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cadbren wrote:
There is no way GW could ever hope to satisfy the peculiar ethnic desires of the fanbase. It makes sense to have a standard look as this makes collecting an army easier - you really don't want to have every sergeant being chinese looking and every captain being something else - it would look contrived. Better to leave that sort of local flavour to third party manufacturers.

About the marines though, what should they look like? Assuming a base marine that looks like a white guy, how should he be painted? The most common way is standard flesh tones showing untanned skin. Do marines spend so much time in their armour that they look like Darth Vader - palid soft skin from being in a protected suit most of the time plus they spend most of their life on board a ship going from fight to fight. Or should they be tanned to show years of exposure to varying planets with hard cracked skin?

I can definitely stand by this, the whole third party manufactures and leaving it up to the hobbyist. I can assume that Marines are kinda tan, remembering that most of them graduate from Scouts to full Marines, and Scouts don't actually use helmets. In that time, their skin could have gotten fairly tanned. And it also depends on where they train. Idk, that's just my opinion on that matter.

Tans can and do go away if you don't maintain it.

In the end, however, barring mutations a Space Marine's skin color is dependent on the environment which they are in, because of a certain genetic implant that they have.

I refer to facial features to represent ethnicity, rather than skin color. In modern art classes for Western countries (I'm not sure how it's done elsehwere), a white person's face is the "Default", and they don't teach you how to draw/paint/sculpt/etc the faces of other ethnic groups. A person who draws an accurate African-ethnic will often be told that the face is wrongly proportioned, even though it's entirely accurate, simply because it's not "white" enough.

 Melissia wrote:
Tans can and do go away if you don't maintain it.

In the end, however, barring mutations a Space Marine's skin color is dependent on the environment which they are in, because of a certain genetic implant that they have.

I refer to facial features to represent ethnicity, rather than skin color. In modern art classes for Western countries (I'm not sure how it's done elsehwere), a white person's face is the "Default", and they don't teach you how to draw/paint/sculpt/etc the faces of other ethnic groups. A person who draws an accurate African-ethnic will often be told that the face is wrongly proportioned, even though it's entirely accurate, simply because it's not "white" enough.

That's awful!

A sufficiently skilled painter should be able to approximate different ethnicities by altering the highlights on the models to emphasize different facial features; even if you don't feel like you're up to the challenge, you could probably make Caucasian-sculpted GW miniatures pass for non-"white" ethnicities that are close to "white" in facial structure (Some Arabs and Turks, for instance). There's also the fact that there's a lot of variety available within "white" people; if you don't feel like painting/writing fluff for "generic white people" because that's boring try taking a map of Europe, picking a random spot, and reading up on the history and the culture there. I guarantee you'll find something more interesting than "generic white people".

This also goes for the Eldar, by the way; just because Tolkein and GW write about pasty-white elves doesn't mean yours have to look like that (see the Drow from most D&D settings, depictions of the Valenar that actually take into consideration what desert-dwelling nomads would look like from Eberron, and Tuvok the black Vulcan if you can stomach Star Trek: Voyager).

Tans can go away, it's also possible that constant exposure to recycled air and artificial environments could also do something like hardening the skin so that it's not as pink as it would normally be.
They could also be more tattooed than we normally see them.
Some people give their scouts face paint, but I've very seldom seen it on a full marine.
I think chaos marauder heads would make excellent marine heads. The current lot are too boy scout looking, while some chapters are like that there would be others that looked more like a biker gang - I'm not counting Space Wolves because I think the hair of them is overdone on the minis.

 Warpig1815 wrote:
Personally, I prefer the new Salamanders explanation for skin tone. It gives a sense of ambiguity that, IMHO, doesn't make people feel wedged into painting African guys just for fluff's sake or to avoid being accused of racism. Now I'm not saying this because I don't like African people, or any ethnicity (Because nothing could be further from the truth), but because people tend to think of their models (or characters etc. in the context of games etc.) as an extension of themselves or their ancestors, like 'I wish I was a 7ft, superhuman Space Marine'. If I'm painting Salamanders, or playing Skyrim say, I don't want to play as a African guy or an Asian guy etc, not because I don't like them, but because I'm not African or Asian and I want to feel part of the game, as if it's really me there.

I think, in a way this can be said of GW's own models, as I have seen complaints that GW only produce Caucasian heads - but again, the original designers were White British and hence when they designed the game the were probably putting thinking of themselves as Space Marines - not some distant guy in Ethiopia, Jordan or Indonesia. In addition to this, it's probably easier to use one mold across the board and adapt it, than try to produce numerous molds to suit different ethnicities, hence the standardisation of caucasian.

However, in terms of galaxy wide ethnicity, and those chapters that haven't got a special explanation such as the Salamanders - I don't see why a planet couldn't have been colonised by a particular ethnic group (Such as White Scar's homeworld Chogoris) and that ethnic group has been isolated, in fact - I bet most Feral planets are like this. But I reckon it's far more likely that, given the mobility of the IoM's population, for civilised planets, ethnicity would be incredibly varied and in no way distinguishable compared to today's concept of ethnicity.

This is just my opinion and I certainly don't expect anybody to feel forced to agree with it.

...So people who play Tyranids, Daemons, and Necrons feel as if they're Dinobugs, Demonic lovecraftian entities, and mummy robots trapped in a human body?

Interesting.

 Warpig1815 wrote:
But I reckon it's far more likely that, given the mobility of the IoM's population, for civilised planets, ethnicity would be incredibly varied and in no way distinguishable compared to today's concept of ethnicity.

Have to disagree here. I think you overestimate the amount of off world travel the average person does. Given the danger of the warp, most travel would be essential reasons only such as pilgrimage, war and trade. Outside of the immediate areas that these people go to, the wider community would be untouched by such outsiders. You are far more likely to have local ethnic groups based on what hive level you live on than people from off world.

Billions of people literally living on top of each other where class seems to be important so not much mixing between the levels will see local variations appear. If there is a particular look that is considered more attractive then those people will be concentrated at the top of the hives as wealthy people seek out partners that look a certain way.
It may be that the lower hives are dominated by albino types with large eyes as they can survive without any contact with the sun and in lower light environments.

I remember space marines being described as "ruddy faced" due to their hyper-efficient blood in the novel "Space Marine".

 Warpig1815 wrote:
Personally, I prefer the new Salamanders explanation for skin tone. It gives a sense of ambiguity that, IMHO, doesn't make people feel wedged into painting African guys just for fluff's sake or to avoid being accused of racism. Now I'm not saying this because I don't like African people, or any ethnicity (Because nothing could be further from the truth), but because people tend to think of their models (or characters etc. in the context of games etc.) as an extension of themselves or their ancestors, like 'I wish I was a 7ft, superhuman Space Marine'. If I'm painting Salamanders, or playing Skyrim say, I don't want to play as a African guy or an Asian guy etc, not because I don't like them, but because I'm not African or Asian and I want to feel part of the game, as if it's really me there.

Well this is quite a strange way to look at things. You may not be black, but you probably are not seven foot tall either. Why it is possible to identify with one of these traits but not the other? And do only blue skinned people play Tau?

I don't quite get that explanation either.

Or perhaps it's just that I'm mature enough of a connoisseur in literature that I can empathize with characters who are neither female nor white (IE physically resembling me), or those who contain any number of other attributes different from me?

The other thing to take account of which I should have mentioned previously is the function (or lack there of) of the Melanochrome.

A Space Marine's skin should alter rapidly to best suit his environment allowing 'black' Space Marines to appear pale or vice versa. In some chapters this cuases permanent pigmentation change whuch is not to mention the fact that the Astartes often come to resemble their Primarch quite closely.

These factors would go a long way to deminish or even eliminate any racial physical characteristics an Astartes had before the implantation process.

Assuming that the Melanochrome functions properly would an Astartes have a base skin colour from his race or his Primarch? If, as I mentioned earlier, humans all had dark skin before farming would an Astartes with a diet rich in Vitamin D who went on to have dark skin due to the melanochrome compensating for the environment retain that dark skin, as it better protects, or would it revert to type?

So I just counted. Out of my nine helmetless marines seven have white skin and two have black. This is mainly because pale skin offers better contrast to their dark red armour. I'm sure that on marines with white or yellow armour darker skin would look better than pale skin for similar reasons.

 Crimson wrote:

Well this is quite a strange way to look at things. You may not be black, but you probably are not seven foot tall either. Why it is possible to identify with one of these traits but not the other? And do only blue skinned people play Tau?

It is normal for people to create art that looks like themselves than some other people. You go to Africa and local crafts show people that look black, you go to China and local dolls look Chinese. It's only in western countries that there is this obsession with having to show every group on earth.
If any of you have heard of playmobil, I have seen (generally American) collectors of that toy moaning about the lack of ethnic diversity. This for a toy that has no nose or ears and dots for eyes.
Political Correctness is complete bs and causes THE dumbest discussions to take place. The faces are what, 4mm high? Stop getting worked up over something you can't even see from a couple of metres away.

I love how this thread has kept its civility during discussion. Good stuff, ladies gentlemen.

What certain Space Marine chapters could you say that resemble certain cultures or nationalities of our current time. Besides the Wolves and White Scars, who I feel have a rather potent resemblance to certain groups of people in ancient history.

Writers put themselves into things its human nature, I don't see the racism anymore than the ancient Ethiopian pictures that portrayed Jesus with African features, those in Denmark Europe where he had Norse features, those in the orient where he had oriental features, and those in the Mediterranean done by Greeks and Phoenicians that are probably the most realistic.

In the vanilla codex, a Salamanders sergeant has chaos black skin.

I didn't read through the entire thread so this has probably been said, but I know there is at least some Racial/Religious overtones to the entirety of 40k, as far as Marines are considered, this is what I know and it could all be covered or all be wrong, but here it is anyway.

Imperial Fists -- Eastern European (Prussians etc)/Italian/Spanish
Dark Angels -- I don't remember why but I have always heard that Lion'El is equated as being the "Jewish Primarch".
Ultramarines -- Romans
Black Templars -- English Crusaders
White Scars -- Mongolians/Asians
Salamanders -- African (Yes they are obsidian black with red eyes, I know)

So yes there are many racial/cultural/religious/ethnic overtones in 40k.

 Brokksamson wrote:
I didn't read through the entire thread so this has probably been said, but I know there is at least some Racial/Religious overtones to the entirety of 40k, as far as Marines are considered, this is what I know and it could all be covered or all be wrong, but here it is anyway.

Imperial Fists -- Eastern European (Prussians etc)/Italian/Spanish
Dark Angels -- I don't remember why but I have always heard that Lion'El is equated as being the "Jewish Primarch".
Ultramarines -- Romans
Black Templars -- English Crusaders
White Scars -- Mongolians/Asians
Salamanders -- African (Yes they are obsidian black with red eyes, I know)

So yes there are many racial/cultural/religious/ethnic overtones in 40k.

I'm confused as to how you are making these conclusions. There is not a single person in Africa with skin as black as a space marine salamander. Also, where do you get Ultramarines being Roman? I've seen a few captain helmets that have adornments that may look Roman, but I don't think you can define the entire chapter as such.

 Brokksamson wrote:
I didn't read through the entire thread so this has probably been said, but I know there is at least some Racial/Religious overtones to the entirety of 40k, as far as Marines are considered, this is what I know and it could all be covered or all be wrong, but here it is anyway.

Imperial Fists -- Eastern European (Prussians etc)/Italian/Spanish
Dark Angels -- I don't remember why but I have always heard that Lion'El is equated as being the "Jewish Primarch".
Ultramarines -- Romans
Black Templars -- English Crusaders
White Scars -- Mongolians/Asians
Salamanders -- African (Yes they are obsidian black with red eyes, I know)

So yes there are many racial/cultural/religious/ethnic overtones in 40k.

I don't see Lion as a Jewish kind of guy. He strikes me as an English Medieval, possibly French knight.

As I said, it could all be wrong, it's just what i remember hearing.

I wasn't trying to flame you. Just curious as to how you came up with that. Some of those are quite detailed ethnicities.

I know it is called out somewhere that Imperial Fists take a lot of their history from "Prussian Junkers", a lot of their names, Sigismund is an italian/roman name, there are also a lot of other Roman/Spanish names throughout heroes of the Imperial Fists.

White Scars -- Jaghatai Khan? Definitely a reference to Mongolians there, and they all seem to have that asian look about them.

Black Templars -- I don't know that this needs much explanation to be said that they are English Crusader types. Or at least act like it, after all they are 2nd founding Fists.

Ultras -- They wear a lot of Roman esque gear, the tabards and long tassle ropes, lots of helmet "combs" and very ornate armor as a general statement, seems a bit Roman influenced to me. I believe the history of Macragge is also somewhat Roman sounding, Roboute pacified a massive group of barbarians in the north? Ruled by Consuls and Aristocrats with massive plush houses and servants, a large senate.

Dark Angels -- I honestly don't remember where I heard it, probably on a Forum and I just found it funny.

Salamanders -- Well... They certainly aren't white, and they are dark skinned, whether or not it was meant that they are "black" or not, I don't know that it really matters haha.

Don't know if it's been brought up in this thread, but Space Marines have photochromatic skin (impossibly pale in low-light conditions, pitch black in direct sunlight) and massively warped physiologies: they have no ethnicity; any genetic traits common on their homeworld are all but buried beneath the mutation they suffer as a matter of turning them into Space Marines.

Of course, they're rarely written as so alien as the core fluff would have them, but it's not like the black library has anyone of particular competence aside from Abnett.

cadbren wrote:Have to disagree here. I think you overestimate the amount of off world travel the average person does.

Quite possibly I am over estimating it, but I'm referring more to initial colonisations, and the settling of Imperial guard regiments than I am to the average person travelling around. I could have been more clear on that I reckon.

Crimson wrote:Well this is quite a strange way to look at things. You may not be black, but you probably are not seven foot tall either. Why it is possible to identify with one of these traits but not the other? And do only blue skinned people play Tau?

I suppose, but what I was trying to get at is that it is the personal connection to the idea. It's not so much the '7ft Space Marine' part, but rather the 'I' part. If you are black, asian, white etc., you are probably more likely to want to paint them as your ethnicity as it's the personal connection. The Space Marine part is less relevant as it is a part of the connection that is completely unattainable. However, this thread was about ethnicity within Space Marines - humans and how diverse ethnicity is. Tau, as far as I can see, do not come into this as I would imagine people would choose to paint Tau based on other reasons other than personal identification.

ZSO, SAHAAL wrote:Writers put themselves into things its human nature, I don't see the racism anymore than the ancient Ethiopian pictures that portrayed Jesus with African features, those in Denmark Europe where he had Norse features, those in the orient where he had oriental features, and those in the Mediterranean done by Greeks and Phoenicians that are probably the most realistic.

This is essentially what I was trying to get across, apologies to all who were confused by my point. :(

Melissia wrote:Or perhaps it's just that I'm mature enough of a connoisseur in literature that I can empathize with characters who are neither female nor white (IE physically resembling me), or those who contain any number of other attributes different from me?

It's not that I cannot empathise with them, I was just trying to get across that because ethnicity is such a personal idea to people, they are probably more likely to identify and create characters/models based on themselves, than people of other ethnicities. The choice of a space marine was probably a bad example, but I feel I've explained myself above.

However, that said, I don't understand how my expression of an opposing opinion makes me less 'mature' than you as I was only expressing an opinion with the intent of a scholarly debate, not the intention to rile tempers! How 'mature' is it to deplore someone else's opinion from behind a computer screen (Which isn't the most conducive of communication methods in the world), and across the expanse of the Atlantic Ocean, basing your own opinion of them on your interpretation of their words, instead of first asking for clarification ? (Which I would be more than happy to provide) And how is that you being a self-confessed connoisseur of literature means that you are more mature than I? For all you know I could too be a connoisseur of literature, let's face it, my nation is the home of many famous works of literature which I'm sure even your nation will have heard of...

For all that though, it matters little as the thread is not about that, and I have no will to lose civility as both you and I have participated in the same threads before with no ill-will, and I wouldn't wish for this thread to descend into allegations of 'who's more mature than who'.

White Scars have certainly used the story of Ghengis Khan for their background material. I don't think they represent any other asian culture other than the Mongol hordes of the middle ages.

Imperial Fists are all over the place. They come from an ice planet originally called Inuit. The Inuit being another name for Eskimos. That seems to be the only reference to that culture though, but the Fists don't seem to have a clear culture from earth's past or present.

Black Templars. If a culture should be ascribed to them it's Germanic knights. They have German names and their colours are the reverse of the Teutonic Order. There is also the Knights of St John who are still around and operate ambulances so it could be a blend of the two.

Ultramarines are an obvious blend of ancient Greek and Roman with a bit of Scottish thrown in for flavour.

I would imagine that so far into the future, many races would have inter-bred and there would generally all have about the same skin tone. I may be wrong, but I assume that everybody would probably look about the same, and it probably wouldn't be white, it would be some kind of brown skinned/dark haired conglomeration. And as far as I know, the only black skinned people are Salamanders, and thats not even due to melanin...

Just out of curiosity, how do you get ROMAN ethnicity ???
Greek is ok (south european, balding with lot of facial hair + chest hair mandatory)...pardon my sterotype...

In a short story( I don't remember which but the marine was a memeber of the Executioners Chapter) The facial features of a space marine are described as being kind of wierd with a flattened/stretched face with eyes that are pretty far apart. Basically distorted due to the inhuman growth of the skull underneath. Even thought its not really cannon i still figure no matter what the space marine looked like before now he looks like a space marine with possibley different colored skin (but not always due to being able to change skin color).

I think there was one black Space Marine in the Black Templars from one of the Boom! warhammer 40k comics.

 Kain wrote:
I think there was one black Space Marine in the Black Templars from one of the Boom! warhammer 40k comics.