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Although not "Space Marine", I've always enjoyed the combination of both black and white people in the Catachan Jungle Fighters. As the Catachans are part of the inspiration for my own homebrew IG force, I plan on doing the same.

It would not be a stretch at all to have a Space Marine chapter from such a diverse skin-color world and have both black and white Space Marines. In fact, I'd personally find it to be a nice touch to a custom chapter, especially with the painting opportunities involved.

The White Scars are probably based on the legends of what some of those mounted warrior cultures did, rather than a single one of them. The mongols might not have raided as we think of it, but they could move from battle to battle extremely fast. And when led by fine generals such as Subutai they could do amazing things, such as defeting both Hungary and Poland in battles 500 km apart on two consecutive days.

White screaming old bald guys with tons of scarring and emotional issues.

Hell, the Salamanders are basically "Caucasian with black skin", and were this even before the retcon.

Scipio Africanus wrote:
Crimea is basically step people.

In that they are only people by marriage?

A space marine can be of any race, but a chapter tend's to be generally of the same race, as they recruit from the native resident's of local world's, who over time would begin to look more similar than diversified.

IF you had a chapter who were fleet based, and recruited from world's they passed by, then you would likely find a huvge variety of ethnicities within their ranks.


Curiously though, I wonder if the geneseed would alter the racial qualities in any meaningfull way of potential recruit's. I know from the books that those who received horus's geneseed had a tendency to look like him post-transformation into a space marine. As skin tone and ethnicity is generally speaking, a purely asthetic thing too, i'm curious to know if that would change also. I mean, it happens with the salamander's technically, though they are their own ethnicity that doesn't exist in our world, with coalblack skin and red eyes and all.

Personally, I prefer the new Salamanders explanation for skin tone. It gives a sense of ambiguity that, IMHO, doesn't make people feel wedged into painting African guys just for fluff's sake or to avoid being accused of racism. Now I'm not saying this because I don't like African people, or any ethnicity (Because nothing could be further from the truth), but because people tend to think of their models (or characters etc. in the context of games etc.) as an extension of themselves or their ancestors, like 'I wish I was a 7ft, superhuman Space Marine'. If I'm painting Salamanders, or playing Skyrim say, I don't want to play as a African guy or an Asian guy etc, not because I don't like them, but because I'm not African or Asian and I want to feel part of the game, as if it's really me there.

I think, in a way this can be said of GW's own models, as I have seen complaints that GW only produce Caucasian heads - but again, the original designers were White British and hence when they designed the game the were probably putting thinking of themselves as Space Marines - not some distant guy in Ethiopia, Jordan or Indonesia. In addition to this, it's probably easier to use one mold across the board and adapt it, than try to produce numerous molds to suit different ethnicities, hence the standardisation of caucasian.

However, in terms of galaxy wide ethnicity, and those chapters that haven't got a special explanation such as the Salamanders - I don't see why a planet couldn't have been colonised by a particular ethnic group (Such as White Scar's homeworld Chogoris) and that ethnic group has been isolated, in fact - I bet most Feral planets are like this. But I reckon it's far more likely that, given the mobility of the IoM's population, for civilised planets, ethnicity would be incredibly varied and in no way distinguishable compared to today's concept of ethnicity.

This is just my opinion and I certainly don't expect anybody to feel forced to agree with it.

I like to think the gene seed would influence what the space marine eventually looks like I'm sure the salamanders books mentioned something about that. I think the original da would be pale skinned with caliban being covered with dark forests and this would be the cause with new recruits from other worlds as the gene seed altered them.

Ethnicity has nothing to do with skin colour. Skin colour and other physical qualities are determined by race. Ethnicity is concerned with nationality, culture, ancestry, language and beliefs.

In those terms every Chapter represents a unique ethnicity.

In racial terms the Earth has undergone dramatic changes by the time of the 41st Millennium and so it is unlikely that any modern day race exists on Holy Terra. Whilst they have been reduced to mythic descriptors there is also the factor of the Stone Men and Golden Men to take into account whereby one seems to have been a new kind of human; at least that is the implication.

As for other worlds it should be noted that white european skin may have existed for as little as 5500 years due to the advent of farming and the lack of Vitamin D which was more readily available through the hunter gatherer diet of fish and meat.

It is likely that despite white or black skin no human in 40K is of european or african descent.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
More likely these racial qualities are only similar to modern day equivilants.

Many factors determine race and is quite obvious that 40,000 years of adaptation to new environments will have caused many new races to appear and in some cases has produced new species such as ratlings, ogryns and even the scalies from Necromunda.

Gogsnik wrote:It is likely that despite white or black skin no human in 40K is of european or african descent.

Whilst I agree with the rest of your statement, could I point out that from a scientific standpoint the above quote cannot be the case. Possibly it's the way in which I'm interpreting your post, but due to the simple fact that all human life originated within Africa, then migrating to areas such as Europe, and then migrating off-world, I think it's pretty accurate to say that all humans in 40K were descendant definitely from 'Africans' (loosely applied as the concept of 'African' as a racial grouping is relatively modern in terms of the history of modern humanity - some 200,000 years) and a great deal from Europeans. Regardless of the adaptations humanity gains, whether from a Earth perspective or from a galaxy perspective, we are all descendant from one original group of humans.

And it would be presumptuous to think that at the time of mankind spreading out among the starts that none of the colonists came from Europe or Africa.

I would guess colonists came from whatever the most developed nations were at the time. And since we have no info about the state of the Earth between M3 and M10 we cannot say anything with certainty beyond people came from there.

A million worlds or whatever it is allows any existing racial type to exist plus countless others.

There could be races that have light brown skin and pink hair, or look like east asians but completely black or completely white (as in paper white).

40k originated in the UK so by convention the models are shown as looking like white people and are often painted as such.

Anything goes really but it may be that certain chapters have certain features. It seems after tens of thousands of years that dark skinned people would be rare or non-existent on Fenris amongst the primitive tribes as the lack of sun would select against them over time.
Salamanders all turn black regardless where they are from afaik.
Receiving chapter geneseed likely normalises physical expression somewhat so that even when people come from different racial backgrounds, they end up with a particular look that is specific to their seedline while otherwise keeping their features.
Certainly the geneseed of the Luna Wolves caused many of the men to take on the features of Horus, such likely exists amongst the chapters too.

I was kind of surprised with the official route that was taken with the Salamanders, and know of at least one person who completely ignored the whole red-eye thing and continued to paint them as 'African black'. Computer games have for years given the opportunity for the player to create a black character as their protagonist.. and there must be black players of 40k who have wished to be able to have a marine chapter that represented their own ethnicity. I'm not quite sure why GW doesn't seem to be representative of any of their games (and why they must assume that all of their players must come from middle-class, white-Caucasian backgrounds?)

As was mentioned above me, the Crimson Fists would have made an ideal candidate for a Latin-style ethnicity for the same reason. But, it seemed while the GW of the late 80's might have been prepared to be inclusive to this kind of thing, modern GW has made sure that Pedro Kantor's helmet is firmly locked in place which I think again is a shame.

Although in any case TBH I don't think it's something that anyone would have a problem with whichever route was chosen. All of my Pre-Heresy World Eater characters are named from Eastern European sources and have a kind of Slavic ethnicity - I'd made up the background as them being recruited from a kind of feral, barbarian-ruled deathworld of snow filled forests and having carried that culture into the legion (something you can imagine translating into the World Eater character perfectly). Sadly, the official background seems to carry no such slant to it however.

This went from sm in general to black people. This is a good thread.

I think that the creators gave some legions distinct cultural identities, such as the SW being Scandinavian Vikings, BA having some Italian names, Ultramarines=Romans, and the White Scars being nomadic steppe warriors (as already discussed). I won't go into the Salamanders because you guys have covered it extensively. I like to think that they did it to give some flavor to the millions of SM out there instead of them all being bland Romanesque names. As many people have stated, the cultures and climate that SM recruits come from and the geneseed will directly influence their appearance and customs.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
I think Crimea was settled by either the Huns or the Mongols. Or one of the other many nomadic tribes from the Asian steppes who had a very similar culture.

The White Scars were meant to evoke the imagery and feel of nomadic horse warriors of the Mongolian, Hun, Tatar, etc persuasion.

Crimea is basically step people.

The only reason gengis khan is called khan is because that is how western history remembers him as a khan. This tenuous link is the only from the white scars to the Mongols.

Scars like raids with extreme prejudice. Neither the Huns nor the Mongols fought raids. They fought full blown wars. The fact that the steppe encourages horse mounted warfare is irrelevant.

Crimeans were a settled nomadic people who were into skirmishes rather than wars.

Well, they started fighting full-scale wars when Temujin (Genghis Khan) finally united the clans. Prior to that, they constantly raided one another and led excursions into China. I'm not trying to nitpick or anything, since you make sense when you say the WS are based off all of the nomadic steppe warriors instead of just the Mongolians, like I initially thought,

I think BA are supposed to be more renaissance painters and the like (To reflect their artisan nature)
Some chapters/regiments don't have a nationality but more of a time period...

 Pacific wrote:

As was mentioned above me, the Crimson Fists would have made an ideal candidate for a Latin-style ethnicity for the same reason. But, it seemed while the GW of the late 80's might have been prepared to be inclusive to this kind of thing, modern GW has made sure that Pedro Kantor's helmet is firmly locked in place which I think again is a shame.

As every sensible marine will do.

Every one of my chapter's marines keeps his helmet on in battle. Glad to see my favorite studio chapter does the same.

Warpig1815 531201 5712354 f550f56d6407f37a69ff024603630af4 wrote:
Possibly it's the way in which I'm interpreting your post...<snip>

It goes without saying that all human life in 40K originated on Earth and is therefore 'descended' from the same primordial goo from which sprang all the species of the Earth.

My main point was that modern racial characteristics have existed for less time than from now to the 41st Millennium and that those racial qualities as brought about through adaptation will not have magically ceased in 40K.

It would be entirely possible for 'black' 40K characters to be descended from 'white' Earth colonists and vice versa depending on the nature of the world they live on.

It would even be feasible for worlds colonised or settled during or after the Great Crusade to be home to racial groups quite dissimilar to those that settled them only several thousand years previously.

@Gogsnik - Ah, I see what you're getting at . Yeah, your perfectly right as evolution to the environment will have taken it's course - hence black people can legitamitely turn white (Let's face it, it happened on Earth) and vice versa.

Insane Smile wrote:This went from sm in general to black people. This is a good thread.

Dare I say, that's a bit of an inane post. The only reason black people are involved in this is because the thread is exploring all types of ethnicity and race in response to the OP's question. The Salamanders being retconned includes the common interpretation of them being portrayed as the African/Black ethnicity, hence why they are being included. But the thread is in no way limited just to black people, you may want to read the comments below and above yours as they explore numerous ethnicities relating to various chapters.

Pacific wrote:Computer games have for years given the opportunity for the player to create a black character as their protagonist

Surely though, that's the ambiguity that GW has built into the fluff enables you to do the same with your marines - You can paint them any which way you like, from any ethnic background as the gene-seed is the only factor that creates their distinct look. As for GW not being representative, I can sympathise with people wanting to be represented by the hobby they are participating in, but if GW were to represent every single race or ethnicity then it would exclude people who want to paint a particular chapter as an extension of themselves, to immerse themselves in the hobby, because the fluff is bound to a single ethnic type.

However, all said - forget the fluff, forget the ethnic origins - In 40K, anything goes because you're the one in charge of your hobby.

Computer games have for years given the opportunity for the player to create a black character as their protagonist

Not really. Usually it's just "caucasian features with dark skin". It is very rare to see a game that lets you play as someone who has a strong African heritage.

Melissia wrote:

Computer games have for years given the opportunity for the player to create a black character as their protagonist

Not really. Usually it's just "caucasian features with dark skin". It is very rare to see a game that lets you play as someone who has a strong African heritage.

Well I suppose it's a sliding scale.. computer games have moved more towards greater representation. Still not perfect by any means, but the situation is vastly different now to how it was even 10 years ago (although, admittedly that had a lot to do with the technology previously, and for some time it was hard enough even making something like like a human being, let alone any further detail!)

Grey Templar wrote:

 Pacific wrote:

As was mentioned above me, the Crimson Fists would have made an ideal candidate for a Latin-style ethnicity for the same reason. But, it seemed while the GW of the late 80's might have been prepared to be inclusive to this kind of thing, modern GW has made sure that Pedro Kantor's helmet is firmly locked in place which I think again is a shame.

As every sensible marine will do.

Every one of my chapter's marines keeps his helmet on in battle. Glad to see my favorite studio chapter does the same.

Har har .. yes, very good

I wouldn't think it racist if GW came out with a SM chapter or regiment of IG that was clearly African-like people and features. Its nice to see diversity in the universe, and though I'm sure all these races and backgrounds have mixed, its still a step in the right direction IMHO.

 Pacific wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Computer games have for years given the opportunity for the player to create a black character as their protagonist

Not really. Usually it's just "caucasian features with dark skin". It is very rare to see a game that lets you play as someone who has a strong African heritage.

Well I suppose it's a sliding scale..

Yes, it is. Even though ethnicity isn't.

i'm a white guy and try and paint my figs in different races, generally painting their skin a kind of generic light brown - tanned flesh.

some i paint as black people, some as pasty white folk like myself.

firstly, because i like the challenge, second because GW is pretty monocultured and needs some variety, and thirdly because my kids are mixed-race and i understand that minority ethnic kids in england can easily grow up feeling subconsciously excluded by things that don't seem inclusive to them by lack of obvious representation. daddy's hobby isn't painting white people, it's painting people. i don't blame the GW people for never seeming to have genuine non-white characters, they're all white and almost certainly never think of it. its more of an issue for me, iyswim!

I think Marine Sgt and caprain heads are generally ambiguous enough to be black or white dudes.

i also think GW avoid making one spacific black/ asaan charcter to avoid accusations of racism. Imagine if they they had just 1 black guy in the whole of the 40k universe. it owuld probably come across as more patronising than having none!

a way round this would be to paint some miniatures with ambiguous features to be black/ aisian whatever colour dudes, like i believe they used to do with catatcan, and stick them in the codex. dont draw atention, as if they are special becuase they are black, just have them in as if they are just like the rest of the army,

In all my imperial armies I have a mix of ethnicities, because I like to try different painting techniques for flesh, so making them different ethnicities means the different paint styles aren't as noticeable, plus it seems weird to me to have any one ethnicity. I've never really been anywhere that was like that. Its always been a mix.

I just remembered, the Librarian, whose name escapes me now, from Dawn of War 2 Retribution, looks like a black guy. So they have done some diversity, but I feel it should be on a broader scale.

Though that was not GW but Relic, who existed in an industry that has been under increasing pressure in recent years with how it relates to, and reacts to, gender and ethnic stereotyping.

 Psienesis wrote:
Though that was not GW but Relic, who existed in an industry that has been under increasing pressure in recent years with how it relates to, and reacts to, gender and ethnic stereotyping.

Good point, mate.

As repeated earlier, it all depends on the the person painting the army, and of course there would be many different planets and peoples of different color, from the whitest white to the darkest brown.

Also, to clarify, as I hate to read this kind of msg over and over when the planet Nocturne is brought up, the normal populace are darker skinned, the whiter people of the planet are the ones who settled themselves in the caves and underground passages of Nocturne. The main character from the Salamander novels is one such individual.

There is no way GW could ever hope to satisfy the peculiar ethnic desires of the fanbase. It makes sense to have a standard look as this makes collecting an army easier - you really don't want to have every sergeant being chinese looking and every captain being something else - it would look contrived. Better to leave that sort of local flavour to third party manufacturers.

About the marines though, what should they look like? Assuming a base marine that looks like a white guy, how should he be painted? The most common way is standard flesh tones showing untanned skin. Do marines spend so much time in their armour that they look like Darth Vader - palid soft skin from being in a protected suit most of the time plus they spend most of their life on board a ship going from fight to fight. Or should they be tanned to show years of exposure to varying planets with hard cracked skin?