Ok, if every single loyalist space marine chapter gathered all its members, and every imperial guard regiment was combined, who would win in a fight?
This huge war would be limited to the IG only using actual IG units, with no support from the navy, except for valkyries and vendettas. They would also have the support of all the tank, heavy weapon, and infantry regiments known. So basically, the guard would get everything in the IG codex, on a scale to match how many of them there are.
The Space Marines would get each member from every known loyalist chapter, including the uncounted 10,000+ each Black Templars and Space Wolves, they would also get all blood angels allies and Legion of the Damned support. The SM would get terminators, all their ground tanks, and thunderhawks, stormravens, and all other SM aircraft.
Just to make it clear, this war would take place on one HUGE planet, and there would be no space cruisers, only light air support and mostly ground forces.
So lets get to it, all Space Marines, VS all Imperial Guard.
IG wins. There is only one space marine for every planet in the Imperium, but millions of Guardsmen for one planet is also the case. In this scenario, Attrition is the name of the game, which is coincidently the IGs calling card.
Space Marines thrive in Lightning fast alpha strikes that demolish the enemy before they can get a proper resistance. This scenario puts the Space Marines outside their intended environment, which also bodes poorly for them.
1 million vs. 100s of billions supported by baneblades, shadowswords and massive artillery guns. Not to mention manticores and executioners. The guard has so much long ranged the Space Marines would get devasted before they saw a single guardsman. And, without support from their space craft, the Space Marines would have to footslog or ride in weak transports to the guard lines. When they got there they would be lit up by Plasma Guns, Melta Guns, Lascannons by the millions. The Guard has more Plasma Guns than the Space Marines have Space Marines. Think about that. n
This is no contest. IG would win hands down. There isn't enough plot armor in the collective might of codex writers, IA writers, and BL writers to save the Space Marines this time around.
However, that part is irrelevant. Imperial Guard would outnumber the Space Marines by a ridiculous amount. The Space Marines' only hope was that there'd be so many Guardsmen that they'd crush eachother to death trying to stack too deep.
Space marines, but only because it's one MASSIVE planet .
A planet capable of housing the entire imperial guard + space marine chapters would be of incredible size (if earth like). There simply wouldn't be enough room for all the tanks, materiel, men, women, etc. to fit on the thing. It's size would likely make it incapable of being earth like, turning it into a death world. Not the "everything wants to kill you" type, the "step out here without full gear and you die," type. For this reason the guard would likely die due to vacuum, ridiculous pressure, etc. before the battle began.
Nah, just give them the hazardous enviroment masks and they are good to go. Pressure? Pssh ogryns and ratlings were BORN in various pressures of worlds thus they alone would probably at least equal if not outnumber the spacemarines by themselves! Not to mention all the other abhuman regiments and worlds beside them. (Thinking chapter approved from a while ago).
That's what I foresee in this battle. Either in a near vacuum you have SM and Abhumans going at it like crazy, moving amid a see of dead guardsmen; or it's a gas giant, everyone falls into the center and dies, except for a few hundred terminators, who now have to sit there til they starve because I doubt ships can reliably retrieve them.
That's what I foresee in this battle. Either in a near vacuum you have SM and Abhumans going at it like crazy, moving amid a see of dead guardsmen; or it's a gas giant, everyone falls into the center and dies, except for a few hundred terminators, who now have to sit there til they starve because I doubt ships can reliably retrieve them.
But really, I think the OP is saying like if the Earth was blown up really large. Or if the Africa plains were blown up enough to make it proportionate in war-terms to the size of the opposing forces.
EDIT: Besides, why would the guardsmen be there if they knew it was hazardous? They would just sit out of it, let the abhumans work and if any space marines survive, they will find a planet that will sustain some troops.
I don't think you could get a planet big enough to support the entire Imperial Guard plus weapons and vehicles. No contest though, as awesome as Space Marines are in the face of extreme adversary, they'd be utterly annihilated by the humble Guard.
The 1,000 Chief Librarians of each chapter destroy armies of Imperial Guardsmen on every battlefield they walk.
I know of no Primaris Psyker that can match the sheer psychic butthurt of the Space Marines. Every Librarian channeling their powers at once would likely raze the entire planet to dust.
The 1,000 Chief Librarians of each chapter destroy armies of Imperial Guardsmen on every battlefield they walk.
I know of no Primaris Psyker that can match the sheer psychic butthurt of the Space Marines. Every Librarian channeling their powers at once would likely raze the entire planet to dust.
"40 k" Realistically? Guard. They will have more super-heavies than there would be space marines on the planet. Then think of all the Leman Russ tanks. The Basilisks. The Marines are screwed.
Realistically realistically? Marines would give the guard the middle finger, knowing they are going to lose and blow the core from the planet with some ancient DAoT bomb and fly away on their thawks. Then watch as the imperium collapses and they all get mindfethed by chaos.
More likely? guard rape up the marines with arty fire from the next continent while marines try to swim over to them only to br raped by floating chimeras.
Why? Because the IG is *entirely* a terrestrially-based force. They have massive amounts of land-destroying power and aeronautic might...
... but they ain't got jack that can leave orbit.
The Space Marines? The Space Marines do.
So you have 100s of billions of Guardsmen, tanks, artillery, Valkyries, Basilisks, Chimera, Hellhounds, Baneblades, Shadowswords, all this stuff sitting on the ground, all primed for a knock-down, drag-out battle to end all battles.
And then the SM Strike Cruiser rolls out of the Warp and proceeds to glass the planet, because the IG is not the IN.
Then it's not really SM vs IG then, is it? A Strike Cruiser or a Battle Barge is a core component to a Chapter's arsenal.
This is like the previous "Daemons vs IoM" where Daemons were rendered as non-immortal.
Of course, you can also carry a bomb of the Life-Eater Virus on a Thunderhawk so... there it goes. SM win by default, it's their munition that destroys the planet.
Hashbeth wrote: it's a gas giant, everyone falls into the center and dies, except for a few hundred terminators, who now have to sit there til they starve because I doubt ships can reliably retrieve them.
Actually if you fell into a gas giant, you wouldn't stay in the middle, you'd be propelled out the other side only to be drawn back in again, and propelled the other way. All until you ran out of momentum, but that's dependent on the gas giant and its "atmospheric" composition.
You do realize this includes Commissar Cain right??? IG Can't lose! No matter how hard Cain tries to get away, he will end up in the marine command centre with 20 demo charges...just 'cause he can!
Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't there specific titan legions that are actually apart of the Imperial Guard? That would make things rather one sided...
Endriu Death Coy wrote: That's not realistic then. I can see the guard getting no orbital as the navy is a separate force, but the Marines orbital is integral
No, in any large invasion the Guards get more ship support then the SM, the navy is a fair size larger. If the Marines have orbital, so do the Guard. The OP took it out.
Also, On spykers...nope IG has 10'000 times more psykers , at lest. they may be weaker one on one...but they simply out power the SM psykers as a group many times over.
I think that the SM would win. First of the IG player would have a lot of clutter on his side of the table, and every time he moves a guy he'll knock another one over and snap of a limb, while some would ignore this and continue playing, but the IG player is one of those people who can't stand broken models on the board, so soon the IG's army would slowly fall apart. I assure you this is true.
If space marine librarians are allowed to the fight then I vote space marines. Unless the guard somehow manages to bring some alpha level psyker that manages to kill the marines without blowing up the entire planet.
Quality over quantity. The space marines have better generals, better tactics, better equipment. They are almost all battle hardened by centuries of service. This isn't gun line warfare here...the marines wouldn't just stand still and go headlong into the guard lines if they were so vastly outnumbered,
This is all assuming adequate supplies for the astartes
Endriu Death Coy wrote: That's not realistic then. I can see the guard getting no orbital as the navy is a separate force, but the Marines orbital is integral
Automatically Appended Next Post: But the Librarians would screw the Guard over big time anyway, so bye bye guard.
There are billions to trillions of Guard. They are literally uncountable in size.
So I highly doubt even the few thousand Librarians could /really/ affect them before an actual rain of artillery fire reduces their hemisphere to dust.
But yeah, I also have to agree with Bludbaff, there is really no contest.
Hunterindarkness wrote: Also, On spykers...nope IG has 10'000 times more psykers , at lest. they may be weaker one on one...but they simply out power the SM psykers as a group many times over.
What do you base this on?
We don't know how many Sanctioned Psykers the Imperial Guard have, and almost all are far less than a Librarian.
Hunterindarkness wrote: Also, On spykers...nope IG has 10'000 times more psykers , at lest. they may be weaker one on one...but they simply out power the SM psykers as a group many times over.
What do you base this on?
We don't know how many Sanctioned Psykers the Imperial Guard have, and almost all are far less than a Librarian.
They are rare, like Vanquishers and Plasma Guns. Even if one in 100,000 Imperial Guard regiments had one.... we are talking about at least a million of them, probably a lot more. I don't think you understand just how much firepower the entire Imperial Guard can muster. It's enough to make all those chief librarians look insignificant.
Marines would be squished like a bug. No drop pods, no deep striking terminators, no orbital bombardments, outnumbered by millions to one. The guard might take some casualties, but when you have trillions upon trillions of guard, the 10-100 million guardsmen you would lose taking out the marines is a small price to pay.
On a more realistic note though. the single thing that makes the space marines so effective is that they have their own dedicated fleet so they can redeploy their entire strength very easily. The imperial guard, due to a small thing called the Horus Heresy have to wait for the imperial navy, who are never on time.
Even if the space marines had their ships, there are these things caled planetary defences, and of course, the imperial navy. and while the imperial navy might not outnumber the space marine fleet quite so steeply as the guard outnumber the marines. you are still looking at the prospect of a very short, one sided battle that sees the space marines annihilated.
They are rare, like Vanquishers and Plasma Guns. Even if one in 100,000 Imperial Guard regiments had one.... we are talking about at least a million of them, probably a lot more. I don't think you understand just how much firepower the entire Imperial Guard can muster. It's enough to make all those chief librarians look insignificant.
I don't think you understand how powerful a Kine Shield powered by every Chief Librarian in existence would be.
The routine Thousand Sons-powered shield over Tizca withstood a full Space Wolf orbital bombardment.
Terrestrial weaponry does not quite match up to that.
Studio Fluff puts Marines at a 10-1 ratio. Mainly due to their surgical nature. Take that away and it becomes a conventional war, and which organization does the IoM use for conventional warfare? The Imperial Fething Guard. Now back to that 10-1, that is the offical ratio, but lets make it bigger, every the marines are worth 100-1. Now total marines is about a million. (1.000x1.000= 1.000.000) Which mean that the Marines kill 100 Million guardsman. Pretty high number right? Not for the guard, you may be killed 0.01% of the total available guardsmen. That is assuming that the marines are 1. Movie Marines, and 2. Able to deep strike and use drop pods.
TLR Space Marines kill 0.01% of the Guardsmen and then get slaughtered.
They are rare, like Vanquishers and Plasma Guns. Even if one in 100,000 Imperial Guard regiments had one.... we are talking about at least a million of them, probably a lot more. I don't think you understand just how much firepower the entire Imperial Guard can muster. It's enough to make all those chief librarians look insignificant.
I don't think you understand how powerful a Kine Shield powered by every Chief Librarian in existence would be.
The routine Thousand Sons-powered shield over Tizca withstood a full Space Wolf orbital bombardment.
Terrestrial weaponry does not quite match up to that.
Okay, so, if 1000 chief librarians is better than the Imperial Guard in it's entirety why don't they forgoe the guard and astartes and just train an army of chief librarian? Why don't they gather 100,000 Chief Librarians and have them exterminate the Tau and the Orks? Hell, using all those Librarians we'd be safe from the Tyranids too! Trillions of Lifeforms? No problem! A Kine Shield would mean Keine Problem!
Because psykers are incredibly rare, psykers with that potential are even more rare, psykers of that potential who can become Marines are rarer still, and even if all those prequisites are met, it takes many years of battle experience to reach that level.
Kine shields also would not keep the Orks or Tyranids from physically entering.
Also, this being a single planet makes the concentration of Librarians far more potent.
If I remember right. there are tank shells and artillary shells ment to scramble the brains of psykers. I think either the entire warhead has some psyker crystal in it or some sort of systems that severly interfere with psyker energy.
They are given on special notice and are extreamly rare. but only to select units. but I would imagine in a battle of such scale, they would say feth it all and see the librarian and load all rounds and turn the libriarians brains to jelly with a single earth shattering salvo.
plus "rare" in the IG means theres a couple million plus of them. Baneblades may be "rare" but there are more Baneblades then there are Space Marines.
If we allow orbital weaponry for the Space Marines, I have a question: Would the Guard have access to Surface to Orbit weaponry? Aren't Imperator Titans able to pull that duty?
There's a million guardsmen to every space marine, so unless every space marine in that army has a million bolter rounds and a million to one kill/death ratio, then those SMs are SCREWED, especially considering the superior armour that is available to the IG..
Arcsquad12 wrote: If we allow orbital weaponry for the Space Marines, I have a question: Would the Guard have access to Surface to Orbit weaponry? Aren't Imperator Titans able to pull that duty?
Only if it was already installed on the planet I would think but I could be wrong. If I recall correctly there's a passage somewhere that says Imperator Titans can trade fire with ships in orbit or some such, but they're unlikely to be capable of repelling Battle Barges and the like. Aside from that Imperator Titans belong to the Adeptus Mechanicus not the Imperial Guard.
Also I now keep on wondering how 100,000 Chief Librarians would indeed stack up against the Tau considering they have no Psychic defences.
Titans are not involved in this fight. I've figured out a more reasonable argument, SM can use all CODEX units. Only units from codex SM, BT, GK, BA, DA, and SW. They can have support by drop pods, but the battlecruisers in the sky can have no other role in the battle other than to launch drop pods and thunderhawks. (so basically the pods and ships come from nowhereness in the sky)
No forge world units are allowed, but the apocalypse units (for each seperate faction, no complete IOM units) can be used.
On the other hand, the Guard will get all the apocalypse units as well, but no navy battlecruisers or ships like that, only aircraft.
This is not a space battle and also no orbital bombardments can be shot, so no exterminatus.
We're just assuming this battle takes place on a never ending plain (maybe a chaos dimension), but anyhow, a planet so large it can hold the whole IG.
Also, in the black templar codex, it does say their numbers are have been counted and estimated past 10,000 and they do not adhere to the codex astartes.
Last but not least, lets not forget, the grey knights (and ghost knights too) and the legion of the damned are fighting in this battle.
There are around 1 million space marines, some chapters are over their established strength, some are under. thats 1 space marine per planet in the imperium. assuming that the imperial guard numbers 1 regiment per planet, which is vastly understating their strength, then they have 1 million regiments, which is, at 5000 men per regiment, a low ball figure of 5 billion guardsmen. lets say half are infantry regiments, thats a mere 2.5 billion guardsmen, meaning in infantry alone they have a numerical advantage of 2500:1 in infantry.
The imperial guard will also have tens of thousands of regiments of tanks, so certainly they have more Leman russ tanks than the marines have marines, and probably the guard have more superheavies than the marines have marines.
What the Space marines will be able to achieve is superior force concentration, with a fluffwise advantage of 10-100 times greater force concentration due to equipment, they will have the striking power of 10-100 million guardsmen, which is to say a marine will on average kill 10-100 guardsmen before he is himself killed. if we take the higher figure of 100, that means the space marines will kill 100 million guardsmen. which leaves the imperial guard with: 2.4 billion guardsmen, and the same proportion of their armoured strength, and artillery intact. or to put it bluntly:
Space marines suffer 100% casualties, imperial guard suffer 4% casualties.
Taking the marines vaunted air power into consideration, the imperial guard certainly has access to more than a million aircraft from the navy. has entire regiments (probably thousands of them) of hydra flak tanks, thats death to thunderhawks, and drop pods
Space marines have the force concentration to knock out isolated units, i would bet on a chapter versus an IG regiment. but in this scenario, each marine would have to take out a whole regiment to win the battle. Space marines dont have the numbers of men or material, or the ability to replace their losses fast enough to realistically threaten the imperial guard.
There is a reason the imperial guard is the main fighting force of the imperium, after all
I want to say that the IG would win, but it would be a close run. Teleporters such as terminators and drop pod dreads could kill artillery, and SM can thunderfire cannon spam. IG would only win through numbers
Void__Dragon wrote: Yeah but the Librarians could destroy millions of Imperial Guardsmen on their own, combining their power, they raze the planet to the ground.
I think you vastly overestimate the sheer power of a thousand Librarians compared to trillions of Guard and millions of tanks.
Millions of Guard on their own? That's just nuts. Not every Librarian is a Chief Librarian, and the odds that a single Psyker can kill a million men is before being shot is dang near impossible. They aren't gods.
Even if they combine their power, what are the odds that trillions of weaponry can't bring them down? Again, they aren't gods. They can do a lot of damage, but they can't do that much.
Plus, even if each Librarian could kill a million Guardsmen... there's still untold billions possible trillions left. And by the time he has finished with those guardsmen it'll be literally raining artillery shells on them.
You can say quality over quantity, but then I'd say you underestimate the quantity at hand. Vastly more guard than bolt shells, hugely more IG tanks than SM ones, and trillions more guard than marines. The librarians would eventually starve, sleep or be destroyed by a rain of shells and their shields fall before a fraction of the guard would be gone, the Space marines would be obliterated into dust and pulp by artillery.
The IG are infintely better than SMs any day of the week
Void__Dragon wrote: Yeah but the Librarians could destroy millions of Imperial Guardsmen on their own, combining their power, they raze the planet to the ground.
If that were true then why haven't the Grey Knights single handedly annihilated every threat to the IoM? You are greatly over estimating the power of SM LIbrarians. You also keep ignoring me when I ask what happens when one Librarian's head explodes from prolonged Warp exposure whilst all these psykers are in communion. The Warp would literally be flowing out of the Librarians and all sanctioned pyskers on the planet with that kind of mass channeling.
I'd also like to see the ensuing infighting too. There would be civil war between the marines once the Black Templars started to bitch about the use of psykers, and other chapters start to take sides.
"However, when they do take part in a battle, it is a glorious and terrifying sight to behold as, with the power of their mind, they level fortresses, reduce entire armies to rivers of molten flesh, and split the very sky with fire and lightning."
- Deathwatch core rulebook, page 183, on the power Chief Librarians wield
A thousand battlefields, torn to pieces by the Chief Librarians.
More quotes to come at my next convenience.
A Thousand Sons proves that a few hundred telekines can create a kine shield that can withstand orbital bombardment that turned the rest of Prospero into a wasteland. The Imperial Guard has no ordinance near that level. Just like how firing a trillion bullets will not harm Superman, firing a trillion lasguns will not penetrate a kine shield of that strength. Even with sustained Deathstrike Missile bombardment, it is unlikely to rupture.
As for the Grey Knights: Most Grey Knights explicitly are not, in fact, on the level of a Librarian. Fewer still comparable to a Chief Librarian.
As for prolonged Warp exposure, I did acknowledge that. At worst that provides a mutual kill.
I'd say IG would win. Repeating what has already been said, trillions of Guards vs 1 million Space Marines? Even with all the powerful Psykers that the SM have, that'd do it.
The fluff is still a bit ambiguous about psychers though.
Librarians aside the guard would piss it, with the librarians, who knows.
I suppose the questions a bit silly really, aren't there literally like thousands of billions of guardsmen?
If one hive world has 300 billion on, and there are a hundred thousand planets in the imperium, won't there in actual fact be tens of thousands of billions of guardsmen?
Void__Dragon wrote: "However, when they do take part in a battle, it is a glorious and terrifying sight to behold as, with the power of their mind, they level fortresses, reduce entire armies to rivers of molten flesh, and split the very sky with fire and lightning."
- Deathwatch core rulebook, page 183, on the power Chief Librarians wield
A thousand battlefields, torn to pieces by the Chief Librarians.
More quotes to come at my next convenience.
A Thousand Sons proves that a few hundred telekines can create a kine shield that can withstand orbital bombardment that turned the rest of Prospero into a wasteland. The Imperial Guard has no ordinance near that level. Just like how firing a trillion bullets will not harm Superman, firing a trillion lasguns will not penetrate a kine shield of that strength. Even with sustained Deathstrike Missile bombardment, it is unlikely to rupture.
As for the Grey Knights: Most Grey Knights explicitly are not, in fact, on the level of a Librarian. Fewer still comparable to a Chief Librarian.
As for prolonged Warp exposure, I did acknowledge that. At worst that provides a mutual kill.
You do realize that even Kine shields at that level aren't invulnerable right? They're very draining on the psykers, with the damage inflicted on the shield taking a toll, even inflicting fatalities on those casting it. Nevermind that the city was still completed wrecked by a frontal assault, despite the shield.
They might be able to "wipe out entire armies", but you forget that this army is literally uncountable. I don't care how many fortresses they level, eventually the numbers will roll over them.
Void__Dragon wrote: "However, when they do take part in a battle, it is a glorious and terrifying sight to behold as, with the power of their mind, they level fortresses, reduce entire armies to rivers of molten flesh, and split the very sky with fire and lightning."
- Deathwatch core rulebook, page 183, on the power Chief Librarians wield
I always take the class descriptions with a pinch of salt as obviously they have to sell each and every class to the players so they make them all sound epic. They wouldn't have a class which read that they were a bit on the duff side of things, not that great really compared to all the other classes...
Even though it's a question we've had before several times, and it's rather silly, I'm routing for the Guard. No matter how many they killed, the Guard would still end up stomping the Marines through sheer weight of numbers, their armoured vehicles, their artillery and phenomenal numbers of heavy & special weapons.
Hunterindarkness wrote: Also, On spykers...nope IG has 10'000 times more psykers , at lest. they may be weaker one on one...but they simply out power the SM psykers as a group many times over.
What do you base this on?
We don't know how many Sanctioned Psykers the Imperial Guard have, and almost all are far less than a Librarian.
If we are going by the IG codex, a million to 1 in favor of the IG, is being lenient. I do not char if its a alpha level psyker, if its outnumber 20 to 1 it's dead. You simply can only hold back so much and pull out so much power, the tide the IG can throw would down the Librarians plain and simple. They simply could never, ever kill enough to even slow the IGdow before they themselves are killed.
IG is armed with Flashlights, we have the Holy Bolter. nuff said...lol
Seriously though I wonder what effect the fact that the IG view the Astartes as god-like would have on morale. When the IG face a massed group of these God-like beings (to them) and librarians start tearing them apart how many would run? Then the Astartes would launch lighting strikes into those weak spots fully exploiting them maybe routing the whole army. History is full of numerically superior forces losing to much smaller forces due to their belief in the strength/invulnerability of their enemy especially when those enemies are seen as more then human. Which in this case would actually be true.
The IG fight Chaos space marines and kill them...the normal Sm are not as scary and are outnumbered. Once you Have A regiment kill a squad or three, they start viewing em like any other deadly target.
there is zero way for SM to win, even killed a million IG for every single Sm lost( wont happen, not even close) you can never win, you only kill at best 1% of the IG.
Hell, they IG can send freaking regiments of banblades after standard Sm squads. Hell they have enough to easily spare 1 tank regiment per Sm.
emptyedens wrote: IG is armed with Flashlights, we have the Holy Bolter. nuff said...lol
Seriously though I wonder what effect the fact that the IG view the Astartes as god-like would have on morale. When the IG face a massed group of these God-like beings (to them) and librarians start tearing them apart how many would run? Then the Astartes would launch lighting strikes into those weak spots fully exploiting them maybe routing the whole army. History is full of numerically superior forces losing to much smaller forces due to their belief in the strength/invulnerability of their enemy especially when those enemies are seen as more then human. Which in this case would actually be true.
There's a difference between 'numerically superior' and 'so numerous they're uncountable'
There's no weak spot to launch a lightning strike against when a million faces trillions.
Color Sgt. Kell wrote: Ok, if every single loyalist space marine chapter gathered all its members, and every imperial guard regiment was combined, who would win in a fight?
No question. The Imperial Guard could win just by crushing the marines under the weight of their bodies, never mind shooting.
And that's not even counting the tanks.
In fact, Ithink it'd be physically impossible to fit all of the Imperial Guard on a single Earth sized planet...
Hunterindarkness wrote: The IG fight Chaos space marines and kill them...the normal Sm are not as scary and are outnumbered. Once you Have A regiment kill a squad or three, they start viewing em like any other deadly target.
there is zero way for SM to win, even killed a million IG for every single Sm lost( wont happen, not even close) you can never win, you only kill at best 1% of the IG.
Hell, they IG can send freaking regiments of banblades after standard Sm squads. Hell they have enough to easily spare 1 tank regiment per Sm.
In a way they are scarier. Chaos is evil and the IG knows this but the SM are the heros that they have venerated their whole lives. The sons of their God. It would be like firing on a mass of priests. People you have been taught that they are the embodiment of your Gods will. I don't think it would necessarily win the battle for the SM but I think it would make it a lot closer then most are saying. Once a rout starts it has a way of spreading and with how close packed the lines of guard would have to be to bring their power to bear against such a small target and the obvious moral issues you might just have a perfect storm for the IG.
emptyedens wrote: IG is armed with Flashlights, we have the Holy Bolter. nuff said...lol
As do the Guard. In fact a Guard regiment 50,000 strong would bring more Heavy Bolters & heavy/special weaponry to the fight than a 1,000 Astartes Chapter. There're the heavy/special weapons at Squad level, Heavy/Special Weapon Squads at Platoon level, all of the many heavy bolters on their Chimera transports and on the hulls of the battle tanks... see where this is going? The Guard will bring more Heavy & Special weapons than there are Astartes. Of course I haven't touched on the ordnance & tank/vehicle armaments and so on there. The Astartes would be outgunned, outmanned & outfought.
emptyedens wrote: People you have been taught that they are the embodiment of your Gods will. I don't think it would necessarily win the battle for the SM but I think it would make it a lot closer then most are saying.
When you are outnumber over a billion to One, just by bodies alone, Psychological advantage never even comes into play.
I am very skeptical that you can fit over 1 billion people on 1 planet.......
I'd like to see Space Marines vs Death Korps of Kreig, hell all of the DDoK would make this massive bayonet charge towards the space marines that would consist of all guardsmen running towards the enemy
Traffic Conez wrote: I am very skeptical that you can fit over 1 billion people on 1 planet.......
I'd like to see Space Marines vs Death Korps of Kreig, hell all of the DDoK would make this massive bayonet charge towards the space marines that would consist of all guardsmen running towards the enemy
The Earth has a population of, what is it now, 9 billion? Yeah you can fit that many on a planet.
To this, I think the Guard just has too many bodies. Sure the SM have Librarians and things, but there are just too many people.
Traffic Conez wrote: I am very skeptical that you can fit over 1 billion people on 1 planet.......
Earth has a population of roughly 6.9 billion human beings. Supposedly could sustain an estimate of 12.4 billion humans. It may be a small world after all, but it's not THAT small.
I'd just like to point out that there is written fluff detailing that even INQUISITORS fear a single Chaos Space Marine as an incredibly able, strong, and vicious opponent. Their armor is covered in horrible symbols that make even these devout servants of the emperor physically ill, and make lesser mortals crawl into the fetal position and beg for death. A normal guardsman would probably crap his pants and screech into the distance until the Commisar got a good bead on him.
Back on topic. I love threads like these. They're basically fan threads or "I want to see this faction win so I am going to gerryrig a situation in which they have an unbeatable advantage." Have the fight on a single planet? IG win, without question. Have the fight over many planets in many systems requiring extensive and fluid travel between battlezones? The Space Marines wipe the floor and take it without trying.
I got an idea for the next thread. Tau versus Orks, but the Orks have to stand still and can't have any meganobs or warbosses to lead them. Oh, and also there aren't any orks. Just gretchin. Discuss.
I'd just like to point out that there is written fluff detailing that even INQUISITORS fear a single Chaos Space Marine as an incredibly able, strong, and vicious opponent. Their armor is covered in horrible symbols that make even these devout servants of the emperor physically ill, and make lesser mortals crawl into the fetal position and beg for death. A normal guardsman would probably crap his pants and screech into the distance until the Commisar got a good bead on him.
Back on topic. I love threads like these. They're basically fan threads or "I want to see this faction win so I am going to gerryrig a situation in which they have an unbeatable advantage." Have the fight on a single planet? IG win, without question. Have the fight over many planets in many systems requiring extensive and fluid travel between battlezones? The Space Marines wipe the floor and take it without trying.
I got an idea for the next thread. Tau versus Orks, but the Orks have to stand still and can't have any meganobs or warbosses to lead them. Oh, and also there aren't any orks. Just gretchin. Discuss.
Untold millions of Gretchen that release spores as they die, creating (within 6-9 months I believe) more Gretchen and orks. Some orks will undoubtedly lead to becoming nobs. Some will have an affinity for tinkerin. Some will make a gargaunt. Tau cry as they see a machine outshoot them with 30 AP3 shots per turn. They will flee like the slimy spineless fish they are.
gpfunk wrote: I'd just like to point out that there is written fluff detailing that even INQUISITORS fear a single Chaos Space Marine as an incredibly able, strong, and vicious opponent. Their armor is covered in horrible symbols that make even these devout servants of the emperor physically ill, and make lesser mortals crawl into the fetal position and beg for death. A normal guardsman would probably crap his pants and screech into the distance until the Commisar got a good bead on him.
Everyone Fears them, even SM's if they have a brain. But some Guardsmen, just like everyone else could deal with seeing one...even more so if they have a long-las. When you are talking whole regiments here, you have men that can and do deal with it.
Back on topic. I love threads like these. They're basically fan threads or "I want to see this faction win so I am going to gerryrig a situation in which they have an unbeatable advantage." Have the fight on a single planet? IG win, without question. Have the fight over many planets in many systems requiring extensive and fluid travel between battlezones? The Space Marines wipe the floor and take it without trying.
Only if the IG is denied all support it normally gets. You guys forget, Sm are self contained and self reliant. The IG has the whole of the IoM as its supply chain and the whole of the Navy as its support. If it came down to a real winner takes all fight the Sm have zero chance of ever winning, its just a numbers game plain and simple One off super Marines and snowflake marines aside, Sm die by the score in normal fights, they simply lack the numbers.
Void__Dragon wrote: Because psykers are incredibly rare, psykers with that potential are even more rare, psykers of that potential who can become Marines are rarer still, and even if all those prequisites are met, it takes many years of battle experience to reach that level.
Kine shields also would not keep the Orks or Tyranids from physically entering.
Also, this being a single planet makes the concentration of Librarians far more potent.
then the imperial guard just enter the sheild and destroy the sm's. also something tells me a kine shield wouldnt do jack when a warlord titan decides to squish said libarians to paste. even libarians must bow to the god-machines. Lets put it like this. there are 32,380 hive worlds and on average each hive world has 500,000,000,000 people on it. thats 1 619 000 000 000 000 000 men on the hive worlds alone. thats mind blowing. sms have no chance.
Back on topic. I love threads like these. They're basically fan threads or "I want to see this faction win so I am going to gerryrig a situation in which they have an unbeatable advantage." Have the fight on a single planet? IG win, without question. Have the fight over many planets in many systems requiring extensive and fluid travel between battlezones? The Space Marines wipe the floor and take it without trying.
A conservative estimate of the imperial guards strength is 1 regiment per planet, likewise, a conservative estimate of the navy's strength would be IMHO 1 ship per planet. Not all of them cruisers or battleships, but certainly the navy is vast. The astartes by comparison have comparitively few ships, and those they do have are designed for close orbital support rather than to destroy enemy ships. It stands to reason, that rare as they are, the imperial navy probably has more battleships than the space marines have ships. Any way you look at it, be they poster boys or not, the imperial guard and the imperi navy would squish the astartes like a bug if they came to blows
even back before the horus heresy the sm's didnt have enough numbers to defeat the universe and since they have lost about 70% of those numbers. not good
Hunterindarkness wrote: Only if the IG is denied all support it normally gets. You guys forget, Sm are self contained and self reliant. The IG has the whole of the IoM as its supply chain and the whole of the Navy as its support. If it came down to a real winner takes all fight the Sm have zero chance of ever winning, its just a numbers game plain and simple One off super Marines and snowflake marines aside, Sm die by the score in normal fights, they simply lack the numbers.
I'd say that's a debate. Space Marines pride themselves in being able to redeploy far faster than the Imperial Guard, even if they do have Naval Support. If the Imperial Guard sit on their laurels and let the SM take them a planet at a time, then they absolutely could win. It requires more thought on the part of the SM, but they don't lack good tactical thinkers.
SM don't have a 0% chance of winning. But once again, my main point is that this is essentially a Yay Imperial Guard fan thread. That's my take on it, and I offer it to all within the thread. Any people who actually support the Space Marines in a fight like this should read and take their thoughts elsewhere, as there's no real conversation to be here.
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Thatguyhsagun wrote: Untold millions of Gretchen that release spores as they die, creating (within 6-9 months I believe) more Gretchen and orks. Some orks will undoubtedly lead to becoming nobs. Some will have an affinity for tinkerin. Some will make a gargaunt. Tau cry as they see a machine outshoot them with 30 AP3 shots per turn. They will flee like the slimy spineless fish they are.
Well, let's hope that's true. I do so love the Orks.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
madtankbloke wrote: A conservative estimate of the imperial guards strength is 1 regiment per planet, likewise, a conservative estimate of the navy's strength would be IMHO 1 ship per planet. Not all of them cruisers or battleships, but certainly the navy is vast. The astartes by comparison have comparitively few ships, and those they do have are designed for close orbital support rather than to destroy enemy ships. It stands to reason, that rare as they are, the imperial navy probably has more battleships than the space marines have ships. Any way you look at it, be they poster boys or not, the imperial guard and the imperi navy would squish the astartes like a bug if they came to blows
SM strength does not lie in numbers, it lies in force concentration. If the IG allow the SM to gain greater force concentration on any one planet, they will lose. If they allow SM local superiority in a system then they've lost. If they allow SM to gain any semblance of force concentration whilst they, themselves are spread out trying to defend every planet equally, they will lose.
In the context of this thread though, it just doesn't matter. This match is one that favors IG in almost every way. It's one in which the greatest ability of the SM is neutered on a grand scale.
Hunterindarkness wrote: What's debatable? Nothing you quoted is really open to debate, its fact.
If you choose to ignore everything I have said in the previous post, I'll simply have to assume you're trolling.
EDIT: I'd also like to note that there is no way to say who would win in this debate as a "fact." Do you know why? Because GW will never sanction a battle like this in canon. You can certainly make an educated guess or estimation, but that's all it is.
Hunterindarkness wrote: What's debatable? Nothing you quoted is really open to debate, its fact.
If you choose to ignore everything I have said in the previous post, I'll simply have to assume you're trolling.
No, You quoted me saying it was debatable. Let's look at those points
*Sm are self contained and self reliant: Canon fact, they build and maintain their own gear, they recruit and train there own troops. Not up for debate.
*The IG has the whole of the IoM as its supply chain and the whole of the Navy as its support.: Also fact, the admistartum( sp?) does the logistics for the Guard, the Navy does the support role and transport, the whole of the IoM does the gear creation and recruitment. This is also fact.
*If it came down to a real winner takes all fight the Sm have zero chance of ever winning, its just a numbers game plain and simple: How is this even debatable?
*One off super Marines and snowflake marines aside, Sm die by the score in normal fights: Also a fact shown by the codexs and books, the Sm are both super powerful and die by the scores taking the same kinda foes the Guards take.
Take a long and careful look at the post that I wrote in response to your original words. You have latched on to the word "debatable" without looking at the rest of the post. The rest of the post had nothing to do with any of the points you made being "debatable". My points were completely self contained and about the Space Marine faction in a match up spanning worlds and systems. I raised questions to your points through my own words, which once again you ignored.
I was using the term debatable to qualify the following statement: "The SM have 0 chance of winning." Do you know why that's debatable? Because it's not a numbers game. It's a GW canon game. The Games-Workshop can do anything they want with their intellectual property. They could theoretically say the the entirety of the Imperial Guard were just defeated by Chaos Squats and THAT would be canon fact. You saying the SM have 0 chance of winning is not fact, it's your opinion. That's a simple case of knowing your definitions.
So, once again, ignoring most of the points I made and merely reiterating your own points isn't really doing a whole lot for me. If you want to believe that the Imperial Guard would win in any circumstances against the Space Marines, then that is your choice. Feel free to theory craft all you like on it. It won't make it a fact any more than putting your fingers in your ears and reading off your Uplifting Guardsmen Primer will. Further proves my point that this is an IG Fan Thread.
Now, because I enjoy having a conversation rather than having my posts simply ignored in favor of regurgitating the same old Gak, I'd be happy to talk about the points that you have made.
1.SM are self contained and Self Reliant: Not entirely sure why this is a bad thing. Means they operate a hell of a lot faster since they work internally. Calling the navy is a long, protracted process and the time in travel itself is exacerbated by the size of any Imperial Guard force you wish to deploy. The time frame for an IG force to effectively move and deploy from one theatre of battle to another can take anywhere from two to three weeks on the optimistic side to months on the slow side. By then a Space Marine strike force could have destroyed the defense forces stationed on any one planet and moved on to the next one before new IG troops even set foot on the ground.
2.The IG has the whole of the IoM as its supply chain and the whole of the Navy as its support: Talked about the Navy being slow and inefficient before. This would apply to any space battles in which they would engage. SM fleets can simply maneuver to where a Navy presence is weakest far faster than the opposite. Having a supply chain means nothing if your aggressor is striking faster than you can react. If you have long supply lanes then there are more places that it can be cut. There's more space you have to defend. It's as much of an advantage as a disadvantage.
3. Your third point was already answered above.
4.One off Super Marines and snowflakes aside, SM die by the score in normal fights: And according to codexes and books, Imperial Guard die by the thousand score. According to some books, Space Marines don't die in scores. In fact, in the Grey Knights codex there are several accounts of a single Grey Knight Strike Squad member taking on way above his weight level in Daemons. I shudder to think what that kind of power could do against an entity that is much less formidable.
There's your counter argument. All of these statements are also backed up by fluff as I am sure yours are. There's ample evidence that it wouldn't be a one way contest. Honestly, I've already made my point. I'll leave you all to it.
Take a long and careful look at the post that I wrote in response to your original words. You have latched on to the word "debatable" without looking at the rest of the post. The rest of the post had nothing to do with any of the points you made being "debatable". My points were completely self contained and about the Space Marine faction in a match up spanning worlds and systems. I raised questions to your points through my own words, which once again you ignored
I was using the term debatable to qualify the following statement: "The SM have 0 chance of winning." Do you know why that's debatable? Because it's not a numbers game. It's a GW canon game. The Games-Workshop can do anything they want with their intellectual property. They could theoretically say the the entirety of the Imperial Guard were just defeated by Chaos Squats and THAT would be canon fact. You saying the SM have 0 chance of winning is not fact, it's your opinion. That's a simple case of knowing your definitions.
It 100% is a numbers game, canon does not exist in 40k, Sm are both unstoppable gods and die by the dozens to minor foes. The very same thing can be said of the IG, they curb stomp foes or get rolled by minor foes and someone must come to save them, all in which book. what GW does or does not do is irrelevant for the question asked, With canon in 40k non existant, have to fall back on the facts we know and that is hard data on numbers and combat capability.
So, once again, ignoring most of the points I made and merely reiterating your own points isn't really doing a whole lot for me. If you want to believe that the Imperial Guard would win in any circumstances against the Space Marines, then that is your choice. Feel free to theory craft all you like on it. It won't make it a fact any more than putting your fingers in your ears and reading off your Uplifting Guardsmen Primer will. Further proves my point that this is an IG Fan Thread.
If you made a point of any kind other than "threads like this are stupid" I can't seem to find it. Hard numbers are hard numbers man, in an all out fight the Sm just do not have the number or firepower to win, it does not matter if its one worrld or a whole sector, they lack the manpower.
1.SM are self contained and Self Reliant: Not entirely sure why this is a bad thing. Means they operate a hell of a lot faster since they work internally. Calling the navy is a long, protracted process and the time in travel itself is exacerbated by the size of any Imperial Guard force you wish to deploy. The time frame for an IG force to effectively move and deploy from one theatre of battle to another can take anywhere from two to three weeks on the optimistic side to months on the slow side. By then a Space Marine strike force could have destroyed the defense forces stationed on any one planet and moved on to the next one before new IG troops even set foot on the ground.
The can arrive fast, they can not resupply fast, can not get reinforcements, can not call back out fast or more or less anything. The SM are a strike force, they can't fight an all out war, not any more. They lack the set up. Yes, they can hit and run, its all they can do..what they can't do is fight a prolonged conflict, the IG can, its how they are set up its what they do. Your Sm hit the target, do not lasting harm and leave..the IG replace the loses, in what amounts to days, the Sm takes years to replace a sinlge marine or more for ships and gear, some can't be replaced. The Sm being self reliant is a hindrance in a protracted conflict with a foe that outnumbers them billions to one.
2.The IG has the whole of the IoM as its supply chain and the whole of the Navy as its support: Talked about the Navy being slow and inefficient before. This would apply to any space battles in which they would engage. SM fleets can simply maneuver to where a Navy presence is weakest far faster than the opposite. Having a supply chain means nothing if your aggressor is striking faster than you can react. If you have long supply lanes then there are more places that it can be cut. There's more space you have to defend. It's as much of an advantage as a disadvantage.
And once more this does not last for a war, its something they do when they have one single target and can then retire and spends years regearing and rebuilding. The Navy and the IG shurgs at loses that kill chapters as if its a very minor issue. They can replace them without any worry or any real issue. You can't seem to grasp that Hit and run with zero chance to resupply can not win a war on that scale, no chance.
4.One off Super Marines and snowflakes aside, SM die by the score in normal fights: And according to codexes and books, Imperial Guard die by the thousand score. According to some books, Space Marines don't die in scores. In fact, in the Grey Knights codex there are several accounts of a single Grey Knight Strike Squad member taking on way above his weight level in Daemons. I shudder to think what that kind of power could do against an entity that is much less formidable.
Ummm dude they do die by the score, by the chapter some times even. You can't grasp the difference in size here. the IG can die by the freaking Millions with zero long term or even sort term effect on this scale, they can always bring in more. even if a SM take out 10'000 IG for every one that does, its a game they can never win. They lack the numbers.If enough guards charge a SM, he is dead, no if and or buts about it, the shere weight will drag him down and they will kill him. It does not matter if its IG, orks, Nids or My little ponies, a large enough force will always kill those who do not have numbers and can't replace loses or supplies.
There's your counter argument. All of these statements are also backed up by fluff as I am sure yours are. There's ample evidence that it wouldn't be a one way contest. Honestly, I've already made my point. I'll leave you all to it.
The only point I see is "If Sm do not win you guys are IG fanbois"
Wasnt the Kine shield eventually broken by the orbital bombardment? yeah the IG dont have the navy to do that in this battle, but they have probably more baneblades than marines and more LRBTs and Artillery than marines x3
In a straight up fight between the Imperial Guard and the Space Marines, the Space Marines would be obliterated in a matter of seconds.
Most codex given estimates of the power is generally 1 Space Marine for every 10-12 Guardsmen.
There are one million Space Marines, equivalent to 10-12 million guardsmen.
Now, as cited in the rulebook and IG codex, there are *billions* of IG regiments, each consisting of thousands of guardsmen. Assuming the plural "billions" only means 2 billion, and they're all say an average size equal to that of the Cadian 8th, we get 16,000,000,000,000 (sixteen trillion guardsmen), or about 16,000,000 guardsmen per Space Marine. This means that the entirety of the Adeptus Astartes is worth 1/1,333,333.33 of the Imperial Guard's fighting strength.
Now, assuming a million worlds with an *average* population equal to that of current Earth (some far more, some less, but on average equal to earth), That would be an extremely small mobilization rate, only sixteen million guardsmen per world, or one soldier per ~438 people, a lower mobilization rate than most modern democratic nations in peacetime in what is otherwise a highly militant theocracy. If we assume a more realistic mobilization rate for a militant theocracy that's constantly at war and lets multiply that by 5, that gives us 10 billion regiments and 80 million guardsmen per Space Marine. Assuming this ratio, that means the sum total of the Adeptus Astartes is equivalent to ~1/6.7 milllionth of the Imperial Guard's fighting strength.
Even if you mulitply that to ridiculous levels, say each SM is worth 100, 1000, hell lets say 10,000 guardsmen (as...some are wont to do) to account for Spess Mahreen AWSEOMEPOWER or to account for various force multipliers, the Space Marines are equivalent to 0.015% of the Imperial Guard's fighting strength.
Now, yes, Space Marines have their force multipliers, they have fast orbital insertions, they are genetically engineered super soldiers and whatnot, but they lack heavy/long range artillery short of orbital bombardment. they generally lack air superiority aircraft and AA capabilities, at least in quantity. The IG will be inextricably linked with the IN which is more than capable of overpowering SM fleets (especially as the IN is designed for fleet to fleet combat and SM fleets are designed for planetary assault and by codex law restricted from certain types of vessels). The IG also has its own force multipliers, they have *real* artillery and lots of it, lots of armor, and significantly more AA weapons and the IN has tons of aircraft.
In a straight up war between the IG and the Space Marines, it wouldn't stand a blink of a chance.
The entirety of the Space Marines have the military value of a few hours worth of Imperial Guard daily recruitment.
TL;DR Space Marines work because 40k is a Space Fantasy setting where they don't have to explain things because...magic. Space Marines stop working once you start looking at them from any realistic perspective.
In a straight up fight between the Imperial Guard and the Space Marines, the Space Marines would be obliterated in a matter of seconds.
Most codex given estimates of the power is generally 1 Space Marine for every 10-12 Guardsmen.
There are one million Space Marines, equivalent to 10-12 million guardsmen.
Now, as cited in the rulebook and IG codex, there are *billions* of IG regiments, each consisting of thousands of guardsmen. Assuming the plural "billions" only means 2 billion, and they're all say an average size equal to that of the Cadian 8th, we get 16,000,000,000,000 (sixteen trillion guardsmen), or about 16,000,000 guardsmen per Space Marine. This means that the entirety of the Adeptus Astartes is worth 1/1,333,333.33 of the Imperial Guard's fighting strength.
Now, assuming a million worlds with an *average* population equal to that of current Earth (some far more, some less, but on average equal to earth), That would be an extremely small mobilization rate, only sixteen million guardsmen per world, or one soldier per ~438 people, a lower mobilization rate than most modern democratic nations in peacetime in what is otherwise a highly militant theocracy. If we assume a more realistic mobilization rate for a militant theocracy that's constantly at war and lets multiply that by 5, that gives us 10 billion regiments and 80 million guardsmen per Space Marine. Assuming this ratio, that means the sum total of the Adeptus Astartes is equivalent to ~1/6.7 milllionth of the Imperial Guard's fighting strength.
Now, yes, Space Marines have their force multipliers, they have fast orbital insertions, they are genetically engineered super soldiers and whatnot, but they lack heavy/long range artillery short of orbital bombardment. they generally lack air superiority aircraft and AA capabilities, at least in quantity. The IG will be inextricably linked with the IN which is more than capable of overpowering SM fleets (especially as the IN is designed for fleet to fleet combat and SM fleets are designed for planetary assault and by codex law restricted from certain types of vessels). The IG also has its own force multipliers, they have *real* artillery and lots of it, lots of armor, and significantly more AA weapons and the IN has tons of aircraft.
In a straight up war between the IG and the Space Marines, it wouldn't stand a blink of a chance.
The entirety of the Space Marines have the military value of a few hours worth of Imperial Guard daily recruitment.
TL;DR Space Marines work because 40k is a Space Fantasy setting where they don't have to explain things because...magic. Space Marines stop working once you start looking at them from any realistic perspective.
Space Marines don't work as Games Workshop describes them. It's implied somewhat throughout their fluff that they could do the job of the Imperial Guard and better. Of course when applying logic that assertion falls apart like wet paper.
Now, what we the fans view them as makes more sense. I, for one, view them as an elite mobile strike force that attacks hard or important targets in support of the Imperial Guard. Using them as line infantry is an incredible waste of their talents. Sure, the Guard could do their job but it would far far more costlier and more time taking. Resources and time are precious to the IoM so this is why the Astartes are needed. Not because they are an uber army but because they are good at doing jobs too delicate for the hammer of the emperor.
So, of course, a straight up fight like the OP suggested is the realm of the Imperial Guard and the Space Marines cannot be mobile at all. Now, if it was a contest to see who can kill whose leadership first then the Space marines would win certainly.
TL;DR: You're correct but Space Marines aren't a total waste. It's just that GW is bad at numbers.
The IG would inevitably overwhelm the Astartes, but I think each Space Marines would each have a good amount of kills to their name before falling; they wouldn't go down without a good fight in my opinion.
Just killing off the 'leader' won't work with the Imperial Guard. If you killed their generals then you've still got billions, nay trillions, of men out there armed to the teeth who will still carry on fighting and there are always officers there to replace senior officers who die or get promoted. Actually in terms of sheer numbers, it'd take the Astartes a very, very long time to kill off the Guard's leadership because that would be millions, even billions of officers in this scenario. The officers themselves would outnumber the Astartes, and then there're the Sergeants & any other NCO ranks different Guard regiments have and then there're all those humans who are natural leaders who, if their NCOs & officers were dead, would step forward to lead.
The Guard are not Tyranids or Orks. You can't lop off 'their' head and be done with it, because another head will grow instantly. It'd be far easier for the Guard to destroy the Astartes leadership than vice versa.
In a straight up fight between the Imperial Guard and the Space Marines, the Space Marines would be obliterated in a matter of seconds.
Most codex given estimates of the power is generally 1 Space Marine for every 10-12 Guardsmen.
There are one million Space Marines, equivalent to 10-12 million guardsmen.
Now, as cited in the rulebook and IG codex, there are *billions* of IG regiments, each consisting of thousands of guardsmen. Assuming the plural "billions" only means 2 billion, and they're all say an average size equal to that of the Cadian 8th, we get 16,000,000,000,000 (sixteen trillion guardsmen), or about 16,000,000 guardsmen per Space Marine. This means that the entirety of the Adeptus Astartes is worth 1/1,333,333.33 of the Imperial Guard's fighting strength.
Now, assuming a million worlds with an *average* population equal to that of current Earth (some far more, some less, but on average equal to earth), That would be an extremely small mobilization rate, only sixteen million guardsmen per world, or one soldier per ~438 people, a lower mobilization rate than most modern democratic nations in peacetime in what is otherwise a highly militant theocracy. If we assume a more realistic mobilization rate for a militant theocracy that's constantly at war and lets multiply that by 5, that gives us 10 billion regiments and 80 million guardsmen per Space Marine. Assuming this ratio, that means the sum total of the Adeptus Astartes is equivalent to ~1/6.7 milllionth of the Imperial Guard's fighting strength.
Now, yes, Space Marines have their force multipliers, they have fast orbital insertions, they are genetically engineered super soldiers and whatnot, but they lack heavy/long range artillery short of orbital bombardment. they generally lack air superiority aircraft and AA capabilities, at least in quantity. The IG will be inextricably linked with the IN which is more than capable of overpowering SM fleets (especially as the IN is designed for fleet to fleet combat and SM fleets are designed for planetary assault and by codex law restricted from certain types of vessels). The IG also has its own force multipliers, they have *real* artillery and lots of it, lots of armor, and significantly more AA weapons and the IN has tons of aircraft.
In a straight up war between the IG and the Space Marines, it wouldn't stand a blink of a chance.
The entirety of the Space Marines have the military value of a few hours worth of Imperial Guard daily recruitment.
TL;DR Space Marines work because 40k is a Space Fantasy setting where they don't have to explain things because...magic. Space Marines stop working once you start looking at them from any realistic perspective.
Space Marines don't work as Games Workshop describes them. It's implied somewhat throughout their fluff that they could do the job of the Imperial Guard and better. Of course when applying logic that assertion falls apart like wet paper.
Now, what we the fans view them as makes more sense. I, for one, view them as an elite mobile strike force that attacks hard or important targets in support of the Imperial Guard.
Right, this makes complete sense.
Using them as line infantry is an incredible waste of their talents.
Again, this makes sense, but they are portrayed doing this time and time again also
Sure, the Guard could do their job but it would far far more costlier and more time taking. Resources and time are precious to the IoM so this is why the Astartes are needed. Not because they are an uber army but because they are good at doing jobs too delicate for the hammer of the emperor.
Again won't argue, though the big issue is numbers, in an empire of a million worlds and battlefronts across thousands of light years, the Space Marines would be mythically rare even with dozens or hundreds of chapters involved in a war, and as the fluff itself states, most wars never see a single space marine.
So, of course, a straight up fight like the OP suggested is the realm of the Imperial Guard and the Space Marines cannot be mobile at all. Now, if it was a contest to see who can kill whose leadership first then the Space marines would win certainly.
Well, sorta. The IG is extremely decentralized, and has multiple different levels of command and control, killing command elements won't necessarily stop the IG from functioning as there's often another sphere or level of command that can take over, and many command elements are extremely heavily fortified, not to mention extremely numerous relative to the SM's themselves, likely having enough ultra-senior commanders to outmatch the SM's for numbers alone
TL;DR: You're correct but Space Marines aren't a total waste. It's just that GW is bad at numbers.
Not at all saying they are a waste, only that, given their numbers and capabilities, they really shouldn't have anywhere near the effect they do if the actual numbers for a galactic war are calculated, they'd need to be increased several thousand fold, and otherwise the IG seems as it would be able to manage without them (and does in most wars), even if the cost is higher
Traffic Conez wrote: I am very skeptical that you can fit over 1 billion people on 1 planet.......
I'd like to see Space Marines vs Death Korps of Kreig, hell all of the DDoK would make this massive bayonet charge towards the space marines that would consist of all guardsmen running towards the enemy
You know, my favorite part of the Horus Heresy fluff is that they describe each legion as having 100,000 or so space marines as if that's supposed to be impressive. You have to wonder how only 2 million guys managed to conquer so many planets. Maybe because most of them were barbarians?
Also, if such an insignificantly small force such as the Space Marines have a noticable impact on the decline of the Imperium then the Imperium must not be in as much trouble as the fluff would let on.
I once heard that the whole population of Earth (~ 7 billion) could fit on the Isle of Wight. Maybe not true anymore..
but apparently we would all fit into the Isle of Skye, or Texas with 1000 square feet for each of us.
http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20111101114713AAFsog7
Jihadin wrote: The winner would be whoever has the rounds and batteries to last throughout the fight
Probably not the Space Marines being outnumbered tens of millions to one
vossyvo wrote: This would be a huge futuristic version of of Thermopylae.
I.e. It wouldn't be pretty but IG would win in the end.
Well, realistically, it wouldn't even be Thermopylae, take the 300 Spartan's down to 1 dude, then increase the Persian armies numbers to about the current population of the Netherlands (about 16 million, at a minimum), and the numerical disparity between the Imperial Guard and the Space Marines (as set out by, but not seemingly grasped by, GW) starts to get into the realm of realistic for this fight
Though, again, the SM has access to Exterminatus-grade weapons (the aforementioned Life-Eater Virus bombs, as used during the first War of Armageddon) and the IG doesn't.
Psienesis wrote: Though, again, the SM has access to Exterminatus-grade weapons (the aforementioned Life-Eater Virus bombs, as used during the first War of Armageddon) and the IG doesn't.
The IN does however, and is fundamentally part of the same organization and warmachine, you can't fight the IG without the IN, and the IN is similarly disproportionatly large relative to SM fleets as the IG is to Space Marine infantry, plus IN fleets are designed to fight ship to ship engagements where SM ships are designed for orbital insertion (an IN cruiser generally is better armored and notably more resilient than an SM strike cruiser for instance).
Hunterindarkness wrote: To bring Those into play,however opens up fleet support. Which brings the IN in for the IG.
Also calling down Exterminatus on a planet the whole of the SM's are also on...is a bad idea.
I thought the IN were completely separate from IG? Following the HH, they were split up so that rebellions couldn't be started by one IG commander and take his army onto other planets? Anyway In a land battle I think IG would have clearly this one.
Hunterindarkness wrote: To bring Those into play,however opens up fleet support. Which brings the IN in for the IG.
Also calling down Exterminatus on a planet the whole of the SM's are also on...is a bad idea.
I thought the IN were completely separate from IG? Following the HH, they were split up so that rebellions couldn't be started by one IG commander and take his army onto other planets? Anyway In a land battle I think IG would have clearly this one.
They're not completely separate, they still both fall under the Departmento Munitorum and Segmentum commands still control both, you just don't have operational or tactical shared commands, so battlefield commanders can't commandeer their own transport and vice versa.
They are not completely separate in the way SM's are from IG or the Admech is from the IG, the IN and IG fall under the same strategic command and the shared auspices of the Departmento Munitorum.
Hunterindarkness wrote: To bring Those into play,however opens up fleet support. Which brings the IN in for the IG.
Also calling down Exterminatus on a planet the whole of the SM's are also on...is a bad idea.
I thought the IN were completely separate from IG? Following the HH, they were split up so that rebellions couldn't be started by one IG commander and take his army onto other planets? Anyway In a land battle I think IG would have clearly this one.
They're not completely separate, they still both fall under the Departmento Munitorum and Segmentum commands still control both, you just don't have operational or tactical shared commands, so battlefield commanders can't commandeer their own transport and vice versa.
They are not completely separate in the way SM's are from IG or the Admech is from the IG, the IN and IG fall under the same strategic command and the shared auspices of the Departmento Munitorum.
Oh yeah i realised that, sorry I was thinking from a much smaller scale e.g. battlefield. I know they are both Departmento Munitorum. The point I was making was that compared to IG, SM have a lot more integrated fleet assets. I'm not denying any points nor disagreeing that the IG would completely steam-roll SM in a ground war...
They are, actually, entirely separate, by design. After the Heresy, and again after the Age of Apostasy, they didn't want such levels of force concentration in the hands of the relative few. This permits the Imperium to trap traitorous Guard units on a planet to then dispose of at their leisure.
However, the SM don't require fleet services (both denied by the terms of this debate) to enact Exterminatus. As we saw in the First War of Armageddon, the Life-Eater Virus can be deployed in a fairly standard bomb/missile munition, which can be transported by a Thunderhawk. The IG, however, do not have access to these weapons.
So again, it's a Pyrrhic victory, but as it would be a shot from the SM that ends the war (and the planet), it could be considered a victory for them.
Psienesis wrote: They are, actually, entirely separate, by design. After the Heresy, and again after the Age of Apostasy, they didn't want such levels of force concentration in the hands of the relative few. This permits the Imperium to trap traitorous Guard units on a planet to then dispose of at their leisure.
However, the SM don't require fleet services (both denied by the terms of this debate) to enact Exterminatus. As we saw in the First War of Armageddon, the Life-Eater Virus can be deployed in a fairly standard bomb/missile munition, which can be transported by a Thunderhawk. The IG, however, do not have access to these weapons.
So again, it's a Pyrrhic victory, but as it would be a shot from the SM that ends the war (and the planet), it could be considered a victory for them.
Again, the IN is under the same strategic command, both are part of the Departmento Munitorum, trying to say 'well the IN doesn't count' is silly because the IG doesn't fight without the IN and the same strategic command covers both (while there is no shared strategic command between say, the SM's and the AdMech or the Inquisition and the Custodes, etc) and is represented by a single High Lord on Terra.
They're separate enough that an IG regiment doesn't command its own star vessels, they don't have the same *operational* level command, but do share *strategic* command, the same Segmentum Command has authority over both.
On top of that, the IG definitely have their own weapons of mass destruction, nuclear missiles, vortex weapons, etc.
This will clear up there places in the hierarchy: the IG, IN, SM and the officio assasinorum are all separate.
EDIT: IG are controlled by the Departmento Munitorum. The Imperial navy is the Military arm of the Imperial Fleet. Both the Imperial Fleet and the Departmento Munitorum are part of the Adeptus Administratum.
This will clear up there places in the hierarchy: the IG, IN, SM and the officio assasinorum are all separate.
That diagram does not look correct, most nobably that the Adeptus Munitorum doesn't appear at all on there? The IG and IN are both subordinate under that, which is then subordinate to the Administratum. Also, the Navis Nobilite have never been described as subordinate to the IN outside of this diagram, rather they are independent households that serve with the IN, commercial fleets and Rogue Traders.
I think you're right about it being from the 6E rulebook, my book is currently at home, but it does still appear to be missing things/have them in different places relative to where they have been described previously.
Again, the IN is under the same strategic command, both are part of the Departmento Munitorum, trying to say 'well the IN doesn't count' is silly because the IG doesn't fight without the IN and the same strategic command covers both (while there is no shared strategic command between say, the SM's and the AdMech or the Inquisition and the Custodes, etc) and is represented by a single High Lord on Terra.
Of course it's silly. This whole debate is silly. I said that 2 pages ago. However, if you read the OP, you'll note that neither the IG nor the SM are permitted to have fleet assets on hand. However, the IN is *not* part of the IG in the same way that a Battle Barge or a Strike Cruiser *is* part of a Chapter's assets. If it's silly that the IG doesn't fight without the IN, it's silly to assume that the SM are fighting without their Battle Barges and Strike Cruisers and other fleet assets... in which case the whole thing becomes nuts, because some Chapters command vast fleets and other ships, many of which outclass anything the IN has.
As I posted in my first response, if all of the IG (and just the IG) went to war with all of the SM and everything their Chapters could bring, the SM would win without putting boots on the ground, because the IG lacks space-faring vehicles, and the SM do not. They'd simply glass the planet, or hit it with a Cyclonic Torpedo, or use some other tool of Exterminatus, which the SM are more than capable of.
It doesn't matter that the IN and the IG are "allied" forces, they're entirely separate, with entirely separate command structures and support systems. The IG depend upon the IN to move them from planet to planet, warzone to warzone, as designed by the High Lords following the Heresy while the IN depend on the IG to save the planets from which their crews, the food their crews eat, the materials that repair their ships, and all of that sort of thing comes from.
The point of this debate is not "SM vs the Adeptus Administratum", it's specifically between SM and the IG. In a ground war, denied certain aspects of their wargear, the SM don't have a hope of defeating the IG, unless they can cause a massive volcano to erupt underneath the somehow, or have a rock from space fall on their heads.
I say the Space Marines win because the 'Guard' has no space assets (Imperial Navy has those) and no way to really deal with the multiple chapters of warships in orbit pounding them to oblivion.
Of course it's silly. This whole debate is silly. I said that 2 pages ago. However, if you read the OP, you'll note that neither the IG nor the SM are permitted to have fleet assets on hand. However, the IN is *not* part of the IG in the same way that a Battle Barge or a Strike Cruiser *is* part of a Chapter's assets.
Right, but at the same time they're not wholly separate either in the way the SM's or AdMech are either.
If it's silly that the IG doesn't fight without the IN, it's silly to assume that the SM are fighting without their Battle Barges and Strike Cruisers and other fleet assets... in which case the whole thing becomes nuts, because some Chapters command vast fleets and other ships, many of which outclass anything the IN has.
I never said the SM fleets shouldn't count, however even the largest SM fleets at best maybe two dozen capital ships (most are composed of roughly only a dozen capital ships) aren't a match in direct battle for sector battlegroup (of which, much like IG regiments, the numbers of which are uncountable) consisting of of 75+ vessels. SM vessels likewise aren't typically designed for fleet to fleet combat but rather orbital landing operations and bombardment, Lance weapons for instance are very rare amongst SM fleets and completely absent on almost all Strike Cruiser and Battle Barge vessels. This is by design following the Horus Heresy.
As I posted in my first response, if all of the IG (and just the IG) went to war with all of the SM and everything their Chapters could bring, the SM would win without putting boots on the ground, because the IG lacks space-faring vehicles, and the SM do not. They'd simply glass the planet, or hit it with a Cyclonic Torpedo, or use some other tool of Exterminatus, which the SM are more than capable of.
which discounts any possibility of anti-orbital defenses and things like nuclear and vortex weapons which the IG do possess. The Citadel of Vraks for example, a minor depot world, was so well defended that no Space Marine chapter would attempt to take it.
It doesn't matter that the IN and the IG are "allied" forces, they're entirely separate, with entirely separate command structures and support systems.
Again, no they are not separate. Their command structures are joined at the strategic level through the Adeptus Munitorum which administers, supplies, and supports both.
The point of this debate is not "SM vs the Adeptus Administratum", it's specifically between SM and the IG
Which necessarily includes the IN, unless we only want to count SM's as well in SM forces and not the tens of thousands of Chapter Thralls which form pretty much the entirety of SM naval forces, as the marines on board are just that, marines, for boarding and landing operations, not crewmen or permanent ship officers typically.
Farseer Faenyin wrote: I say the Space Marines win because the 'Guard' has no space assets (Imperial Navy has those) and no way to really deal with the multiple chapters of warships in orbit pounding them to oblivion.
Many worlds have extensive anti-orbital defense networks able to blast ships out of the sky. The very minor depot world of Vraks was so heavily fortified that when it rebelled no Space Marine chapter would take the job, it wasn't until the IG had landed in force and besieged the planet for years that the SM's showed up, landed far away from the combat zone, and advanced on the ground to attack a spaceport many miles from the primary battle lines.
The point of this debate is not "SM vs the Adeptus Administratum", it's specifically between SM and the IG
Which necessarily includes the IN, unless we only want to count SM's as well in SM forces and not the tens of thousands of Chapter Thralls which form pretty much the entirety of SM naval forces, as the marines on board are just that, marines, for boarding and landing operations, not crewmen or permanent ship officers typically.
No it doesn't. The IG don't have a fleet like the SM do. SM fleet and ground forces are one and the same. They are all chapter assets. IG are merely transported to warzone in mass conveyors that belong to the IN, like a taxi service. SM own there strikes cruisers, battle barges and escorts.
The thread is titled 'Space Marines VS Imperial Guard' Not Space Marines VS The Adeptus Administratum.
The OP states that the SM don't get their fleets, and the IG doesn't get the Navy:
OP wrote:
This huge war would be limited to the IG only using actual IG units, with no support from the navy, except for valkyries and vendettas. They would also have the support of all the tank, heavy weapon, and infantry regiments known. So basically, the guard would get everything in the IG codex, on a scale to match how many of them there are.
The Space Marines would get each member from every known loyalist chapter, including the uncounted 10,000+ each Black Templars and Space Wolves, they would also get all blood angels allies and Legion of the Damned support. The SM would get terminators, all their ground tanks, and thunderhawks, stormravens, and all other SM aircraft.
Emphasis mine.
I never said the SM fleets shouldn't count, however even the largest SM fleets at best maybe two dozen capital ships (most are composed of roughly only a dozen capital ships) aren't a match in direct battle for sector battlegroup (of which, much like IG regiments, the numbers of which are uncountable) consisting of of 75+ vessels. SM vessels likewise aren't typically designed for fleet to fleet combat but rather orbital landing operations and bombardment, Lance weapons for instance are very rare amongst SM fleets and completely absent on almost all Strike Cruiser and Battle Barge vessels. This is by design following the Horus Heresy.
The Space Wolves would beg to differ, having defeated an entire Inquisitorial battlefleet themselves. The Black Templars, of course, field several fleets, containing at least 9 Strike Cruisers or Battle Barges.
The Battle-Barge, probably the most iconic of a Space Marine's naval asset, is noted as being one of the most devastating ships the Imperium can field, being both heavily armed and armored, carrying bombardment cannons, lances and torpedoes.
... the Space Marines utterly do not require the IN for anything.
Which necessarily includes the IN, unless we only want to count SM's as well in SM forces and not the tens of thousands of Chapter Thralls which form pretty much the entirety of SM naval forces, as the marines on board are just that, marines, for boarding and landing operations, not crewmen or permanent ship officers typically.
As someone told me when I first mentioned glassing the planet... read the OP.
Psienesis wrote: the SM would win without putting boots on the ground
They'd never live it down. The Adeptus Astartes afraid to go & fight? Against ordinary weak humans? And people say the Guard are cowardly & run away - at least they turn up to the battlefield!
The Wolves and similarly assault-oriented Chapters would probably gripe, some of the more tactically-minded Chapters, sitting on a Battle Barge with Cyclonic Torpedoes loaded would just be "You guys, CHILL! We got this."
uk_crow wrote:
No it doesn't. The IG don't have a fleet like the SM do. SM fleet and ground forces are one and the same. They are all chapter assets. IG are merely transported to warzone in mass conveyors that belong to the IN, like a taxi service. SM own there strikes cruisers, battle barges and escorts.
The thread is titled 'Space Marines VS Imperial Guard' Not Space Marines VS The Adeptus Administratum.
Munitorum actually, but by the same token, we can make the same distinction here, Thralls are not Space Marines, and the title is Space Marines vs Imperial Guard. If we're including forces that are not composed of Space Marine but are required for their fleets to work and the get them from A to B, then doing so makes sense for the IG as well, and if we're discounting them for the IG then it makes sense to do the same for the Space Marines.
The OP has also said 'no space cruisers'.
In which case the point of cyclonic torpedoes/exterminatus/etc is moot.
Psienesis wrote: The OP states that the SM don't get their fleets, and the IG doesn't get the Navy:
Right, I was just addressing that if we're bringing cyclonic torpedoes and the like into it, then the IN gets to come in as well.
Emphasis mine.
Right, however such aircraft are very limited in number, each chapter having a few dozen such attack craft/dropships (you can fit an entire chapter into 34 Thunderhawks), and starships are not aircraft. An IG regiment of 8000 troops would need ~670 Valkyries/Vendettas for full air mobility, and even somehow assuming a somewhat exaggerated 10-1 kill ratio in favor of the SM's, the IG regiment would be fielding twice that.
The Space Wolves would beg to differ, having defeated an entire Inquisitorial battlefleet themselves.
An Inquisitorial attack fleet != an Imperial Navy Sector Battlegroup. This is an important distinction.
The Black Templars, of course, field several fleets, containing at least 9 Strike Cruisers or Battle Barges.
Each of which is roughly equivalent to a general chapter fleet. So, combined as one, the largest SM fleet might match an IN sector battlegroup for numbers. There are however uncountable Sector Battlegroups (given the size that BFG states for a sector, if there is only one Imperial sector battlegroup for every 1,000 possible sectors in the galaxy given that the Imperium is spread thin, we're still talking 100,000+ sector battlegroups plus Segmentum reserves, and only 1000 SM fleets, most of which are only a dozen or so vessels strong)
This is why GW's fluff when analyzed against the numbers they give, make so little sense
The Battle-Barge, probably the most iconic of a Space Marine's naval asset, is noted as being one of the most devastating ships the Imperium can field, being both heavily armed and armored, carrying bombardment cannons, lances and torpedoes.
Indeed, they are very powerful ships, the only type of SM capital ship generally able to fight against an IN vessel of similar class, Lances however are very rare armament on them.
The generic Battle Barge meant to represent the most commonly fielded classes for the vast majority of chapters in Battlefleet gothic do not have Lance weapons at all, only the BFG equivalent of "Special Character" ships get Lances amongst SM fleets, along with small escort vessels that are typically built around a single lance weapon that are common to both the IN and SM fleets (though often limited in number in SM fleets).
SM fleets are mostly composed of Strike Cruisers, which, while well armored and swift, lack the raw firepower and resiliency of Imperial Navy cruisers (hence why in BFG, a Strike Cruiser has 6 Hit Points and a speed of 25cm, an Imperial Navy cruiser has 8 Hit Points and a speed of 20cm and cost more points than SM Strike Cruisers)
... the Space Marines utterly do not require the IN for anything.
I never said they did...but at the same time, they don't generally fight large scale fleet battles on their own, SM space battles are usually fairly small affairs involving only a few vessels, where they usually attempt to get into boarding range.
Fundamentally I guess what I'm really getting at is that GW's fluff stops making any sort of sense if you really start looking at it, because if their numbers are accurate, the Astartes are so numerically insignificant that even with their superhuman powers they are too few to make an impact, and if they are as important as portrayed, the numbers are grossly incorrect.
... or they're far more badass than depicted on the table, and they really are capable of pacifying an entire world with 5 guys. I don't particularly believe that, but I can see how it could be done. If your Lord Generals and such keep getting sniped by Scouts, or teleport-Deep Striking Terminators, who teleport away before any serious response can be mounted, this is a war that could go on for a very long time.
This will, of course, depend on deployment and terrain. If the SM are able to wage a guerrilla-style campaign in terrain that favors rapid infantry movement and limits the effectiveness of air-power and artillery (such as mountains made of space-rocks that doesn't shatter easily), while maintaining well-hidden bases for resupply and stationary devices (such as teleportariums)... it might take them awhile, but they may eventually bleed the IG dry of any leadership potential, not to mention the effect such actions has on morale. Not every IG regiment is Cadian or Catachan, after all.
With the Space Wolf thing, it is noted that the Inquisition brought an entire Battlefleet. The Inquisition doesn't really build its own ships, not to that degree, it simply snaps its fingers and has the Navy ship them around somewhere (or anyone else with a ship, for that matter). Point is, we're not told, specifically, how large the fleet was supposed to be, but it is implied to be a significant show of force, as the plan was to either force the Wolves into a Penitent Crusade, or raze Fenris. Neither happened.
It is noted, however, that a Battlefleet is the largest operational organization that the IN has. This would suggest that it is, in fact, synonymous with a Sector Fleet.... and one Chapter, not particularly known for its fleet, fought it to a standstill. It is also noted that SM spacecraft tend to be older, and possess better equipment than more-modern Naval vessels, due to technical degradation prevalent within the IoM and the AdMech. Pre-Heresy ships being better than Post-Heresy and so forth. The Navy, of course, possesses its own relics from the Heresy, but it remains to be seen if such exist in numbers able to compete with the relics the SM possess.
A) There's more Lord-Generals than there are SM, everytime they lose a man, its a bigger blow than losing the General
B) Said Generals are likely to be in Baneblades or Ordinatuses/ii (of which there are far more than SM, again), they won't be waiting to be shot, furthermore, the IG can afford to handle a meltagun to every bodyguard protecting the Generals. Sniper shots? Blanket the area with Vortex missiles
C) No fleet means no teleportation, any base can simply be wished away by the ridiculous ordnance the IG will bring to bear
Hunterindarkness wrote: If we are going by the IG codex, a million to 1 in favor of the IG, is being lenient. I do not char if its a alpha level psyker, if its outnumber 20 to 1 it's dead. You simply can only hold back so much and pull out so much power, the tide the IG can throw would down the Librarians plain and simple. They simply could never, ever kill enough to even slow the IGdow before they themselves are killed.
This point of view is the product of lack of knowledge regarding the fluff, to be honest. An Alpha Plus level psyker can telepathically assert dominance over millions and more, if a telepath. But that is beside the point.
Why couldn't they? They'd possess more human psychic power concentrated in a single place than anywhere else the galaxy has ever seen, with the arguable exception of the Council of Nikaea (The Emperor, Magnus, and Malcador all in one place? Along with many Librarians, Chief Librarians, and other Primarchs in attendance? Oh my).
A kine shield powered by a number of psykers so many Librarians would be effectively impervious to Imperial Guard artillery, considering the kine shields of single sorcerers in the Battle of the Fang were able to easily soak up the punishment of the gun batteries, salvos, and Rune Priest tempests of the Space Wolves at the Fang, aka the second most well-defended fortress in the galaxy. Oh, and of course the standard city-wide Thousand Son kine shield could withstand a salvo that glassed and vaporised literally everywhere else on the surface of Prospero. No weapon fielded by the Imperial Guard, not even stuff like Deathstrike Missiles, is that powerful.
And of course, offensively, two Rune Priests were able to conjure storms that could envelop and blast the invading armies on the entire mountain in the Battle of the Fang, blasting hundreds of soldiers with single bolts, destroying armor as though it were cheese, etc. Now multiply that number of psykers by, oh, let's say five thousand or so?
A kine shield with phalanxes of Space Marines on the outer rims to meet invading Imperial Guard would be devastating. Even vastly outnumbered, the Marines would cut through the Imperial Guard like cheese in close combat. They did the same to the Orks, far more physically capable foes, at Helsreach, after all.
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gpfunk wrote: Back on topic. I love threads like these. They're basically fan threads or "I want to see this faction win so I am going to gerryrig a situation in which they have an unbeatable advantage." Have the fight on a single planet? IG win, without question. Have the fight over many planets in many systems requiring extensive and fluid travel between battlezones? The Space Marines wipe the floor and take it without trying.
That's the beauty of the situation. Despite the thread obviously being tailored to favor the Imperial Guard, the Space Marines can still win.
Puny guardsmen simply are not as relevant as the fans would like.
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Billagio wrote: Wasnt the Kine shield eventually broken by the orbital bombardment? yeah the IG dont have the navy to do that in this battle, but they have probably more baneblades than marines and more LRBTs and Artillery than marines x3
No, the kine shield was never broken, it was just dropped by the Thousand Sons when the Space Wolves began to land, it no longer serving a point.
Also, orbital bombardment is several orders of magnitude more powerful than any weapon the Imperial Guard can bring to bear.
Baneblades? LRBTs? Artillery? It would be like trying to kill Superman with a super soaker.
Vaktathi wrote: In a straight up fight between the Imperial Guard and the Space Marines, the Space Marines would be obliterated in a matter of seconds.
Most codex given estimates of the power is generally 1 Space Marine for every 10-12 Guardsmen.
No, that is a quote by Dorn latched onto by IG fans in lieu of any actual evidence. The actual fluff depicts stuff like 100 Space Wolves in the Battle of the Fang slaughtering two million Spireguard, with everyone present recognising the present Thousand Sons (Numbering something like seven hundred total) being the real threat. Or the Black Templars in Helsreach butchering hundreds of times their number in Orks, mostly in close combat. That isn't even counting "hero" units, of which Space Marines have more of them, and have more powerful. Mephiston for example slaughters Carnifexes with all the ease Space Marines use to slaughter human beings.
There are one million Space Marines, equivalent to 10-12 million guardsmen.
Read above.
Now, as cited in the rulebook and IG codex, there are *billions* of IG regiments, each consisting of thousands of guardsmen. Assuming the plural "billions" only means 2 billion, and they're all say an average size equal to that of the Cadian 8th, we get 16,000,000,000,000 (sixteen trillion guardsmen), or about 16,000,000 guardsmen per Space Marine. This means that the entirety of the Adeptus Astartes is worth 1/1,333,333.33 of the Imperial Guard's fighting strength.
Once more, only if your entire argument hinges on a fallible statement by a fallible character who is also a raging psychotic clown car of a man.
Even if you mulitply that to ridiculous levels, say each SM is worth 100, 1000, hell lets say 10,000 guardsmen (as...some are wont to do) to account for Spess Mahreen AWSEOMEPOWER or to account for various force multipliers, the Space Marines are equivalent to 0.015% of the Imperial Guard's fighting strength.
Actually the Librarians basically sweep the field. They raze the planet to ash. So, I'd say some Space Marines are the equivalent of, say, eight billion guardsmen.
Now, yes, Space Marines have their force multipliers, they have fast orbital insertions, they are genetically engineered super soldiers and whatnot, but they lack heavy/long range artillery short of orbital bombardment. they generally lack air superiority aircraft and AA capabilities, at least in quantity. The IG will be inextricably linked with the IN which is more than capable of overpowering SM fleets (especially as the IN is designed for fleet to fleet combat and SM fleets are designed for planetary assault and by codex law restricted from certain types of vessels). The IG also has its own force multipliers, they have *real* artillery and lots of it, lots of armor, and significantly more AA weapons and the IN has tons of aircraft.
They have psykers that can create hurricanes that cover huge mountain ranges on a planet that is nothing but mountain ranges. That's fairly decent as far as long range artillery goes.
Also, read the OP.
In a straight up war between the IG and the Space Marines, it wouldn't stand a blink of a chance.
The entirety of the Space Marines have the military value of a few hours worth of Imperial Guard daily recruitment.
You sure do love repeating that in basically every thread you post in.
TL;DR Space Marines work because 40k is a Space Fantasy setting where they don't have to explain things because...magic. Space Marines stop working once you start looking at them from any realistic perspective.
You didn't write the fluff, and 40k isn't written from a realistic perspective, and never has been.
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Bobthehero wrote: The IG gets psyker too, a lot more psykers, yay they get planet-devastating powers and psychic plot-shield too, the end.
Now you just need to provide evidence of Imperial Guard Sanctioned Psykers being even a hundredth of the level of some of the Space Marine psykers.
I'll let big red do the talking for me:
"We often say that the mind of man is his greatest weapon. Think how much greater then the mind of a Space Marine must be?"
- Magnus the Red
A hundreth? There'll be a solid 1000x more normal psyker, combine power, obtain dead SM.
Assuming 3 Librarians and 1 Chief librarian per chapter (correct me if I am wrong) that's about 4 million normal psyskers for the IG, I think that's stupidly low.
Well if we could have a number that tells us the percentage of regular psykers, we'd get a rough idea of how many of them there are.
Regardless, I am not conviced about all that shielding shenanigans, if anyone knows about it, why aren't they using it in 40k, why is it only a Legion that turned traitor that uses it. If anything the knowledge of it is lost for the Loyalist.
Edit: how many ships/how long was the orbital bombardement? You said a salvo? Because I am pretty sure all those Ordance weapons are going to do far more damage than just a salvo, we're talking about billions of shells/nuclear missiles/vortex missiles/missiles etc etc
Void__Dragon wrote: [
This point of view is the product of lack of knowledge regarding the fluff, to be honest. An Alpha Plus level psyker can telepathically assert dominance over millions and more, if a telepath. But that is beside the point.
.
This is a damned stupid thing to say in 40k as Fluff changes by book and writer. One an Alpha level may do that in another it can't. What we do know is SM total number, they simply can not have a large number of psykers , where the IG can. even if your alphas's can control a million... big freaking deal. A million isn't even a drop in the bucket and even less when countermanded by the millions of IG psykers.
We know from the BL book five Beta level pykers can kill an alpha and five much lower levels can kill a beta. NUmbers always matter,
Void__Dragon wrote:
No, that is a quote by Dorn latched onto by IG fans in lieu of any actual evidence.
It's a quote by Dorn that's been in the game loooooong before Abnett started writing space marines like gak. Ward's codex also references 1-12 ratio, not far off. It's a direct quote from a Space Marine primarch on the capabilities of his troops, unless you've got something to refute it, it seems pretty solid.
The actual fluff depicts stuff like 100 Space Wolves in the Battle of the Fang slaughtering two million Spireguard with everyone present recognising the present Thousand Sons (Numbering something like seven hundred total) being the real threat.
We're referencing the Abnett book here right, the same guy who writes about how a Guardsmen blows open Dreadnoughts with overcharged lasgun power packs, has a few guardsmen with a commissar and some tribesmen with blowdarts wipe out a squad of Chaos Space Marines, and a single Tac squad of Space Marines successfully slaughter thousands of Dark Eldar at close quarters? You'll excuse me if I don't take references to his work at face value.
Or the Black Templars in Helsreach butchering hundreds of times their number in Orks, mostly in close combat.
The same Helsreach where there were thousands of Steel Legion and 19 Titans present?
That isn't even counting "hero" units, of which Space Marines have more of them, and have more powerful. Mephiston for example slaughters Carnifexes with all the ease Space Marines use to slaughter human beings.
Fluff reference here or tabletop? Because tabletop the damn guy's got exaggerated stats near to a Primarch.
Once more, only if your entire argument hinges on a fallible statement by a fallible character who is also a raging psychotic clown car of a man.
Dorn? since when?
Actually the Librarians basically sweep the field. They raze the planet to ash. So, I'd say some Space Marines are the equivalent of, say, eight billion guardsmen.
Huh? Methinks we're drinking a bit much of the SPess Muhreen awesome juju-juice here. Pretty much no Librarians are that powerful, especially not on their own (I certainly can't think of or find any fluff to support that sort of power), and it's not like the Imperial Guard doesn't have psykers of their own. Plus, long range artillery with ranges measured in dozens of miles rather makes a mockery of most psykers.
On top of that, Space Marine psykers are even rarer than normal psykers, given the high rate of failure in training.
They have psykers that can create hurricanes that cover huge mountain ranges on a planet that is nothing but mountain ranges. That's fairly decent as far as long range artillery goes.
And if the Space Marines have them, the IG do too. There's nothing anywhere that says SM psykers are more powerful than those found outside the Space Marines, at least in terms of psychic ability. The IG will however utilize psykers that wouldn't make it through SM training.
You sure do love repeating that in basically every thread you post in.
And until you can find some basis for refuting it, the point stands I showed the basis for such a conclusion and spelled it out fairly clearly, the math is all there. Aside from "zomg psykers just go and kill 'em all" you haven't offered any counter-point.
You didn't write the fluff, and 40k isn't written from a realistic perspective, and never has been.
It's obvious I've touched a nerve here and you're taking my posts personally. I never claimed either of these things, rather I was bringing particular attention to the latter half and how 40k is Space Fantasy where everything is Just Because.
Now you just need to provide evidence of Imperial Guard Sanctioned Psykers being even a hundredth of the level of some of the Space Marine psykers.
Provide evidence that Space Marine psykers are notably more powerful than IG psykers...
I'll let big red do the talking for me:
"We often say that the mind of man is his greatest weapon. Think how much greater then the mind of a Space Marine must be?"
- Magnus the Red
And feel free to find where in any SM fluff it shows that Space Marines how Space Marines are made more intelligent and/or psychically powerful than their normal human counterparts. I've never found it, because the Space Marine conversion process doesn't touch *any of that stuff.
Void__Dragon wrote: There are more ranks in the Librarius department than Librarian and Chief Librarian. There is no "standard" size.
Regardless, they're rare and many chapters have no Librarians at all.
Where are the official numbers for the Sanctioned Psykers of the Imperial Guard?
There aren't any. There isn't an exact number of Regiments either. However we are told that there is usually ~1 psyker per 10,000 humans, most of which meet bad fates, assuming 1 in 1,000 of those one-in-ten thousand (in other words, one in a million people) are usable as battlefield psykers, going back to my previous math and assuming an average population of 7 billion (modern day earth's population) on each of the Imperium's ~1 million worlds, that gives us 700,000,000 (yes, seven hundred million) battlefield psykers. So...lets assume *very* generously that each SM chapter has 4 Librarians, beating out the above odds by several orders of magnitude. That means roughly, 4,000 Space Marine Librarians and nearly 200,000 IG battle psykers per Space Marine Librarian
Oh, and you've entirely overlooked the chapter consisting solely of psychic super marines.
And nowhere in *any* of their fluff are they portrayed as being as even a tiny fraction powerful as you're making out Librarians to be, especially the non-Librarian rank and file.
Bobthehero wrote: Well if we could have a number that tells us the percentage of regular psykers, we'd get a rough idea of how many of them there are.
There is none, to my recollection.
Regardless, I am not conviced about all that shielding shenanigans, if anyone knows about it, why aren't they using it in 40k, why is it only a Legion that turned traitor that uses it. If anything the knowledge of it is lost for the Loyalist.
What, kine shields? That's a basic telekinetic power. The Grey Knights have also made great use of them in the First War for Armageddon, that I recall.
The difference is rarely do you see more than one or two Librarians in a single engagement. There are thousands here now.
Edit: how many ships/how long was the orbital bombardement? You said a salvo? Because I am pretty sure all those Ordance weapons are going to do far more damage than just a salvo, we're talking about billions of shells/nuclear missiles/vortex missiles/missiles etc etc
It was the entire Space Wolves Legion, backed up by the Custodes and the Sisters of Silence. So, a fleet larger than any Space Marine fleet in existence, save maybe the Black Templars.
A time frame is not given, but it is referred to as "one of the most sustained and powerful bombardments ever unleashed in the history of the Imperium.".
And yes, the bombardment did take quite a toll on the psykers powering it, but this was the city's never-lowering defense, not actively being held in combat. And it still held up against sustained fire from a force far greater than any the Imperial Guard might muster.
I don't think the marines would win in the end, but I don't think they would go down in such a whitewash. They still will hold air superiority to some extent due to the Thunderhawks not to mention if they have Storm Ravens and Stormtalons for escorts. They could to some extent swat away and in the case of Thunderhawks absorb any damage in aerial combat by the Valkyries and Vendettas (being the only air assets the guard have) at this point if the marines just keep on the move staying away from the guards artillery, the thunderhawks etc could then start bombing/strafing such artillery and on the ground air defense, they can then concentrate on the Armour and super heavies which could be under a certain amount of risk by this point of fast ground attacks by Land Raiders and Predators.
Like I said, I think at this point the marines would start to lose in a war of attrition but I don't think they would go down quietly or as fast as people are suggesting.
Of course, this is all dependent on the marines being constantly able to deploy their air power on the move, without space/air ports for resupply as lets face it, if the guard didn't just throw men and armour at such installations no matter the defenses set up their from the get go, they deserve to lose.
Lastly, the marines should have their fleets in this debate really, if you want to stop their power though, just ban them from performing exterminatus. I'm sure the guard would have some sort of portable anti-orbital defense in their whacky armories. Some tech priest at some point must have built a super heavy able to power a defense array of some sort.
Vaktathi wrote: It's a quote by Dorn that's been in the game loooooong before Abnett started writing space marines like gak. Ward's codex also references 1-12 ratio, not far off. It's a direct quote from a Space Marine primarch on the capabilities of his troops, unless you've got something to refute it, it seems pretty solid.
The fluff where the Space Marines operate with far greater efficiency than 1:12 refutes it actually.
Like that time 700 Marines managed to fight through and defeat "tens of thousands of Necrons" (A serious lowball estimate, that would make the corridors of the World Engine fething barren, which is nonsense considering the amount of fighting the Astral Knights are said to have endured) and blew up the World Engine.
The lowliest Necron is far more formidable than the average Imperial Guardsman.
We're referencing the Abnett book here right, the same guy who writes about how a Guardsmen blows open Dreadnoughts with overcharged lasgun power packs, has a few guardsmen with a commissar and some tribesmen with blowdarts wipe out a squad of Chaos Space Marines, and a single Tac squad of Space Marines successfully slaughter thousands of Dark Eldar at close quarters? You'll excuse me if I don't take references to his work at face value.
Your arrogance is made all the more amusing by the fact that Abnett did not write Battle of the Fang. Though he did write Bjorn romping an army that could "conquer nations". Oh, and the Thousand Sons attacking the Space Wolves with a vastly larger force including many mortal soldiers (Their "levies") harkens back to 2e.
The same Helsreach where there were thousands of Steel Legion and 19 Titans present?
So I don't think you really read what I wrote.
What the Steel Legion and Titans did is irrelevant. What is relevant is that Black Templars were romping through the Orks by the hundreds. What is relevant is that after five days of the siege, after countless Ork and IG casualties, only then did a Black Templar fall.
Fluff reference here or tabletop? Because tabletop the damn guy's got exaggerated stats near to a Primarch.
There really isn't a difference though.
In the fluff, he has torn Carnifexes to pieces with his bare hands.
No really:
Spoiler:
Only where Mephiston fights do the forces of humanity
hold. In those two dreadful weeks, the Librarian proves his
might time and time again, never once sleeping or taking
rest, always carrying the fight to the alien invaders, though
even his Battle-Brothers are weary to the bone. His deeds are
legend. At the Chapel of the Emperor's Repose, Mephiston
tears a Carnifex to ichor-stained shreds with his bare hands.
He holds the ruined entrance to the filtration plant for six
hours without aid. And in the final hours of that terrible
invasion, he cleaves his way alone through the Hive Mind
brood that spearheads the assault, laying low the vile Hive
Tyrant and all his foul guardians before he is himself struck
down by a Trygon.
Mat Ward all up in this bitch.
Dorn? since when?
The man's a lunatic, albeit I am pretty sure he was not intended to be written as one.
But stuff like the Iron Cage, his treatment of his chapter's Librarians (Locking them all in a basement on the Phalanx), his whining about having to make the Imperial Palace ugly to make it a defensible position (Srsly, lol), he's... Much more subtly mentally ill than some of his brothers.
Huh? Methinks we're drinking a bit much of the SPess Muhreen awesome juju-juice here. Pretty much no Librarians are that powerful, especially not on their own (I certainly can't think of or find any fluff to support that sort of power), and it's not like the Imperial Guard doesn't have psykers of their own. Plus, long range artillery with ranges measured in dozens of miles rather makes a mockery of most psykers.
Tell that to the Thousand Sons and their kine shields which withstood ordinance that can destroy a planet from hundreds of thousands of kilometers away.
In the Dark Angels codex, a single Salamander Librarian does this:
"Librarian Hestion summoned a storm of his own, a raging inferno in the shape of a flaming drake that tore the Ravagers out of the sky one by one. The Forgehammer had suffered terribly, but it was free from the Dark City's bonds once more. With a great shuddering roar, the strike cruiser began its ascent to freedom."
Fairly impressive, no?
Also, that very battle is also an example of Space Marines proving capable of holding off against a vastly numerically superior foe. And of course, Dark Eldar are more formidable one on one than Guardsmen as well.
On top of that, Space Marine psykers are even rarer than normal psykers, given the high rate of failure in training.
Perhaps, does the Imperial Guard have cited numbers for their Sanctioned Psykers?
And if the Space Marines have them, the IG do too. There's nothing anywhere that says SM psykers are more powerful than those found outside the Space Marines, at least in terms of psychic ability. The IG will however utilize psykers that wouldn't make it through SM training.
Magnus the Red seems to disagree with you. I'd like to believe the Primarch who founded and created the Librarius Department has some idea of the ability of a Space Marine psyker.
Also:
"In all of the Imperium there are few greater warrior-mystics, combining the prowess of the Adeptus Astartes with the steel discipline needed to contain and control their powers."
- Space Marine 5e codex, page 56
That seems to possibly imply that they are indeed a cut above the majority of the Imperium's psykers.
Oh, and actually, the 4e codex does state that many chapters delegate the "weaker psykers" in the Imperium (Explicitly noted not to be Space Marines) for "more mundane" tasks.
The Deathwatch core rulebook is even more explicit. On page 182, it is explicitly stated that of the psykers in the Imperium, none demonstrate the force of will or raw ability as the Librarians. While probably an exagerration IMO, this still fits under your criteria.
And until you can find some basis for refuting it, the point stands I showed the basis for such a conclusion and spelled it out fairly clearly, the math is all there. Aside from "zomg psykers just go and kill 'em all" you haven't offered any counter-point.
Well I have actually. I have cited several battles where the Space Marines did, in fact, operate far more efficiently than being the equal of "10-12 Imperial guardsmen".
You didn't write the fluff, and 40k isn't written from a realistic perspective, and never has been.
It's obvious I've touched a nerve here and you're taking my posts personally. I never claimed either of these things, rather I was bringing particular attention to the latter half and how 40k is Space Fantasy where everything is Just Because.
Provide evidence that Space Marine psykers are notably more powerful than IG psykers...
Read above my friend.
I could also point out the vast disparity in their feats of psychic prowess, but that might be a tad bit unfair, considering the relatively less exposure Sanctioned psykers have.
And feel free to find where in any SM fluff it shows that Space Marines how Space Marines are made more intelligent and/or psychically powerful than their normal human counterparts. I've never found it, because the Space Marine conversion process doesn't touch *any of that stuff.
Doesn't it?
They are trained to have forces of will greater than the vast majority of mortal men, which directly influences psychic ability.
They are also tutored and their minds molded by some of the finest training the Imperium has to offer.
It isn't a physical implant like the Larraman's gland or whatever, but they are designed to be better than mortals in every way, to varying extents.
Which is not to say that every Space Marine is a better psyker or more intelligent than every mortal, but we are speaking of averages.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vaktathi wrote: Regardless, they're rare and many chapters have no Librarians at all.
I can think of exactly one. The Black Templars. Any others?
There aren't any. There isn't an exact number of Regiments either. However we are told that there is usually ~1 psyker per 10,000 humans, most of which meet bad fates, assuming 1 in 1,000 of those one-in-ten thousand (in other words, one in a million people) are usable as battlefield psykers, going back to my previous math and assuming an average population of 7 billion (modern day earth's population) on each of the Imperium's ~1 million worlds, that gives us 700,000,000 (yes, seven hundred million) battlefield psykers. So...lets assume *very* generously that each SM chapter has 4 Librarians, beating out the above odds by several orders of magnitude. That means roughly, 4,000 Space Marine Librarians and nearly 200,000 IG battle psykers per Space Marine Librarian
Your analysis relies on quite a few assumptions.
The vast majority of human psykers are either fed to the Emperor or help maintain the Astronomicon, We are given no number, so no, I won't accept your blind assumption, sorry.
You also don't account for the psykers that get drafted to become Astropaths, or Inquisitors. Or Space Marines, for that matter.
And nowhere in *any* of their fluff are they portrayed as being as even a tiny fraction powerful as you're making out Librarians to be, especially the non-Librarian rank and file.
... Are you... Sure you want to make that claim?
The feats I've brought up in this thread happen to be less impressive than the feats of a single Grey Knight who I have taken pains to not mention.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hunterindarkness wrote: This is a damned stupid thing to say in 40k as Fluff changes by book and writer. One an Alpha level may do that in another it can't. What we do know is SM total number, they simply can not have a large number of psykers , where the IG can. even if your alphas's can control a million... big freaking deal. A million isn't even a drop in the bucket and even less when countermanded by the millions of IG psykers.
We know from the BL book five Beta level pykers can kill an alpha and five much lower levels can kill a beta. NUmbers always matter,
I don't doubt that the IG have more psykers than the Space Marines. What I do find odd is people trying to "prove" how much more psykers the IG "must" have.
Also, I am pretty sure no Librarians are alpha plus level psykers. Though they might overcome an alpha plus due to their greater training and ability at refining the power they have.
You've failed to notice I was digressing to address an off-topic claim I've made. Telepathy would indeed be a poor tactic to use on the IG in the long run. Kine shields, however, don't seem to be able to be "turned off" by enemy psykers.
Which BL book is that?
Also, Beta level psykers are almost invariably driven mentally unstable by their power. The vast, vast, vast, vast majority of Sanctioned Psykers would not be that powerful.
It's an established fact within the mythos that by channeling their power together, psykers can force-multiply their power, which is why 6 featless World Eaters librarians were able to wound and exhaust (though ultimately lose to) Lorgar of all fething people in a psychic dual in Betrayer.
If there's 16 trillion regiments, there would be a trillion+ sanctioned psykers- and this is assuming that only 1 out of every 10 regiments used them. This is also assuming (for the sake of giving the Astartes a fighting chance), that these regiments that use psykers only use primaris psykers, not battle-psyker squads, the latter of which are stated in the Guard codex to be much more common than primaris psykers, meaning that realistically there would even more sanctioned psykers than the number I'm using here. But hey, I'm going to low-ball the number of sanctioned psykers in the guard to as low as I can to give the Space Marines a chance.
So, after all that low-balling, you're looking at ~1 trillion sanctioned psykers versus... what? 20000 librarians? Let's high-ball that number and assume that every chapter has 30 librarians, that's a fair number considering that the Ultramarines have 29, and everyone wants to be an Ultramarine. There are a few chapters that have more, but there are also a a few who have less or none at all, so let's stick to averages. So, 30 librarians times 1000 chapters equals 30,000 librarians.
1 trillion sanctioned-psykers versus 30,000 librarians means there are 33 million sanctioned-psykers for every one librarian.
Even if we assumed that each run-of-the-mill librarian is able to contend with a thousand sanctioned psykers in a psyker battle, the Librarians would still have no chance.
1 trillion sanctioned-psykers versus 30,000 librarians means there are 33 million sanctioned-psykers for every one librarian.
Even if we assumed that each run-of-the-mill librarian is able to contend with a thousand sanctioned psykers in a psyker battle, the Librarians would still have no chance.
I know this is meant to be purely marines vs guard, but the amount of daemon attacks that would happen to the guard with that amount of psykers would make that amount null and void, whilst killing a vast majority of the guardsmen and Armour whilst they were at it..
Obviously the same can be said of having 30000 librarians in the same place, but at least their are the grey knights + other daemon specialist chapters around to keep a watchful eye over them if they start popping up in their ranks.
The guard would be better off leaving the psykers at home for this one.
I'd wager the recruitment rate of the imperial guard is higher than the death toll could be even if all the space marine legions attacked them. That is, of course, if we were imagining that all this was happening on one galaxy sized flat plane, where guardsmen were pushed into a scrum of bodies once they were recruited.
But I will say for certain, the idea that one space marine is worth millions of guardsmen, is silly. Yesa, they may be in a surgical strike situation, where they can take out the heart of a rebellion that would take foot guardsmen millions of men to reach, but if it came to a fight between one space marine, and millions of guardsmen, the space marine would just get dogpiled under several tonnes of guardsmen, or else have so many lasshot's on him, that he would resemble molten swiss cheeze no matter what armour he wore.
I liken it to a man, versus ant's The ant's are no match for a man, he can crush them without even trying. But if the ant's swarm, he wouldn't be able to bat them away fast enough, and eventually they would get a few lucky bites on him to take him down.
Power armour, isn't 100% lasgun proof. A shot to a joint, will go through. And with thousand's of shot's a minute hitting you, some of those are going to hit vital weakpoints through sheer blind luck.
1 trillion sanctioned-psykers versus 30,000 librarians means there are 33 million sanctioned-psykers for every one librarian.
Even if we assumed that each run-of-the-mill librarian is able to contend with a thousand sanctioned psykers in a psyker battle, the Librarians would still have no chance.
I know this is meant to be purely marines vs guard, but the amount of daemon attacks that would happen to the guard with that amount of psykers would make that amount null and void, whilst killing a vast majority of the guardsmen and Armour whilst they were at it..
Obviously the same can be said of having 30000 librarians in the same place, but at least their are the grey knights + other daemon specialist chapters around to keep a watchful eye over them if they start popping up in their ranks.
The guard would be better off leaving the psykers at home for this one.
I'm assuming that it's a given that Perils of the Warp is not in play here, or Daemon interaction at all. Because even if there were zero psykers, the amount of bloodshed and war taking place on the planet would invoke a massive daemon incursion anyway. In that scenario, neither side wins. Even the Grey Knights for all their badassery couldn't deal with the magnitude of full on incurison that would happen with trillions of soldiers simultaneously fighting and dying across the planet.
Farseer Faenyin wrote: I say the Space Marines win because the 'Guard' has no space assets (Imperial Navy has those) and no way to really deal with the multiple chapters of warships in orbit pounding them to oblivion.
Many worlds have extensive anti-orbital defense networks able to blast ships out of the sky. The very minor depot world of Vraks was so heavily fortified that when it rebelled no Space Marine chapter would take the job, it wasn't until the IG had landed in force and besieged the planet for years that the SM's showed up, landed far away from the combat zone, and advanced on the ground to attack a spaceport many miles from the primary battle lines.
I have never seen anything saying that orbitial networks are manned by Imperial Guardsman. So for this situation, they would not apply. It is possible that they would man ground-based defense weapons and structures, but those are not enough to withstand sustained bombardment.
Also, Beta level psykers are almost invariably driven mentally unstable by their power. The vast, vast, vast, vast majority of Sanctioned Psykers would not be that powerful.
The Ones I recall well are the Ravonor and the Esienhorn books, both those show Psykers of those levels and how even they can be overwhelmed with Numbers of much weaker pyskers.
Void__Dragon wrote:
The fluff where the Space Marines operate with far greater efficiency than 1:12 refutes it actually.
And we've got fluff of Guardsmen doing incredible things as well, including engaging space marines, with fewer numbers than that. The only fluff sources that actually give direct comparisons note 10/12 for 1.
Like that time 700 Marines managed to fight through and defeat "tens of thousands of Necrons" (A serious lowball estimate, that would make the corridors of the World Engine fething barren, which is nonsense considering the amount of fighting the Astral Knights are said to have endured) and blew up the World Engine.
I don't recall that particular bit so I can't comment, what's it from?
Your arrogance is made all the more amusing by the fact that Abnett did not write Battle of the Fang.
Thought we were referring to the Siege of Prospero, that said, we're talking about a direct assault on a massive fortification replete with huge numbers of mortal soldiery on the side of the Space Wolves in the form of their Kaerls/Chapter Thralls. Direct assault on a fortified mountain, regardless of who is holding it, is going to result in appalling casualties. If you hollowed out Mt. Everest and fortified it over several hundred years and put a couple thousand defenders in it you could probably repel an attacking force several orders of magnitude without being genetically engineered super soldiers.
So I don't think you really read what I wrote.
What the Steel Legion and Titans did is irrelevant. What is relevant is that Black Templars were romping through the Orks by the hundreds. What is relevant is that after five days of the siege, after countless Ork and IG casualties, only then did a Black Templar fall.
Similar situation to the above, we're talking about a gigantic metal fortress being attacked by what amounts to soccer hooligans with meat cleavers and primitive guns they don't bother to aim, probably not hard to achieve a staggering kill ratio in that situation, genetically engineered super soldier or not. Same reason a dude with a single machine gun could stop a WW1 assault by an entire company of opposing infantry.
There really isn't a difference though.
In the fluff, he has torn Carnifexes to pieces with his bare hands.
No really:
Spoiler:
Only where Mephiston fights do the forces of humanity
hold. In those two dreadful weeks, the Librarian proves his
might time and time again, never once sleeping or taking
rest, always carrying the fight to the alien invaders, though
even his Battle-Brothers are weary to the bone. His deeds are
legend. At the Chapel of the Emperor's Repose, Mephiston
tears a Carnifex to ichor-stained shreds with his bare hands.
He holds the ruined entrance to the filtration plant for six
hours without aid. And in the final hours of that terrible
invasion, he cleaves his way alone through the Hive Mind
brood that spearheads the assault, laying low the vile Hive
Tyrant and all his foul guardians before he is himself struck
down by a Trygon.
Mat Ward all up in this bitch.
Hrm, don't remember that, one, but still, far from anything resembling a normal Space Marine, he's just a hair short of a Primarch, he's a unique one-off.
But stuff like the Iron Cage, his treatment of his chapter's Librarians (Locking them all in a basement on the Phalanx), his whining about having to make the Imperial Palace ugly to make it a defensible position (Srsly, lol), he's... Much more subtly mentally ill than some of his brothers.
Pretty much all the Space Marine Primarchs get weird at some point, Corax I'm pretty sure gets weirder
Tell that to the Thousand Sons and their kine shields which withstood ordinance that can destroy a planet from hundreds of thousands of kilometers away.
An abnormally large number of abnormally powerful and learned psykers operating together in a far bygone age ten thousand years before the present setting is a different situation.
The battle of Mordian was won against CSM's and Daemons by entirely human Imperial Guard after non-astartes Psykers in orbit becalmed the Warp breach without any Astartes support.
In the Dark Angels codex, a single Salamander Librarian does this:
"Librarian Hestion summoned a storm of his own, a raging inferno in the shape of a flaming drake that tore the Ravagers out of the sky one by one. The Forgehammer had suffered terribly, but it was free from the Dark City's bonds once more. With a great shuddering roar, the strike cruiser began its ascent to freedom."
Fairly impressive, no?
Sure it sounds impressive, but could very well just be like fancy talk for just picking them out of the sky with a relatively common power like Smite, where a couple Bolters may do the same job too. He's picking lightly armored troops one by one.
Also, that very battle is also an example of Space Marines proving capable of holding off against a vastly numerically superior foe. And of course, Dark Eldar are more formidable one on one than Guardsmen as well.
I don't have the book on my so I can't comment, but I'm assuming this is regarding the attack into Commoragh? Holding off an opponent from gaining entrance into a heavily armed warship with a hull several meters thick and extremely cramped interior conditions is about the best defensive situation one could ask for.
Magnus the Red seems to disagree with you.
His quote is vague in the extreme, far moreso than Dorn's.
Also:
"In all of the Imperium there are few greater warrior-mystics, combining the prowess of the Adeptus Astartes with the steel discipline needed to contain and control their powers."
- Space Marine 5e codex, page 56
Warrior-msytic is the keyword here, something impressive both martially *and* psychically. That I won't bother arguing, there aren't many psykers outside the Astartes that are impressive physical warriors *and* powerful psykers, but that doesn't mean that their psychic powers are any less formidable, it just means they aren't genetically engineered super soldiers.
Oh, and actually, the 4e codex does state that many chapters delegate the "weaker psykers" in the Imperium (Explicitly noted not to be Space Marines) for "more mundane" tasks.
They keep the best of their stock for themselves, nothing surprising there, that doesn't mean that psykers drawn from other sources can't be just as powerful.
There is absolutely nothing in the process of becoming a Space Marine that enhances intelligence or psychic potential that I can recall.
The Deathwatch core rulebook is even more explicit. On page 182, it is explicitly stated that of the psykers in the Imperium, none demonstrate the force of will or raw ability as the Librarians. While probably an exagerration IMO, this still fits under your criteria.
To be fair, Deathwatch is to 40k what 300 is to the real Battle of Thermopylae (especially where, before errata, basic Bolters were more destructive and effective against most targets than vehicle mounted heavy bolters and autocannon), and outside the RPG the Deathwatch is described as being composed of those exceptional and/or highly experienced even amongst the Space Marines, not representative of most.
And by the same token, Only War (the IG equivalent) mentions IG battle psykers razing entire armies with cascading walls of flame.
Such RPG's are intended to be about exceptional heroes above and beyond the pale of peers in the 40k universe, not representative of a typical norm (hence why even the lowliest of Inquisitorial Henchmen in Dark Heresy can miraculously survive a starship imploding or the like).
Well I have actually. I have cited several battles where the Space Marines did, in fact, operate far more efficiently than being the equal of "10-12 Imperial guardsmen".
Usually especially notable/not average battles involving sieges/entrenched positions where exceptional opposing force casualties would be expected, SM's or not.
Even then however, going back to the OP's original point, even if you assume 10-1, 100-1, 1,000-1, 10,000-1, the ratio of numbers is so skewed that unless each SM can be counted on to kill millions of guardsmen in open battle, it's not even going to be close, and in no example shown are the SM's anywhere near that powerful, and when weapons larger than small arms start coming into play, then the SM's resiliency becomes increasingly irrelevant. An SM isn't much better at surviving a Plasma gun blast than a Guardsmen, a squad of Space Marines isn't really any more resilient if hit by a heavy artillery barrage than a squad of Guardsmen are, and the guard has more artillery regiments alone than there are Space Marines.
I could also point out the vast disparity in their feats of psychic prowess, but that might be a tad bit unfair, considering the relatively less exposure Sanctioned psykers have.
I think in general that's the issue here. For instance, regarding Helsreach, we've got fluff on the SM's fighting the Orks, but how many hundreds of thousands of Orks died under the guns of the hive and the Titans? How many were slain by crew served heavy weapons and guardsmen in entrenched positions? Doesn't really get talked about.
Doesn't it?
They are trained to have forces of will greater than the vast majority of mortal men, which directly influences psychic ability.
I won't deny that, but so are most battle psykers too trained to wield a greater force of will, and naturally posses a greater force of will or they'd have ended up bound to the Astronominican or executed.
They are also tutored and their minds molded by some of the finest training the Imperium has to offer.
Agreed, but then so are most psykers sent to anything outside the astronominican or the adeptus astra telepathica, as they're the "less than 1% of the less than 1%".
Just by dint of birth and averages, the overwhelmingly vast majority of Psykers, 99.9% assuming each SM chapter holds 1 world out of a million (some more, some none, lets say a total of 1000 are under direct SM administration) are not born anywhere where they'd even have the chance to try and get anywhere near Space Marines, much less be recruited. Out of that 99.9%, surely there must be more, and more powerful psykers, than the few that manage to be born under the 0.1% under the control of the Space Marines.
I can think of exactly one. The Black Templars. Any others?
The Marines Malevolent off the top of my head.
Your analysis relies on quite a few assumptions.
The vast majority of human psykers are either fed to the Emperor or help maintain the Astronomicon, We are given no number, so no, I won't accept your blind assumption, sorry.
You also don't account for the psykers that get drafted to become Astropaths, or Inquisitors. Or Space Marines, for that matter.
Except that I did.
I already stated the assumption that only one out of every thousand human psykers is assigned as an IG battle psyker. I'm already assuming 99.9% are fed to the Emperor or diverted to things like the Adeptus Astra Telepathica or the Inquisition.
Even if we cut that down by a factor of ten again, 99.99% go somewhere else other than the IG, that's still 20,000 IG battle psykers for each space marine Librarian or about 70 per Space Marine. Another factor of ten, assuming only one in every 100,000 non-astartes psykers is used as an IG battle psyker (and meaning only 1 regiment in several *thousand* will have a single Psyker at all), you're still talking almost 2,000 battle psykers per Space Marine Librarian, or about 7 IG battle Psykers per Space Marine
... Are you... Sure you want to make that claim?
The feats I've brought up in this thread happen to be less impressive than the feats of a single Grey Knight who I have taken pains to not mention.
The big guy who smashes things with his sword? He's shown no such psychic potential as to be able to raze mortal armies with his psychic powers, his feats are largely martial. And certainly the vast majority of GK's show no such psychic might.
Farseer Faenyin wrote:
I have never seen anything saying that orbitial networks are manned by Imperial Guardsman. So for this situation, they would not apply.
Sure they do, and not all anti-starship defenses are in space. Cadia for example has lots of orbital and ground based anti-orbital defenses manned by IG and PDF troops
My, it's a little warm in here. On the surface of things, the IG is the obvious choice of victor due to sheer numbers. However, there are other matters to consider. If all these forces are simply dropped onto a planet and maybe given a few days to prep and are given no further help, I'd say the IG would struggle to win. Why?
They would starve themselves out long before they could finish off the space marines. The logistics of supporting so many billions of troops much less maneuvering them into combat would be virtually impossible to manage. Only a tiny percentage of IG at any time would be able to bear its weight on the battle, while the space marines could conceivably bring their entire force to bear. In a straight up war of attrition the IG couldn't lose…except the clock is ticking more quickly for them. Cutting off the umbilical cord of off world support cripples the IG in the long run, not the space marines. Ironically, the IG is known for its sieges and long drawn campaigns while the space marines are noted for their short but intense conflicts, but forcing the ENTIRE IG on to ONE planet will eventually destroy them under their own weight.
amanita wrote: My, it's a little warm in here. On the surface of things, the IG is the obvious choice of victor due to sheer numbers. However, there are other matters to consider. If all these forces are simply dropped onto a planet and maybe given a few days to prep and are given no further help, I'd say the IG would struggle to win. Why?
They would starve themselves out long before they could finish off the space marines. The logistics of supporting so many billions of troops much less maneuvering them into combat would be virtually impossible to manage. Only a tiny percentage of IG at any time would be able to bear its weight on the battle, while the space marines could conceivably bring their entire force to bear. In a straight up war of attrition the IG couldn't lose…except the clock is ticking more quickly for them. Cutting off the umbilical cord of off world support cripples the IG in the long run, not the space marines. Ironically, the IG is known for its sieges and long drawn campaigns while the space marines are noted for their short but intense conflicts, but forcing the ENTIRE IG on to ONE planet will eventually destroy them under their own weight.
While I won't argue that, the logistics of course would be just the issue you describe, assuming everyone started on the planet already, SM's likely wouldn't long enough for supply to become an issue. The raw amount of long range heavy artillery and stratgic weapons like Deathstrike missiles would likely annihilate whatever patch of ground the SM's are on in very short order.
There is no reasonable shelter against several trillion artillery pieces. The number of death-strike launchers and other explosive weapons being fired in this scenario would basically raze the planet.
I'm against trying to argue the nitty gritty of a fight such as the logistics. Why? Because this entire scenario is impossible logistically. If you're going to question things like "where are you going to get food for 16 trillion people", then you'll also have to question "well how did those 16 trillion people get there in the first place?" Are we going to assume that neither side wins because logistically it would take literally centuries for either side to land all their troops on the planet? Not really, no. Are we going to question that trillions of psykers using their powers and trillions of people fighting and dying would weaken the veil and allow massive daemon incursions? No. Etc.
Razing the planet assumes mutual destruction, however. Which side is more likely to survive nuclear exchanges?
War IS logistics. Besides, there are too many unknowns in the scenario described. What if there are caves hundreds of feet deep? And can't space marines theoretically stay under water for lengths of time? You can't just say side A outnumbers side B so game over. That's why it's fun to debate.
amanita wrote: Razing the planet assumes mutual destruction, however. Which side is more likely to survive nuclear exchanges?
War IS logistics. Besides, there are too many unknowns in the scenario described. What if there are caves hundreds of feet deep? And can't space marines theoretically stay under water for lengths of time? You can't just say side A outnumbers side B so game over. That's why it's fun to debate.
"War is logistics" is a non-sequtier. It doesn't change the fact that if you're going to ask how a trillion soldiers are going to manage to feed one another, you have to question how this scenario can feasibly happen in the first place.
All this talk of Logistics makes me think. How much ammo does a Sm carry? I mean we know IG carry a few mags each( on average) with what 30-40 shots each?
So..... whats the norm combat load for a Sm? Anyone wanna take a guess? And by Fluff( which we all know is odd and kinda stupid*) they do little in the way of supply train.
* I am not letting the IG off the" we know its stupid fluff" either. I mean have you seen those crap tanks which can't do what fluff says they do or the WWI tactics?
Hashbeth wrote: Space marines, but only because it's one MASSIVE planet .
A planet capable of housing the entire imperial guard + space marine chapters would be of incredible size (if earth like). There simply wouldn't be enough room for all the tanks, materiel, men, women, etc. to fit on the thing. It's size would likely make it incapable of being earth like, turning it into a death world. Not the "everything wants to kill you" type, the "step out here without full gear and you die," type. For this reason the guard would likely die due to vacuum, ridiculous pressure, etc. before the battle began.
I think that this is a reasonable answer when you think about it. basically 2 or 3 times the size of Jupiter.
what would be interesting is what the battle lines would look like. I would think that the SM would be basically encircled or in isolated groups which would still be surrounded.
The 1,000 Chief Librarians of each chapter destroy armies of Imperial Guardsmen on every battlefield they walk.
I know of no Primaris Psyker that can match the sheer psychic butthurt of the Space Marines. Every Librarian channeling their powers at once would likely raze the entire planet to dust.
The 1,000 Chief Librarians of each chapter destroy armies of Imperial Guardsmen on every battlefield they walk.
I know of no Primaris Psyker that can match the sheer psychic butthurt of the Space Marines. Every Librarian channeling their powers at once would likely raze the entire planet to dust.
also another valid argument
Its only Valid if you Ignore the Fact the Libtainas are out numbered by IG Psykers about a million to one. Numbers matter.
Hunterindarkness wrote: All this talk of Logistics makes me think. How much ammo does a Sm carry? I mean we know IG carry a few mags each( on average) with what 30-40 shots each?
Err just a few more than that. The average is 130-150 shots per cell, so with 5 cells each Guardsmen carries 650-750 shots. However it does vary depending on the type of lasgun - some, such as the Death Korps Lucius Pattern No. 98 fire at a higher energy setting and probably have less shots per cell - but the trade off is that they will hit a lot harder, whilst a cell in a lasgun like the Triplex will have a variable amount of shots depending on which energy setting the wielder puts it on. Advantage for the Guard with their weapons & ammunition is that they can recharge the packs rather easily, even throwing them into an open fire as a crude means of recharging them.
If I recall recharging the crude way damaged the Pack and lowers the number of charges it holds. But anyhow, any clue what a SM takes with em? The number of shots per Bolter mag can not be large.
Depends on the type of bolter. Those that take straight magazines can have as few as 20 rounds per magazine whilst those that will take drum magazines can have as high as 50 rounds or more. I think 30 is about the average for a Godwyn's sickle magazine.
#Edit: Those numbers come from the Inquisitor tabletop RPG, just as a by the way.
Recharging the cells in an open fire; it does damage the cell irreparably which is obviously frowned upon by the Departmento Munitorum. However I'm sure the average Guardsman doesn't care what the DM thinks when they've only got a couple of 'live' cells but loads of 'dead' ones to hand, the enemy bearing down on them and nowhere to charge the 'dead' cells.
Hashbeth wrote: Space marines, but only because it's one MASSIVE planet .
A planet capable of housing the entire imperial guard + space marine chapters would be of incredible size (if earth like). There simply wouldn't be enough room for all the tanks, materiel, men, women, etc. to fit on the thing. It's size would likely make it incapable of being earth like, turning it into a death world. Not the "everything wants to kill you" type, the "step out here without full gear and you die," type. For this reason the guard would likely die due to vacuum, ridiculous pressure, etc. before the battle began.
I think that this is a reasonable answer when you think about it. basically 2 or 3 times the size of Jupiter.
what would be interesting is what the battle lines would look like. I would think that the SM would be basically encircled or in isolated groups which would still be surrounded.
The 1,000 Chief Librarians of each chapter destroy armies of Imperial Guardsmen on every battlefield they walk.
I know of no Primaris Psyker that can match the sheer psychic butthurt of the Space Marines. Every Librarian channeling their powers at once would likely raze the entire planet to dust.
also another valid argument
Unfortunately, if the planet were 2-3 times the size of Jupiter a 200 lb Imperial guardsman would weigh at least 900 - 1400 lbs. Just saying.
Hashbeth wrote: Space marines, but only because it's one MASSIVE planet .
A planet capable of housing the entire imperial guard + space marine chapters would be of incredible size (if earth like). There simply wouldn't be enough room for all the tanks, materiel, men, women, etc. to fit on the thing. It's size would likely make it incapable of being earth like, turning it into a death world. Not the "everything wants to kill you" type, the "step out here without full gear and you die," type. For this reason the guard would likely die due to vacuum, ridiculous pressure, etc. before the battle began.
I think that this is a reasonable answer when you think about it. basically 2 or 3 times the size of Jupiter.
what would be interesting is what the battle lines would look like. I would think that the SM would be basically encircled or in isolated groups which would still be surrounded.
The 1,000 Chief Librarians of each chapter destroy armies of Imperial Guardsmen on every battlefield they walk.
I know of no Primaris Psyker that can match the sheer psychic butthurt of the Space Marines. Every Librarian channeling their powers at once would likely raze the entire planet to dust.
also another valid argument
Unfortunately, if the planet were 2-3 times the size of Jupiter a 200 lb Imperial guardsman would weigh at least 900 - 1400 lbs. Just saying.
Sheesh people are allowed to be fluffy man.... more to love right?
Hey, this is nothing but a factual discussion, right?
Besides, Earth is plenty big enough for this battle of the ages - people forget how big the planet is. It's not like the planet has to sustain these troops for long. Earth has a surface area of 510,000,000 sq. km or 149,000,000 sq km of land area. Even with 100 trillion soldiers each soldier would have over 22 sq kilometers just to himself. Can't fit everybody on? Seriously?
Cadia recruits at a 1:1 ratio of the planets population: in otherwords every member of the planet is also a member of the imperial guard. That planet alone dwarfs how many SMs there are.
Now add in the fact that the imperium consists of MANY planets with large recruitment scales your comparing the space marines are outnumbered 1 million to 1.
Psykers may be a question, though currently any one unit may ignore psyker powers and so 1 in a million guardsman may actually pull this off? well within the ratio numbers. Also never mind a baneblade or basilisk can still wipe the floor with a librarian through massive artillery. If your saying librarians are working in concert, then Psykic Choirs can work that large as well.
The numbers of the IG will overwhelm without a doubt
This one's easy. If we're including the BL fluff here, the SM, and all because you included the Legion of The Damned.
Seriously, they are an immortal, ethereal fighting force powered by the Emperor's own will. Their Bolter rounds are endless, they only physically manifest when they are about to attack someone, which means most of the time no weaponry can hit them because only their Bolter rounds transition into the physical world.
Hell, there would only be SM casualties because the SM don't know about the LoTD, so they would land on the planet for the fight even though they wouldn't have to.
amanita wrote: Hey, this is nothing but a factual discussion, right?
Besides, Earth is plenty big enough for this battle of the ages - people forget how big the planet is. It's not like the planet has to sustain these troops for long. Earth has a surface area of 510,000,000 sq. km or 149,000,000 sq km of land area. Even with 100 trillion soldiers each soldier would have over 22 sq kilometers just to himself. Can't fit everybody on? Seriously?
This fact here should render any further discussion on the battleground irrelevant. Lets just say that the planet is an Earth sized planet that is completely flat, no caves, oceans, mountains, canyons, plateaus, valleys, sink holes, cities..... like a blank slate planet!
I read a post earlier on the front-lines for this battle; the SM's would inevitably be surrounded, lest they risk being spread to thin. So yes there would most definitely be a Kein shield thrown up to protect from the countless shells bombarding them 24/7. However it would stop tanks and infantry from coming in. Once the IG infiltrated this shield, they would have free reign with sheer numbers. The psykers would be distracted with holding the shield firm, so there goes psychic offensive capabilities. The faltering lines of marines would eventually give way to said psykers who would be picked off and killed, evaporating the shield. Then the artillery would break through turning SM and IG to mist alike. But ultimately annihilating the SM's.
Guard hands down. Yes there would be tons of Librarians, but for every librarian there would be 100+ IG psykers combating them along with Arty, tanks, infantry ect. In the Imperium Space Marins are the scaple/Special Forces while the IG are the Army/hammer. In a straight up fight IG wins.
I remember reading in the old 2e IG codex a piece about Marines not having the numbers to hold back all the myriad threats facing mankind, yet the guard do. Ergo the Guard can achieve militarily what the SM cannot, therefore they are stronger.
BlaxicanX wrote: There is no reasonable shelter against several trillion artillery pieces. The number of death-strike launchers and other explosive weapons being fired in this scenario would basically raze the planet.
I'm against trying to argue the nitty gritty of a fight such as the logistics. Why? Because this entire scenario is impossible logistically. If you're going to question things like "where are you going to get food for 16 trillion people", then you'll also have to question "well how did those 16 trillion people get there in the first place?" Are we going to assume that neither side wins because logistically it would take literally centuries for either side to land all their troops on the planet? Not really, no. Are we going to question that trillions of psykers using their powers and trillions of people fighting and dying would weaken the veil and allow massive daemon incursions? No. Etc.
In other words, which has already been said, this is a perfect scenario for the IG and a nightmare for the Space Marines. Of course the Imperial Guard will win. The Adeptus Astartes is a support organisation to the Imperial Guard, not the other way around.
Vaktathi wrote: Many worlds have extensive anti-orbital defense networks able to blast ships out of the sky. The very minor depot world of Vraks was so heavily fortified that when it rebelled no Space Marine chapter would take the job, it wasn't until the IG had landed in force and besieged the planet for years that the SM's showed up, landed far away from the combat zone, and advanced on the ground to attack a spaceport many miles from the primary battle lines.
Vraks, as in, the place where An'ggrath manifested? Gee, I wonder why that might be hard to capture...
MarsNZ wrote: I remember reading in the old 2e IG codex a piece about Marines not having the numbers to hold back all the myriad threats facing mankind, yet the guard do. Ergo the Guard can achieve militarily what the SM cannot, therefore they are stronger.
Throw a Virus Bomb at the Guard and they're not so tough anymore. The Guard can do things the Astartes can't, but the opposite is also true.
Void__Dragon wrote:I know of no Primaris Psyker that can match the sheer psychic butthurt of the Space Marines. Every Librarian channeling their powers at once would likely raze the entire planet to dust.
How that quote from Codex: IG went? "They have gods and madmen on their side. Let them. We have tanks on ours"
Void__Dragon wrote:No artillery will even dream of penetrating the kine field conjured by thousands of Librarians.
Somehow that didn't helped Prospero. Also, seriously, if I were IG commander against 'kine field conjured by thousands of Librarians' I'd just go grab my peanuts and wait nomming them until someone fails his warp peril concentration then watch a million demons attracted to all that psychic firework burst from the head of unlucky one to attack other librarians.
Then as they turn to fight daemons and drop shield I'd just press 'fire' order telling my thousands of Basilisks already trained on them to send the whole shebang to Emprah
Griddlelol wrote:Actually if you fell into a gas giant, you wouldn't stay in the middle, you'd be propelled out the other side only to be drawn back in again, and propelled the other way. All until you ran out of momentum, but that's dependent on the gas giant and its "atmospheric" composition.
Actually actually, insides of gas giants are solid so you'd be tapped (and crushed by pressure) long before you even reach the center
The Thousand Sons, being favored by Chaos at the time, probably didn't need to worry about such things. Also, Psykers acting in Choir don't often have the same problems as one trying to do it alone. This is one thing that keeps the Astronomican lit.
ALEXisAWESOME wrote: You do realize this includes Commissar Cain right??? IG Can't lose! No matter how hard Cain tries to get away, he will end up in the marine command centre with 20 demo charges...just 'cause he can!
Psienesis wrote: The Thousand Sons, being favored by Chaos at the time, probably didn't need to worry about such things. Also, Psykers acting in Choir don't often have the same problems as one trying to do it alone. This is one thing that keeps the Astronomican lit.
Yes, but dont thousands of psykers in choir die every day just to keep it lit? Yeah the Astronomicon probably requires alot more power than a kine shield and those psykers arent librarians, but as someone else said what is stopping the IG from just waiting out the SM One will fail eventually.
I'd probably put my money on space marines. They wouldn't try to grind things out with the guard. They would do what they always do, go for specialized targets. The guard high command would be annihilated and without coordination the guard would fall apart. I'm not saying it would be easy, or without massive casualties, but I'm pretty sure that most of the guard would end up surrendering before the end.
Phiasco II wrote: I'd probably put my money on space marines. They wouldn't try to grind things out with the guard. They would do what they always do, go for specialized targets. The guard high command would be annihilated and without coordination the guard would fall apart. I'm not saying it would be easy, or without massive casualties, but I'm pretty sure that most of the guard would end up surrendering before the end.
The issue with that being, the IG does not work that way. You would need to kill every Command unit of every regiment and all the commissars. Which the Sm could never do, you can't cut the head off the IG.
Phiasco II wrote: I'd probably put my money on space marines. They wouldn't try to grind things out with the guard. They would do what they always do, go for specialized targets. The guard high command would be annihilated and without coordination the guard would fall apart. I'm not saying it would be easy, or without massive casualties, but I'm pretty sure that most of the guard would end up surrendering before the end.
Yes, you have to realise the IG probably has more commanders than there are SM, enough plasma and melta guns to hand out to the bodyguards of said commanders and then probably enough super heavy to hide more than half of those commanders inside.
"I have at my command an entire battle group of the Imperial Guard. Fifty regiments, including specialized drop troops, stealthers, mechanized formations, armored companies, combat engineers and mobile artillery. Over half a million fighting men and thirty thousand tanks and artillery pieces are mine to command. Emperor show mercy to the fool that stands against me, for I shall not."
So for each half a million men the IG can put on the battlefield(s) they can put 30.000 tanks and artillery pieces. Do you know how many battle groups of the imperial guard there are?
Sorry, marines are good, but they arent designed for all out war purposes, they are designed to be marines. boarding, landing and doing other very specific tasks to make the imperial guards victories more likely.
If we're talking one planet and just jam everyone on there then IG would likely win eventually though I doubt you'd be able to fit all those men and equipment on one world without serious logistics.
The Imperial Guard might have more numbers against the Space Marines but they have not as good weaponry and lower grade of armor. Space Marines are cooler, more powerful and ave better weapons but they lack the numbers against the Guard.
There are more Bolter made for the Ig than there SM, there are more plasma guns for the IG than there are bolter shells for the SM, there are more meltaguns than there are power armor, artificer armor, scout armor and terminator armor avaible for the SM.
There are more Heavy bolters... okay do I really need to go on?
There are more Bolter made for the Ig than there SM, there are more plasma guns for the IG than there are bolter shells for the SM, there are more meltaguns than there are power armor, artificer armor, scout armor and terminator armor avaible for the SM.
There are more Heavy bolters... okay do I really need to go on?
There are more Bolter made for the Ig than there SM, there are more plasma guns for the IG than there are bolter shells for the SM, there are more meltaguns than there are power armor, artificer armor, scout armor and terminator armor avaible for the SM.
There are more Heavy bolters... okay do I really need to go on?
There are more Bolter made for the Ig than there SM, there are more plasma guns for the IG than there are bolter shells for the SM, there are more meltaguns than there are power armor, artificer armor, scout armor and terminator armor avaible for the SM.
There are more Heavy bolters... okay do I really need to go on?
There are more baneblades than there has been space marines since the great crusade =)
There are more Bolter made for the Ig than there SM, there are more plasma guns for the IG than there are bolter shells for the SM, there are more meltaguns than there are power armor, artificer armor, scout armor and terminator armor avaible for the SM.
There are more Heavy bolters... okay do I really need to go on?
Doesn't matter, most of those heavy bolter's cant shoot anything, but the slow, slow guardsmen in front of them.
Think of Sm like really virulent cancer, pops up everywhere.
That's if you assume that the Guard will just stand there in a massive block like a bunch of slowed numpties making life easier for the Space Marines. No, no, don't see that happening, after all you'd be suggesting that we humans are absolute idiots of the first degree who should still be living in caves - I know people like to make out the Astartes are super-awesomely amazing but don't forget how intelligent, perceptive and adaptive we humans are as a species.
Staggered gun lines, fortified positions, bunkers, defence lines. Hell I can see the Guard forming 'squares' and just ripping on the Astartes as they land in drop pods or jump towards the Guard with jump packs, or race towards them on bikes. With the force of all those lasguns hitting, those Astartes are going to be knocked for six no matter what they do because with each formation they destroy there're hundreds of others they'll need to get through. In short, no matter what the Astartes do the Guard can counter it through weight of fire, even if that means firing on other Guard formations that have shattered - afterall the Guardsmen they're firing on are doing their bit to slow the Astartes and their sacrifice is worth it for the God-Emperor.
Sparks_Havelock wrote: That's if you assume that the Guard will just stand there in a massive block like a bunch of slowed numpties.
Thats usual Guard tactics anyway.Not that don't really have much choice, cramed together on a planet like that.
Sparks_Havelock wrote: No, no, don't see that happening, after all you'd be suggesting that we humans are absolute idiots of the first degree . I know people like to make out the Astartes are super-awesomely amazing but don't forget how intelligent, perceptive and adaptive we humans are as a species.
Where do they create these lines, under each others feet? Just like all guard guns cant fire at once. Best the guard can hope for is a stalemate. Thats why they're called the guard,
Cant be bothered checking but how many legions were on Ullinor?
Sparks_Havelock wrote: That's if you assume that the Guard will just stand there in a massive block like a bunch of slowed numpties.
Thats usual Guard tactics anyway.Not that don't really have much choice, cramed together on a planet like that.
Usual Guard tactics of which regiments? Tallarn? Elysian? Catachan? Harakoni? Sounds like the usual Astartes-fan opinion that humans are so stupid in the 41st millenium that the best the regular human Guardsmen can do is stand around in huge blocks in the open because anything else might prove to be a problem for the Astartes, right?
And how small a planet are you thinking here? When you consider landing the Guard regiments, their equipment, supplies, vehicles, armoured fighting vehicles, artillery etc and then moving the battalions, regiments, brigades, divisions, corps, army groups etc into their positions, and just how many formations there would be, do you really think it's just going to be a planet that can fit the Guard onto it but they're just stood there without being able to move? You could probably fit the entirety of the Imperial Guard on the planet Venus but sense and logic dictate that in this scenario you'd be putting the entirety of the Guard onto a planet on which they can fight properly as they're trained to.
Sparks_Havelock wrote: No, no, don't see that happening, after all you'd be suggesting that we humans are absolute idiots of the first degree . I know people like to make out the Astartes are super-awesomely amazing but don't forget how intelligent, perceptive and adaptive we humans are as a species.
Well we are. You can blame GW for that one.
But then in the same stroke the Astartes would be as stupid as humans considering that's where they come form. There're no intellectual enhancements for the Astartes upon their 'creation', in fact I'd estimate that, due to the traumatic changes they go through physically to become a Space Marine, their intellectual capabilities are most likely going to be lower than the average human who hasn't had to go through years of augmentation that changes them from what they were into something else, hammering their young minds with changes that were never intended for a human to naturally undergo. They have also have a stunted range of emotions compared to a human. So why don't the Astartes just stand in groups waiting to die? Of course the answer is that fans of the Astartes don't want humans to be any good because then that wouldn't make the Astartes look so 'awesome' would it? So you're ready to spit in the face of your species capabilities in favor of a bunch of fictional super-humans who are actually intellectually no better, and probably worse, than the average human.
Also Imperial Guard officers have access to the Tactica Imperium - that mighty tome would not exist without human commanders using tactics & strategies and winning.
Where do they create these lines, under each others feet? Just like all guard guns cant fire at once. Best the guard can hope for is a stalemate. Thats why they're called the guard,
Cant be bothered checking but how many legions were on Ullinor?
Simple, if we're talking about the combined Imperial Guard, every regiment raised from across 1 million (+/- a few) planets placed onto a single world large enough to take them you'd assuredly make sure the planet was large enough for them to fight properly otherwise you're just being as biased as possible for the Astartes. The Astartes can not win. It's impossible unless you enforce a handicap on the Guard, like the ones you seem to be dreaming up of them not being space to move, no fortifications, having no tactics and just standing there like a bunch of human statues. The Imperial Guard are countless, the Astartes are not. You can't run out of Imperial Guardsmen but you can run out of Astartes and ceramite power armour is not immune to melta or plasma weapons, Guard have access to power weapons, the Death RIders/Rough Riders have hunting lances that will blow apart power armour, even the humble lasgun can smash open power armour - the Imperial Guards tanks could just line up track to track and roll forward over the Astartes and there's nothing the majority of the Astartes could do to stop them.
As for the name 'Imperial Guard'? They're the Guard because they are the ones, in a universe filled with aliens who can easily slay a human, of weapons that can destroy humans in ways too horrible to imagine, they're the ones who hold the line against the worst nightmares the Imperium can face and prevail. That's why they're the Guard, because they can do what the Astartes can't and that is to guard the Imperium.
As a sub-note, do you think Britain's Grenadier Guards were only capable of standing around? Or Napoleon's Young, Middle and Old Guards? Units denoted as being 'Guards' are considered to be elite/shock troops. This is why the Guard is considered to be better at its job than an average PDF.
nah just take every one of the sm chapters and let them face 1/1000th of the imperial guard each on an individual world. Good bye space marine chapters.
TheDungen wrote: nah just take every one of the sm chapters and let them face 1/1000th of the imperial guard each on an individual world. Good bye space marine chapters.
