essence of an individual C'Tan?
If this is the case, then the entire argument changes.
Even so the C'Tan got shattered by their supposed servants. Do you think Empy could have suffered that? Humans dethroning him. That speaks to them as not too good, I mean godlike creatures shouldn't be able to be hurt by anything less than themselves.
Sir Samuel Buca wrote: With all the talk of the Emperor beating a C'Tan shard, I need to ask; Are all C'Tan shards equal? Could there not be larger/smaller, more/less powerful shards containing a greater/lesser essence of an individual C'Tan?
If this is the case, then the entire argument changes.
Even so the C'Tan got shattered by their supposed servants. Do you think Empy could have suffered that? Humans dethroning him. That speaks to them as not too good, I mean godlike creatures shouldn't be able to be hurt by anything less than themselves.
Well the C'Tan had just finished wiping out the Old Ones, you know, the ones that were essentially gods, they were weakened. It took the Necron technology (that is so far beyond anything the IoM can ever even dream up, it's not even funny) to use "the unimaginable energies of the living universe into weapons too mighty for even the C'Tan to endure. Alas the C'Tan were immortal star spawn, part of the fundamental fabric of actuality, and therefore nigh impossible to destroy"
So yeah. The Emp. would've most likely been dead 50 times over.
Sir Samuel Buca wrote: With all the talk of the Emperor beating a C'Tan shard, I need to ask; Are all C'Tan shards equal? Could there not be larger/smaller, more/less powerful shards containing a greater/lesser essence of an individual C'Tan?
If this is the case, then the entire argument changes.
Even so the C'Tan got shattered by their supposed servants. Do you think Empy could have suffered that? Humans dethroning him. That speaks to them as not too good, I mean godlike creatures shouldn't be able to be hurt by anything less than themselves.
Putting the way you are, is being a bit disingenuous. The C'tan were shattered by the most technologically advanced race the galaxy has ever seen, That were in immortal bodies and fighting in unison. This is was also after they were weakned wiping out the Old ones, which could be considered demi-gods in their own way. It Took millions of Necrons to accomplish this.
Seriously though, the C'tan were quoted has causing entire Systems to be consumed by black holes, that they summoned on a whim. The Emperor has got nothing on fully powered C'tan.
Sir Samuel Buca wrote: With all the talk of the Emperor beating a C'Tan shard, I need to ask; Are all C'Tan shards equal? Could there not be larger/smaller, more/less powerful shards containing a greater/lesser essence of an individual C'Tan?
If this is the case, then the entire argument changes.
Even so the C'Tan got shattered by their supposed servants. Do you think Empy could have suffered that? Humans dethroning him. That speaks to them as not too good, I mean godlike creatures shouldn't be able to be hurt by anything less than themselves.
Well the C'Tan had just finished wiping out the Old Ones, you know, the ones that were essentially gods, they were weakened. It took the Necron technology (that is so far beyond anything the IoM can ever even dream up, it's not even funny) to use "the unimaginable energies of the living universe into weapons too mighty for even the C'Tan to endure. Alas the C'Tan were immortal star spawn, part of the fundamental fabric of actuality, and therefore nigh impossible to destroy"
So yeah. The Emp. would've most likely been dead 50 times over.
Sir Samuel Buca wrote: With all the talk of the Emperor beating a C'Tan shard, I need to ask; Are all C'Tan shards equal? Could there not be larger/smaller, more/less powerful shards containing a greater/lesser essence of an individual C'Tan?
If this is the case, then the entire argument changes.
Even so the C'Tan got shattered by their supposed servants. Do you think Empy could have suffered that? Humans dethroning him. That speaks to them as not too good, I mean godlike creatures shouldn't be able to be hurt by anything less than themselves.
Well the C'Tan had just finished wiping out the Old Ones, you know, the ones that were essentially gods, they were weakened. It took the Necron technology (that is so far beyond anything the IoM can ever even dream up, it's not even funny) to use "the unimaginable energies of the living universe into weapons too mighty for even the C'Tan to endure. Alas the C'Tan were immortal star spawn, part of the fundamental fabric of actuality, and therefore nigh impossible to destroy"
So yeah. The Emp. would've most likely been dead 50 times over.
Of laughing as they whiffed their attacks.
It's pretty clear that you are just trolling this thread, and adding nothing constructive Please come back when you actually have something to substantiate your ludicrous position.
Sir Samuel Buca wrote: With all the talk of the Emperor beating a C'Tan shard, I need to ask; Are all C'Tan shards equal? Could there not be larger/smaller, more/less powerful shards containing a greater/lesser essence of an individual C'Tan?
If this is the case, then the entire argument changes.
Even so the C'Tan got shattered by their supposed servants. Do you think Empy could have suffered that? Humans dethroning him. That speaks to them as not too good, I mean godlike creatures shouldn't be able to be hurt by anything less than themselves.
Well the C'Tan had just finished wiping out the Old Ones, you know, the ones that were essentially gods, they were weakened. It took the Necron technology (that is so far beyond anything the IoM can ever even dream up, it's not even funny) to use "the unimaginable energies of the living universe into weapons too mighty for even the C'Tan to endure. Alas the C'Tan were immortal star spawn, part of the fundamental fabric of actuality, and therefore nigh impossible to destroy"
So yeah. The Emp. would've most likely been dead 50 times over.
Sounds like Beavis is just trying to fanboy his way out of this one. I think it's pretty explicit that the Emperor, mighty though he is, is completely outmatched by the capabilities of a C'tan who are on a completely different level of power. Being able to manipulate the fundamental forces of the material plane without the drawbacks of using the warp and on a whim. I mean when even complete dismemberment via shards wasn't enough to kill most of them I think it demonstrates how "mortal" the Emperor really is in comparison because I highly doubt even Empy here could survive having every portion of his body torn asunder and being scattered throughout the galaxy. If it was otherwise why would the physical punishment he took from Horus make such an impact on his well-being? (i.e. him suffering from his arm being torn off, his eye plucked out and his spine being broke)
To state otherwise is to ignore the clear evidence that the C'tan, even potentially as shards, stronger than the Emperor at his peak.
Sorry to break the party dudes but there is an immense necron tomb under Mars (according to the old codex) which could mean that the dragon isn't really sedated, it is just waiting for the right moment. But, the necron's greatest aim is to become mortal. I think the Void Dragon is kept sedated by the necrons who are working with the techpriests in secret. I also believe that the C'tan are possible powerful Chaos Demons or gods.
You were right with the differing power levels, and it really comes into play here. The Nightbringer was beaten by Khaine (though he did put up an awesome fight afaik), but the Void Dragon quite nearly -killed- not beat the Emperor, which in turn is way beyond Khaine in power terms given his ability to scare the gak out of the Chaos Gods which are >>> Khaine.
Also, you can't quite say that they have an added sensitivity to the Warp. It's kind of like this as far as I gather. Material attacks are a joke to them. Shoot a laser at a C'Tan, and he can turn it into flowers before it reaches him. Shoot rockets, he can turn them into puppies. They're masters of reality manipulation, therefore conventional attacks are completely useless against them. Meanwhile, they CAN'T control the Warp at all. So they're "vulnerable" to them in that they don't have any specific defenses against warp energies.
It's kind of like this in my view: The C'Tan are like soldiers wearing fully body Kevlar. They're extremely extremely resilient vs. bullets, but have zero added protection vs. flamers let's say. That isn't to say they've got a particular weakness to flamers, or that flamers do increased damage to them, but rather they're "just as vulnerable" to fire as your average guy.
Even then though, just Warp doesn't phase them THAT much, considering that the weakened Void Dragon took 2 direct hits from 2 Blackstone Fortresses and wasn't badly injured, and as we know Blackstone Fortresses fire pure Immaterium beams that have been known to cause planets to explode, so...ya know...
And then we're back to the "power levels" thing so...
Just going to say this- if he is the Machine God, then if he woke up he could take over every single titan and destroy Mars, before focusing his attention on Terra with every vehicle in the Imperium. Hell, he wouldn't need disciples to f**k the imperium over. On top of that, I believe that the Necrons put him there. This is perfectly liable and would explain why Orikan the Diviner can possess the Machine Spirit- he can control the dragon. NECRONS WILL RULE.
You were right with the differing power levels, and it really comes into play here. The Nightbringer was beaten by Khaine (though he did put up an awesome fight afaik), but the Void Dragon quite nearly -killed- not beat the Emperor, which in turn is way beyond Khaine in power terms given his ability to scare the gak out of the Chaos Gods which are >>> Khaine.
Also, you can't quite say that they have an added sensitivity to the Warp. It's kind of like this as far as I gather. Material attacks are a joke to them. Shoot a laser at a C'Tan, and he can turn it into flowers before it reaches him. Shoot rockets, he can turn them into puppies. They're masters of reality manipulation, therefore conventional attacks are completely useless against them. Meanwhile, they CAN'T control the Warp at all. So they're "vulnerable" to them in that they don't have any specific defenses against warp energies.
It's kind of like this in my view: The C'Tan are like soldiers wearing fully body Kevlar. They're extremely extremely resilient vs. bullets, but have zero added protection vs. flamers let's say. That isn't to say they've got a particular weakness to flamers, or that flamers do increased damage to them, but rather they're "just as vulnerable" to fire as your average guy.
Even then though, just Warp doesn't phase them THAT much, considering that the weakened Void Dragon took 2 direct hits from 2 Blackstone Fortresses and wasn't badly injured, and as we know Blackstone Fortresses fire pure Immaterium beams that have been known to cause planets to explode, so...ya know...
And then we're back to the "power levels" thing so...
The fact they have such control over reality, and that the emperor would have trouble killing them.
There's absolutely nothing to suggets they're Warp entities, in fact the fluff is exactly the opposite of that. I even quoted a few posts above these, from the Codex where it specifically states that the C'Tan are "immortal star spawn, part of the fundamental fabric of actuality".
They have zero reflection in the Warp, and zero way to affect it. They're about as warp-related as a rock. They're 100% Materium, beings of immense raw power, but with zero connection to the Warp.
The fact they have such control over reality, and that the emperor would have trouble killing them.
There's absolutely nothing to suggets they're Warp entities, in fact the fluff is exactly the opposite of that. I even quoted a few posts above these, from the Codex where it specifically states that the C'Tan are "immortal star spawn, part of the fundamental fabric of actuality".
They have zero reflection in the Warp, and zero way to affect it. They're about as warp-related as a rock. They're 100% Materium, beings of immense raw power, but with zero connection to the Warp.
All things are connected to the warp. If they are in reality then they have a counterpart in the warp.
So a rock has a very plain connection to the warp.
The fact they have such control over reality, and that the emperor would have trouble killing them.
There's absolutely nothing to suggets they're Warp entities, in fact the fluff is exactly the opposite of that. I even quoted a few posts above these, from the Codex where it specifically states that the C'Tan are "immortal star spawn, part of the fundamental fabric of actuality".
They have zero reflection in the Warp, and zero way to affect it. They're about as warp-related as a rock. They're 100% Materium, beings of immense raw power, but with zero connection to the Warp.
All things are connected to the warp. If they are in reality then they have a counterpart in the warp.
So a rock has a very plain connection to the warp.
I'm really curious as to what exactly gave you that impression...
I often wondered if the C'Tan were the "swords" of Vaul. Perhaps the mortal blade was the Omnissiah.
That would imply that they were created, as opposed to simply existing. The 3rd edition Necron Codex stated that they were created during the Big Bang, as creatures of pure energy, so I'm afraid that's not the case. And the Omnissiah = the void dragon.
Your idea is fun, but I'm cool with them being essentially undeniable pieces of the fabric of reality rather than "something else the old ones cooked up".
TheDiscoSpider wrote:
If I've read my fluff correctly, the Eldar Gods are largely non-factors after the whole getting eaten by Slaanesh deal.
This is freaking hilarious. I imagined Craig Fergusen just deadpan delivering this line.
But seriously though, I always thought that the void dragon was in some type of coma that the Emprah induced him into. And that the "dreams" of the sleeping dragon were what inspired the Mechanicum to come up with their ideas (pre-heresy) and that in 40k the Dragon's subconscious is what manifests as the "machine spirit."
You were right with the differing power levels, and it really comes into play here. The Nightbringer was beaten by Khaine (though he did put up an awesome fight afaik), but the Void Dragon quite nearly -killed- not beat the Emperor, which in turn is way beyond Khaine in power terms given his ability to scare the gak out of the Chaos Gods which are >>> Khaine.
Big E beat a shart, Khaine possibly beat a full C'tan (I'm assuming since it took place during the War in Heaven, though we have zero certainty on this)
Mavlun wrote: It's kind of like this in my view: The C'Tan are like soldiers wearing fully body Kevlar. They're extremely extremely resilient vs. bullets, but have zero added protection vs. flamers let's say. That isn't to say they've got a particular weakness to flamers, or that flamers do increased damage to them, but rather they're "just as vulnerable" to fire as your average guy.
Looks like someone never heard of the effects of full copper bullets on kevlar.... Anyhow, if they're completely impervious to physical attacks there's no way the C'tan could've killed eachother or have been beaten by the necrons since neither use warpbased energies.
They're resilient but not immune to the laws of physics.
You were right with the differing power levels, and it really comes into play here. The Nightbringer was beaten by Khaine (though he did put up an awesome fight afaik), but the Void Dragon quite nearly -killed- not beat the Emperor, which in turn is way beyond Khaine in power terms given his ability to scare the gak out of the Chaos Gods which are >>> Khaine.
Big E beat a shart, Khaine possibly beat a full C'tan (I'm assuming since it took place during the War in Heaven, though we have zero certainty on this)
Mavlun wrote: It's kind of like this in my view: The C'Tan are like soldiers wearing fully body Kevlar. They're extremely extremely resilient vs. bullets, but have zero added protection vs. flamers let's say. That isn't to say they've got a particular weakness to flamers, or that flamers do increased damage to them, but rather they're "just as vulnerable" to fire as your average guy.
Looks like someone never heard of the effects of full copper bullets on kevlar.... Anyhow, if they're completely impervious to physical attacks there's no way the C'tan could've killed eachother or have been beaten by the necrons since neither use warpbased energies.
They're resilient but not immune to the laws of physics.
They're clearly not immune to the laws of physics, my point was that there's no conventional attack powerful enough to destroy them. The "eating each other" thing has been retconned as far as I am aware, but even if it were somehow still part of the canon (which I'm almost certain it's not), that's 1 C'Tan beating another. Beings of reality altering power on solar system scale, are IMO more powerful than the "lasers" or "missiles" examples I gave.
As for the Necrons, they didn't destroy them, just broke them into pieces which would've reassembled had they not been locked in tesseract labyrinths. And the sort of power described in the Codex as having been used in those weapons is the sort of power I haven't seen in 40k yet, so discussing that seems kind of moot.
My point as to their "immunity" to conventional attacks is exactly against those. Conventional Materium attacks.
The C'tan cannibalcide was retconned? When did that happen? Admittedly, I only quicky read through Ward's horribad fluff but I never came across anything debunking it.
Desubot wrote: Speaking of retcons, before matt ward got to it, didn't the big E fight the full c tan not a shard?
Yup. My post earlier in the thread:
Just Dave wrote: I personally don't think you can quite compare the Emperor to a C'tan shard. It seems when the book was written - many years before the new Codex - that it was intended to show the Emperor as capable of overpowering a weakened/starving C'tan, rather than a generic shard, as shards weren't around in those days.
IMHO it would however seem reasonable to think that the Void Dragon would otherwise whump the Emperor if it wasn't starving etc.
Desubot wrote: Speaking of retcons, before matt ward got to it, didn't the big E fight the full c tan not a shard?
Yup. My post earlier in the thread:
Just Dave wrote: I personally don't think you can quite compare the Emperor to a C'tan shard. It seems when the book was written - many years before the new Codex - that it was intended to show the Emperor as capable of overpowering a weakened/starving C'tan, rather than a generic shard, as shards weren't around in those days.
IMHO it would however seem reasonable to think that the Void Dragon would otherwise whump the Emperor if it wasn't starving etc.
Popenfresh wrote: The C'tan cannibalcide was retconned? When did that happen? Admittedly, I only quicky read through Ward's horribad fluff but I never came across anything debunking it.
In the newcron fluff, there's absolutely no mention of the cannibalcide. They get their bodies, trick the Necrontyr into becoming machines, eat their souls, get superstrong from that, and go kick Old One ass. In the old fluff, the fighting between the C'Tan was a big thing, leaving the galaxy in shambles, whole star systems consumed, and almost all life in the galaxy extinguished, just through their in-fighting.
Guessing since there's no nod or whisper about that in the new codex, it's not there anymore. Especially since in the old codex, there were only 4 C'Tan left, whereas in the new one it says there were anywhere from 4 to 4000 at the time of the necron betrayal.
One thing people that likes to rag at me about the C'Tan fail to recognize is the fact that Empy the most psyker ever is what they are not in that case. I mean they have just nothing to fend off the mighty will of Empy. And for all we know Empy can just have nearly emptied himself mind-controlling one. Of course this is pure speculation from me.
Beaviz81 wrote: One thing people that likes to rag at me about the C'Tan fail to recognize is the fact that Empy the most psyker ever is what they are not in that case. I mean they have just nothing to fend off the mighty will of Empy. And for all we know Empy can just have nearly emptied himself mind-controlling one. Of course this is pure speculation from me.
I have no idea what you're saying, sorry. The structure of your sentences makes zero sense. Assuming you're saying that the C'Tan couldn't combat the Emperor due to his psychic powers, I'm sure that topic has been done to death, most likely each time ending with the mention of the Void Dragon's shard nearly killing the Emp, (not to mention the C'Tan wiping out the Old Ones).
So yeah...oh noes, they'd be really scared of psykers. :|
Beaviz81 wrote: One thing people that likes to rag at me about the C'Tan fail to recognize is the fact that Empy the most psyker ever is what they are not in that case. I mean they have just nothing to fend off the mighty will of Empy. And for all we know Empy can just have nearly emptied himself mind-controlling one. Of course this is pure speculation from me.
I have no idea what you're saying, sorry. The structure of your sentences makes zero sense. Assuming you're saying that the C'Tan couldn't combat the Emperor due to his psychic powers, I'm sure that topic has been done to death, most likely each time ending with the mention of the Void Dragon's shard nearly killing the Emp, (not to mention the C'Tan wiping out the Old Ones).
So yeah...oh noes, they'd be really scared of psykers. :|
If you applied you reading-eyes instead of your writing hands you might have seen perfect sense of the thread. Just think before writing rudely.
As for explanation. Empy fought the thing with what I assume to be a Force-Spear. And with that I think he just as well can have mind-controlled the creature using the Force-Weapon as a conduit. Was just a suggestion, nothing else as that can explain how he was nearly killed by it.
As for the Necrons, they didn't destroy them, just broke them into pieces which would've reassembled had they not been locked in tesseract labyrinths. And the sort of power described in the Codex as having been used in those weapons is the sort of power I haven't seen in 40k yet, so discussing that seems kind of moot.
The Flayer was destroyed though.
Mavlun wrote: In the newcron fluff, there's absolutely no mention of the cannibalcide. They get their bodies, trick the Necrontyr into becoming machines, eat their souls, get superstrong from that, and go kick Old One ass. In the old fluff, the fighting between the C'Tan was a big thing, leaving the galaxy in shambles, whole star systems consumed, and almost all life in the galaxy extinguished, just through their in-fighting.
Guessing since there's no nod or whisper about that in the new codex, it's not there anymore. Especially since in the old codex, there were only 4 C'Tan left, whereas in the new one it says there were anywhere from 4 to 4000 at the time of the necron betrayal.
God this is why I hate Ward's fluff, he turned the arguably biggest and most epic conflict in the 40k setting into a bland mundane rolfstomp while making a dumb space marine a whirlwind of epic rape and fanwank.
Either way, the new codex doesn't mention the fight between the Emperor and the Void dragon either, does that mean it was retconned too? I personally don't buy it. The new dex seems to focus mainly on the necrons whereas the old dex was very C'tan based, it makes sense it went deeper into the motivations and actions of the C'tan.
It's true though that the new dex is vague on the amount of C'tan left, however, I still didn't see anything directly refuting the cannibalcide. And on top of that I thought it was a very awesome piece of fluff so I'll be damned to let Ward that it away from me as well!
So yeah...oh noes, they'd be really scared of psykers. :|
Then why were they so bent on separating the warp from the materium?
Mavlun wrote: In the newcron fluff, there's absolutely no mention of the cannibalcide. They get their bodies, trick the Necrontyr into becoming machines, eat their souls, get superstrong from that, and go kick Old One ass. In the old fluff, the fighting between the C'Tan was a big thing, leaving the galaxy in shambles, whole star systems consumed, and almost all life in the galaxy extinguished, just through their in-fighting.
Guessing since there's no nod or whisper about that in the new codex, it's not there anymore. Especially since in the old codex, there were only 4 C'Tan left, whereas in the new one it says there were anywhere from 4 to 4000 at the time of the necron betrayal.
God this is why I hate Ward's fluff, he turned the arguably biggest and most epic conflict in the 40k setting into a bland mundane rolfstomp while making a dumb space marine a whirlwind of epic rape and fanwank.
Either way, the new codex doesn't mention the fight between the Emperor and the Void dragon either, does that mean it was retconned too? I personally don't buy it. The new dex seems to focus mainly on the necrons whereas the old dex was very C'tan based, it makes sense it went deeper into the motivations and actions of the C'tan.
It's true though that the new dex is vague on the amount of C'tan left, however, I still didn't see anything directly refuting the cannibalcide. And on top of that I thought it was a very awesome piece of fluff so I'll be damned to let Ward that it away from me as well!
You are spot on with the Matt Ward stuff. I mean he managed to solve a battle with the Ultramarines getting angry, as a solution to them. Never mind Kaldor Draigo, he is so over-powered I consider him to be a Primarch, and the list goes on. Not that Phil Kelly is much better. I mean I was bored when I read the Space Wolves-codex.
Popenfresh wrote: Either way, the new codex doesn't mention the fight between the Emperor and the Void dragon either, does that mean it was retconned too? I personally don't buy it. The new dex seems to focus mainly on the necrons whereas the old dex was very C'tan based, it makes sense it went deeper into the motivations and actions of the C'tan.
It's true though that the new dex is vague on the amount of C'tan left, however, I still didn't see anything directly refuting the cannibalcide. And on top of that I thought it was a very awesome piece of fluff so I'll be damned to let Ward that it away from me as well!
Haha, well of course you can choose to believe whatever you like. Evidence points to the contrary though. Your example is flawed, in that the battle between the Emp and the dragon was referenced in a BL book, whereas the cannibalism as far as I am aware was a big part of the former Codex, but not gone into detail in any BL publishing, therefore its absence from this one is directly relevant.
Further proof lies in the 9 named C'Tan that were destroyed and turned into shards mentioned in White Dwarf, implying that there were at least 9 full C'Tan at the time of the necron betrayal, which goes completely against previous fluff about the Deceiver getting the C'Tan to eat each other until only 4 were left.
But yeah, in the end I guess you can pretend that it still happened.
Popenfresh wrote: Either way, the new codex doesn't mention the fight between the Emperor and the Void dragon either, does that mean it was retconned too? I personally don't buy it. The new dex seems to focus mainly on the necrons whereas the old dex was very C'tan based, it makes sense it went deeper into the motivations and actions of the C'tan.
It's true though that the new dex is vague on the amount of C'tan left, however, I still didn't see anything directly refuting the cannibalcide. And on top of that I thought it was a very awesome piece of fluff so I'll be damned to let Ward that it away from me as well!
Haha, well of course you can choose to believe whatever you like. Evidence points to the contrary though. Your example is flawed, in that the battle between the Emp and the dragon was referenced in a BL book, whereas the cannibalism as far as I am aware was a big part of the former Codex, but not gone into detail in any BL publishing, therefore its absence from this one is directly relevant.
Further proof lies in the 9 named C'Tan that were destroyed and turned into shards mentioned in White Dwarf, implying that there were at least 9 full C'Tan at the time of the necron betrayal, which goes completely against previous fluff about the Deceiver getting the C'Tan to eat each other until only 4 were left.
But yeah, in the end I guess you can pretend that it still happened.
So yeah...oh noes, they'd be really scared of psykers. :|
Then why were they so bent on separating the warp from the materium?
Well why do you think?
You know if things ain't contradicted directly in another codex then it's still canon, I mean BL over a Codex shouldn't normally be followed, especially as the former were much focused on C'Tan. I mean it's really bad often to elect BL-fluff over codex-fluff. A codex can be interpreted, but not directly contradicted unless it is in a later codex. That's the common law.
You know if things ain't contradicted directly in another codex then it's still canon, I mean BL over a Codex shouldn't normally be followed, especially as the former were much focused on C'Tan. I mean it's really bad often to elect BL-fluff over codex-fluff. A codex can be interpreted, but not directly contradicted unless it is in a later codex. That's the common law.
I think you're confused. I agree that codex fluff > BL fluff. With the exception that when something exists in BL fluff, but NOT in Codex, it's still canonical. I still consider the Void Dragon fight, as well as the Nightbringer fight canon, although they don't show up in the new Codex, but the cannibalism was a 3rd Edition Codex-only thing (as far as I know), and as it's no longer mentioned, but in fact is flat out opposed by new fluff, then it's been retconned IMO.
You know if things ain't contradicted directly in another codex then it's still canon, I mean BL over a Codex shouldn't normally be followed, especially as the former were much focused on C'Tan. I mean it's really bad often to elect BL-fluff over codex-fluff. A codex can be interpreted, but not directly contradicted unless it is in a later codex. That's the common law.
I think you're confused. I agree that codex fluff > BL fluff. With the exception that when something exists in BL fluff, but NOT in Codex, it's still canonical. I still consider the Void Dragon fight, as well as the Nightbringer fight canon, although they don't show up in the new Codex, but the cannibalism was a 3rd Edition Codex-only thing (as far as I know), and as it's no longer mentioned, but in fact is flat out opposed by new fluff, then it's been retconned IMO.
Is it opposed directly or not, that's the question.
For example many people wants the Space Wolves to transform into wolves, and feel they with a sentence Dan Abnett wrote can back it up. It's a total lie, and wolves are very little mentioned without space first. If it exists in BL-fluff you are allowed to interpret it, and knowing the fanwank the books of Ward is, they are written as how the guys feels about themselves.
You know if things ain't contradicted directly in another codex then it's still canon, I mean BL over a Codex shouldn't normally be followed, especially as the former were much focused on C'Tan. I mean it's really bad often to elect BL-fluff over codex-fluff. A codex can be interpreted, but not directly contradicted unless it is in a later codex. That's the common law.
I think you're confused. I agree that codex fluff > BL fluff. With the exception that when something exists in BL fluff, but NOT in Codex, it's still canonical. I still consider the Void Dragon fight, as well as the Nightbringer fight canon, although they don't show up in the new Codex, but the cannibalism was a 3rd Edition Codex-only thing (as far as I know), and as it's no longer mentioned, but in fact is flat out opposed by new fluff, then it's been retconned IMO.
Is it opposed directly or not, that's the question.
For example many people wants the Space Wolves to transform into wolves, and feel they with a sentence Dan Abnett wrote can back it up. It's a total lie, and wolves are very little mentioned without space first. If it exists in BL-fluff you are allowed to interpret it, and knowing the fanwank the books of Ward is, they are written as how the guys feels about themselves.
Well, like I said, to me it seems that it's been retconned. It was a very important part of C'Tan history in the 3rd ed codex, but is no longer mentioned in the new one. If it wasn't meant to be retconned, why not include one single sentence of it? Furthermore, there are 8 C'Tan that are turned to shards that we know of FOR SURE (and 1 destroyed) by the Necrons so the "they ate each other until only 4 were left" thing is clearly out of the picture. Moreover, the sentence that there could have been ANY number of C'Tan destroyed by the Necrons in the new Codex is even more proof to me.
You know if things ain't contradicted directly in another codex then it's still canon, I mean BL over a Codex shouldn't normally be followed, especially as the former were much focused on C'Tan. I mean it's really bad often to elect BL-fluff over codex-fluff. A codex can be interpreted, but not directly contradicted unless it is in a later codex. That's the common law.
I think you're confused. I agree that codex fluff > BL fluff. With the exception that when something exists in BL fluff, but NOT in Codex, it's still canonical. I still consider the Void Dragon fight, as well as the Nightbringer fight canon, although they don't show up in the new Codex, but the cannibalism was a 3rd Edition Codex-only thing (as far as I know), and as it's no longer mentioned, but in fact is flat out opposed by new fluff, then it's been retconned IMO.
Is it opposed directly or not, that's the question.
For example many people wants the Space Wolves to transform into wolves, and feel they with a sentence Dan Abnett wrote can back it up. It's a total lie, and wolves are very little mentioned without space first. If it exists in BL-fluff you are allowed to interpret it, and knowing the fanwank the books of Ward is, they are written as how the guys feels about themselves.
Well, like I said, to me it seems that it's been retconned. It was a very important part of C'Tan history in the 3rd ed codex, but is no longer mentioned in the new one. If it wasn't meant to be retconned, why not include one single sentence of it? Furthermore, there are 8 C'Tan that are turned to shards that we know of FOR SURE (and 1 destroyed) by the Necrons so the "they ate each other until only 4 were left" thing is clearly out of the picture. Moreover, the sentence that there could have been ANY number of C'Tan destroyed by the Necrons in the new Codex is even more proof to me.
I'm vary in person for Matt Ward-retcons. Especially when it comes to things left out, they don't count for anything, plus you have the very valid POV-point when it comes to any codex he writes, as I refer to the C'Tan-point raised earlier.
Lot's of new codices make old fluff fade into the background, that doesn't necessarily mean it's gone completely. That reminds me, whatever happened to the pariahs anyway, are those officially gone too now?
But yeah, considering the new codex turned a good deal of fluff from the old one 180degrees around, I'd say the absence of one piece oldcron fluff in the new codex doesn't count as a complete recton (in my opinion at least). But yeah, by adding 4 new C'tan the cannibalcide story does indeed appear to be less of a certainty. But like I said, I also didn't see any fluff directly debunking it either.
You know if things ain't contradicted directly in another codex then it's still canon, I mean BL over a Codex shouldn't normally be followed, especially as the former were much focused on C'Tan. I mean it's really bad often to elect BL-fluff over codex-fluff. A codex can be interpreted, but not directly contradicted unless it is in a later codex. That's the common law.
I think you're confused. I agree that codex fluff > BL fluff. With the exception that when something exists in BL fluff, but NOT in Codex, it's still canonical. I still consider the Void Dragon fight, as well as the Nightbringer fight canon, although they don't show up in the new Codex, but the cannibalism was a 3rd Edition Codex-only thing (as far as I know), and as it's no longer mentioned, but in fact is flat out opposed by new fluff, then it's been retconned IMO.
Is it opposed directly or not, that's the question.
For example many people wants the Space Wolves to transform into wolves, and feel they with a sentence Dan Abnett wrote can back it up. It's a total lie, and wolves are very little mentioned without space first. If it exists in BL-fluff you are allowed to interpret it, and knowing the fanwank the books of Ward is, they are written as how the guys feels about themselves.
Well, like I said, to me it seems that it's been retconned. It was a very important part of C'Tan history in the 3rd ed codex, but is no longer mentioned in the new one. If it wasn't meant to be retconned, why not include one single sentence of it? Furthermore, there are 8 C'Tan that are turned to shards that we know of FOR SURE (and 1 destroyed) by the Necrons so the "they ate each other until only 4 were left" thing is clearly out of the picture. Moreover, the sentence that there could have been ANY number of C'Tan destroyed by the Necrons in the new Codex is even more proof to me.
I'm vary in person for Matt Ward-retcons. Especially when it comes to things left out, they don't count for anything, plus you have the very valid POV-point when it comes to any codex he writes, as I refer to the C'Tan-point raised earlier.
Regardless of the opinion on the name of the author, the fact that it's been retconned still stands as far as I'm concerned.
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Popenfresh wrote: Lot's of new codices make old fluff fade into the background, that doesn't necessarily mean it's gone completely. That reminds me, whatever happened to the pariahs anyway, are those officially gone too now?
But yeah, considering the new codex turned a good deal of fluff from the old one 180degrees around, I'd say the absence of one piece oldcron fluff in the new codex doesn't count as a complete recton (in my opinion at least). But yeah, by adding 4 new C'tan the cannibalcide story does indeed appear to be less of a certainty. But like I said, I also didn't see any fluff directly debunking it either.
Like I said, there isn't anything directly saying "oh btw the previous edition codex stuff about cannibalism is gone", cause that wouldn't make any sense
Not when it's not done directly. Then it stands, nothing else. And as mentioned Matt Ward's fluff is very OTT, so the POV is a very valid thingy against his fluff. I mean Phil Kelly seems modest in comparison with Matt Ward, and then you know it's bad.
That'd be dumb indeed, but an example of a full retcon is how in the the oldcron dex the C'tan were the ones calling the shots, now it's the other way around. You can't say cannibalcide fluff has been overhauled by the same degree.
Popenfresh wrote: That'd be dumb indeed, but an example of a full retcon is how in the the oldcron dex the C'tan were the ones calling the shots, now it's the other way around. You can't say cannibalcide fluff have been overhauled by the same degree.
Clearly, that is a full retcon, but I am of the opinion that the cannibalism thing is also indirectly hinted to (with quite tangible evidence), as well.
1st off, there's no real -reason- for the cannibalism in the new fluff. Secondly, it's not even hinted to even in the least. Thirdly, when the C'Tan are at their weakest, aka after the War in Heaven, there's the numbers thing.
I think it was meant to be retconned, and that's heavily hinted to, but since people had already fallen in love with The Deceiver and his plots, they didn't want to slap them in the face directly. Also, the freedom to create your own C'Tan with its own abilities and backstory (which can even be that he ate some other C'Tan if you feel like it ) as opposed to being forced to choose between 1 of 4 remaining C'Tan is better IMO.
Mavlun wrote: Clearly, that is a full retcon, but I am of the opinion that the cannibalism thing is also indirectly hinted to (with quite tangible evidence), as well.
1st off, there's no real -reason- for the cannibalism in the new fluff. Secondly, it's not even hinted to even in the least. Thirdly, when the C'Tan are at their weakest, aka after the War in Heaven, there's the numbers thing.
I think it was meant to be retconned, and that's heavily hinted to, but since people had already fallen in love with The Deceiver and his plots, they didn't want to slap them in the face directly. Also, the freedom to create your own C'Tan with its own abilities and backstory (which can even be that he ate some other C'Tan if you feel like it ) as opposed to being forced to choose between 1 of 4 remaining C'Tan is better IMO.
I'll agree that it was probably meant to be retconned.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure the C'tan were at their strongest after the war, it would make perfect logical sense. The massive carnage and destruction would've fed them infinitely more than robotosizing a single race. Especially since the new fluff made the war so mundane.
But see, this is another reason why I dislike the new fluff so much, Oldcron C'tan were capricious arrogant beings. The Old Ones weren't even beaten and being so cocksure of their victory they dismissed them started turning upon one an other. It gave them so much more flavor as villains. Now they're nothing more than worfs there to show off how OTTOP the newcrons are. They didn't trick the necrontyr into being their slaves and on top of that they were turned into boring worfs in order for Ward to show off how much more powerful his new faction was relative to everything that was already established.
Sure the C'tan their powerlevel went even more up but that hardly makes for a better bad guy. If you look at the C'tan simply from the perspective on the newcron codex they're so very lackluster.
Mavlun wrote: Clearly, that is a full retcon, but I am of the opinion that the cannibalism thing is also indirectly hinted to (with quite tangible evidence), as well.
1st off, there's no real -reason- for the cannibalism in the new fluff. Secondly, it's not even hinted to even in the least. Thirdly, when the C'Tan are at their weakest, aka after the War in Heaven, there's the numbers thing.
I think it was meant to be retconned, and that's heavily hinted to, but since people had already fallen in love with The Deceiver and his plots, they didn't want to slap them in the face directly. Also, the freedom to create your own C'Tan with its own abilities and backstory (which can even be that he ate some other C'Tan if you feel like it ) as opposed to being forced to choose between 1 of 4 remaining C'Tan is better IMO.
I'll agree that it was probably meant to be retconned.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure the C'tan were at their strongest after the war, it would make perfect logical sense. The massive carnage and destruction would've fed them infinitely more than robotosizing a single race. Especially since the new fluff made the war so mundane.
But see, this is another reason why I dislike the new fluff so much, Oldcron C'tan were capricious arrogant beings. The Old Ones weren't even beaten and being so cocksure of their victory they dismissed them started turning upon one an other. It gave them so much more flavor as villains. Now they're nothing more than worfs there to show off how OTTOP the newcrons are. They didn't trick the necrontyr into being their slaves and on top of that they were turned into boring worfs in order for Ward to show off how much more powerful his new faction was relative to everything that was already established.
Sure the C'tan their powerlevel went even more up but that hardly makes for a better bad guy. If you look at the C'tan simply from the perspective on the newcron codex they're so very lackluster.
Hmmm you've got a couple of things somewhat wrong.
In the new fluff, the C'Tan were at their strongest once they devoured the Necrontyr. They were supposedly in the billions, and the "soulfood" gave them powers beyond belief. After the war, having battled it out with the Old Ones, they were severely weakened, from battle, as well as exhausting energy just generally turning the galaxy to mush by means of black holes, supernovas, etc, and directly fighting the Old Ones. This was their weakest point, and the only moment during which the incredible weaponry the Necrons had, had any sort of chance of breaking them into the shards.
Concerning the cannibalism, in the old fluff they were tricked into eating each other by the Deceiver, as populations had grown thin and they were running the risk of running out of food. It was less a hubris thing, and more a hunger thing.
In the new fluff, they DO in fact trick the Necrontyr into being their slaves. The only notable differences are that it was one single individual (or rather the triarch) that decided the fate of the Necrontyr race, the Silent King.
Overall I like the new codex. I never liked The Deceiver as a C'Tan, feeling like he didn't belong to that race, but rather as the Eldar God. The Necron got a lot more interesting to me, there's a lot of interesting, cool new characters and stories, and I have very few gripes with it (my main one is that the Necron can speak instead of being the creeping, silent death, which was the one thing I wish would've remained unchanged.
As for lackluster, tell me you really don't love Trazyn.
Ninja edit: Derp, it was in fact the deceiver that tricked the SIlent King into accepting the bio transferrence in new fluff.
Mavlun wrote: Clearly, that is a full retcon, but I am of the opinion that the cannibalism thing is also indirectly hinted to (with quite tangible evidence), as well.
1st off, there's no real -reason- for the cannibalism in the new fluff. Secondly, it's not even hinted to even in the least. Thirdly, when the C'Tan are at their weakest, aka after the War in Heaven, there's the numbers thing.
I think it was meant to be retconned, and that's heavily hinted to, but since people had already fallen in love with The Deceiver and his plots, they didn't want to slap them in the face directly. Also, the freedom to create your own C'Tan with its own abilities and backstory (which can even be that he ate some other C'Tan if you feel like it ) as opposed to being forced to choose between 1 of 4 remaining C'Tan is better IMO.
I'll agree that it was probably meant to be retconned.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure the C'tan were at their strongest after the war, it would make perfect logical sense. The massive carnage and destruction would've fed them infinitely more than robotosizing a single race. Especially since the new fluff made the war so mundane.
But see, this is another reason why I dislike the new fluff so much, Oldcron C'tan were capricious arrogant beings. The Old Ones weren't even beaten and being so cocksure of their victory they dismissed them started turning upon one an other. It gave them so much more flavor as villains. Now they're nothing more than worfs there to show off how OTTOP the newcrons are. They didn't trick the necrontyr into being their slaves and on top of that they were turned into boring worfs in order for Ward to show off how much more powerful his new faction was relative to everything that was already established.
Sure the C'tan their powerlevel went even more up but that hardly makes for a better bad guy. If you look at the C'tan simply from the perspective on the newcron codex they're so very lackluster.
Hmmm you've got a couple of things somewhat wrong.
In the new fluff, the C'Tan were at their strongest once they devoured the Necrontyr. They were supposedly in the billions, and the "soulfood" gave them powers beyond belief. After the war, having battled it out with the Old Ones, they were severely weakened, from battle, as well as exhausting energy just generally turning the galaxy to mush by means of black holes, supernovas, etc, and directly fighting the Old Ones. This was their weakest point, and the only moment during which the incredible weaponry the Necrons had, had any sort of chance of breaking them into the shards.
Concerning the cannibalism, in the old fluff they were tricked into eating each other by the Deceiver, as populations had grown thin and they were running the risk of running out of food. It was less a hubris thing, and more a hunger thing.
In the new fluff, they DO in fact trick the Necrontyr into being their slaves. The only notable differences are that it was one single individual (or rather the triarch) that decided the fate of the Necrontyr race, the Silent King, and that there's no mention of The Deceiver being the one that did the tricking, but they were indeed tricked.
Overall I like the new codex. I never liked The Deceiver as a C'Tan, feeling like he didn't belong to that race, but rather as the Eldar God. The Necron got a lot more interesting to me, there's a lot of interesting, cool new characters and stories, and I have very few gripes with it (my main one is that the Necron can speak instead of being the creeping, silent death, which was the one thing I wish would've remained unchanged.
As for lackluster, tell me you really don't love Trazyn.
As for them eating each other it was in fact the Laughing God that tricked Tsara'noga into eating another C'Tan and going nuts. It was Eldar trickery no doubt with magic involved.
Mavlun wrote: It was actually The Deceiver, aka Mephet'Ran.
Tsara'Noga = The Outsider.
The deciver was the one betraying the C'tan, the Outsider was the one tricked into thing by the Laughing God. At least according to the 3rd. edition.
Oops, misread your post. I thought you said the Outsider was the one doing the tricking
Hahaha, no wonder you sounded like such a dick. No I leaned on the 3rd. codex-thingy, that's when it started. I must say I question the sanity of the Outsider. I mean if the Joker (The Laughing God) came over to me and stold me eating my friends being a good thing I would have said no. Instead he choose to eat his friend.
Mavlun wrote: It was actually The Deceiver, aka Mephet'Ran.
Tsara'Noga = The Outsider.
The deciver was the one betraying the C'tan, the Outsider was the one tricked into thing by the Laughing God. At least according to the 3rd. edition.
Oops, misread your post. I thought you said the Outsider was the one doing the tricking
Hahaha, no wonder you sounded like such a dick. No I leaned on the 3rd. codex-thingy, that's when it started. I must say I question the sanity of the Outsider. I mean if the Joker (The Laughing God) came over to me and stold me eating my friends being a good thing I would have said no. Instead he choose to eat his friend.
You're applying human logic to beings that had been created at the same time as the Big Bang, and that for billions of years not even aknowledged that they were in a material universe, content merely with feeding. See, that's why I don't like the Deceiver. All the C'Tan have some very small human-ish trait, mostly hunger, whereas the Deceiver is just a human in C'Tan's clothing. Just doesn't fit.
Mavlun wrote: It was actually The Deceiver, aka Mephet'Ran.
Tsara'Noga = The Outsider.
The deciver was the one betraying the C'tan, the Outsider was the one tricked into thing by the Laughing God. At least according to the 3rd. edition.
Oops, misread your post. I thought you said the Outsider was the one doing the tricking
Hahaha, no wonder you sounded like such a dick. No I leaned on the 3rd. codex-thingy, that's when it started. I must say I question the sanity of the Outsider. I mean if the Joker (The Laughing God) came over to me and stold me eating my friends being a good thing I would have said no. Instead he choose to eat his friend.
You're applying human logic to beings that had been created at the same time as the Big Bang, and that for billions of years not even aknowledged that they were in a material universe, content merely with feeding. See, that's why I don't like the Deceiver. All the C'Tan have some very small human-ish trait, mostly hunger, whereas the Deceiver is just a human in C'Tan's clothing. Just doesn't fit.
If that's the case it serves nothing than to make Empy even mightier. He was the ultimate man and being like he told told Lorgar when he made him kneel. That wasn't a lie. That was the truth about Empy, too bad ultimate father wasn't amongst them skills.
It's usually hubris that brings the mightiest to their knees, and the Emp (as well as the C'Tan) was no exception. That's just the way things are, I suppose.
I feel like we've derailed the thread horribly and want to apologize for my part in that to the OP, sorry, got carried away.
Back on topic, the 3rd ed. codex has a cool little story about Abaddon getting info from a daemon concerning the Void Dragon. It shows the basalt caverns beneath Mars. In the floor there's a sarcophagus made of adamantium and gold, with flickering beams of "unimaginable" energy flowing in a glittering arc to the sarcophagus.
Take this either as a containment field of sorts, or a feeding mechanism, or a way to drain the Void Dragon, but apparently that's what it looks like. The end of the Codex has a vision of a Farseer, with the C'Tan causing the death of the Galaxy. The Void Dragon has apparently conquered and enslaved Mars and the mechanicum, and has used them as slaves, bleeding them of energy, then tossing them like used napkins (obviously not in those words )
Beaviz81 wrote: As for explanation. Empy fought the thing with what I assume to be a Force-Spear. And with that I think he just as well can have mind-controlled the creature using the Force-Weapon as a conduit. Was just a suggestion, nothing else as that can explain how he was nearly killed by it.
The Force Spear?
Oh right, the one that shattered because it couldn't penetrate the C'tan's hide.
You were right with the differing power levels, and it really comes into play here. The Nightbringer was beaten by Khaine (though he did put up an awesome fight afaik), but the Void Dragon quite nearly -killed- not beat the Emperor, which in turn is way beyond Khaine in power terms given his ability to scare the gak out of the Chaos Gods which are >>> Khaine.
Big E beat a shart, Khaine possibly beat a full C'tan (I'm assuming since it took place during the War in Heaven, though we have zero certainty on this)
Mavlun wrote: It's kind of like this in my view: The C'Tan are like soldiers wearing fully body Kevlar. They're extremely extremely resilient vs. bullets, but have zero added protection vs. flamers let's say. That isn't to say they've got a particular weakness to flamers, or that flamers do increased damage to them, but rather they're "just as vulnerable" to fire as your average guy.
Looks like someone never heard of the effects of full copper bullets on kevlar.... Anyhow, if they're completely impervious to physical attacks there's no way the C'tan could've killed eachother or have been beaten by the necrons since neither use warpbased energies.
They're resilient but not immune to the laws of physics.
The Eldar Gods were far more powerful during the war in heaven than they were in the dying days of the Eldar Empire. It's explicitly stated that the Eldar Gods weakened as they allowed the corruption and hedonism infect them.
Kain wrote: The Eldar Gods were far more powerful during the war in heaven than they were in the dying days of the Eldar Empire. It's explicitly stated that the Eldar Gods weakened as they allowed the corruption and hedonism infect them.
We can assume this but is it stated anywhere specifically? Make no mistake I agree I just don't think the true scope of their power was ever explicitally stated. They're usualy very much just background notes in the fluff (as they should be).
Sir Samuel Buca wrote: This has been hinted at for a long time. St. George and the dragon is supposed to be the Emperor and the Dragon (with a capital 'D').
It's long been rumoured that the Dragon is also actually the Machine God.
If by "long" you mean "since Graham mouth-farted that stupid part of Mechanicum" then I agree. The stuff from the 3rd Ed Necron 'dex was so vague as to be pointless, and that was good, because the whole concept is moronic and completely robs the Mechanicus of any agency and, more importantly, their story of any impact and meaning. The Mechanicus was an indictment of dogmatic belief over rational inquiry, a twisted mockery of the transhumanist ideal that, rather than empowering humanity, limits it. In that respect it was good science fiction in the classical sense; it examined a scenario in which human behaviour interacts with technology, and showed us the consequences of making poor decisions.
Now they're a plot device. THE EMPRAH needed fleets and weapons for his armies, so he beat up a baddie and stuck him under a group of humans to somehow make them do what he wanted via psychic osmosis. I quite like Graham McNeil's books most of the time, but he doesn't seem to really understand the Mechanicus, he just presents them as scientists who believe in God, which completely misses the point that they're supposed to be the complete antithesis of the scientific method and mindset.
Sir Samuel Buca wrote: This has been hinted at for a long time. St. George and the dragon is supposed to be the Emperor and the Dragon (with a capital 'D').
It's long been rumoured that the Dragon is also actually the Machine God.
If by "long" you mean "since Graham mouth-farted that stupid part of Mechanicum" then I agree. The stuff from the 3rd Ed Necron 'dex was so vague as to be pointless, and that was good, because the whole concept is moronic and completely robs the Mechanicus of any agency and, more importantly, their story of any impact and meaning. The Mechanicus was an indictment of dogmatic belief over rational inquiry, a twisted mockery of the transhumanist ideal that, rather than empowering humanity, limits it. In that respect it was good science fiction in the classical sense; it examined a scenario in which human behaviour interacts with technology, and showed us the consequences of making poor decisions.
Now they're a plot device. THE EMPRAH needed fleets and weapons for his armies, so he beat up a baddie and stuck him under a group of humans to somehow make them do what he wanted via psychic osmosis. I quite like Graham McNeil's books most of the time, but he doesn't seem to really understand the Mechanicus, he just presents them as scientists who believe in God, which completely misses the point that they're supposed to be the complete antithesis of the scientific method and mindset.
It was an unreliable vision. Just because characters attribute it to show the Emperor and/or the Void Dragon doesn't mean it has to be that.
And yes, I would agree with you about the Adeptus Mechanicus. For them, discovery is more like archaeology. Their entire dogma is structured around recapturing the lost "Golden Age" by scrounging and reconstructing fragments rather than genuine rediscovery and research. Tech-Priests are also more like stereotypical lone mad scientists than modern day scientists. There is no flow of information or peer review as understood in the modern sense. Each Tech-Priest hoards their knowledge and it is passed down like a mystery cult or initiation.
Sir Samuel Buca wrote: This has been hinted at for a long time. St. George and the dragon is supposed to be the Emperor and the Dragon (with a capital 'D').
It's long been rumoured that the Dragon is also actually the Machine God.
If by "long" you mean "since Graham mouth-farted that stupid part of Mechanicum" then I agree. The stuff from the 3rd Ed Necron 'dex was so vague as to be pointless, and that was good, because the whole concept is moronic and completely robs the Mechanicus of any agency and, more importantly, their story of any impact and meaning. The Mechanicus was an indictment of dogmatic belief over rational inquiry, a twisted mockery of the transhumanist ideal that, rather than empowering humanity, limits it. In that respect it was good science fiction in the classical sense; it examined a scenario in which human behaviour interacts with technology, and showed us the consequences of making poor decisions.
Now they're a plot device. THE EMPRAH needed fleets and weapons for his armies, so he beat up a baddie and stuck him under a group of humans to somehow make them do what he wanted via psychic osmosis. I quite like Graham McNeil's books most of the time, but he doesn't seem to really understand the Mechanicus, he just presents them as scientists who believe in God, which completely misses the point that they're supposed to be the complete antithesis of the scientific method and mindset.
Actually it's been around for a long time. McNeil just expanded the story a bit.
Sir Samuel Buca wrote: This has been hinted at for a long time. St. George and the dragon is supposed to be the Emperor and the Dragon (with a capital 'D').
It's long been rumoured that the Dragon is also actually the Machine God.
If by "long" you mean "since Graham mouth-farted that stupid part of Mechanicum" then I agree. The stuff from the 3rd Ed Necron 'dex was so vague as to be pointless, and that was good, because the whole concept is moronic and completely robs the Mechanicus of any agency and, more importantly, their story of any impact and meaning. The Mechanicus was an indictment of dogmatic belief over rational inquiry, a twisted mockery of the transhumanist ideal that, rather than empowering humanity, limits it. In that respect it was good science fiction in the classical sense; it examined a scenario in which human behaviour interacts with technology, and showed us the consequences of making poor decisions.
Now they're a plot device. THE EMPRAH needed fleets and weapons for his armies, so he beat up a baddie and stuck him under a group of humans to somehow make them do what he wanted via psychic osmosis. I quite like Graham McNeil's books most of the time, but he doesn't seem to really understand the Mechanicus, he just presents them as scientists who believe in God, which completely misses the point that they're supposed to be the complete antithesis of the scientific method and mindset.
There's been a large shift in 40k from "backwards gakhole with no progress" to "there is progress but it won't matter, you're all gonna die" for the source of grimdark.
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