One unit that constantly gets bashed in the Necron codex is Flayed Ones. They are the infiltrator unit of the army and one of the few melee oriented units as well. Most neocon players default to "necrons suck at melee" but often cite our Initiative 2 for this reason. While I can see their point, I couldn't help but notice Ork Boyz also have Initiative 2 yet orks are considered by many to be a horde melee army.

This got me thinking about Flayed Ones and how to have some fun with them.

Deep striking theme seems like a bad idea other than to divert shooting away from them and the same goes for doing an infiltration deployment (which I have rarely seen terrain setup to allow the 12" range.

Since they are infiltrators, they inherit ly have outflank. While it still produces a target/distraction for the enemy, it provides an interesting opportunity and a safer one for a larger unit.

Has anyone had any luck in using Flayed Ones for more than a distraction tactic? They aren't as good as wraiths but cost less and really just 3pts more than an ork 'ard boy (but have slightly better stats and RP).

For some reason I want to like them and am curious to hear other's experiences.

Why does I2 suck? Sweeping advance. Orks at model strength above 10 are fearless. Flayed Ones have no way to become fearless. Orks also have access to things like pain Boyz which grants FNP, and upgrades like characters with power fists. FOs can't even be joined by RC Lords or Crypteks. Your only options are to buff them with an Overlord or D. Lord and/or Special Characters. None of which get around the fact that you can lose a combat by 1 or 2 and greatly increase your chance of losing the whole squad and any attached characters on a die roll with the odds not in your favor when other armies are averaging an I4 or greater. Their only benefit is using them to harass with Imotehk's blood swarm nano scarabs. Allies assault units are in just about always a better option than FOs or just more Wraiths or Scarabs.

I'm one of the few people who use them regularly, and they always perform the role I set them at.

Don't stick to anyone of there deployments. See how the terrain and opponent is setup and choose the deployment accordingly.

The big advantage FOs have over most assault units is their RPP (resiliency per point) is very strong regardless of what is shooting at them (except Heavy Flamers, this is pretty much the only weapon profile that aren't great against).

So, to take advantage of everything they excel at, use their flexible deployment to get to an objective, if something is on the objective, kill it, otherwise contest it and GtG if the enemy starts dedicating firepower to them. A large squad will eat bullets all game long behind T4, 3+ cover save, and RP.

Another option is to keep them smaller (5 to 10) and use them as a distraction unit. The only thing I don't like about this strategy is it is too easy to wipe them in one round of shooting and bypass RP. RP is a big part of what makes them tick.

Good synergistic units are Imotehk (pin point DS and night fighting), Zandrek, and Destroyer Lord (Res Orb and PE).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Your only options are to buff them with an Overlord or D. Lord and/or Special Characters. None of which get around the fact that you can lose a combat by 1 or 2 and greatly increase your chance of losing the whole squad and any attached characters on a die roll with the odds not in your favor when other armies are averaging an I4 or greater. Their only benefit is using them to harass with Imotehk's blood swarm nano scarabs.

This is the most common objection. The reality is, with as many attacks as they poor out, LD 10, and the fact that most units you face simply aren't dedicated CC, the amount of times this will come into play is extremely limited, like I would say 1 in 20 games, if that.

Allies assault units are in just about always a better option than FOs or just more Wraiths or Scarabs.

Simply not true. Few assault units can eat bullets the way Flayed Ones can, not too mention including DS and Infiltrate. In a "shooty edition", an assault units RPP is extremely relevant.

You can have your opinion but do not telling me that mine is not true. I am not about to go through a ten page thread again with you as to why Flayed Ones Suck C'tan sized balls.

 NecronLord3 wrote:
You can have your opinion but do not telling me that mine is not true. I am not about to go through a ten page thread again with you as to why Flayed Ones Suck C'tan sized balls.

You made a factual statement that was incorrect. I was merely pointing out a very important area and very important role to illustrate how your statement was incorrect. I apologize if that came across in a negative way.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

 NecronLord3 wrote:
You can have your opinion but do not telling me that mine is not true. I am not about to go through a ten page thread again with you as to why Flayed Ones Suck C'tan sized balls.

You made a factual statement that was incorrect. I was merely pointing out a very important area and very important role to illustrate how your statement was incorrect. I apologize if that came across in a negative way.

My statement is not incorrect any assault unit with a 3+ save is better than flayed ones at "eating bullets" and our allied units can even bring FNP assault units with FNP.

My statement is not incorrect any assault unit with a 3+ save is better than flayed ones at "eating bullets" and our allied units can even bring FNP assault units with FNP.

RP, Ld10, and the ability to GtG for a 3++ (many assault units are fearless), quite simply makes gives them superior RPP. If you wish to propose a unit with FNP that you think is more resilient per point, I would be happy to consider it. Just the 4+ and RP alone makes them more resilient then Space Marines/point, and this isn't factoring in GtG or Night Fighting, which are quite relevant to a Necron list.

It will be interesting to see what, if any, changes for Flayed Ones will be in IA12 and if said changes will make then better.

 Zathras wrote:
It will be interesting to see what, if any, changes for Flayed Ones will be in IA12 and if said changes will make then better.

It's out. They move them to troops and give the whole unit shred for 10 points. Pretty awesome buffs. Sadly, I don't play many areas where IA is allowed.

You wouldn't outflank a genestealer brood even with catalyst or endurance on them, why would you outflank something worse than genestealers?

 Kain wrote:
You wouldn't outflank a genestealer brood even with catalyst or endurance on them, why would you outflank something worse than genestealers?

Because Genestealers are significantly less resilient. By miles, and miles, and miles.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

 Kain wrote:
You wouldn't outflank a genestealer brood even with catalyst or endurance on them, why would you outflank something worse than genestealers?

Because Genestealers are significantly less resilient. By miles, and miles, and miles.

FNP makes them about as tough and with tervigons and armywide access to biomancy it's easy to get. Also, Broodlords are fantastic units, to the point that stealers are mostly meatshields for them. With synapse they are fearless, and with a really good initiative they will be sweeping a lot and will be going first even if assaulted. Stealers are just better than codex flayed ones. They even score too.

For elites, comparing Flayed Ones to the gods of Ambush that are Ymgarl Genestealers is silly to the point of being surreal.

FNP makes them about as tough and with tervigons and armywide access to biomancy it's easy to get.

It gets them slightly closer, but your still comparing 16 point models+the cost of the model buffing them. They simply aren't anywhere near as efficient RPP, even with FNP

Also, Broodlords are fantastic units, to the point that stealers are mostly meatshields for them.

Now the unit is even more expensive...

With synapse they are fearless, and with a really good initiative they will be sweeping a lot and will be going first even if assaulted.

GS are good in CC. No argue that at all. They just never get there. Also, Fearless is detrimental to the purposes I need. Can't GtG.

Stealers are just better than codex flayed ones.

No, because they never get to CC. So all they ever end up being is extremely expensive 1 wound models with gakky saves.

They even score too.

Yeah, if they were only alive to take advantage of that ability. I would rather have a denial unit that lives then a scoring unit that doesn't. Ultimately, all I need to do is deny the objective anyway.

For elites, comparing Flayed Ones to the gods of Ambush that are Ymgarl Genestealers is silly to the point of being surreal.

Ymgarls are great ambushers. But they are also even more expensive, and even worse in an RPP comparison.

Ymgarls will always get into assault, because they can attack the moment they pop up, and by using S5 for the turn they massacre anything they charge short of a land raider.

Flayed ones pay for that 4+ save, which is negated by a crap ton of weapons. Biovores for example, turn flayed one blocks into piles of scrap before they can do anything, warriors too.

Stealers are fast, and when I do run them, I screen them with the termagaunts my Tevigons poop out for free, giving me cover at all times.

 Kain wrote:
Ymgarls will always get into assault, because they can attack the moment they pop up, and by using S5 for the turn they massacre anything they charge short of a land raider.

Yes, and when they are finished with the first unit they assault, they die to guns. Very expensively.

Flayed ones pay for that 4+ save, which is negated by a crap ton of weapons. Biovores for example, turn flayed one blocks into piles of scrap before they can do anything, warriors too.

You do realize you are comparing a 13 point model to a 16 point model right? So whatever Flayed Ones "pay" for their 4+, they are still superior to Genies in RPP. The biovore example is meaningless drivel. FOs have RP and cover. You aren't doing any real damage with Bios against them.

Stealers are fast, and when I do run them, I screen them with the termagaunts my Tevigons poop out for free, giving me cover at all times.

Which won't change the fact that they are 16 pt 1 W models with a crappy save, even if its a cover save.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Ymgarls will always get into assault, because they can attack the moment they pop up, and by using S5 for the turn they massacre anything they charge short of a land raider.

Yes, and when they are finished with the first unit they assault, they die to guns. Very expensively.

Flayed ones pay for that 4+ save, which is negated by a crap ton of weapons. Biovores for example, turn flayed one blocks into piles of scrap before they can do anything, warriors too.

You do realize you are comparing a 13 point model to a 16 point model right? So whatever Flayed Ones "pay" for their 4+, they are still superior to Genies in RPP. The biovore example is meaningless drivel. FOs have RP and cover. You aren't doing any real damage with Bios against them.

Stealers are fast, and when I do run them, I screen them with the termagaunts my Tevigons poop out for free, giving me cover at all times.

Which won't change the fact that they are 16 pt 1 W models with a crappy save, even if its a cover save.

If I've killed your royal court, murdered your tesla immortal brick, or popped your parking lots I've accomplished my mission. .

And Biovores fire barrage weapons. Your cover save is meaningless, your brick will be broken by three large blasts wounding on a 4+ which should in a single turn of shooting, devastate your unit, break it apart to the point that it's assault capabilities are negligable, and delay it's arrival because you're going to want to consolidate it now that you're at more than 2'' coherency between the front and back units now that the middle units are all dead.

And a 5+ cover save, especially with FNP, is actually not that bad. Especially when there are a whole slew of AP4 or better weapons that make your 4+ save meaningless anyway. Unlike you, I can quite easily ignore your cover save by just laying down barrage pieplates, Necrons last time I checked, were quite short on templates and barrage weapons, so I'll be keeping my saves.

Or because your flayed ones aren't scoring and are soaking up points that would usually go towards Scythe spam, I simply shoot your warriors off the table with some biovores while podded down Zoanthropes and Doom in a can mess up what remains of your gunline with Warp blasts, Leech shenanigans, and Cataclysm, Flyrants rearshot your transports into dust with BL devourers, The swarmlord, assuming this is a double FOC game, rolls Iron arm and endurance/warp speed and proceeds to devour unit after unit, Stonecrusher carnifexes run up and show you why a 2+ save carnifex with rerollable regeneration and AP1 crushing claws is terrifying, and I park tervigons and a few stealers for counter assault and termagaunts for cheap bodies onto the objectives and there's precisely feth all you can do about it.

Or you could do the smart thing and use a maximum threat overload necron list or scythespam and overwhelm my tyranids before I can pull off *my* maximum threat overload assault on you.

If I've killed your royal court, murdered your tesla immortal brick, or popped your parking lots I've accomplished my mission. .

I don't field a single unit you just mentioned. Not that it would make this any more relevant.

And Biovores fire barrage weapons. Your cover save is meaningless, your brick will be broken by three large blasts wounding on a 4+ which should in a single turn of shooting, devastate your unit, break it apart to the point that it's assault capabilities are negligable, and delay it's arrival because you're going to want to consolidate it now that you're at more than 2'' coherency between the front and back units now that the middle units are all dead.

Barrage doesn't ignore area terrain. The rest is meaningless speculation.

And a 5+ cover save, especially with FNP, is actually not that bad. Especially when there are a whole slew of AP4 or better weapons that make your 4+ save meaningless anyway. Unlike you, I can quite easily ignore your cover save by just laying down barrage pieplates, Necrons last time I checked, were quite short on templates and barrage weapons, so I'll be keeping my saves.

Are we really doing this? This isn't a Flayed Ones versus Nids thread dude. Your Genestealers are still considerable more expensive and easier to kill. None of your elaborations magically make that untrue.

Or because your flayed ones aren't scoring and are soaking up points that would usually go towards Scythe spam, I simply shoot your warriors off the table with some biovores while podded down Zoanthropes and Doom in a can mess up what remains of your gunline with Warp blasts, Leech shenanigans, and Cataclysm, Flyrants rearshot your transports into dust with BL devourers, The swarmlord, assuming this is a double FOC game, rolls Iron arm and endurance/warp speed and proceeds to devour unit after unit, Stonecrusher carnifexes run up and show you why a 2+ save carnifex with rerollable regeneration and AP1 crushing claws is terrifying, and I park tervigons and a few stealers for counter assault and termagaunts for cheap bodies onto the objectives and there's precisely feth all you can do about it.

Riveting.

Or you could do the smart thing and use a maximum threat overload necron list or scythespam and overwhelm my tyranids before I can pull off *my* maximum threat overload assault on you.

LOL.

Internets.....wow.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

If I've killed your royal court, murdered your tesla immortal brick, or popped your parking lots I've accomplished my mission. .

I don't field a single unit you just mentioned. Not that it would make this any more relevant.

And Biovores fire barrage weapons. Your cover save is meaningless, your brick will be broken by three large blasts wounding on a 4+ which should in a single turn of shooting, devastate your unit, break it apart to the point that it's assault capabilities are negligable, and delay it's arrival because you're going to want to consolidate it now that you're at more than 2'' coherency between the front and back units now that the middle units are all dead.

Barrage doesn't ignore area terrain. The rest is meaningless speculation.

And a 5+ cover save, especially with FNP, is actually not that bad. Especially when there are a whole slew of AP4 or better weapons that make your 4+ save meaningless anyway. Unlike you, I can quite easily ignore your cover save by just laying down barrage pieplates, Necrons last time I checked, were quite short on templates and barrage weapons, so I'll be keeping my saves.

Are we really doing this? This isn't a Flayed Ones versus Nids thread dude. Your Genestealers are still considerable more expensive and easier to kill. None of your elaborations magically make that untrue.

Or because your flayed ones aren't scoring and are soaking up points that would usually go towards Scythe spam, I simply shoot your warriors off the table with some biovores while podded down Zoanthropes and Doom in a can mess up what remains of your gunline with Warp blasts, Leech shenanigans, and Cataclysm, Flyrants rearshot your transports into dust with BL devourers, The swarmlord, assuming this is a double FOC game, rolls Iron arm and endurance/warp speed and proceeds to devour unit after unit, Stonecrusher carnifexes run up and show you why a 2+ save carnifex with rerollable regeneration and AP1 crushing claws is terrifying, and I park tervigons and a few stealers for counter assault and termagaunts for cheap bodies onto the objectives and there's precisely feth all you can do about it.

Riveting.

Or you could do the smart thing and use a maximum threat overload necron list or scythespam and overwhelm my tyranids before I can pull off *my* maximum threat overload assault on you.

LOL.

Internets.....wow.

Oh I get it, you're one of those people who fields things generally not regarded as very good in an attempt to be different. Tell me, are your successes from the actual merits of your units or because they're so off base most people usually don't prepare for them? Once people start adjusting to off-base lists their success rate drops immensely. See Ailaros' blog to see how his Deep striking storm troopers, usually regarded as okay if pricey, went from winning many victories for him to usually just getting slaughtered when the meta adjusts to them.

Also, in the same slot are triarch stalkers, which have two shot multimeltas and flamers and can provide twinlinking out the wazoo for your shooters. Also in the same slot are Death marks, whom when paired with Despair-teks are gods. Also in the same slot are C'tan who can provide all sorts of wackiness for your army and are also one of the rare monstrous creatures with a good invulnerable save. Also in the same slot are Lychguards...but nobody likes Lychguards ever since it was ruled that they can't have axes. And triarch praetorians are just plain garbage, this is indisputable.

Also, sure I can't nullify your area terrain save, but you're going to have to leave that area sooner or later if you want to get into assault (where you will likely have to eat overwatch). You'll need to cross open ground sooner or later, and when you do the sky is going to fall on you. Not to mention that things like whirlwinds, which are also quite competitive can flat out just say "no save for you." And of course manticore batteries will ruin your warriors and flayed one's day. But honestly, other than MEQs, TEQS, and MCs, what doesn't a large number of Manticores ruin?

And my genestealers may cost more, but they're faster with fleet, more effective in assault period thanks to rending, don't get swept off the board, and most importantly don't go last when facing anything that isn't an Ork. If you charge your flayed ones into Grey Hunters, first you'll chew on overwatch, then you'll get punched in the face by the space wolves, then you get to attack with weapons that don't pierce their saves, lose combat, then get swept. Stealers will at least penetrate their saves with rending and go before them. But of course no one fields stealers for assault anymore, but Ymgarls can have a similar if not better effect.

Oh I get it, you're one of those people who fields things generally not regarded as very good in an attempt to be different. Tell me, are your successes from the actual merits of your units or because they're so off base most people usually don't prepare for them? Once people start adjusting to off-base lists their success rate drops immensely. See Ailaros' blog to see how his Deep striking storm troopers, usually regarded as okay if pricey, went from winning many victories for him to usually just getting slaughtered when the meta adjusts to them.

More idle speculation with nothing to back it up.

Also, in the same slot are triarch stalkers, which have two shot multimeltas and flamers and can provide twinlinking out the wazoo for your shooters. Also in the same slot are Death marks, whom when paired with Despair-teks are gods. Also in the same slot are C'tan who can provide all sorts of wackiness for your army and are also one of the rare monstrous creatures with a good invulnerable save. Also in the same slot are Lychguards...but nobody likes Lychguards ever since it was ruled that they can't have axes. And triarch praetorians are just plain garbage, this is indisputable.

Oh, you mean there are other things in the Elite Slot? NO gak? Damn. I must have gotten a defective codex.

Also, Triarch Praetorians are far from garbage as a DLord escort. You have no idea what you are talking about.

Also, sure I can't nullify your area terrain save, but you're going to have to leave that area sooner or later if you want to get into assault (where you will likely have to eat overwatch). You'll need to cross open ground sooner or later, and when you do the sky is going to fall on you.

I have Deep Strike/Infiltrate/Outflank. More often then not, I deploy them where I want them. They don't cross the open field often. You simply have no frame of reference on how this unit operates.

Not to mention that things like whirlwinds, which are also quite competitive can flat out just say "no save for you."

Incorrect. Check the whirlwind stats again and come back to me bud.

And of course manticore batteries will ruin your warriors and flayed one's day. But honestly, other than MEQs, TEQS, and MCs, what doesn't a large number of Manticores ruin?

Who knows? Not even sure what this has to do with anything...except to highlight that Flayed Ones will get RP no matter what, and will live through most scenarios you wish to dream up.

And my genestealers may cost more, but they're faster with fleet, more effective in assault period thanks to rending, don't get swept off the board, and most importantly don't go last when facing anything that isn't an Ork.

Yeah, GS are better in assault. Assuming they get there. Never argued that. In fact I stated it quite explicitly. You simply don't want to admit that Flayed Ones are significantly more resilient to shooting.

If you charge your flayed ones into Grey Hunters, first you'll chew on overwatch, then you'll get punched in the face by the space wolves, then you get to attack with weapons that don't pierce their saves, lose combat, then get swept.

Ah yes, the classic Grey Hunters rebuttal.

Stealers will at least penetrate their saves with rending and go before them. But of course no one fields stealers for assault anymore, but Ymgarls can have a similar if not better effect.

Yeah, you know why people don't field Stealers? Because they are very expensive bullet magnets. Flayed Ones aren't. Flayed Ones are tied with Warriors as the most resilient per point unit in the Necron codex versus the widest variety of weapons. The big advantage being, Flayed Ones can push a unit off an objective rather efficiently in most cases. Warriors can't.

Given that space wolves are everywhere, whether or not you can beat GH in assault or on a point basis is a very valid comparison. GHs, Plague Marines, Boys and Tervis are a golden standard for a reason. If you can't force these from an objective with what you''re using you should reconsider.

Also the Ailaros blog is legit, his DS ing stormies stomped face until people adjusted to them, at which point they usually just died without doing anything of note.

And while we''re on Nurgle, I''ll note that plaguebearers and plague marines are tougher, scoring, and available as allies. Especially since plaguebearers can easily get FNP and are basically always going to ground and can glance any vehicle. Oh and plaguebearers are dirt cheap.

Plague marine allies will serve you better.

<_> I don't want to butt into this bitch fight here, but to be honest, I think Flayed Ones, while resilient, are bullet magnets and one or two of my Leman Russ Executioners could probably end them in a single turn of shooting.. Also, maybe massed lasgun fire or a nice big squad of Assault Marines, but I gotta admit, they are pretty good for their points :3 I'm surprised people don't use them more often, especially considering how cool (I think) they are ^_^

Oh and plague zombie allies are cheaper and just as good at soaking up wounds point to point.

 Kain wrote:
Given that space wolves are everywhere, whether or not you can beat GH in assault or on a point basis is a very valid comparison. GHs, Plague Marines, Boys and Tervis are a golden standard for a reason. If you can't force these from an objective with what you''re using you should reconsider.

Also the Ailaros blog is legit, his DS ing stormies stomped face until people adjusted to them, at which point they usually just died without doing anything of note.

And while we''re on Nurgle, I''ll note that plaguebearers and plague marines are tougher, scoring, and available as allies. Especially since plaguebearers can easily get FNP and are basically always going to ground and can glance any vehicle. Oh and plaguebearers are dirt cheap.

Plague marine allies will serve you better.

And, you keep saying allies are better, maybe I don't want to field a different army? Maybe I don't want to waste 70 fricken points on a Nurgle Lord to get Plague Marines as Troop Choices, when I could just as easily FIELD FLAYED ONES FOR LESS -_-

Chaos lords are nifty, cheap, and get a lot of goodies, they're rarely wasted points. Oh and they can randomly turn into Daemon Princes.

 Kain wrote:
Chaos lords are nifty, cheap, and get a lot of goodies, they're rarely wasted points. Oh and they can randomly turn into Daemon Princes.

-_- Once in a hundred games.. And, why would I want a Chaos Lord when I have a Destroyer Lord who does the same thing but better?

 Kain wrote:
Chaos lords are nifty, cheap, and get a lot of goodies, they're rarely wasted points. Oh and they can randomly turn into Daemon Princes.

Or spawn.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Chaos lords are nifty, cheap, and get a lot of goodies, they're rarely wasted points. Oh and they can randomly turn into Daemon Princes.

-_- Once in a hundred games.. And, why would I want a Chaos Lord when I have a Destroyer Lord who does the same thing but better?

Because that's one less slot for a royal court. Also Helldrakes, Obliterators, Contemptor dreads, and plague marines.

There are three critical problems that lead to non-use of Flayed ones.

A) It's hard to get them into combat.
Yes, they have Deep Strike and Infiltrate, but fundamentally they're still 6" move infantry. When the only real assault elements that work in this meta are extremely fast moving (assault armies now want, and get, guaranteed turn 2 assault), Flayed ones don't really have any methods to get into CC. No Assault Transports, no assault after Deep Strike, no movement shenanigans, no terrain ignoring. Furthermore, although cheap, they're relatively squishy, and have the possibility to get cut down in overwatch, leading to failed charges, esp. through terrain. Not to mention the firepower that can be unloaded into them the turn they deep strike. The enemy could even use his counterassault elements to charge the flayed ones themselves.

B) When they're in a fight, they're not actually that good.
Three S4 attacks at 13 points isn't that terrible in and of itself. Oh wait, Slugga Boyz get that many attacks at that strength (4S 4A on the charge) and are less than half the cost per model of a Flayed One. Slugga Boyz are also generally not taken either, which is not good news for Flayed Ones. Boyz even get assault transports, and immunity to morale problems when you take a lot of them. Fundamentally, Flayed Ones don't do that well in combat. The I2 really hurts, even if you charge you're getting struck first basically all the time, and S4 AP- attacks at I2 isn't really what wins combats. IA12 seems like a buff that actually works -- giving them shred means they at least wound a lot, making them actually reasonable. Giving them the great equalizer, rending, also would make them functional, as then they'd be always able to threaten some kind of damage. Giving them Shred and Rending would make them actually totally fearsome. Then you'd see them used in large quantities, as distraction elements for an Multiple Threat Overload List. You'd need to address the Deep Striking Flayed Ones before they got to combat, which would take away firepower from the wraiths and nightscythes and annihilation barges. However, as they are right now, they aren't going to make enough of an impact in melee to even warrant threat given to them. They're kind of like Mutilators in that respect. In fact, they're generally like mutilators. Some people have tried to take them in a competitive list. How? By deepstriking just one of them, and then hiding with it, and pestering the backfield. Mutilators even do that better than Flayed Ones, as Nurgle Mutilators are I4 with various power weapons or I1 with Chainfists, and T5 with a 2+/5++.

Furthermore, their I2 means that an enemy with Flayed Ones near them is indeed going to charge with any counterassault element that's handy, and since most assault is faster than I2, he'll probably win combat, and then sweep, totally denying RP.

C) They're not scoring or Troops
If they were, their ability to Deep Strike and Infiltrate would be very helpful. You'd just infiltrate or DS them onto objectives (the Relic anyone, or any of the 6 Scouring Objectives?). You could even use an ADL with Comms to delay their coming in till enemy firepower has been depleted. However, they can't do that. This is another area where IA12 is quite good to them, if they're in fact troops there. Then you can do stuff like DSing them into enemy backfields, actually win some combats with Shred, and then hold objectives. When 5 out of 6 missions require troops to hold objectives, Flayed one's inability to gain points from holding them further reduces their use in a competitive list.

For Flayed Ones to be competitively used requires the solution of at least one of these problems. IA12 seems to be on the right track, solving C and somewhat B. Too bad Forgeworld lists aren't typically allowed at tournaments.


Triarch Praetorians are also generally bad, especially compared to Wraiths. I'm not going to go into the whole argument here, as it's been extensively covered elsewhere, but I'll make one comparison.

Preferred Enemy is better when you roll more dice to hit and to wound. It doesn't matter the quality of those attacks. Wraiths get more attacks at a higher S (and rending, which is lovely with PE) than Triarch Praetorians. A Destroyer Lord makes lots of things better, but he benefits wraiths more than Praetorians. Shame, because praetorians have relatively nice models. Lychguard have better models too, and boy do those suck right now. Actually, that's another example of the problem of Flayed Ones. Lychguard w/ Warscythes do massive damage against most targets when they hit, but they can't get to combat and get punk'd before they strike. Wraiths don't get punked as easily because of the 3++ and 2W.

On a separate note, you can't get Plague Marines as allied Troops. The Nurgle Lord only makes them troops if he's in your primary detachment.


tl;dr Flayed Ones are not considered competitive because they can't get to combat easily, aren't actually good in combat, and can't score.

Oh? Well CSM s with a MoN are still decently tough and extremely annoying to people with S3 guns. A Nurgle contemptor dread is pretty trolltastic with how hard it is to kill, and it gets some sweet guns.

 Kain wrote:
Oh? Well CSM s with a MoN are still decently tough and extremely annoying to people with S3 guns. A Nurgle contemptor dread is pretty trolltastic with how hard it is to kill, and it gets some sweet guns.

But the Contemptors are pretty expensive, and a Devvy squad with lascannons could snipe it across the board before it did anything.. And, MoN doesn't do anything for Toughness any more, it just gives Shrouded..

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Oh? Well CSM s with a MoN are still decently tough and extremely annoying to people with S3 guns. A Nurgle contemptor dread is pretty trolltastic with how hard it is to kill, and it gets some sweet guns.

But the Contemptors are pretty expensive, and a Devvy squad with lascannons could snipe it across the board before it did anything.. And, MoN doesn't do anything for Toughness any more, it just gives Shrouded..

4+ save vs glances, 6+ vs pens. Av13, -1 on all damage rolls against it. Loads of hull points. Hope you brought a lot of lascannons.

And the MoN affects toughness like usual, you must be thinking of Plaguebearers.

I really want Flayed Ones to be good, because they'd fit fantastically well with my Imotek/"Kommando Boss" looted 'cron allies.

But really, since assault from deep strike isn't a thing anymore, they just look pretty crap to me.

Oh boy! Another thread about Flayed Ones!
I bet it's going to have extremely lengthy comments that include multiple quoted sections which are actually just used for tit-for-tat "nah-unh" bitch fights.
I wonder if they'll come to a different conclusion this time?
...
(nope)

There are a lot of things against Flayed Ones:

- They share a limited FOC slot with a couple stronger options that you want to take multiples of
- They have no AP in close combat
- They have no ranged combat capability
- They are Initiative 2, so they are easy to lose to Sweeping Advance if you wiff on your Leadership (Reanimation Protocol won't save you from this)
- They are Initiative 2, so they pretty much never get to knock off some of the enemy models before they get to strike
- They can't assault on Turn 1 (Infiltration is not an option in 6E; they can't deploy normally)
- They can't assault when they come in from Outflank or Deep Strike
- They don't have any Dedicated Transport options

Also, ShadarLogoth, Reanimation Protocol is worse than Feel No Pain in most cases. Not all, but in most. This is because that no matter what, your model is a casualty. FNP has a chance to prevent the model becoming a casualty. That means it has a chance to prevent you from losing combat and dealing with a Sweeping Advance, or losing a number of attacks before you can strike, and so on. Provided you don't die to a Sweeping Advance, you'll save as many models as FNP will. But no more than that.

And finally: they suck at their job. They aren't good at combat. Sure, if you managed to get a charge off with a full unit of 20, and managed to not lose any, you might kill 6-7 Space Marines. But that's 260 points to kill 90-105 points and is such an outlier situation in the amount of luck required that its not even really applicable.

For grins I did a mock battle. Feel free to ignore but thought I'd share anyways:

It's hard to get them into combat.

Fundamental misunderstanding of their role. You use their flexible deployment to get them to an enemy objective. If their is a unit there, you assault it, if not, you contest it. GtG if people shoot at you. Eat Bullets.

B) When they're in a fight, they're not actually that good.

They will beat all shooty units, which is what the game is primarily comprised of. They also beat some very good assault units, like TH/SS termies. I understand their numbers better then anyone here. I've played more games with them then this whole board combined.

C) They're not scoring or Troops

Another fundamental misunderstanding of their role. You use them to contest, not to score. And usually, to get linebreaker. That's 4 Victory Points right there. If you don't think that is potentially worth the investment, I don't what else to tell you.

For Flayed Ones to be competitively used requires the solution of at least one of these problems. IA12 seems to be on the right track, solving C and somewhat B. Too bad Forgeworld lists aren't typically allowed at tournaments.

I agree the IA12 buffs are quite nice.

Triarch Praetorians are also generally bad, especially compared to Wraiths. I'm not going to go into the whole argument here, as it's been extensively covered elsewhere, but I'll make one comparison.

No, they really aren't. You can make bigger units with them, meaning you get more mileage out of the DLord's buffs. Triarchs with a res orb also have superior RPP then Wraiths in most cases. Personally, that makes a big difference to me, as Wraiths are notorious for getting shot up before they reach close combat. Another big advantage of Triarch's over Wraiths is the justify the res orb, and having a DLord with a res orb on the field is amazingly good, as you can readily redeploy PE and Res Orb to any unit as needed. Wraiths are good, and when taking the DLord out of the equation I think they are clearly better. However, in terms of DLord escort, I'd take the TPs any day of the week.

Wraiths don't get punked as easily because of the 3++ and 2W.

The Triarch Praetorians are simply more resilient in more cases then the Wraiths. This is even further magnified with Night Fighting, which the TPs benefit from but the Wraiths don't (unless they are >36" away). For an Imotehk list, this makes a big difference.







Automatically Appended Next Post:

Also, ShadarLogoth, Reanimation Protocol is worse than Feel No Pain in most cases. Not all, but in most. This is because that no matter what, your model is a casualty. FNP has a chance to prevent the model becoming a casualty. That means it has a chance to prevent you from losing combat and dealing with a Sweeping Advance, or losing a number of attacks before you can strike, and so on. Provided you don't die to a Sweeping Advance, you'll save as many models as FNP will. But no more than that.

RP doesn't get taken away by instant death and double toughness. FNP has advantages, as you point out, but when you are going to ground on an objective and eating bullets, RP is superior, as long as you don't get wiped. Trust me, it's a lot harder then most people think to clear off 15 to 20 Flayed Ones GtG on an objective.

And finally: they suck at their job. They aren't good at combat. Sure, if you managed to get a charge off with a full unit of 20, and managed to not lose any, you might kill 6-7 Space Marines. But that's 260 points to kill 90-105 points and is such an outlier situation in the amount of luck required that its not even really applicable.

No, they really don't. Any I1 Term (including Oblits), Guard Blobs, any primarily shooting unit. There are many, many more units taken in the actual meta they can do their job against then units that they can't. How do I know this? Because I use them. All the time.

- They share a limited FOC slot with a couple stronger options that you want to take multiples of

There isn't a single competitive Necron list that I am aware of that maxes out the elite slot. Not one.

- They have no AP in close combat
- They have no ranged combat capability

They are a high resiliency horde based CC unit. Neither of those stats are relevant to that role.

- They are Initiative 2, so they are easy to lose to Sweeping Advance if you wiff on your Leadership (Reanimation Protocol won't save you from this)

Yes, but more often then not Ld10 and your boat load of attacks will. This really doesn't happen that often. Its about as likely as the first shot lascannon into the Land Raider.

- They are Initiative 2, so they pretty much never get to knock off some of the enemy models before they get to strike

Yes, and when you are assaulting Tacticals, or Fire Warriors, or Kroot, or Cultists, or anything from the Eldar or Dark Eldar books (just about), or gaunts, or IG....really, most things you send them against, aren't going to hit very hard.

- They can't assault on Turn 1 (Infiltration is not an option in 6E; they can't deploy normally)
- They can't assault when they come in from Outflank or Deep Strike

Neither can 99.99999999% of the units in the game. Not sure why this is relevant to the discussion.

- They don't have any Dedicated Transport options

Yes, but they have dedicated deployment options.


Again, I'll just keep repeating this until people who understand how you win and lose games in this edition get it. You use their flexible deployment options to take a backfield objective, get linebreaker, and then you make them a threat. Once the unit is worth 4 VPs (1 + the 3 you are denying your opponent), they become a priority target. Which is cool, because you then GtG in the area terrain you just took and eat bullets behind a 3++ and RP.

It takes on average 270 Bolter shots to kill 20 Flayed Ones GtG on an objective. 270 Bolter Shots!

How about a Helldrake? If I'm properly spread out, he's hitting maybe 4 models. That works out to 2.22 dead Flayed Ones a turn after RP. That's not going to get it done either.

Tau with ML support? Legit threat, no doubt. Fortunately, the delayed arrival of the Flayed Ones will give you time to knock the MLs out of commission. And, like always, spread out. As much as you can.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

 skoffs wrote:
Oh boy! Another thread about Flayed Ones!
I bet it's going to have extremely lengthy comments that include multiple quoted sections which are actually just used for tit-for-tat "nah-unh" bitch fights.
I wonder if they'll come to a different conclusion this time?
...
(nope)

Skoffs knows me too well.

I think I might agree on them being an ok objective contester. Same price as a Warrior, better in CC which is where you'd want a contestor usually, can deep strike rather than slowly slog up the map... but thats without consideration to the opportunity cost of taking them (other elite choices)

Also I thought linebreaker was scoring units only? How do you make Flayed Ones scoring?

 Dakkamite wrote:
I think I might agree on them being an ok objective contester. Same price as a Warrior, better in CC which is where you'd want a contestor usually, can deep strike rather than slowly slog up the map... but thats without consideration to the opportunity cost of taking them (other elite choices)

Also I thought linebreaker was scoring units only? How do you make Flayed Ones scoring?

Any denial unit can get linebreaker (as well as scoring units of course).

 Kain wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Chaos lords are nifty, cheap, and get a lot of goodies, they're rarely wasted points. Oh and they can randomly turn into Daemon Princes.

-_- Once in a hundred games.. And, why would I want a Chaos Lord when I have a Destroyer Lord who does the same thing but better?

Because that's one less slot for a royal court. Also Helldrakes, Obliterators, Contemptor dreads, and plague marines.

Royal courts are garbage. I speak from experience

Really? Goddamnit, I want to do Necrons on the cheap and an army of 20 models sounds pretty good on my wallet...

 Dakkamite wrote:
Really? Goddamnit, I want to do Necrons on the cheap and an army of 20 models sounds pretty good on my wallet...

Yeah, that really is the biggest knock against them that I can't argue. The current models aren't popular, and aren't cheap. I've had 20 Metals since the first Dex dropped, by I think its criminal how much they charge now.

My suggestion, convert Warriors. Just slap on any CC bits you have lying around, and then throw some green stuff on here and there for the fleshy parts. Much cheaper. Or, by the metals on Ebay if you can find them cheap enough.

Yeah man thats exactly what I have in mind. Well, either that, or giving Nobs some Necron bits to go with the other 'looted crons' I've got in mind

ShadarLogoth wrote:RP doesn't get taken away by instant death and double toughness. FNP has advantages, as you point out, but when you are going to ground on an objective and eating bullets, RP is superior, as long as you don't get wiped. Trust me, it's a lot harder then most people think to clear off 15 to 20 Flayed Ones GtG on an objective.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

And finally: they suck at their job. They aren't good at combat. Sure, if you managed to get a charge off with a full unit of 20, and managed to not lose any, you might kill 6-7 Space Marines. But that's 260 points to kill 90-105 points and is such an outlier situation in the amount of luck required that its not even really applicable.

No, they really don't. Any I1 Term (including Oblits), Guard Blobs, any primarily shooting unit. There are many, many more units taken in the actual meta they can do their job against then units that they can't. How do I know this? Because I use them. All the time.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

- They have no AP in close combat
- They have no ranged combat capability

They are a high resiliency horde based CC unit. Neither of those stats are relevant to that role.

They are no more resilient than Necron Warriors, can't be taken in greater numbers than Necron Warriors, and cost the same as Necron Warriors. I'd say Necron Warriors are potentially more Resilient despite the identical relevant stats/rules simply because they have access to Nightscythes and Ghost Arks. All Flayed Ones do is trade the Gauss for a higher Attack characteristic, and trade the Transport options for Infiltrate and Deep Strike. And they give up the ability to score for this!

- They are Initiative 2, so they pretty much never get to knock off some of the enemy models before they get to strike

ShadarLogoth wrote:Yes, and when you are assaulting Tacticals, or Fire Warriors, or Kroot, or Cultists, or anything from the Eldar or Dark Eldar books (just about), or gaunts, or IG....really, most things you send them against, aren't going to hit very hard.

But they aren't likely to wipe a unit in a turn so they risk a counter-charge unit coming in to wipe them out. The easiest example for me to give is one from my primary Codex: Thunderwolf Cavalry. The way I use 'em is specifically for cases like this. As I had stated in my previous post, Grey Hunters are going to be painful for Flayed Ones to deal with anyways, and the TWC coming to the rescue will end them quick. Honestly, I'd be surprised if they would be able to contest anything at the end of the game. Going to Ground doesn't help against assault, or anything that ignores cover. Sure, Flamers or a Whirlwind might be only AP 5, but its better than you getting a 2+ save from GtG.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

- They can't assault on Turn 1 (Infiltration is not an option in 6E; they can't deploy normally)
- They can't assault when they come in from Outflank or Deep Strike

Neither can 99.99999999% of the units in the game. Not sure why this is relevant to the discussion.

It is relevant. They either are Infiltrating, Outflanking, or Deep Striking. Its their only way to get any forward projection since they lack transportation. It also leaves them vulnerable for a minimum of 1 turn to enemy shooting, which despite what you say and what you say you have experienced is still an important consideration. If Flayed Ones are really a threat, several armies can end them in a single turn of shooting if its a real threat to them winning the game.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

- They don't have any Dedicated Transport options

Yes, but they have dedicated deployment options.


Again, I'll just keep repeating this until people who understand how you win and lose games in this edition get it. You use their flexible deployment options to take a backfield objective, get linebreaker, and then you make them a threat. Once the unit is worth 4 VPs (1 + the 3 you are denying your opponent), they become a priority target. Which is cool, because you then GtG in the area terrain you just took and eat bullets behind a 3++ and RP.

I'm all about flexibility in deployment. It wins you games. I try to work it into every list I build. At the same time though, there are other things in the Necron Codex that can give you things like Linebreaker. There are other things that can deny (or claim) an Objective. Almost all of them can contribute more to the fight as well.

ShadarLogoth wrote:It takes on average 270 Bolter shots to kill 20 Flayed Ones GtG on an objective. 270 Bolter Shots!

Which is meaningless. Things other than Bolters are going to be aimed at them if the objective is going to make a difference in the game. Things that either have Ignores Cover or can put out a lot more wounds (Templates and Blasts).

It also highly depends on what the available cover is. Most cover in this game is a 5+, meaning you have a 4+ save if you Go To Ground. You'd have to be behind an ADL or Fortification in order to get a 2+ Cover Save by Going to Ground, or be Imperial Guard and use the Incoming! Order. Chances are you are only going to be getting a 4+ save, not a 3+ or better. Though all of that depends on the table, where there is no way to predict it unless you know the available terrain ahead of time. There's usually only 1 Ruin on the tables I normally play on.

ShadarLogoth wrote:How about a Helldrake? If I'm properly spread out, he's hitting maybe 4 models. That works out to 2.22 dead Flayed Ones a turn after RP. That's not going to get it done either.

Ask any Ork player how easy it is to spread a large unit out and to keep it spread out. You are basically throwing away your superior cover save you've been going on about as well.


Anyways, I personally have not seen Flayed Ones make a credible threat. They kill a few models and die and never successfully contest an objective long enough to matter. So our anecdotal evidence cancels each other out. That just leaves the rules on the paper, and personally I can't see why you'd want to take 15-20 Flayed Ones instead of more Necron Warriors, let alone pretty much any of the other options available in the Codex.

I'm glad they work for you, but to me that's similar to the people who say Blood Claws are good because they work for them. Not exactly the same mind you, but its how it comes off. If you were in the NW or I was near you I'd say settle it on the table!

They are no more resilient than Necron Warriors, can't be taken in greater numbers than Necron Warriors, and cost the same as Necron Warriors. I'd say Necron Warriors are potentially more Resilient despite the identical relevant stats/rules simply because they have access to Nightscythes and Ghost Arks. All Flayed Ones do is trade the Gauss for a higher Attack characteristic, and trade the Transport options for Infiltrate and Deep Strike. And they give up the ability to score for this!

As I said before though, can you see the advantages of having Flayed Ones contest an enemy DZ objective over Warriors? Sure, there are some things that can take out FOs in CC, but the list of things that can take out FOs in CC is much shorter then the list of things that can take out Warriors in CC. Also, you lose nothing when GtG.

But they aren't likely to wipe a unit in a turn so they risk a counter-charge unit coming in to wipe them out. The easiest example for me to give is one from my primary Codex: Thunderwolf Cavalry. The way I use 'em is specifically for cases like this. As I had stated in my previous post, Grey Hunters are going to be painful for Flayed Ones to deal with anyways, and the TWC coming to the rescue will end them quick. Honestly, I'd be surprised if they would be able to contest anything at the end of the game. Going to Ground doesn't help against assault, or anything that ignores cover. Sure, Flamers or a Whirlwind might be only AP 5, but its better than you getting a 2+ save from GtG.

Most weapons that ignore cover still have to contend with the 4+, and even weapons that ignore both have to contend with RP. It's a big difference.

Space Wolves don't have a lot of prime contenders for things I would assault with FOs, I'll give you that. Grey Hunters are certainly doable if CA fails to go off, or they have bit whittled down a bit. TWC are straight tough. But I also have a DLord, Triarch Praetorians, and Wraiths in my list. So I've got other things for your TWC to deal with. I doubt if facing me you would send them at the FOs.

It is relevant. They either are Infiltrating, Outflanking, or Deep Striking. Its their only way to get any forward projection since they lack transportation. It also leaves them vulnerable for a minimum of 1 turn to enemy shooting, which despite what you say and what you say you have experienced is still an important consideration. If Flayed Ones are really a threat, several armies can end them in a single turn of shooting if its a real threat to them winning the game.

My point is, that is a restriction almost all CC units have. The second point just isn't as likely as you think, and to pull it off, they are dedicating tons of firepower to the task. At the end of the day, I would rather them shoot my 13 point flayed ones then my 40 point Wraiths or TPs, merely because Flayed Ones eat the bullets more efficiently.

I'm all about flexibility in deployment. It wins you games. I try to work it into every list I build. At the same time though, there are other things in the Necron Codex that can give you things like Linebreaker. There are other things that can deny (or claim) an Objective. Almost all of them can contribute more to the fight as well.

Sure, there are other options, but they have short comings that make them less desirable for my purposes. Namely, the only other unit that compares in RPP are Warriors, who don't stand a chance in most cases in CC. This makes a big difference for me.

Which is meaningless. Things other than Bolters are going to be aimed at them if the objective is going to make a difference in the game. Things that either have Ignores Cover or can put out a lot more wounds (Templates and Blasts).

How often do those templates come on units that don't have other small arms? How often do blasts ignore cover? Heavy flamers are a concern, and they are also one of the least taken weapons in the game. Even a Helldrake isn't great against them, as I mentioned above.

It also highly depends on what the available cover is. Most cover in this game is a 5+, meaning you have a 4+ save if you Go To Ground.

3+ cover save in area terrain (when GtG), always (GtG gives you +2 to cover in area terrain). 2+ if its ruins. I don't play on planet bowling ball boards, but every major tournament has area terrain.

Ask any Ork player how easy it is to spread a large unit out and to keep it spread out. You are basically throwing away your superior cover save you've been going on about as well.

Most basic pieces of area terrain are plenty big enough for my purposes.

Anyways, I personally have not seen Flayed Ones make a credible threat. They kill a few models and die and never successfully contest an objective long enough to matter. So our anecdotal evidence cancels each other out.

Cancels each other out? I have some hundred games with Flayed Ones under my belt. Honestly, how many times have you seen them in play? I seriously doubt your anecdotal evidence pool is large. My is enough to make definitive statements with. The thing is, there isn't much to the tactic. You deploy, you get into area terrain threatening or contesting an objective. If they shoot at you. you GtG. Either they successfully take the objective or they eat bullets that could be going into less resilient units. Its basically a win-win.

I'm glad they work for you, but to me that's similar to the people who say Blood Claws are good because they work for them. Not exactly the same mind you, but its how it comes off. If you were in the NW or I was near you I'd say settle it on the table!

No doubt.

Flayed Ones make for a decent denial/bullet magnet unit, but seen as most MEQ armies now run flamers for free the area terrain save goes and it's back to the problem that they likely will be downed by a squad with a flamer in range. Plus the I2 thing really does hurt when you try and bog the obj. holders down. If people want to run them that's fair enough, but imho I'd rather have another warrior unit for the same price.

 Mitranekh the Omniscient wrote:
Flayed Ones make for a decent denial/bullet magnet unit, but seen as most MEQ armies now run flamers for free the area terrain save goes and it's back to the problem that they likely will be downed by a squad with a flamer in range. Plus the I2 thing really does hurt when you try and bog the obj. holders down. If people want to run them that's fair enough, but imho I'd rather have another warrior unit for the same price.

A normal Flamer doesn't take away their save or their RP. Hitting Flayed Ones with a normal flamer is not more damaging then hitting MEq with a normal flamer (ie, it doesn't kill much of anything).

Fair enough my mistake. I mean I've run flayed ones once, ended up with a grey hunters squad charging me down before they could do anything. But I just don't think they're in the right section, GW should have made them troops (but thats a different debate entirely). If they were I'd run them for objective grabs, but I'm digressing. They can work, but you need terrain and/or some good fortune for them to hit combat with enough 'oomph'

Royal Court armies aren't the most competitive Dakkamite, but they are hilarious! I've run a Royal Court Disco Inferno several times, and every game was hysterically fun, even the ones I lost.

To build them, there's a couple ways you could do it. I didn't want to get Finecast/Finec$ast/whatever single models at high prices, so I just bought a Lychguard Box, a Deathmark Box, and a Warrior Box. In between making warriors, you just stick Deathmark Heads and Praetorian Staff thingies on Warrior bodies, and you have good Crypteks. Mix and Match Lychguard Warscythes and Praetorian stuff, and you have perfect Lords. There, you have a converted Royal Court. Also, using Trazyn as your Warlord makes things so much more trolly too. Then the RCDI is scoring and has anti-horde stuff too.


Back to Flayed Ones. I'll just address a single point about their use as Objective Deniers. They do that job that not terribly, considering they have DS. However, there's something that does their job so much better, and also gives you seven points instead of four. That is Warriors in Nightscythes. You drop them off late game (with no real scatter!), and they hold objectives, instead of contesting them. They don't get shot at because you've killed a lot of other stuff with the Nightscythes. You even have 'flexible deployment,' as if the Nightscythes are destroyed, you can just walk them onto your backfield and hold your own backfield objectives.

The tactic you've described isn't a bad tactic in and of itself. Contesting (or holding) enemy objectives with guys coming in from unexpected angles is a fundamentally good strategy. I'm not disputing that at all, I just played a GK list with Mordrak and Outflanking/Deep-Striking Strike Squads. Deployment options are really powerful this edition. It's just that I don't see Flayed Ones as optimal for that purpose. Other armies can do it better than Flayed Ones can. The Necron Codex can do it better than Flayed Ones can, with Warriors in Nightscythes, or Crypteks with Veil of Darkness/Obyron.


Your comments on the survivability of Triarch Praetorians has got me thinking a bit. They are almost certainly tougher against regular old small arms fire than Wraiths are. There is a case to be made that, in a meta with a lot of troops, small arms survivability is better than heavy firepower survivability. However, there's so much synergy that they DLord has with Wraiths even in terms of survivability. The DLord has the 2+ save, and stands in front of the wraiths, tanking small arms fire. When the enemy fires plasma/melta/whatever, then you LoS to a 3++ save. Praetorians don't have that. They're survivable in the same way the Lord is, which makes them better against small arms fire (More durable than Plague Marines!), but critically weak against things like Demolisher Cannons, Ion Accelerators, Plasma Cannons, etc. When these things are present, in addition to lots of small arms fire, Wraiths + DLord are better. I'd love to see someone take Triarch Praetorians instead of Wraiths to a Nova Open or something and make it work, but with the kinds of firepower available in this meta, I don't see it working very well.

Pretorians don't work because you can get two squads of wraiths for the cost of 1 squad of Pretorians.

 Mitranekh the Omniscient wrote:
Fair enough my mistake. I mean I've run flayed ones once, ended up with a grey hunters squad charging me down before they could do anything. But I just don't think they're in the right section, GW should have made them troops (but thats a different debate entirely). If they were I'd run them for objective grabs, but I'm digressing. They can work, but you need terrain and/or some good fortune for them to hit combat with enough 'oomph'

Well they're troops in IA12! And they also get shred, so they're just heads and shoulders better than their codex counterparts. And unlike GW Flayed Ones, FW Flayed ones aren't butt ugly modelwise.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dakkamite wrote:
Really? Goddamnit, I want to do Necrons on the cheap and an army of 20 models sounds pretty good on my wallet...

Flayed One Models and Cheap in the same sentence?

Oh boy are you in for a surprise.

If only my group ran IA rules.... But at least they have 1 use somewhere, now all GW has to do is FAQ or edit the Codex ones for a small points increase and we're laughing!

IA flayed ones make monstrous creatures cry with the number of rerolling wounds they can put out. Now if only furious charge were easier to get in a necron army.

 Kain wrote:
IA flayed ones make monstrous creatures cry with the number of rerolling wounds they can put out. Now if only furious charge were easier to get in a necron army.

Nemesor Zandrekh anyone? Bit pricey but itc he'd be the best thing to happen to flayed ones since.... Well since IA12 tbh but I'll gloss over that. He'd be ideal to make them the near-best monster hunters crons have

 Mitranekh the Omniscient wrote:

 Kain wrote:
IA flayed ones make monstrous creatures cry with the number of rerolling wounds they can put out. Now if only furious charge were easier to get in a necron army.

Nemesor Zandrekh anyone? Bit pricey but itc he'd be the best thing to happen to flayed ones since.... Well since IA12 tbh but I'll gloss over that. He'd be ideal to make them the near-best monster hunters crons have

There are people who don't take Nemesor?

Just kidding, but the guy is supremely nifty.

To loosely quote skoffs, Nemesor is a title not a first name, just so you know (sorry I know that's picky but it was bugging me). But yes, he is nasty particularly at the helm of an RCDI with Obyron (and maybe Trazyn, who knows). And his perks for flayed ones, especially the IA ones.... Ow. Just, ow.

 Kain wrote:

There are people who don't take Nemesor?

Just kidding, but the guy is supremely nifty.

Only those who run the quality HQs and by that I mean 2 D. Lords.

 NecronLord3 wrote:

 Kain wrote:

There are people who don't take Nemesor?

Just kidding, but the guy is supremely nifty.

Only those who run the quality HQs and by that I mean 2 D. Lords.

You mean the WAAC spammers who don't really care if their opponent hates the game. D. Lords are great yes, but 1 is enough imho. Fluff-wise it makes less sense than an overlord, plus you lose tactical flexibility and no RCDI anyway, Zandrekh would be great alongside a D. Lord, Furious Charge would make him Str8 and able to ID any MEQ HQ in a challenge instead of whittling down past inv. saves, Hit and Run for getting out of Tarpit combats, or take Night Vision away from the DE triple dark lance/triple disintegrator ravager all set to snipe him.

Does that IA12 HQ grant fearless to units he joins?
If so...

 skoffs wrote:
Does that IA12 HQ grant fearless to units he joins?
If so...

Fearless automatcaly confers to a unit, as long as one model in the unit has it.

So, yes, Kutlakh does confer fearless to any unit he joins.

Only those who run the quality HQs and by that I mean 2 D. Lords.

Zahndrekh is a very tactically flexible HQ. Being able to remove things like Stealth, or grant them to one of your own units is a great benefit, and can be pivotal. Dlords are great, but they are not the only great choice.

The tactic you've described isn't a bad tactic in and of itself. Contesting (or holding) enemy objectives with guys coming in from unexpected angles is a fundamentally good strategy. I'm not disputing that at all, I just played a GK list with Mordrak and Outflanking/Deep-Striking Strike Squads. Deployment options are really powerful this edition. It's just that I don't see Flayed Ones as optimal for that purpose. Other armies can do it better than Flayed Ones can. The Necron Codex can do it better than Flayed Ones can, with Warriors in Nightscythes, or Crypteks with Veil of Darkness/Obyron.

Very legitimate point, Thariinye. Dropping Warriors off with a Nightscythe is another way to accomplish this.

The reason I use Flayed Ones instead are A.) I run a null vehicle, null flyer army. Vehicles and Flyers mean less boots on the ground, which ultimately would work against the overall scope of the army. B.) The Warrior tactic relies on 1.) having the NightScythes not die, which against some more 6th edition focuses armies is no guaruntee, 2.) going last, and the game being over the turn you drop them, because 5 Warriors aren't going to hold gak if anything shoots or assaults them, particularly when they are standing in the opponents DZ, and 3.) a hefty investment in Nightscythes (at least 4), because one will never accomplish its goal.

Crytpek with Veil and Obyron both end up being more expensive options for less a less resilient overall unit, regardless of who you are attaching it to.



Also, fair points on the heavy weapons versus TPs/Wraiths. Keep in mind, many of the heavy weapons double T the Wraiths, which is what makes the relative RPP of the two units so close. Plasma and Helldrakes are really the only twoweapon profile the Wraiths have a clear advantage against. Virtually every other weapon profile is either a tie or favors the TPs (Missles, for instance, are dead even if the TPs have a 5+ cover, but favor the TPs if they have Stealth or Shrouded, which, considering they both are in an army that can force NF, is pretty relevant) .

But again, fair point. I can respect you at least understand what the goal of the unit it is before attempting to tear it down with irrelevant preconcieved notions, which is all to common in these discussions, like this gem below:

Pretorians don't work because you can get two squads of wraiths for the cost of 1 squad of Pretorians.

Which, not only is it not true, it's so damn irrelevant to either units purpose on the field it makes my brain hurt that someone actually wasted vital space on Al Gores sacred intertron to post it.

And your tactical advice still reads like a hand book of what not to do in 40k. 420 pts of Wraiths in two six man squads are far superior in EVERY way to a 400pt 10 man squad of Praetorians. This is fact.

 NecronLord3 wrote:
And your tactical advice still reads like a hand book of what not to do in 40k. 420 pts of Wraiths in two six man squads are far superior in EVERY way to a 400pt 10 man squad of Praetorians. This is fact.

Cute.

A.) No one only spends 420 points on 12 Wraiths. Most configurations would have at least 60 points in Whipcoils.
B.) The TPs are more resilient to a wider array of bullets. VB/PC are superior to Wraiths when assaulting vehicles, while Rod TPs are superior to Wraiths when assaulting elite infantry. So your "fact" happens to be completely false.

Thanks for the ad hominem though. It really adds to your completely inaccurate "facts" and makes your argument all the more persuasive.

I don't need to persuade anyone. I'm amused at your tactical inaccuracies. They are the worst advice I have ever seen anyone give in the history of 40k. You should start a podcast!

 NecronLord3 wrote:
I don't need to persuade anyone. I'm amused at your tactical inaccuracies. They are the worst advice I have ever seen anyone give in the history of 40k. You should start a podcast!

Inaccuracies?

If I said something inaccurate, please point it out, with facts and evidence to support it.

Otherwise, you are just trolling. Which, have fun with that, I guess.

More drivel from Necronlord3. It's really no surprise.

Please, Necronlord3 how about you actually back up your position with some simple math?

ShadarLogoth has at the very least, done the math and shown the accuracy behind his statements. Necronlord3, all you do is makeup outlandish scenarios and attack people.

I don't need to counter all of shadarlogoths bad advice. I've done it to death already. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/600/480149.page#5177314

 NecronLord3 wrote:
I don't need to counter all of shadarlogoths bad advice. I've done it to death already. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/600/480149.page#5177314

I just filtered through all your posts, and most of it is the same thing. ShadarLogoth, has actually math, and analysis in there, to support his position. You do not.

LOL, yeah I remember that post. I think it's awesome that you are so proud of it when anyone who plays Necrons can easily point out how inaccurate it is.


You seem to be fuzzy on the whole facts and evidence thing. I'll help you a bit, it's not quite the same as wild ass inaccurate speculation.

They just needed to be Troops and they'd be fine. For now, they arebottom tier. Reference the old FO thread, no desire to dig this up again.

 Sigvatr wrote:
They just needed to be Troops and they'd be fine. For now, they arebottom tier. Reference the old FO thread, no desire to dig this up again.

Hence why most people who do use flayed ones tend to run them in the IA list where they're not only in the troops slot, but get a much needed buff that also makes them quite scary to MCs they can catch via swamping them in rerollable (and thus vastly more) wounds.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
LOL, yeah I remember that post. I think it's awesome that you are so proud of it when anyone who plays Necrons can easily point out how inaccurate it is.


You seem to be fuzzy on the whole facts and evidence thing. I'll help you a bit, it's not quite the same as wild ass inaccurate speculation.

Nothing I've said is inaccurate. I don't need to use math to prove to you an apple is red when you say it's blue. This is warhammer not math hammer and the bs statistics you may cling to mean nothing to actual game play. Wraiths are leaps and bounds far superior to Praetorians in everyway, except for ressurection protocols which is no saving grace with the amount of AP 2 and 3 weapons in the game, not to mention covers save ignoring equipment. FOs also blow for all the reasons listed in this thread and more. Trying to convince people otherwise is wishful thinking at best. Please show me the wining lot for any major tournament that included either of these choices, let alone both. It doesn't exist.

If I may interject into this "debate"...
I don't know what's been said outside of this between you two, tbh I don't care. But you both have a point. Yes, NecronLord3 wraiths are really nasty, no-one disagrees. Just not everyone swears by the same tactics otherwise it would be boring. As for the mathhammer thing, you're right it isn'tall about the numbers. If it was 40k would have died most likely as only maths nerds would play it. But it isn't about what's kick-ass in tournaments alone, some make a list based on fluff and things they like, I know I do and it works for me. There's no definitive fact, no right or wrong, just what people think. So can we please discontinue this bickering because it gets no-one anywhere and spoils a perfectly good thread. Rant over.

 Mitranekh the Omniscient wrote:
If I may interject into this "debate"...
I don't know what's been said outside of this between you two, tbh I don't care. But you both have a point. Yes, NecronLord3 wraiths are really nasty, no-one disagrees. Just not everyone swears by the same tactics otherwise it would be boring. As for the mathhammer thing, you're right it isn'tall about the numbers. If it was 40k would have died most likely as only maths nerds would play it. But it isn't about what's kick-ass in tournaments alone, some make a list based on fluff and things they like, I know I do and it works for me. There's no definitive fact, no right or wrong, just what people think. So can we please discontinue this bickering because it gets no-one anywhere and spoils a perfectly good thread. Rant over.

I totally agree with you but I am being attacked and told I am wrong when I point out that the main reason Triarch Praetorians are not as good as Wraiths is due to their cost vs their effectiveness.

You can play what ever you want and ShadarLorgoth can run all the Failed Ones and TPs he wants. But I will not stand for him telling me I am wrong when I am giving my opinion or when I am absolutely right in what I am saying. Just so he can interject his very one sided opinion in every thread relating to FOs.

I RECOMMENDED flayed ones to someone who was puzzling over how to kill off Tau. Do not forget that if you go second, infiltrators can charge round 1. So if the enemy has moved at all towards you (and even Tau havce lements that will do this) you can be on them. Infiltrating is done LAST, so you will know where to go to cut the enemy off.

Flayed ones have a lot of attacks on the charge. They are capable combatants and as was said, Zhandrek in particulr (the best character in the codex) is a huge asset to them.

I like Flayed ones. They give the army a dimension that Necron players have not really explored much in my area. Croissants and command Barges soak up a lot of points that might otherwise go to a more "bodies on the field" approach, but now that anti-air is not so rare nor easy to kill Before it comes in (The new Eldar Crimson Hunter is a terror to other flyers for example), more and more the Necrons are going to have to adjust a LITTLE and give themselves a chance. Can you imagine how sad a Croissants of doom list might be against three Crimson Hunters and an Autarch that goes second? Lol. That would be a bad day for sure.

In any event, I say use 'em. They make for an interesting approach and takes away options forthe enemy which is cool.

Nothing I've said is inaccurate

In the thread you linked you said Flayed Ones have 2 attacks. You also keep saying Wraiths are superior to TPs in everyway, but the fact is they are not. I've already said this once, but I'll say it again. VB/PC TPs are superior against vehicles, Rod TPs are superior against elite infantry, and all TPs are superior in resilience per point. If anything I just said is inaccurate, please prove it. If not, please conceded to point that Wraiths being superior in everyway is simply false.

I don't need to use math to prove to you an apple is red when you say it's blue. This is warhammer not math hammer and the bs statistics you may cling to mean nothing to actual game play.

But when TPs are more resilient, and the math proves that...which of us is calling the apple blue?

Wraiths are leaps and bounds far superior to Praetorians in everyway, except for ressurection protocols which is no saving grace with the amount of AP 2 and 3 weapons in the game, not to mention covers save ignoring equipment.

What do AP 2 and 3 have to do with Reanimation Protocols? Yes, low AP cover save ignoring equipment generally favors the Wraiths. The simple fact is there are a lot more S 3-6 and 8+ weapons in the game then low AP cover save ignoring equipment.

FOs also blow for all the reasons listed in this thread and more. Trying to convince people otherwise is wishful thinking at best.

Every point has been rebutted. As it stands, I have yet to see a convincing argument against them. People are welcome to come away with any conclusions they wish. A wise person would understand good advice and leave their preconceived notions at the door.

Please show me the wining lot for any major tournament that included either of these choices, let alone both. It doesn't exist

You could easily replace one of the units of Wraiths in the current cookie cutter list with Triarch Praetorians and win. The two units simply are not divergent enough for one to be clearly superior. I feel Wraiths are better with no DLord escort, TPs are better with. I feel the math and experience both easily support this position.

Flayed Ones are unpopular, because no one even bothers to try them. Its a circular event fed by the internet echo chambers. Everyone that has ever posted on one of these threads and gotten a few games out of them has come away with a much more positive opinion then the people who never use them, or fight against them. Weird how that is.

You can play what ever you want and ShadarLorgoth can run all the Failed Ones and TPs he wants. But I will not stand for him telling me I am wrong when I am giving my opinion or when I am absolutely right in what I am saying. Just so he can interject his very one sided opinion in every thread relating to FOs.

Ah, yes, your opinion is right because, well, because you say its right. My position, which I back up with facts and evidence, is one sided and flawed. I keep inviting you to prove me wrong. You keep abstaining from that act. We're not dealing with opinions here. We are dealing with facts.

VB/PCs are superior to anti-tank role then Wraiths. Fact.

TPs are more resilient to a wider array of weapons, particularly if you bring along Night Fighting mechanics. Fact.

Flayed One are tied with Warriors as the most resilient units in the entire codex, and combined with CC ability and flexible deployment, make them very good at the task of contesting opponent deployment zone objectives. Fact.

Please pick one of these facts and refute it. Please.

I already have refuted all your points in the linked thread you are a waste of everyone's time, and I am not doing it again.

 NecronLord3 wrote:
I already have refuted all your points in the linked thread you are a waste of everyone's time, and I am not doing it again.

I just read the linked thread again, and sadly, you still haven't refuted a single point with actual facts. I'll take your continued refusal to do so as admittance that you have no true facts to back up your position.

Unfortunate.

I'll just wait for one person to come on here and agree with you as to Flayed Ones and TPs being so much better than Warriors and Wraiths.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jancoran wrote:
I RECOMMENDED flayed ones to someone who was puzzling over how to kill off Tau. Do not forget that if you go second, infiltrators can charge round 1. So if the enemy has moved at all towards you (and even Tau havce lements that will do this) you can be on them. Infiltrating is done LAST, so you will know where to go to cut the enemy off.

Flayed ones have a lot of attacks on the charge. They are capable combatants and as was said, Zhandrek in particulr (the best character in the codex) is a huge asset to them.

I like Flayed ones. They give the army a dimension that Necron players have not really explored much in my area. Croissants and command Barges soak up a lot of points that might otherwise go to a more "bodies on the field" approach, but now that anti-air is not so rare nor easy to kill Before it comes in (The new Eldar Crimson Hunter is a terror to other flyers for example), more and more the Necrons are going to have to adjust a LITTLE and give themselves a chance. Can you imagine how sad a Croissants of doom list might be against three Crimson Hunters and an Autarch that goes second? Lol. That would be a bad day for sure.

In any event, I say use 'em. They make for an interesting approach and takes away options forthe enemy which is cool.

with the Tau you are going to have to be setup within 18" to pull of a long shot charge and satisfy the rules for infiltrate. You are going to at least be receiving 1 round of shooting and then if you survive and do not break and run, you will receive another round of overwatch which any decent Tau player can be using reasonable BS with. Not to mention most other Tau weapons can easily have range on that FO squad. It doesn't even require the Tau to focus the majority of their army on the squad.

You cannot assault from an outflank, you'll be destroyed if you have to walk to the enemy, you'll have the entire weight of an opposing army's undamaged points cost on you if you infiltrate. You can't assault from any vehicle or Obyrons Deepstrike. No RC members can be attached, they can't hurt anything but AR10 vehicles. They cannot score.

1560 pts gives you 120 warriors if you want a more boots on the ground approach and that gives you far more combat effectiveness than FOs are capable of achieving.

I think everyone can agree that FO's are not the best unit in the book. But they have their uses and if people wanna run them who are we to stop them? 10 FO's vs 10 Warriors starting 12" apart don't be too surprised to see the FO's win, 3 attacks is nasty 4 on charge.

To the OP if they are still keeping up with this thread. If you wanna use FO outflanking or DS then absolutely go for it, they can be a good distraction and may just be useful sometimes. And it fits the fluff. Go for it

 Mitranekh the Omniscient wrote:
I think everyone can agree that FO's are not the best unit in the book. But they have their uses and if people wanna run them who are we to stop them? 10 FO's vs 10 Warriors starting 12" apart don't be too surprised to see the FO's win, 3 attacks is nasty 4 on charge.

To the OP if they are still keeping up with this thread. If you wanna use FO outflanking or DS then absolutely go for it, they can be a good distraction and may just be useful sometimes. And it fits the fluff. Go for it

Yea I'm still following though more with popcorn than a notebook at this point. Glad to see people are passionate about Flayed Ones but at some point it turns into beating a dead horse on the internet. Much better to do and discuss over a pint.

That said I definitely appreciate the insights and testimonies people have provided with their experiences with Flayed Ones. Outside of the back and forth, it's been decent in terms of strategy so thanks!

ShadarLogoth wrote:

 NecronLord3 wrote:
And your tactical advice still reads like a hand book of what not to do in 40k. 420 pts of Wraiths in two six man squads are far superior in EVERY way to a 400pt 10 man squad of Praetorians. This is fact.

Cute.

A.) No one only spends 420 points on 12 Wraiths. Most configurations would have at least 60 points in Whipcoils.
B.) The TPs are more resilient to a wider array of bullets. VB/PC are superior to Wraiths when assaulting vehicles, while Rod TPs are superior to Wraiths when assaulting elite infantry. So your "fact" happens to be completely false.

Thanks for the ad hominem though. It really adds to your completely inaccurate "facts" and makes your argument all the more persuasive.

I play 15 wraiths in 3 units and only 1 coil in the unit with the destro lord, that is 50 points not down the drain, i really dont care if my wraiths die or not. The tendency is that more people drop the coils.

TP are utter crap tbh, while they do have great rules the price tag and poor survivabilty in small units is way to steep to justify them.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
As I said before though, can you see the advantages of having Flayed Ones contest an enemy DZ objective over Warriors? Sure, there are some things that can take out FOs in CC, but the list of things that can take out FOs in CC is much shorter then the list of things that can take out Warriors in CC. Also, you lose nothing when GtG.

That's not really true, on both counts.

First, since Flayed Ones aren't any more durable than Warriors anything that can kill Warriors can kill Flayed Ones. The list may be a little shorter, but not by much like you seem to think. Flayed Ones have triple the close combat attacks, but nothing special about them. No Rending, no AP, nothing. There are a lot of units that can handle Flayed Ones in close combat, even a large group of them, and several of those are scoring! Specific examples you'll see often include Chaos Space Marines and Grey Hunters.

Second, you do lose something when you Go To Ground: The ability to act. You are now automatically giving up a turn of action. Awesome, you are maybe contesting an Objective that turn. But you won't be threatening anything else and you won't be getting any charges off, and the next enemy shooting phase you have to decide if you are sacrificing yet another turn of action.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
Most weapons that ignore cover still have to contend with the 4+, and even weapons that ignore both have to contend with RP. It's a big difference.

The difference between a 2+ Save and RPP and a 4+ Save and RPP is a big difference. Losing your cover safe bonus for Going To Ground means you just gave up a turn with that unit for nothing. That hurts.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
Space Wolves don't have a lot of prime contenders for things I would assault with FOs, I'll give you that. Grey Hunters are certainly doable if CA fails to go off, or they have bit whittled down a bit. TWC are straight tough. But I also have a DLord, Triarch Praetorians, and Wraiths in my list. So I've got other things for your TWC to deal with. I doubt if facing me you would send them at the FOs.

That depends entirely what's going on in the game for the most part, but no. I'm not throwing TWC into a DLord or Wraiths if I can help it (and being Cavalry...). My Wolf Guard Terminators (3) and HQ however have tied up such units for 3-5 turns before, usually 4 or 5. Flayed Ones are exactly the type of unit you'd want to hit with TWC so why would I throw TWC at a target that can chew them up, even decked out with Storm Shields?

ShadarLogoth wrote:
My point is, that is a restriction almost all CC units have. The second point just isn't as likely as you think, and to pull it off, they are dedicating tons of firepower to the task. At the end of the day, I would rather them shoot my 13 point flayed ones then my 40 point Wraiths or TPs, merely because Flayed Ones eat the bullets more efficiently.

That seems to be all they can do and, again, Warriors seem to be able to do it just as well.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
Sure, there are other options, but they have short comings that make them less desirable for my purposes. Namely, the only other unit that compares in RPP are Warriors, who don't stand a chance in most cases in CC. This makes a big difference for me.

But you aren't getting into CC with your Flayed Ones. You keep saying how you just Go To Ground when you get shot at. Plus, you can't charge on Turn 1 due to Infiltrate, can't charge out of Deep Strike, and can't charge out of Outflank. So you almost never get to charge the enemy it sounds like to me.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
How often do those templates come on units that don't have other small arms? How often do blasts ignore cover? Heavy flamers are a concern, and they are also one of the least taken weapons in the game. Even a Helldrake isn't great against them, as I mentioned above.

You have a 5+ save against a Heldrake. No, its not as painful as it is for Space Marines, but it still hurts. You'll take more wounds than if it were a Flamer, and have a worse save. You will be losing more models still. Plus Vector Strike. With regards to the rest:

- Whirlwinds are cheap and cheerful and available to every Space Marine army out there.
- Imperial Guard have Eradicators, Hellhounds, Bane Wolfs, Colossus, and Deathstrikes.
- Tau have Markerlights, Multi-spectrum Sensor Suites, and Smart Missile Systems
- CSM have Baleflamers, Blastmasters and Sonic Blasters on top of normal Flamers

All of the above either just make you straight up dead or take away your 2+ Cover Save and make you use your 4+. And that says nothing of the fact that every piece of terrain granting you cover is not going to be Area Terrain, except maybe at your home. At a tournament it definitely won't be the case. And if its not Area Terrain, then all Small/Large Blast weapons hurt you terribly, since you treat the center of the blast as the direction the shot came from.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
3+ cover save in area terrain (when GtG), always (GtG gives you +2 to cover in area terrain). 2+ if its ruins. I don't play on planet bowling ball boards, but every major tournament has area terrain.

Correct about Area Terrain and Going To Ground, but you seem to be forgetting that not all terrain is going to actually be Area Terrain, especially at a tournament. So yes its something to consider but not something that be counted on.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Anyways, I personally have not seen Flayed Ones make a credible threat. They kill a few models and die and never successfully contest an objective long enough to matter. So our anecdotal evidence cancels each other out.

Cancels each other out? I have some hundred games with Flayed Ones under my belt. Honestly, how many times have you seen them in play? I seriously doubt your anecdotal evidence pool is large. My is enough to make definitive statements with. The thing is, there isn't much to the tactic. You deploy, you get into area terrain threatening or contesting an objective. If they shoot at you. you GtG. Either they successfully take the objective or they eat bullets that could be going into less resilient units. Its basically a win-win.

Congratulations. I have nearly that many with Blood Claws under my belt, and even with more wins than losses. That doesn't make it a good choice or something I'd want to bring to a tournament or highly competitive game. I've seen Flayed Ones maybe two dozen times in 6E, if that, so you got me there.

The thing is, your tactic doesn't depend on Flayed Ones. You just seem to have an arbitrary attachment to them IMO. You have a ton of maybes going on here:

- There is an objective near terrain
- The terrain is area terrain
- The enemy's deployment allows me to start in the area terrain
- The enemy's deployment allows me to credibly threaten the objective
- I can get close enough to the objective in a single turn, even ignoring I'm moving through cover, to credibly threaten the objective

I shoot at your Flayed Ones, you Go To Ground. You now aren't charging or moving, you are pinned down. So I can shoot at you again, and again, and you are going to keep Going To Ground and just taking the hits?

I'm still trying to figure out why you'd take Flayed Ones over more Warriors. Nothing about your tactic seems to really need Flayed Ones. Again, they are equal in point cost and in resiliency to enemy shooting but Warriors can claim that objective instead of just contesting it. They both are likely to get to the objective around the same time, unless your enemy deploys foolishly. If you are just Going To Ground all the time, you obviously don't need their close combat capabilities (which are slightly worse than CSM/Grey Hunters since they are all normal attacks).

So please, convince me! Why are Flayed Ones superior to Warriors?

First, since Flayed Ones aren't any more durable than Warriors anything that can kill Warriors can kill Flayed Ones. The list may be a little shorter, but not by much like you seem to think. Flayed Ones have triple the close combat attacks, but nothing special about them. No Rending, no AP, nothing. There are a lot of units that can handle Flayed Ones in close combat, even a large group of them, and several of those are scoring! Specific examples you'll see often include Chaos Space Marines and Grey Hunters.

I've taken out both CSM and GH with Flayed Ones in CC. With superior numbers, sure, but that's not something Warriors will ever do unless they are being lead by a Phaeron and some other WS Lords, dramatically increasing the price of the unit. The point it, even basic Tacticals scare Warriors in CC. And, if you are in Terrain, any CC unit without Nades is striking last, dramatically increasing the amount of units you can take. Boys, for instance, are no threat to me when I'm in area terrain.

Second, you do lose something when you Go To Ground: The ability to act. You are now automatically giving up a turn of action. Awesome, you are maybe contesting an Objective that turn. But you won't be threatening anything else and you won't be getting any charges off, and the next enemy shooting phase you have to decide if you are sacrificing yet another turn of action.

This is all irrelevant to the mission objective. And as long as they keep shooting at you, you ARE doing something. What would you rather get shot at, 3+/RP Flayed Ones at 13 points/base or 3++ Wraiths at 35 to 45 points per base?

The difference between a 2+ Save and RPP and a 4+ Save and RPP is a big difference. Losing your cover safe bonus for Going To Ground means you just gave up a turn with that unit for nothing. That hurts.

Going to ground is a fantastic mechanic, and every tournament player knows this. I don't think I need to defend that aspect of the strategy.

That depends entirely what's going on in the game for the most part, but no. I'm not throwing TWC into a DLord or Wraiths if I can help it (and being Cavalry...). My Wolf Guard Terminators (3) and HQ however have tied up such units for 3-5 turns before, usually 4 or 5. Flayed Ones are exactly the type of unit you'd want to hit with TWC so why would I throw TWC at a target that can chew them up, even decked out with Storm Shields?

Sure, you have fast units, I have fast units. This tit for tat is rather meaningless. I feel confident I could take your SW list because I've faced its carbon copy before. We simply can't settle this by talking about it.

That seems to be all they can do and, again, Warriors seem to be able to do it just as well.

Yes, but Warriors can't CC. Look, hammer out Warriors and Flayed Ones in CC against a variety of opponents. I really shouldn't have to convince anyone of this point. Its extremely apparent by just looking at their basic profiles. The math and experience just further validates that point.

But you aren't getting into CC with your Flayed Ones. You keep saying how you just Go To Ground when you get shot at. Plus, you can't charge on Turn 1 due to Infiltrate, can't charge out of Deep Strike, and can't charge out of Outflank. So you almost never get to charge the enemy it sounds like to me.

You seem to be interpreting a very binary strategy, and that's probably my fault for how I'm describing it. You threaten with CC. If they put a unit between you and the objective (or on the objective) you kill it, with CC. If they run away and stay out of your assault range, you mosey your way onto the objective. If they position a vast amount of firepower to shoot at you, you go to ground. Action and reaction. The point I was making was, they either make it to the objective or they eat a bunch of firepower that could have gone into more expensive units. That's a win-win.

You have a 5+ save against a Heldrake. No, its not as painful as it is for Space Marines, but it still hurts. You'll take more wounds than if it were a Flamer, and have a worse save. You will be losing more models still. Plus Vector Strike. With regards to the rest:

A 5+ save on a 13 point model against a Helldrake is quite significant. If all a Helldrake does all game is try to kill Flayed Ones, I've effectively taken the Helldrake out of the game. And, in regards to the Flamer, they DON'T have a worse save. A 4+ AND RP is exactly the same mathematically as a 3+. If the Flayed Ones have a Res Orb, they are more resilient in this case.

- Whirlwinds are cheap and cheerful and available to every Space Marine army out there.
- Imperial Guard have Eradicators, Hellhounds, Bane Wolfs, Colossus, and Deathstrikes.
- Tau have Markerlights, Multi-spectrum Sensor Suites, and Smart Missile Systems
- CSM have Baleflamers, Blastmasters and Sonic Blasters on top of normal Flamers

Yes I'm well aware of all the normal cover save ignoring mechanics in the game. I'm not sure what the point of this is.

All of the above either just make you straight up dead or take away your 2+ Cover Save and make you use your 4+.

Oh that was the point? Yeah, that's simply not true. You always get RP, and usually get the 4+ against most of the things you just mentioned. IE, you are equal to or superior to a MEq in all of those cases. Do those weapons "straight up" make MEq dead?

And that says nothing of the fact that every piece of terrain granting you cover is not going to be Area Terrain, except maybe at your home. At a tournament it definitely won't be the case. And if its not Area Terrain, then all Small/Large Blast weapons hurt you terribly, since you treat the center of the blast as the direction the shot came from.

Nova? Adepticon? Every major tournament has at least one piece of area terrain in each quarter. I think your local meta is effecting your perception here.

Correct about Area Terrain and Going To Ground, but you seem to be forgetting that not all terrain is going to actually be Area Terrain, especially at a tournament. So yes its something to consider but not something that be counted on.

I'm not forgetting anything. I'm speaking from experience. Any tournament worth its salt has extensive area terrain.

The thing is, your tactic doesn't depend on Flayed Ones. You just seem to have an arbitrary attachment to them IMO. You have a ton of maybes going on here:

- There is an objective near terrain
- The terrain is area terrain
- The enemy's deployment allows me to start in the area terrain
- The enemy's deployment allows me to credibly threaten the objective
- I can get close enough to the objective in a single turn, even ignoring I'm moving through cover, to credibly threaten the objective

Area terrain being next to objectives is extremely prolific in this game. You may play on planet bowling ball at your local store, but that's not a very good indication of how most major tournaments are run.

However, my tactic doesn't rely on any of that. Its just regularly occurring events I can take advantage of. If there are no objectives on the flanks or peripheries of the opponents formation, which is incredibly rare, I simply hunt heavy weapons squads, or in the case of VP, try to kill a unit and then make them as hard to kill as possible.

I shoot at your Flayed Ones, you Go To Ground. You now aren't charging or moving, you are pinned down. So I can shoot at you again, and again, and you are going to keep Going To Ground and just taking the hits?

If you keep shooting at them? Hell yeah I am. While you are wasting your time trying to kill 20 3++/RP models, my Wraiths/DLord/TPs are making short work of the rest of your army.

I'm still trying to figure out why you'd take Flayed Ones over more Warriors.

The flexible deployment (built in, requiring no additional points spent) and the dramatically different CC abilities.

Nothing about your tactic seems to really need Flayed Ones.

Except for the flexible deployment and the dramatically different CC abilities?

Again, they are equal in point cost and in resiliency to enemy shooting but Warriors can claim that objective instead of just contesting it.

Irrelevant. A single contested objective will win you the game in most cases, assuming you can hold onto your own.

They both are likely to get to the objective around the same time, unless your enemy deploys foolishly.

That's not even remotely true, and simply portrays your lack of experience with this idea.

If you are just Going To Ground all the time, you obviously don't need their close combat capabilities (which are slightly worse than CSM/Grey Hunters since they are all normal attacks).

Uh...They will still come in handy even they get assaulted, and they are still a threat of CC prior to going to ground. Action and reaction. Action...and reaction.

Also, last time I checked, CSM and Grey Hunters just rely on normal attacks to, for the most part. And they have less of them. And Grey Hunters are reliant on Counter Attack (which fails 30% of the time) and a once per game banner to have a chance against Flayed Ones. Take away the banner and CA, and Flayed Ones mow right over them.

So please, convince me! Why are Flayed Ones superior to Warriors?

I've said it a million times. Flayed Ones are vastly superior to Warriors in CC, and have much more flexible deployment options. Its up to you to prove me wrong here. Show me how Flayed Ones will fold just as easily to Warriors in CC. Show me how your are going to get Warriors onto an opponents objective without spending 100 to 115 additional points. Please.

1.
One thing you seem to be doing is comparing Flayed Ones to Canoptek Wraiths, and you seem to be doing this the wrong way. Flayed Ones are 13 points a model, and Wraiths are 35 points a model. That's how far you go. The problem with this is that you are sometimes saying Flayed Ones are more durable, point for point, or other times you seem to be saying that you'd rather have the Flayed Ones be shot at because they are cheaper than the Wraiths.

Your analysis is deeply flawed however. You are comparing models, not wounds and you are ignoring their Armor Save.

Wraiths have two wounds each. So price per wound is 17.5 points, not 35 points. So we have 4.5 points in difference per model, or 2.25 points per wound. Their armor save is 17% better than that of the Flayed Ones. That's 7.56% more durability per point difference. They are missing Reanimation Protocol however, which hurts a bit.

But wait, Wraith are also better than Flayed Ones in close combat! They are Fearless, Strength 6, have a 3++ Save, and most importantly have Rending. They also have other options to increase their capabilities further in close combat (Whip Coils being favorite).

6 Wraith (12 wounds) have a base cost of 210 points. 16 Flayed Ones (16 wounds) cost 208 points. At first glance, Flayed Ones are more durable. But its not the case:
Even assuming you have a cover save, and that the weapon hitting you doesn't Ignore Cover, Wraiths are more resistant to enemy shooting than the same points worth of Flayed Ones unless the Flayed Ones are Going To Ground. Furthermore, Wraiths are far more durable in close combat to enemy attacks thanks to their 3++ Save. Point for point.

To me, Flayed Ones don't do anything that Canoptek Wraiths don't do better. The only one thing is that they can take a 20 wound unit (albeit for 260 points) that is slow to move around and vulnerable to shooting (if you spread out so Blasts and Templates have minimal effect, you likely aren't going to be able to fit the unit entirely in Area Terrain, which means they can be Focus Fired. No matter what you do, something is going to do well shooting you).

Wraiths are Jump Infantry that always ignore Difficult Terrain and Dangerous Terrain. They are far more capable of maneuvering to threaten an objective or enemy unit, and they are at least potentially capable of assaulting on the first turn. They can also act, and are never less durable depending on circumstances. All of this makes them more reliable and consistent, which is why they are the more competitive choice.

Sure, they are in different slots. But there is no reason not to take Wraith, and if you take Wraith there doesn't seem to be any real reason to take Flayed Ones. They have the same roles, and the Wraith are capable of filling other roles as well! Ignoring close combat, there doesn't seem to be any point to taking Flayed Ones over more Warriors either.

So other than for "fluffy" reasons, why would you actually want to take Flayed Ones? In what army list do they actually have a clear purpose and role? A purpose and role that isn't better served, point for point, by a different unit?

2.

ShadarLogoth wrote:You seem to be interpreting a very binary strategy, and that's probably my fault for how I'm describing it. You threaten with CC. If they put a unit between you and the objective (or on the objective) you kill it, with CC. If they run away and stay out of your assault range, you mosey your way onto the objective. If they position a vast amount of firepower to shoot at you, you go to ground. Action and reaction. The point I was making was, they either make it to the objective or they eat a bunch of firepower that could have gone into more expensive units. That's a win-win.

A) Flayed Ones have a 8"-18" threat range. On average its only an 11" threat range.
B) Flayed Ones have an average movement of 9" when Running.
C) Flayed Ones have to be 18" away from the enemy on Turn 1.
D) Flayed Ones are effected by Difficult Terrain.
E) Flayed Ones are slightly less durable than MEQ. Statistically, you are likely to have killed as many models due to RP but Flayed Ones and Necron Warrior units are more likely to have to take a Morale test than MEQ since RP happens after such tests.

It doesn't take a vast amount of firepower to really hurt MEQ. It definitely won't to hurt Flayed Ones. Going To Ground is only good if you are already contesting an objective, otherwise your unit is useless. Once you Go To Ground I can stop shooting at you and focus on other units and I won't have to worry about you for a whole other turn.

So Flayed Ones are a one trick pony? So far the only thing the seem to be able to do is Go To Ground on an objective, and other units can do that if that is what is going to win you the game. Why spend the not-inconsiderable points on them over a different unit when any unit can do that? Infiltrating alone is not good enough.

3.
Rebuttals to your rebuttals of my rebuttals (woo!) that are probably too long to bother reading:

Can any other unit in the 40k universe accurately reenact Michael Jackson's Thriller video better than a 20-man squad of Flayed Ones led in a synchronized dance by a vinyl red jacket wearing jerry-curl wigged Overlord?

Your argument is invalid.

 Badablack wrote:
Can any other unit in the 40k universe accurately reenact Michael Jackson's Thriller video better than a 20-man squad of Flayed Ones led in a synchronized dance by a vinyl red jacket wearing jerry-curl wigged Overlord?

Your argument is invalid.

That depends on your conversion skill, and the base model or green stuff skill. I'm sure someone could make a bunch of space marines moonwalk into assault or something, I'm also sure that person won't be me.

Your analysis starts with the assumption that Wraiths never have Whipcoils. That simply isn't the case. And it effects their RPP values.

Furthermore, you ignore mechanics like cover saves, which are ubiquitous, night fighting, which is easy to get as Necron player, and going to ground, which any good general will do if the opponent is setting up in good position to shoot them. You also ignore the fact that S8+ weapons double up on Wraiths, making them VASTLY inferior in RPP. And its not even close.

Then you break it down per wound, but per wound is irrelevant. Break it down per point spent (you did mention the Wraiths spend 4.5 more points per wound, but you kind of glossed over the fact).

Once you factor in all the things that regularly occur in games, Flayed Ones are simply much more resilient per point spent then Wraiths. If you are unfamiliar how RPP works, I can probably find you some articles describing it.

Here, let me break it down for you to highlight the flaws. I'm not doing this to be a jerk, I truly appreciate the interest you have taken in the topic, but its important that we are on the same page here.

Even assuming you have a cover save, and that the weapon hitting you doesn't Ignore Cover, Wraiths are more resistant to enemy shooting than the same points worth of Flayed Ones unless the Flayed Ones are Going To Ground. Furthermore, Wraiths are far more durable in close combat to enemy attacks thanks to their 3++ Save. Point for point.

Simply not true. Please see above.

To me, Flayed Ones don't do anything that Canoptek Wraiths don't do better. The only one thing is that they can take a 20 wound unit (albeit for 260 points) that is slow to move around and vulnerable to shooting (if you spread out so Blasts and Templates have minimal effect, you likely aren't going to be able to fit the unit entirely in Area Terrain, which means they can be Focus Fired. No matter what you do, something is going to do well shooting you).

They are more resilient. Redo the math. Base on per point, not per wound. Factor in the S8+. Factor in cover, GtG, Night Fighting. Basically, the Flayed Ones start in a superior position, and can magnify that superior position in a variety of regularly occurring ways. Oh yeah, and I haven't even mentioned Res Orbs.

Sure, they are in different slots. But there is no reason not to take Wraith, and if you take Wraith there doesn't seem to be any real reason to take Flayed Ones. They have the same roles, and the Wraith are capable of filling other roles as well! Ignoring close combat, there doesn't seem to be any point to taking Flayed Ones over more Warriors either.

They don't perform the same roles at all. This is the biggest mistake people make when comparing the two. Flayed Ones camp and contest enemy objectives. I would very rarely use Wraiths in that capacity, quite simply because they are inferior to Flayed Ones in that role. They cannot GtG, or get Res Orbs, or benefit from Night Fighting. It's MUCH easier to dislodge 6 Wraiths on and objective via shooting then it is 20 Flayed Ones (who are generally more expensive, but Wraith can't take more, another limitation to their mechanics).

So other than for "fluffy" reasons, why would you actually want to take Flayed Ones? In what army list do they actually have a clear purpose and role? A purpose and role that isn't better served, point for point, by a different unit?

Because they are the superior choice. Look at everything with an open mind and really analyze all the factors, and if your are being intellectually honest you should be able to see that.

A) Flayed Ones have a 8"-18" threat range. On average its only an 11" threat range.
B) Flayed Ones have an average movement of 9" when Running.
C) Flayed Ones have to be 18" away from the enemy on Turn 1.
D) Flayed Ones are effected by Difficult Terrain.
E) Flayed Ones are slightly less durable than MEQ. Statistically, you are likely to have killed as many models due to RP but Flayed Ones and Necron Warrior units are more likely to have to take a Morale test than MEQ since RP happens after such tests.

MEq has Leadership 8 or 9, versus Leadership 10, so that's really not true. Also, again, for the millionth time, once you start factoring in the large and ever present ways Flayed Ones have at their disposal to increase their resiliency, that are completely superior to MEq. They are also cheaper, by a large margin in many cases.

Also, you seem to assume they are Infiltrating? Its just one of the three options. They also have Outflank and Deep Strike, which can be further amplified by Imotehk. (You might see a running trend here, Imotehk does a lot to amplify Flayed Ones viability).

Going To Ground is only good if you are already contesting an objective, otherwise your unit is useless.

That's simply not true. Stay alive to be able to contest the objective turn 5+. Going to ground within the same neighborhood of the objective is completely conducive to this goal.

So Flayed Ones are a one trick pony? So far the only thing the seem to be able to do is Go To Ground on an objective, and other units can do that if that is what is going to win you the game. Why spend the not-inconsiderable points on them over a different unit when any unit can do that? Infiltrating alone is not good enough.

A.) If your "one trick" is performing a vital task in the vast majority of competitive scenarios, its a pretty good "trick". B.) Because ANY unit cannot also use CC to clear the objective (some can, like Wraiths, but then you are utilizing them correctly staying there). They (assuming Warriors) also aren't any threat at all to defend the objective with CC. You seem to forget that GtG doesn't really cost the Flayed Ones anything when defending against an assault, in most cases.

Rebuttal, Rebuttal, Rebuttal, Rebuttal time .

 NecronLord3 wrote:

You cannot assault from an outflank, you'll be destroyed if you have to walk to the enemy, you'll have the entire weight of an opposing army's undamaged points cost on you if you infiltrate. You can't assault from any vehicle or Obyrons Deepstrike. No RC members can be attached, they can't hurt anything but AR10 vehicles. They cannot score.

1560 pts gives you 120 warriors if you want a more boots on the ground approach and that gives you far more combat effectiveness than FOs are capable of achieving.

Well you're almost right. In fact, what will happen si the enemy will try. And maybe succeed. And it wont matter because the actual main parts of the army will then have the freedom to do their thinig,. No such thing as a game of Warhammer in a vacuum. I'd rather the enemy try to move close enough to double tap and get caught by my second unit than have no choice in the matter.

I cannot tell you that the path to victory will be clear, no matter what you do. What I can say is that those of us who use infiltrating and outflanking units to a heavy extent have learned the value of the half court press. It just takes creativity and a plan, like everything else. Good luck!

 Jancoran wrote:

 NecronLord3 wrote:

You cannot assault from an outflank, you'll be destroyed if you have to walk to the enemy, you'll have the entire weight of an opposing army's undamaged points cost on you if you infiltrate. You can't assault from any vehicle or Obyrons Deepstrike. No RC members can be attached, they can't hurt anything but AR10 vehicles. They cannot score.

1560 pts gives you 120 warriors if you want a more boots on the ground approach and that gives you far more combat effectiveness than FOs are capable of achieving.

Well you're almost right. In fact, what will happen si the enemy will try. And maybe succeed. And it wont matter because the actual main parts of the army will then have the freedom to do their thinig,. No such thing as a game of Warhammer in a vacuum. I'd rather the enemy try to move close enough to double tap and get caught by my second unit than have no choice in the matter.

I cannot tell you that the path to victory will be clear, no matter what you do. What I can say is that those of us who use infiltrating and outflanking units to a heavy extent have learned the value of the half court press. It just takes creativity and a plan, like everything else. Good luck!

Yes I totally agree with your tactic in reference to "in a vacuum". However I was specifically making a reference to the Tau. They need only to wound 20 times if you bring the largest squad of Flaued Ones possible, and that really is not much considering they will get at least Two rounds of shooting to pull it off. Tau can also ignore the squad and wait for you to assault and then they can pull out their overwatch special rules to throw a ton of free shots on the FOs. If you do this as early as you suggest, there won't even be other targets the Tau will have to choose to OW against. The only viable tactic I see FO accomplishing is a late game outflank when the enemy is threatened by multiple units. However it would take allot of luck as you need the right board edge to deploy from and the luck that they don't arrive on turn 2. But this is really something that 10 immortals or 15 warriors in a Night scythe can really do better for a little more points and you get an additional flyer or the option to attach RC members.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
Your analysis starts with the assumption that Wraiths never have Whipcoils. That simply isn't the case. And it effects their RPP values.

Not every Wraith in a unit will have Whip Coils. The two Necron players down here I normally play against both tend to take 1-2 per 5 Wraith and they use the 'naked' Wraith to take the hits first. So you are looking at an increased point cost per wound of 4-5 if you factor them in usually.

More importantly however, that's not how you compare units. You have to consider what the upgrade is offering you in your analysis. Your argument would be like comparing 10 Grey Hunters with 2 Flamers to 10 Grey Hunters with 2 Plasma Guns and saying that the Flamer unit is the better unit by RPP and thus taking the Plasma Gun unit is a waste. That doesn't consider all the angles.

When comparing units resilience per point you take the base unit, as that lets you see how tough the selection is per model and for the unit for the initial cost of taking the unit.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
Furthermore, you ignore mechanics like cover saves, which are ubiquitous, night fighting, which is easy to get as Necron player, and going to ground, which any good general will do if the opponent is setting up in good position to shoot them. You also ignore the fact that S8+ weapons double up on Wraiths, making them VASTLY inferior in RPP. And its not even close.

When analyzing a unit you have to start with the basics. That would be the unit in Open Terrain. Its a very realistic possibility you will be in Open Terrain (are you forgetting that Focus Fire means that any model not in the Area Terrain doesn't get a cover save?) and if you are in close combat you will effectively be in Open Terrain when it comes to taking hits. This is especially true when comparing a unit to another unit, as in most cases both units can benefit from Cover Saves. I'll grant you this is less of the case with Wraith.

And you are correct, I did not analyze the resilience of the units on a per wound basis versus S8+ weapons. Possibly short sighted of me, as I keep analyzing things using Space Wolves as my MEQ since I'm most familiar with them of all my armies. SW tend to have fewer S8+ weapons than most, outside of Long Fangs. And since they double as the sole ranged anti-tank, and most Necron lists I come across tend to run 2-3 Annihilation Barges plus a few Nightscythes, I didn't bother to run the numbers for that.

Instant Death is definitely an effect to worry about, but you need to keep in mind that there won't be a large volume of S8+ weapons usually. A Long Fang Pack with 5 Missile Launchers,
a fairly common unit to face, is only causing 0.93 unsaved wounds. That means, with Instant Death factored in, a Long Fang Pack has a 93% chance of killing one Wraith.

Outside of Cover (either because you aren't in cover or are getting Focus Fired) that same Long Fang Pack is causing 2.78 unsaved wounds to the Flayed Ones (1.85 after RP is factored in). With a 5+ Cover Save its 1.85/1.24, with a 4+ its 1.39/0.93, with a 3+ its 0.93/0.62 and with a 2+ get 0.46/0.31

Considering the size of the units, how much this "hurts" is surprisingly close outside of Cover. 13%-19% of the unit dying (Flayed Ones) versus 17% of the unit (Wraith) when going with my original examples getting shot by 5 BS 4 Krak Missiles.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
Then you break it down per wound, but per wound is irrelevant. Break it down per point spent (you did mention the Wraiths spend 4.5 more points per wound, but you kind of glossed over the fact).

Point in fact, I didn't gloss over it. I merely pointed out that there is more to unit analysis than resiliency per point, and highlighted some (but not all) of the Other Stuff you get for those extra points per wound. Frankly, you are the one glossing over things if you ignore what you get for the extra 4.5 points per wound: Increased Strength, Fearless, Rending, a 3++ Save (Open Terrain or in Close Combat this becomes important), Jump Infantry... And that says nothing of having options available to enhance your abilities further. That's an awful lot crammed into those 4.5 points per wound.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
Math looks right, but wait, why did you bother making both units the same points but then only kill 20 Bolters worth?

I'm confused by the question. I made the units roughly the same points to compare what would happen if you spent the same amount of points on both options (and before you start, that's not ignoring the fact I can take 4 more wounds in the Flayed One unit from my analysis). What's wrong with running the numbers for 10 Boltguns being fired at the units, given they are likely to encounter a time where this is what happens?

ShadarLogoth wrote:
After that salvo, the Wraiths have lost a little over 1/6th of their starting strength, while the Flayed Ones have lost a little over 1/8th.

Wraith are down 17% and the Flayed Ones are down 13%, yes. The Flayed Ones also one unsaved wound away from having to take a Morale Test. Granted, only 9% chance to fail, but you can't just ignore it.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
The plasma wounds then ignore cover, which is a scenario that quite simply almost never occurs. I run my Flayed Ones with Imotehk, so for the first 3 or 4 turns they have at least a 4+ cover save, 2+ if they GtG in any area terrain. Factor that in and the disparity increases dramatically.

Tau have Night Vision available on the cheap or free with many units. Searchlights are available for free or cheap on many vehicles for most other armies. So you might not be benefiting from Night Fighting. Furthermore, stick a Wraith unit in Area Terrain and while it can't Go To Ground it can definitely get a 2+ Cover Save if its far enough away.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Even assuming you have a cover save, and that the weapon hitting you doesn't Ignore Cover, Wraiths are more resistant to enemy shooting than the same points worth of Flayed Ones unless the Flayed Ones are Going To Ground. Furthermore, Wraiths are far more durable in close combat to enemy attacks thanks to their 3++ Save. Point for point.

Simply not true. Please see above.

Which part was untrue? It all looks true to me. Flayed Ones are more resilient when they Go To Ground and get a 3+/2+ Cover Save. Wraith are more resilient in the Open and in Close Combat.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

To me, Flayed Ones don't do anything that Canoptek Wraiths don't do better. The only one thing is that they can take a 20 wound unit (albeit for 260 points) that is slow to move around and vulnerable to shooting (if you spread out so Blasts and Templates have minimal effect, you likely aren't going to be able to fit the unit entirely in Area Terrain, which means they can be Focus Fired. No matter what you do, something is going to do well shooting you).

They are more resilient. Redo the math. Base on per point, not per wound. Factor in the S8+. Factor in cover, GtG, Night Fighting. Basically, the Flayed Ones start in a superior position, and can magnify that superior position in a variety of regularly occurring ways. Oh yeah, and I haven't even mentioned Res Orbs.

1. Why would you ignore how resilient a unit is per wound? You have to take that into consideration as well as the price per wound. So in your opinion Chaos Cultists are vastly more resilient compared to Chaos Space Marines? You may not realize it, but that's what you are saying.

2. As above, I factored in the S8. We're maybe losing 1 Wraith and we're losing 1-3 Flayed Ones if we have 5 BS 4 Krak Missiles coming at us. Probably only 1 dead Flayed One after Reanimation Protocol. Good to know "in a vacuum" information.

3. Going To Ground, again, has its own drawbacks and is not a perfect solution and there is a reason Focus Fire (BRB page 18-19) and Template weapons exists. Don't assume you'll have a Cover Save. You just won't every time.

4. Night Fighting, also again, isn't a guaranteed source of protection. There are abundantly available ways to negate the Cover Save bonuses from Night Fighting while its going on, and things still can take away or ignore Cover Saves.

5. No, you haven't mentioned Res Orbs. That increases the effective point cost of the unit when calculating RPP. It requires the taking of an Independent Character and eating up an HQ slot (one of which you apparently usually have filled with Imotekh). You are looking at a minimum of 120 or 125 points to give Flayed Ones a Resurrection Orb. A Royal Court can't split off to join Flayed Ones.

For a unit of 20 Flayed Ones, that's an increased cost of 6 points per model, more for smaller units, and more if you take anything else on the Lord. The Lord cannot set up with them on Turn 1 due to Infiltrate as well.

After factoring in the increased point cost and opportunity costs, the slight bump to resiliency you gain suddenly seems a lot less attractive to me when comparing to Wraith.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Sure, they are in different slots. But there is no reason not to take Wraith, and if you take Wraith there doesn't seem to be any real reason to take Flayed Ones. They have the same roles, and the Wraith are capable of filling other roles as well! Ignoring close combat, there doesn't seem to be any point to taking Flayed Ones over more Warriors either.

They don't perform the same roles at all. This is the biggest mistake people make when comparing the two. Flayed Ones camp and contest enemy objectives. I would very rarely use Wraiths in that capacity, quite simply because they are inferior to Flayed Ones in that role. They cannot GtG, or get Res Orbs, or benefit from Night Fighting. It's MUCH easier to dislodge 6 Wraiths on and objective via shooting then it is 20 Flayed Ones (who are generally more expensive, but Wraith can't take more, another limitation to their mechanics).

So Flayed Ones have only one purpose: camp and contest an objective. They're incapable of doing anything else? More reason not to take them in my book then, given the Codex is full of units that can do that. That goes in circles back to where I started questioning what you were saying, why wouldn't I just use Warriors to do this so I could claim the 3 VP instead of just denying it?

Also, why can't Wraith benefit from Night Fighting? Stick them in Area Terrain and they still get a 2+ Save...

ShadarLogoth wrote:
[Flayed Ones] are the superior choice. Look at everything with an open mind and really analyze all the factors, and if your are being intellectually honest you should be able to see that.

I'm definitely approaching this with an open mind. I prefer using the underdog units, or units that the general opinion is negative and doing well with them. At the same time though, there are just choices in this game that never really make sense and the more we argue here the more I'm just having the negative notions of Flayed Ones reinforced. Maybe there is a reason you don't see them at tournaments usually.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

A) Flayed Ones have a 8"-18" threat range. On average its only an 11" threat range.
B) Flayed Ones have an average movement of 9" when Running.
C) Flayed Ones have to be 18" away from the enemy on Turn 1.
D) Flayed Ones are effected by Difficult Terrain.
E) Flayed Ones are slightly less durable than MEQ. Statistically, you are likely to have killed as many models due to RP but Flayed Ones and Necron Warrior units are more likely to have to take a Morale test than MEQ since RP happens after such tests.

MEq has Leadership 8 or 9, versus Leadership 10, so that's really not true. Also, again, for the millionth time, once you start factoring in the large and ever present ways Flayed Ones have at their disposal to increase their resiliency, that are completely superior to MEq. They are also cheaper, by a large margin in many cases.

What does the MEQ Leadership value make not true? The only thing related to Ld value I mentioned is that Flayed Ones/Warriors are slightly less durable than MEQ (4+ save vs 3+; they both benefit from cover equally) and that they'd have to take Morale Tests more often, which is true on both counts. Also, with Night Fighting in effect, MEQ benefit from it just as much as Flayed Ones do if you are comparing their resiliency... And they are only 2-3 points cheaper than MEQ, so I don't see that as a "large margin".

But really, that was a comparison of Flayed Ones vs Wraith. A-D are all unaddressed I note.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
Also, you seem to assume they are Infiltrating? Its just one of the three options. They also have Outflank and Deep Strike, which can be further amplified by Imotehk. (You might see a running trend here, Imotehk does a lot to amplify Flayed Ones viability).

Imotekh does a lot to amplify all your forces, not just Flayed Ones. Since its an equal bump I'm failing to see how he makes Flayed Ones better than alternatives. They'd have to be better than the alternatives to begin with to be better with Imotekh.

You are either Infiltrating, Outflanking, or Deep Striking. I've been consistent in saying that. Comments made by you earlier seemed to be negative of Outflanking and Deep Strike, and frankly Infiltrating is the most reliable way to get them anywhere.

If you Deep Strike with a 20 man unit, you are very susceptible to Deep Strike mishaps and you are bunched up perfectly to get hit by Blast and Template weapons. All they can do is Run and Go to Ground when they arrive, and the best cover save you are going to have is likely to be a 6+ from Going to Ground (you mishap if you land in terrain).

If you Outflank it depends entirely on where objectives were placed to be a threat. You show up, its a toss up if you have cover (which will limit how far in you can move) and all you can do is Run and Go to Ground. You probably won't want to Go to Ground since you shouldn't be close enough to contest an Objective without a turn of movement. The plus side is the enemy only has 2-3 turns to deal with the unit instead of 5.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Going To Ground is only good if you are already contesting an objective, otherwise your unit is useless.

That's simply not true. Stay alive to be able to contest the objective turn 5+. Going to ground within the same neighborhood of the objective is completely conducive to this goal.

But you have to get into the neighborhood. 6" + D6" of movement, and its a 3" buffer around the objective. So on average you need to be within 12" of the Objective. Or worse, you have to move through difficult terrain and its 2D6" (pick the highest) + D6" of movement, so you need to be within 9" of the Objective.

You aren't going to start out that close to an enemy objective most of the time, there will be at least a turn of movement where you can't Go to Ground. Be it early on, or later on.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

So Flayed Ones are a one trick pony? So far the only thing the seem to be able to do is Go To Ground on an objective, and other units can do that if that is what is going to win you the game. Why spend the not-inconsiderable points on them over a different unit when any unit can do that? Infiltrating alone is not good enough.

A.) If your "one trick" is performing a vital task in the vast majority of competitive scenarios, its a pretty good "trick". B.) Because ANY unit cannot also use CC to clear the objective (some can, like Wraiths, but then you are utilizing them correctly staying there). They (assuming Warriors) also aren't any threat at all to defend the objective with CC. You seem to forget that GtG doesn't really cost the Flayed Ones anything when defending against an assault, in most cases.

A) Contesting objectives is vital to the game, but there are other units that can do it nearly as well and still others that can do it just as well and all of the alternatives also bring other options to the table. If your unit can only do one thing its easier to negate it. As I mentioned previously, the only time Flayed Ones contesting an objective becomes immediately pressing is when you have an even number of Objectives. If you have an odd number, there are other units you have that must be claiming objectives, so why wouldn't I just go take them away from you and let your non-scoring unit "keep" whatever objective they went for?

B) Flayed Ones aren't clearing much of anything with an assault most of the time though. And its not enough to be engaged with an enemy unit to have them not claim the objective, they just need a model within 3" of it at the end of the game. You have no grenades, so you are hitting at Initiative 1 if the Objective is near cover (as you like to say it will usually be), more and more units are bringing defensive grenades, and not all your models will be contributing attacks (particularly if you are spread out so as to not get owned by Blast and Template weapons).

And again, for them to do the clearing out that means they can't have Gone To Ground!

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Any unit that is actually good at close combat can beat them handily.

Simply not true. TH/SS Termies, or really any I1 Termies. Guard blobs (which I think most people would admit are quite respectable in CC). Those are just two prominent examples of units that are above mediocre in CC that Flayed Ones can quite easily take.

If you are assaulting, you are likely assaulting through cover and are Initiative 1. But we'll assume you get your Initiative 2.

TH/SS TDA:

IG Blob:
So looking at the numbers, I wouldn't call either of your examples "mediocre". I wouldn't say you can "easily" take them. You'd have to have quite a lot of luck on your side to come out on top.

Shoot, Flayed Ones are iffy about coming on top with my favorite troop unit:
So the examples you gave are going to rock Flayed Ones most of the time, and very basic Grey Hunter pack is what will have "mediocre" performance. Many Grey Hunter packs will bring at least one Power Weapon on top of the Grey Hunter (in the form of the attached Wolf Guard), which will typically tip the balance into the Grey Hunter's favor.

Truly, the lack of special close combat attacks is very much hurting the potential of the Flayed ones.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

That makes close combat a bad choice IMO. If your second best close combat unit (compared to other units in your Codex) doesn't have a better than 50% chance of winning against mediocre close combat units, you have a problem.

Where did this come from? This an assertion without any facts backing it up.

The facts have been sprinkled around in my replies. What units of yours are anywhere near what could be called effective in close combat, other than your Lords? Wraith, Flayed Ones, Lychguard. Honestly, I'd say Lychguard are your second best unit looking at it again. Those aforementioned Grey Hunters are taking down only 1-2 on the charge, while 3 Lychguard are likely killing 2-3 Grey hunters. Lychguard are superior against your typical unit, while combat specialists will actually have a harder time with Wraith.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
Going to ground in Area Terrain is a 3+, a 2+ if you have Stealth from Night Fighting.

Its an extremely strong argument. In fact, it is the very basis of why Flayed Ones are good at what they do. Your inability to see that is clouding your judgement.

No, I just know that you won't always get a 3+/2+ cover save.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

You are missing my point: anyone bringing up how Flayed Ones take getting shot at in this thread is treated with you saying "Just Go To Ground". You are arguing things in a vacuum.

No, I'm arguing things from experience.

Which would be what is called "anecdotal evidence" which is a fallacy.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

At some point, at some time, you will have to deal with the fact you aren't Going To Ground in order to do something. And that effects how durable the Flayed Ones will be a lot worse than your favorite counter example, the Wraith.

I...don't even know what you are implying here. They are more resilient then Wraiths prior to going to ground, GtG just dramatically increase that disparity.

Apparently showing you the math, which you yourself said looked correct, isn't enough to show you that you are mistaken here. Or its going in one ear and out the other without actually being processed.

The example I gave before shows that 20 Bolters are taking out the same number of wounds (2.22) to Wraith and Flayed Ones. In fact, the Flayed Ones only take 2.22 wounds on account of Reanimation Protocol. They technically take more unsaved wounds. That same example also shows that once you get AP 4 weapons factored in, the Flayed Ones start suffering more wounds than the Wraith. And furthermore, as I showed earlier in this post, if you consider S8+ weapons (which are generally limited of number and have to deal with other targets like vehicles as well) it takes ~5 of them to kill 1 Wraith, while ~5 of them can kill 1-3 Flayed Ones, though likely only 1 is staying dead thanks to RP.

And that's all if we're in Open Terrain. Flayed Ones are not any more resilient than Wraith without Cover Saves and Going To Ground. That's just the hard numbers. So your statement is patently false.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Again, because you only care about defending your point as if it has no drawbacks you are missing my point entirely. I'm not trying to "settle" anything. I'm responding to comments you made that are tactically unsound. You don't throw TWC at certain units, because the TWC unit is expensive and has a small number of wounds.

No, you were bringing a random unit into the argument that completely ignores the context of the list the Flayed Ones are in, which very well might have a good solution for that unit. It's a bit of a strawman tactic. My argument doesn't rely on the Flayed Ones being able to take TWC, so the fact that they can't (reliably), is largely irrelevant.

How is it a starwman tactic? Look, there are two ways to analyse units here: In a vacuum, and considering what they are likely to run into. TWC are a popular unit in competitive Space Wolves lists. Flayed Ones are the perfect unit to throw them into. Wraith, particularly a unit of Wraith lead by a DLord like in your example are exactly the kind of unit you don't want to send TWC into.

Again, those comments were responding to you and this statement you made:

ShadarLogoth wrote:
But I also have a DLord, Triarch Praetorians, and Wraiths in my list. So I've got other things for your TWC to deal with. I doubt if facing me you would send them at the FOs

So you, yourself appear to know that you can't look at these units only in a vacuum. You have to ask yourself, what is the enemy likely to throw at me?

Nothing I said distracted from the argument. Flayed Ones are vulnerable to a large volume of attacks striking at Initiative 3 or higher. Particularly if a portion of those are Power Weapon attacks. You Going To Ground will not save you there, but having a 3++ might have.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
The threat of CC is all they need. Now, sometimes they do get into CC, and they are so damn resilient they often win with minimal casualties. But, they always have the threat of CC. No matter how you wish to deal with them, you will always have to respect that threat. This is the biggest problem people have with CC in this edition. They think that their CC units must be in close combat every single turn to be effective. Its flawed thinking. CC just being a threat helps you control the board. Controlling the board is how you win games.

True, but if my basic troops have a decent chance of coming out of a scrap victorious, let alone my heavy hitters, its not much of a threat. Maybe I'm doing the math wrong, though you yourself say I'm not. Care to show me the math that has you so convinced? Or is this all coming from experience, anecdotal evidence? If its the latter, then I may as well stop talking. I don't know you so your credibility is questionable, and I don't know the circumstances so luck/chance could be a massive factor in why you think what you do. Myself? I'm skeptical. I want to see the numbers showing its a favorable option in close combat against what you are most likely to face off against.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Uh, you're a little wrong here. They DO have a worse save. Going To Ground doesn't take your RP. A 4+ and RP is < 3+ and RP. Also, you are overlooking things with the Heldrake. You only get the 5+ RP "save" after you take your leadership test. It is possible to break the Flayed Ones with the Heldrake.

MEq have RP? I was comparing Flayed Ones to MEq...actually, you were comparing Flayed Ones to MEq. A 4+ AND RP (Flayed Ones) is equal to a 3+ (MEq). With the Helldrake, you are assuming it does enough casualties to actually force a moral check, and then, again, Leadership 10. So....I don't what else to say...about that /forest-gump .

Was wondering when the name calling would begin.

A 4+ Save and 5+ Reanimation Protocol is equivalent to a 3+ Save against all things AP 5 or worse, yes. Its worse against AP 4, and better against AP 3. But that's beside the point entirely.

The point that you miraculously missed, is that the Heldrake doesn't care if you Go To Ground which, in the context of what I was replying to in the above quoted, is vital information. You were saying that Heldrakes are worthless against your Flayed Ones and that shooting them is a waste of time. You are 100% in the wrong on that count. Between Vector Strike and the Baleflamer, the Heldrake will be more efficient at killing your Gone to Ground Flayed Ones than most anything else the Chaos Player has available to him outside of close combat.

So your argument that I was replying to there is laughably wrong.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

The point is you cannot rely on Going To Ground to give you a better save, so its perfectly valid to run the numbers against the normal 4+ save of the Flayed Ones when sorting out their durability.

Seriously? How prevalent are the ignore cover AP 4 or better weapons? Seriously? Marker lights can be turned off, other then that, the most prominent things you mentioned were either worse then AP 4, or BETTER, meaning they kill MEq just as efficiently...until you get to RP (and the fact that Flayed Ones are cheaper then MEq), and we once again come full circle to the fact that Flayed Ones are incredibly resilient, even against the super scary weapons in the game.

Do you have trouble understanding that a 4+ save is worse than a 3+ or 2+ cover save? I don't get what is so surprisingly that any weapon that ignores cover won't care you had the unit Go To Ground and is more effective against such units than ones that hadn't. I don't care about AP 4, and if you read what you quoted I never said anything about AP 4. I was defending my use of the 4+ Armor Save over the 2+/3+ Cover Save you could potentially get.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

My local meta has plenty of Area Terrain. Shoot, my board at home has plenty of Area Terrain. You seem to think that because there is a piece of Area Terrain in each quarter you'll automatically be able to make use of it. That's just not the case depending on the table and how your enemy deploys. And that says nothing of Servo Skulls/Choosers of the Slain and other options some armies have access to that can hamper your Infiltrating.

They just need to be within striking distance of an objective man. That's generally not too much to ask. Also, you are still assuming Infiltrate. That is probably the least taken option for me, especially when I'm facing servo skulls and the like.

Options man. Options options options.

I like how earlier when talk of Deep Strike and Outflank were mentioned you responded by saying to Infiltrate, and then when use of Infiltrate is mentioned its back to Outflank or Deep Strike.

And now we go back to a section you quoted but tacitly ignored: The limited movement capacity of the Flayed Ones. "Striking distance of an objective" is less than 12" typically.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Again you are jumping to sketchy conclusions here with regards to the tables I play on. And I'm not sure why. In a tournament the objectives are placed for you, so some of the time yes, you'll have a few Objectives near terrain. But let me make a sketchy conclusion and take a guess that you must play against some players who don't understand how to place objectives when you are in a normal game.

Not at all. Think about this. If they aren't placing their objectives anywhere near area terrain, what does that do to their propensity to hold said objectives? Also, unless your area terrain is only in the far corners, its pretty difficult to place objectives where area terrain is no where near the objectives.

It depends entirely on the army in question. But I'll also repeat myself and point out that the terrain being anywhere near such an objective is a trade off for Flayed Ones. Potentially, they are more protected from enemy shooting. Just as likely, their movement is slowed down and if they needed to charge the enemy they are more likely to fail, and their Initiative being lowered can still be a bad thing. Overall, probably worth the trade off but its still a set of problems that the Wraith just don't have to deal with.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

To me this sounds easier said than done. You hunt heavy weapon squads? Who are you playing against that doesn't protect them? Be it HWT or Devastators, its a vulnerable unit that relies on the rest of your army for protection, which means that against a half-way competent opponent your Flayed Ones are going to have to deal with something else first.

Unless of course my Wraith/TPs/DLord has dealt with them first, right? Hunting heavy weapon squads is their least nominal role, no doubt. More often then not, its the result of a luck Imotehk Scarab role and exploiting a bone head mistake.

I'm almost wondering why you bothered mentioning it at all now, given you state you usually Outflank (or Deep Strike?) them rather than Infiltrate. You'd almost never have opportunity to hunt down enemy heavy weapons.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
Wait, what? I think we lost something in translation their. I want to make them a threat, because I want them to eat bullets instead of anything else in my army. That doesn't mean I want them to die, just that, if the enemy dedicated the firepower it takes to reasonably kill 20 GtG Flayed Ones....well...my Wraiths, TPs, Dlord are about to have a field day .

If you are still taking Wraith and a DLord, they'll be the biggest threat regardless and will draw fire. Your Flayed Ones are eating up at least 14% of your army in points at 1850 and they truly aren't that scary or threatening. Wraith can get expensive fast, and you already are taking Imotekh and a Destroyer Lord. How many scoring units are you taking? It sounds like it'll be easy to prevent you from being able to claim any objective, meaning I just need to worry about secondary objectives and trying to capture one primary.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Depends on the number of objectives. With 3 objectives, you likely only have to worry about taking one, so you can throw your full weight behind it. With 5 objectives, you likely can contest another one to make it an even fight. The only time its really a major concern is when there are 4 objectives.

Not really. Contesting one objective always makes a big difference, particularly if it is one the opponent was originally counting on, regardless of how many objectives there are.

If its one the opponent was originally counting on its probably being sat on by something you'll have to dislodge, and Flayed Ones aren't that good and doing so. The Wraith and DLord however...

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Lack of experience with the idea? They're Infiltrators. That's it.

That's not it. As you yourself go on to elaborate.

If you are having such an easy time, clearly you don't play against players that know how to deal with Infiltrators.

Or, uh...I just don't infiltrate them....when my opponent has "dealt with" the possibility of infiltrate...?

Do you really Deep Strike them? That's hysterical if you do, they must mishap often in a large unit. If not, then no. They're just Infiltrators. All Infiltrators get to Outflank or Infiltrate. So dealing with them is not substantially different from any other unit with Infiltrate. Except when they Outflank they can't shoot at me.

Hint: When dealing with Outflankers, it helps to not place Objectives near the board edge. If the enemy places his objective near a board edge for outflanking, more power to him. I'd vote on sacrificing that Objective and focusing on the others. Minimizing the effect of a unit can be more efficient than trying to shoot it. Particularly when they are slow and have a small threat radius.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Deep Strike? By all means! Pile on up for the Template/Blast weapons and, if its a big unit, risk the mishap. Outflank? Slightly more scary but you'll still be far away from the enemy and possibly far away from an objective.

Pin point deep strike? Run (to spread out)? Don't place your units in stupid locations? Flexibly man. You never go into battle with one option in mind. You see what the opponent has, how the terrain is setup, where the objectives are, and decide from there. I sometimes call my Flayed Ones my surgical shotgun. I find the weakest route to an objective, and dictate my deployment accordingly.

Hysterical. To say nothing of how easy it is to have a Deep Strike mishap with such a large unit normally, or to spread out a unit with an average Run distance of 3", but how pray tell do you manage to spread out enough to dodge template/blast weapons when you have to land within 6" of an enemy unit to not scatter? And do you Outflank against those armies where this would be a suicidally bad idea or do you Infiltrate? I'm curious, given your comments regarding both those options previously.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Leadership 8 has a 72% chance of success, sure. Leadership 9 passes 81% of the time however and Leadership 10 passes 92% of the time. Ignoring that CSM are likely Fearless due to their Icon of Vengeance, Grey Hunters are probably going to be Leadership 9 or 10, depending if they are lead by a Wolf Guard Pack Leader or an HQ.

Seriously? That's some fancy goal posting moving there. I almost never see CSM take IofV. And Wolf Guard/HQ with Grey Hunters is, at best, a 50/50 occurrence. That might be the way you run SW, its not the way most competitive armies run them though.

Odd, I see IoV often enough (usually in just 1 unit) and you definitely see VOTLW a lot for Ld 9.

I'd love to see these numerous competitive lists you allege exist without Wolf Guard. The exact opposite is true. Either they are like Frankie's list where its all Wolf Guard, or they're hoofing it with 11 models in a Grey Hunter pack, or they're Drop Podding in with Wolf Guard to make sure they don't break and have two special weapons since they aren't a full 10 man squad. SW lists with 10 man Grey Hunters squads are around, but it happens a lot less in 6E than in 5E.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

And that's just looking at things in a vacuum. You'll have other threats for the enemy to deal with, and they'll have other units able to deal with those threats and to lend help with the Flayed Ones if they are a credible threat.

Exactly. If it's a well stacked Grey Hunter unit, the Flayed Ones aren't going to be going in at it alone. Throw the DLord in, or just assault them with the Wraiths instead. Etc.

And if you do that, something other than Grey Hunters are going to be part of the fray as well.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

And why should I have to prove you wrong? I've raised legitimate concerns with "the tactic" and run some numbers to see things don't align up perfectly with what you are saying. My concerns are either outright ignored or given responses that are inconsistent in the application of the tactic as you describe it. You also seem to be the only Necron player in the world that espouses the supposed benefits of Flayed Ones.

Your math was accurate, your analysis of that math was flawed. I'm pretty sure I've directly addressed every concern you have raised. Ultimately though, I know they are good. I know the numbers behind why they are good. I've see them in action to confirm they are good.

And I argue that your analysis of the unit and tactics available to you is flawed or just blind.

Do the math on an atypical scenario of Bolters firing at Flayed Ones vs Wraith. The numbers clearly show that once you factor in Reanimation Protocol, both units are just as resilient on a per-wound basis. You say that the Flayed Ones are more resilient to the shooting prior to Going To Ground, despite the number of unsaved wounds caused by end of phase being identical to both units. That's clearly wrong.

Do the math again with lower AP weapons and the Wraith edge out over the Flayed Ones. You say Going To Ground of course solves this. Fair enough, it can. Going To Ground can totally improve the Save vs Shooting for the unit. Provided the entire unit, every model, is in Area Terrain. Provided you aren't taking Barrage fire. Or being shot by a Template weapon. Or the weapon otherwise Ignores Cover. You outright ignore that there are numerous ways, even common ways, of getting around your Cover Save and that with people taking an ADL all the time these things are becoming more and more popular in the global meta.

Do the math against various units you may end up in close combat with. Statistically against most enemies they'll only go into the fight with 15-16 models out of the original 20. Best case scenario. In a vacuum, the Flayed Ones tend to lose the fight the first round and they win some/lose some in the second depending on what they are fighting. Somehow this makes them excellent in close combat, despite clearly needing to be lead by an expensive HQ.

(My apologies here if I'm confusing you with someone else, the thread is starting to blur between our back and forth!) Someone points out the drawbacks of a melee only unit Outflanking, they're told not to. Point out the flaws of Infiltrating, they're told not to. Point out the flaws of Deep Striking, and they are alternatively told not to and told to do it all the time. The draw backs (of which there are a few) of Deep Striking within 6" of the enemy are ignored.

Point out that Template weapons will really hurt Flayed Ones, and you get told to spread them out. The fact that will either be next to impossible to do on the turn they arrive from Deep Strike/Outflanking is ignored. The fact that its very difficult to do if you want to stay in Area Terrain is ignored.

I can keep going on. Someone brings up a problem, and you tell them its not a problem because of X. Meanwhile, doing X causes Y to become a problem. This gets pointed out and you say to do Z. Meanwhile, Z causes X to be a problem. And the cycle continues. You seem to be trying to have your cake and eat it too.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
As for the rest, this hobby is expensive, which simply perpetuates the group think and echo chamber tendencies. Most people who wrote off Flayed Ones did so day 1 and have never looked back. They didn't reanalyze them in 6th, and no one wants to drop 200 dollars of 20 Flayed Ones (which is outragoues) and risk them being bad, especially when the echo chamber (who, for the most part, have never actually used the unit properly) is telling them they are bad.

It's really that simple.

Most people have written off Flayed Ones because they don't contribute much for their point cost and the only way they are remotely viable is with Imotekh, which not all Necron lists take. Given more and more people are willing to spend money on Forge World, how common it is to find stuff cheaply on EBay, and how you could convert the cheaper Necron Warriors, I somehow doubt its the pricetag stopping people.

I'm glad they are working for you. I think its completely silly you are spending 260 points on a unit that pretty much can only contest a single objective, to say nothing of some of the other hidden costs associated with taking them (and I'm not just talking the points in the HQ FOC slot(s)). Against the armies I play as and several I play against, its going to be a little lackluster. For reasons given ad nausem now.

More importantly however, that's not how you compare units. You have to consider what the upgrade is offering you in your analysis. Your argument would be like comparing 10 Grey Hunters with 2 Flamers to 10 Grey Hunters with 2 Plasma Guns and saying that the Flamer unit is the better unit by RPP and thus taking the Plasma Gun unit is a waste. That doesn't consider all the angles.

When comparing units resilience per point you take the base unit, as that lets you see how tough the selection is per model and for the unit for the initial cost of taking the unit.

This is completely wrong. Of course WCs add something to the unit. They also make the unit more expensive. You always calculate RPP based off the total cost of the unit, because that is the effective "hole" in your list when the unit gets shot down. I'm sorry, you simply don't understand how RPP works.

When analyzing a unit you have to start with the basics. That would be the unit in Open Terrain. Its a very realistic possibility you will be in Open Terrain (are you forgetting that Focus Fire means that any model not in the Area Terrain doesn't get a cover save?) and if you are in close combat you will effectively be in Open Terrain when it comes to taking hits. This is especially true when comparing a unit to another unit, as in most cases both units can benefit from Cover Saves. I'll grant you this is less of the case with Wraith.

This is also not true. Since 5th edition and ubiquitous cover saves, the general tendency is to assume cover saves...because they are ubiquitous...AND, you have quite a bit of control over them.

Instant Death is definitely an effect to worry about, but you need to keep in mind that there won't be a large volume of S8+ weapons usually. A Long Fang Pack with 5 Missile Launchers,
a fairly common unit to face, is only causing 0.93 unsaved wounds. That means, with Instant Death factored in, a Long Fang Pack has a 93% chance of killing one Wraith.

How about Battle Cannons, Doomsday Arcs, etc? There are several very pertinent S8+ weapons to consider.

That means, with Instant Death factored in, a Long Fang Pack has a 93% chance of killing one Wraith.

That is not what the math says. It says you will average .93 wounds/salvo (and of course each wound=2). Completely different concept.

Considering the size of the units, how much this "hurts" is surprisingly close outside of Cover. 13%-19% of the unit dying (Flayed Ones) versus 17% of the unit (Wraith) when going with my original examples getting shot by 5 BS 4 Krak Missiles.

Outside of cover is largely irrelevant, and you keep separating RP as if in 95% of all shooting cases you won't get it. That's MUCH less realistic then separating cover. Sorry, you only don't have cover if you choose to not have cover in most cases (or you are playing Tau, etc). You deploy them, not the opponent (well, sometimes that's not true, strictly speaking )

So the rest of your numbers are mostly meaningless. 7.7% of the Flayed One unit dies to the average long fang salvo, versus close ~16% of the Flayed One unit. The better the cover, the bigger the disparity. You are trying to pull in an unrealistic scenario to make your point.

Point in fact, I didn't gloss over it. I merely pointed out that there is more to unit analysis than resiliency per point, and highlighted some (but not all) of the Other Stuff you get for those extra points per wound. Frankly, you are the one glossing over things if you ignore what you get for the extra 4.5 points per wound: Increased Strength, Fearless, Rending, a 3++ Save (Open Terrain or in Close Combat this becomes important), Jump Infantry... And that says nothing of having options available to enhance your abilities further. That's an awful lot crammed into those 4.5 points per wound.

I'm well aware of all those things. I use Wraiths in every game too. But for the purposes of this discussion, ie, who more efficiently eats bullets, who is better at camping an enemy objective, all of those things are completely, 100%, irrelevant.

Wraith are down 17% and the Flayed Ones are down 13%, yes. The Flayed Ones also one unsaved wound away from having to take a Morale Test. Granted, only 9% chance to fail, but you can't just ignore it.

Sure, I guess.

Tau have Night Vision available on the cheap or free with many units. Searchlights are available for free or cheap on many vehicles for most other armies. So you might not be benefiting from Night Fighting. Furthermore, stick a Wraith unit in Area Terrain and while it can't Go To Ground it can definitely get a 2+ Cover Save if its far enough away.

Well of course. The fact is, in the current Meta, outside of Tau, most people simply don't bring anti Night Fighting components. The only time Wraiths ever claim a 2+ Cover Save is in ruins, with Shrouded. It can happen, but it's pretty damn rare (And also means the Wraiths are way to far away from the enemy).

Which part was untrue? It all looks true to me. Flayed Ones are more resilient when they Go To Ground and get a 3+/2+ Cover Save. Wraith are more resilient in the Open and in Close Combat.

You said the words "even assuming cover." So, those words, plus your conclusion, was simply not true. Even without cover, Flayed Ones are still more resilient per point to AP 5+ and S8+. So the last part of your statement isn't even true to the vast majority of shooting and CC attacks in the game.

1. Why would you ignore how resilient a unit is per wound? You have to take that into consideration as well as the price per wound. So in your opinion Chaos Cultists are vastly more resilient compared to Chaos Space Marines? You may not realize it, but that's what you are saying.

That's absolutely true, and is exactly what I'm saying. Why do you think cheap spammy wounds (guard blobs) are dominating the meta, and MEq are sucking ass? Because resiliency per wound is meaningless. Resiliency per point is the foundational mechanic of all durability. It's why Terms struggle so much, because despite their improved save, they are still just really expensive wounds at the end of the day.

3. Going To Ground, again, has its own drawbacks and is not a perfect solution and there is a reason Focus Fire (BRB page 18-19) and Template weapons exists. Don't assume you'll have a Cover Save. You just won't every time.

Are you still trying to say GtG is bad? And way more often then not, I will have cover. Way more often. Way, way more often. You are desperately trying to cling to a mostly irrelevant scenario.

4. Night Fighting, also again, isn't a guaranteed source of protection. There are abundantly available ways to negate the Cover Save bonuses from Night Fighting while its going on, and things still can take away or ignore Cover Saves.

It's no guarantee, sure, but unless you are facing Tau, it's a pretty solid proposition.

. No, you haven't mentioned Res Orbs. That increases the effective point cost of the unit when calculating RPP. It requires the taking of an Independent Character and eating up an HQ slot (one of which you apparently usually have filled with Imotekh). You are looking at a minimum of 120 or 125 points to give Flayed Ones a Resurrection Orb. A Royal Court can't split off to join Flayed Ones.

I'm well aware of how the army I've been playing for one and half years functions, thank you. Your point about the Res Orb is a fair one, but more often then not that Res Orb has been clicking for other units for several turns before it gets moved over to the Flayed Ones, so the cost is pretty well spread out. Also, its attached to a Destroyer Lord, I don't seriously have to justify him to you do I?

For a unit of 20 Flayed Ones, that's an increased cost of 6 points per model, more for smaller units, and more if you take anything else on the Lord. The Lord cannot set up with them on Turn 1 due to Infiltrate as well.

After factoring in the increased point cost and opportunity costs, the slight bump to resiliency you gain suddenly seems a lot less attractive to me when comparing to Wraith.

Yes, again, I'm aware of how my army functions. But I love how you've spent this entire time ignoring Whip Coils, but now you are factoring in both the DLords entire cost AND the Res Orbs entire cost in the unit, without factoring in the extra 3 T6 2+ wounds you are also getting (or the fact that the Res Orb makes the DLord 16.7% more likely to stand up, which awesome, or the fact that the Res Orb could be buffing other units as well, etc). That is not in the least bit intellectually honest, and it's not how the game works.

So Flayed Ones have only one purpose: camp and contest an objective. They're incapable of doing anything else?

'

I never said that. Nice strawman though. I said that is the purpose they excel at. They are hard to kill and its easy to find them a favorable match up in the vast majority of lists in the current "shooty" meta, which are favorable conditions in a pure Kill Point mission as well.

Also, why can't Wraith benefit from Night Fighting? Stick them in Area Terrain and they still get a 2+ Save...

That's not true. It has to be Ruins, and they have to beyond 24". They do benefit beyond 36" like anyone else does though. Both of which scenarios would only realistically occur in your own DZ, not theirs. So, this is not to say that Wraiths NEVER benefit from Night Fighting, just to point out that it is much, much more situational.

I'm definitely approaching this with an open mind. I prefer using the underdog units, or units that the general opinion is negative and doing well with them. At the same time though, there are just choices in this game that never really make sense and the more we argue here the more I'm just having the negative notions of Flayed Ones reinforced. Maybe there is a reason you don't see them at tournaments usually.

Yes, you keep consistently and deliberately placing them in the worst possible and least likely scenarios and they don't look good.... You seem to have a different definition of open minded and intellectually honest then I do.

What does the MEQ Leadership value make not true? The only thing related to Ld value I mentioned is that Flayed Ones/Warriors are slightly less durable than MEQ (4+ save vs 3+; they both benefit from cover equally) and that they'd have to take Morale Tests more often, which is true on both counts. Also, with Night Fighting in effect, MEQ benefit from it just as much as Flayed Ones do if you are comparing their resiliency... And they are only 2-3 points cheaper than MEQ, so I don't see that as a "large margin".

You're correct. I was thinking "more likely to fail a moral check the MEq."

But really, that was a comparison of Flayed Ones vs Wraith. A-D are all unaddressed I note.

It wasn't unaddressed, it was just true (for the most part). Yes, you correctly identified the areas Wraiths are stronger. C...I don't know if you meant that to be a strength or a weakness (wouldn't getting to start closer to the enemy be a good thing for a CC unit...?) but it's also not true. Infiltrate is just one of many options at the Flayed Ones disposal, as I keep trying to tell you.

Imotekh does a lot to amplify all your forces, not just Flayed Ones. Since its an equal bump I'm failing to see how he makes Flayed Ones better than alternatives. They'd have to be better than the alternatives to begin with to be better with Imotekh.

Seriously? I just spent 4 pages identifying how Flayed Ones benefit more from Night Fighting the Wraiths, I pointed out how Imo has an ability that DIRECTLY BUFFS FLAYED ONES AND NO ONE ELSE. Imotehk's mechanics buff CC over shooting intrinsically. So while he buffs Warriors, he also nerfs them. Flayed Ones suffer zero from Imo's mechanics, and only benefit from them.

I'm completely baffled that you actually wrote those words.

You are either Infiltrating, Outflanking, or Deep Striking. I've been consistent in saying that. Comments made by you earlier seemed to be negative of Outflanking and Deep Strike, and frankly Infiltrating is the most reliable way to get them anywhere.

I've consistently said you take the best option available considering the mission, the objectives, the terrain, and the opponents deployment.

If you Deep Strike with a 20 man unit, you are very susceptible to Deep Strike mishaps and you are bunched up perfectly to get hit by Blast and Template weapons.

You just don't get greedy, and you minimize the chance for mishap to less the 5%. Then you run, which more often then not will spread you out plenty.

All they can do is Run and Go to Ground when they arrive, and the best cover save you are going to have is likely to be a 6+ from Going to Ground (you mishap if you land in terrain).

No you don't. You take difficult terrain tests. So (1/6)(1/2)(2/3) of your models might suffer a casualty (ie, maybe 1). Please double check the rules before you try to "school" somebody who has already told you they have used a unit over a 100 times.

If you Outflank it depends entirely on where objectives were placed to be a threat. You show up, its a toss up if you have cover (which will limit how far in you can move) and all you can do is Run and Go to Ground. You probably won't want to Go to Ground since you shouldn't be close enough to contest an Objective without a turn of movement. The plus side is the enemy only has 2-3 turns to deal with the unit instead of 5.

Nova standard uses objectives in the corners or quarters, both of which Outflanking works extremely well in. Other then area terrain, you also have the chances of LOS terrain on the flanks. This is what I'm referring to "choosing the best deployment based on what the board looks like." If the board is setup beneficial to Outflanking, you Outflank. Otherwise, you don't. I don't know if I can make that any clearer.

But you have to get into the neighborhood. 6" + D6" of movement, and its a 3" buffer around the objective. So on average you need to be within 12" of the Objective. Or worse, you have to move through difficult terrain and its 2D6" (pick the highest) + D6" of movement, so you need to be within 9" of the Objective.

You aren't going to start out that close to an enemy objective most of the time, there will be at least a turn of movement where you can't Go to Ground. Be it early on, or later on.

That's just not true from my experiences.

A) Contesting objectives is vital to the game, but there are other units that can do it nearly as well and still others that can do it just as well and all of the alternatives also bring other options to the table. If your unit can only do one thing its easier to negate it. As I mentioned previously, the only time Flayed Ones contesting an objective becomes immediately pressing is when you have an even number of Objectives. If you have an odd number, there are other units you have that must be claiming objectives, so why wouldn't I just go take them away from you and let your non-scoring unit "keep" whatever objective they went for?

There is no just as well, or nearly as well. Your inability to concede that point is making this conversation rather difficult.

Your even/odd number objectives has no basis of relevancy in actual tournaments. I'll lnow which objectives you are planning to hold onto before the Flayed Ones even touch the board. I will force you to deal with them. That is what they are there for.

B) Flayed Ones aren't clearing much of anything with an assault most of the time though. And its not enough to be engaged with an enemy unit to have them not claim the objective, they just need a model within 3" of it at the end of the game. You have no grenades, so you are hitting at Initiative 1 if the Objective is near cover (as you like to say it will usually be), more and more units are bringing defensive grenades, and not all your models will be contributing attacks (particularly if you are spread out so as to not get owned by Blast and Template weapons).

More and more units are bringing defensive grenades? You mean like Fire Warriors? You really think Fire Warriors have a prayer if 20 Flayed Ones come barreling into them? Even if I lost half my models to Overwatch (that is one serious mother fething overwatch), I'm going to clear the Fire Warriors off.

Lack of grenades? I'm I2 dude. You know Wraiths don't have grenades either? And according to you, they never take whip coils anymore so... Also, you only have to be within 3" to contest an objective as well. And, not all of THEIR units will be contributing CC attacks either. You don't seem to have a lot of real experience with CC.

And again, for them to do the clearing out that means they can't have Gone To Ground!

Which turn? Options man. Options. Options. Options. Options. Should I pull out the thesaurus?

If you are assaulting, you are likely assaulting through cover and are Initiative 1. But we'll assume you get your Initiative 2.

TH/SS Termis are sitting in cover? Wait, so I can't assume area terrain for my Flayed Ones, but the TH/SS termies can? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL wow....

Now to completely dismantle your "scenario." My comments in itallics.

So looking at the numbers, I wouldn't call either of your examples "mediocre". I wouldn't say you can "easily" take them. You'd have to have quite a lot of luck on your side to come out on top.

WOW. Seriously? They straight up, point for point, kick both units ass. I feel like I'm arguing with Stelek.

Yep. I knew it was coming. A Grey Hunter scenario where you assume they pass counter attack (a 70% chance).

Grey Hunters are an extremely efficient CC unit. And yes, for all intents and purposes, they are a CC unit with guns. Point for point they are tough for the Flayed Ones. Luckily, in a good list, Flayed Ones aren't the only thing you are going to throw at them. (See how I didn't take the math, start pretending the Flayed Ones don't really struggle, and say ridiculous things like "I wouldn't say you can "easily" take them. You'd have to have quite a lot of luck on your side to come out on top." That's what we call intellectual honesty. Flayed Ones can take blobs and I1 Terms, but struggle with GH. Will you please concede this point before I start kicking kittens ?)

So the examples you gave are going to rock Flayed Ones most of the time, and very basic Grey Hunter pack is what will have "mediocre" performance. Many Grey Hunter packs will bring at least one Power Weapon on top of the Grey Hunter (in the form of the attached Wolf Guard), which will typically tip the balance into the Grey Hunter's favor.

Do you really not see the discrepancy between how you are approaching the above to examples in this one? Please read back over your words and tell me you don't see the discrepancy.

EDIT: Wait a minute....I just re-read this. After running the numbers...are you actually trying to claim the blobs and Terms "rock" the flayed ones "most of the time." Dude. Tell you what. I'll give you 5 TH/SS Terms (any book you want) and I'll take 15 Flayed Ones. If you win one game out of ten, I'll give you a thousands dollars. Flayed Ones make TH/SS Terms there bitch. I can't believe you can look at those numbers and come away with any other conclusion, LET ALONE THE EXACT OPPOSITE OF WHAT THEY SAY. Jesus tap dancing Christ.

Truly, the lack of special close combat attacks is very much hurting the potential of the Flayed ones.

Weight of attacks is the current name of the game in shooting. Why people pretend its suddenly a bad thing in assault...I have no idea.

The facts have been sprinkled around in my replies. What units of yours are anywhere near what could be called effective in close combat, other than your Lords? Wraith, Flayed Ones, Lychguard. Honestly, I'd say Lychguard are your second best unit looking at it again. Those aforementioned Grey Hunters are taking down only 1-2 on the charge, while 3 Lychguard are likely killing 2-3 Grey hunters. Lychguard are superior against your typical unit, while combat specialists will actually have a harder time with Wraith.

Wow. Way to cherry pick bud. Throw those LG against the Guards and the Terms, and get back to me. LG are also awful in RPP, which the primary reason I take Flayed Ones instead.

No, I just know that you won't always get a 3+/2+ cover save.

Yeah, sure. And ABarges won't always get to shoot before they're dead. And Wraiths won't always reach CC before their dead. And Helldrakes won't always come on till turn 4. Any other units you want to discuss in their worst possible scenarios? All unit have less favorable conditions. All of them. Every, single, unit, in the game, has less favorable conditions. Lack of cover is just as likely as any of those others, if not less so.

Which would be what is called "anecdotal evidence" which is a fallacy.

You don't seem to understand what either anecdotal evidence or fallacies are. Anecdotal would be to say "this one time, they did this this and this." When you have a 100+ games with a unit, your experience starts to raise to the "objectively tested" rather then "randomly anecdotal" level. Do you call all scientific experiments anecdotal just because you weren't there to witness them? I wouldn't think so.

Also, while we are on the subject of fallacies, the fact that you keep alluding to tournament lists is an argument from authority, and most certainly is a fallacy. Feel free to look it up.

Apparently showing you the math, which you yourself said looked correct, isn't enough to show you that you are mistaken here. Or its going in one ear and out the other without actually being processed.

Don't insult me, especially when you are the one talking out of ignorance. I explained to you how your math was right, but your analysis of that math was flawed. You portray a clear lack of understanding regarding RPP. Show some humility.

And that's all if we're in Open Terrain. Flayed Ones are not any more resilient than Wraith without Cover Saves and Going To Ground. That's just the hard numbers. So your statement is patently false.

Cute. I already explained why this wrong above, a couple times now. You either understand it or you don't.

Strawman

It's a strawman because be good against one specific unit (TWC) has nothing to do with whether or not a unit is good in the grand scheme of things. A lot of CC and non CC units struggle against TWC. In fact most units do. The fact that Flayed Ones are included with most units here is largely irrelevant to their viability as a hole. Strawman.

True, but if my basic troops have a decent chance of coming out of a scrap victorious, let alone my heavy hitters, its not much of a threat. Maybe I'm doing the math wrong, though you yourself say I'm not. Care to show me the math that has you so convinced? Or is this all coming from experience, anecdotal evidence? If its the latter, then I may as well stop talking. I don't know you so your credibility is questionable, and I don't know the circumstances so luck/chance could be a massive factor in why you think what you do. Myself? I'm skeptical. I want to see the numbers showing its a favorable option in close combat against what you are most likely to face off against.

Grey Hunters are anything but a "basic unit." They are widely regarded as one of the most efficient units in the game. So, if you built an all foot SW list, and I had to face you, I might struggle a bit. The thing is, all foot SW isn't in the least bit competitive. At all. So you are more likely to have a Drop list (which you have said yourself). So now, you have X points tied up in Pods. I've never once lost to a drop pod list. Ever. This discussion can't portray that, and no amount of math hammering will convince you. I would love to play a game though.

Was wondering when the name calling would begin.

Name calling? I was quoting Forest Gump...? What...I just...huh?

The point that you miraculously missed, is that the Heldrake doesn't care if you Go To Ground which, in the context of what I was replying to in the above quoted, is vital information. You were saying that Heldrakes are worthless against your Flayed Ones and that shooting them is a waste of time. You are 100% in the wrong on that count. Between Vector Strike and the Baleflamer, the Heldrake will be more efficient at killing your Gone to Ground Flayed Ones than most anything else the Chaos Player has available to him outside of close combat.

Sure, I guess. But you are miraculously missing the point that, because of their relatively low point cost and RP, the Flayed Ones are less concerned with a Helldrake then just about anything else in the game, except basic Demon troops I guess. You brought the Helldrake as some sort of counter. It's not. I would love for a Helldrake to waist all game trying to kill Flayed Ones. Sounds like an easy win.

So your argument that I was replying to there is laughably wrong.

Cute.

Do you have trouble understanding that a 4+ save is worse than a 3+ or 2+ cover save? I don't get what is so surprisingly that any weapon that ignores cover won't care you had the unit Go To Ground and is more effective against such units than ones that hadn't. I don't care about AP 4, and if you read what you quoted I never said anything about AP 4. I was defending my use of the 4+ Armor Save over the 2+/3+ Cover Save you could potentially get.

The implication you were making is that it is more likely they won't have cover or it will be ignored. If you really think that, then you must play Tau and Tau only. Tau and Helldrakes. That must be 100% of your meta.

Look, you have two pools of weapons. Ones that ignore cover, and ones that don't. Which pool do you think is bigger? And by god, if you say the ones that ignore cover, I'm sending you to be tonight without desert.

I like how earlier when talk of Deep Strike and Outflank were mentioned you responded by saying to Infiltrate, and then when use of Infiltrate is mentioned its back to Outflank or Deep Strike.

O P T I O N S.

And now we go back to a section you quoted but tacitly ignored: The limited movement capacity of the Flayed Ones. "Striking distance of an objective" is less than 12" typically.

I didn't tacitly ignore anything. I know that you almost never see a tournament board that only has objectives 12" away from all terrain. In fact, I'm not sure if I've ever seen that, in 13 years of playing this game, unless it was just a "fun" demo game on planet bowling ball.

Overall, probably worth the trade off but its still a set of problems that the Wraith just don't have to deal with.

Yep.

I'm almost wondering why you bothered mentioning it at all now, given you state you usually Outflank (or Deep Strike?) them rather than Infiltrate. You'd almost never have opportunity to hunt down enemy heavy weapons.

...speechless....

If you are still taking Wraith and a DLord, they'll be the biggest threat regardless and will draw fire. Your Flayed Ones are eating up at least 14% of your army in points at 1850 and they truly aren't that scary or threatening. Wraith can get expensive fast, and you already are taking Imotekh and a Destroyer Lord. How many scoring units are you taking? It sounds like it'll be easy to prevent you from being able to claim any objective, meaning I just need to worry about secondary objectives and trying to capture one primary.

Ah, I see, so now after assuming this entire time that they will have been shot at before reaching CC....suddenly you switched gears and now you are not shooting at them anymore? And are you sure the Wraiths are the bigger threat? What if the Wraiths were outside of their assault range but the Flayed Ones weren't, whose the bigger threat then?

Also, I have almost twice the scoring bodies as the average Necron list. Scoring is the least of my worries.

If its one the opponent was originally counting on its probably being sat on by something you'll have to dislodge, and Flayed Ones aren't that good and doing so. The Wraith and DLord however...

By what? I keep hearing this is a "shooty edition". Outside of your Grey Hunters, which is a legitimate concern, what is the average unit you expect to encounter guarding an objective in the opponents DZ? Think long and hard before you answer this one.

Also, even if the Flayed Ones "aren't good at dislodging it," no matter how rare that is, they are better at staying there. Wraiths/Dlord clear it out, Flayed Ones setup camp.

Do you really Deep Strike them? That's hysterical if you do, they must mishap often in a large unit. If not, then no. They're just Infiltrators. All Infiltrators get to Outflank or Infiltrate. So dealing with them is not substantially different from any other unit with Infiltrate. Except when they Outflank they can't shoot at me.

Did you miss the point where they have a pinpoint deepstrike mechanic? Also, deep striking and avoiding mishap is chlids play for veterans. Only the inexperienced say such silly things.

Hint: When dealing with Outflankers, it helps to not place Objectives near the board edge. If the enemy places his objective near a board edge for outflanking, more power to him. I'd vote on sacrificing that Objective and focusing on the others. Minimizing the effect of a unit can be more efficient than trying to shoot it. Particularly when they are slow and have a small threat radius.

Hint: In a lot of tournaments, you don't have a choice. Hint: If they centrally locate their objectives, they will tend to castle around them, leaving more real estate open for infiltrate/deep strike. Hint: If I can include you giving up on an objective in your DZ into my victory conditions, I'm going to win a lot more games then I'm going to lose.

Hysterical. To say nothing of how easy it is to have a Deep Strike mishap with such a large unit normally, or to spread out a unit with an average Run distance of 3", but how pray tell do you manage to spread out enough to dodge template/blast weapons when you have to land within 6" of an enemy unit to not scatter?

Outside of drop pods, you obviously have little experience with deep striking. A 2" run is plenty to spread out in all directions against Templates/Blasts. Why do you think being 6" away from the enemy will prevent me from spreading out? I guess if its like the perfect piece or real estate surrounded by enemies. In which case....WOOOHOO!

And do you Outflank against those armies where this would be a suicidally bad idea or do you Infiltrate? I'm curious, given your comments regarding both those options previously.

A.) Deep Striking is only a "suicidal bad idea" when you choose to make it one, in which case its a risk/reward scenario where the reward itself makes it not a bad idea. Every single board (except maybe against orcs or nids) has tons of real estate that can safely be exploited by Deep Strike.
B.) I'm not trying to evade, but it really depends. Try it yourself, please. Every game you play over the next couple weeks, ask yourself what you would do if you have a unit that could DS/Infiltrate our Outflank. It just completely depends on the what I'm seeing in front of me.

Odd, I see IoV often enough (usually in just 1 unit) and you definitely see VOTLW a lot for Ld 9.

I see VOTLW a lot, but almost never IoV.

I'd love to see these numerous competitive lists you allege exist without Wolf Guard. The exact opposite is true. Either they are like Frankie's list where its all Wolf Guard, or they're hoofing it with 11 models in a Grey Hunter pack, or they're Drop Podding in with Wolf Guard to make sure they don't break and have two special weapons since they aren't a full 10 man squad. SW lists with 10 man Grey Hunters squads are around, but it happens a lot less in 6E than in 5E.

You play them a lot more then I do, so I'll concede to point. I was just reading a battle report by one of the ETC players in the UK and he played back to back games against GH they didn't have a WG in every squad, only about half, and these were top tier games. But that is an extremely limited sample pool.

And if you do that, something other than Grey Hunters are going to be part of the fray as well.

Maybe. I don't like playing games on the forums.

And I argue that your analysis of the unit and tactics available to you is flawed or just blind.

Yeah, absolutely man. My understanding of how RPP works, and all those games that Flayed Ones played a crucial role in victory...just didn't really happen. Obviously the guys who has never used the unit before knows more about it than I do. Totally.

Do the math on an atypical scenario of Bolters firing at Flayed Ones vs Wraith. The numbers clearly show that once you factor in Reanimation Protocol, both units are just as resilient on a per-wound basis. You say that the Flayed Ones are more resilient to the shooting prior to Going To Ground, despite the number of unsaved wounds caused by end of phase being identical to both units. That's clearly wrong.

You keep saying that per wound is relevant at all. It's not. Otherwise Carnifexes would still be good.

Do the math again with lower AP weapons and the Wraith edge out over the Flayed Ones.

No they don't because despite your insistence to the contrary, cover actually exists in this game. Also, many low AP weapons are also S8+. Do we need to go back into why that is relevant?

You say Going To Ground of course solves this. Fair enough, it can. Going To Ground can totally improve the Save vs Shooting for the unit. Provided the entire unit, every model, is in Area Terrain. Provided you aren't taking Barrage fire. Or being shot by a Template weapon. Or the weapon otherwise Ignores Cover. You outright ignore that there are numerous ways, even common ways, of getting around your Cover Save and that with people taking an ADL all the time these things are becoming more and more popular in the global meta.

I'm not ignoring anything. I'm correctly identifying that more often the not, cover matters. Yes, sometimes cover doesn't matter. Most times it does. If we are going to compare the units in a vacuum, should we compare the "most time" or the "some time" scenario?

In truth, we should compare both. Wraiths don't give a crap about cover save ignoring mechanics. They do care about S8+ though. Flayed Ones, on the other hand, always have at least RP, if not a 4+ and RP, against cover save ignoring mechanics. Whenever they have their 4+ and RP, they are still superior RPP then Wraiths.

So, here's how the resiliency matrix breaks down.

AP 4 and better (lower), S7 and worse, cover save ignoring weapons favor the Wraiths.

Every other weapon in the entire game favors the Flayed Ones. Please. Please tell me you get this point. If you don't get it this time, its simply because you are being intentionally obtuse.

Do the math against various units you may end up in close combat with. Statistically against most enemies they'll only go into the fight with 15-16 models out of the original 20.

Oh, so we are back to shooting the Flayed Ones now? Cool. Or are you saying "most enemies" will kill 4 or 5 Flayed Ones before they strike? Because that's comically inaccurate.

In a vacuum, the Flayed Ones tend to lose the fight the first round and they win some/lose some in the second depending on what they are fighting. Somehow this makes them excellent in close combat, despite clearly needing to be lead by an expensive HQ.

....You did three scenarios, all of which are decent CC units, and the Flayed Ones crushed 2 out of 3, despite your constant goal post moving. What you have not considered is Fire Warriors, Necron Warriors, Tactical Marines, Immortals, Havocs, Long Fangs, Devastators, Kroot, any Eldar unit, any Dark Eldar unit (almost), etc, etc, etc.

Lets just say your sample pool, where the Flayed Ones did quite well in 2 out of the 3 fights, was a little unrepresentative of the meta at large. K?

(My apologies here if I'm confusing you with someone else, the thread is starting to blur between our back and forth!) Someone points out the drawbacks of a melee only unit Outflanking, they're told not to. Point out the flaws of Infiltrating, they're told not to. Point out the flaws of Deep Striking, and they are alternatively told not to and told to do it all the time. The draw backs (of which there are a few) of Deep Striking within 6" of the enemy are ignored.

Every tactic has draw backs, but it also has advantages. I think you are referring to Jancorans post though?

Point out that Template weapons will really hurt Flayed Ones, and you get told to spread them out. The fact that will either be next to impossible to do on the turn they arrive from Deep Strike/Outflanking is ignored. The fact that its very difficult to do if you want to stay in Area Terrain is ignored.

Its not ignored at all. I've told you a hundred times run by itself greatly mitigates against templates. Being slowed by Area Terrain isn't that big of a deal when you arrive right where you want to be in the first place (or a turn's worth of movement away). It's just not that big of a deal. I know this from experience. You are making it a big deal from lack of experience. You envision it being a big deal, when the actual mechanics and mission and all other real world factors means makes it not a big deal.

It's a deal. Its the same risk you take when you plop a shooty unit in area terrain. When a CC unit comes near, you have slowed your retreat. That doesn't stop people from doing it, because the reward (cover saves) is greater then the risk (slowness).

I can keep going on. Someone brings up a problem, and you tell them its not a problem because of X. Meanwhile, doing X causes Y to become a problem. This gets pointed out and you say to do Z. Meanwhile, Z causes X to be a problem. And the cycle continues. You seem to be trying to have your cake and eat it too.

There is so much irony in this statement I think you just killed my dog.

Most people have written off Flayed Ones because they don't contribute much for their point cost and the only way they are remotely viable is with Imotekh, which not all Necron lists take. Given more and more people are willing to spend money on Forge World, how common it is to find stuff cheaply on EBay, and how you could convert the cheaper Necron Warriors, I somehow doubt its the pricetag stopping people.

That's not true at all. I know the vast majority of players haven't played with them at all. Its obvious because they say incredibly inacurate things about them, like you have so studiously demonstrated. They judged them on paper, and that was it. And the expensive unpopular models play a massive role in this. You know that's true, I don't know why you are pretending otherwise.

I'm glad they are working for you. I think its completely silly you are spending 260 points on a unit that pretty much can only contest a single objective, to say nothing of some of the other hidden costs associated with taking them (and I'm not just talking the points in the HQ FOC slot(s)). Against the armies I play as and several I play against, its going to be a little lackluster. For reasons given ad nausem now.

Easy to say when you're not actually playing me. I think I would table your Drop list in 3 turns, as is usually the case.

Talk about killing the fun in a thread guys. Good lord.

Yeah, sorry man. The topic of discussion IS Flayed Ones though. cowmonaut and I are just discussing it a little more thoroughly then most.


There is a wealth of information to be had though. I think anyone would find the read both educational and thrilling

ShadarLogoth : It's clear we have very fundamentally opposed opinions. I feel I must not be explaining things clearly or you aren't understanding what I'm arguing. For example this response of yours:

ShadarLogoth wrote:Since 5th edition and ubiquitous cover saves, the general tendency is to assume cover saves...because they are ubiquitous...AND, you have quite a bit of control over them.

This response completely ignores what I was saying and misses the point of what I was saying entirely. Similarly, this happens with other things I've argued.

There also seem to be some conclusions that you leap to that A) I can't understand how you could possibly get to them or B) I can't understand how you can possibly say what you did with a straight face. For example, here is something you said:

ShadarLogoth wrote:That is not what the math says. It says you will average .93 wounds/salvo (and of course each wound=2). Completely different concept.

But here is what you were replying to:

Cowmonaut wrote:Instant Death is definitely an effect to worry about, but you need to keep in mind that there won't be a large volume of S8+ weapons usually. A Long Fang Pack with 5 Missile Launchers, a fairly common unit to face, is only causing 0.93 unsaved wounds. That means, with Instant Death factored in, a Long Fang Pack has a 93% chance of killing one Wraith.

Related concepts and backed up by math, contrary to what you say. 0.93 unsaved wounds would be a 93% chance to cause a wound, and thus a 93% chance to kill a single Wraith thanks to Instant Death. If you think otherwise, I suggest you learn how the math actually works. To elaborate: The formula you use to determine wounds is all in percentages: %ToHit * %ToWound * %FailedSave etc. BS 4 means you need a 3+ to hit. On a 6 sided dice you need a 3, 4, 5 or 6. So you have 4 unique events out of 6 possible outcomes. Your percentage to hit can thus be represented by the fraction (4/6). Since a fraction is basically just division, 4/6 equates to roughly 0.67, which when turned into a percentage is 67%.

So I'll just drop out. It's clear, possibly several posts back, that you won't be swayed in your opinion because you have had good luck personally with Flayed Ones and you run a list specifically tailored to take advantage of them. What you don't seem to grasp is that that does not necessarily make Flayed Ones a good unit or even a strong option for the Codex. Going back to a previous argument, its much similar to (but obviously not exactly like) some Space Wolves players swearing by Blood Claws even though they are technically inferior in every way to Grey Hunters, for the same slot and same price. Can they work? Yes. Does that make them a good choice? No.

Best of luck.

What i want to knoiw....bottom line... is whether they are working.

theory Hammer is math in a vacuum that ignores the battlefield realities utterly. If I listened to that stuff, I'd never win a single game.

People love to say that things are "anecdotal" if you are doing something and doing it well... But thats assinine. The combination of REASONS why something might work is HARD to tell on paper.
In the cae of Flayed ones, I have seen them crunch a Tau force enough and for LONG enough that it gave the entire Necron force the time it NORMALLY doesn't have to approach.

Have others evebn TRIED this unit? I know all of ONE person who has even attempted this and all the rest just ignored the unit, nevr bought any and never will.

So I find it pretty unberleivable that i can pull off infiltrating turn 1 kroot charges and feel "okay" about how many points it took me to try... and the Flayed ones which are loads better in all the impotant ways get no love AT ALL?

I'm really curious to hear ACTUALIZED experiences with these. Could maybe a few of you just play with a pair of these units and see how well you can make it work, then report back on how you did it?

Cause I'd be interested. I dont play Necrons (other than the 20 games I always play to test a codex out) but I am very interested in what is possible. Not so interested in doom saying.

cowmonaut wrote:
ShadarLogoth : It's clear we have very fundamentally opposed opinions. I feel I must not be explaining things clearly or you aren't understanding what I'm arguing. For example this response of yours:

I feel the exact same way .

This response completely ignores what I was saying and misses the point of what I was saying entirely. Similarly, this happens with other things I've argued.

I guess then I don't really know what you are saying. My argument is that in normal circumstances, on average, the major tendency is, Flayed Ones are more efficient bullet eaters then Wraiths. I think we've proved that.

There also seem to be some conclusions that you leap to that A) I can't understand how you could possibly get to them or B) I can't understand how you can possibly say what you did with a straight face.

Look man. You ran the math between TH/SS terms and Flayed Ones, which clearly shows the Flayed Ones basically cannot lose that fight. It doesn't matter what the starting situation is, who charges who, whether anyone is in cover, etc. No matter what, it is extremely unlikely that Flayed Ones lose the equal point TH/SS Termies. You ran the math that should have proven this to you...and came away saying the Flayed Ones would get rocked. That's just one example where what you are saying doesn't match the evidence. I'm sorry if I find that a bit perplexing.

Related concepts and backed up by math, contrary to what you say. 0.93 unsaved wounds would be a 93% chance to cause a wound, and thus a 93% chance to kill a single Wraith thanks to Instant Death. If you think otherwise, I suggest you learn how the math actually works. To elaborate: The formula you use to determine wounds is all in percentages: %ToHit * %ToWound * %FailedSave etc. BS 4 means you need a 3+ to hit. On a 6 sided dice you need a 3, 4, 5 or 6. So you have 4 unique events out of 6 possible outcomes. Your percentage to hit can thus be represented by the fraction (4/6). Since a fraction is basically just division, 4/6 equates to roughly 0.67, which when turned into a percentage is 67%.

I understand your confusion here, because it is very common, but that is not what the math actually says. Yes, you start with percentages, but the final "answer" you are finding is the average wounds caused per salvo. The actual results fit a bell curve, and on the bell curve you will not see the Wraiths taking a single wound 93% of the time. You will see 0 wounds, for instance, more then 7% of the time. You will also see multiple wounds (before ID) more then 7% of the time. It's just, if you shoot that same salvo 100 times, the average shot will be .93 wounds (before calculating ID of course).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expected_value

^^ This is what you are calculating. The expected amount of wounds is .93, which is generally in the direct center of the probability curve. Just like the expected value of a D6 is 3.5, which is technically impossible, but if you roll a D6 100 times and average it out, you get 3.5. In general, when possible, the expected value gets the plurality of the results, but only in very small samples does it even get the majority of results. IE, you may have a 26% chance to score exactly one wound, a 20% chance to score 0, a 20% chance to score 2, etc... But you definitely don't have a 93% chance to score one, or even "one or more," which would be more likely, but still not encompass 93%. This is what some people prefer a monte carlo approach, or other similar statistical evaluations.

Consider this. If you added a 6th missile to the salvo, it would raise to 6(2÷3)(5÷6)(1÷3)= 1.11 wounds per salvo. Would it make since to say you will cause a wound 111% of the time? Of course not.

So I'll just drop out. It's clear, possibly several posts back, that you won't be swayed in your opinion because you have had good luck personally with Flayed Ones and you run a list specifically tailored to take advantage of them. What you don't seem to grasp is that that does not necessarily make Flayed Ones a good unit or even a strong option for the Codex. Going back to a previous argument, its much similar to (but obviously not exactly like) some Space Wolves players swearing by Blood Claws even though they are technically inferior in every way to Grey Hunters, for the same slot and same price. Can they work? Yes. Does that make them a good choice? No.

Best of luck.

I appreciate the candor, but for the record, I don't build my list around Flayed Ones. I wanted to make a CC/short range dominant Imotehk list, and a large Flayed One pack fits that list so well that the list is better with it then without it. I don't think your Blood Claw example is relevant at all. For one Flayed Ones aren't technically inferior to other Necron choices in every way, as I have repeatedly proven to you with math and facts. As I have demonstrated, they fulfill one role in particular, a very important role, better then any other unit. They are not to only way to accomplish this role, but I feel, because of the inherent intricacies of the unit, they accomplish it with less chance of variability, as they have the flexibility to react to your opponent (they have the most flexible deployment), they eat bullets extremely efficiently (making them superior to all other Necron CC options), they can actually defend themselves against an assault (making them superior to Warriors) and aren't relying on 5 Warriors clinging to an objective late game and praying the game actually ends (the most common way this roll is currently fullfilled in most lists). To clarify, I'm not saying "universally superior in all cases" , just superior at performing this one specific task. A task every good general should have some plan for, IE, denying opponent objectives.


Thank you for joining the thread cowmonaut . I invite you to reread some of the analysis and really think about what I'm saying. Also, I've got a thousand dollars waiting for you if you ever want to take 5 TH/SS termies against my 15 Flayed Ones. I'll even give you 10 to 1 odds .


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jancoran

I feel ya man. If you've noticed, the internet hive mind doesn't like Infiltrate or Deep Strike mechanics at all, so most units who take advantage of these mechanics are generally looked at pretty poorly. One of these days I'll get a few BR's together to highlight what the FOs can do for a list. It won't convince the unconvincible, but there are enough open minded people in the 40k community for it to be a worth while endeavor.

Baronyu wrote:

 Badablack wrote:
Can any other unit in the 40k universe accurately reenact Michael Jackson's Thriller video better than a 20-man squad of Flayed Ones led in a synchronized dance by a vinyl red jacket wearing jerry-curl wigged Overlord?

Your argument is invalid.

That depends on your conversion skill, and the base model or green stuff skill. I'm sure someone could make a bunch of space marines moonwalk into assault or something, I'm also sure that person won't be me.

I would!

ShadarLogoth wrote:

I feel ya man. If you've noticed, the internet hive mind doesn't like Infiltrate or Deep Strike mechanics at all, so most units who take advantage of these mechanics are generally looked at pretty poorly. One of these days I'll get a few BR's together to highlight what the FOs can do for a list. It won't convince the unconvincible, but there are enough open minded people in the 40k community for it to be a worth while endeavor.

Oh yes, I've noticed. though the FOC slot may be more a hindrance to people appreciatingtheir possibilities than the actual analysis. Like tau who have a goodly number of excellnt FA choices, the Necrons can get log jammed there as well.

I hope I don't get the ban hammer for threadcromancy but I agree with the internets, flayed ones in a vacuum compared to almost anything in the codex are bad, but this is 40k and nothing happens in a vacuum. I agree with shadarlogoth that if played in a list were flayed ones have a purpose they can be quite good. People seem to forget that necrons are meq units with bad initiative but trade that off for the extremely important mechanic of RP which wraiths lack. Wraiths are still good if not broken, I'm not contesting that but that's what makes TP and flayed ones viable. They stand back up. Flayed ones allow you to smash those long fangs on the back table edge or the fire warriors on the table side. Oh and because I outflanked with a beat stick of an overlord, he helps them in close combat or breaks off and pounds the land raider, riptide, wraith knight or what ever is fat and juicy and needs a a warscythe rammed up its arse.

I can honestly say as a necron player I would rather my 13 point herp derps get shot than my wraiths, and that in itself is worth the points. Second point when do you even see heavy flamers? And at that when do I care about ap? Necron units stand back up! Stand ups make your opponent rage and make necrons most basic troops scoff at lascannons

As soon as a FO thread dies it makes it's rp roll and another onepops back up. This topic is seriously unkillable in a necron sort of way.

I will sum up previous threads as follows. A giant 20 block of fo is a terrible idea. They don't score, and lack fearless. The key to survival of a big 20 block cc horde is to be fearless, an attached astknf ic, or be ld10 stuborn with a reroll. Ld10 non fearless will fold and get swept if it loses cc, and it's an expensive unit to lose.

A small block of 5 FO I will defend. It's cheap, expendable, and won't easily give up 1st blood if it ds or outflanks. It's not in a contested force org slot. It has 15 attacks which is enough to bully vulnerable units such as sabers, earth shaker carriages, vaul's support, unsupported fire warriors, pink horrors, lootas, the list is huge. LD10 and rp means it can tarpit durable units that are weak in cc such as a tfc, war walkers, long fangs, psyfleman dreads, broadsides, exc...

5 of them are an excellent distraction unit. 20 of them are 1 morale check from disaster.

Is the forge world rumor true? ie moved to troops, same stats, and entire unit has shred for 10 points? 20 of them with shred as troops for 270 would be another story...

 Dumah12 wrote:
Oh and because I outflanked with a beat stick of an overlord, ...

Too risky of a tactic. This would only work if you got the Outflanking Warlord Trait and then rolled the same table edge as your Flayed Ones. Since Flayed Ones have Infiltrate, an OL cannot join them during deployment. He would have to join them at the end of the movement phase as if a standard IC joining a unit. Unless my understanding from IC and Infiltrating units is incorrect, attempting to get a Overlord to outflank along with Flayed Ones just is not tactically feasible in most circumstances.

I would argue that because infiltrate confers outflank and infiltrating is different than outflank during reserves its still a viable tactic but I don't have my brb with me at the moment unless we can get some pages to quote.

 schadenfreude wrote:
As soon as a FO thread dies it makes it's rp roll and another onepops back up. This topic is seriously unkillable in a necron sort of way.

I will sum up previous threads as follows. A giant 20 block of fo is a terrible idea. They don't score, and lack fearless. The key to survival of a big 20 block cc horde is to be fearless, an attached astknf ic, or be ld10 stuborn with a reroll. Ld10 non fearless will fold and get swept if it loses cc, and it's an expensive unit to lose.

A small block of 5 FO I will defend. It's cheap, expendable, and won't easily give up 1st blood if it ds or outflanks. It's not in a contested force org slot. It has 15 attacks which is enough to bully vulnerable units such as sabers, earth shaker carriages, vaul's support, unsupported fire warriors, pink horrors, lootas, the list is huge. LD10 and rp means it can tarpit durable units that are weak in cc such as a tfc, war walkers, long fangs, psyfleman dreads, broadsides, exc...

5 of them are an excellent distraction unit. 20 of them are 1 morale check from disaster.

Is the forge world rumor true? ie moved to troops, same stats, and entire unit has shred for 10 points? 20 of them with shred as troops for 270 would be another story...

It's not really a rumor, lol.

In a Dark Harvest list, Flayed ones are troops. They start at 10 man, and can purchase Flensing scarabs for the unit, for 10 points. This grants them shred on the first round of CC in the game.

Due to this thread....I keep swaying! I don't know what to believe anymore. Perhaps I'll buy them.

 poppa G wrote:
Due to this thread....I keep swaying! I don't know what to believe anymore. Perhaps I'll buy them.

Green stuff and conversion!

They have their place in the army, provided you know what to do with them, they certainly aren't as easy-to-use as the other units in the army, I'd say try and build a list you think they can fit in well, and have some sorta tactic to go with it before buying those expensive models.

 Sasori wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
As soon as a FO thread dies it makes it's rp roll and another onepops back up. This topic is seriously unkillable in a necron sort of way.

I will sum up previous threads as follows. A giant 20 block of fo is a terrible idea. They don't score, and lack fearless. The key to survival of a big 20 block cc horde is to be fearless, an attached astknf ic, or be ld10 stuborn with a reroll. Ld10 non fearless will fold and get swept if it loses cc, and it's an expensive unit to lose.

A small block of 5 FO I will defend. It's cheap, expendable, and won't easily give up 1st blood if it ds or outflanks. It's not in a contested force org slot. It has 15 attacks which is enough to bully vulnerable units such as sabers, earth shaker carriages, vaul's support, unsupported fire warriors, pink horrors, lootas, the list is huge. LD10 and rp means it can tarpit durable units that are weak in cc such as a tfc, war walkers, long fangs, psyfleman dreads, broadsides, exc...

5 of them are an excellent distraction unit. 20 of them are 1 morale check from disaster.

Is the forge world rumor true? ie moved to troops, same stats, and entire unit has shred for 10 points? 20 of them with shred as troops for 270 would be another story...

It's not really a rumor, lol.

In a Dark Harvest list, Flayed ones are troops. They start at 10 man, and can purchase Flensing scarabs for the unit, for 10 points. This grants them shred on the first round of CC in the game.

Found it, not a bad list. The problem is it's a forge world army not forge world units, so it's even less likely to be tournament legal. It's not BAO legal because it's requires a separate army/it's a forge world list.

Looking at the Dark harvest it is interesting. The flensing scarabs seem especially vicious having both shred and rend at the loss of entropic. I would say the strength of flayed ones in that list is flayed ones troops + scarabs + wraiths + dlord + spyders=pure cc army. It would really throw people off, but like it said it's a forge world army so it's not legal in any GT (even BAO)

Standard codex necrons, my opinion still stands. Even as elites 5 flayed ones is a good unit that becomes less and less good as you add more flayed ones. Almost every army would be well off with 5 of them, and any army that has 5 gets less and less of a return from additional fo.

Baronyu wrote:

 poppa G wrote:
Due to this thread....I keep swaying! I don't know what to believe anymore. Perhaps I'll buy them.

Green stuff and conversion!

They have their place in the army, provided you know what to do with them, they certainly aren't as easy-to-use as the other units in the army, I'd say try and build a list you think they can fit in well, and have some sorta tactic to go with it before buying those expensive models.

I really wish I knew how to do conversion :(

 poppa G wrote:
I really wish I knew how to do conversion :(

It won't be as hard as say, converting a hatstand, a space marine's left arm and a teapot into a looted wagon. Just look for some tutorial online for making cloaks and apply them to warriors, get some spare weapon bits from friends or bits shops to convert them into those weapon-hands(chop fingers/gauss rifle off, stick blades where fingers/hand should be), and you'd probably be able to get 12 flayed ones by spending just a teensy bit more than an official box.

Baronyu wrote:

 poppa G wrote:
I really wish I knew how to do conversion :(

It won't be as hard as say, converting a hatstand, a space marine's left arm and a teapot into a looted wagon. Just look for some tutorial online for making cloaks and apply them to warriors, get some spare weapon bits from friends or bits shops to convert them into those weapon-hands(chop fingers/gauss rifle off, stick blades where fingers/hand should be), and you'd probably be able to get 12 flayed ones by spending just a teensy bit more than an official box.

ooooo, Okay
And..what am I aloud to add? What if he wants two warscythes cos my flayed ones are just a little extra crazy??

Well, conversions won't change the unit's rules, so they won't have AP2 attacks, but sure, you can give them warscythe hands if you like!

 schadenfreude wrote:
As soon as a FO thread dies it makes it's rp roll and another onepops back up. This topic is seriously unkillable in a necron sort of way.

I will sum up previous threads as follows. A giant 20 block of fo is a terrible idea. They don't score, and lack fearless. The key to survival of a big 20 block cc horde is to be fearless, an attached astknf ic, or be ld10 stuborn with a reroll. Ld10 non fearless will fold and get swept if it loses cc, and it's an expensive unit to lose.

A small block of 5 FO I will defend. It's cheap, expendable, and won't easily give up 1st blood if it ds or outflanks. It's not in a contested force org slot. It has 15 attacks which is enough to bully vulnerable units such as sabers, earth shaker carriages, vaul's support, unsupported fire warriors, pink horrors, lootas, the list is huge. LD10 and rp means it can tarpit durable units that are weak in cc such as a tfc, war walkers, long fangs, psyfleman dreads, broadsides, exc...

5 of them are an excellent distraction unit. 20 of them are 1 morale check from disaster.

Is the forge world rumor true? ie moved to troops, same stats, and entire unit has shred for 10 points? 20 of them with shred as troops for 270 would be another story...

I recognize the utility and limited investment of the 5 man group, but my biggest problem with them has that almost never get their RP roll. When the opponent wants to make 5 guys disappear, he can generally do it with a minimal dedication of shooting. 20 guys is a whole other matter. Similar to your reservations with the 20 man getting swept, but particularly in a shooting edition where there are a lot more guns then swords out there, I'd rather have the guarunteed bullet resiliency over the once in a blue moon your opponent actually has a CC unit in their DZ they can handle Flayed Ones contingency.

I'm telling you right now, my Flayed Ones get swept about as often as a Land Raider gets one shot by a Las Cannon. Is such an extremely rare occurrence that the second some one posts that it tells me that they have never really used the unit that way or did something tragically wrong with them when they did. Of course, I have a heavy CC army, so, particularly if reserving them, it's just extremely rare for me to ever get out CCed by my opponent. That may be what effects my perception.

I do love how you said you would "sum previous threads" and then proceeded to actually "sum up your particular position in previous threads" . I remember some very salient points being made in those previous threads that do not fit your summary.

I used to use flayed ones from time to time before the new codex came out as mainly a counter attack squad. I'd have them behind the bigger blocks of warriors and run them out once combat was joined. It worked fairly well for me.
Since the new codex, however, I use Wraiths along with a couple of Ctan as my CC arm. Not a lot gets through it, and it's ripped the hell out of most armies it's gone up against.