From the upcoming Kickstarter...........

Implacable, remorseless, fearless, and without mercy Orcs are feared far and wide. Rare in the North lands these vicious brutes are far cousins of Goblin kind from the dry arid highland Deserts of the southron lands west of the Aelf lands. Not much taller than a man but weighing easily as much as three large men Orcs are incredibly strong and tough. It is said that an Orc can survive a spear through it's gut long enough to kill ten men, or barely flinch as an arm is cleaved away. It is said they are unnatural, that they are more akin to trolls than to goblins bred in ancient times by mad wizards seeking to build an unstoppable army but that they threw down their lords and destroyed their kingdom.......... but whatever..... thank the Gods these monsters are as quick to war upon each other as they are men or dwarves or elves else the north lands would have been over run long ago.




This set will include 4 modular figures fitted for universally interchangeable legs, torsos, right handed options, left handed options, and heads. Included in the set will be 4 unique torsos, 2 sets of 2 unique legs ( 4 sets of legs total ) , 1 sprue of head options ( 4 unique heads ), 1 sprue of 4 right hand options ( 1 sword, 1 axe, 1 flail, 1 prosthetic weapon ), and 1 sprue of 4 left hand options ( 1 cleaver, 2 shields, 1 prosthetic weapon ) and 4 25 round mm bases.

Upon reaching the funding goal the Orc Footmen will be available as ranks selection.



Right now I am finishing a unit of 6 new Dvergr ( dwarf ) Modular footmen which will be fitted for universally interchangeable heads ( 6 options currently ) and right hand options ( 2 swords, 2 axes, 2 hammers ) . Their shields will integral parts of the figures.

I am also trying to decide whether or not to use the goblin footmen I have already sculpted or scrap those amke all new goblins. I want these to be genre defining and beign that the previously shown goblin footmen sculpts are a wee bti on the big side for RBG goblins AND more than a a year and half old ( sculpt wise ) I think I can do MUCH better.

Which also makes me want to totally rethink the goblin wolf riders as well.....

Anyway new Kickstarter launching probably tomorrow so I figured I would give the head's up. These figures will ALL be produced in Metal BTW.

Looking good! Really hope this stuff is gonna work out for you guys this time.

 tre manor wrote:
I am also trying to decide whether or not to use the goblin footmen I have already sculpted or scrap those amke all new goblins. I want these to be genre defining and beign that the previously shown goblin footmen sculpts are a wee bti on the big side for RBG goblins AND more than a a year and half old ( sculpt wise ) I think I can do MUCH better.

Ahh! Please cast a set of those so I can buy them! I only have the warp goblins and spearmen, I never got a set of the footmen. LMK if you'll sell me a set!

Well I am HOPING to make a new set of footmen.

exciting stuff

Looking forward to this, best of luck Tre! I for one can't wait to see more of your figures, awesome stuff!

Nothing from this KS will be "genre defining", Tre'. Our hobby and the fantasy genre has been around for a little bit of time at this point, and there's been a few rather large books, games, model producers and films (not to mention a couple thousand years worth of folklore) that took care of "genre defining" a long time ago.

Just make good figures. Put the existing footmen in, and if you make enough, perhaps you can sculpt some new ones as stretch goals, or for a future release.

As far as "too big" goes. I have male friends who are both 6'4" and 5'6". My mother used to be 5'1" before she shrink in her older age, so she's probably about 4'10" now. There's a pretty decent amount of normal height variation amongst members of the same species - and they're all the same scale.

Alright, interesting stuff!

EDIT: Having done a little more research, I rescind some of my earlier comments. I'm not actually getting the backer updates for reasons not worth getting into, but I just read them and feel caught up. I'm bummed trollcast didn't work out, though. I had contributed to this Kickstarter on behalf of my store, to start carrying Red Box products, but with the switch back to metal, I'm going to have to pass on continued involvement. Tre, if you want a retailer's input, metal minis don't sell to roleplayers (unless they were sculpted in the 80s), and they're honestly a pretty hard sell to wargamers too if you're trying to get them to play your game system. Your fantasy metal mini customer is likely one of the following:

1) a second edition D&D grognard, who more often than not likes his minis like he likes his rules: poorly designed and badly outdated.
2) a wargamer who is disenchanted by GW (easy to find), but hasn't found what he or she's looking for in Hordes or Malifaux (much harder to find) AND who views modeling as a secondary concern to gameplay (which is even harder to find, because let's face it: the people who are more into good rules than hobby potential left GW for one of the aforementioned years ago).

Reaper's making a hard dive into plastic because it outsells their metal 5:1, and hell, I don't even carry metal Reaper anymore except the Pathfinder-branded stuff. It just doesn't sell. Unless you continue with plastics, I worry you're just going to struggle to find your market, which is a shame because you're a phenomenal sculptor and clearly a deeply committed and passionate guy. I honestly contribute the success of your first Kickstarter in large part to your loudly switching to plastic at around the same time Reaper was already dragging thousands of roleplayers to Kickstarter looking for minis.

This is all just food for thought. I know you have a great base of deeply committed customers, and if this were a hobby for you, I'd stay quiet on this, but hearing that you're switching back to metal is setting off all the same alarms for me that would be sounding if someone told me they wanted to open a video rental place. Don't do it, Tre!!

This is the one I was waiting for from Red Box games. I'm totally on this.

Trollcast didn't quite work out for various reasons. Tre's models still look great in metal. I'd recommend emailing Tre again now, though pledges have been going out a lot more recently. It'll depend on what you have to see if yours has gone out. The last couple of KS email updates had more specific information that would probably be useful for you.

Sorry, that edit got away from me, and should have been its own post.

Sorry that I did not get back to you redcapscorner! I recognize your name though. Needless to say I have been getting a TON of email and messages over the past several months. Though that is CERTAINLY no excuse. Email em again I assure you that I will respond immediately.

As for the switch back to metal, Yep Azazel has it right. Trollcast just did not work out. I love the material and Ed is a hard worker but they just have too much on their plate and I cannot afford to wait any longer.

And yeh Az, I guess I do need to reel my ego in a bit here don't I?

Well rather than genre defining maybe the better idea is to make them the best figures that I can make. Which I don't feel that the current footmen are at all. I just don't feel like the current gobbos really fit the quality standard that I wan tto set for RBG.

Tre, you might want to consider leaving the goblins as the larger versions, and just making them elites, hobgoblins, or something like that. Red Box minis tend to be on the smaller scale for the industry as is due to non-heroic proportions, so this might increase crossover.

Have you got all of the sculpts ironed out from your first KS? I know they're running late on casting additional copies, but for some reason I thought some molds were still waiting to be cast. I ended up getting just about one of everything so am still in limbo on my pledge.

Its a shame you've had too give up on plastic resin Tre, despite all the problems i think the orcs would've been a big seller if the price was right. But since they're going to be metal im guessing that they will just cost too much for most people to be able to build decent sized units of them. (Im hoping that in the far future plastic resin orcs might be a possibility...)

I agree with Azazel and Bossk_Hogg about the Goblin footmen, you've already finished them and it just makes no sense tossing perfectly good sculpts away when you could still get some money from them.

Also will there be an exclusive model in the campaign this time round?

Mr Gutsy wrote:
Its a shame you've had too give up on plastic resin Tre, despite all the problems i think the orcs would've been a big seller if the price was right.

Certainly easier to assemble. Oof, not looking forward to pinning hands onto arms with my oven mitt paws...

ALL joins will be pre-pinned with heavy plug and sockets built on.

 tre manor wrote:

Well rather than genre defining maybe the better idea is to make them the best figures that I can make. Which I don't feel that the current footmen are at all. I just don't feel like the current gobbos really fit the quality standard that I wan tto set for RBG.

Sorry Tre' - I'm going to have to keep arguing with you here. From the pictures I've seen of the goblin footmen, there's absolutely nothing wrong with them, and more importantly, you have fans who keep posting that they really like them and want to purchase them. If they were gakky sculpts, then sure, shelve them. But look at it this way - even as a perfectionist, you're still going to be improving and reiterating. In a year's time, you might not like the sculpts that you're producing today.

Put them in as a rank option. - Let the backers/market decide. If people don't like them, they won't buy them. George Lucas didn't like his Original Star Wars films 25 years later, but a lot of people prefer the earlier, original works over the "remastered" ones.

Additionally, having more options and more sculpts gives you something that GW used to have in their metal models but no longer have with most of their current ranges - depth. Especially if you're setting up a skirmish game. Think back to when you were a collector and gamer before you became a sculptor - I'm sure you preferred the ranges with more choices of sculpt over those with fewer. Did you try to "collect 'em all"? I know I did with many of the GW ranges as I was growing up, and I still do much of the same today with figure ranges. That = sales, which is much-needed money in your pocket.

I agree. You're doing metal, and you have the old footmen molds, so offer them as a choice! I know I will pledge for them. then if you wanna sculpt more, do it - and I'll add those on too!

See, Tre'?

People aren't wanting to buy them because they're cheap figures to bulk out a unit - there's plenty of options for that sort of thing these days. And it's not like those options are bad sculpts these days, either - so people are making a conscious choice because they like and want your ones.

If you don't release them, you're leaving money on the table. Money that could be used for anything - even, say, setting up equipment for in-house casting. Think with your head, not your heart - but as I said, if people thought they were gak, they would not want them!

Woohoo, glad to see you're getting back in the game Tre. I don't know enough about the industry to say for sure whether I think the move to metal again is a good idea or not - I have both trollcast and metal figures and they're both really lovely so I will pledge for either.

On the Goblins, I'm excited by the idea of new goblins, but I really, really love the Goblin Spearmen and Goblin Footmen sculpts, as well as the Goblin archers. If it doesn't cost you money to keep them available, I would love a chance to purchase them, AND whatever new goblins you come up with. I would happily explain away scale discrepancies with "These are Hill Goblins, a more rugged and hearty breed than the scrawny Forest Goblins of the South."

Also, Dwarves, Orcs and Goblins are my three favourite factions, so, good call will start putting money aside.

Ok ok!! hah hah!

Alright I will just keep the old footmen for now with maybe a bit of a tweak. They are not yet molded so I can still modularize them. I think I can fit them in to the current scheme of things.

This KS is super straight forward. Each pledge level corresponds to ranks only. Heroes ( as there are going to be less of them ) are paid for additions to existing pledges. This was the best way I could think of to get this working. I am also offering items from the back catalogue as rewards as well.

I am almost ready to launch btu I have just a few thigns to finish up first.

Pledges for ranks only, with heroes as add-ons, is a great idea! Should simplify things a lot

I agree. Setting aside funds now!

Kickstarter is go!

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1103158358/red-box-games-dwarves-and-goblins-and-orcs-oh-my

And I'm in

goblins, bonebacks, wraith knights and goblin footmen (when they unlock)

for now

I have to say, Tre, that looks great!

So many options, so much to pick from... *drool*

Wow, so much stuff!

Definitely want Goblins and Dwarves, probably want Orcs if/when they get done. But I also love the Aenglish, Norse and Halfblood heroes!

Need to think about what I want.

Tre, really like the layout on this one, it seems very clear and unambiguous. Hope this is a roaring success for you.

Pulled the trigger on $180

2 Ranks Goblin Footmen (16)
2 Ranks Runty Goblins (18)
1 Rank Bonebacks (8)
1 Rank Wolves (6)
1 Rank Dwarven Footmen (6)
1 Rank Byrnjar A (6)
1 Rank Byrnjar B (6)
1 Rank Ymirs Band (9)
with the possibility of adding 2 ranks of Orcs? (8)
If not, moar Goblins!
66 Models for 180 dollars. Not too shabby considering they're all metal. 'Course, it only makes sense to take advantage of the KS discount and pick up some heroes as well, which I've been meaning to do for ages now. This could get expensive

Edit: Woops! got my maths wrong. It's 83 models for 180, or 2.16 per miniature. That's some good value!

I've been looking forward to this for a while though I was hoping to see some of the goblin characters from the previous kickstarter included. I'd like to get in for some of the goblins but the rank selections don't seem to be that good value for money right now. On the RBG store the spearmen are $8.99 for 6 and the archers are $3.99 for 3, which is quite a way from the $25 to get them through the kickstarter. Hopefully this is someething that has just been missed and can be fixed.

Keep up the great work Tre!

If you're looking to just get a few of the existing (cheaper)figures you're probably better of shopping direct

however if you're after a bunch of stuff (or some of the new potential unlocks) the KS offers extra value as you pledge for more ranks.

Ugh, the choices! I'm going to just have to plunk some money in, and decide what I want at the end...

This finally got me in gear and I took a scale photo of the models I got from the KS1 campaign. Note that there is a penny, and the bases at the bottom of the photo are 25mm, while the one near the top is 20mm.

The thing I think is important to note is how small those wolves are. Tre is going to be sculpting goblins riding on top of them. They're about the size of the old Ral Partha metal wolves. Whereas Fenris is actually bigger than many other manufacturer's wolves (Tre mentioned that he is almost a god wolf).

The horses are also perfectly in-scale with many other ranges, as are the four male models shown. However, I believe these models are very large for Tre's range. Note how tiny the female model is up by the wolves!

Finally, note the metal bonebacks. Personally, I absolute love these and paid a small fortune to get some as they were getting hard to find lol, only to have them become available in metal again now . I think they are a good size, but remember- Tre plans to be sculpting goblins riding on the wolves that are pictured below them, so those "normal" sized goblins are Tiny. Whereas bonebacks look small, but I think can blend in next to goblins of other ranges (because they're halfway between a goblin and an orc for Tre).

Hope this helps . I am very pleased with these models, but it's important to know the scale! I had planned to convert my bonebacks to be riding these wolves, lol... now they will just be "herding" the wolves with whips

Good idea! It's important to note the scale for folks who don't know tre's stuff and are expecting 'heroic' scale.

Bone backs do fit on Tre's bear quite nicely though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Some scale shots:

Tre's Little Goblins: http://www.coolminiornot.com/forums/showthread.php?48052

Nice pics . They are on 20mm bases, right?

The little goblins? Yes. I think the humans are on 25mm. I'd pull them out and double check, but I've got them packed away in storage for a move.

...and funded already!

depending on my next paycheck, i might have to toss in for some goblins from this

hey Tre is there any way I could get 9 archers as a rank instead of 6 spearmen + 3 archers as a rank? i already own 36 of your metal spearmen

Interesting - The "design your own miniature" pledge is very (comparatively) cheap at $1,000, and does NOT have the usual limit to the number of backers that can select it.

(By comparison - the Freebooter Miniatures campaign last fall had a "Werner Klocke sculpts your mini idea" pledge and it was $1700 and with a 3 backer limit.)

Having someone the caliber of Tre sculpt your own mini is very tempting. If anyone has had some idea of a mini They've been wanting and can't seem to find, now is probably as good as it gets to snag one.

RiTides, do you have any of Tre's wolves? If so, would you mind taking some scale shots of them, way next to a ruler and/or a space marine so I can get a sense of size?

Azazel, I do, did you see the 3 small wolves in the pics I took above? They're small so maybe you missed them

I will try to take a better scale pic of just them... problem is, I only have a FW chaos dwarf, a converted 40k ork, or a fantasy ogre as a "GW" scale comparison. I keep meaning to find a single space marine for this purpose...

I'm actually pretty happy with the size of those wolves- real wolves aren't as big as LOTR wargs or "dire" wolves.

Azazelx

here's a shot of Fenris (wolf god) 5.5cm head to tail, 3.5cm high

and one of the Dire wolves 3.5 cm head to tail, just under 2cm high



(sorry for the rubbish photo, but hopefully it does the job)

grefven wrote:
So many options, so much to pick from... *drool*

I'll echo that drool. I don't own any Red Box minis (missed the first KS), and there is much here that is catching my eye.

Cheers guys!!

Thanks for posting that, Orlando!

I wish there was a cheaper "sweet spot" here... Like I said, spent what I had saved for it taking someone's KS 1 pledge, and $25 for one rank or $45 for two is a bit steep for people wanting to dip their toes in (although I know it drops to $18 per rank at a 10-rank pledge).

Overall, though, I think the prices look good. Much cheaper than the eBay bonebacks I got!

Certain ranks offer less value than others, probably because they are modular or large figures. Right now the Orcs are looking like being expensive to get in large amounts, but they are also probably going to be pretty big going from Tre's description. I am interested to see what will come along in the way of stretch goals. Tre's approach seems to be a cautious one this time, and since he lost money on the first KS, I can understand that. I'd rather have RBG around and producing more miniatures for the future than have gotten a burst of cheap minis now and then see it go out of business.

Update #1 FUNDED!!!!!!! and shipping cost estimates

AWESOME!!! Many thanks to all of you who have backed this project thus far! I am very excited to see some returning backers and new backers as well! I am even more excited about FINALLY being able to get back to work on new stuff!

Right now we are closing in on the Dvergr Footmen and beyond those, the ORCS!!! I am really very much looking forward to being able to show the WIPS of the orcs. Thus far he is coming together very well even if the modularity is a bit of a pain. I am keenly interested to know which item you guys would like to see expanded after the Orc footmen. Mayhaps a Njornan Hero? Goblin Hero? Dvergr hero? War staff? Orc Spearthrowers?? Orc spirit Witch? Or maybe Aelfar Footmen??

I have read many questions regarding the shipping costs. The reason I have set it up the way that I have is because I want to make the shipping work as smoothly as possible and while I do not foresee the fulfillment for this effort taking much more than 3 months or so I also want to keep the option open that if this DOES take longer than expected I can at least be able to ship what items I have on hand rather than having to wait until ALL items are received.

As far as the costs of shipping are concerned I will always try to keep the costs as low as possible. I do not seek to profit from shipping and handling. I want to get your product to you as quickly, and efficiently and cheaply as possible. I cannot accurately estimate shipping costs as we are dealing with worldwide shipping and with highly variable weights BUT I do have a general idea of how much each package will cost based on the number of figures contained there in. Please remember also that this I am basing this estimate on HUMAN sized METAL figures. Smaller figures will obviously weigh less per figure and will lower the postage cost while larger metal figures will weigh more and affect the costs accordingly. Resin figures will also weigh much less and in turn cost less to ship as well.

The following is an APPROXIMATE break down of the possible shipping costs. This is in no way a guarantee of actual costs.

# of figures US International

1-10..............$3............$8

11-25............$4............$10

26-45............$5............$10-15

46-65............$8............$15-20

66-85............$10..........$20-25

86-100..........$10...........$25-30

101-150........$12...........$30-35

151-200........$15...........$35-40

Please note that this is NOT a guarantee of postage costs. Some packages will cost less that listed above and some will cost more. This is just an estimate of possibilites.

Thanks everyone! And please ask any questions that you feel arise.

Cheers,

Tre'

I'm totally in! It's great to see Tre working up new sculpts. The Orcs should be fairly awesome, although I am a goblin lover at heart. Wolf riders and footmen are what I am going to be happy to see in production.

 RiTides wrote:
Azazel, I do, did you see the 3 small wolves in the pics I took above? They're small so maybe you missed them

I will try to take a better scale pic of just them... problem is, I only have a FW chaos dwarf, a converted 40k ork, or a fantasy ogre as a "GW" scale comparison. I keep meaning to find a single space marine for this purpose...

So, they're small, huh?

Those three figures will work just fine for scale. Thanks!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Thanks for the pics.. under 2cm? For Dire wolves? Hm, probably a bit small for my uses. I was hoping for stuff I could use as LotR SBG Wargs/Wolves, since a lot of Tre's models lend themselves to LotR.

I could use them as pups, I guess - but I don't want to buy more stuff just for it's own sake and then have to make excuses/figure out what I could use them for. They'd also work well for "real" wolves in RPG's.

Are the wolves really considered small??

 Azazelx wrote:

 RiTides wrote:
Azazel, I do, did you see the 3 small wolves in the pics I took above? They're small so maybe you missed them

I will try to take a better scale pic of just them... problem is, I only have a FW chaos dwarf, a converted 40k ork, or a fantasy ogre as a "GW" scale comparison. I keep meaning to find a single space marine for this purpose...

So, they're small, huh?

Those three figures will work just fine for scale. Thanks!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Thanks for the pics.. under 2cm? For Dire wolves? Hm, probably a bit small for my uses. I was hoping for stuff I could use as LotR SBG Wargs/Wolves, since a lot of Tre's models lend themselves to LotR.

I could use them as pups, I guess - but I don't want to buy more stuff just for it's own sake and then have to make excuses/figure out what I could use them for. They'd also work well for "real" wolves in RPG's.

To me those wolves look giant. I mean, they aren't 6' tall at the shoulder, but they are easily far larger than an appropriately scaled wolf would be. A Gray Wolf is, like, little more than 2' at the shoulder I think. So a normal wolf is not even coming up to my waist. Standing erect (not crouched), those wolves probably come up to at least mid-chest on a 6' tall humanoid at that scale. Tre is probably better at explaining the scale, but to my eyes they seem to be as large or larger than a big Irish Wolfhound. I'm guessing something like 3.5'-4' at the shoulder. That is a big canine. I would be happy to say that is a dire canine.

LOTR Wargs are cyclopean monsters, about the size of Tre's Fenris model, or larger. In the Peter Jackson films they are gargantuan, like bear-sized wolves; even larger. A brown bear is something like 5' or so at the shoulder. Those Jackson Wargs are at least that big if not bigger. Tre's dire wolf models seem to be in line with a D&D dire wolf.

Tre,

I think those wolves are perfect for 'real' wolves (and a major reason I was so pleased to get them, along with their looks)

Quite a lot of the other wolves on the market are larger and fine for use as 'wargs' or other superwolves but a bit rubbish if you're after natural animals

Yeah, I said that. They would be fine for normal wolves, especially for RPGs and of course they're scaled to RBG proportions. I always pictured dire wolves as closer to 5', but then there's a lot of differen RPG systems out there. They're just too small for my own purposes.

I agree that they are a realistic size for a normal dog/wolf. I just wanted to post up the pics so folks thinking of getting them to use as wolves for other things would know their size.

I think they're small to be ridden, certainly, and also wanted people to see the size comparison between them and the ridden horses.

Overall, I am happy with them, I was just a bit shocked at the size and had to come up with a different use for them than I had originally planned. Hopefully, this helps other people not be taken off guard, and know exactly what they would be geting if they pledged for them (and thus if they are small for their tastes, they could simply pick something else).

It's much less of an issue in this campaign, where they are 6 for $18 at the highest pledge level (rather than 3 for $18 as in the first campaign) and where there are soooooooo many choices to pick from for the rank options

I think they are a good size to be ridden by goblins. In Dungeons and Dragons, Small Goblins ride Medium wolves, which is exactly what these guys look like to me. GW's goblins have always been on the chunky side of "small".

As I said before, I think that the wolves are way too large for an appropriately scaled wolf. One of the things I love about Tre's miniatures is that they are all scaled very, very consistently.

I think they are small for a "Large," as in D&D large, wolf, and agree with Da Boss on that point. Even so, Large in D&D is larger than a human, so we're talking like a wolf the size of a grizzly bear.

Tre's dire wolves seem to evoke the sort of size of a frighteningly large wolf. Like, abnormally massive, tiger or lion-sized wolf. This reminds me of the dire wolves in the Game of Thrones series; freaking large wolves, but not grown-man-riding-me gigantic wolf.

I admit that when I first pulled them out I thought they looked small, but then I set them next to the RBG miniatures and I was like, oh, no, those are darn big wolves. I am going to use them as huge wolves in a wold west game too, and I particularly like that they are big, but not like fantastically, amazingly, monstrously huge.

Fenris is the size of the dire wolves people are talking about.

Isn't scale a bit arbitrary in a fantasy universe with imaginary races in it?

Again, I don't disagree, but I think the pictures speak for themselves that those wolves are scaled as wolves were in the early 90's or the like, rather than what someone might expect now. It's totally fine, just as long as people Know!

In the last campaign, there was no visual way to tell how much larger Fenris was. Now there is, so it's win-win

WIPS of a modular orc. Still WIP, no armour on it yet etc..

10K!! Dorfs are funded!
That ork ... I'm speechless

 tre manor wrote:
Are the wolves really considered small??

I would say yes, depending on the system. Like in D&D, dire wolves can be ridden by man sized creatures, so they'd need to be about horse sized. They look great for wolves/worgs goblins ride though.

Good news on the split stretch goals! I really hope we climb up to them fast and get some momentum going!

I am thinking that a KS LE will help that happen. I am working on the idea tonight.

More work on the first orc:

Wonderful fearsome beast. Now I really want to see the head options.

Working ont he heads and arms today!

I really love the texture in the skin. This Orc is really coming to life!

I'm in on this but only for the Orcs. I got some of Tre's Orcs when I was trying out Pathfinder and I loved them.

Looking very nice.

Love the mane of fur on the Orc's back, and the general build. Looking really great, excited by the potential for a great end product!

I'm a bit of a nut for Orc and Goblin models, very happy to see something that is this "orcish" while still being original. So much on the market is derivative of either New Line's orcs (which are great) or GW's orcs (which are great but very cartoony for my current tastes).

First option set doen except for the weapons!

Wow, now that is some great sculpting! The muscle is, as always, just amazing.

Just out of curiosity, is that red material wax? It holds the details so well...

the material is Chocolate CErnit. GREAT modelign clay as logn as you condition it properly.

Wow, I really like the face! It brings back the old "pig faced orcs" of old school D&D but without just making them pig men. Its something that looks more believable, and that someone could call pig faced as an insult, rather that just stating the literal.

 tre manor wrote:
the material is Chocolate CErnit. GREAT modelign clay as logn as you condition it properly.

And that proper condition is....?

silent25 wrote:

 tre manor wrote:
the material is Chocolate CErnit. GREAT modelign clay as logn as you condition it properly.

And that proper condition is....?

In Tre's hands.

 judgedoug wrote:

silent25 wrote:

 tre manor wrote:
the material is Chocolate CErnit. GREAT modelign clay as logn as you condition it properly.

And that proper condition is....?

In Tre's hands.

-_-

Now that... that is just awesome

Tre, could you either take a measurement of the height or post a pic next to a ruler? Will that model stand on a 25mm base (I'm guessing yes?) or a 40mm one?

The reason I ask is, I picked up 2 of your metal Bugbear sculpts (made for Reaper) to use as ogre crew for my chaos dwarf dreadquake mortar. Now, it's a little small for ogre-size, but works for my purposes:



If these orcs are big enough to use, instead, I'll probably pledge for a set

The footmen are smaller than that Bugbear, but the brutes will be larger than the footmen. Still probably not as big as THAT monstrosity but big for RBG standards.

@ silent25 and JudgeDoug!

The best way to work with Cernit chocolate is to condition it a little bit at a time and condition it onyl once and only until it is pliable. It is incredibly dry and your skin will actually leach out the oil from it making it dryer AS you condition it. Think of it similarly to putty in that you have certian conditions under which it works bets. It does nto dry on it's own and ocne you hav eit on the figure it does tend to remain softer for longer periods of time ( btu it is NEVER soft like other varieties of poly clay ) It works beterr when it is warm than it does when it is cold.

It really is kind of a PITA until you get the hang of it. One you do it beats the living hell out of other varieties in my opinion.

I am now almost finished with the first of the New Njorn footmen which will be the next stretch goal. Shoudl have pics tonight or tomorrow.

Tre, Mantic should hire you. Your true 28's fit in with their 28's, and you would fix a lot of recent issues they've had with sculpt quality. Plus you're one of the best sculptors on the planet.

Did you see my earlier question? Regarding the goblins. I own 36 of the spearmen, would it be possible to pledge for goblin ranks and get 9x archers (instead of 6x spear and 3x archers in one rank)?

Whoops!! I missed that! Sorry Doug...... Hmm... yeh I need to figure something out there. I would actually very much like to expand the goblin archers ranks. I am hoping that by getting the Njorn footmen in there that we can get a big enough bump in backers to fund through more than 1 other goal. The order I have in mind right now are;

Orc footmen

Njorn Footmen

Dvergr War Staff

goblin wolfriders

I do not want to think too far ahead but I think these will definitely make it before the close of the kickstarter. I guess that there is certainyl nto any harm in makign a rank of goblin archers only though. Let me see what i can work out costs wise.

Thanks for the response, Tre. I really love that WIP, sounds a little small for the first idea I had, so I'll have to come up with another

Also, Njorn footmen will broaden the appeal and are a Great next stretch! An exclusive add-on would do well, too, as you mentioned.

Orc looks great. I second the request for a ruler/scale shot.

First of the modular Njorn bodies WIP.

RiTides, I know you've already posted the big shot witht he 25mm base and the US coins, but could you post another scale shot of the Bonebacks - maybe standing next to a GW goblin? Or even a RBG dwarf?

Ideally, something similar to the blog post pics I took comparing RBG Dwarves to other ranges. Actually, I may as well link the post here as well, since the Dvergr are in this and it may be relevant to people


L-R: D&D Miniatures, Reaper Bones, Old GW (Bugman!), Red Box Games, GW LotR, Recent-ish GW, Reaper Warlords.

http://azazelx.wordpress.com/2012/08/07/how-big-is-that-dwarf-anyway/

Also wanting to clarify for certain - DVERGR BRYNJAR A and B are both 6-model ranks while YMIR'S BAND is a 9-model rank?

And if anyone owns the Wraith Knights, I'd love to see scale and/or ruler shots of those as well. I'd be wanting to mix those in with my LotR Wights, etc.

 tre manor wrote:
Whoops!! I missed that! Sorry Doug...... Hmm... yeh I need to figure something out there. I would actually very much like to expand the goblin archers ranks. I am hoping that by getting the Njorn footmen in there that we can get a big enough bump in backers to fund through more than 1 other goal. The order I have in mind right now are;

Orc footmen

Njorn Footmen

Dvergr War Staff

goblin wolfriders

I do not want to think too far ahead but I think these will definitely make it before the close of the kickstarter. I guess that there is certainyl nto any harm in makign a rank of goblin archers only though. Let me see what i can work out costs wise.

my advice is to swap the Dvergr War Staff and the Wolf Riders. The wolf riders (and bonebacks) seemed to be what most people wanted in the cancelled kickstarter. You have 4 Dwarf ranks available. Dwarf Footman A, Dwarf Brynjar A and B, and Ymir's Warband. The goblin wolfriders offer something radically different. Unless the dwarf warstaff does the same, I'd go that route to offer a wider range of options.

Good point. You're right on the money there.

While true, I think Tre was unhappy with the traction those KS2 goals got... but yes, lots of people were requesting the wolf riders. I'm not sure they realized how small they'd be, though, as it'll be hard to stand in for wolf riders in most other systems! That said, the WIPs he showed did look sweet!

Azazel, I'll try for a comparison shot but I don't own any other goblins other than Tre's and few GW models. I've got FW chaos dwarfs to compare them to (since I got them to use as hobgoblins for my upcoming chaos dwarf army) and some other manufacturer's dwarfs that I'll try to take a pic of this weekend.

A second head and second hands option for the modular orcs. More updates / wips to come.

Awesome! I love the new Orc head!

It is certainly a unique and impressive take on Orcs!

Tre, you never cease to amaze...

Brilliant! So glad I'm pledging.

I'm loving the hell out of these orcs too. So damn brutal and bestial!

I can't wait to move to the hero and the brutes!!

The reaction to the Orcs has been so positive that I think I will focus more on them as the campaign progresses. I will still get the Njorn and Dvergr War Staff in there and the wolf riders. But i think I am going to intersperse those with Orc goals.

I think that's a great idea Tre! I really like the way you are sculpting these orcs, I feel they are very realistic looking and can't wait to see more of them.

Definitely going to be backing this for the nice looking orcs and goblins.

Tre, while I think that is a fantastic idea, I do think it's important for the next goal after these first four orcs to be the modular Njorn. You've already shown a WIP of a Njorn and some people have really been waiting on them. It broadens the appeal a lot

Then, perhaps putting an orc goal after that one since, as mentioned before, there are so many Dvergr in the campaign already.

I have to admit I'd been planning to sit on the sidelines here and now all I've been thinking about is how to use those orcs, despite the fact that I don't play orcs . I'm thinking unit filler perhaps...

Is there an add-on price for extra ranks beyond 10? I have been wondering about piggy-backing onto someone's pledge, but I haven't seen a way to add on ranks to a pledge without going up to the next pledge. (Although maybe someone only wants 7-8 ranks and I could piggyback that way).

For instance, I'm interested in 10 orcs, so that's 2.5 ranks... if someone is pledging for the max pledge and interested in splitting some of it off, just let me know

Exactly, I don't even need Orcs but I'm going to get some because they're amazing.

I'm trying to make a list in my head of what 10 ranks I want for my 180 pledge and I might end up wanting 15 ranks. Any way you can do a 15 rank for $250 pledge, Tre? I betcha a "one of everything in the KS: all ranks and heroes currently available, and one rank of everything unlocked" for $500+ would probably nab a few. People like being guaranteed everything.

Yeah, they do . Lots of completionists on kickstarter! Would make it easy to track, too.

Well here's the thing, when I built the rewards I built them for the best possible discount I could offer. I really don't make very much profit at all on the 180 pledge as it is. Figure that the $180 pledge gives you 10 ranks. Which going off of the base value of each rank is a $70.00 value. To be totally honest I set the prices stupidly low again. The Orcs for example..... selling them at the $180 only nets me enough money per figure to restock what I sell. I actually won't profit a dime from them at the expected production prices. I did not even really think about it until just now actually.

I want to produce them and I won't back down from what I set the prices at now, but I also cannot afford to offer them any cheaper either.

I worry that stacking on more discounts is going to start working against me again the way that it did in the previous kickstarter. I don't want to leave money on the table but I also don't want to shove it over the edge reaching for it either.

I am trying to figure something out that will work.

I don't think you need to add a discount, just an add-on price for ranks in case someone wants more than 10 (like judgedoug mentioned).

Just published an update. Unfortunately I had to close the Atta, Nio, and Tio level pledges where they are now. I apologize for any inconvenience or confusion but this is absolutely neccessary.

$20 per rank instead of $18 isn't bad at all... but, you probably want to make a new pledge level at $200 for 10 ranks.

It's interesting that you're worried about the price of the 4-model orc ranks, which is your very first stretch goal! They must be quite a bit larger than the dvergr since there's a set of 9 dvergr for $20... but that's good .

That said- as I mentioned in my first line, I think $20 for the ranks you're offering is still a pretty fantastic deal, I was surprised you could keep it even that cheap in metal! I paid that much for just 4-packs of bonebacks on ebay, although admittedly moreso because I didn't know if you'd be offering them up again.

Housekeeping-wise, it might be worth message the single ATTA and NIO pledgers to see if they will move their pledge (still getting the same discount and just entering a custom amount). It'd also look a bit cleaner to limit TIO to 40 rather than 39 . Just thinking about new backers coming to the page for the first time and being confused by the options.

And again, right now your highest normal pledge level is $140 so adding in a new TIO at $200 would probably help

I agree with RiTides. Getting an orc figure for $5 is still a fantastic price!

How big are the orcs?

Could you take a pic with the sculpt standing next to Sverreulf, Halvaror, a Wraith Knight and maybe a couple of the KS1 figures? (and a goblin!)

That would give people a good perspective of their size compared to other figures from across the RBG ranges - since these Orcs are a new part of the range it will make it very useful when working out how they can fit into customer's/people's collections.

Why do these Orcs look so much different than this Orc?



Or is the concept art shown so far is for the troll brother? Because that makes a lot more sense.

Well, that one is a Reaper orc. So it probably went through concept art to specifications, then was approved to look a certain way by the customer (Reaper). The RBG range is Tre' sculpting essentially what he wants to do himself.

If you look around on the internet, Kev Adams has done some somewhat similar (yet noticeably different) and very different orcs for different companies that look very little like his "classic" work for GW.

Otherworld:


Renegade:

Backed. I need those orcs

The second Orc stretch goal has been met Roll on modular Nord!

I JUST took the first option set apart last night Az. I will try to get him put back together for that pic btu I did post a pic of the orc next to Weglaf for scale reference.....though I can see that does not quite cover all the bases as did your suggestion.

The RBG Orcs are just that RBG Orcs, they are not intended to be compatible ( design wise ) with other ranges. I wanted these figures to have their own look entirely.

Yeh looks liek we had a big bump over the past 2 days and now we are on to the Modular Njorn!! WOO HOO!! I guess I had better at least get one more of them sculpted.

Fair enough, thanks.

 tre manor wrote:
I JUST took the first option set apart last night Az. I will try to get him put back together for that pic btu I did post a pic of the orc next to Weglaf for scale reference.....though I can see that does not quite cover all the bases as did your suggestion.

Thanks for putting in the effort to get the comparison photos - they'd be good to have up on the KS page, so we can see how big they are. From the pic they look hulking, but it's hard to tell exactly.

Tre, will you be adding the $200 for 10 ranks pledge level?

An updated WIP of one of the modular njorn footmen (which are the next stretch goal):

Good to see "viking-alikes" who actually look like they might live somewhere a bit chilly

Damn, I really don't know if I like the Orcs or the Njorn best now. These modular Njorn are most likely going to look awesome, and many of the Njorn heroes are among my absolute favorites. Oh my, will be hard not to go over budget on this!

 Da Boss wrote:
Good to see "viking-alikes" who actually look like they might live somewhere a bit chilly

What are you talking about, here in Sweden we're bare chested year-round. Of course, we're all so damn hairy and covered with slabs of muscle that I guess it amounts to the same thing as clothing.

 RiTides wrote:
Tre, will you be adding the $200 for 10 ranks pledge level?

Update 7: ... Each rank added to your pledge beyond the Sjua mark is $20.00 unless otherwise specifically stated ...
So you pick sjua and just increase amount pledged to 200 + something for the individual heroes, you do want heroes.

Yeah, I know it's possible. But that text isn't on the main page, and most KS backers pledge for the most popular level. That would be 10 ranks here, but only a 7-rank level is open.

*shrug*

RiTides is right I do need to get a specific pledge up for that amount. Sorry I have been off my game lately I am having a MISERABLE time with Flu / Strep Throat....... Man I hate being sick.

I am goign to add that pledge now though.

Get well soon!

Cheers for listening to the feedback, Tre! Hope you feel better soon :-/

Thanks guys.

Update from Tre in the comments:

The Doc was actually taken aback by the condition of my throat. he said it was as red as my shirt ( which is VERY red. ) Anyway been on the meds today and I am feeling MUCH better. I have been drifitng in and out of sleep all day. I had not realized just how much the pain was keeping me going and once it was mitigated I was zonking out left right and center. FInally I do not feel any pain now so I am expecting to get a good night's sleep tonight and wake up refreshed and ready to get back at it tomorrow. So expect more updates and more Stretch goals. Hopefully we can get the momentum back up again!
Thanks for your patience with me guys!
Cheers!
Tre'

Ugh, sounds rough! But at least the medicine is kicking in

Another orc footman sculpted, this time with armour:

As I said on Kickstarter, I love these orcs more and more the longer I look at them!

Really impressed with the sheer speed Tre is putting out sculpts considering he's also down with a hefty dose of strep throat. Had that a couple of years ago and it is absolutely no fun.

These are gorgeous!

Tre has also posted a neat new backer banner by (Dave?) Needham.

I've got it hooked up to the KS in my signature and present it below for those that want for follow suit


{url=http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1103158358/red-box-games-dwarves-and-goblins-and-orcs-oh-my}{img}https://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/projects/541911/posts/494615/image-265412-full.jpg?1369856643{/img}{/url}

replace the { }brackets with [ ]brackets to get it to work

Important new update




Hey everybody,

I have been meaning to post something about this for a while now as the subject has come up a few times. After a great deal of thought on the matter and no small amount of anxiety to boot I have decided that I won't be allowing post Kickstarter Pledge Ups. I think that for sake of fulfilling the KS quickly and efficiently and keeping all records coherent it makes more sense to be sure that all monies are collected via the kickstarter system. I will also not be using my back catalogue minis as rewards in any future KS campaign either as this campaign is intended to be utilized to help get my figures into wider distribution, and if there is any ambiguity as to the pricing of my figures retialers and distributors will have no incentive to carry my line of figures.

So, to make a long story short; this is the only time you will have the opportunity to get these figures for this price. So if there are items you want listed in the KS and you want them for the KS price you will need to pledge for them before the kickstarter closes.

I know that that creates inconvenience for some but I think it is the best thing to insure the the health of the RBG line over the longer term.

Again thank you all for your support and confidence! I am continually humbled and honoured.

Cheers,

Tre'


so

NO post KS pledge manager/cash addition
NO further use of existing minis as rewards

keep this in mind when you pledge

A perfect sound decision. Makes more joy if RBG runs a KS #4. Only new stuff.

Another WIP. Tre is looking for comments on it.

Something is not working with that miniature. Perhaps it is the strep throat sculpting .

The mini is in a very early WIP stage, but the armor is what is throwing it off. I think you may have been going for a stiffer leather, which makes sense. However, the armor looks too soft and pliable at the shoulder and abdomen relative to the chest and waist.

I still don't get how you manage to crank these out so quickly, especially considering that this mini, which looks pretty good on the whole, represents one of the only 'misfires' I've seen with the RBG line, and it isn't even close to finished anyhow.

After a bit of a lull, the campaign sort of got some steam over the last few days! Here's hoping Tre puts up some stretch goals tonight or early tomorrow to keep the momentum up. Impressed at how fast the actual "browns" are coming along though, very impressed. Glad I'm in for the full whack, may upgrade for some more ranks depending on what gets done (I'm down for 4 heroes already, one of those will be the Orc one if he gets done.)

The only faction I don't have any of are the Aelfar. I sort of feel that elves shouldn't have "footmen" like the other races perhaps. Better served by individual heroes?

The next WIP, another torso / modular set of legs for the Orcs:

Also, njorn footmen have funded, the next goal is a big orc hero at 25k

 tre manor wrote:
I JUST took the first option set apart last night Az. I will try to get him put back together for that pic btu I did post a pic of the orc next to Weglaf for scale reference.....though I can see that does not quite cover all the bases as did your suggestion.

I'm really liking those orcs, Tre' - but I need to make sure they are of a size that will be useful to me. Where is that size comparison pic that you mentioned? I've looked through all the updates but can't find it.

Egadz! Sorry Az, here is a pic of the first kit WIP next to one of my humans. Bear in mind also that each of these is varying in size a bti here and there. This first kits is the thus far the smallest of the kits though not really by much.

Broken link!
I'll try again once I get home.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nope! Still no worky.

Damn..... are you registered to my forums??

I've stuck the image on my photobucket



hopefull Azazelx can see it now

Thanks Orlando. I'm pretty sure I've got that bloke standing next to the orc as well. I'll have to dig him out and have a proper look.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tre' - I'm not sure TBH. I usually lurk there.

well looks like Orlando got it sorted. the pic was hosted through my forum's attachments.

Might be worth putting up on the KS in an update. (or a similar shot with one of the newer/current sculpts.) I'm sure that existing RBG customers would like to see just how big these are. From the un-scaled sculpt pics they look like they could easily be the size of your Reaper Gnolls/Bugbears going by the amount of detail and skin texture on them.

The concept art for the orc hero that unlocks at 25k.

The last modular orc torso is sculpted. Here is a pic of the fourth torso, and then a pic of all four torso options together:

Can't wait to get my hands on these!

Does anyone here own the Wraith Knights and would by chance be willing to take a scale shot of them next to a space marine or Imperial guard figure?

Officially in on the fun. The modular orcs are just too good to pass up. They're big, brutish, and refreshingly different from the omnipresent GW orcs. Now to sit and pray that the orc hero gets unlocked.

Tre has mentioned that he is going to add a KS exclusive figure, but the longer it takes before he adds it, the less cash it will generate. He really need to quicken the pace with that one in particular. It will generate some momentum again.

Well, it's 400% funded right now, and better that it's small enough to be manageable than overwhelming like KS1 or set up to implode based on unsculpted unachieved stretch goals like KS2.

Yeah. You can really tell that Tre has learned a lot of lessons from those two in terms of caution but also in terms of having sculpted products ready to go from the start of the KS. Interesting that this is the last time the back catalogue will be available through KS though. I think it contributed to the success of this kickstarter but I can definitely understand why it wouldn't be sustainable. I just wonder how Tre will get a sense of security in future kickstarters.

In any case, I'd rather see a manageable KS that generates good profit for Tre than one that promises too much and then doesn't deliver. It must be galling for Tre to look at KS getting up into the hundreds of thousands rapidly off little more than renders and concept sketches, or to compete with entire companies worth of people keeping KS fulfilled and updated. I'd be reasonably happy if we got to the Orc Chieftain this time, I feel I'm getting a lot of stuff I want. If we get to the Wolf Riders I'll be even happier.

One thing Tre could learn from this KS is to go in with more of a definite idea about Stretch Goals. It seems a bit make it up as you go along at present.

Edit: I must admit, I feel a bit self concious calling Tre by his first name. I know it's the standard operating procedure for many KS, but it still seems presumptuous to me!

Well, without beating around the bush, there are several (possibly insurmountable?) things that will keep a RBG KS from achieving the success of something like Raging Heroes.

Without going on a rant, I'll list some of the issues, as I see them.

* Tre's Kickstarter-rep has been badly hurt by the way the first two went.

* Starting a third before some people have their items from #1 just guarantees that all but the biggest RBG diehards from that group won't be pledging. People still waiting on stuff would also be amongst the larger pledgers from KS1.

* Scale compatability. While some people like RiTides are happy to make an army of RBG gobboes, he's in the minority. I have an O&G army mostly made up of old-school Kev Adams metals. RBG orcs and (especially) goblins and wolves don't fit my army, so they're not suitable to add. People with newer GW O&G figures would find the differences even more glaring.

* Style compatability - The new orcs are great sculpts, but they are reinventing the wheel. They won't fit any of my WH/40k forces even in a broad sense. They're also quite different to the Pig-faced orcs of old D&D and don't fit the LotR look either. Hence my posts about scale - I'm literally trying to think of some way I could use them (and what I could use them for). The best I've come up with so far has been as Half-Trolls for WotR/SBG.

* Due to size and style compatability issues, the RBG range in general works well as roleplaying models, but roleplayers (even GMs who have a bucket of monsters) tend to have far fewer figures than Wargamers.

* Essentially through chance, Tre's dwarves, elves and halflings work great for Lord of the Rings (WotR/SBG) proxies. I'm just thinking of this now, but is the KS being pimped in the LotR subforum here? Over at The One Ring? It's one of the few rulesets with a larger following that fits (large chunks of) Tre's range perfectly. It's the reason I keep asking for scale pics of those Wraith Knights, because, you know, I'm not willing to buy them without knowing if they will work for what I want them for.

* Tre' sculpts for Tre'. Not you nor I. If we also like what Tre' likes, then we buy. If not, we don't. While I'm sure that the Raging Heroes crew enjoy the female form, they're obviously aiming their stuff at the rather large cheesecake-loving demographic. So did Bombshell Babes (with very few models) and Kingdom Death. I'm not being a beret-wearing hipster here or anything, but Tre's models are very much not aimed at the masses, being smaller-scaled rather generic fantasy in small numbers. Raging Heroes aren't Tre's competition, nor GW or even Mantic. Reaper and Bones are his competition. If you sculpt for a niche of a niche, expect sales (and KS backing) in line with that.

* Related to the last point and several others - Tre's figures are never going to compete with figures scaled and aimed at the Warhammer/40k demographic. it's a basic fact in our niche hobby. If you sell Warhammer-compatible miniatures, you'll sell more models. That's how Mantic started and despite their KS-derived products/IP, it's still no doubt their main market (note things like the Ogres recently being made more WFB-competitive in price). It's the raison d'etre and lifeblood of all our favourite Polish resin-model producing companies, along with places like Anvil and even what I believe got Dreamforge off the ground (look for mentions of "warhound titan" in the DFG threads!).

* For entirely legitimate reasons, Tre' as said that he can't afford to give "better deals" or freebies in the KS. His Frothers posts pretty much reflect his opinions on Kickstarter discounts and freebies in a not so subtle manner. The fact is though, that the big miniatures KS base a lot of their success on the "pile o loot" theme to draw in lots of people who would otherwise not have bought in. Without the piles of extras and BOGOF and discounts to draw in people who are on the fence, Tre' gets by much more on goodwill from his existing customers, and this leads us right back to my first two points...


So with all of this in mind, there really should be no expectation of this hitting $100k. It's already a solid success at $21k based on the above points, in my opinion. if it gets to $30k or beyond, that should really be a cause for celebration, if you soberly take into account all of the points above.

By and large I completely agree with your points Azazel. Definitely, 30K would be respectable for as you put it, a niche within a niche. I am a definite RBG "fan". I love the models a lot more than anything else currently on the market, but I am definitely alone of my RL wargaming buddies in being willing to spend a lot on them. My wargaming friends are all Warmachine players and they have all admired the technical skill of the sculpting, but won't buy anything that isn't usable in their game. To me, this is supporting great art. To most people, it's got to have a gaming use before it's an acceptable purchase.

Like all fans, I guess I'm just sad that not everyone shares my enthusiasm. It would probably be a bit much for one person to cope with if bajillions of people did love this stuff enough to throw lots of money at it.

I am also a fairly big fan of GW LOTR. When you start painting and modelling with stuff in a proper scale, it's hard to go back to the exaggerated proportions of PP or GW. Mantic got a lot of points from me in this regard until recently, and I am very disappointed by the abandonment of a true 28mm scale with their newer releases.

The previous KS must be infuriating for everyone who is still waiting. So unfortunate that things came out like this.

Yeah, I'll buy great figures for the sake of them being great, but I like to be able to essentially "fool myself" with some form of gaming justification in order to make myself buy them. (Hence the pile of Dwarves, elves and nordic-looking RBG figures I already have). The exception is bigger display-type models, but the RBG orcs aren't quite in that category for me.

I went in on KS1 essentially to support Tre, but there's quite a few figures in that pile I'm not sure what to do with as well. I still haven't QAed them properly, actually - though my wife and I have worn our t-shirts a few times. (Are the T-shirts an add-on this time?) This year I've cut my work hours and have a mortgage to pay for, so I have substantially less money to spend on stuff just because it looks shiny or because I want to support X, Y or Z, so I'm not in on this one yet and already have a pile of unpainted RBG stuff. Which makes finding uses for the models besides "something cool to paint" even more important...

I suspect there are a couple of reasons for the way he's handling the stretches

Firstly in response to what backers (& others) are saying/asking for

Second because this is his line of minis, for his game universe he'll be more dependant on inspiration to get the sculpting juices flowing.

Unlike a sculptor for hire who will make what they are asked for but simply produce a less good mini if they are uninspired, Tre would not want any less than perfection for HIS gameworld,

so If he's not inspired by a possibility when it comes time to pick the next stretch he'll switch to one he prefers (at the time)

All good points, and it's very important to be able to change tacks as needed, but it's also very important to keep in mind whatever is promised initially. Putting together a KS with promises of new Dwarves or whatever means that pure inspiration needs to be tempered with the expectations/obligations that you created.

Otherwise you end up with Avatars of War.

Update #9 mentions "A t-shirt design ( which I think is going to be an EPIC kind of awesome )." which I'm really looking forward to.

I agree RBG minis were not specifically made to be used in WHFB but I personally don't see the problem with size and style differences. My cool black orc regiment consists of these mean pig nosed guys, you like them too, right? And my squighoppers ran out of squigs and ride on wolves instead. Same for helsvakt in/as chaos warriors army. But maybe I'm just too tolerant, I actually don't mind when people proxy with empty bases.

Well, I don't mind what other people do, but I have a personal aesthetic consistency that I like to keep. Do you mean these orcs for your black orcs? I like them, but I don't have any. Aren't they just being sculpted for the first time now? I use newer, larger Nelson models for my Black Orcs. Or would, if I had them painted.

Tre should develop two types of fantasy figures. One heroic scale and one true-scale. Best of both worlds! Tre could still go ahead with his own vision for his own RBG world while he could also make a little larger figures.

 Azazelx wrote:
Well, I don't mind what other people do, but I have a personal aesthetic consistency that I like to keep. Do you mean these orcs for your black orcs? I like them, but I don't have any. Aren't they just being sculpted for the first time now? I use newer, larger Nelson models for my Black Orcs. Or would, if I had them painted.

I would use them as black orcs if I had an O&G army. Of course I don't have them yet, those were just the words I would use if I had to introduce them to someone if I had an O&G army. English is not my first language so sorry for the misunderstanding.

There is a lot of truth in the speculation being passed in here. I guess my goal of being as close with you guys as possible has worked out. And please Da Boss don;t think of me as anything other than Tre'. I am just a fan of fantasy table top gaming who happens to have found a way to make a living at it.

As for why I do what I do the way I do. It is true that i do sculpt for my own personal preference first, BUT I do try to keep in mind what people WANT from me as well. I DISPISE heroic proportions on minis. Anytime I have ever tried to sculpt that way I feel like I am sculpting bobble heads.

I accept that due to my personal preferences I will probably never attain the kind of success that certain other outfits do, but at the end of the day I am PROUD of what I do whether it is successful or not, and ( I hope at least ) 20 years in the future people will look back on what I am doing now and respect what I was trying to achieve. Money is great but, at the risk of being pretentious, Respect as an artist is worth more to me in the long run.

As long as I am able to afford to continue doing what I do and not have to live like a pauper ( one day Oh please please! ) and my work can continue to fascinate and inspire I will be happy and I will hold my head up.

Teh original reason I chose the style that I have developed is really just a misunderstanding of scale and how people judge quality. The first set of figures I produced everyone said was too big ( ironically they were heroic scale ! ) and I read everywhere people complaining about silly proportions and less than spectacular sculpting. I also read endless adulation for Tom Meier's work and Confrontation's aesthetics so I decided that I would produce a range of ( what I THOUGHT was ) " correctly " scaled 28 mm figures with finely sculpted details, dynamic posing, and true proportions. And hence the RBG style was born.

Then once that got going I refuse to abandon those whom have supported that effort by switching over to Heroic.








As to the KS......... I have speculated to no end ( beyond privacy ) about why certain campaign's are smashing successes and others are not. In Raging Heroes case....... well they certainly have aimed for the heart ( or is it the crotch ) of the GW audience. The designs are GREAT, the models ( they are NOT sculpts ) are very well made as well. They set up a FANTASTIC presentation. They really got it all right. I have a great deal of respect for that.

It is galling though that presentation equates to greater value than actual product.

My current KS on the other hand...... yeh I wish it were doing better but I really did not expect it to do much better than it is. But that is OK I will use the opportunity to repair my reputation as best as possible and then come back again with a more ambitious plan / project. The back catalogue was intended to help pay for in house casting set-up ( which it really does not look like that will happen now ) so I do not want to continue to devalue the product line any further than I already have.

If this one does not grow much more than it already has that is OK with me. It just means I can repair my rep faster and easier.

As for the way I have handled stretch goals...... Well it did not seem to me that people were nearly as excited about the Dvergr as they were the ORcs. I really expected a MUCH bigger bump from the Njorn, but apparently I misjudged that as well. I am confident that we will manage to squeeze in the Orc Hero and the Goblin WolfRiders, and MAYBE if we are lucky the Orc Spear Throwers, but that will be about it. And that is OK as well! It just leaves more potential for the next run.

T-Shirt! I have the first one and everyone loves it.

Put up the design and that may pull me in
I love RBG sculpts, but find myself not wanting to paint 'evil' figs for whatever reason.

SO maybe I'll wait to see more of the Vikings and Dwarves before I jump in.

 tre manor wrote:
The back catalogue was intended to help pay for in house casting set-up ( which it really does not look like that will happen now ) so I do not want to continue to devalue the product line any further than I already have.

I thought the $5000 goal of KS3 was the in-house production? With over $21k are you not able to afford to get the casting materials?

If you need more I'd set that as a stretch goal (like say, need 30k to get in house production) and then offer a free KS-exclusive mini to backers who have pledged $100+ at the 30k stretch or something. Doesn't have to be big and expensive, it could be a smaller model in size like the Keeper, or even maybe a limited edition goblin, so it doesn't break the bank by giving it out to the higher pledgers (and even offer it as a $10 add-on or something, everyone loved limited edition minis). But only when the 30k goal is reached.

I have to echo a lot of the sentiment already expressed here. I have little to no possible use for anything that I'm pledging for here. However, the sculpts are beautiful and should be a joy to paint. They're going to sit in my cabinet and look good, and that's good enough for me.

The tipping point for me, though, was ironically how small this KS is. RBG is just one dude working as hard as he can and making incredible figures. When I back a project like this, I feel like I'm actually helping a small business build itself up. With something like Raging Heroes, I'm just another drop in a bucket.

grefven wrote:
Tre should develop two types of fantasy figures. One heroic scale and one true-scale. Best of both worlds! Tre could still go ahead with his own vision for his own RBG world while he could also make a little larger figures.

That's essentially cannabalizing his own market though, at double sculpting work, double mold cost and even mroe loss of production quantity based discounts on casting. .

Well the $5000.00 first goal will pay for the production of the Goblin footmen, the $10,000 goal pays for the Dvergr footies, the $13,000.00 and $16,000 paid for the Orc footies and the $20,000.00 for the Njorn ( see the diminishing margins? ) and now $25,000 will pay for the Orc hero. There just is nto enough profit in there to pay for the equipment or materials let alone the facility. Unless there is a sudden surge in the last couple of days I doubt I will make enough to justify the expense of buying the equipment and materials.

Kickstarter would not allow me to run a campaign that was solely based on funding the in house production so I had to create new product. That product requires investment, and then I need to survive while I am making the product and packing it and shipping it. I will probably make enough to buy the Spincaster, btu won;t be able to afford enough metal to make the purchase worthwhile let alone the furnace to melt the metal and the facility to house it all.

Little by little I suppose.

As well as having great art, Raging Heroes certainly got a large boost by having figures that are usable as substitutes in the most played wargame around (40K), yes RH are planning their own game, but in reality that's not what these minis are going to be used for

Just look at the amount of times scale was asked about in the dakka/reaper threads (compared to GW or reaper minis)...

If folk were just interested in cool minis (or using them by themselves in whatever game) the scale wouldn't be such an issue

Your stuff is so well done and detailed that while it's perfect for RPGs some may feel they are 'too good' to use as rank and file in TTGs, so pledgers will want a 'few' of something, but not 10s or 100s

(ah, the curse of perfection)

 tre manor wrote:


Kickstarter would not allow me to run a campaign that was solely based on funding the in house production so I had to create new product.

Ugh, really? And junk like the stupid Penny Arcade BS "we need 15 bucks to buy a tape recorder to do a podcast" flies?

I wonder if you set it up like that, with similar BS pledge rewards (for 20 bucks I'll follow you on twitter for a minute, for 50 bucks I'll eat a sandwich in your honor and for 100 bucks I promise I wont hate you) and used existing stock minis as stretch goals (at 5k all of the $20 pledge rewards get 2 free figures) etc.

Or maybe after this one funds and is fulfilled hold a pre-sale on your website with the same goal. It seems like casting in house would save you a lot. And if those trollforged molds can take metal, you could at least salvage something from that.

 fulop78 wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
Well, I don't mind what other people do, but I have a personal aesthetic consistency that I like to keep. Do you mean these orcs for your black orcs? I like them, but I don't have any. Aren't they just being sculpted for the first time now? I use newer, larger Nelson models for my Black Orcs. Or would, if I had them painted.

I would use them as black orcs if I had an O&G army. Of course I don't have them yet, those were just the words I would use if I had to introduce them to someone if I had an O&G army. English is not my first language so sorry for the misunderstanding.

Ah, I see. Sorry, I misunderstood what you meant.

grefven wrote:
Tre should develop two types of fantasy figures. One heroic scale and one true-scale. Best of both worlds! Tre could still go ahead with his own vision for his own RBG world while he could also make a little larger figures.

Well, either that or figure out a range of creatures that are simply much larger (in truescale) than a normal human that just happen to line up approximately with another fantasy range's models. An example pulled out of the air, a race of giant ratmen that instead of being goblin-sized, happen to be 6-7' tall (just as feasable, if they're giant ratmen, right? Human-sized or slightly larger in RBG parlance works out to, say, the size of another brand's ratmen, except Tre's ratmen are finely detailed and sculpted, just like the ratmen Jes used to do. Substitute any appropriate fantasy trope (ie Kobolds/Lizardmen who aren't runty bastards) and you're golden. Tre's already going his own way with the orcs - there's no reason another fantasy trope race couldn't be different in size or scale - not everything is human sized.

Tre', funny that you mention Confrontation, as they make regular GW heroic scale look small.

On gearing up, you should definitely get the spincaster now if you can afford it. Little by little is how we buy our armies. Little by little is how I'm going through the house I just bought to make it my own. Little by little is how we save up for anything big that we buy. On further campaigns, I think Doug and Bossk Hogg have some pretty good ideas. Or be ...creative in what you put up on the KS page. Could some of the trollcast moulds work for metal? If yes, make the first stretch goal "retool the zombies to metal". Metal zombies would be a new RBG product. You'll still have to send people Zombies at a KS discount, but if the old mould work just happens to work for metal, then money previously "earmarked for tooling" can go to straight into setting up the home foundry...

 Azazelx wrote:
Yeah, I'll buy great figures for the sake of them being great, but I like to be able to essentially "fool myself" with some form of gaming justification in order to make myself buy them.

Ha, I'm very much the same I must admit! I buy minis for RPG purposes (and painting), but these days our pace is pretty much down to one night per month, so it not like we're flying through campaigns and new systems. Anyway, here are a few of my "justifications" when it comes to this KS:

Njorn - Conan RPG
Aenglish - Song of Ice and Fire RPG, Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay (as an alternative to the GW style)
Orcs, goblins, troll brothers, wraith knights - Not sure, but probably some old schoolish D&D version (Dungeon Crawl Classics, Adventurer Conquerer King). Or maybe WFRP.
Zombies - Very multipurpose really, but perhaps especially that Savage Worlds War of the Dead campaign I've been meaning to run for some time now...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 tre manor wrote:
I really expected a MUCH bigger bump from the Njorn, but apparently I misjudged that as well.

I really don't think the lack of a bump from when you released the Njorn WIP's necessarily means that people aren't interested in them. The way your KS is set up with all the options from your back catalogue (which I'm personally thrilled about) I think just means that a lot of people have pledged for a number of ranks they feel comfortable with without finalizing their specific choices. At least I know that's what I've done; I went in for ten ranks on the first day, and I'm still juggling back and forth on what to get. Wasn't planning on the orcs, but after seeing the sculpts I'm thinking I want two ranks of those. And the Njorn I'm definitely getting too, even though I didn't bump my pledge when you showed their WIP's.

That's a very good point. If I decide I can afford to go in on this, I'll just be going for "what I can afford" and then filling in the gaps with whatever I like best

25 dollar t shirt available now:

That sure looks good (as did the one from the first KS)

If only I wore T-shirts

come on everybody else, order one so I don't feel guilty for passing

Wow, I love that T-shirt. His line artist is top notch!

I think I just backed a Kickstarter for a T-shirt...

Really I was looking for some excuse to pledge something. I just don't happen to have a burning need for any of the minis in this particular pledge. I'm sure I can fit the wraiths or nether beast thing in to a Confrontation scenario though.

The shirt is awesome however.

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
If only I wore T-shirts

come on everybody else, order one so I don't feel guilty for passing

This is me as well. It certainly looks very nice, but I can't justify getting it for the price of an additional rank and a solo.

I did just bump my pledge for a few more solos though, so I think I've been a good boy.

nice shirt, Tre...
an homage to Odin, and the Hammer of Thor in one image...
that's how you turn it up to 11...

best of luck with this campaign, brother...

cheers
jah

 jah-joshua wrote:
nice shirt, Tre...
an homage to Odin, and the Hammer of Thor in one image...

And the runes evidently mean "Ve Den Svaga", which is "Woe to the Weak" in Swedish.

As a Swede, I'm nodding my head in grim approval.

Does anyone have a pic of the Red Box Elves in comparison with Thunderbolt Mountain Elves? I'm wondering if they might be compatible.

I think the Thunderbolt Elves are a little taller but the proportions are pretty much identical otherwise, I don;t have any of Tom's Elves though so it is difficult to say with certainty. I have held them side by side though and that was my recollection of the comparison.

Cheers Jah! Good to " hear " from you

Glad yo uguys liek the shirt. It was made by Dave Needham who handles all ( well most ) of my artwork needs. GREAT artist!

 tre manor wrote:


I think the Thunderbolt Elves are a little taller but the proportions are pretty much identical otherwise, I don;t have any of Tom's Elves though so it is difficult to say with certainty. I have held them side by side though and that was my recollection of the comparison.

Okay cool I'm trying to figure out my rank selection... and hey did you figure out if you could let me get 9x goblin archers as a rank (instead of 6xspear 3xarchers, since i already own 36 of your spearmen, i just need archers and footmen)

Egadz! Yes that will work! Sorry man. I totally forgot to update that! I will get on that now.

 tre manor wrote:
Egadz! Yes that will work! Sorry man. I totally forgot to update that! I will get on that now.

Thanks Tre! you're the best!

Latest update: Orc Brutes, then Wolf Riders, then Goblin Hero.

Hey everybody!

Ok after much humming and hawing over what to do next I have decided that the Orc Brutes will be first up. This set will include 4 new torso options each fitted for universally interchangeable heads and weapons. The weapons will be heavy weapons and will plug into a socket at the top of the leading hand. There will be 4 weapon options ( 2 swords, 1 axe and 1 mace ). These will use the same heads as the orc footmen and will also use the same legs options as the footmen. The set will of course include all options necessary to make 4 complete figures ( 4 torsos, 4 sets of legs, 1 sprue of heads, 1 sprue of weapons. ). This set will be made available as a ranks option upon reaching the $30,000.00 mark.

The Stretch Goal there after will be a set of 4 goblin wolf riders. This set will include 2 sets of 2 unique wolf options and 4 universally interchangeable goblin riders. The riders are planned to be totally separate from the wolf bodies and cast as single piece items in metal. This is subject to change as I get in to the actual process of sculpting the items. I am fairly confident though that I can make this plan work well. This set will be available as a paid for add-on for $25.00 per set when we hit the $36,000.00 mark

The Stretch Goal there after will be a Goblin Wolf rider Hero. This set will include the Alpha Wolf ManSlayer and the Goblin Chieftan BlackFangs. BlackFangs will be cast separately from ManSlayer and both will be metal cast. ManSlayer and BlackFangs will be available as a paid for add-on for $10.00 when we reach the $40,000.00 mark.

After that??? Who knows? More Orc legs options? Orc heads Options?? Orc Clan Chiefs ( armoured elites ) ? Maybe Black Fangs a foot? Or The Orc Spearthrowers, or perhaps Dvergr War Staff? We will have see when we get there!

For now here is a very quick and rough sketch of the first of the Orc Brute torso options.

Squeee for orc brutes with big two-handed weapons!!! Well, the wolf riders will most likely be very cool too, but now I'm foremost hoping we hit $30K.

Yeah, those will look great can't wait for a WIP of them and/or the orc hero.

This is the first time I've followed a KS the whole way through. I'm super tense now that we're in the last few days. I hope there's a significant bump because right now I'm glued to the pledge total
Not helpful considering I've piles of work to do!

I feel awful as I may have to drop my pledge :(

 Da Boss wrote:
This is the first time I've followed a KS the whole way through. I'm super tense now that we're in the last few days. I hope there's a significant bump because right now I'm glued to the pledge total
Not helpful considering I've piles of work to do!

I really hope it gets a bump! Unfortunately, just to be a small raincloud on the horizon here, I think there were 2 issues. The first is that I feel the momentum really got halted when the main pledge levels were locked, and remained so for a number of days. That happened on the 25th, I believe, and while there was still a lot of pledging the next day or two, it quickly dropped off once folks who were already paying attention had gotten their pledges up to snuff:




Maybe it's not totally cause-and-effect, but I feel it's really hard to attract new backers when you've locked up your top 3 pledge levels! It made the other pledge levels not have the sliding scale needed to entice people to pledge big. Granted, the pledge-per-backer is similar to Tre's bigger kickstarter, but he had a Lot more backers then whereas this is more his loyal / hardcore fanbase, I think.

Another part of that is due to this, which I'll copy from the first page:

redcapscorner wrote:
EDIT: Having done a little more research, I rescind some of my earlier comments. I'm not actually getting the backer updates for reasons not worth getting into, but I just read them and feel caught up. I'm bummed trollcast didn't work out, though. I had contributed to this Kickstarter on behalf of my store, to start carrying Red Box products, but with the switch back to metal, I'm going to have to pass on continued involvement. Tre, if you want a retailer's input, metal minis don't sell to roleplayers (unless they were sculpted in the 80s), and they're honestly a pretty hard sell to wargamers too if you're trying to get them to play your game system. Your fantasy metal mini customer is likely one of the following:

1) a second edition D&D grognard, who more often than not likes his minis like he likes his rules: poorly designed and badly outdated.
2) a wargamer who is disenchanted by GW (easy to find), but hasn't found what he or she's looking for in Hordes or Malifaux (much harder to find) AND who views modeling as a secondary concern to gameplay (which is even harder to find, because let's face it: the people who are more into good rules than hobby potential left GW for one of the aforementioned years ago).

Reaper's making a hard dive into plastic because it outsells their metal 5:1, and hell, I don't even carry metal Reaper anymore except the Pathfinder-branded stuff. It just doesn't sell. Unless you continue with plastics, I worry you're just going to struggle to find your market, which is a shame because you're a phenomenal sculptor and clearly a deeply committed and passionate guy. I honestly contribute the success of your first Kickstarter in large part to your loudly switching to plastic at around the same time Reaper was already dragging thousands of roleplayers to Kickstarter looking for minis.

This is all just food for thought. I know you have a great base of deeply committed customers, and if this were a hobby for you, I'd stay quiet on this, but hearing that you're switching back to metal is setting off all the same alarms for me that would be sounding if someone told me they wanted to open a video rental place. Don't do it, Tre!!

I have a feeling that this is also true of the Imbrian Arts kickstarter, despite the quality of both Tre and Jody's work, people got excited and pledged BIG due to the possibility of resin/plastic. People just aren't as interested in metal as much anymore.

I know there are other exceptions to this, most recently this kickstarter, which almost crossed 100K and I believe is all-metal:
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/centerstageminis/tome-of-horrors-complete-28mm-heroic-scale-miniatu

But there's a huge amount of things on offer there. Personally, the sculpts didn't appeal to me and I heartily support both Tre and Jody as true artists. But from a business standpoint, I think resin would be a lot more lucrative than metal. Unless Tre plans to run 20-30K kickstarters every half year or so, I'm not sure that this is the way to be going, personally.

Everybody wants plastic, of course, and nobody can have it. But I figured these were things worth considering and discussing . I think the value is pretty great on some of the ranks here, especially for metal minis, but it's going to become a harder and harder sell in the future, rather than an easier one.

The current RBG catalogue would not transition to plastic. If Plastic is truly the only way forward then RBG as it is now will be left behind. I hate to say it but it is the truth.

If you want figures the caliber of what I offer in the Red Box Games line then it is metal or Resin. If I go the resin route then the prices must go considerably higher, and truth be told people barely notice when I practically GIVE RBG figures away. So trying to move into resin will be nothing but disaster. I attempted it with the HelsVakt KS campaign and we can see the result.

Many companies advertise these great high detail renders and resin masters claiming that the plastics will look just like these models but I have yet to see any of them actually deliver that level of quality, or even close in some cases. Until I see it for myself I will not take money from anyone based on product that I cannot actually deliver upon.


There is no plastic manufacturer, no method currently in existence that could mold the orcs and capture the levels of detail on those figures.

I suppose that I could be the real problem in this equation, but I feel obligated to continue to provide for the people who have so generously supported me over the years with RBG. I feel that to abandon the RBG style as I have defined it over the years for the sake of plastic manufacturing would be to abandon their expectations.

I truly do appreciate all the support I have been given thus far and I hope that I can continue to provide a true high quality product for an affordable price for years to come.

Well, most decently detailed plastic miniatures come in multi-part kits because of the limitations of the molding process.

I'm sure you would be forced to cut up your sculpts pretty extensively to get them suitable for injection mold tooling.

I've definitely never seen any single-piece injection molded miniatures with detail to rival an RBG sculpt, but I'm no expert...

 tre manor wrote:


Many companies advertise these great high detail renders and resin masters claiming that the plastics will look just like these models but I have yet to see any of them actually deliver that level of quality, or even close in some cases. Until I see it for myself I will not take money from anyone based on product that I cannot actually deliver upon.

My problem is they often DO look just like the renders. But that the renders were sculpted blown up to 50 times normal size, so when you get a 28mm figure, the deail is too weak, and parts are just to thin and unfeasible. Had it been a real sculpt, the impracticality of things like making a figures tiny wispy beard a separate piece would have been caught, or havign too faint detail would have been apparent to the sculptor. Thats my biggest beef with, for example, some of Wyrd's plastic sculpts. Even on your more true scale figures, you know to exaggerate some detail because it just wont stand out otherwise.

What about resin?

My problem is they often DO look just like the renders. But that the renders were sculpted blown up to 50 times normal size, so when you get a 28mm figure, the deail is too weak, and parts are just to thin and unfeasible. Had it been a real sculpt, the impracticality of things like making a figures tiny wispy beard a separate piece would have been caught, or havign too faint detail would have been apparent to the sculptor. Thats my biggest beef with, for example, some of Wyrd's plastic sculpts. Even on your more true scale figures, you know to exaggerate some detail because it just wont stand out otherwise.

Well that is mostly true but the dirty little secret of plastics manufacturing is that there is a threshold of detail that the bits are able to cut and that thresh hold is not sufficient to capture detail that can be captured by hand with traditional sculpting methods and rubber molding materials and methods. Then there is also the matter of Zero Draft. That means that the mold parts must release the casting without catching ANY part of the model. This means ZERO under cut. Under cut is what you are thinking of when you think of " detail ". So when you must reduce under cut to zero you essentially lose detail int eh process. Think of the difference the same way that there is a difference between Analog TV picture and High Delfiniton Digital imaging. Or the difference between the graphics of HALO to HALO 4. This also has a big impact on the curvature of the models as well. The pose is restricted by the necessity of zero draft and there fore to have a more dynamic pose you must also cut your model into multiple pieces.

Cutting RBG models up would not solve the problem. The facial features of the figures would just flat NOT carry over to the molds.

At the end of the day the fact remains though that either, one; the audience does not really care about detail and quality, or two; the audience does not KNOW that they care about detail and quality until they actually see the difference first hand. The problem with number 2 is that by the time the audience DOES see the difference it is too late, their money is already spent and the company that DID produce quality has either moved on to less rigid standards for the sake of being able to compete or has just decided the effort is not rewarded well enough to be worth while anymore. Number one is only a problem if a provider is unwilling or otherwise unable to make the transition to lesser quality.

Love these kinds of frank posts about the realities of the industry, very informative.

And for me, stating stuff like this clearly is some of the best PR you can do, Tre. I appreciate honesty and straightforwardness.

It does seem like resin or something like restic will eventually be very common for minis, but it seems there are many kinks to be worked out of the process before it is reliable.

I think rules would help. I love a lot of RBG stuff - but scale differences mean I can't really use it for anything else.

I'm not a big collector of stuff "just to have" - but start making factions of things with clearly designed leaders/elites/grunts and I'm a sucker. (Even though, no, I never actually play anything, ever)

You've got some of the best sculpts in the business, your minis are pretty darn cheap. Get some decent Mordheim-like rules for war bands of 10ish minis, and some nice, interesting fluff and boom, success!

OK, it's probably not as easy as that sounds. But I still think it's a good path to take.

The miniatures scale well with the LOTR miniatures produce by GW, and many fit with the LOTR range pretty well theme wise. That game utilises small warbands with heroes so it seems like a good fit if you want rules to use while waiting for Tre to publish his own.
Song of Blades and Heroes is also a ruleset that is all about the fantasy warbands and it is usable with this scale.

I've also been thinking that there is potential to run Dungeons and Dragons as a sort of "wargame" where one player runs a party of adventurers and the other runs a "list" of monsters and adversaries. Kinda like D'n'D minis but probably just using the full game rules of 4th edition (which is a surprisingly good miniatures game).

 Da Boss wrote:
The miniatures scale well with the LOTR miniatures produce by GW, and many fit with the LOTR range pretty well theme wise. That game utilises small warbands with heroes so it seems like a good fit if you want rules to use while waiting for Tre to publish his own.
Song of Blades and Heroes is also a ruleset that is all about the fantasy warbands and it is usable with this scale.

I was about to suggest both of these rulsets. Additionally, Fanticide is a warband/skirmish sized game explicitly designed to work with whatever is in your collection. It also has a hell of an author's pedigree.

I've got plenty of money burning a hole in my pocket after some enforced sobriety for the last fortnight..

feth it, I'll have a sack of gobbos.

Great sculpts by the way...

I was in a store last night looking at the single sprue injection molded characters GW made... they're quite nice. I bought an OOP confrontation blister while I was there (metal). The detail is amazing, but obviously... they went out of business! For many reasons...

But seeing yourself or the Rackham/Confrontation sculptors, or Jody of Imbrian arts, make the necessary adjustments to have your art cast in other mediums would be great, imo.

Hindsight is 20/20, but seeing the awesome models I got from KS1, it's obvious some parts aren't well suited to trollcast. The material is amazing- for what it is. But it's not metal, and some sacrifices must be made.

If anything similar is tried in the future, that must be kept in mind, imo. Maybe your weapons will always have to be metal, if you want them hair thin like they are now . But for many hobbyists, those are unusable because they're so likely to bend/break.

Personally, I want the highest quality I can, but it's not the only consideration. With something like those Orcs, or of course the goblins, plastic/plesin/restic would be a huge draw. But compromises would have to be made.

Just some thoughts thanks for the thorough reply. Just thinking it through now, if small metal KS's is RBG's path, or something more radical. Dreamforge's metal KS got, what, 5K? Their plastic one got 200K. Here, it was only an 80K / 25K difference, but just thinking about the viability for the future.

So anxious to see where this kickstarter ends. We're frustratingly close to 25k and the orc leader, but now I'm worried that we won't reach it. As much as I'd hate to do it, I'd have to lower my pledge if that was the case.

I will be putting in a bit more once I see if those other two figs will be added to the possible back catalogue options. I'll be adding a bit more anyway.

I'm really excited for this one. I wasn't a part of tre's 1st or 2nd KSs just because they offers didn't appeal to me, but everything I've seen in this campaign is talking to me. As I said in the KS comments, I don't even like orcs and never have but tre's take on them has really made me excited about orcs for the first time.

 Guildsman wrote:
So anxious to see where this kickstarter ends. We're frustratingly close to 25k and the orc leader, but now I'm worried that we won't reach it. As much as I'd hate to do it, I'd have to lower my pledge if that was the case.

Well, the orc hero is only $600 away now, so I can virtually guarantee you we'll reach him. I absolutely think we've got a good shot at the orc brutes too (there's always some extra action in the last two days). Only 62 hours to go!


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greywulf wrote:
I will be putting in a bit more once I see if those other two figs will be added to the possible back catalogue options. I'll be adding a bit more anyway.

I think Tre said that if it's a $8.99 mini available in his web store it's also available through the KS (but I also hope he gets the images up there so everyone can see that). Bolverk the Bold looks like another badass Njorn I won't be able to pass on, and I'm eyeing Black Armand too. Which were the ones you were interested in?

Oh yes, no doubt the Orc hero will be in soon. The orc brutes though ... we'll see, I do hope but if we are not getting them then I'll just have me another rank of orc footmen.

I hope we get to the Brutes at least. Shame about the Wolf Riders if we don't make it. 2 Kickstarters waiting for those, now!
Does anyone know what exchange rate Amazon uses for the transaction? I was trying to check it out but I got a bit lost on the website. I have 238 euro on my prepaid creditcard and I want to up my pledge to possibly 256 dollars from the current 231. Looking at Google's exchange rate, I shoudl be fine but I'm a little worried I'll over shoot my limit if Amazon is significantly different.

 Trodax wrote:
Which were the ones you were interested in?

Kyrie Brighthelm



& Berochlene



These 2 in particular are must haves for me... and tre said they're going up, so yay!

I added $56 and that just might not be enough for all the others that I'm pondering, though.

Had to drop my pledge, which sucks. Moving in a few weeks but will paying double rent for a month and a half, so all my free funds have just disappeared til August. I _will_ be buying a bunch of figs as soon as they become available in Tre's webstore.

No need to qualify Doug. You have been a big supporter and sometimes life just gets int he way. Thank you sincerely for supporting me and my efforts where you were able.

Im a pledger from your furst campaign who is still waiting for my stuff, patiently I might add. Would ut be possibly to get sone orcs instead of the bits that are still to be cast?

I'd happily buy extra from the KS1 if it was possible (which it should be seeing how not everything is cast yet!). But unfortunately, Tre hasn't answered on the mails. :/ It's a shame, because a few of the HelsVakt are awesome.

Have I not responded to questions from you Grefven? Man I am sorry. Can you resend them or are they through the KS system?

Minsk, thanks for your patience. as to your question....... Well that is a thought I will have to think over. The metal for the ORcs is going to be more costly than most of the items from TF and TF is so close to delivering on everything now. It is just a shame that they could not have delivered on everything before the close of this KS. There are however more than 100 packages going out today and tomorrow though.

 tre manor wrote:
No need to qualify Doug. You have been a big supporter and sometimes life just gets int he way. Thank you sincerely for supporting me and my efforts where you were able.

Oh, I'll definitely be buying a bunch when August rolls around, so be sure to set aside a pile of gobbo archers, footmen, and wolfriders for me.

Orc hero is in!

I am dead excited. Hoping we also hit the brutes before the end! Heading to my girlfriends place now so less internet over the weekend, but I have high hopes!

Yay for the orc hero!!! I do think we're gonna get the brutes now too...

Tre has added a bunch of minis from his back catalogue that were previously missing, including a bunch of "tinies" which are only $4 apiece (goblin heroes, individual Dvergr, some Shirelings). So many options here!

Less than 2000 to the Orc Brutes now! I've pushed my pledge up as far as I think I can afford. If the Wolf Riders make it I may have to push it up again, a little bit, and drop a rank of footmen though. At this stage I only see that happening if one of the DOM pledges is actually going forward though. I'm not experienced with kickstarters!

I'm not seeing an option in the reward selection for adding a solo figure. I want to make a basic pledge and add enough to it to order a back-catalogue hero - as it says shipping costs are handled seperately, I assume I just make this pledge and specify the model i want and pay for shipping later?

 A Kvlt Ghost wrote:
I'm not seeing an option in the reward selection for adding a solo figure. I want to make a basic pledge and add enough to it to order a back-catalogue hero - as it says shipping costs are handled seperately, I assume I just make this pledge and specify the model i want and pay for shipping later?

Yes, choose your pledge level - then in the box add the cost of the added object to that. (Say a $25 pledge level, and a $7 add-on - pledge $32). And no shipping on this KS (which is a bit weird) but apparently that will be a separate charge later, when your order is ready to ship.

Damn, this KS is turning out to be a real wallet buster for me. There were a bunch of those newly available back catalogue add-ons that were just too awesome to pass on (Bolverk, Christia, Kyrie, Madlenka and Svjanna, I'm thinking). After seeing some painted versions of the Netherbeast and the Infernal horrors, I also needed to squeeze another rank into the budget and rejig my other selections to get these in.

The orc brutes are now actually only $65 away, so basically they're in the bag. Then it's 18 hours left to raise $6,000 to unlock the wolf riders. Can it be done?!


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And now the orc brutes are in!!! Very, very nice!!!

Orc Brutes! Well, dang, quite a nice surge this has gotten. Very glad those made it in

10 hours to go. <$5k to unlocking the wolf riders (which would, quite possibly be a boost enough to unlock the wolf rider hero).

It'll be interesting to see how it winds up!

I just opened up a Tio ($180), should be available through "Manage your pledge".

I have actually already put down $25 for the wolf riders. But if we don't get there I'll pick up a second set of Orcs and Dogsbane ($24), which I'll be totally find with as well honestly. It would be really fun for Tre and Red Box to get those wolf riders out there, though, so here's hoping! It's still possibly, but it's going to be tough! Up those pledges if you can!

We're still climbing steadily towards the Wolfriders but it'll be interesting to see if we make it or not- currently 3.5K off.
I can't afford to put any more into this project, so I'm just a spectator now!

I wish I could jump in, but $25 for 4 figures (a rank of the orcs) is just too pricey for me atm, as I'd have to go for one of the lower levels this time... I will be interested in picking them up later, though.

If I wanted all of the orcs, it's still over $6 per figure (2 ranks + the hero)... so, unfortunately I'm just watching this one. I do hope it clears the wolf riders, but also that folks are keeping in mind the size of the mounts if they pledge for those, as I posted the pics earlier.

grefven- It's set to disappear as soon as you drop that pledge level, apparently... that one has been steadily decreasing in number, while the single $155 and $170 pledgers have been sticking it out (as they should, imo).

Only around $2,000 short of the wolf riders now... I'm starting to think we're going to actually make it!

Wolf Riders will unlock at $35,000.00 due to my mis-judgement of the timing of the close out. Right now we are stood at $34,478.00, that means only $522.00 to go to get these guys in! LET"S DO THIS!!!!

The Goblin Wolf Riders have funded

so anybody waiting for that add your $25 (remember they are an add on rather than a rank)

Congratulations to Tre!

nice one, Tre...
congrats...
have a beer, and then get back to work!!! hahahahaha

cheers
jah

Well done Tre,

Here's hoping Tre makes a tidy bit on this and we are all happy eith our gorgeous miniatures!

That was a fun ending, I was hoping for a bump that might get us the wolf riders, but wasn't expecting one that threw us almost all the way to $40K! Congrats Tre!

GREAT JOB TRE! We got to the Wolf Riders! Congratulations and I can't wait to see the new models!

Since the wolf riders were at 35K (instead of 36K) it would've been nice to have the hero at 39K, but still, a fantastic ending to a very successful campaign. Great job, Tre!

Edit: From the comments, I see at least half a dozen people posting that they'd added in $10 for the wolf rider hero, to help get it in. Since the ending was so close, might be a nice thing to just call "completed"... totally up to Tre, of course, but it'd net a lot of goodwill and will be a popular seller later, too (in fact, I'd be interested in several, I just have to wait and make sure the size is right).

Extremely gutted I missed out on this kickstarter, it looked fantastic and I just kept forgetting to pledge, or putting it off until tomorrow.

Can't wait to get these figures of general release.

Yea, it would be nice if Tre could do the Wolf Rider hero anyway. I have been super busy and I missed how close we got to the hero. I upped my pledge by 50 for a couple to shirts. I would have done more if I had seen how close it got to $40,000.

Still though, it was a nice campaign with some really cool models. I hope that Tre is able to raise enough out of this to get his spin casting equipment.

Afaik, he's not doing equipment, just paying for casting and then paying himself. I really hope this gives him the opportunity to re-stock the store, though, so he's not dependent on kickstarter revenue for the most part.

Matty got on it. Great effort and splendid minis.
My mityer in law is getting pissed with the amount of mail I'm having sent to her house....

Thanks Guys! I was otu of pocket for the last few hours, long story int he update but I just wanted to pop in here to let you guys knwo if you did not already that the Wolf Rider HEro is in. That was one I REALLY wanted to do anyway so it is as much a treat for me as it is for you guys.

Cheers Y'all it woudl not hav ehappened without you.

Tre'

P.S. I will be pricing the equipment and the metal. Even if I lack the funds to set up the way I need to I CAN go ahead and get started on the set-up and just take it a little at a time. The biggest expense is the facility and that is the hard part but the machine and metal are things I think I CAN do with the money made on this campaign.

Really glad this campaign will help you that far along for the business Tre. Glad to have been a contributor.

Wow, both of the below are great news! Dag-nabit, if I'd known that wolf hero was going to make it in...!

 tre manor wrote:

Thanks Guys! I was otu of pocket for the last few hours, long story int he update but I just wanted to pop in here to let you guys knwo if you did not already that the Wolf Rider HEro is in. That was one I REALLY wanted to do anyway so it is as much a treat for me as it is for you guys.

Cheers Y'all it woudl not hav ehappened without you.

Tre'

P.S. I will be pricing the equipment and the metal. Even if I lack the funds to set up the way I need to I CAN go ahead and get started on the set-up and just take it a little at a time. The biggest expense is the facility and that is the hard part but the machine and metal are things I think I CAN do with the money made on this campaign.

I hope you order extra stock of things like the orcs / wolf riders / heroes that are being sculpted for the first time in this campaign, they will be Very popular items in your store... and I'll likely be first in line as soon as I can get someone to take a pic of 'em next to a ruler.

If you're able to get some metal casting equipment from this, that would be great, although it could be worth just using the funds to stock up the store a Lot, and continue to use casting services. Regardless, I'm very happy about the way it turned out

Edit- You might want to post in the main comments section that the wolf rider hero is in, too, as the last comment is asking about it there (or any other backer could post that, too). Awesome that you're unlocking it... what a great ending this campaign had and a very well-rounded amount of unlocked stretches.

Congrats, glad this went as well as it did and glad I could contribute. Good luck with the upcoming work!