Is there any defining ethnic traits in Space Marine Chapters? I see that White Scars look rather Mongoloid and the Space Wolves look Caucasian but what about the other chapters?
Of course, this is the far future, and the races have all mixed and traits are all over the place, but there are some outstanding traits like the ones mentioned above.
Would there be any more? How about the Primarchs? And can we say we can assign a nationality to them?
There are various regiments, and chapters which follow specific nations during specific periods.
Some just follow the general theme of a period rather than a specific nation.
There's a lot of ways to think about this, but it's likely that a lot of racial characteristics would have slowly disappeared over 40K years without any evolutionary drive to sustain them, and the level of mixing that would have occurred.
Tech level has a lot of to with this too. Even on the hottest, harshest desert planets, most colonizers would have had the clothing and shelter technology to suppress most evolutionary impetus to develop darker skin. Feral worlds might be a different story though, if they've been feral a long enough time. Remember, human evolution took much, much longer than the 38,000 year gap between now and .
But it's your game. Do whatever you please. I imagine that most armies in 40K are made of of pasty white guys because, well, have you ever looked at a picture of the 40K design team?
I think a lot of people have the instinct to paint their troops like themselves. Much like how you tend to play similar characters in an RPG that allows you to change your looks.
Remember, human evolution took much, much longer than the 38,000 year gap between now and
Theres theories out there to the effect that evolution actually happens much faster than you'd think. In addition to a slow gradual change, you get very rapid shifts punctuating long periods of relative stability.
I think a lot of people have the instinct to paint their troops like themselves. Much like how you tend to play similar characters in an RPG that allows you to change your looks.
I always, always play a black man if possible in games and gak. God knows why because I'm as pale as you can get. My IG are probably going to be brown skinned as well ~ but at least this time I tell myself it's because I have brown paint but no 'skin' coloured paint
well, remember some space marines recruit from their own chapter worlds, and depending on the planet it will ultimately reflect its original colonizers. I think most planets will have a distinct cultural or racial flair to them if they were reclaimed planets during the crusade. This would be due to their thousands of years of isolation. Let's say, if a planet was founded by a large group of people hailing originally from mongolia/russia region they would obviously have the greatest majority on said planet when colonized, Now, fast forward a few thousand years with very little new genes and you will have homogenized that entire planet to have some sort of asian racial features. Now if a chapter, such as the White Scars, exclusively recruits from that planet, then almost all of their marines will have asian features. I imagine the planets that have the most intergalactic trade and the more recently colonized planets will have a huge variety of races on them, as they have not had a chance to intermingle and homogenized, and of course, the greater traveling groups, like on Terra, will have been completely homogenized to have a little bit of every racial feature (what that may look like, I have no idea, I would just assume its not GWs ultra white interpretation)
Every world will have formed its own distinct ethnicity(s) over the 20,000 years since they were first settled. Especially if they don't get a lot of off world travelers like most marine recruiting planets would.
And since most chapters recruit from only one or two planets they will inevitably reflect the physical traits of the inhabitants, combined with the traits the geneseed gives them.
Skin color will be an odd variable because the marine body can alter the level of melanin in their skin fairly rapidly to counter increased solar radiation exposure. So if a marine chapter has many deployments in areas with lots of solar radiation they may have a darker skin color than they would have naturally.
The geneseed of chapters can also make certain changes to a chapters physical appearance. The Raven Guard geneseed makes them extremely pale and causes their hair and eyes darken considerably. I also think the Carcharodons exhibit strange alterations in their appearance. I think their skin goes geryish and their eyes go completely black. There are probably more but they are ones i can think of off the top of my head.
Skin color will be an odd variable because the marine body can alter the level of melanin in their skin fairly rapidly to counter increased solar radiation exposure. So if a marine chapter has many deployments in areas with lots of solar radiation they may have a darker skin color than they would have naturally.
If a chapter is fleet based it will generally recruit from many different worlds. The only thing you need to have to be recruited is the right genes to become a Astartes. Colour doesn't come into it, so many chapters could be quite diverse.
The Salamanders are ebon-skinned. As in, blacker than the blackest black times infinity. They're not a Chapter of what we would consider blacks in the 21st century. They're, literally, black. With red eyes.
Their black skin is also as a result of a geneseed mutation and its reaction to the radiation on Nocturne. The native population is actually white, paler than the most reclusive nerd.
Psienesis wrote: The Salamanders are ebon-skinned. As in, blacker than the blackest black times infinity. They're not a Chapter of what we would consider blacks in the 21st century. They're, literally, black. With red eyes.
Amusingly enough, they were originally black, like African. At some point I guess GW was worried about issues of ethnicity, and changed them to be literally black. Seems kinda silly to worry about.
Psienesis wrote: The Salamanders are ebon-skinned. As in, blacker than the blackest black times infinity. They're not a Chapter of what we would consider blacks in the 21st century. They're, literally, black. With red eyes.
Amusingly enough, they were originally black, like African. At some point I guess GW was worried about issues of ethnicity, and changed them to be literally black. Seems kinda silly to worry about.
Allegedly Rick Priestly originally intended them to be BLACK, but the Eavy Metal department misinterpreted it as African and the recent 'retcon' was to return things to the way they were originally meant to be.
LOL. Because GW is this gigantic impersonal operation, and somehow the idea went from concept to publication without Rick looking at the early models and saying "Wait..."
Veteran Sergeant wrote: LOL. Because GW is this gigantic impersonal operation, and somehow the idea went from concept to publication without Rick looking at the early models and saying "Wait..."
Pretty much GW's Standard Operating Procedure.
Don't forget this was during the era when GW decided that all Orcs/Orks are always green.
Then someone pointed out the Citadel Colour range contained a paint named Orc Brown..
I always liked salamanders being black dudes, but being black black is pretty bad-ass too.
I don't have many unhelmeted marines in my ultramarine orce, and any who are are white, but that is more due to a lack on brown paints than anything.
The fluff doesn't tend to mention ethnicity, but many chapters have geneseed deficiancys which alter thier appearence. Salamanders are super black, while Raven Guard become almost pure white over time.
Just paint them as you like, (although marine scout heads look like white dudes on steroids, imo), the bald marine sgt heads work just as well as black guys, or any other colour for that matter.
Psienesis wrote: The Salamanders are ebon-skinned. As in, blacker than the blackest black times infinity. They're not a Chapter of what we would consider blacks in the 21st century. They're, literally, black. With red eyes.
That is a relatively recent development.
Read Index Astartes. They didn't suffer from some fething "genetic defect" that gave them ebon skin and red eyes.
Pretty much what everyone else has said. In a universe covered in violent aliens eating planets and daemons wanting to eat your soul worrying about ethnicity isn't really a thing. A human is a human. Now, economic status is something else entirely.
As for the ethnicity of Space Marine chapters as has been stated the geneseed pretty well determines that. What starts out as a recruit usually bares little resemblance to the finished product. They take on many of the physical and personality traits of their founding primarch.
Personally, I don't care if people give their SM some ethnic traits, as we understand them here in M3. If you want Asian SM, Black SM, Bolivian SM... go right ahead. It's a big galaxy and there's a whole lotta different kinds of humans.
Humanity has changed a lot in the last 38,000 year.
There weren't any white folk 38,000 years ago.
'Ethnic diversity' has happened in this time.
To say there wouldn't be any further blending in another 38,000 years hence is at best shortsighted and at worst, wrong.
There wasn't any WRITTEN language. There were spoken languages, but nothing laid down and codified because the mainly nomadic cultures didn't need it.
The Grumpy Eldar wrote: Isn't is kinda random? Like the Crimson Fists seem to be a bit hispanic if you guess from the names.
Well, there are two ways to answer that:
1. The original colonists of Rynn's World were all of primarily Hispanic descent. Thus even if they are now no longer completely Hispanic the last names remain.
2. Games Workshop wanted to make them Hispanic. The same way the Grey Knights are all members of the Spanish Inquisition and the Ultramarines are Romans.
One of th things about 40k is that race is a xenobiological thing. Humans are simply humans. Humans with black skin are still humans.
Have black SM. just don't put any emphasis on it and for god's sake don't pretend that you're better than anyone else because some of your toy soldiers have brown skin.
I think Crimea was settled by either the Huns or the Mongols. Or one of the other many nomadic tribes from the Asian steppes who had a very similar culture.
The White Scars were meant to evoke the imagery and feel of nomadic horse warriors of the Mongolian, Hun, Tatar, etc persuasion.
Grey Templar wrote: I think Crimea was settled by either the Huns or the Mongols. Or one of the other many nomadic tribes from the Asian steppes who had a very similar culture.
The White Scars were meant to evoke the imagery and feel of nomadic horse warriors of the Mongolian, Hun, Tatar, etc persuasion.
Crimea is basically step people.
The only reason gengis khan is called khan is because that is how western history remembers him as a khan. This tenuous link is the only from the white scars to the Mongols.
Scars like raids with extreme prejudice. Neither the Huns nor the Mongols fought raids. They fought full blown wars. The fact that the steppe encourages horse mounted warfare is irrelevant.
Crimeans were a settled nomadic people who were into skirmishes rather than wars.
Although not "Space Marine", I've always enjoyed the combination of both black and white people in the Catachan Jungle Fighters. As the Catachans are part of the inspiration for my own homebrew IG force, I plan on doing the same.
It would not be a stretch at all to have a Space Marine chapter from such a diverse skin-color world and have both black and white Space Marines. In fact, I'd personally find it to be a nice touch to a custom chapter, especially with the painting opportunities involved.
The White Scars are probably based on the legends of what some of those mounted warrior cultures did, rather than a single one of them. The mongols might not have raided as we think of it, but they could move from battle to battle extremely fast. And when led by fine generals such as Subutai they could do amazing things, such as defeting both Hungary and Poland in battles 500 km apart on two consecutive days.
A space marine can be of any race, but a chapter tend's to be generally of the same race, as they recruit from the native resident's of local world's, who over time would begin to look more similar than diversified.
IF you had a chapter who were fleet based, and recruited from world's they passed by, then you would likely find a huvge variety of ethnicities within their ranks.
Curiously though, I wonder if the geneseed would alter the racial qualities in any meaningfull way of potential recruit's. I know from the books that those who received horus's geneseed had a tendency to look like him post-transformation into a space marine. As skin tone and ethnicity is generally speaking, a purely asthetic thing too, i'm curious to know if that would change also. I mean, it happens with the salamander's technically, though they are their own ethnicity that doesn't exist in our world, with coalblack skin and red eyes and all.
Personally, I prefer the new Salamanders explanation for skin tone. It gives a sense of ambiguity that, IMHO, doesn't make people feel wedged into painting African guys just for fluff's sake or to avoid being accused of racism. Now I'm not saying this because I don't like African people, or any ethnicity (Because nothing could be further from the truth), but because people tend to think of their models (or characters etc. in the context of games etc.) as an extension of themselves or their ancestors, like 'I wish I was a 7ft, superhuman Space Marine'. If I'm painting Salamanders, or playing Skyrim say, I don't want to play as a African guy or an Asian guy etc, not because I don't like them, but because I'm not African or Asian and I want to feel part of the game, as if it's really me there.
I think, in a way this can be said of GW's own models, as I have seen complaints that GW only produce Caucasian heads - but again, the original designers were White British and hence when they designed the game the were probably putting thinking of themselves as Space Marines - not some distant guy in Ethiopia, Jordan or Indonesia. In addition to this, it's probably easier to use one mold across the board and adapt it, than try to produce numerous molds to suit different ethnicities, hence the standardisation of caucasian.
However, in terms of galaxy wide ethnicity, and those chapters that haven't got a special explanation such as the Salamanders - I don't see why a planet couldn't have been colonised by a particular ethnic group (Such as White Scar's homeworld Chogoris) and that ethnic group has been isolated, in fact - I bet most Feral planets are like this. But I reckon it's far more likely that, given the mobility of the IoM's population, for civilised planets, ethnicity would be incredibly varied and in no way distinguishable compared to today's concept of ethnicity.
This is just my opinion and I certainly don't expect anybody to feel forced to agree with it.
I like to think the gene seed would influence what the space marine eventually looks like I'm sure the salamanders books mentioned something about that. I think the original da would be pale skinned with caliban being covered with dark forests and this would be the cause with new recruits from other worlds as the gene seed altered them.
Ethnicity has nothing to do with skin colour. Skin colour and other physical qualities are determined by race. Ethnicity is concerned with nationality, culture, ancestry, language and beliefs.
In those terms every Chapter represents a unique ethnicity.
In racial terms the Earth has undergone dramatic changes by the time of the 41st Millennium and so it is unlikely that any modern day race exists on Holy Terra. Whilst they have been reduced to mythic descriptors there is also the factor of the Stone Men and Golden Men to take into account whereby one seems to have been a new kind of human; at least that is the implication.
As for other worlds it should be noted that white european skin may have existed for as little as 5500 years due to the advent of farming and the lack of Vitamin D which was more readily available through the hunter gatherer diet of fish and meat.
It is likely that despite white or black skin no human in 40K is of european or african descent.
Automatically Appended Next Post: More likely these racial qualities are only similar to modern day equivilants.
Many factors determine race and is quite obvious that 40,000 years of adaptation to new environments will have caused many new races to appear and in some cases has produced new species such as ratlings, ogryns and even the scalies from Necromunda.
Gogsnik wrote:It is likely that despite white or black skin no human in 40K is of european or african descent.
Whilst I agree with the rest of your statement, could I point out that from a scientific standpoint the above quote cannot be the case. Possibly it's the way in which I'm interpreting your post, but due to the simple fact that all human life originated within Africa, then migrating to areas such as Europe, and then migrating off-world, I think it's pretty accurate to say that all humans in 40K were descendant definitely from 'Africans' (loosely applied as the concept of 'African' as a racial grouping is relatively modern in terms of the history of modern humanity - some 200,000 years) and a great deal from Europeans. Regardless of the adaptations humanity gains, whether from a Earth perspective or from a galaxy perspective, we are all descendant from one original group of humans.
And it would be presumptuous to think that at the time of mankind spreading out among the starts that none of the colonists came from Europe or Africa.
I would guess colonists came from whatever the most developed nations were at the time. And since we have no info about the state of the Earth between M3 and M10 we cannot say anything with certainty beyond people came from there.
A million worlds or whatever it is allows any existing racial type to exist plus countless others.
There could be races that have light brown skin and pink hair, or look like east asians but completely black or completely white (as in paper white).
40k originated in the UK so by convention the models are shown as looking like white people and are often painted as such.
Anything goes really but it may be that certain chapters have certain features. It seems after tens of thousands of years that dark skinned people would be rare or non-existent on Fenris amongst the primitive tribes as the lack of sun would select against them over time.
Salamanders all turn black regardless where they are from afaik.
Receiving chapter geneseed likely normalises physical expression somewhat so that even when people come from different racial backgrounds, they end up with a particular look that is specific to their seedline while otherwise keeping their features.
Certainly the geneseed of the Luna Wolves caused many of the men to take on the features of Horus, such likely exists amongst the chapters too.
I was kind of surprised with the official route that was taken with the Salamanders, and know of at least one person who completely ignored the whole red-eye thing and continued to paint them as 'African black'. Computer games have for years given the opportunity for the player to create a black character as their protagonist.. and there must be black players of 40k who have wished to be able to have a marine chapter that represented their own ethnicity. I'm not quite sure why GW doesn't seem to be representative of any of their games (and why they must assume that all of their players must come from middle-class, white-Caucasian backgrounds?)
As was mentioned above me, the Crimson Fists would have made an ideal candidate for a Latin-style ethnicity for the same reason. But, it seemed while the GW of the late 80's might have been prepared to be inclusive to this kind of thing, modern GW has made sure that Pedro Kantor's helmet is firmly locked in place which I think again is a shame.
Although in any case TBH I don't think it's something that anyone would have a problem with whichever route was chosen. All of my Pre-Heresy World Eater characters are named from Eastern European sources and have a kind of Slavic ethnicity - I'd made up the background as them being recruited from a kind of feral, barbarian-ruled deathworld of snow filled forests and having carried that culture into the legion (something you can imagine translating into the World Eater character perfectly). Sadly, the official background seems to carry no such slant to it however.
I think that the creators gave some legions distinct cultural identities, such as the SW being Scandinavian Vikings, BA having some Italian names, Ultramarines=Romans, and the White Scars being nomadic steppe warriors (as already discussed). I won't go into the Salamanders because you guys have covered it extensively. I like to think that they did it to give some flavor to the millions of SM out there instead of them all being bland Romanesque names. As many people have stated, the cultures and climate that SM recruits come from and the geneseed will directly influence their appearance and customs.
Grey Templar wrote: I think Crimea was settled by either the Huns or the Mongols. Or one of the other many nomadic tribes from the Asian steppes who had a very similar culture.
The White Scars were meant to evoke the imagery and feel of nomadic horse warriors of the Mongolian, Hun, Tatar, etc persuasion.
Crimea is basically step people.
The only reason gengis khan is called khan is because that is how western history remembers him as a khan. This tenuous link is the only from the white scars to the Mongols.
Scars like raids with extreme prejudice. Neither the Huns nor the Mongols fought raids. They fought full blown wars. The fact that the steppe encourages horse mounted warfare is irrelevant.
Crimeans were a settled nomadic people who were into skirmishes rather than wars.
Well, they started fighting full-scale wars when Temujin (Genghis Khan) finally united the clans. Prior to that, they constantly raided one another and led excursions into China. I'm not trying to nitpick or anything, since you make sense when you say the WS are based off all of the nomadic steppe warriors instead of just the Mongolians, like I initially thought,
I think BA are supposed to be more renaissance painters and the like (To reflect their artisan nature)
Some chapters/regiments don't have a nationality but more of a time period...
As was mentioned above me, the Crimson Fists would have made an ideal candidate for a Latin-style ethnicity for the same reason. But, it seemed while the GW of the late 80's might have been prepared to be inclusive to this kind of thing, modern GW has made sure that Pedro Kantor's helmet is firmly locked in place which I think again is a shame.
As every sensible marine will do.
Every one of my chapter's marines keeps his helmet on in battle. Glad to see my favorite studio chapter does the same.
Warpig1815 531201 5712354 f550f56d6407f37a69ff024603630af4 wrote:
Possibly it's the way in which I'm interpreting your post...<snip>
It goes without saying that all human life in 40K originated on Earth and is therefore 'descended' from the same primordial goo from which sprang all the species of the Earth.
My main point was that modern racial characteristics have existed for less time than from now to the 41st Millennium and that those racial qualities as brought about through adaptation will not have magically ceased in 40K.
It would be entirely possible for 'black' 40K characters to be descended from 'white' Earth colonists and vice versa depending on the nature of the world they live on.
It would even be feasible for worlds colonised or settled during or after the Great Crusade to be home to racial groups quite dissimilar to those that settled them only several thousand years previously.
@Gogsnik - Ah, I see what you're getting at . Yeah, your perfectly right as evolution to the environment will have taken it's course - hence black people can legitamitely turn white (Let's face it, it happened on Earth) and vice versa.
Insane Smile wrote:This went from sm in general to black people. This is a good thread.
Dare I say, that's a bit of an inane post. The only reason black people are involved in this is because the thread is exploring all types of ethnicity and race in response to the OP's question. The Salamanders being retconned includes the common interpretation of them being portrayed as the African/Black ethnicity, hence why they are being included. But the thread is in no way limited just to black people, you may want to read the comments below and above yours as they explore numerous ethnicities relating to various chapters.
Pacific wrote:Computer games have for years given the opportunity for the player to create a black character as their protagonist
Surely though, that's the ambiguity that GW has built into the fluff enables you to do the same with your marines - You can paint them any which way you like, from any ethnic background as the gene-seed is the only factor that creates their distinct look. As for GW not being representative, I can sympathise with people wanting to be represented by the hobby they are participating in, but if GW were to represent every single race or ethnicity then it would exclude people who want to paint a particular chapter as an extension of themselves, to immerse themselves in the hobby, because the fluff is bound to a single ethnic type.
However, all said - forget the fluff, forget the ethnic origins - In 40K, anything goes because you're the one in charge of your hobby.
Computer games have for years given the opportunity for the player to create a black character as their protagonist
Not really. Usually it's just "caucasian features with dark skin". It is very rare to see a game that lets you play as someone who has a strong African heritage.
Computer games have for years given the opportunity for the player to create a black character as their protagonist
Not really. Usually it's just "caucasian features with dark skin". It is very rare to see a game that lets you play as someone who has a strong African heritage.
Well I suppose it's a sliding scale.. computer games have moved more towards greater representation. Still not perfect by any means, but the situation is vastly different now to how it was even 10 years ago (although, admittedly that had a lot to do with the technology previously, and for some time it was hard enough even making something like like a human being, let alone any further detail!)
As was mentioned above me, the Crimson Fists would have made an ideal candidate for a Latin-style ethnicity for the same reason. But, it seemed while the GW of the late 80's might have been prepared to be inclusive to this kind of thing, modern GW has made sure that Pedro Kantor's helmet is firmly locked in place which I think again is a shame.
As every sensible marine will do.
Every one of my chapter's marines keeps his helmet on in battle. Glad to see my favorite studio chapter does the same.
I wouldn't think it racist if GW came out with a SM chapter or regiment of IG that was clearly African-like people and features. Its nice to see diversity in the universe, and though I'm sure all these races and backgrounds have mixed, its still a step in the right direction IMHO.
Computer games have for years given the opportunity for the player to create a black character as their protagonist
Not really. Usually it's just "caucasian features with dark skin". It is very rare to see a game that lets you play as someone who has a strong African heritage.
i'm a white guy and try and paint my figs in different races, generally painting their skin a kind of generic light brown - tanned flesh.
some i paint as black people, some as pasty white folk like myself.
firstly, because i like the challenge, second because GW is pretty monocultured and needs some variety, and thirdly because my kids are mixed-race and i understand that minority ethnic kids in england can easily grow up feeling subconsciously excluded by things that don't seem inclusive to them by lack of obvious representation. daddy's hobby isn't painting white people, it's painting people. i don't blame the GW people for never seeming to have genuine non-white characters, they're all white and almost certainly never think of it. its more of an issue for me, iyswim!
I think Marine Sgt and caprain heads are generally ambiguous enough to be black or white dudes.
i also think GW avoid making one spacific black/ asaan charcter to avoid accusations of racism. Imagine if they they had just 1 black guy in the whole of the 40k universe. it owuld probably come across as more patronising than having none!
a way round this would be to paint some miniatures with ambiguous features to be black/ aisian whatever colour dudes, like i believe they used to do with catatcan, and stick them in the codex. dont draw atention, as if they are special becuase they are black, just have them in as if they are just like the rest of the army,
In all my imperial armies I have a mix of ethnicities, because I like to try different painting techniques for flesh, so making them different ethnicities means the different paint styles aren't as noticeable, plus it seems weird to me to have any one ethnicity. I've never really been anywhere that was like that. Its always been a mix.
I just remembered, the Librarian, whose name escapes me now, from Dawn of War 2 Retribution, looks like a black guy. So they have done some diversity, but I feel it should be on a broader scale.
Though that was not GW but Relic, who existed in an industry that has been under increasing pressure in recent years with how it relates to, and reacts to, gender and ethnic stereotyping.
Psienesis wrote: Though that was not GW but Relic, who existed in an industry that has been under increasing pressure in recent years with how it relates to, and reacts to, gender and ethnic stereotyping.
As repeated earlier, it all depends on the the person painting the army, and of course there would be many different planets and peoples of different color, from the whitest white to the darkest brown.
Also, to clarify, as I hate to read this kind of msg over and over when the planet Nocturne is brought up, the normal populace are darker skinned, the whiter people of the planet are the ones who settled themselves in the caves and underground passages of Nocturne. The main character from the Salamander novels is one such individual.
There is no way GW could ever hope to satisfy the peculiar ethnic desires of the fanbase. It makes sense to have a standard look as this makes collecting an army easier - you really don't want to have every sergeant being chinese looking and every captain being something else - it would look contrived. Better to leave that sort of local flavour to third party manufacturers.
About the marines though, what should they look like? Assuming a base marine that looks like a white guy, how should he be painted? The most common way is standard flesh tones showing untanned skin. Do marines spend so much time in their armour that they look like Darth Vader - palid soft skin from being in a protected suit most of the time plus they spend most of their life on board a ship going from fight to fight. Or should they be tanned to show years of exposure to varying planets with hard cracked skin?
cadbren wrote: There is no way GW could ever hope to satisfy the peculiar ethnic desires of the fanbase. It makes sense to have a standard look as this makes collecting an army easier - you really don't want to have every sergeant being chinese looking and every captain being something else - it would look contrived. Better to leave that sort of local flavour to third party manufacturers.
About the marines though, what should they look like? Assuming a base marine that looks like a white guy, how should he be painted? The most common way is standard flesh tones showing untanned skin. Do marines spend so much time in their armour that they look like Darth Vader - palid soft skin from being in a protected suit most of the time plus they spend most of their life on board a ship going from fight to fight. Or should they be tanned to show years of exposure to varying planets with hard cracked skin?
I can definitely stand by this, the whole third party manufactures and leaving it up to the hobbyist. I can assume that Marines are kinda tan, remembering that most of them graduate from Scouts to full Marines, and Scouts don't actually use helmets. In that time, their skin could have gotten fairly tanned. And it also depends on where they train. Idk, that's just my opinion on that matter.
In the end, however, barring mutations a Space Marine's skin color is dependent on the environment which they are in, because of a certain genetic implant that they have.
I refer to facial features to represent ethnicity, rather than skin color. In modern art classes for Western countries (I'm not sure how it's done elsehwere), a white person's face is the "Default", and they don't teach you how to draw/paint/sculpt/etc the faces of other ethnic groups. A person who draws an accurate African-ethnic will often be told that the face is wrongly proportioned, even though it's entirely accurate, simply because it's not "white" enough.
Melissia wrote: Tans can and do go away if you don't maintain it.
In the end, however, barring mutations a Space Marine's skin color is dependent on the environment which they are in, because of a certain genetic implant that they have.
I refer to facial features to represent ethnicity, rather than skin color. In modern art classes for Western countries (I'm not sure how it's done elsehwere), a white person's face is the "Default", and they don't teach you how to draw/paint/sculpt/etc the faces of other ethnic groups. A person who draws an accurate African-ethnic will often be told that the face is wrongly proportioned, even though it's entirely accurate, simply because it's not "white" enough.
A sufficiently skilled painter should be able to approximate different ethnicities by altering the highlights on the models to emphasize different facial features; even if you don't feel like you're up to the challenge, you could probably make Caucasian-sculpted GW miniatures pass for non-"white" ethnicities that are close to "white" in facial structure (Some Arabs and Turks, for instance). There's also the fact that there's a lot of variety available within "white" people; if you don't feel like painting/writing fluff for "generic white people" because that's boring try taking a map of Europe, picking a random spot, and reading up on the history and the culture there. I guarantee you'll find something more interesting than "generic white people".
This also goes for the Eldar, by the way; just because Tolkein and GW write about pasty-white elves doesn't mean yours have to look like that (see the Drow from most D&D settings, depictions of the Valenar that actually take into consideration what desert-dwelling nomads would look like from Eberron, and Tuvok the black Vulcan if you can stomach Star Trek: Voyager).
Tans can go away, it's also possible that constant exposure to recycled air and artificial environments could also do something like hardening the skin so that it's not as pink as it would normally be.
They could also be more tattooed than we normally see them.
Some people give their scouts face paint, but I've very seldom seen it on a full marine.
I think chaos marauder heads would make excellent marine heads. The current lot are too boy scout looking, while some chapters are like that there would be others that looked more like a biker gang - I'm not counting Space Wolves because I think the hair of them is overdone on the minis.
Warpig1815 wrote: Personally, I prefer the new Salamanders explanation for skin tone. It gives a sense of ambiguity that, IMHO, doesn't make people feel wedged into painting African guys just for fluff's sake or to avoid being accused of racism. Now I'm not saying this because I don't like African people, or any ethnicity (Because nothing could be further from the truth), but because people tend to think of their models (or characters etc. in the context of games etc.) as an extension of themselves or their ancestors, like 'I wish I was a 7ft, superhuman Space Marine'. If I'm painting Salamanders, or playing Skyrim say, I don't want to play as a African guy or an Asian guy etc, not because I don't like them, but because I'm not African or Asian and I want to feel part of the game, as if it's really me there.
I think, in a way this can be said of GW's own models, as I have seen complaints that GW only produce Caucasian heads - but again, the original designers were White British and hence when they designed the game the were probably putting thinking of themselves as Space Marines - not some distant guy in Ethiopia, Jordan or Indonesia. In addition to this, it's probably easier to use one mold across the board and adapt it, than try to produce numerous molds to suit different ethnicities, hence the standardisation of caucasian.
However, in terms of galaxy wide ethnicity, and those chapters that haven't got a special explanation such as the Salamanders - I don't see why a planet couldn't have been colonised by a particular ethnic group (Such as White Scar's homeworld Chogoris) and that ethnic group has been isolated, in fact - I bet most Feral planets are like this. But I reckon it's far more likely that, given the mobility of the IoM's population, for civilised planets, ethnicity would be incredibly varied and in no way distinguishable compared to today's concept of ethnicity.
This is just my opinion and I certainly don't expect anybody to feel forced to agree with it.
...So people who play Tyranids, Daemons, and Necrons feel as if they're Dinobugs, Demonic lovecraftian entities, and mummy robots trapped in a human body?
Warpig1815 wrote: But I reckon it's far more likely that, given the mobility of the IoM's population, for civilised planets, ethnicity would be incredibly varied and in no way distinguishable compared to today's concept of ethnicity.
Have to disagree here. I think you overestimate the amount of off world travel the average person does. Given the danger of the warp, most travel would be essential reasons only such as pilgrimage, war and trade. Outside of the immediate areas that these people go to, the wider community would be untouched by such outsiders. You are far more likely to have local ethnic groups based on what hive level you live on than people from off world.
Billions of people literally living on top of each other where class seems to be important so not much mixing between the levels will see local variations appear. If there is a particular look that is considered more attractive then those people will be concentrated at the top of the hives as wealthy people seek out partners that look a certain way.
It may be that the lower hives are dominated by albino types with large eyes as they can survive without any contact with the sun and in lower light environments.
Warpig1815 wrote: Personally, I prefer the new Salamanders explanation for skin tone. It gives a sense of ambiguity that, IMHO, doesn't make people feel wedged into painting African guys just for fluff's sake or to avoid being accused of racism. Now I'm not saying this because I don't like African people, or any ethnicity (Because nothing could be further from the truth), but because people tend to think of their models (or characters etc. in the context of games etc.) as an extension of themselves or their ancestors, like 'I wish I was a 7ft, superhuman Space Marine'. If I'm painting Salamanders, or playing Skyrim say, I don't want to play as a African guy or an Asian guy etc, not because I don't like them, but because I'm not African or Asian and I want to feel part of the game, as if it's really me there.
Well this is quite a strange way to look at things. You may not be black, but you probably are not seven foot tall either. Why it is possible to identify with one of these traits but not the other? And do only blue skinned people play Tau?
Or perhaps it's just that I'm mature enough of a connoisseur in literature that I can empathize with characters who are neither female nor white (IE physically resembling me), or those who contain any number of other attributes different from me?
The other thing to take account of which I should have mentioned previously is the function (or lack there of) of the Melanochrome.
A Space Marine's skin should alter rapidly to best suit his environment allowing 'black' Space Marines to appear pale or vice versa. In some chapters this cuases permanent pigmentation change whuch is not to mention the fact that the Astartes often come to resemble their Primarch quite closely.
These factors would go a long way to deminish or even eliminate any racial physical characteristics an Astartes had before the implantation process.
Assuming that the Melanochrome functions properly would an Astartes have a base skin colour from his race or his Primarch? If, as I mentioned earlier, humans all had dark skin before farming would an Astartes with a diet rich in Vitamin D who went on to have dark skin due to the melanochrome compensating for the environment retain that dark skin, as it better protects, or would it revert to type?
So I just counted. Out of my nine helmetless marines seven have white skin and two have black. This is mainly because pale skin offers better contrast to their dark red armour. I'm sure that on marines with white or yellow armour darker skin would look better than pale skin for similar reasons.
Well this is quite a strange way to look at things. You may not be black, but you probably are not seven foot tall either. Why it is possible to identify with one of these traits but not the other? And do only blue skinned people play Tau?
It is normal for people to create art that looks like themselves than some other people. You go to Africa and local crafts show people that look black, you go to China and local dolls look Chinese. It's only in western countries that there is this obsession with having to show every group on earth.
If any of you have heard of playmobil, I have seen (generally American) collectors of that toy moaning about the lack of ethnic diversity. This for a toy that has no nose or ears and dots for eyes.
Political Correctness is complete bs and causes THE dumbest discussions to take place. The faces are what, 4mm high? Stop getting worked up over something you can't even see from a couple of metres away.
I love how this thread has kept its civility during discussion. Good stuff, ladies gentlemen.
What certain Space Marine chapters could you say that resemble certain cultures or nationalities of our current time. Besides the Wolves and White Scars, who I feel have a rather potent resemblance to certain groups of people in ancient history.
Writers put themselves into things its human nature, I don't see the racism anymore than the ancient Ethiopian pictures that portrayed Jesus with African features, those in Denmark Europe where he had Norse features, those in the orient where he had oriental features, and those in the Mediterranean done by Greeks and Phoenicians that are probably the most realistic.
I didn't read through the entire thread so this has probably been said, but I know there is at least some Racial/Religious overtones to the entirety of 40k, as far as Marines are considered, this is what I know and it could all be covered or all be wrong, but here it is anyway.
Imperial Fists -- Eastern European (Prussians etc)/Italian/Spanish
Dark Angels -- I don't remember why but I have always heard that Lion'El is equated as being the "Jewish Primarch".
Ultramarines -- Romans
Black Templars -- English Crusaders
White Scars -- Mongolians/Asians
Salamanders -- African (Yes they are obsidian black with red eyes, I know)
So yes there are many racial/cultural/religious/ethnic overtones in 40k.
Brokksamson wrote: I didn't read through the entire thread so this has probably been said, but I know there is at least some Racial/Religious overtones to the entirety of 40k, as far as Marines are considered, this is what I know and it could all be covered or all be wrong, but here it is anyway.
Imperial Fists -- Eastern European (Prussians etc)/Italian/Spanish
Dark Angels -- I don't remember why but I have always heard that Lion'El is equated as being the "Jewish Primarch".
Ultramarines -- Romans
Black Templars -- English Crusaders
White Scars -- Mongolians/Asians
Salamanders -- African (Yes they are obsidian black with red eyes, I know)
So yes there are many racial/cultural/religious/ethnic overtones in 40k.
I'm confused as to how you are making these conclusions. There is not a single person in Africa with skin as black as a space marine salamander. Also, where do you get Ultramarines being Roman? I've seen a few captain helmets that have adornments that may look Roman, but I don't think you can define the entire chapter as such.
Brokksamson wrote: I didn't read through the entire thread so this has probably been said, but I know there is at least some Racial/Religious overtones to the entirety of 40k, as far as Marines are considered, this is what I know and it could all be covered or all be wrong, but here it is anyway.
Imperial Fists -- Eastern European (Prussians etc)/Italian/Spanish
Dark Angels -- I don't remember why but I have always heard that Lion'El is equated as being the "Jewish Primarch".
Ultramarines -- Romans
Black Templars -- English Crusaders
White Scars -- Mongolians/Asians
Salamanders -- African (Yes they are obsidian black with red eyes, I know)
So yes there are many racial/cultural/religious/ethnic overtones in 40k.
I don't see Lion as a Jewish kind of guy. He strikes me as an English Medieval, possibly French knight.
I know it is called out somewhere that Imperial Fists take a lot of their history from "Prussian Junkers", a lot of their names, Sigismund is an italian/roman name, there are also a lot of other Roman/Spanish names throughout heroes of the Imperial Fists.
White Scars -- Jaghatai Khan? Definitely a reference to Mongolians there, and they all seem to have that asian look about them.
Black Templars -- I don't know that this needs much explanation to be said that they are English Crusader types. Or at least act like it, after all they are 2nd founding Fists.
Ultras -- They wear a lot of Roman esque gear, the tabards and long tassle ropes, lots of helmet "combs" and very ornate armor as a general statement, seems a bit Roman influenced to me. I believe the history of Macragge is also somewhat Roman sounding, Roboute pacified a massive group of barbarians in the north? Ruled by Consuls and Aristocrats with massive plush houses and servants, a large senate.
Dark Angels -- I honestly don't remember where I heard it, probably on a Forum and I just found it funny.
Salamanders -- Well... They certainly aren't white, and they are dark skinned, whether or not it was meant that they are "black" or not, I don't know that it really matters haha.
Don't know if it's been brought up in this thread, but Space Marines have photochromatic skin (impossibly pale in low-light conditions, pitch black in direct sunlight) and massively warped physiologies: they have no ethnicity; any genetic traits common on their homeworld are all but buried beneath the mutation they suffer as a matter of turning them into Space Marines.
Of course, they're rarely written as so alien as the core fluff would have them, but it's not like the black library has anyone of particular competence aside from Abnett.
cadbren wrote:Have to disagree here. I think you overestimate the amount of off world travel the average person does.
Quite possibly I am over estimating it, but I'm referring more to initial colonisations, and the settling of Imperial guard regiments than I am to the average person travelling around. I could have been more clear on that I reckon.
Crimson wrote:Well this is quite a strange way to look at things. You may not be black, but you probably are not seven foot tall either. Why it is possible to identify with one of these traits but not the other? And do only blue skinned people play Tau?
I suppose, but what I was trying to get at is that it is the personal connection to the idea. It's not so much the '7ft Space Marine' part, but rather the 'I' part. If you are black, asian, white etc., you are probably more likely to want to paint them as your ethnicity as it's the personal connection. The Space Marine part is less relevant as it is a part of the connection that is completely unattainable. However, this thread was about ethnicity within Space Marines - humans and how diverse ethnicity is. Tau, as far as I can see, do not come into this as I would imagine people would choose to paint Tau based on other reasons other than personal identification.
ZSO, SAHAAL wrote:Writers put themselves into things its human nature, I don't see the racism anymore than the ancient Ethiopian pictures that portrayed Jesus with African features, those in Denmark Europe where he had Norse features, those in the orient where he had oriental features, and those in the Mediterranean done by Greeks and Phoenicians that are probably the most realistic.
This is essentially what I was trying to get across, apologies to all who were confused by my point. :(
Melissia wrote:Or perhaps it's just that I'm mature enough of a connoisseur in literature that I can empathize with characters who are neither female nor white (IE physically resembling me), or those who contain any number of other attributes different from me?
It's not that I cannot empathise with them, I was just trying to get across that because ethnicity is such a personal idea to people, they are probably more likely to identify and create characters/models based on themselves, than people of other ethnicities. The choice of a space marine was probably a bad example, but I feel I've explained myself above.
However, that said, I don't understand how my expression of an opposing opinion makes me less 'mature' than you as I was only expressing an opinion with the intent of a scholarly debate, not the intention to rile tempers! How 'mature' is it to deplore someone else's opinion from behind a computer screen (Which isn't the most conducive of communication methods in the world), and across the expanse of the Atlantic Ocean, basing your own opinion of them on your interpretation of their words, instead of first asking for clarification ? (Which I would be more than happy to provide) And how is that you being a self-confessed connoisseur of literature means that you are more mature than I? For all you know I could too be a connoisseur of literature, let's face it, my nation is the home of many famous works of literature which I'm sure even your nation will have heard of...
For all that though, it matters little as the thread is not about that, and I have no will to lose civility as both you and I have participated in the same threads before with no ill-will, and I wouldn't wish for this thread to descend into allegations of 'who's more mature than who'.
White Scars have certainly used the story of Ghengis Khan for their background material. I don't think they represent any other asian culture other than the Mongol hordes of the middle ages.
Imperial Fists are all over the place. They come from an ice planet originally called Inuit. The Inuit being another name for Eskimos. That seems to be the only reference to that culture though, but the Fists don't seem to have a clear culture from earth's past or present.
Black Templars. If a culture should be ascribed to them it's Germanic knights. They have German names and their colours are the reverse of the Teutonic Order. There is also the Knights of St John who are still around and operate ambulances so it could be a blend of the two.
Ultramarines are an obvious blend of ancient Greek and Roman with a bit of Scottish thrown in for flavour.
I would imagine that so far into the future, many races would have inter-bred and there would generally all have about the same skin tone. I may be wrong, but I assume that everybody would probably look about the same, and it probably wouldn't be white, it would be some kind of brown skinned/dark haired conglomeration. And as far as I know, the only black skinned people are Salamanders, and thats not even due to melanin...
Just out of curiosity, how do you get ROMAN ethnicity ???
Greek is ok (south european, balding with lot of facial hair + chest hair mandatory)...pardon my sterotype...
In a short story( I don't remember which but the marine was a memeber of the Executioners Chapter) The facial features of a space marine are described as being kind of wierd with a flattened/stretched face with eyes that are pretty far apart. Basically distorted due to the inhuman growth of the skull underneath. Even thought its not really cannon i still figure no matter what the space marine looked like before now he looks like a space marine with possibley different colored skin (but not always due to being able to change skin color).
Kain wrote: And yeah there are 40k comics, but because Boom! is such a tiny company they are nearly impossible to find.
I have all of them !!! Tankred endures and all that. ...But I think talking about ethnicity isn't really fair especially when there has been so many mutations over generations...O and don't forget landscape changes, warp storms etc....
With all the volcanoes and fire lore, they really seem to have been modeled after the Polynesian peoples and should therefore be "brown"-skinned. Ash black, IMHO, is lazy and disingenuous and the red eyes are just dumb, period. Give them a real ethnic flavor not this "too lazy to paint tanned flesh, so we'll say they are black - really black; and give them red eyes so as to make them totally gonzo weird" feldercarb and give some diversity to things. Heck we already have space vikings, space germans, space romans, and space russians, lets try something else for inspiration, no one will be upset. But straight up black skin, you have got to be kidding me.
The Roman god Vulcan was the god of fire, including exploding volcanoes. The polynesians don't come into it.
The salamanders are black and red because that is the colour of lava, cooler black of solidified rock on the top, red molten rock underneath.
I've no idea about the names of the Salamanders, they could be asian or african or completely made up. Not given it much thought.
So the fact that the Polynesian peoples live on islands in the Pacific ocean, in an area known for seismic activity and hence volcanoes, which formed a large number of those islands (therefore 'volcanic islands'), would mean nothing to you?
I'll grant you that there is a wide use of Greek mythology involved, but the flavor of the army was originally intended as being Polynesian. Its just like originally the Deathwing and in fact the Dark Angels themselves were intended to have a very strong Native American vibe, however many of their names did not reflect that. So names should be considered aside from flavor.
xraytango wrote: So the fact that the Polynesian peoples live on islands in the Pacific ocean, in an area known for seismic activity and hence volcanoes, which formed a large number of those islands (therefore 'volcanic islands'), would mean nothing to you?
I'll grant you that there is a wide use of Greek mythology involved, but the flavor of the army was originally intended as being Polynesian. Its just like originally the Deathwing and in fact the Dark Angels themselves were intended to have a very strong Native American vibe, however many of their names did not reflect that. So names should be considered aside from flavor.
No, dude you're 100% right..Just refering to UM are Roman misconception, because Roman empire was gigantic and consistent from many nations...Climate is everything when we are talking about physical appearance...If you just go by the theory of ice melting and Africa being the birthplace of humanity ofc
xraytango wrote: So the fact that the Polynesian peoples live on islands in the Pacific ocean, in an area known for seismic activity and hence volcanoes, which formed a large number of those islands (therefore 'volcanic islands'), would mean nothing to you?
Correct.
Volcanic activity is also present in the Mediterranean and the name of the Salamanders Primarch is the Roman god of fire, not a Polynesian god. The word volcano comes an Italian island called Volcano which was originally named for the god.
I'll grant you that there is a wide use of Greek mythology involved, but the flavor of the army was originally intended as being Polynesian. Its just like originally the Deathwing and in fact the Dark Angels themselves were intended to have a very strong Native American vibe, however many of their names did not reflect that. So names should be considered aside from flavor.
Give evidence of this polynesian theme to the early Salamanders. I've never seen anything to suggest this is true.
Darth, thanks for agreeing, though I was addressing cadbren's remark that the Salamanders were supposed to be Greek.
IIRC, the original fluff on them said that on their planet they lived on archipelagoes, hence islands. Now there are Greek islands, but that is not what one thinks of when we think of Greece.. Volcanoes + Islands = sounds a lot like Polynesia and a darker skinned people.
I believe the back story is in Codex: Armageddon, or Chapter Approved.
Conversley, if I say, "Hawaii", or , "Tahiti"; what do you think of?
Roman, as in ancient Romans. That is what is being referred to. The Ultramarines mainly use names derived from ancient Greek and Roman names. The use of Consuls, the short swords they use are based on the Roman gladius and so on.
xraytango wrote: Darth, thanks for agreeing, though I was addressing cadbren's remark that the Salamanders were supposed to be Greek.
IIRC, the original fluff on them said that on their planet they lived on archipelagoes, hence islands. Now there are Greek islands, but that is not what one thinks of when we think of Greece..
For those of us who have studied ancient Greece, yes it is. The Aegean islands are very important to the Greek World.
In regards Volcano I had to look it up. It is part of a chain of islands off the northern coast of Sicily. It is part of the Volcanic chain that includes Mt Vesuvius to the north on the Italian mainland and Mt Etna to the south on Sicily.
Many of these places were Greek colonies that eventually got swallowed up by the Roman Empire.
Volcanoes + Islands = sounds a lot like Polynesia and a darker skinned people.
The complete absence of any polynesian names or cultural references would suggest this is not the case. The Japanese also live on an archipelago with volcanic activity.
Conversley, if I say, "Hawaii", or , "Tahiti"; what do you think of?
Polynesia, and the absence of such names from the Salamanders background tells me they were never considered to be polynesians.
Hmm, that's funny I've studied ancient Greece as well, but to me the Salamanders didn't represent that culture as well as a distinct Polynesian did.. I don't deny the connection there what with the maritime activities of the ancient Greeks, but to represent them there would be a stronger bend toward more popular subjects as the city-states, the Spartans, Phillip's Macedonian unification, and the emergence of democracy and philosophy.
As we know the writers at GW like to hodge-podge things together in their fluff, so is it really so unreasonable to think that physically Sallies could represent Polynesians yet mine the Greeks for names.
I believe that there was in fact something said at a Games Day about them representing Polynesians.
The Japanese also live on an archipelago with volcanic activity.
I mean we are talking about skin pigmentation?
The other guy was suggesting that Salamanders were Polynesians because they have dark skin and live on volcanic islands. No polynesians have black skin though and none of their culture is represented in the fluff. Polynesians speak a similar language to one another, have the same basic gods and share a practice of tattooing themselves. It wouldn't be difficult to have called the Primarch of the Salamandars Ra, it would even have fit in with Horus' name, or said they heavily tattoo themselves or given them Polynesian names. Instead their Primarch is named after the Roman god of fire and their main legion/chapter icon is fire, other than the dragon head of course and what are dragons famous for - breathing fire.
I looked at the name Nocturne. I figured it had something to do with nocturnal (relating to the night) but it actually refers to a christian prayer said at midnight by priests,monks and the like. Matins or Nocturne includes the recital of Psalm 94 (look it up yourself) which is interesting in that it has an "the Emperor Protects" feel about it.
I guess you decided not to check my citations. Denial is fun.
For instance, the Mutter museum is the museum of the "worlds strangest remains".
They have thousands of wax molds of different genetic defects and diseases that no longer exist. It is a chaos players dream come true for all things inspiring.
Just to reiterate, ethnicity is not the same as race. As an eaxample an italien and african could have still been ethnically 'Roman' despite different racial backgrounds. In that sense Ultramarines do have a Roman ethnicity although have read in White Dwarf that the Ultramarines are styled 'classically' and are neither Roman nor Greek but inspired by both.
As to the Salamanders, they all used to be blonde too back during Rogue Trader so I don't see the Polynesian link which I would have given to the Space Sharks given the tattoo styling from Forge World.
There are some curious specimens in that Mutter Museum aren't there. Chaos inspiration indeed!
I only viewed some images via Bing just to see, but was struck by one of a man whose face looked to be flattened out onto a skull like a pumpkin, a literal moon face. It would make an excellent Chaos character.
To come back on topic though it does emphasise the variability og human DNA. Multiplied across a thousand differet regions onA million worlds then you have nigh on limitless racial and ethnic trends. What Games Workshop covers is really only the merest taste but it would be impossible for half a dozen blokes in an office to cover all of the Imperium even if they were allowed to.
xraytango wrote:
So the fact that the Polynesian peoples live on islands in the Pacific ocean, in an area known for seismic activity and hence volcanoes, which formed a large number of those islands (therefore 'volcanic islands'), would mean nothing to you?
Correct.
Volcanic activity is also present in the Mediterranean and the name of the Salamanders Primarch is the Roman god of fire, not a Polynesian god. The word volcano comes an Italian island called Volcano which was originally named for the god.
xraytango wrote:I'll grant you that there is a wide use of Greek mythology involved, but the flavor of the army was originally intended as being Polynesian. Its just like originally the Deathwing and in fact the Dark Angels themselves were intended to have a very strong Native American vibe, however many of their names did not reflect that. So names should be considered aside from flavor.
Give evidence of this polynesian theme to the early Salamanders. I've never seen anything to suggest this is true.
I have to say, I'm heavily leaning on the side of the Salamanders being based on the Greek volcanic regions and not Polynesians. Much of their lore is centered around isolationism, pragmatism and stoicism - incidentally all of which are Greek philosophy. In addition to this, Salamanders are known for their intense devotion to humanity and equality for all humans - incidentally Greece is the very founding place of Democracy!
On nomenclature, the vast majority of Salamanders names I've come across have a distinctly Greek ring to them: Chaplain Elysius, (The Elysian Fields - Greek Paradise) Master of the Forge Argos (Argos - Greek City State), Persephion, a Firedrake (Male version of Persephone, Queen of the Underworld). Even Vulkan is simply the Roman rendition of the Greek God of smithing - Hephaestus. Now I'll grant names such as Dak'ir, Tu'Shan of Tsu'gan don't sound Greek - possibly they are African or Polynesian (Personally, they sound invented to me, but I'll not claim an encyclopedic knowledge of names so please correct me if otherwise).
On the subject of locations: They have a Chapter Monastary on Prometheus - ring any bells for the Greek Titan who gave fire to humanity? Included on Prometheus is the seat of the Salamanders chapter council named the 'Pantheon' - which again, is the Greek gathering of gods.The Sanctuary cities, of which I'm missing two here admittedly: Themis (Greek Titaness of law and order), Hesiod (Greek poet, major source of modern studies of Greek Mythology), Epimethus (Epimetheus - Greek Titan of Hindsight, brother of Prometheus), Clymene (Greek Titan, Mother of Atlas and Epimethus), Heliosa (Oh look - Helios is the Greek God of the Sun!) - all sound distinctly Greco-Roman.
xraytango wrote:IIRC, the original fluff on them said that on their planet they lived on archipelagoes, hence islands. Now there are Greek islands, but that is not what one thinks of when we think of Greece.. Volcanoes + Islands = sounds a lot like Polynesia and a darker skinned people.
Whaaat!?! Have you seen how many Islands are included in the nation of Greece? Wikipedia alone counts as many as 1400 independent, significant islands. Indeed many of them feature in arguably the most famous sagas of ancient literature - the Illiad and the Odyssey. In addition, Wikipedia notes that over 80% of Greece includes mountainous regions and whaddya know, fold mountains are often formed by intense seismic activity at continental crust-continental crust convergence zones, which tend to produce massive amounts of volcanic and seismic activity. I'm assuming if you've studied Greece, then you'll be aware of the eruption of Thera, which destroyed most of Crete and Knossos (Giving rise to the Atlantis myth) or you'll be familiar with the eruption of Mt Etna, so you'll also know that the Greek colony of Syracuse was very close to it, and would have witnessed quite a few of it's frequent eruptions.
You may as well have said Iceland, because that's incredibly volcanic and is an island itself. The volcanoes there are even producing new islands (Heard of Surtsey, created in the 1963 - 1967?). However, Icelandic tradition couldn't be further from the Salamanders as it's derived from the Norse who settled there on their way to America - Space Wolves!
Now, I'm not going to completely discredit you, because I'm sure GW will purloin bits and bobs of other fire related objects for the Salamanders, but I think it's reasonable to argue that the Salamanders were probably based on, or at least take a heavy, heavy lending, of Greek culture and bits of Roman (Which in turn took a heavy lend of Greek itself). And I could go on way more if that's not enough...
EDIT: I had the quotations wrong for the first quote so it looked like it was cadbren who had written it, when it was a quote within a quote - quoteception Also, just to say that it's xraytango whom I'm humbly disputing, not cadbren.
I can appreciate Greek thing, but on the other hand I've been collecting and digesting GW for 26 years, I'm pretty sure I know what I am talking about.
This is the whole of it:
Rick Priestley is an archaeologist, it is not outside of his purview to find similarities between ancient societies or use an amalgam of them as fluff for a silly game that he was one of the line developers of.
So let's settle it like this:
The people that the Sallies draw from are notionally Polynesian, however the Chapter has its traditions, which are reflected by a heavy use of Greek names and iconography.
I guess you decided not to check my citations. Denial is fun.
For instance, the Mutter museum is the museum of the "worlds strangest remains".
They have thousands of wax molds of different genetic defects and diseases that no longer exist. It is a chaos players dream come true for all things inspiring.
Individual abberant mutations are not evidence of greater genetic diversity in the past, particularly when referencing something you do not have a genetic sample of. Further your claims of hobbits and trolls appear to be exaggeration from the existence of other hominid lines that are now extinct.
Also human genetic diversity is not decreasing and the rate of its increase is used as an important marker when studying human evolution (Tishkoff & Verrelli 2003)
I guess you decided not to check my citations. Denial is fun.
For instance, the Mutter museum is the museum of the "worlds strangest remains".
They have thousands of wax molds of different genetic defects and diseases that no longer exist. It is a chaos players dream come true for all things inspiring.
Those are birth defects and other "freaks", not previous living examples of human sub-types.
What you said was:
Once upon a time Humans had striped hair, spotted hair, wildly long eyebrows, purple eyes and many other variations of pigments and genetic "flaws".
Giants and Hobbits existed in the ancient past (see National Geographic). As did trolls and ogres (see Da Vinci's grotesques).
People also had horns, eyestocks, scales, and other odd external bone growths (see Mutter Museum, Pennsylvania).
There would be a much wider range of genetics if we hadn't had events like the Black Death and WW2.
... implying that these people bred true, and that one guy with eyestalks meant that he came from an entire culture of people with eyestalks, which is a complete fabrication.
@xraytango - I'll not dispute it if you really believe that the Salamander have Polynesian themes, but IMHO, I don't think I can fully accept it until you were to give a reference for where you got the information - If you did I'd gladly support the notion. Aside from simply saying 'Rick Priestly may have used Polynesian or Greek themes', are there any concrete sources that explicitly say this? Just to cite my own posts, all the above I posted is from the latest 'Tome of Fire' trilogy and subsequent links with Greek culture is made with my own knowledge of the Greeks.
xraytango wrote:I've been collecting and digesting GW for 26 years, I'm pretty sure I know what I am talking about.
Really? Is there any need to throw this in? I wasn't disputing that you know what you're talking about, I was simply participating in a scholarly debate and presenting an opposing point of view. I haven't been into 40K for that long, I'll admit I've only really been into it for 2 years or so, but I read a lot of the lore and publications of both Black Library and Forgeworld, so I'm not a complete dullard myself - I'm just drawing conclusions from the abundance of evidence I find in the new books. It's really not a competition of 'I've been into 40K longer than you have'.
Sorry, I wasn't trying to make anyone feel as though they were a dullard, and I suppose it was a bit , okay a lot, pedantic.
I can see there being two sides of the Salamander stor because I do see the Greek influence, but I also see the similarities to many volcanic island cultures (except Iceland and Greenland, those are quite clearly Space Wolves, no doubt about that.) so I''m not going to argue it any longer.
In the end we all want to read a good story in a setting we enjoy and until the powers that be hire us to write their stories, we will undoubtedly continue to have discussions like this due to such a great deal of information that is out there that we may be aware as well as unaware of. (wow that's a long sentence)
Some information may reinforce or contradict that which has come before, but really it is our game, our armies, and our hobby, we can make up our own Chapters and Legions.
We can paint them as we see fit, we can write our own fluff.
Those are birth defects and other "freaks", not previous living examples of human sub-types.
I never claimed they were alive or that they were human sub-types. I was just showing that mutation happens but doesn't last. So that's my argument for lack of future variety.
What you said was:
Once upon a time Humans had striped hair, spotted hair, wildly long eyebrows, purple eyes and many other variations of pigments and genetic "flaws".
Giants and Hobbits existed in the ancient past (see National Geographic). As did trolls and ogres (see Da Vinci's grotesques).
People also had horns, eyestocks, scales, and other odd external bone growths (see Mutter Museum, Pennsylvania).
There would be a much wider range of genetics if we hadn't had events like the Black Death and WW2.
... implying that these people bred true, and that one guy with eyestalks meant that he came from an entire culture of people with eyestalks, which is a complete fabrication.
I didn't imply anything. You're drawing that conclusion yourself. Could you please quote where I said there was an entire race of people with eye stocks?
Oh you can't... cause I didn't.
But there is a race of people with large feet and two toes. It used to be in the World Records. Though I wouldn't call them a true race. More of a dominant family gene. But there is a whole tribe of them.
So again, please don't put words in my mouth. I know you like to argue with me for arguments sake, Psienesis.
Once upon a time Humans had striped hair, spotted hair, wildly long eyebrows, purple eyes and many other variations of pigments and genetic "flaws".
Giants and Hobbits existed in the ancient past (see National Geographic). As did trolls and ogres (see Da Vinci's grotesques).
People also had horns, eyestocks, scales, and other odd external bone growths (see Mutter Museum, Pennsylvania).
There would be a much wider range of genetics if we hadn't had events like the Black Death and WW2.
.. either you're simply stringing sentences together following some stream-of-consciousness model, where what is stated in one sentence has no bearing or effect on what is stated in the next...
... or you are implying that the Black Death and WW2 somehow prevented us from having people with eye-stalks and spotted hair.
Psienesis wrote: .. either you're simply stringing sentences together following some stream-of-consciousness model, where what is stated in one sentence has no bearing or effect on what is stated in the next....
As with anything I post here, or on any other media (FB ect.) this is correct.
I never claimed they were alive or that they were human sub-types. I was just showing that mutation happens but doesn't last. So that's my argument for lack of future variety.
This is simply inaccurate. Mutations happen frequently and, in fact, are one of the most important factors in explaining genetic diversity. The reason we are different from other apes is mutation, this is also why we are different to other animals and animals are different to plants and so on. Mutations that are beneficial are selected for and thus stabilise in a population, therefore they do in fact last.
Grey Templar wrote: Their black skin is also as a result of a geneseed mutation and its reaction to the radiation on Nocturne. The native population is actually white, paler than the most reclusive nerd.
Really? On a hot world with radiation? I thought the natives were at least tanned. But even if the natives were "black" the point is moot when they become salamanders because their skin becomes coal black anyway.
cadbren wrote:Still waiting to see what Polynesian themes are mentioned in regards the Salamanders.
Yup, I'll second that, however I have to apologise to xraytango, as perhaps I too was a bit abrupt with my last post.
xraytango wrote:I can see there being two sides of the Salamander stor because I do see the Greek influence, but I also see the similarities to many volcanic island cultures (except Iceland and Greenland, those are quite clearly Space Wolves, no doubt about that.) so I''m not going to argue it any longer.
In the end we all want to read a good story in a setting we enjoy and until the powers that be hire us to write their stories, we will undoubtedly continue to have discussions like this due to such a great deal of information that is out there that we may be aware as well as unaware of. (wow that's a long sentence)
Some information may reinforce or contradict that which has come before, but really it is our game, our armies, and our hobby, we can make up our own Chapters and Legions.
We can paint them as we see fit, we can write our own fluff.
That's all I have to say about that.
I still have my reservations on the Polynesian theme, but, in respect for your own pledge, I'll not argue any more on the matter as my previous posts state all I want to say on it.
Psienesis wrote: .. either you're simply stringing sentences together following some stream-of-consciousness model, where what is stated in one sentence has no bearing or effect on what is stated in the next....
As with anything I post here, or on any other media (FB ect.) this is correct.
Well then, to deconstruct your statements line by line then...
1: "Once upon a time Humans had striped hair, spotted hair, wildly long eyebrows, purple eyes and many other variations of pigments and genetic "flaws". "
We can still have purple eyes, if you have certain degrees of albinism. True violet or purple eyes have never existed in the human genome. Variations in hair color is natural. However, you won't find a "tiger stripes" or "leopard spots" happening naturally as a genetic expression, though certain nutritional deficiencies can cause such effects. Long eyebrows is not particularly uncommon amongst certain ethnic sets even in the modern era.
2: "Giants and Hobbits existed in the ancient past (see National Geographic). As did trolls and ogres (see Da Vinci's grotesques)"
Gigantism and dwarfism still happen today. They are genetic abnormalities, not common examples of human genetic expression. People of certain ethnicities also happen to frequently be above or below the averages of other ethnicities. Having a group of people in a limited geographical area who have little to no outside influence, or outside genetics introduced into the breeding pool, will ensure that these genetic traits continue to be passed on to future generations. This, though, does not make "giants" or "hobbits", it just makes people who are very tall or very short.
Da Vinci's grotesques are a mix of his documentation of medical maladies (like gout, birth defects, bone spurs, and similar conditions) or just random doodles he kept in a number of notebooks. In the main, and in the majority, these drawings are flights of fancy, not anything related to reality. One specific example is five people he didn't like, so he drew them ugly. They have as much bearing on reality as some middle-schooler's Dungeons and Dragons sketches on his notebook.
3: "There would be a much wider range of genetics if we hadn't had events like the Black Death and WW2"
With nearly 600 years between these events, and WW2 killing only 60 million people (less than 3% of the world's population at the time), the effect these events have on human genetic expression is conjectural, at best, specious at worst. What's more, the Black Plague didn't affect much of Africa, northern Asia, the Siberian Peninsula, or the Pacific theater, which is often the source of many "variant" genetic strains.
The Black Death only effected portions of the world at any one time.
Sure, it did cull a large amount of Europe's population, but unless these hypothetical variations were for some reason more vulnerable to the plague such an event would cull those genes evenly with what we have today.
Bubonic Plague did eventually cover the entire globe, but many hundreds of years later and not at the same time as it ravaged Europe and Asia.
Any abnormalities that there may be evidence for are just that, abnormalities.
Hell, in some parts of the world the Black Death is still a threat. Not on the same scale as in 1348, but it's still alive and kicking. Fortunately, because IIRC it's a bacterial strain, not viral, we have developed a cure or preventative for it, although I can't remember which.
IIRC a regimen of antibiotics is good enough if caught early on.
And an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Basic sanitation.
And IIRC it attacks the body in a similar way to the AIDS virus. I seem to remember a documentary about it that mentioned that people whose ancestors survived the Bubonic Plague had some resistance to the virus and that the connection was a promising lead to a potential cure.
I've not heard that, but it'd be interesting if true, as I've also never heard of a bacterial infection giving resistance to a viral infection, but I'm not going to discount it, either.
Its not the bacterial infection giving resistance, its an evolutionary selection pressure. The receptors that HIV attacks are the same ones that were involved in Plague. People who had mutant receptors were resistant to plague, survived and passed on the mutant receptors. Mutations in this same receptor help in HIV resistance.
This is therefore a case of people evolving to be resistant to one threat being resistant to another.
... or you are implying that the Black Death and WW2 somehow prevented us from having people with eye-stalks and spotted hair.
This thread went south real quick.
Still waiting to see what Polynesian themes are mentioned in regards the Salamanders.
So getting back on topic besides the genetic and viral discussions...
I've been out of the game for years and come back to see now that the Salamanders are obsidian black and possible Polynesian themes. I remembered the Salamanders having skin similar to that of central Africans today. I hadn't linked the Pacific rim of volcanoes with Nocturne, and that makes sense, yet Nocturne's population live underground, unlike Polynesians. Also, usually GW likes to give chapters related to certain ethnicities names related to their themes (SW, WS, BA). I guess I would expect the Salamanders to have Polynesian names.
Korm wrote: Why is this such an issue for people? Would it really be so terrible if they were all Caucasian?
Yeah it would. It is immersion breaking for many, including myself, to have everyone one ethnicity. Further it is really racist to make everyone Caucasian, more so because Caucasians are in the more powerful positions surrounding the hobby, due to problems with societal racism.
This is a really complicated topic, however and one I'm only an amateur at studying, genetics is my speciality not social science and racism is a particularly difficult subject to tackle anyway. If you don't see why its a problem I would suggest looking into some reading on racism if you are genuinely interested in the answer.
Korm wrote: Why is this such an issue for people? Would it really be so terrible if they were all Caucasian?
Yeah it would. It is immersion breaking for many, including myself, to have everyone one ethnicity. Further it is really racist to make everyone Caucasian, more so because Caucasians are in the more powerful positions surrounding the hobby, due to problems with societal racism.
This is a really complicated topic, however and one I'm only an amateur at studying, genetics is my speciality not social science and racism is a particularly difficult subject to tackle anyway. If you don't see why its a problem I would suggest looking into some reading on racism if you are genuinely interested in the answer.
It's an issue since the Imperium is the incredibly xenophobic entity that it is. When you read the HH novels about how the Imperium wiped out civilizations because they didn't "align with the Imperial Truth", well that's ethnic cleansing taken to another level we can't imagine. Making this Imperium of paranoia and hate that kills anybody who disagrees with them all white guys does not help the hobby at all...
Korm wrote: Why is this such an issue for people? Would it really be so terrible if they were all Caucasian?
Yeah it would. It is immersion breaking for many, including myself, to have everyone one ethnicity. Further it is really racist to make everyone Caucasian, more so because Caucasians are in the more powerful positions surrounding the hobby, due to problems with societal racism.
This is a really complicated topic, however and one I'm only an amateur at studying, genetics is my speciality not social science and racism is a particularly difficult subject to tackle anyway. If you don't see why its a problem I would suggest looking into some reading on racism if you are genuinely interested in the answer.
It's an issue since the Imperium is the incredibly xenophobic entity that it is. When you read the HH novels about how the Imperium wiped out civilizations because they didn't "align with the Imperial Truth", well that's ethnic cleansing taken to another level we can't imagine. Making this Imperium of paranoia and hate that kills anybody who disagrees with them all white guys does not help the hobby at all...
Well, the man at the top may very well have been Turkic, so there's that. Ultimately I don't see the problem there.
When the Imperium is smiting other human cultures left and right, that isn't 'ethnic cleansing', it is just taking out a faction that was opposing their objectives. When you also take into account that those civilizations also let in actual space aliens into them, it kinda makes it hard to keep up an idea of actual discrimination here. It essentially just boils down to Space Men killing Green Men. Or, in the case of the Interax, conservatives killing hippies.
I hardly see why it's a problem why we don't have that many coloured people in Warhammer 40K, it doesn't seem to be a problem in Warhammer Fantasy where the harbingers of all that is evil are, in order, Scandinavians, Slavic-Turkic facsimiles and Mongols. And I dunno about you, but I never saw Norwegians or Kazakhs boycotting GW products.
That being said, White Scars are apparently meant to be a Mongolic type deal. Maybe they did get some flak over the Kurgans and made these guys to show their cultural sensitivity or something. Maybe that's also why Space Wolves didn't fall to Chaos.
They're not all 'opposing their objectives'. There are instances in the HH novels about meeting civilizations that are peaceful yet reject the Imperial Truth. Yes, some civilizations lived with aliens but, they were living peacefully. It's not ethnic cleansing because they're not killing them based on their ethnicity and that was my mistake for saying it like that. They're killing millions and sometimes billions because they disagree with their beliefs, which is just as bad as ethnic cleansing.
Flanker wrote: They're not all 'opposing their objectives'. There are instances in the HH novels about meeting civilizations that are peaceful yet reject the Imperial Truth. Yes, some civilizations lived with aliens but, they were living peacefully. It's not ethnic cleansing because they're not killing them based on their ethnicity and that was my mistake for saying it like that. They're killing millions and sometimes billions because they disagree with their beliefs, which is just as bad as ethnic cleansing.
Pretty much every major empire, white or coloured, has done this on various scales. I'm not sure what the problem is.
Essentially, given that the Imperium's objective at the time was the unification of the entire human race, saying you don't want to be a part of their empire basically is opposing their objectives.
Flanker wrote: They're not all 'opposing their objectives'. There are instances in the HH novels about meeting civilizations that are peaceful yet reject the Imperial Truth. Yes, some civilizations lived with aliens but, they were living peacefully. It's not ethnic cleansing because they're not killing them based on their ethnicity and that was my mistake for saying it like that. They're killing millions and sometimes billions because they disagree with their beliefs, which is just as bad as ethnic cleansing.
Pretty much every major empire, white or coloured, has done this on various scales. I'm not sure what the problem is.
Essentially, given that the Imperium's objective at the time was the unification of the entire human race, saying you don't want to be a part of their empire basically is opposing their objectives.
So, just saying "Hey, we see what you're doing, but we'd rather live on our own and not be a part of your empire" is grounds for the extermination of a civilization? I realize most empires have done similar actions, but that doesn't atone for the atrocities committed.
Flanker wrote: They're not all 'opposing their objectives'. There are instances in the HH novels about meeting civilizations that are peaceful yet reject the Imperial Truth. Yes, some civilizations lived with aliens but, they were living peacefully. It's not ethnic cleansing because they're not killing them based on their ethnicity and that was my mistake for saying it like that. They're killing millions and sometimes billions because they disagree with their beliefs, which is just as bad as ethnic cleansing.
Pretty much every major empire, white or coloured, has done this on various scales. I'm not sure what the problem is.
Essentially, given that the Imperium's objective at the time was the unification of the entire human race, saying you don't want to be a part of their empire basically is opposing their objectives.
So, just saying "Hey, we see what you're doing, but we'd rather live on our own and not be a part of your empire" is grounds for the extermination of a civilization? I realize most empires have done similar actions, but that doesn't atone for the atrocities committed.
(shrug) It's not like they can just say "oh, that's fine." when this sort of thing comes up. It ruins the image of strength that Empires have to project in order to make sure that other cultures do join them, thus avoiding more bloodshed. Making themselves seem weak also makes it more likely they'll be attacked by some up-and-coming Xenos faction or what-have-you.
I'm not trying to justify this sort of thing, mind. But this is essentially how it is for any faction with an imperialistic agenda. That being said, I hate empires. I prefer raiders.
Flanker wrote: They're not all 'opposing their objectives'. There are instances in the HH novels about meeting civilizations that are peaceful yet reject the Imperial Truth. Yes, some civilizations lived with aliens but, they were living peacefully. It's not ethnic cleansing because they're not killing them based on their ethnicity and that was my mistake for saying it like that. They're killing millions and sometimes billions because they disagree with their beliefs, which is just as bad as ethnic cleansing.
Pretty much every major empire, white or coloured, has done this on various scales. I'm not sure what the problem is.
Essentially, given that the Imperium's objective at the time was the unification of the entire human race, saying you don't want to be a part of their empire basically is opposing their objectives.
So, just saying "Hey, we see what you're doing, but we'd rather live on our own and not be a part of your empire" is grounds for the extermination of a civilization? I realize most empires have done similar actions, but that doesn't atone for the atrocities committed.
(shrug) It's not like they can just say "oh, that's fine." when this sort of thing comes up. It ruins the image of strength that Empires have to project in order to make sure that other cultures do join them, thus avoiding more bloodshed. Making themselves seem weak also makes it more likely they'll be attacked by some up-and-coming Xenos faction or what-have-you.
I'm not trying to justify this sort of thing, mind. But this is essentially how it is for any faction with an imperialistic agenda. That being said, I hate empires. I prefer raiders.
Alright, I gotcha. I thought you were agreeing with it. All good!
To be honest, all respect to the OP, but questions like this shouldn't really be asked for a couple of reasons: A) Because the hobby gives you the choice to paint them any which way and B) Because ethnicity will be massively diverse anyway in 40K, it's probably better to ask not what Ethnicity Chapters are, but rather what theme did GW intend for them, hence cutting out the intense and rather personal arguments.
However, having said that, I'll contradict my own post and say ethnicity should be discussed as people need to feel welcomed regardless of their history, grouping, physicality etc, but it's possible that the internet is not really the most conducive format for debating in on such an issue as it doesn't allow people to convey their message fully as text does not display tonal inflections, body language etc.
Flanker wrote:'ve been out of the game for years and come back to see now that the Salamanders are obsidian black and possible Polynesian themes. I remembered the Salamanders having skin similar to that of central Africans today. I hadn't linked the Pacific rim of volcanoes with Nocturne, and that makes sense, yet Nocturne's population live underground, unlike Polynesians. Also, usually GW likes to give chapters related to certain ethnicities names related to their themes (SW, WS, BA). I guess I would expect the Salamanders to have Polynesian names.
So, @Flanker - The issue is that in the original concept of the Salamanders, Rick Priestly labelled them as Black. Not Obsidian Black, not African Black (I do apologise if that label is offensive, but I'm just trying to clarify it). Just Black. This was assumed, at the time to mean African black and hence the majority of people, including 'Eavy Metal painted them African black. However, GW later clarified the issue by saying that their gene-seed has a small mutation, as many other Chapters do, which reacts with high levels of radiation on Nocturne (Their home-world) to produce pitch-black skin. This is hence automatically assumed to be a racist move by GW to eradicate black people's representation within 40K. They are also given burning red eyes as part of the mutation which people find -y, but I guess it's just to reinforce the fire theme.
IMHO, I don't mind it - it's kind of ambiguous for all ethnicities, but I can recognise that others will feel segregated. But seeing as I got into 40K only 2 years ago, I'm gonna get a ton of 'what the feth do you know' type comments.
On the subject of Polynesian theme - well we've debated that one. Take a look back at the last page to get the full debate there: A couple of us reckon the theme is more Greek based, others think Polynesian - make your own mind up.
Just a little word on Empires. Now I'm not going to dispute all that's bad with Empires - assimilating territories against the will of others, imposing cultural changes, removing so called 'undesirable' peoples and re-populating with colonists - Yep, that's by no means a civilised route to take. However, it saddens me that sometimes people forget that Empires can also bring great benefits and wondrous advantages. You can probably guess what's coming next, judging by which country I come from, but the British Empire, which admittedly was the perpetrator of many of the actions I've listed above - taking territory, imposing cultural change, removing native peoples (the Aboriginal peoples, the poor Tanzanians who we literally hunted to death :( - there is NO excuse for that action.), however, it's a bit narrow minded to forget all the benefits we brought as well - a fair judiciary system, a greater sense of equality, more advance infrastructure, a fairer governmental system, advances both technologically, medically and socially. The British Empire also brought near global peace to the world in the era of Pax Britannia, an era in which the British ruthlessly abolished concepts such as slavery and piracy.
I'll not say the British Empire was 100% great for everyone - it most certainly wasn't, but it did help in some ways to promote a fairer world. Our world may not be 100% equal now, but I reckon if it wasn't for the European Empires of the 18th-20th centuries, then it would be a whole lot worse. Possibly I'm just biased because I'm proud of my nation, but there's pro's and con's to everything, even Empires.
Flanker wrote:'ve been out of the game for years and come back to see now that the Salamanders are obsidian black and possible Polynesian themes. I remembered the Salamanders having skin similar to that of central Africans today. I hadn't linked the Pacific rim of volcanoes with Nocturne, and that makes sense, yet Nocturne's population live underground, unlike Polynesians. Also, usually GW likes to give chapters related to certain ethnicities names related to their themes (SW, WS, BA). I guess I would expect the Salamanders to have Polynesian names.
So, @Flanker - The issue is that in the original concept of the Salamanders, Rick Priestly labelled them as Black. Not Obsidian Black, not African Black (I do apologise if that label is offensive, but I'm just trying to clarify it). Just Black. This was assumed, at the time to mean African black and hence the majority of people, including 'Eavy Metal painted them African black. However, GW later clarified the issue by saying that their gene-seed has a small mutation, as many other Chapters do, which reacts with high levels of radiation on Nocturne (Their home-world) to produce pitch-black skin. This is hence automatically assumed to be a racist move by GW to eradicate black people's representation within 40K. They are also given burning red eyes as part of the mutation which people find -y, but I guess it's just to reinforce the fire theme.
IMHO, I don't mind it - it's kind of ambiguous for all ethnicities, but I can recognise that others will feel segregated. But seeing as I got into 40K only 2 years ago, I'm gonna get a ton of 'what the feth do you know' type comments.
On the subject of Polynesian theme - well we've debated that one. Take a look back at the last page to get the full debate there: A couple of us reckon the theme is more Greek based, others think Polynesian - make your own mind up.
Just a little word on Empires. Now I'm not going to dispute all that's bad with Empires - assimilating territories against the will of others, imposing cultural changes, removing so called 'undesirable' peoples and re-populating with colonists - Yep, that's by no means a civilised route to take. However, it saddens me that sometimes people forget that Empires can also bring great benefits and wondrous advantages. You can probably guess what's coming next, judging by which country I come from, but the British Empire, which admittedly was the perpetrator of many of the actions I've listed above - taking territory, imposing cultural change, removing native peoples (the Aboriginal peoples, the poor Tanzanians who we literally hunted to death :( - there is NO excuse for that action.), however, it's a bit narrow minded to forget all the benefits we brought as well - a fair judiciary system, a greater sense of equality, more advance infrastructure, a fairer governmental system, advances both technologically, medically and socially. The British Empire also brought near global peace to the world in the era of Pax Britannia, an era in which the British ruthlessly abolished concepts such as slavery and piracy.
I'll not say the British Empire was 100% great for everyone - it most certainly wasn't, but it did help in some ways to promote a fairer world. Our world may not be 100% equal now, but I reckon if it wasn't for the European Empires of the 18th-20th centuries, then it would be a whole lot worse. Possibly I'm just biased because I'm proud of my nation, but there's pro's and con's to everything, even Empires.
Like I said, that's what I recall, and that was years ago, so I'm probably forgetting some key information and other information has probably been added since I last really delved into Salamander fluff.
And you're right about the benefits empires can bring, I was trying to highlight the negative aspects many empries brought since I don't think many people draw similarities or really see how terrible the Imperium really is to be a part of. But, since you brought up how good some empires can be...
I wasn't disputing your point at all - Empires, the Imperium in particular, can be bad, I was just giving a different viewpoint, but as this is a bit OT we should probably not delve too deep into it Suffice it to say, I agree with you, and myself , 100%.
Korm wrote: Why is this such an issue for people? Would it really be so terrible if they were all Caucasian?
Yeah it would. It is immersion breaking for many, including myself, to have everyone one ethnicity. Further it is really racist to make everyone Caucasian, more so because Caucasians are in the more powerful positions surrounding the hobby, due to problems with societal racism.
Caucasians dominate, you racist twit, because the hobby was created in a country whose native population is caucasian and the vast majority of the initial customer base was caucasian. As far as I know, the majority of the current customer base is still caucasian. So go take your anti-caucasian biases elsewhere.
Korm wrote: Why is this such an issue for people? Would it really be so terrible if they were all Caucasian?
Yeah it would. It is immersion breaking for many, including myself, to have everyone one ethnicity. Further it is really racist to make everyone Caucasian, more so because Caucasians are in the more powerful positions surrounding the hobby, due to problems with societal racism.
Caucasians dominate, you racist twit, because the hobby was created in a country whose native population is caucasian and the vast majority of the initial customer base was caucasian. As far as I know, the majority of the current customer base is still caucasian. So go take your anti-caucasian biases elsewhere.
You really don't get it do you?
Also are you calling me racist? Against Caucasians?
Korm wrote: Why is this such an issue for people? Would it really be so terrible if they were all Caucasian?
Yeah it would. It is immersion breaking for many, including myself, to have everyone one ethnicity. Further it is really racist to make everyone Caucasian, more so because Caucasians are in the more powerful positions surrounding the hobby, due to problems with societal racism.
Caucasians dominate, you racist twit, because the hobby was created in a country whose native population is caucasian and the vast majority of the initial customer base was caucasian. As far as I know, the majority of the current customer base is still caucasian. So go take your anti-caucasian biases elsewhere.
You really don't get it do you?
Also are you calling me racist? Against Caucasians?
Are you honestly saying that there isn't any racism against whites or that they have no right to be offended when they're the targets of racism?
Seconding Purple here - This is neither the time nor the place for racism allegations - The Internet WILL fuel your anger and it is NOT the best method of communication to convey your thoughts. For the good of this otherwise polite thread - DESIST.
While you're calming down, or just for general further reading on that particular topic, I suggest you look up intersectionality. The wikipedia article focuses on intersectionality as it applies to the feminist perspective, but it can also be applied to racially sensitive issues as well. Othering might also be a good topic.
Seems people are largely dodging the question so I'll get right to it.
Salamanders are whichever black you prefer. Literal or African.
White Scars are indeed Mongoloid.
Crimson Fists are Hispanic.
Space Wolves are Norse
I'm not sure about ALL Dark angels, but I know Deathwing Terminators are Native American. GW clarified that when asked why they wear feathers.
The fluff is there simply to make the in-game universe interesting and it's developed simply along the personal tastes of the creators of the game, such as red flaming eyes and black skin in the case of Salamanders. However, there is absolutely no clause, whatsoever that says you are law bound to follow the fluff because that's how GW presents it. If you don't like it, invent some new fluff for it. The hobby is your choice, do with it as you will - enjoy it!
That's all I have to say on the matter because IMHO this thread is becoming rather jaded, with many people adding in content that has already been debated. I'm not even sure the OP is even reading any of this anyway, so the point is pretty moot except to fuel our own theories, and, in some peoples case, rage!
As a sidenote, probably a dumb one, but I've encountered TL,DR before - I don't even know what it means, can anybody clarify this?
Archonate wrote: TL,DR
I'm not sure about ALL Dark angels, but I know Deathwing Terminators are Native American. GW clarified that when asked why they wear feathers.
Deathwing = Native Americans is not entirely correct. Read the story "Deathwing" for the complete picture. In Essence:
Spoiler:
Deathwing Squad returns to their old homeworld to recruit new members. Planet is populated by humans who are based off the Native Americans. DW Librarian finds out that the world is taken over by a genestealer cult. Gets killed. Squad repaint their TDA in white like their old tradition demands to take vengeance. When other DA arrive the single squad had purged their homeworld of the genestealers. To honour their deeds DW takes over the white armour.
Crimson Fists don't really seem to be Hispanic in the sense that the term is used here in the U.S. They seem to owe more to Imperial Spain (putting their inspiration in a similar time and place to their Prussian parent legion) then to anything having to do with Latin America.
Warpig1815 wrote: Seconding Purple here - This is neither the time nor the place for racism allegations - The Internet WILL fuel your anger and it is NOT the best method of communication to convey your thoughts. For the good of this otherwise polite thread - DESIST.
Thanks. I was confused at someone implying I was racist against myself, then more confused by the response, but you getting to me shut up for a while let the brain kick back in. Obvs people wouldn't know my ethnicity on the internet.
I'm going to read but stay on the qt in this thread now as I suspect I would make things worse, as I can't easily leave bigoted comments alone and have difficulty with treating social justice issues, particularly those with a lot of academic material around them as a matter of opinion due to preponderance of evidence, blah, blah, blah. Not the place fr this as you said.
Tldr; Shutting my trap for the good of the thread and other people.
I read in the 40k 25th anniversary issue of white dwarf that Pedro Kantor was named after rick Priestley's friend Pete Cantor, who helped in some way with the development of rogue trader. Fun trivia there.
If you want a ethnic background for your army, just make one. It's not to hard, and it's your army. Have fun with the idea.
. Yeah, your perfectly right as evolution to the environment will have taken it's course - hence black people can legitamitely turn white (Let's face it, it happened on Earth) and vice versa.
Also, just to say that it's xraytango whom I'm humbly disputing, not cadbren. 
-y, but I guess it's just to reinforce the fire theme.
