So as the name indicates whos interested. I want to include an overview of all the units even the sucky ones. Certian ways to build your armys and batreps of the units in action. I will also cover the forge world stuff and Apoc (I might need some help with the Apox stuff as I don't generally play Apoc).
It will be a progressive thing that I will update as things change. I may even include some Youtube stuff later on but I won't bother if no one is interesed
I am interested. You might want to include a sub heading of allies as allies are one of the biggest things for IG (or rather IG are everyone's go to allies).
All things guard has been pretty explored. All in all most tricks have been figured out. Right now what we need to focus on as an aging codex is on tactics to combat new threats like Tau and Eldar along with the ever prevailing Necrons
Well I was going to include an allies section. So far going from everyone has said here that might be the best place to start. Guard do have the biggest selection of Allies with only Nids being the ones we can't ally with and DE being desperate they kind of suck. I've been running a few combos with GK's that might be of interest.
I've been using Blood Angels and Imperial Guard with a premise of gunline mashed with death company/dreadnought artillery. To be fair I've mainly played against necrons and vanilla space marines. It works in a few ways, especially if I get the death company dread into some strange, but overall it seems to complicate the deployment, mostly in regard to point allocation and battle field awareness. Compared to necrons I'm always outnumbered both in deployment and on the table turn one, in games around 1500pts. Not to say I can't manipulate the battlefield, but the marines soak up a hefty amount of points that need to be made up for in assault, if I deep strike in a timely fashion, and successfully. I also feel like the guard contingents can't keep up with the shooty shooty when standing alone, so again the achilles heel is dictating turn tempo. It's all a gamble, but the benefits from both factions make a fun bridge.
I've been considering running Blood Angel Allies also.
I'd take a Libby as HQ and the take a Command Squad with Apoc and 4x Vets with Melta and Flamers in Pod. For Elite I'd run a squad of 10 Sternguard with Combi-Meltas in Pod. Then for Troops I take a Tac Squad with Pod and deploy them on the table with the rest of the Gun line and drop the pod in empty. The Command Squad and Sternguard come in turn 1 and kill lots of stuff. The survivors keep on killing turn 2 until they all die and when that happens they have spent too much time focusing on them and have ignored the guard. Sounds good on paper can't wait to test it on the table.
I'll add this link to my reflections after playing 55 games with guard so far in 6th ed. It's far from comprehensive, because it only refers to things that I learned over that time. I didn't have to learn things that were obvious (like banewolves are terrible, etc.), and so they're not part of the article.
Ailaros wrote: I'll add this link to my reflections after playing 55 games with guard so far in 6th ed. It's far from comprehensive, because it only refers to things that I learned over that time. I didn't have to learn things that were obvious (like banewolves are terrible, etc.), and so they're not part of the article.
That's a great read, good to hear your thoughts on sixth. One or two questions though - why take flamer stormies in tens? Are they not just as effective in groups of 5, or are hot-shot lasguns actually capable of causing damage if you have enough of them?
It would be cool, because all the IG threads here suffer from the annoying "lol just take all these FW models you'll never actually get to use because no one in their right mind allows FW"
AlexMako wrote: It would be cool, because all the IG threads here suffer from the annoying "lol just take all these FW models you'll never actually get to use because no one in their right mind allows FW"
Except for all those gaming groups, stores and other gaming communities that openly allow them. But hey, its easier to just assume that the way your gaming group functions is the same way everyone else's functions.
AlexMako wrote: It would be cool, because all the IG threads here suffer from the annoying "lol just take all these FW models you'll never actually get to use because no one in their right mind allows FW"
Except for all those gaming groups, stores and other gaming communities that openly allow them. But hey, its easier to just assume that the way your gaming group functions is the same way everyone else's functions.
What's your point? I'm happy for you that your group allows FW, but it doesn't change the fact that every IG tactics thread being "take earthshaker platforms, sabres and vultures" isn't really useful to the majority of us who play codex.
The point is that an all encompassing IG tactics article would have to include every option available to an IG player. Said article would have to discuss every possible ally and what units to bring from that codex based on what units the IG player is bringing, and it would have to include FW units to discuss the possible combinations from those books.
The article would not only have to point out how to best use each unit, but which units fill the best roles and in their corresponding slots.
FW is an option for many players, and it should be discussed in any respectable tactics article.
Blacksails wrote: The point is that an all encompassing IG tactics article would have to include every option available to an IG player. Said article would have to discuss every possible ally and what units to bring from that codex based on what units the IG player is bringing, and it would have to include FW units to discuss the possible combinations from those books.
The article would not only have to point out how to best use each unit, but which units fill the best roles and in their corresponding slots.
FW is an option for many players, and it should be discussed in any respectable tactics article.
Except the vast majority of tournaments don't allow FW, so including those options isn't very useful. It's even less useful to roll into someone's topic and suggest all these FW units without knowing if the person in question is even able or willing to use them.
I'm fine with tactics articles having FW sections, but this trend for people to only suggest FW in topics where it isn't stated at all if FW is even available is pretty silly.
I mean even in my post where I specified "No FW suggestions" I still had people going "you can't say that!" and suggesting FW anyway.
Odd, the OP specifically mentioned he would be covering FW units in his article.
Point is, FW is becoming increasingly more popular and prevalent. On the interwebs, we have to discuss all possibilities for everyone. There are a lot of people who are interested in knowing more about FW, and discussing it helps for everyone. Feel free to ignore FW units and discussions, but they need to be included in a proper tactics thread.
Blacksails wrote: Odd, the OP specifically mentioned he would be covering FW units in his article.
Point is, FW is becoming increasingly more popular and prevalent. On the interwebs, we have to discuss all possibilities for everyone. There are a lot of people who are interested in knowing more about FW, and discussing it helps for everyone. Feel free to ignore FW units and discussions, but they need to be included in a proper tactics thread.
What's there to discuss?
"It's really expensive, only for imperial armies, and often brokenly overpowered. That's why it's banned from tournaments and isn't officially part of 40k"
That's a great read, good to hear your thoughts on sixth. One or two questions though - why take flamer stormies in tens? Are they not just as effective in groups of 5, or are hot-shot lasguns actually capable of causing damage if you have enough of them?
Yep, but it's more of a combination of their deep-striking ability combined with the AP 3 that makes them useful. Denying your opponent's cover save by deep striking behind them, combined with the AP3 (at BS 4) Can usually take out some marines. They are better when your opponent isn't MEQ, which, with cheap cultists and guard allies becoming more popular as cheap objective holders, a large squad of stormtroopers makes a good objective sweeper.
Blacksails wrote: Odd, the OP specifically mentioned he would be covering FW units in his article.
Point is, FW is becoming increasingly more popular and prevalent. On the interwebs, we have to discuss all possibilities for everyone. There are a lot of people who are interested in knowing more about FW, and discussing it helps for everyone. Feel free to ignore FW units and discussions, but they need to be included in a proper tactics thread.
What's there to discuss?
"It's really expensive, only for imperial armies, and often brokenly overpowered. That's why it's banned from tournaments and isn't officially part of 40k"
1. It's not comparitively expensive with normal GW price hikes. Not to mention price has no bearing in a tactics discussion.
2. It's not just for imperial armies, and many other codices benefit greatly from FW. Besides, a full half of current codices are Imperial armies anyways.
3. There are as many broken FW units as there are broken standard units. The overwhelming vast majority of FW units are balanced and err on the underpowered side. Disliking FW because of a few broken units should also force you to ban other OP units like the Helturkey.
4. It is a part of 40k, there are just people like you who play by a house rule that randomly forbids people from using units they bought and have rules for because it's different.
People get stuck on the deep strike potential of the STs, ignoring the other special operations that they can choose. The fact that you can pick before deployment allows you to tailor their role to the mission. Playing relic? Infiltrate or scout them to slow the enemy down, or to prevent them from infiltrating onto the relic themselves. Hammer and anvil on a terrain dense board? Maybe outflank and move through cover would be good.
I do end up using airborne assault most of the time myself. but you are paying at least some of those points for the flexibility of choice, you should at least consider the uses you can put it to.
I play Eldar, but I am maybe playing guard in the future. And I also think mech guard are the best looking army in the game, and no pushovers either (Blitzkrieg tactics). In either case, I would regularly check it.
Storm Troopers with the recon rule, granting them move throught cover, which in turn allows them to automatically pass dangerous terrain tests, meaning you can deep strike in safety within cover
Inquisitor Jex wrote: Storm Troopers with the recon rule, granting them move throught cover, which in turn allows them to automatically pass dangerous terrain tests, meaning you can deep strike in safety within cover
Yes, another good use for special operations. It is also useful after the drop, unlike the other choices which focus on being great the turn they come in. You are trading accuracy for safety though, so it is best in situations where a large scatter won't hurt you so much, such as if you are just going for line breaker.
Blacksails wrote: Odd, the OP specifically mentioned he would be covering FW units in his article.
Point is, FW is becoming increasingly more popular and prevalent. On the interwebs, we have to discuss all possibilities for everyone. There are a lot of people who are interested in knowing more about FW, and discussing it helps for everyone. Feel free to ignore FW units and discussions, but they need to be included in a proper tactics thread.
What's there to discuss?
"It's really expensive, only for imperial armies, and often brokenly overpowered. That's why it's banned from tournaments and isn't officially part of 40k"
1. It's not comparitively expensive with normal GW price hikes. Not to mention price has no bearing in a tactics discussion.
2. It's not just for imperial armies, and many other codices benefit greatly from FW. Besides, a full half of current codices are Imperial armies anyways.
3. There are as many broken FW units as there are broken standard units. The overwhelming vast majority of FW units are balanced and err on the underpowered side. Disliking FW because of a few broken units should also force you to ban other OP units like the Helturkey.
4. It is a part of 40k, there are just people like you who play by a house rule that randomly forbids people from using units they bought and have rules for because it's different.
The prime issue with tactics discussion involving FW is that for most people it's as useful as someone recommending they take a bunch of superheavies when they don't specify if a list is for Apoc or not. Most people don't allow FW in tournaments. I have gamed in 4 different locations in the last 2 years in the US, and none of them allowed FW. Why? It's imbalanced, much moreso than codex units despite FW players claims it isn't (notice how all FW lovers seem to be IG? Hmmmmm....), the rules are often obviously not proofread and very confusing, its rare to meet anyone who actually owns the rules, and its only for a few codexes, meaning all you'll see at a tournament with FW allowed is IG, SM, and maybe Necrons/Tau.
If you want to discuss FW tactics in its own section, or their own threads, sure. But for most people, they don't look at units in a vacuum, they look at a codex and army buildup by taking all units into consideration. Assuming FW is available throws all that internal balance out and replaces it with a much broader set which is not compatible with mere codex balance. That's why it's best to separate FW, and why recommending FW models to people who don't or aren't able to play them is extremely silly. It would be similar to every discussion of 2000 point lists going one way or the other on the double force org chart, when it's still something that many players don't even want to deal with.
And please, don't try the whole "Not playing FW is a house rule!" thing. They still have a specific rule in their rulesets that means you need to ask permission, a rule that isn't in any codex or official GW suppliment.
I agree with the above poster, many places I've been to in the US have been aprehensive about forge world...especially if you play IG. That said we should start discussing actual tactics rather than FW arguements.
Has anyone tried incorporating the Fortress of redeption in an artillary list. Im thinking an Infantry blob upfront soaking wounds and claiming forward objectives, behind that a fortess of redemption with krak storm upgrade maned by either Vets or ratlings due to high BS... And finally behind that a trio or more of heavy artillary Griffons, Medussas, Bassilisks, even maybe a Coloussus or the ever hilarious death strike.
The only thing I'd note about the FW thing is that people who like FW stuff need to understand that their viewpoint isn't a universal truth, and you just need to convert the heathens to see what is plainly accurate rather than their mindless superstitions. Without a basic level of respect, it's going to be possible to understand people's frustration when you give FW advice.
Because imagine that someone needed help with guard, and the first several people to give advice was "well, you should ally in some tyranid units". That's not useful advice, because the person receiving the message can't ally in tyranid units. Regardless of what your stance on the legality of FW stuff is, if you're a person playing in a place where you can't use FW, then any advice about FW is going to be just as useless.
And annoying if the only advice being given is advice that isn't relevant to them.
BryllCream wrote: One or two questions though - why take flamer stormies in tens? Are they not just as effective in groups of 5, or are hot-shot lasguns actually capable of causing damage if you have enough of them?
Yes, in theory. I've had hellguns kill stuff on rare occasion. Most of the time, though, my opponents are going to be bringing vehicles or putting stuff into cover. The reason you bother with a squad of 10 is because you get 10 guys.
This means, for example, that when you drop and attack something, rather than getting immediately wiped out, you'll have at least a few guys left to charge something with krak grenades or to get into close combat with that unit that you ripped apart with flamers. 5 stormies, for example, can't necessarily beat 10 scouts on an objective. The stormies kill, say 3 or 4, the scouts kill 2 or 3, and then it's going to be a fight between a pair of stormies and twice their number of scouts. The strategic impact of the stormies is limited. Meanwhile, with the 10-man squad, the stormies kill 4 or 5, the scouts kill 2 or 3, and then it's 5 scouts against 7 stormtroopers - a fight that the stormies can actually win. If those scouts were the only scoring unit nearby, it's the difference between a wounded scout squad holding an objective and your opponent having lost his objective.
A suicide squad of stormies can only kill some small amount of stuff, and then that's it, they're generally wiped out. You can kind of think of them as a hunter-killer weapon where you get to shoot it once, and then that's that. With 10-man stormtrooper squads, much more likely than not someone will actually survive the drop, which means not only more damage, but a possible change in the strategic situation in the game. Drop 30 stormtroopers somewhere, and that can completely change the way the game goes, as very likely your opponent just lost an objective, and has to take it back from 30 dudes with a 4+/4 or 3+ cover save. That's rather a different story than the one told by suicide squads.
Interestingly enough, I played a game two days ago where I decided to dig out a 10-man flamer stormie squad. I was up against a tzeentch CSM list, so they basically weren't going to be killing anything. Instead, I dropped them way over on the complete opposite side of the board and then, once on foot, ran them into the corner and spread out. The only way my opponent could hurt them was by wasting time picking off a couple at a time with bale flamers (rather than attacking my much more vulnerable infantry on my objectives). In the end, he killed half of them by vector strike as the helldrakes repeatedly came back on the board, but the end result was dudes that got linebreaker. That's what won me the game.
In this case, the stormtroopers didn't even fire their weapons once in anger, but because of their special mobility combined with their extra durability of being a 10-man squad, and the strategic impact won me the game.
So, tldr, 5-man stormies are a tactical weapon, 10-man squads are a strategic one.
AlexMako wrote: The prime issue with tactics discussion involving FW is that for most people it's as useful as someone recommending they take a bunch of superheavies when they don't specify if a list is for Apoc or not.
No it isn't. The rules as written by GW state that you can use FW but can't use superheavies. So suggesting FW units is discussing the standard game and it's up to the person asking for advice to say "I have a no-FW house rule", just like if they had a no-flyers house rule or a no-more-than-two-dedicated-transports house rule. On the other hand superheavies are NOT part of the standard game so unless someone says that they're playing with a superheavies-allowed house rule talking about them is a waste of time.
(notice how all FW lovers seem to be IG? Hmmmmm....)
Oh good, this old myth. I play Tau and I love my FW units. For example, I get a decent flyer instead of the codex garbage. Same with Eldar, and Necrons just got some really nice stuff.
It would be similar to every discussion of 2000 point lists going one way or the other on the double force org chart, when it's still something that many players don't even want to deal with.
You're right, it's like that. Every discussion of 2000+ point lists should involve double FOC (or at least the possibility of using it if it benefits the army) unless it is specifically stated that there is a "no double FOC" house rule in effect.
They still have a specific rule in their rulesets that means you need to ask permission, a rule that isn't in any codex or official GW suppliment.
No they don't. It says you SHOULD tell your opponent in advance, to be polite. It does not say that you MUST do it.
I like forgeworld but to make your advice be use forgeworld isnt very good, some people dont have access to forgeworld, some people want just what is in their codex and not try to deviate too much cause thats that much more memorizing. Forgeworld is never a mandatory option and should never be, to me its kinda like apocalypses, its an add-on, a supplement. not to be mistaken for a must have codex expansion.
Now onto vendettas, i am an IG player, i dont like vendettas. It seems like every other IG player calls players like me trash for not taking one, and thats a pretty sad narrow view point. i hear all the time "wanna win with IG always use vendettas, you cant win without them!" yeah i get it they are good, but not a must have, nor should ever be. I personnally dont like fliers, not enough armies have been updated to 6th yet to give a fair advantage to everyone. As of right now fliers are horribly unbalanced in the game cause not many older armies have a counter. My local area doesnt use fliers unless they go to a tourney in another town cause around here we all agreed that they throw the balance off and it doesnt make for fun, hard fought games. Now when every army gets their new codex in 6ths and has options to fight fliers without taking them, then yeah ill run vendettas, but until then i just dont see them as a must take unit.
IG can still be a dominant force without vendettas, my mvp unit seems to be my CCS, his orders swing the tides of battle. Might not be a monster beastly unit that single handily wipes units, but life is about inches, and my CCS gives me those inches, from the astropath making sure stormtroopers drop, the Officer of the fleet stopping my opponents drops, to issuing bring it down to help take out a landraider or first rank fire second rank fire to cut a swath into a tyranid zerg rush. I play hybrid IG and that CCS and my lord commissar are the real winners of my games.
Solosam47 wrote: I like forgeworld but to make your advice be use forgeworld isnt very good, some people dont have access to forgeworld, some people want just what is in their codex and not try to deviate too much cause thats that much more memorizing. Forgeworld is never a mandatory option and should never be, to me its kinda like apocalypses, its an add-on, a supplement. not to be mistaken for a must have codex expansion.
GW disagrees with you. FW is part of the standard game of 40k.
Now, you can obviously choose whether or not to use them, but that's no different than a personal preference to use storm troopers instead of Marbo. Obviously Marbo is not mandatory but if you don't want "take Marbo" as advice then you need to say that you don't like Marbo and won't use him.
Now onto vendettas, i am an IG player, i dont like vendettas.
Solution: every time you start an advice thread say "Vendettas are too powerful for my opponents so I don't want to use them". This is the tactics forum and it's assumed that your goal is to maximize your chances of winning, if you want to play with self-imposed limits to help your opponents then you need to make those limits clear.
A note to all about the thread. I metioned I would include Forge World however I won't be basing the entire thred on winning with Forge World. I want to go through as many different ways to play guard as possible. That includes ways to play and win with guard that doesn't include Forge World. Personally I feel.the Vendetta with a cheep scoring unit on board is the most usefull unit guard have and guess what its codex not forge world. Does that mean it will be a tactics thread on the Vendetta. No I will include all the options from the fast attack section as well. Most people realise that there there are other options in there as well right?
It its going to be a long thread and a real head ache fo write and will be written in pieces. I will start with Allies as several people have mentioned that interests them. I will then proceed to write about unit overviews, tactics and army builds. I should be finished just in time for a new guard codex realese to invalidate everything.
@peregrine yeah ok FW is part now I get that (as much as I still am on the boarder with it) but yeah this is a tactics thread and its about winning, but it also means that we discuss tactics to win without vendettas. Correct me if I'm wrong but that's tactics right? To just say to win is to take vendettas is like saying my tactic is to chuck my rock at them. Is that your kind of tactics? Use what is best so you don't have to think? Cause wow that is an amazing tactic. Lets all just use the best thing at the time and not actually try to out think someone. No offense but I like to play with a little more thought process and that is what I believe tactics forums are for. How to make best use of what you want to use. Not of what others say is good.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Not trying to start anything but there are other ways to maximize your chances without just taking the best unit.
kestril wrote: *Sigh* So, we've hit the FW debate as soon as the second page. How long until someone brings up Marbo? or AC vs Lascannons?
@kestril lol just give it another few days and i can bet that you'll have your answer
Anyways for the OP, once again as Solosam47 said, this is a game of tactics and strategy. Yes you will inevitably run across those " Win At All Costs!" kinds of players but if you do find a gaming group that works for you then I envy you all the more. as far as FW, I'll say this. If you wanna play it and no one bothers you for it, that's great. If you want to avoid it, be my guest. No one is screaming in your face that you, "Have to take this unit or you suck", so when in doubt, do as they say at Mcdonalds... Have it YOUR way.
For me, I tend to look at the Codex and take everything I can find, in terms of help and tactica, and apply a pinch to half a bucket of salt to it while searching for tactical advice on my IG. The only true way for you to know what is a solid unit, and what fails in the face of adversity is to try it out yourself. Sure it seems like a daunting task but you have to remember that NOT every single unit or strategy need be tested. Only those that either appeal to you, or provide the support you need when needed in your grand master plan you have boiling in that evil mind of yours.
Also if you are able, look to some batreps that have said unit and use that to "help" base an idea off of how a unit performs in actual combat. with this process you can help yourself to the wealth of knowledge granted by some of the more level-headed veterans while filtering out the stuff that is based merely on poor attitude or an unsound tactical mind.
Either way, I look forward to an IG tactica thread.
@kestril your right sorry bout that, lets get back on track!
Since you mentioned Marbo ill just start with a quick deal on him.
I love me some Marbo, he is one of the most unique units in any codex I think, both background and on the table. I use a converted necron as mine. Lol he is like the t1000 from terminator.
Before I used to never run him and I'd use the 65 points elsewhere but now I always run him, he usually dies but I have never played a more fun model. His det pack, his no scatter, and his 4 attacks/5 on the charge with a poisoned knife are so fun. I am not sure on a lot of people's stance on him but if due to him I lose more games I'm not worried, I dig him.
When running him I usually drop him behind a troop choice that most relevantly threatens one of my chimeras. I have read where people like to take him to hunt hqs and warlords but I need them vets to survive till they get in position.
On another note, do you guys prefer carapace armor or camo cloaks for your vets?
Automatically Appended Next Post: @cyrus_stormshadow well said. Kinda what I was thinking but I can't help but sound argumentive sometimes.
Playing with the unit is a hell of a lot better than listening to most threads. I use the forums as a base then build my decision off that. It's nice having a group too that will let you proxy bigger stuff like LRBT or basalisks before you get one. The forums help for sure but your meat and potatoes comes from good ol battles. Since one persons meta is different from another's you never really know what will bring home the win before you try it. It's like flayed ones from necron, I see a lot of people saying they are bad but I have been tore up by a few before and not ashamed to admit it. My opponent was a good player and knew how to work the field to his advantage.
Solosam47 wrote: @kestril your right sorry bout that, lets get back on track!
Since you mentioned Marbo ill just start with a quick deal on him.
I love me some Marbo, he is one of the most unique units in any codex I think, both background and on the table. I use a converted necron as mine. Lol he is like the t1000 from terminator.
Before I used to never run him and I'd use the 65 points elsewhere but now I always run him, he usually dies but I have never played a more fun model. His det pack, his no scatter, and his 4 attacks/5 on the charge with a poisoned knife are so fun. I am not sure on a lot of people's stance on him but if due to him I lose more games I'm not worried, I dig him.
When running him I usually drop him behind a troop choice that most relevantly threatens one of my chimeras. I have read where people like to take him to hunt hqs and warlords but I need them vets to survive till they get in position.
On another note, do you guys prefer carapace armor or camo cloaks for your vets?
Automatically Appended Next Post: @cyrus_stormshadow well said. Kinda what I was thinking but I can't help but sound argumentive sometimes.
Playing with the unit is a hell of a lot better than listening to most threads. I use the forums as a base then build my decision off that. It's nice having a group too that will let you proxy bigger stuff like LRBT or basalisks before you get one. The forums help for sure but your meat and potatoes comes from good ol battles. Since one persons meta is different from another's you never really know what will bring home the win before you try it. It's like flayed ones from necron, I see a lot of people saying they are bad but I have been tore up by a few before and not ashamed to admit it. My opponent was a good player and knew how to work the field to his advantage.
@solosam47 no worries bro, we all sound like that some days. (Even if it is to the mirror. I swear that took the last Kit-Kat bar) And as you say, let's get back on topic!
As solosam47 has shown, it's not merely about what the stats show, or even how the current meta is. It's all about What/When/Where/How something's applied in regards to your overall strategy or grand scheme. If you play test something and find that it doesn't bring to the table what you were hoping for, then no worries! look for something different that does what you want it to accomplish and try it out and see if that is what you feel better with. This is especially helpful as Solosam47 has said, ( nice idea btw ) if you have a group of fellow gamers that are able to help you out with proxy stuff to see if something is worth investing in.
@Solosam47 as far as camo or carapace, I tend to lean more towards camo-cloaks then carapace for a few things but on vets it's a close choice. mostly depends on if I am running and gunning or sticking them in cover.
Solosam47 wrote: Not trying to start anything but there are other ways to maximize your chances without just taking the best unit.
And all of them work just as well with a strong list as with a weak list. There isn't some bizarre choice between Vendettas or good strategy, and a player with Vendettas and good strategy will beat a good player with a weak list.
On another note, do you guys prefer carapace armor or camo cloaks for your vets?
I prefer camo cloaks, they allow a potentially higher save in ruins (3+). Plus, a cover save is harder to get rid of at range, so you still get a save vs AP 4 and below weapons, which is pretty big. And, if the enemy was close enough to nullify my cover save with a flamer, those guardsmen would probably be dead soon anyways. I find vets arn't really an offensive weapon, and the only way I've consistently snagged an objective with them is by infiltrating onto it at the start, or dumping them out the back of a Valkyrie.
Furthermore, you gain infiltrate, which is very useful during deployment.
Hey thx for the advise! Yeah usually I run mine with the cloaks for the slightly better save but I sometimes find my chimeras getting blown in the open, and well vets are not the best foot sloggers.
Right now my fav vet loadout is with the two flamers and one heavy flamer. I get them up a little in mid field, drop em in cover and use them to fry infantry that comes my way. If vehicles come by the vets usually have cover fire from my H. Weapons teams or LRBT. I know the saying is you buy vets for the BS 4, and I used to run em for that but idk maybe it's luck, but I just have better results.
One thing that probably helps tho is my meta loves urban setting lol. Every now and then me do a board that is rolling hills but for the most part we love ghost towns and overgrown cities
Right now my fav vet loadout is with the two flamers and one heavy flamer. I get them up a little in mid field, drop em in cover and use them to fry infantry that comes my way. If vehicles come by the vets usually have cover fire from my H. Weapons teams or LRBT. I know the saying is you buy vets for the BS 4, and I used to run em for that but idk maybe it's luck, but I just have better results.
That only really works if the enemy charges headlong into your vet squad. Many opponents I know would rather stay back and deal with seven lasgun shots rather than charge forward into flamers. In any case, I'd drop the heavy flamer and just stick another regular flamer on if you're dead-set on running midfield flamers. The HF is waaay overcosted and you could put the points somewhere else.
Also, you sacrifice a lot of flexibility by taking flamers. Lasguns already are good against light infantry at BS4. Flamers are good against light infantry, so that veteran squad has very little flexibility in what it can damage. Plasma or melta, however, allows the vets to perform against heavy infantry, vehicles, and light infantry. They are way more flexible for a mere 15 more points (for X3 melta), and have about the same effective range.
This means if your HWS are taken out early (which they can be, easily at T3, thanks to all this STR 7, AP 4 that everyone has), your flamer vets are pretty screwed if you needed those lascannons/autocannons to take out anything that's not light infantry approaching them.
I usually use my flamers on things that I can get close to use those flamers, rather than relying on my opponent to get in range. Stormtroopers, outflanking sentinels, or a fireball PCS are all options.
Solosam47 wrote: @easysause so how are you running your ccIG? i recently started using black templar to carry my cc half but im always curious to hear new ideas.
Solosam47 wrote: @easysause so how are you running your ccIG? i recently started using black templar to carry my cc half but im always curious to hear new ideas.
hmm valid point @kestril we play alot of urban tables in my group so i can usually get behind a builfing i know my opponent has to walk by lol. but yeah so i think i will try dropping the heavy flamer for maybe plasma, altho never have too good luck with gets hot.
@easysause do you run orgyn in your cc list? i have been looking at them lately and really wanting to try them lol.
A little cc adds alot to IG i think and im loving allying them with my BT over my DA now lol even tho i doubt its as "competitive" by forum standards.
I like carapace a little better than camo cloaks, personally. If all you're wanting to do is plant a scoring unit somewhere, you can already get a 2+ or 3+ cover save by going to ground in ruins, or behind a hill/aegis. Furthermore, camo cloaks don't help you against those kinds of things specifically designed to take out units like vets hiding on an objective (like heavy incinerators, bale flamers, etc.).
Meanwhile, the carapace upgrade means that you are proofed against a small class of said weapons (regular flamers, mostly), but, more importantly, that you're not so beholden to cover. With the ability to save against bolters and the like, it means that your vet squad isn't stuck being an expensive, immobile lascannon platform.
With carapace, you can still get the 2+ or 3+ cover save, but you also get the flexibility of being able to move around outside of said one piece of cover if you need to.
@ailaros I brought up which is better specifically because of the bolters, I had a game the other day where I was caught slippin out in the open and being shot at by basic bolters... Which made me realize they really do eat thru my guard unless I'm well protected. I usually have em in good cover with the cloaks but you know what they say, once bitten, twice shy. So now I'm at a kick ass delema of which to use.
I have ogryns just because they are cool models to pain (i have the OOP ones)
they are decent, and if you are going to make a non competitive CC orentated guard army, then GO FOR IT!
maxxed ogryns, with a couple 50 guardmens blobs running cover, and some rough riders, might actually win a few games for you.
It really lets you heroically sacrifice wave after wave of your own men until the enemy gives up.
that being said, my competitive guard list has basically no CC, just a few rough riders to counter charge should some marines or somethign get too close.
Blacksails wrote: The point is that an all encompassing IG tactics article would have to include every option available to an IG player. Said article would have to discuss every possible ally and what units to bring from that codex based on what units the IG player is bringing, and it would have to include FW units to discuss the possible combinations from those books.
The article would not only have to point out how to best use each unit, but which units fill the best roles and in their corresponding slots.
FW is an option for many players, and it should be discussed in any respectable tactics article.
Except the vast majority of tournaments don't allow FW, so including those options isn't very useful.
1. Just because it's not very usefull to you doesn't mean it's not very usefull at all.
2. Not all players participate in tournaments
I mean even in my post where I specified "No FW suggestions" I still had people going "you can't say that!" and suggesting FW anyway.
I used to be like that where I would want one thing and one thing only in the thread but this is a online community it's not about what 1 person wants. If you don't like the idea of FW units being covered then either don't read those parts or don't read the thread. Don't throw a fit because it isn't usefull to you.
If people are not to offended I'd like to contribute my (so far terrible) experiences with my DKoK assault brigade. I'd be interested in standard codex tactics as well particularly strategies to deal with new army books and common builds. I'm happy to use either list to build an army and interested in both the 'core' game and FW lists.
When I run vets I normally don't bother with Carapace or Camo cloaks. I have run with Demolitions before though a few times and love it. I set them up with 3x Meltas, 6x Shotguns and sarge with shotgun and powerfist (Considering converting the cultist guy from DV with the shotgun to be a cool looking sarge. Everyone in the squad gets melta bombs and one also gets a demo charge. I just drop them out of a plane and run around killing things. The have the ability to shoot and assault whatever they want but die horribly to just about anything.
Ailaros wrote: If all you're wanting to do is plant a scoring unit somewhere, you can already get a 2+ or 3+ cover save by going to ground in ruins, or behind a hill/aegis.
What camo cloaks do is allow you to get that 2+/3+ cover save without going to ground. So, for example, that Harker squad sitting on the quad gun has a 2+ cover save while still shooting at full effectiveness. And that's important when you're talking about a 100+ point veteran squad. GTG is for platoon meatshields that don't bring enough shooting that you care about losing it.
Meanwhile, the carapace upgrade means that you are proofed against a small class of said weapons (regular flamers, mostly), but, more importantly, that you're not so beholden to cover. With the ability to save against bolters and the like, it means that your vet squad isn't stuck being an expensive, immobile lascannon platform.
But it also means that you never get better than a 4+ without going to ground and being useless. A Harker squad in good cover has a 2+ against everything. A carapace squad moving out into the open has a 4+ against light weapons like bolters, but no save at all against heavier weapons. And since small T3/4+ units still aren't all that durable it's hard to justify paying 30% more points on a melta squad to give it a situational armor save.
I run a cheap ccs, i use it mainly for the astropath, officer of the fleet or master of ordinance. they mainly sit in a chimera or outta site and only special thing i really do to them is give them a mortar so they can still do some shooting.
im thinking of doing a more aggesive set up tho and maybe have creed in it. My main HQ now tho is the lord commissar, i find his aura of discipline, L10, and stubborn are working better for my more recent lists. I just toss him in a blob and work his magic.
Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote: I'm sure it varies depending on army build but how do people run their CCS, what equipment do you guys give the squad and what options do you take?
4x melta in a Vendetta/Chimera. Now that everyone is getting a new MC I might consider taking 4x plasma instead. The only other upgrade I would even consider is taking 2x plasma pistols on the commander, if I have points to spare and can't think of anything better to do.
I've run a dual Plasma Pistol Commander with 4x Plasma guns. The commander for some reason always rolls a 6 & a 1 when rolling to hit. When I fist started using plasma I was afraid jt was going to kill the whole squad that I ran them with Carapace and a medic. I've since dropped the Medic and I only run carapace if I havw left over points. The beauty of them being in the command squad is that they can command Bring it Down on themselves or Fire on my Target. If yoyr running them in a Vendetta take a Lord Commisar to stick in the back field as the CCS will give away an easy slay the warlord. 130pts for 10 Plasma shots with possible re-roll to hit or forced re-rolls to save can be pretty potent way of spending points. Mist armys will have a target for them to shoot at.
An often over looked tactic with plasma is shooting down flyers. I have had a few a games where a skyfire objective has popped up and the plasma vets have taken it over and shot down a flyer or two. Bring it down has also allowed a few units to re-roll there 1's to not die and even have another shot at rolling a 6 to hit. Divination allies have also helped out this way as well.
I use platoons, to I got a standard for morale and a vox to help with orders. I got with double plasmaguns to give a little AP2 punch to my army, the officer usually have a boltgun to be useful at 24 inches.
Both Standard and Vox got lasguns as well.
I use to run them all with laspistols and CCW with a meltagun and medipack, but the small number of bodies the squad got made them weak overall (only useful at 12 inches, and at that range you'll get assaulted for sure.) and most things can insta death you so I'll use that 30 pts for an astropath instead.
Ive gotten pretty bored with my guard lately, not sure if anyone else has noticed it but with the newest codex's it seems that most of the units in the codex can be used in a competitive way and still be really fun. Now I know there are some units in the codexs that arent competitive or playable but it still seems like the majority are.
With Guard it seems like you need to run artillery, foot horde to sit home and have vendettas fly out and drops guys off to capture late objectives.
It seems that out of a lot of the codex's guard has a lot of useless units that just dont seem to benefit a lot of the main stream armies that are still mildly competitive(foot and mech guard). Such units would be the ogryns and ratlings, penal legion, storm troops, conscripts, some leman russ, rough riders, Valkyrie, and thats most of them to be said.
you can argue that each of those units has its own roll but it seems like if you use any of those units they wont benefit your army.
To be honest the majority of those units Ive never even seen been played. Storm troops can be good but as others mentioned they come in killing something and thats about it, they are also very pricey and veterans are arguably a better choice.
Never seen rough riders but I could assume they are good for that first charge if they make it across the board with there bad save.
Never seen a list run with penal legion.
Ive seen some ratlings used with gunline armies.
I actually tried chenkov out with a 40 man blob of conscripts and it was rather fun bringing the squad back over and over but I played against x4 daemon prince army so they were essentially usesless no matter how many shots they pumped out.
It sucks the LRBT and demolisher got nerfed a bit, I was sad that a couple of my LRBT's had to lose their sponsons and my older models that had a lascannon hull and bolter sponsons are just shelved now, but I guess its a plus that the other Leman russ are more playable although if shot at are hard to kill but once your opponent assaults them are just as easy to kill as any other russ.
It seems that allies give guard a lot of bonuses such as better scoring units on the other side of the board, and characters to buff guard blobs to hold objectives.
A build I run is with SW's: a Rune priest with divination prescience to buff blob and units around, 2 hunter squads with standards, and MotW with either plasma or melta guns in drop pods and then a long fang squad with a pod that will come in empty. The rune priest buffs blob/ units, long fangs use missile spam and help with gunline shooting. The 2 hunter units will drop in turn 1 and attack what I feel is a good target and will be a successful attack so they manage to still stay alive. The empty pod just comes in to block enemies movement or just use the storm bolter to pick off units.
Ive been looking at other space marine armies and wanting to try many different builds to get some different models and not be so bored with my IG. Ive heard azrael with DA to buff a blob, but what else would you run with the DA's
I also love Leman russ so I would love to hear of some lists with them if anyones got any, Sorry to say I dont have Forge world or the armored battle group would be awesome.
A lot of people like to run there DA's allies as MSU. There basic tact squad of 5 guys with a melta gun and SGT with Combi-melta in a pod. There libby is cheap and access to Div and cam.get wargear that grants night vision and/or a 4++ invo save to units within a certian radius.
tankboy145 wrote:With Guard it seems like you need to run artillery, foot horde to sit home and have vendettas fly out and drops guys off to capture late objectives.
Thankfully, that's not actually true.
Anyone can click here for over a half dozen different ways to play guard. Particularly interesting ones to play for me were the stormtrooper spam, said send in the next wave antics, and mechvets+hellhounds.
Over the last year, I've never run vendettas and have only run artillery a scattering of times. You can do just fine without either.
Oh wow thattt 4++ for a blob would be really nice, It would allow the blob to advance and take less casualties for being in the open.
Ailaros: I will have to read through some of your reports again as Im curious on how to make use of storm troopers and conscripts, I assume conscripts would really only be good with chenkov as you could always hold a home field objective, although if thats the case I usually prefer to have lascannon infantry squads take up my deployment zone instead.
tankboy145 wrote:With Guard it seems like you need to run artillery, foot horde to sit home and have vendettas fly out and drops guys off to capture late objectives.
Thankfully, that's not actually true.
Anyone can click here for over a half dozen different ways to play guard. Particularly interesting ones to play for me were the stormtrooper spam, said send in the next wave antics, and mechvets+hellhounds.
Over the last year, I've never run vendettas and have only run artillery a scattering of times. You can do just fine without either.
Just read your batrep where you opponents Vets dropped out of a Vendetta with there attached Warlord and then mishapped and died. You would have definatly scored Slay the warlord but I don't think it would have given up first blood as you didn't personaly kill the unit. I have also been wonding if I was to drop pod in some MEQ Allies and then scatter an Earthshaker round onto top of them and kill them would I get first blood even if they are my units. I should because I killed them. Make sence? I'm pretty sure first isn't given out to the player who doesn't lose the first unit but I'm going to have to look into that one. Something for you all ponder for awhile.
Aren't you the same person who constantly posts about how foot guard is dead and Chimera spam is the only way to win (because Vendettas are either too overpowered or too weak)?
You can do just fine without either.
But you'll do better with both. The only reason not to take Vendettas is if you're playing under arbitrary self-imposed limits about playing with powerful units.
Aren't you the same person who constantly posts about how foot guard is dead and Chimera spam is the only way to win (because Vendettas are either too overpowered or too weak)?
You can do just fine without either.
But you'll do better with both. The only reason not to take Vendettas is if you're playing under arbitrary self-imposed limits about playing with powerful units.
If we are going to open this can of worms and discus everything IG related then how many Vendettas would you say is good at the common point levels of 1000, 1250, 1500, 1850, and 2000 (with and without double FOC) respectively? And what do they they synergize with best mech or foot, or a combination of both?
Spartan089 wrote: If we are going to open this can of worms and discus everything IG related then how many Vendettas would you say is good at the common point levels of 1000, 1250, 1500, 1850, and 2000 (with and without double FOC) respectively?
Minimum of 1 at all times (except maybe in a 500 point game where you're taking LRBTs), 2-3 Vulture/Vendetta at 1000-1250, automatic three at anything larger (and considering Avengers at higher point levels). If you're playing double FOC at 2000 you're taking 4+, but I don't know why you'd want to play at 2000+ or use double FOC.
And what do they they synergize with best mech or foot, or a combination of both?
Either, but somewhat leaning foot. Aircraft are their own target type so target saturation works about as well both ways (especially with Sabres and earthshakers in a foot list to saturate mid-strength shooting), but mech and Vendettas is a bit redundant since both are delivering small squads with lots of special weapons and you don't really have a good objective holder. With a foot list you can have the foot blob lock down your "home" objectives while the Vendettas take the other half of the table.
Aren't you the same person who constantly posts about how foot guard is dead and Chimera spam is the only way to win (because Vendettas are either too overpowered or too weak)?
You can do just fine without either.
But you'll do better with both. The only reason not to take Vendettas is if you're playing under arbitrary self-imposed limits about playing with powerful units.
Aren't you the same person who constantly posts as if nobody can enjoy playing this game in a manner other than beating their opponent with copy-pasted lists? There are a ton of reasons to not take Vendettas in an Imperial Guard army; your inability to remove yourself from a dogmatic and unimaginative WAAC mindset is astounding and your assertions are insulting.
tankboy, I don't remember him using Conscripts for anything other than Chenkov's special rule. Normal conscripts are 80% the cost of normal guard squads and seem to lose way more stats than that 20% cost decrease justifies, so they seem like a poor choice to use naked when an IG army will almost never run out of space for infantry blobs.
Talore wrote: There are a ton of reasons to not take Vendettas in an Imperial Guard army; your inability to remove yourself from a dogmatic and unimaginative WAAC mindset is astounding and your assertions are insulting.
Like what? Keep in mind that we're in the tactics forum, not the modeling and painting forum or the "I have fun with this unit" forum, so discussion is expected to be focused on how to win the game and not subjective ideas about what is "fun" for each person.
Whelp. It's good to know not much has changed since I've been on a few month's haitus.
Page 1: New guard topic
Page 2: FW debate
Page 3: Ailaros and Peregrine fight. TO THE DEATH
I swear I think those two have a hate-crush on each other sometimes.
If we are going to open this can of worms and discus everything IG related then how many Vendettas would you say is good at the common point levels of 1000, 1250, 1500, 1850, and 2000 (with and without double FOC) respectively? And what do they they synergize with best mech or foot, or a combination of both?
At lower points, you have to design your list around the 'dettas, because they are more of an investment. At medium to high points, vendettas are more of a complement to a solid core of the list, and not the core of it. Unless you're doing something crazy, like air calv.
Talore wrote: There are a ton of reasons to not take Vendettas in an Imperial Guard army; your inability to remove yourself from a dogmatic and unimaginative WAAC mindset is astounding and your assertions are insulting.
Like what? Keep in mind that we're in the tactics forum, not the modeling and painting forum or the "I have fun with this unit" forum, so discussion is expected to be focused on how to win the game and not subjective ideas about what is "fun" for each person.
Keep in mind that we're in the tactics forum, not the WAAC forum or the "let's pretend that this is a video game rather than a hobby" forum. Discussion is expected to be focused on tactics, as in the methods to utilize battlefield resources and not making ignorant blanket statements about people that decide to not use vendettas using the excuse of the tactics forum.
One may experiment with units. One may be facing an opponent or a metagame which overcompensates on attacking air units. One may face other (local) metagame considerations which leave vendettas as an subpar or unfavourable choice. One may have legitimate doubts as to the universal superiority of a vendetta in every list ever. One may not own the models. One may be running a themed list. One may not be an effective player of flying units or specifically vendettas. One may have a list where the points would be better spent in different areas or different roles.
I could go on but this isn't really the point. The point is that this is a hobby and that tactics encompass more than how you think the game should be played. So don't demean people by claiming that the only reason they wouldn't play the game like you want them to is because they have "arbitrary self-imposed limits about playing with powerful units." You don't know every circumstance that an IG player will face, so making blanket statements like that is ridiculously ignorant.
Ive noticed that after a couple games with the conscripts they just didnt seem to ever really do much, with a gunline army I usually had infantry squads with lascannons sitting in my back field so the conscripts were out of place.
I will experiment with the storm troopers a little bit and see how they go. All the doctrines seem interesting as well. I might try throwing the guys in a chimera to add to a mechanized list and have them scout ahead of the rest.
Talore wrote: There are a ton of reasons to not take Vendettas in an Imperial Guard army; your inability to remove yourself from a dogmatic and unimaginative WAAC mindset is astounding and your assertions are insulting.
Like what? Keep in mind that we're in the tactics forum, not the modeling and painting forum or the "I have fun with this unit" forum, so discussion is expected to be focused on how to win the game and not subjective ideas about what is "fun" for each person.
Keep in mind that we're in the tactics forum, not the WAAC forum or the "let's pretend that this is a video game rather than a hobby" forum. Discussion is expected to be focused on tactics, as in the methods to utilize battlefield resources and not making ignorant blanket statements about people that decide to not use vendettas using the excuse of the tactics forum.
One may experiment with units. One may be facing an opponent or a metagame which overcompensates on attacking air units. One may face other (local) metagame considerations which leave vendettas as an subpar or unfavourable choice. One may have legitimate doubts as to the universal superiority of a vendetta in every list ever. One may not own the models. One may be running a themed list. One may not be an effective player of flying units or specifically vendettas. One may have a list where the points would be better spent in different areas or different roles.
I could go on but this isn't really the point. The point is that this is a hobby and that tactics encompass more than how you think the game should be played. So don't demean people by claiming that the only reason they wouldn't play the game like you want them to is because they have "arbitrary self-imposed limits about playing with powerful units." You don't know every circumstance that an IG player will face, so making blanket statements like that is ridiculously ignorant.
+1
A tactics thread is NOT focused on "absolute best way to win every game as provided by one person". It's a discussion of various options and possibilities for everyone to use covering most if not all options.
..... We already had the tactics arguement on page two, lets get back to talking about units please,
@tankboy145 I haven't used conscripts but I do use storm troopers often, I mainly go with the suicide squads with meltas to pop my opponents heavy stuff that might be out of my line of sight, but if I go against MEQ I find a 10 with their hotshots eat marines up and will survive some light Bolter fire to boot. It's fun to play around with the doctrines to see what tactics you can come up with but for now I usually get my value from deepstrike
Automatically Appended Next Post: @talore peregrine is just stubborn, some of his advice is solid but just take the rest with a shovel of salt and don't feed into him. Your right in your views for tactics so let's just keep the ball rolling with that.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @ailaros way awesome site, thank you for sharing that. I will for sure be a regular to it now lol love the set up. props bro, props
Try not to be off-put by Peregrine's tone. His advice is solid.
So is Ailaros on occasion.
Those two just don't see eye-to-eye. Still, the value of their discussion is there, so ignoring one or the other hurts the discussion more than it helps.
I'd like to see a discussion of the other options available to the Valkyrie/Vendetta. I find that I lean towards the Valk more if I don't need a dedicated anti-air role. IMO, the real value of the transport is keeping whatever is inside alive rather than it's killing potential. I find that the HB sponsons combined with the MRP on the normal Valk can stack enough wounds on marines to make up for the lack of low AP, and can deal way more damage to hordes.
I'm still considering the usefulness of the helldetta, the vendetta with hellfury missiles and heavy bolter sponsons replacing 2 lascannons. If I just need something to buzz around long enough to drop some vets on an objective later, I'm not going to shoot those missiles much anyway due to the restrictions on flier movement (and I'm not going to hover if my focus is keeping the vets inside alive for a late-game objective grab), and ignoring cover is a nice thing to have when there's a unit of pathfinders ducking behind some ruins, or a guard blob hugging their defence line. It's basically a Valkyrie+, and you get a TL lascannon for free.
I feel like the helldetta is trying to do to much. The lascannon would be great for armor, flyers, and teq but the missiles seem to be good against horde. I think the missle pods and a multi laser and the vendetta is about the best you will get.
Problem with the missile pods is that they're ordinance so you can only fire one and snap shoot the rest. Otherwise I'd have invested in some valkyries ages ago.
BryllCream wrote: Problem with the missile pods is that they're ordinance so you can only fire one and snap shoot the rest. Otherwise I'd have invested in some valkyries ages ago.
No your thinking of their standard hellstrike missiles which are s8 ap 3 orndance 1 shot. The missile pods are s4 ap6 large blast, hell fury missiles are s4 ap 5 large blast 1 shot.
BryllCream wrote: Problem with the missile pods is that they're ordinance so you can only fire one and snap shoot the rest. Otherwise I'd have invested in some valkyries ages ago.
No your thinking of their standard hellstrike missiles which are s8 ap 3 orndance 1 shot. The missile pods are s4 ap6 large blast, hell fury missiles are s4 ap 5 large blast 1 shot.
Ignores cover too. If it was AP 4, I'd be completely sold on the helldetta.
But think about it, If I'm only going to get a good shot in once (since I'll be primarily boosting it off board to keep le vets safe until the objective), it may as well ignore cover and have 1 better AP,plus, I get a TL lascannon for my trouble.
kestril wrote: I'm still considering the usefulness of the helldetta, the vendetta with hellfury missiles and heavy bolter sponsons replacing 2 lascannons.
Not worth it. 2x TLLCs is just too powerful to give up. It was a decent idea in 5th when those LCs could be replaced by any other LCs in your list, but now you need the Vendetta for AA. If you want hellfury missiles put them on an Avenger.
Also, I'm not sure what you mean about flyer movement being a problem. Vendettas with either weapon have full-table range, so you shouldn't have any problems shooting with them.
Talore wrote: Discussion is expected to be focused on tactics, as in the methods to utilize battlefield resources and not making ignorant blanket statements about people that decide to not use vendettas using the excuse of the tactics forum.
List building is tactics. And the simple fact is that it is extremely hard to justify not taking Vendettas from a pure tactics perspective. The only way to do it is to talk about "fun" or "fluff", things that are completely subjective and inappropriate for this forum. We can't tell you how to have fun, so that leaves telling you how to win.
One may experiment with units.
Sure, the problem is that the IG codex is old. Everything has already been experimented with. There's still some room for choices, but some things are just obvious at this point. Deathstrike missiles are terrible and should never be used, Vendettas are overpowered and should always be used. You can "experiment" all you want if you stubbornly refuse to take advice until you've discover it yourself, but in the end you're going to come to the exact same conclusion as the rest of us.
One may be facing an opponent or a metagame which overcompensates on attacking air units.
In which case you're screwed anyway, since any metagame that is so dangerous for Vendettas that you can't use them is going to be just as hostile to every other IG list. Chimeras will die instantly, and infantry hordes will be trapped in their own deployment zone and lose every objective game.
So don't demean people by claiming that the only reason they wouldn't play the game like you want them to is because they have "arbitrary self-imposed limits about playing with powerful units."
Sorry, but in this case it's true. Ailaros often gives bad advice because he plays under self-imposed limits about not taking overpowered Vendettas or FW units (and then tells everyone how terrible those units are anyway).
I have edited the thread to remove spammy personal effrontery. Please remember, we only have three rules: be polite, stay on topic, and no spam. Thanks.
@peregrine i saw your DKOK army, very sick! obviously you love forgeworld and by the looks of it have tried the new DKOK army that i believe was part of IA12. Whats your take? Like i stated earlier, i dont have any forgeworld, its just out of my reach currently which is why i stick to codex stuff but i do regularly oogle over forgeworld models and when i start getting some i wanted to either go DKOK, SM legion, or SM assault vanguard (the badab war one i believe). So my question to you is whats your take on DKOK, i read the IA3 one you have in the forums over the eylsian drop troopers, well written but as you know im not a flier fan but it was still good tho.
Any other advise on forgeworld stuff?
oh and peregrine, your advise is solid but please dont patronize me over my distaste of fliers, i dont want to be just arguing like talore is now when i come here to learn. No offence but yeah im here to learn new stuff.
BryllCream wrote: Problem with the missile pods is that they're ordinance so you can only fire one and snap shoot the rest. Otherwise I'd have invested in some valkyries ages ago.
No your thinking of their standard hellstrike missiles which are s8 ap 3 orndance 1 shot. The missile pods are s4 ap6 large blast, hell fury missiles are s4 ap 5 large blast 1 shot.
Ignores cover too. If it was AP 4, I'd be completely sold on the helldetta.
But think about it, If I'm only going to get a good shot in once (since I'll be primarily boosting it off board to keep le vets safe until the objective), it may as well ignore cover and have 1 better AP,plus, I get a TL lascannon for my trouble.
Thats why I dont mind the Eradicator, lately Ive been dealing with easy to kill troops hiding in dense cover. So Ive been taking an eradicator to take care of those troops and to also put a lot of wounds on horde based armies. Not sure if Im sold on the bolt boat though for the tank, I think I might try giving it plasma cannons or something else to hit harder targets as well.
BryllCream wrote: Problem with the missile pods is that they're ordinance so you can only fire one and snap shoot the rest. Otherwise I'd have invested in some valkyries ages ago.
No your thinking of their standard hellstrike missiles which are s8 ap 3 orndance 1 shot. The missile pods are s4 ap6 large blast, hell fury missiles are s4 ap 5 large blast 1 shot.
Ignores cover too. If it was AP 4, I'd be completely sold on the helldetta.
But think about it, If I'm only going to get a good shot in once (since I'll be primarily boosting it off board to keep le vets safe until the objective), it may as well ignore cover and have 1 better AP,plus, I get a TL lascannon for my trouble.
Thats why I dont mind the Eradicator, lately Ive been dealing with easy to kill troops hiding in dense cover. So Ive been taking an eradicator to take care of those troops and to also put a lot of wounds on horde based armies. Not sure if Im sold on the bolt boat though for the tank, I think I might try giving it plasma cannons or something else to hit harder targets as well.
I don't really see a compelling reason to take eradicators over griffons honestly
Indarys wrote: I don't really see a compelling reason to take eradicators over griffons honestly
The main one that I see is if you play with multi level ruins a lot. Griffons are pretty useless at attacking a unit on the bottom floor of a ruin, as are all of the barrage weapons. A direct firing eradicator can clear it much easier. Also, you get the added longevity of a russ chassis. Other than that, flamers are the only option. A vet squad/pcs in a chimera or vendetta can work, as can a hellhound, but they can't do it at the range an eradicator can.
TheLionOfTheForest wrote: Why take eradicators or griffons, when you could take a Collossus which is better than both.
Colossus also can't attack units on the lower floors of ruins. Really, it all depends on what terrain you see. There are usually some two or three level ruins in games that I play, which will be the first place people put objectives.
TheLionOfTheForest wrote: Why take eradicators or griffons, when you could take a Collossus which is better than both.
Colossus also can't attack units on the lower floors of ruins. Really, it all depends on what terrain you see. There are usually some two or three level ruins in games that I play, which will be the first place people put objectives.
Hey Trickstick, ever feel like you're repeating yourself?
Hey Trickstick, ever feel like you're repeating yourself?
You take eradicators over colossuses for two reasons - AV14, and they can take cheap hull weapons. For the price of a medusa and a colossus you get an eradicator with multimeltas and a lascannon which are nearly as good, killing-power-wise, but costs 70 points cheaper. And you get AV14.
You take either of those above griffons because griffons are crappy. Who cares if you get more shots per point that are a bit more accurate if you don't really do any damage when you hit? It would be like spending 30 points on a proverbial docrtine that made your veterans' lasguns twin-linked when you could spend those points on meltaguns instead.
Ailaros wrote: You take eradicators over colossuses for two reasons - AV14, and they can take cheap hull weapons. For the price of a medusa and a colossus you get an eradicator with multimeltas and a lascannon which are nearly as good, killing-power-wise, but costs 70 points cheaper. And you get AV14.
Except now you're stuck with both of your "tanks" on the same unit where they have to fire at the same target. If you use the "Colossus" you waste the "Medusa", if you use the "Medusa" you waste the "Colossus".
You take either of those above griffons because griffons are crappy. Who cares if you get more shots per point that are a bit more accurate if you don't really do any damage when you hit?
Because if you do the math Griffons are excellent infantry killers.
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Solosam47 wrote: @peregrine i saw your DKOK army, very sick! obviously you love forgeworld and by the looks of it have tried the new DKOK army that i believe was part of IA12. Whats your take?
Haven't played it yet. It looks like it's probably a step down in power compared to a codex IG army (with FW units included), but it could be fun to play.
I ran an eradicator at a tourny and I would say it was excellent as it killed sniper squads hiding in cover and managed to pick off cheap units hiding in cover, couple of chaos opponents hated the eradicator blast their cheap cultists out from behind his wall on turn 1. Thought with night fight he would be safe with a 2+ but little did he know being within the 36" range meant my eradicator was going to have a good time, thats the same for the GK player who had the psyker squad sitting back with a s10 blast.
Also the eradicator can target squads on the bottom floor of ruins and builds, which actaully did indeed help me in one game.
The best part is that for a pretty low amount of points you can add versatility to an anti-MSU-scoring-unit weapon, like by giving it plasma cannons and a lascannon to make it a long-range MC hunter, or a lascannon and some multimeltas to rake over fliers and other stuff that gets too close.
Ailaros wrote: You take eradicators over colossuses for two reasons - AV14, and they can take cheap hull weapons. For the price of a medusa and a colossus you get an eradicator with multimeltas and a lascannon which are nearly as good, killing-power-wise, but costs 70 points cheaper. And you get AV14.
You take either of those above griffons because griffons are crappy. Who cares if you get more shots per point that are a bit more accurate if you don't really do any damage when you hit? It would be like spending 30 points on a proverbial docrtine that made your veterans' lasguns twin-linked when you could spend those points on meltaguns instead.
Griffons are literally one of the best units in the guard codex.
Ailaros wrote: You take eradicators over colossuses for two reasons - AV14, and they can take cheap hull weapons. For the price of a medusa and a colossus you get an eradicator with multimeltas and a lascannon which are nearly as good, killing-power-wise, but costs 70 points cheaper. And you get AV14.
You take either of those above griffons because griffons are crappy. Who cares if you get more shots per point that are a bit more accurate if you don't really do any damage when you hit? It would be like spending 30 points on a proverbial docrtine that made your veterans' lasguns twin-linked when you could spend those points on meltaguns instead.
Griffons are literally one of the best units in the guard codex.
Yea at killing horde, not to mention if an objective is in a ruin and theres guys on the bottom floor have fun blasting them out. They are cheap but I would rather have other heavy support.
Indarys wrote:Griffons are literally one of the best units in the guard codex.
Why?
When I look at a griffon, I see an opened-topped AV12/10 vehicle. This means it's not going to survive for very long, which means it needs to do a lot of damage up-front.
I then look at its weapon. I see something that is large blast, which means it's not great against dispersed troops or monstrous creatures. I see barrage which means it can only hit the top floor of ruins and can't shoot at fliers at all. I see Heavy 1, which means it's not going to be a credible threat to vehicles or monstrous creatures without either serious S or Ap. I see something that's Ap4, which automatically discludes it from being terribly useful against anything of Sv3+ or 2+, and I see S6 which means it's pointless against monstrous creatures, and, even with ordnance, not that great against vehicles. Serious armor will have side armor of AV12 or better, and weaker armor will tend to have a jink save that the griffon can't ignore. Meanwhile, with Ap4, it's not doing anything more than stripping hullpoints from vehicles anyways most of the time.
So, to review, we have a weapons platform that's fragile, so you need to do serious damage in just a few shots. Serious damage that's not good against terminators, space marines, vehicles, monstrous creatures, or infantry in cover, especially ruins, or if they're even remotely competently displaced.
So the griffon isn't actually good against anything. On a fragile frame.
Pass on this vehicle every time.
Especially when you could take a medusa or colossus instead.
Ailaros wrote: When I look at a griffon, I see an opened-topped AV12/10 vehicle. This means it's not going to survive for very long, which means it needs to do a lot of damage up-front.
When I look at the Griffon I see a fairly small model that doesn't need LOS to shoot. This means it can often have a 1+ invulnerable save, which is much better than mere AV 14.
I see something that's Ap4, which automatically discludes it from being terribly useful against anything of Sv3+ or 2+,
And this is where you're wrong. Even with only AP 4 the Griffon's extremely cheap cost and excellent accuracy make it decent against MEQs by sheer volume of fire. Even the Colossus isn't beating the Griffon by a huge margin.
It's the same reason the Bane Wolf is worse than the Hellhound against marines: the Hellhound may only have AP 4, but it gets so many more hits that it doesn't matter.
So the griffon isn't actually good against anything.
Only if you're bad at math.
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Ailaros wrote: The best part is that for a pretty low amount of points you can add versatility to an anti-MSU-scoring-unit weapon, like by giving it plasma cannons and a lascannon to make it a long-range MC hunter, or a lascannon and some multimeltas to rake over fliers and other stuff that gets too close.
No, that would be the worst part. Instead of looking at it as versatility you should recognize that what you're doing is spending points on anti-tank weapons and then putting them on an anti-infantry unit instead of on a separate anti-tank unit. So instead of having anti-tank weapons shooting at tanks and anti-infantry weapons shooting at infantry you're always wasting half your unit.
I don't get why people love the Vendetta so much. It's a AV 12 vehicle with 3 TL Lascannons. The Exterminator can do it's job (Popping AV 11/12 vehicles with ease) and, if equipped properly, is better against AV 14 to boot. Also, an Exterminator will pop those things early before the opponent get their nasty contents up. The only thing the Vendetta does well is anti flier (My Vendetta downed a Helldrake the first time it shot at it. Made my day) work and putting guys on back objectives.
The transport capacity is negligible, TBH. If the Vendetta could carry Space Marines that would make it much better but all you're transporting is T3 5+ save schmucks. If you put them on the back objectives, they are vulnerable to being gunned down by anything with a decent weapon. Sure, you could just put them on objectives that have been left completely open but by that time the game is over and the only contributions that veterans made was 1 VP. And situations where the objectives are open are not all that common. A lot of the time, you will have sunk in a bunch of points for a unit that is only useful situationally.
And, to be honest, if the opponents backfield is open to being capped by T3 5+ schmucks you probably didn't even need those VPs anyway.
Disclaimer: This is an argument against Vendettas being an auto include in nearly any list. I realize that their usefulness varies on Meta (It can be worthless in some metas but be a godsend in others) but people shouldn't spam "Your list needs more vendettas!". I also realize that they are good in aircav lists since... it's an aircav list.
Because it does so many things for so few points: it's a decent vehicle killer, an excellent flyer killer, and a vital transport. All for much less than anything that can beat it at even one of those jobs.
The Exterminator can do it's job (Popping AV 11/12 vehicles with ease)
Not really. The LR Exterminator has two TLACs and a single LC for 150 points, compared to the Vendetta's 3x TLLCs for 130 points.
And of course the Exterminator can't even attempt to compete in the AA role, which is the bigger reason to take a Vendetta.
The transport capacity is negligible,
Err, lol? Since when is the ability to deliver a vet squad or CCS full of melta/plasma "negligible"?
If you put them on the back objectives, they are vulnerable to being gunned down by anything with a decent weapon.
Which is why you wait until late in the game to do it. You have two choices with a Vendetta, you can go for the immediate damage and hope your infantry survive, or you can hold them back for later to claim objectives.
Solosam47 wrote: @peregrine i saw your DKOK army, very sick! obviously you love forgeworld and by the looks of it have tried the new DKOK army that i believe was part of IA12. Whats your take? Like i stated earlier, i dont have any forgeworld, its just out of my reach currently which is why i stick to codex stuff but i do regularly oogle over forgeworld models and when i start getting some i wanted to either go DKOK, SM legion, or SM assault vanguard (the badab war one i believe). So my question to you is whats your take on DKOK, i read the IA3 one you have in the forums over the eylsian drop troopers, well written but as you know im not a flier fan but it was still good tho.
Any other advise on forgeworld stuff?
oh and peregrine, your advise is solid but please dont patronize me over my distaste of fliers, i dont want to be just arguing like talore is now when i come here to learn. No offence but yeah im here to learn new stuff.
I've played with the DkoK assault brigade once, and its a great fun list, hopefully I can squeeze in another game this weekend if the missus lets me!
I love being able to take griffons and hydras as elites especially as you can upgrade the griffons to caracass which gives them two firing modes, normal and S5, shred, gets hot (which you can reroll) ignores cover. Comparing that to, say, a dark angels whirlwind, and it is better in every way (if slightly more expensive) and keeps your heavy choices free.
The other great thing about this list is that your platoons recycle. Not only does that suit the massed infantry assault wave that I feel DKoK would make it is also a lot of fun to play with. All the guardsmen have krak grenades and I was cheerfully charging them at a wraith knight. I give each squad a melta gun for added oomph and assault whenever possible.
As for my ordanance, I have a question, are enclosed hulls worth it? My instinct says no but all of the tanks I've bought are Armageddon patterns so its not quite WYSIWYG as I'm playing it now...
jamin484 wrote: As for my ordanance, I have a question, are enclosed hulls worth it? My instinct says no but all of the tanks I've bought are Armageddon patterns so its not quite WYSIWYG as I'm playing it now...
Not worth it IMO, the benefit is too situational (you have to take a damage result that the enclosed crew compartment helps you with, but not so many that you're just shaken and useless or die to hull point loss) and the point cost is too high.
As for the Armageddon-pattern tanks my solution is to leave the back doors off when I'm playing so they're technically not enclosed.
Indarys wrote:Griffons are literally one of the best units in the guard codex.
Why?
When I look at a griffon, I see an opened-topped AV12/10 vehicle. This means it's not going to survive for very long, which means it needs to do a lot of damage up-front.
I then look at its weapon. I see something that is large blast, which means it's not great against dispersed troops or monstrous creatures. I see barrage which means it can only hit the top floor of ruins and can't shoot at fliers at all. I see Heavy 1, which means it's not going to be a credible threat to vehicles or monstrous creatures without either serious S or Ap. I see something that's Ap4, which automatically discludes it from being terribly useful against anything of Sv3+ or 2+, and I see S6 which means it's pointless against monstrous creatures, and, even with ordnance, not that great against vehicles. Serious armor will have side armor of AV12 or better, and weaker armor will tend to have a jink save that the griffon can't ignore. Meanwhile, with Ap4, it's not doing anything more than stripping hullpoints from vehicles anyways most of the time.
So, to review, we have a weapons platform that's fragile, so you need to do serious damage in just a few shots. Serious damage that's not good against terminators, space marines, vehicles, monstrous creatures, or infantry in cover, especially ruins, or if they're even remotely competently displaced.
So the griffon isn't actually good against anything. On a fragile frame.
Pass on this vehicle every time.
Especially when you could take a medusa or colossus instead.
Let's do the math on Griffon vs Colossus.
Colossus costs about double the price of the griffon. So with a griffon you get 1.86 large blasts for the colossus's 1.
Let's assume, for argument, 2 griffons are shooting at 5 MEQs. It's difficult to do the math on scattering, obviously, so I'll give a scatter roll a (very generous imo) as hitting 2.5 marines.
Both weapons wound on anything but. The colossus will wound (and outright kill) 3.33 marines on average. The griffon(s) will wound 6.13 marines, killing 2.
That's in the absolute best case scenerio, point for point, you kill 1.33 more marine.
Let's look at TEQ.
Same as above, but the colussus kills 0.55 TEQs and the griffon(s) kill 1.
GEQ? Well, there the Colussus kills 3.33 and the griffons kill 6.
For every target besides MEQ, the griffon kills nearly double the colussus, point for point. In my personal meta, home objectives are usually held by low-cost troops like grots or cultists. My griffons have been invaluable at sweeping them off objectives. That may be different for you, but griffons at only a tiny point cost can be slotted into nearly any army singly if you need them, and are much more versatile. They also have a larger useful firing range, as colussi run into minimum range issues at 24 inches. Admittedly, griffon's max range is 48, but I can count on one hand the number of times I've not been able to shoot a griffon at what I've wanted to shoot it at because it's been out of range. The minimum range of 24 is much more worrying.
I don't feel like doubling the points for 1 more AP is really a great deal, not to mention the nosedive in accuracy; its somewhat akin to buying Stormtroopers just for their hotshot lasguns.
I don't like the Griffin myself. I tend to run Earthshaker Gun Carriages same points but better gun if I run an allied psyker with Div I can make them just as accurate. They can also take a better hit from Anti-Tank guns but suffer from barrage and combat.
I've never played a DKoK army so if there elites they could be of some use.
Sinji wrote: I don't like the Griffin myself. I tend to run Earthshaker Gun Carriages same points but better gun if I run an allied psyker with Div I can make them just as accurate. They can also take a better hit from Anti-Tank guns but suffer from barrage and combat.
I've never played a DKoK army so if there elites they could be of some use.
They are elites but you cannot take heavy artillery with the assault brigade list so no gun carriages. I was going to make a base for my tanks with sandbags and the like so I could run them as artillery, representing hull down dug in self propelled guns. They seem a bit OP to me, especially given their cost....
TheCustomLime wrote: I don't get why people love the Vendetta so much. It's a AV 12 vehicle with 3 TL Lascannons. The Exterminator can do it's job (Popping AV 11/12 vehicles with ease) and, if equipped properly, is better against AV 14 to boot. Also, an Exterminator will pop those things early before the opponent get their nasty contents up. The only thing the Vendetta does well is anti flier (My Vendetta downed a Helldrake the first time it shot at it. Made my day) work and putting guys on back objectives.
The transport capacity is negligible, TBH. If the Vendetta could carry Space Marines that would make it much better but all you're transporting is T3 5+ save schmucks. If you put them on the back objectives, they are vulnerable to being gunned down by anything with a decent weapon. Sure, you could just put them on objectives that have been left completely open but by that time the game is over and the only contributions that veterans made was 1 VP. And situations where the objectives are open are not all that common. A lot of the time, you will have sunk in a bunch of points for a unit that is only useful situationally.
And, to be honest, if the opponents backfield is open to being capped by T3 5+ schmucks you probably didn't even need those VPs anyway.
Disclaimer: This is an argument against Vendettas being an auto include in nearly any list. I realize that their usefulness varies on Meta (It can be worthless in some metas but be a godsend in others) but people shouldn't spam "Your list needs more vendettas!". I also realize that they are good in aircav lists since... it's an aircav list.
Exterminator good against enemy av14? well if the MM really get you close enough to where you get that 2d6 bonus hopefully your tank is even alive. If its a monlith and its that close there are probably a ton of warriors that are about to glance that tank to death regardless. If its land raider then theres probably a death star that going to assault and kill your tank and everything around it.If its another russ, well I suppose you get lucky and get to kill av14, that is if guards bs3 doesnt fail you.
Vendettas have their 3 twinlinked lascannons which pretty much dominates any other flier in the game, is one of the cheaper fliers in the game as well. Transport capacity is a must. IG struggles at capturing the opponents objectives if you arent playing mech so even if your vendetta stays in reserves until turn 4 then it flies on and shoots something and hopes to kill whatever it is, then turn 5 fly over an objective and fry what on it, to either contest or capture, Ive honestly won a few games because my vendetta was in reserves so late and I managed to come on and drop on an objective last turn and contest or capture for the win. If you dont use the transport capacity of the vendetta your not using all of the 130pts you paid.
Indarys wrote:Let's do the math on Griffon vs Colossus.
A few things.
Firstly, you can't just compare two griffons to a single colossus. This is because those two griffons are going to be in a squad, which, even with accurate bombardment, can adversely effect accuracy. That is, of course, unless 2 of your 3 HS slots are griffons, which would be crazy.
Secondly, comparing the colossuses to griffons, then you've got to look at the real differences. Neither of them are an anti-TEq weapons, for example. Really, what you've got to look at is Sv3+ or worse infantry. In this case, in the NOT bsest-case-scenario, you painted the colossus as being merely 50% better. Moreover, you looked at a weapon that ignores cover save, and did absolutely no math with regards to cover saves. Of course the griffon is going to be more efficient against Sv4+ infantry NOT in cover.
What you've really got to look at is those scouts hiding on an objective. That can be digging out infantry with a 2+ save. A 2+ save that becomes NO SAVE with a colossus. The strategic impact of that is huge, while the griffon is just plinking.
Plus, why would you take a weapon just to kill Sv4+ or worse infantry out in the open? It's not like you get a bunch of free lasguns or heavy bolters everywhere in your army. Why waste an HS slot on something you're already doing plenty well anyways?
Because it does so many things for so few points: it's a decent vehicle killer, an excellent flyer killer, and a vital transport. All for much less than anything that can beat it at even one of those jobs.
The Exterminator can do it's job (Popping AV 11/12 vehicles with ease)
Not really. The LR Exterminator has two TLACs and a single LC for 150 points, compared to the Vendetta's 3x TLLCs for 130 points.
And of course the Exterminator can't even attempt to compete in the AA role, which is the bigger reason to take a Vendetta.
The transport capacity is negligible,
Err, lol? Since when is the ability to deliver a vet squad or CCS full of melta/plasma "negligible"?
If you put them on the back objectives, they are vulnerable to being gunned down by anything with a decent weapon.
Which is why you wait until late in the game to do it. You have two choices with a Vendetta, you can go for the immediate damage and hope your infantry survive, or you can hold them back for later to claim objectives.
1. Okay, I will concede that what it does it does well for it's points but it isn't the god mode vehicle that everyone says it is. It's just three Lascannons. It's not like the guard codex is hurting for them. Sure, it's three Lascannons for like 130 points and it can kill flyers but that doesn't make it like the best unit in 40k (I know you didn't make this statement, Peregine, I'm just trying to address this assertion in general). Note, I am not saying that the Vendetta is a bad vehicle. Far from it. I'm just saying that it shouldn't be an auto take for anything coming from Codex: Imperial Guard.
2. The Exterminator Autocannon will nail an AV12 vehicle on 4s compared to the Vendettas 3s and has one more shot. It can do it earlier, is comparatively durable and it can take a ton of upgrades to boot. Yeah, of course the fact the Vendetta can do the same for cheaper (Especially when taking upgrades) is a valid point but I'm trying to argue from an alpha strike point of view. By the time the Vendetta shows up, the nasties inside that vehicle may have gotten into just the right position. Also, I've conceded that the Vendetta is a great flyer killer and if you see a lot of flyers it is something to be considered.
3. Okay, maybe negligible is too strong of a word but it isn't all that great either. Like I said, the guys inside are T3 5+. By the time they are in a situation to get plopped on a backfield objective, it is likely too late for them to do anything meaningful and, besides, by that point you really don't need those VPs. On the other hand, if you face off against fast moving aggressive armies I can see how this would be effective. Like I said, the usefulness of the things is highly dependent on your meta.
Dont forget turn 1 has a chance of being night fight resulting in your exterminator possibly not doing anything. The Vendetta also may not come in until turn 2 or even until turn 4, its hit or miss sometimes but thats also why its transport capacity and dropping troops on an objective late game could really save you. This also all depends on how strong your ground force is doing at holding its own objectives to.
Indarys wrote:Let's do the math on Griffon vs Colossus.
A few things.
Firstly, you can't just compare two griffons to a single colossus. This is because those two griffons are going to be in a squad, which, even with accurate bombardment, can adversely effect accuracy. That is, of course, unless 2 of your 3 HS slots are griffons, which would be crazy.
Secondly, comparing the colossuses to griffons, then you've got to look at the real differences. Neither of them are an anti-TEq weapons, for example. Really, what you've got to look at is Sv3+ or worse infantry. In this case, in the NOT bsest-case-scenario, you painted the colossus as being merely 50% better. Moreover, you looked at a weapon that ignores cover save, and did absolutely no math with regards to cover saves. Of course the griffon is going to be more efficient against Sv4+ infantry NOT in cover.
What you've really got to look at is those scouts hiding on an objective. That can be digging out infantry with a 2+ save. A 2+ save that becomes NO SAVE with a colossus. The strategic impact of that is huge, while the griffon is just plinking.
Plus, why would you take a weapon just to kill Sv4+ or worse infantry out in the open? It's not like you get a bunch of free lasguns or heavy bolters everywhere in your army. Why waste an HS slot on something you're already doing plenty well anyways?
Being in a squadron doesn't make accuracy worse at all. If anything, it makes it better.
And all barrage weapons ignore cover, so the only time "cover saves" even come into play is "killing things in area terrain cover" which is a very very limited profile. Those scouts hiding on an objective behind an aegis get exactly the same cover save from a griffon as they do from a colossus, which is to say, zero.
If you were playing a game that didn't have forests or ruins, but only had lines of sandbags and buildings, then yes, griffons would be better. I don't know if I've ever played a game without them, and pretty much every game I've seen on battle reports has had at least one ruins.
In this case, it's the griffon that's the niche weapon - good for metas that don't have area terrain in a game where most people (apparently other than your particular FLGS) use them.
And putting artillery into a squadron doesn't make it more accurate, it just narrows the band of possible inaccuracies towards the middle of the range.
Barrage ignores cover??? can you please point me to the correct page and exact paragraph so I can see this because if I remember correctly If the center whole of your template scatters of my aegis, which means the blast is now going through my aegis line, then Im pretty sure I get a cover save. If I got guys on the bottom floor of ruins in which theres a top floor Im almost certain I wont get hit at all by a griffon
tankboy145 wrote: Barrage ignores cover??? can you please point me to the correct page and exact paragraph so I can see this because if I remember correctly If the center whole of your template scatters of my aegis, which means the blast is now going through my aegis line, then Im pretty sure I get a cover save. If I got guys on the bottom floor of ruins in which theres a top floor Im almost certain I wont get hit at all by a griffon
This is correct. You basically treat the center of the blast as the location of the "firing model" and determine cover from that.
For some reason it's a very common misconception that barrage completely ignores cover. If they did, I'm sure my kff loving Ork friend would have murdered me in my sleep by now
Thats what I was pretty confident on, everyone has always told me it does but ive searched in the book and theres nothing that says it does. That also means if you fired barrage at turbo boosting bikes they would still get their cover, unless you have a colossus which just kills the bikes.
Earthshaker Gun Carriage. Rune Priest or Libby with access to div with Master Lvl 2. Roll on Div looking to get the ignores cover if you get it keep it if not change out for Prescience. Yoy then have 1-3 Earthshakers that can re-roll to hit just like a Griffin and can ignore cover just like a Collosus onlt with a far better gun. If you do fail to get the ignores cover ability you can always use the CCS to order fire on my target to force them to re-roll there saves.
Great conversation on artillery, I always loved it and try to run at least one in all my list, this is why I might try my first step into forgeworld with the new DKoK army. Looks like they love the barrage and mass infantry, plus I believe I read on 4chanwiki that they get a special LRBT that you can use for line of sight for your barrage weapons. My question is if this is true then can we minus our BS with our barrage weapons with out LOS? Or is it for something else? Cause it seems like it would be way nice with some basalisks.
Ailaros wrote: A quick trip to the rulebook will answer that question.
No it won't, because the question is about a DKoK-specific unit.
And the answer is that the DKoK assault brigade list (NOT the siege one) can take a special LRBT (any variant) and barrage weapons in the same detachment can draw LOS from the tank instead of just from the gun. So, for example, you can hide a Basilisk behind LOS blocking terrain, get LOS on the target from the LRBT, and still subtract 3" from the scatter distance.
As to whether it's useful or not, maybe. It's great for getting a LRBT out of heavy and into elite (at a price) if you need more heavy slots or giving BS 4 to a Vanquisher, but the assault brigade can't take the heavy artillery carriages so you're stuck with the much less impressive artillery tanks. I probably wouldn't include the spotter tank just to make artillery more accurate, or include lots of artillery just because I took a spotter tank, but if I happen to take both in a list I'm certainly not going to forget I have the option available.
I've found the BS4 is very helpful on the spotter Russ. It really works wonders with Medusa's because they can fire without LOS which they normally cannot do, that is the main reason to take it IMO. Plus the fact that it doesn't use a heavy slot.
Edit - Scratch that I've been playing it wrong, it is only barrage weapons which makes it much less viable. You will often be within minmum range with your bassies anyway so the spotter tank won't make much of a difference because you will still scatter the full distance. Another rethink of my list then...
jamin484 wrote: It really works wonders with Medusa's because they can fire without LOS which they normally cannot do
Huh. Now that is an interesting exploit. Blatantly against RAI, and kind of limited by the short range of the Medusa and high cost (no Griffons to give the Medusa squad a cheap barrage weapon), but it would be funny to do it to someone.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
jamin484 wrote: Edit - Scratch that I've been playing it wrong, it is only barrage weapons which makes it much less viable.
No no, you had it exactly right the first time. It says that any UNIT with a barrage weapon may use the spotter tank for LOS. A squadron of two Medusas and a Basilisk has a barrage weapon, so the entire unit may draw LOS from the spotter. This would allow the Medusas to fire from behind LOS blocking terrain. It won't make them a barrage weapon (so no multiple shot barrage rules for scatter, direction of the shot is still determined from the Medusa and not the impact point, etc), but it will let them shoot right through the LOS blocker.
jamin484 wrote: It really works wonders with Medusa's because they can fire without LOS which they normally cannot do
Huh. Now that is an interesting exploit. Blatantly against RAI, and kind of limited by the short range of the Medusa and high cost (no Griffons to give the Medusa squad a cheap barrage weapon), but it would be funny to do it to someone.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
jamin484 wrote: Edit - Scratch that I've been playing it wrong, it is only barrage weapons which makes it much less viable.
No no, you had it exactly right the first time. It says that any UNIT with a barrage weapon may use the spotter tank for LOS. A squadron of two Medusas and a Basilisk has a barrage weapon, so the entire unit may draw LOS from the spotter. This would allow the Medusas to fire from behind LOS blocking terrain. It won't make them a barrage weapon (so no multiple shot barrage rules for scatter, direction of the shot is still determined from the Medusa and not the impact point, etc), but it will let them shoot right through the LOS blocker.
I just lent my copy of IA away but I dont think the assault brigade can mix ordanance, perhaps codex IG as allies?
jamin484 wrote: I just lent my copy of IA away but I dont think the assault brigade can mix ordanance, perhaps codex IG as allies?
You can. The heavy support ordnance battery is just like the one in the codex, except that it doesn't include Griffons.
Sinji wrote: Funny enough I'm findong the best ally for some of the FWIG Armies is actually IG.
I agree. FW lists give you some fun specialist units, while the codex list gives you the best raw power. For example, Elysians need something to hold the table for a turn while their reserves are off-table, so why not just take codex allies? Sabre platoon, earthshaker, ADL, maybe even throw in another Vendetta/Vulture. Instead of worry about making your allies fit into your overall strategy despite being from a different army you're just giving yourself extra FOC slots.
Sorry to kaibosh, but a griffon can't make a medusa fire indirectly. A weapon has to have the barrage to be able to fire at a model that it can't see (pgs. 16, 33, 34).
In the multiple barrage rules they do say that "If a unit fires more than one shot with the barrage special rule, they fire together", but the "they" in that sentence refers to the "more than one shot" not "a unit".
As such, the models with barrage rule collectively fire by multiple barrage, but the medusa, not having the barrage rule, doesn't get to join in. By neither RAW nor RAI.
Ailaros wrote: Sorry to kaibosh, but a griffon can't make a medusa fire indirectly.
Again, we are not talking about the codex version. Please get and read IA12 before you comment any more on this, because the rules there work completely differently.
A weapon has to have the barrage to be able to fire at a model that it can't see (pgs. 16, 33, 34).
And we are talking about a special rule on a tank that allows other units to draw LOS from it instead of from their own models. This will not make a Medusa a true barrage weapon, but it will allow it to fire without LOS.
Sinji wrote: Funny enough I'm findong the best ally for some of the FWIG Armies is actually IG.
Yeah the allied IG detachment for my death korp consists of a vendetta, veteran squad with demolitions heavy flamer, melta, plasma and either a power weapon wielding commissar or a primaris psycher. The vendetta is called the cookie cutter! http://deathwatchstudios.com/2013/05/14/vendetta-complete/
Sinji wrote: Funny enough I'm findong the best ally for some of the FWIG Armies is actually IG.
Yeah the allied IG detachment for my death korp consists of a vendetta, veteran squad with demolitions heavy flamer, melta, plasma and either a power weapon wielding commissar or a primaris psycher. The vendetta is called the cookie cutter! http://deathwatchstudios.com/2013/05/14/vendetta-complete/
That Vendetta looks really nice. I love the battle damage. I want one just like yours.
Sinji wrote: Funny enough I'm findong the best ally for some of the FWIG Armies is actually IG.
Yeah the allied IG detachment for my death korp consists of a vendetta, veteran squad with demolitions heavy flamer, melta, plasma and either a power weapon wielding commissar or a primaris psycher. The vendetta is called the cookie cutter! http://deathwatchstudios.com/2013/05/14/vendetta-complete/
That Vendetta looks really nice. I love the battle damage. I want one just like yours.
Cheers mate, I'm really pleased with the job he's done. unfortunately I've not been able to get a good use out of it because I'm too incompetent and unlucky. Either my reserve rolls fail until I'm tabled or it comes on misses and gets blown out the sky!
Automatically Appended Next Post: What do you guys think about Hydra's? I'm playing a lot of elder and tau with these new codex releases....
Which Leman Russes work best in a blitzkrieg-like fast approach army full of melta/plasma mech-vets? Currently I think a Executioner with Plasma all over + Lascannon is the swiss army knife and works always. But what should be the second LR? A Punisher bolter boat (maybe with Pask) or a Vanquisher (with Pask)? What Sponsons are usefull on a Vanquisher? Bolter seems to have little synergy and MM is sort of short ranged... I have no experience with either of those tanks and I am afraid that i waste Pask on those because I´d like to move my Russes since i don´t bubblewrap them with infantry and don´t want to play behind an Aegis.
tommse wrote: Which Leman Russes work best in a blitzkrieg-like fast approach army full of melta/plasma mech-vets? Currently I think a Executioner with Plasma all over + Lascannon is the swiss army knife and works always. But what should be the second LR? A Punisher bolter boat (maybe with Pask) or a Vanquisher (with Pask)? What Sponsons are usefull on a Vanquisher? Bolter seems to have little synergy and MM is sort of short ranged... I have no experience with either of those tanks and I am afraid that i waste Pask on those because I´d like to move my Russes since i don´t bubblewrap them with infantry and don´t want to play behind an Aegis.
I'd take a naked demolisher. If you've got lots of AV going at opponent throw a demolisher or two at them as well. The limited range doesn't mean much if you're rushing up with all your vehicles, plus the Str 10 AP 2 template is good against many different targets. If you're lucky, your opponent will concentrate on cracking the AV-14, leaving your vets unmolested.
The bolter-boat punisher may be worth a look at, but it's situational and a large points investment. Vanquishers are more of a long-range-anti-vehicle support.
But you're right about Pask, those are the two tanks that you want to put him on. Plus, you still get BS 4 from Pask, even if you move, so it's not that big of a deal if you find that you have to move his tank here or there.
tommse wrote: Which Leman Russes work best in a blitzkrieg-like fast approach army full of melta/plasma mech-vets? Currently I think a Executioner with Plasma all over + Lascannon is the swiss army knife and works always. But what should be the second LR? A Punisher bolter boat (maybe with Pask) or a Vanquisher (with Pask)? What Sponsons are usefull on a Vanquisher? Bolter seems to have little synergy and MM is sort of short ranged... I have no experience with either of those tanks and I am afraid that i waste Pask on those because I´d like to move my Russes since i don´t bubblewrap them with infantry and don´t want to play behind an Aegis.
Nearly every game I've played had some form of pask in it. I find that on a Vanquisher he's best used with Sponson MM/Hull Lascannon. That allows to bust tank easier and it's terribly expensive. I also find that he works best with Vanquishers and the Exterminator. The Punisher is too weak to deal with the more common AV 12+ so you'll find yourself relying on the sponsons for tank busting more often than not. And due to the amount of shots it gets, a Punisher really doesn't need Pask in it.
Nearly every game I've played had some form of pask in it. I find that on a Vanquisher he's best used with Sponson MM/Hull Lascannon. That allows to bust tank easier and it's terribly expensive. I also find that he works best with Vanquishers and the Exterminator. The Punisher is too weak to deal with the more common AV 12+ so you'll find yourself relying on the sponsons for tank busting more often than not. And due to the amount of shots it gets, a Punisher really doesn't need Pask in it.
Actually, it's the opposite. You want pask in the punisher because it gets so many shots.
A standard bolter boat punisher gets about 14 -15 hits.
A pask punisher gets 19 - 20 hits.
You increase your firepower by a third for less than a third cost of the vehicle.
On the vanquisher, you take pask to make sure that one deadly shot hits. It gives you the peace of mind that the vanquisher will more than likely hit, but doesn't actually increase the effective firepower of the vanquisher.
Because it does so many things for so few points: it's a decent vehicle killer, an excellent flyer killer, and a vital transport. All for much less than anything that can beat it at even one of those jobs.
The Exterminator can do it's job (Popping AV 11/12 vehicles with ease)
Not really. The LR Exterminator has two TLACs and a single LC for 150 points, compared to the Vendetta's 3x TLLCs for 130 points.
And of course the Exterminator can't even attempt to compete in the AA role, which is the bigger reason to take a Vendetta.
The transport capacity is negligible,
Err, lol? Since when is the ability to deliver a vet squad or CCS full of melta/plasma "negligible"?
If you put them on the back objectives, they are vulnerable to being gunned down by anything with a decent weapon.
Which is why you wait until late in the game to do it. You have two choices with a Vendetta, you can go for the immediate damage and hope your infantry survive, or you can hold them back for later to claim objectives.
1. Okay, I will concede that what it does it does well for it's points but it isn't the god mode vehicle that everyone says it is. It's just three Lascannons. It's not like the guard codex is hurting for them. Sure, it's three Lascannons for like 130 points and it can kill flyers but that doesn't make it like the best unit in 40k (I know you didn't make this statement, Peregine, I'm just trying to address this assertion in general). Note, I am not saying that the Vendetta is a bad vehicle. Far from it. I'm just saying that it shouldn't be an auto take for anything coming from Codex: Imperial Guard.
2. The Exterminator Autocannon will nail an AV12 vehicle on 4s compared to the Vendettas 3s and has one more shot. It can do it earlier, is comparatively durable and it can take a ton of upgrades to boot. Yeah, of course the fact the Vendetta can do the same for cheaper (Especially when taking upgrades) is a valid point but I'm trying to argue from an alpha strike point of view. By the time the Vendetta shows up, the nasties inside that vehicle may have gotten into just the right position. Also, I've conceded that the Vendetta is a great flyer killer and if you see a lot of flyers it is something to be considered.
3. Okay, maybe negligible is too strong of a word but it isn't all that great either. Like I said, the guys inside are T3 5+. By the time they are in a situation to get plopped on a backfield objective, it is likely too late for them to do anything meaningful and, besides, by that point you really don't need those VPs. On the other hand, if you face off against fast moving aggressive armies I can see how this would be effective. Like I said, the usefulness of the things is highly dependent on your meta.
Exterminator autocannons are S7. They GLANCE AV12 on 5's. Vendettas and Exterminators have two totally different roles. Vendettas can punk multiwound models, sv 2+ models (i.e., the new MCs, Paladins, etc.), fare very well against fliers, etc. The math of Exterminator vs. AV12 flier is not very good.
The Vendetta is hitting a Flier 75% of the time with each lascannon. The Exterminator is probably only going to hit once. Now it needs a 5 to glance, versus the Vendetta's 3+. It's not a fair comparison.
Because it does so many things for so few points: it's a decent vehicle killer, an excellent flyer killer, and a vital transport. All for much less than anything that can beat it at even one of those jobs.
The Exterminator can do it's job (Popping AV 11/12 vehicles with ease)
Not really. The LR Exterminator has two TLACs and a single LC for 150 points, compared to the Vendetta's 3x TLLCs for 130 points.
And of course the Exterminator can't even attempt to compete in the AA role, which is the bigger reason to take a Vendetta.
The transport capacity is negligible,
Err, lol? Since when is the ability to deliver a vet squad or CCS full of melta/plasma "negligible"?
If you put them on the back objectives, they are vulnerable to being gunned down by anything with a decent weapon.
Which is why you wait until late in the game to do it. You have two choices with a Vendetta, you can go for the immediate damage and hope your infantry survive, or you can hold them back for later to claim objectives.
1. Okay, I will concede that what it does it does well for it's points but it isn't the god mode vehicle that everyone says it is. It's just three Lascannons. It's not like the guard codex is hurting for them. Sure, it's three Lascannons for like 130 points and it can kill flyers but that doesn't make it like the best unit in 40k (I know you didn't make this statement, Peregine, I'm just trying to address this assertion in general). Note, I am not saying that the Vendetta is a bad vehicle. Far from it. I'm just saying that it shouldn't be an auto take for anything coming from Codex: Imperial Guard.
2. The Exterminator Autocannon will nail an AV12 vehicle on 4s compared to the Vendettas 3s and has one more shot. It can do it earlier, is comparatively durable and it can take a ton of upgrades to boot. Yeah, of course the fact the Vendetta can do the same for cheaper (Especially when taking upgrades) is a valid point but I'm trying to argue from an alpha strike point of view. By the time the Vendetta shows up, the nasties inside that vehicle may have gotten into just the right position. Also, I've conceded that the Vendetta is a great flyer killer and if you see a lot of flyers it is something to be considered.
3. Okay, maybe negligible is too strong of a word but it isn't all that great either. Like I said, the guys inside are T3 5+. By the time they are in a situation to get plopped on a backfield objective, it is likely too late for them to do anything meaningful and, besides, by that point you really don't need those VPs. On the other hand, if you face off against fast moving aggressive armies I can see how this would be effective. Like I said, the usefulness of the things is highly dependent on your meta.
Exterminator autocannons are S7. They GLANCE AV12 on 5's. Vendettas and Exterminators have two totally different roles. Vendettas can punk multiwound models, sv 2+ models (i.e., the new MCs, Paladins, etc.), fare very well against fliers, etc. The math of Exterminator vs. AV12 flier is not very good.
The Vendetta is hitting a Flier 75% of the time with each lascannon. The Exterminator is probably only going to hit once. Now it needs a 5 to glance, versus the Vendetta's 3+. It's not a fair comparison.
Yeah, I just realized that. I think I'm starting to get why the Vendetta is so beloved. It can damage most kinds of targets fairly reliably which other C: IG units really can't. Maybe my comparison with the Exterminator is unfair since by the time the Exterminator can do the Vendettas job (by giving it a ton of upgrades) you could probably invest a bit more to get second Vendetta. And, I think my argument was colored by the fact that I was having terrible luck with the things. Now that I've seen their capabilities, well... yeah.
On another note, how is it best to use an armored battlegroup army? I've heard that it's pretty good if taken as allies for codex guard.
TheCustomLime wrote: On another note, how is it best to use an armored battlegroup army? I've heard that it's pretty good if taken as allies for codex guard.
As a primary detachment it pretty much only works as a maximum firepower "kill all of their troops" list since your own scoring units are so terrible they might as well not exist. If you like lots of guns and don't care about the objective game it's a great option.
As allies it's pretty much extra FOC slots. If your heavy support slots are full and you want more tanks, take ABG allies.
@peregrine thx for the advice, sorry it took me awhile to get back to the forums. I am going to order the IA12 and the badab war books from forge world this week sometime. Gonna have to start sometime with the FW.
Which IA include IG armies? I know 12 and 3 do. Also which has the rules for sable turrets? I hear so much about them and how they can be used as good AA?
To start another topic in this thread, what do you guys like to run in your IGapoc armies, I got on today and saw a few apoc threads which had me thinking on the subject. As IG we do have access to a lot of apoc stuff. On a crazy side not of that tho, props to the guy that runs a foot army in apoc haha
Solosam47 wrote: @peregrine thx for the advice, sorry it took me awhile to get back to the forums. I am going to order the IA12 and the badab war books from forge world this week sometime. Gonna have to start sometime with the FW.
Which IA include IG armies? I know 12 and 3 do. Also which has the rules for sable turrets? I hear so much about them and how they can be used as good AA?
To start another topic in this thread, what do you guys like to run in your IGapoc armies, I got on today and saw a few apoc threads which had me thinking on the subject. As IG we do have access to a lot of apoc stuff. On a crazy side not of that tho, props to the guy that runs a foot army in apoc haha
Well It played in a game where we had 3k points a person with 2v2 so not all to crazy and we werent using apoc rules, but I do intend on running a leman russ company if it isnt nerfed or anything with the new book, I mean LRBT's kinda got hurt so not sure how much I would run the other tanks.
Shadow swords for their D cannons to annihilate things(never got to use mine yet though)
As I never played apoc rules or any crazy apoc formations Im not sure how durable the emperors fist company or shadow sword would be against other armies but I would assume they arent terrible.
I also saw this one formation which consisted of valyries and vendettas having storm troopers mounted in them, they had some crazy drop shoot and move rules or something like that, if anyone can find that.
Also I wouldnt go to in depth with apoc because the book will probably be out in a month or less, we should probably be seeing the leaked gw teaser video this weekend to be exact or it might be next. confident its this weekend.
Ok so I've moved into the new place amd pretty much unpacked everything bar my office and 40k man cave so that means no computer or proper internet just yet so I'll have to stick to my phone. First things first though I promised that I'd start with tactics for Allies with IG. Can anyone give as mich infomation on tge different allies they use with there guard armies. I've been running a bit of GK stuff recently and I'm liking what there doing I still have a few more combo's I want to try out though and see how they go. I also have some experience playing with and against SW allies with guard. Anything else would be of great use to the thread.
Automatically Appended Next Post: While I think of it. Has anyone run Cotaez with a shooty henchmen squad and/or Interceptors with there IG?
For SW allies I run a rune priest to stay in a blob and use prescience for my gunline.
two 10man grey hunters squads each with MotW, standard and one squad always has 2 melta guns, sometimes the second squad either has meltas or plasma guns. Both units are in drop pods.
The for heavies I run a long fang pack with 6 guys, x5 missile launchers and they start on the board to add more firepower from my gunline. These guys also have a pod that drops empty
So rune priest cast prescience on whats important in my lines while long fangs also start in my lines and split fire spam everything. On turn one 2 pods with hunters drops in and unloads 20 marines in my opponents face.
This is usually what I use with a gunline guard list. Also depending on pts you never want just one unit deepstriking or drop podding your enemy early in the game as it will basically be a dead squad very very fast.
Solosam47 wrote: Which IA include IG armies? I know 12 and 3 do. Also which has the rules for sable turrets?
IA1 second edition: all IG units (including Sabre guns) except Imperial Navy flyers, and the Armored Battlegroup army list (lots of tanks).
IA12: DKoK Assault Brigade army list (storm troopers as troops + mech).
IA3 second edition: Elysian Drop Troops army list.
IA:Aeronautica: Imperial Navy flyers.
The DKoK siege army is a pdf here, but is not updated for 6th edition and some of its units have obsolete rules. It's still mostly playable with some common sense, but you'll need to agree on some house rules with your opponent, and I wouldn't expect to use it in a tournament.
To start another topic in this thread, what do you guys like to run in your IGapoc armies
Bring all your cool models. Apocalypse is completely broken if you play it competitively, so just buy whatever you enjoy painting. In my case that would be a 50/50 mix of Malcador/Macharius hull superheavies and aircraft.
tankboy145 wrote: For SW allies I run a rune priest to stay in a blob and use prescience for my gunline.
two 10man grey hunters squads each with MotW, standard and one squad always has 2 melta guns, sometimes the second squad either has meltas or plasma guns. Both units are in drop pods.
The for heavies I run a long fang pack with 6 guys, x5 missile launchers and they start on the board to add more firepower from my gunline. These guys also have a pod that drops empty
So rune priest cast prescience on whats important in my lines while long fangs also start in my lines and split fire spam everything. On turn one 2 pods with hunters drops in and unloads 20 marines in my opponents face.
This is usually what I use with a gunline guard list. Also depending on pts you never want just one unit deepstriking or drop podding your enemy early in the game as it will basically be a dead squad very very fast.
What is typically used by grey knights?
Thanks for the input thats sounds prettys much how I was running the SW with my guard. The only difference is I swapped out 1 squad of Greyhunters for a Wolf Guard squad with Combi-Weapons.
I have been running the GK's with either Cotaez or an Inquisitor in Termie Armour with Psycannon. There are only really two reasons to take GK's as allies for IG and thats for either Deep Strike Defence or Scoring Terminators. The standard Inquisitor is what I take to run the Terminators he basicly gives them an extra Psycannon and Prescience. If I want Deep Strike Defence I'll take Cotaez with a shooty henchmen squad (Yet to try these guys as allies but they can be pretty squishy). I have also run Cotaez with a Strike Squad and an Interceptor Squad. The Strike Squad takes Psycannons and the Interceptor Squad will usually run with Incinerators. What I found is that against armies that auto deep strike turn 1 the Interceptors were enough defence when they put up warp quake so I'm in the process of changing out the Strike for the shooty henchmen with Cotaez attached. I'm thinking along the lines of 2x Monkeys (the closer you get the better these get), 3x Plasma Gun Servitors, 7x Acolites with bolters or storm bolters. I might go with bolters because I already have bolters to do some converting with.
I played Coteaz with WA's with Storm Bolters 184 points and Coteaz manning my quad gun/Lascannon behind ADL. i needed a unit to defend my Artillery as i run Mech and holding back boxes to defend was wasting utilization.
I used it mainly for defense against Demon Flamers/Screamers. against smart players who know what to watch out for he's good. against someone without experience he's phenomenal.
if you dont run blobs , he makes a good blob in and of himself. but remember he is 99% defense in that kind of setup.
I tend to look at the armies i'm going to be facing ( Cron air/Fateweaver Dogs/infiltrating Zerkers - Turkey Fliers/Tau Gunline/IG gunline/Drop Pod Marines) as what i need to list/tailor for. or what to expect at a local tournament. Since i play Mech (palsma vets and CCS, with Artillery and SW Drop pods w flamers) this is some advice i can give based on what i have seen.
along those lines, the armies that terrifies me the most are:
1. Tau gunline - better range, stronger shooting, DS capability that ignores cover and most of their heavy weapons tear through AV12 pretty easily. this is a hard matchup at best, can be murderous at worse.
2. Cron Air - in most situations (in vehicles) you can negate some of the fliers abilities ("Rhino" rushing up 18" + 12" into enemy territory doesn't give your opponet much room to deploy his planes.)
3. Fateweaver - if you can down his FMC the game is usually over, if not, good luck denying a gabillion DenyTheWitch rolls. one of the few times i prefer Hydra's over Vendetta's
4. Drop Pod Marines - deploy far enough up that when you get melta(d) and you will, your not running for the hills first turn (one of those times that exposeing your side armor to your opponet [i]might [/i]be better in order to get a few inches on deployment) surround artillery or expensive tanks with your dudes/Boxes to give cover save.
5. Infiltrating Zerkers, Flying Turkeys - Zerkers can be handled (just focus fire with melta or plasma) and Turkeys fall to Ven's or Hydra (Ven's are much better in this situation)
6. IG Gunline - flamers and Artillery negate this build pretty effectively.
Some of the armies that wither to this list:
GK (AP 2 x 14 AP 1 x 10 ) make short work of expensive Terminators.
SM (same as above)
Deldar (Boxes help out tremendously against poison weapons)
Orks (you outshoot and usually outnumber his guys)
Nids (MC get pummeled by AP1/2)
I ran into an allied detachment that used coteaz and henchmen psychers and they shot this s10 ap 1 large blast which was really nasty. cheap I believe.
tommse wrote: Can i pick my targets with 6´s if my tank is commanded by Pask?
you mean like a sniper? no he cant but that would be amazing.... i can see him now laying across the top of a russ with a sniper scope attached to the barrel
tommse wrote: Can i pick my targets with 6´s if my tank is commanded by Pask?
you mean like a sniper? no he cant but that would be amazing.... i can see him now laying across the top of a russ with a sniper scope attached to the barrel
I don't think he meant like a sniper, I believe he meant like sergeants and other characters currently can on a to hit roll of a 6.
tommse wrote: Can i pick my targets with 6´s if my tank is commanded by Pask?
you mean like a sniper? no he cant but that would be amazing.... i can see him now laying across the top of a russ with a sniper scope attached to the barrel
"Khornate crazy dead ahead commander pask!"
"By the emperor! Fire!"
"Ahahha, now those imperial fools will surely perish! BLOOD FOR THE BLOO-*vanquisher shell screams into his skull, breaching his terminator armor, exploding out the back, and spraying his guts out for a good ten meters*"
Im surprised they dont count pask as a character, on the note of pask if anyones willing to try it, pask with vanquisher, lascannon and plasma sponsons is a deadly combo. Basically pops transports or tanks at a distcance, if its a transport then following turn he pretty much will lay waste to the squad assuming the sponsons dont scatter to much. He also is resilient against monstrous creatures since he has rerolls to wound (will be nice for this new eldar threat).
took the last Kit-Kat bar) And as you say, let's get back on topic!
