autopilot wrote:
Yes... yes... My master plan to stop people bringing helldrakes is working...

valace2 wrote:
I feel like my Tau can beat anyone, but I seriously don't want to ever see heldrakes across from me. My philosophy regarding Tau consists of shooting the enemy off of objectives or contesting objectives with Riptides late in game, I still need fire warriors to hold objectives and if there is a heldrake in play I can't count on those fire warriors.

The idea that a helldrake isn't competitive is ludicrous.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
If you're feeling that the Heldrake isn't as good as it was, fill that 3rd Fast Attack slot with Bikers or Spawn and see how it goes. 2 Heldrakes are still a nightmare.

ForgeMarine wrote:

Tau kill helldrakes, and fast... Ive seen several occurrences were 2 helldrake went down in less than a full game turn (with interceptor on sky rays, rip tides and marker lights, they crash and burn rather fast) and I think that will be fairly common.

ForgeMarine wrote:
Im building up a CSM list (Typhus, 2x7 Plague Marines - plasma, 2x2 Oblits, 20x Zombies) with IG allies (Vendetta, 20x blob with autocannons/plasma, Leman Russ battle), with a lot of plasma, and Im rounding out my list. I originally planned on taking a helldrake of course, but Im really questioning its effectiveness in the competitive environment. Its a fantastic unit to fight MEQs, but MEQs are not what were seeing in the tournament scene right now... We see Flying Necrons with Wraiths, big guard blobs, and very very soon well be seeing ALOT of Tau with some Eldar too (as people love em).

Now, the helldrake isnt particularly great against guard blobs (when they have feel no pain or 5++ and spread out), is almost useless against the necron list i described above, and against Tau it wont last long (and is good at killing fire warriors or crisis suits which I dont need help killing), though its solid against Eldar ... Im really thinking taking more Oblits will be of more use against Tau then the helldrake as they will be seen a lot. With 2+ riptides and battle suits, i believe i need the viability of the oblits over the helldrake. While im still going to come up against MEQs, I do feel I can grind out a win against other armies but need everything i can get my hands on to beat these other top armies. Again, please take this post as a assessment of the helldrake in tournament play...

What are your opinions?

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
If you're feeling that the Heldrake isn't as good as it was, fill that 3rd Fast Attack slot with Bikers or Spawn and see how it goes. 2 Heldrakes are still a nightmare.

bogalubov wrote:
The fact that xenos armies are gaining prominence keeps heldrakes useful. A lot of xenos armies don't have a great armor save so they rely on cover. Heldrakes ignore cover. So that unit of pathfinders hanging out on a backfield objective are now roasted elves. If you're fighting monstrous creatures, remember that you're not killing them with the flamer. You're killing them with vector strike (ok, all but the riptide, but hopefully the rest of your list isn't just cultists and can handle the riptide).

Plus you have a unit that can hit an enemy unit anywhere on the board. There's is no way to use movement to avoid being flamed. You can avoid vector striking, but not the baleflamer.

The appearance of anti-air weapons give you two options.

The first is to stop taking air units to disregard the anti-air. That's a descent idea, except that all of those units can shoot at the ground just as well. There are almost no units that have sky fire, but don't have interceptor. So you take units less annoying than the heldrake for your opponent, but your opponent still gets to shoot at them.

The second solution to the rise of anti-air is to spam heldrakes harder. If you bring on two or three onto the board at the same time. Now your opponent has choices of where to shoot. Perhaps not all his anti-air units have a line of sight on all your drakes. So now he splits his sky fire between multiple drakes, decreasing the chance of knocking a single one out.

CannedKhorne wrote:

bogalubov wrote:
The fact that xenos armies are gaining prominence keeps heldrakes useful. A lot of xenos armies don't have a great armor save so they rely on cover. Heldrakes ignore cover. So that unit of pathfinders hanging out on a backfield objective are now roasted elves. If you're fighting monstrous creatures, remember that you're not killing them with the flamer. You're killing them with vector strike (ok, all but the riptide, but hopefully the rest of your list isn't just cultists and can handle the riptide).

Plus you have a unit that can hit an enemy unit anywhere on the board. There's is no way to use movement to avoid being flamed. You can avoid vector striking, but not the baleflamer.

The appearance of anti-air weapons give you two options.

The first is to stop taking air units to disregard the anti-air. That's a descent idea, except that all of those units can shoot at the ground just as well. There are almost no units that have sky fire, but don't have interceptor. So you take units less annoying than the heldrake for your opponent, but your opponent still gets to shoot at them.

The second solution to the rise of anti-air is to spam heldrakes harder. If you bring on two or three onto the board at the same time. Now your opponent has choices of where to shoot. Perhaps not all his anti-air units have a line of sight on all your drakes. So now he splits his sky fire between multiple drakes, decreasing the chance of knocking a single one out.

I agree to everything.

Just to be clear, Helldrakes have to move at least 18 inchs and can only pivot 90 degrees? Flamer can be shot in any direction.

Sorry little behind on 6th edtion game play (just got back from college)

ForgeMarine wrote:
Yes, since it cant hover 18" it is. Doesnt matter as much in this case given the FAQ on where the flamer can come from (anywhere on the base, not the turret like everything else).

CannedKhorne wrote:

bogalubov wrote:
The fact that xenos armies are gaining prominence keeps heldrakes useful. A lot of xenos armies don't have a great armor save so they rely on cover. Heldrakes ignore cover. So that unit of pathfinders hanging out on a backfield objective are now roasted elves. If you're fighting monstrous creatures, remember that you're not killing them with the flamer. You're killing them with vector strike (ok, all but the riptide, but hopefully the rest of your list isn't just cultists and can handle the riptide).

Plus you have a unit that can hit an enemy unit anywhere on the board. There's is no way to use movement to avoid being flamed. You can avoid vector striking, but not the baleflamer.

The appearance of anti-air weapons give you two options.

The first is to stop taking air units to disregard the anti-air. That's a descent idea, except that all of those units can shoot at the ground just as well. There are almost no units that have sky fire, but don't have interceptor. So you take units less annoying than the heldrake for your opponent, but your opponent still gets to shoot at them.

The second solution to the rise of anti-air is to spam heldrakes harder. If you bring on two or three onto the board at the same time. Now your opponent has choices of where to shoot. Perhaps not all his anti-air units have a line of sight on all your drakes. So now he splits his sky fire between multiple drakes, decreasing the chance of knocking a single one out.

I agree to everything.

Just to be clear, Helldrakes have to move at least 18 inchs and can only pivot 90 degrees? Flamer can be shot in any direction.

Sorry little behind on 6th edtion game play (just got back from college)

 Savageconvoy wrote:
I play Tau and usually bring Railgun broadsides with Interceptor. If I have nothing else to shoot at a Fresh Heldrake I will use the Broadsides without a second thought because I don't want to risk them surviving.

Martel732 wrote:
So the players will access to the Helldrake think the rest of the internet is whining. Typical. The Helldrake is insanely undercosted for what it brings to the table, and its likely that disproportionate amounts of TAC lists will have to be dedicated to defending against these things.

 hippesthippo wrote:
I think one is prolly the right number just because it can autowin games against MEQ. Definitely not 3. 2 Maybe if the point level is high enough (2k+).

 hippesthippo wrote:
I've never had problems with only one. I take allies, though, so points are tight.

They're only really effective against marines. Who cares if I kill 5 Firewarriors or Guardsmen in cover? That's like 30-40 pts worth. Big woop. The thing is, they're broken against marines, so you have to take one.

The other thing is that it eats into your fast attack slots. 1 Drake is enough to do the job. Whereas I feel like units of spawn/bikes really don't work well unless you have multiples. With two units of Spawn you can effectively pin an opposing army in their backfield long enough to gain significant board advantage.

Glocknall wrote:
The issue with the drake is not its weapon.

It's the fire arc it has combined with the torrent rules. If can manipulate fantastic shots netting high amounts of hit and never have to leave the tabletop.

Before it was FAQed it was a very good unit but manageable. I keep hoping that GW faqs that it has 180 front arc at maximum, or go back to the 45 degree arc ideally.

Its durability is very good but still has a weak point with AV 10 rear.

Relic07 wrote:

Glocknall wrote:
The issue with the drake is not its weapon.

It's the fire arc it has combined with the torrent rules. If can manipulate fantastic shots netting high amounts of hit and never have to leave the tabletop.

Before it was FAQed it was a very good unit but manageable. I keep hoping that GW faqs that it has 180 front arc at maximum, or go back to the 45 degree arc ideally.

Its durability is very good but still has a weak point with AV 10 rear.

GW is not going to FAQ it again. They have clearly spelled out how they want it to work.

It will be this way until the next Chaos book. Deal with it.

I am not afraid of them, but that's because I fully understand them and have adjusted my lists accordingly.

Relic07 wrote:

 hippesthippo wrote:
I've never had problems with only one. I take allies, though, so points are tight.

They're only really effective against marines. Who cares if I kill 5 Firewarriors or Guardsmen in cover? That's like 30-40 pts worth. Big woop. The thing is, they're broken against marines, so you have to take one.

The other thing is that it eats into your fast attack slots. 1 Drake is enough to do the job. Whereas I feel like units of spawn/bikes really don't work well unless you have multiples. With two units of Spawn you can effectively pin an opposing army in their backfield long enough to gain significant board advantage.

Actually, they work against much more than just marines. Vector a transport, passengers inside get a 3" emergency disembark. Guess what happens next?

Opponent isn't always going to have an ideal spread on his ap3 vulnerable troops and units. I can't tell you the amount of times I have friend 10 or more in one torrent.

The vector strike on top of it is just ace. And if you know what you are doing, the drakes can work really well to limit where your opponent can move on the table.

Fantastic unit, A++ rules, and one of the coolest looking models in the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Glocknall wrote:
The issue with the drake is not its weapon.

It's the fire arc it has combined with the torrent rules. If can manipulate fantastic shots netting high amounts of hit and never have to leave the tabletop.

Before it was FAQed it was a very good unit but manageable. I keep hoping that GW faqs that it has 180 front arc at maximum, or go back to the 45 degree arc ideally.

Its durability is very good but still has a weak point with AV 10 rear.

GW is not going to FAQ it again. They have clearly spelled out how they want it to work.

It will be this way until the next Chaos book. Deal with it.

I am not afraid of them, but that's because I fully understand them and have adjusted my lists accordingly.

 Mr. Voidness wrote:
How about a single helldrake? Before having Tau allies I didn't even considered 1, but now..?

I'm a bit afraid that a single flyer would stick out and be priority target, however as I run Tau allies, I have considerable anti-air to thin out other flyers.. a.k.a. anti-air.

 hippesthippo wrote:

Relic07 wrote:

 hippesthippo wrote:
I've never had problems with only one. I take allies, though, so points are tight.

They're only really effective against marines. Who cares if I kill 5 Firewarriors or Guardsmen in cover? That's like 30-40 pts worth. Big woop. The thing is, they're broken against marines, so you have to take one.

The other thing is that it eats into your fast attack slots. 1 Drake is enough to do the job. Whereas I feel like units of spawn/bikes really don't work well unless you have multiples. With two units of Spawn you can effectively pin an opposing army in their backfield long enough to gain significant board advantage.

Actually, they work against much more than just marines. Vector a transport, passengers inside get a 3" emergency disembark. Guess what happens next?

Opponent isn't always going to have an ideal spread on his ap3 vulnerable troops and units. I can't tell you the amount of times I have friend 10 or more in one torrent.

The vector strike on top of it is just ace. And if you know what you are doing, the drakes can work really well to limit where your opponent can move on the table.

Fantastic unit, A++ rules, and one of the coolest looking models in the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Who said anything about running 3? I run 2, read my post above. At 1500 Pt+ you need 2.

However, I do have a triple drake list at 2K that it absolutely devastating. It can easily win an RT tournament.

Glocknall wrote:
The issue with the drake is not its weapon.

It's the fire arc it has combined with the torrent rules. If can manipulate fantastic shots netting high amounts of hit and never have to leave the tabletop.

Before it was FAQed it was a very good unit but manageable. I keep hoping that GW faqs that it has 180 front arc at maximum, or go back to the 45 degree arc ideally.

Its durability is very good but still has a weak point with AV 10 rear.

GW is not going to FAQ it again. They have clearly spelled out how they want it to work.

It will be this way until the next Chaos book. Deal with it.

I am not afraid of them, but that's because I fully understand them and have adjusted my lists accordingly.

Mmm I think I know what I'm doing. Whoever your playing against that lets you get 10 guys under a template might not. Even spilling out of a transport that should never happen. Mayyyyyyybe if your opponent wins a combat and only consolidates a single inch. Maybe.

Vector strikes are great, yeah, but good opponents manage their movement so you can't fly over and land the way you want to. Even then, against side av11, your only averaging 1.5 hp.

I've yet to see a triple Heldrake list do well at even a RTT, let alone a big tourney. That alone should tell you something. They're great at what they do, but putting 500 points into three flame templates that don't start on the board is not going to get you a balanced list.

Against some armies even a single Heldrake can almost win the game itself. However, against a lot of other armies, it simply isn't very efficient.

 dementedwombat wrote:
I can't say that if someone ran 3 helldrakes at 1500 pts I'd refuse to play them, because I'm not that much of TFG, but the next time I played them I'd be running 3 riptides and a couple of skyrays...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In the intent of adding something useful to the thread, I think that the drake is still as good as it has ever been (never actually seen one so I can't comment, but from what I've read they are quite good). It's just that there are armies with actual anti air firepower now, so countering them is somewhat easier.

For instance, the more I look at it the more I consider the humble sky ray. I never touched them before, but I think they have to be up near "worst enemy" status for a helldrake. 6 str 8 shots that ignore cover? Sounds good to me.

 dementedwombat wrote:
True, but i would assume that 5++ is significantly worse than whatever cover save they would normally get. I saw something about 3++ somewhere earlier in this thread.

With a 5++ a skyray has reasonable odds to kill a helldrake in one turn regardless of whether it has a cover save, as long as the Tau can somehow get a single markerlight on the drake before the skyray unloads (6 man pathfinder squad or the new FW commander battlesuit with a networked markerlight on a suit with skyfire).

dementedwombat wrote:True, but i would assume that 5++ is significantly worse than whatever cover save they would normally get. I saw something about 3++ somewhere earlier in this thread.

With a 5++ a skyray has reasonable odds to kill a helldrake in one turn regardless of whether it has a cover save, as long as the Tau can somehow get a single markerlight on the drake before the skyray unloads (6 man pathfinder squad or the new FW commander battlesuit with a networked markerlight on a suit with skyfire).

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 dementedwombat wrote:
True, but i would assume that 5++ is significantly worse than whatever cover save they would normally get. I saw something about 3++ somewhere earlier in this thread.

With a 5++ a skyray has reasonable odds to kill a helldrake in one turn regardless of whether it has a cover save, as long as the Tau can somehow get a single markerlight on the drake before the skyray unloads (6 man pathfinder squad or the new FW commander battlesuit with a networked markerlight on a suit with skyfire).

Other fliers have to jink, and thus force themselves to fire snapshots next turn, if they want a save. The Heldrake gets that AND IWND "built-in". That's what makes it the most resilient flier in the game.

Martel732 wrote:Yes, triple hell drake is still a major tournament list.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Other fliers have to jink, and thus force themselves to fire snapshots next turn, if they want a save. The Heldrake gets that AND IWND "built-in". That's what makes it the most resilient flier in the game.

Caestus Assault Ram called and wants its title back.

True, but i would assume that 5++ is significantly worse than whatever cover save they would normally get. I saw something about 3++ somewhere earlier in this thread.

 kronk wrote:
If the Hell Drake entices more people to play xenos instead of Space Marines by shaking your local meta's tree, then that's got to be a great thing, right? Haven't people been complaining for the last few years about there being to many Space Marines vs Space Marine games in their local stores?!

Rock on, Hell Drake.

*Bro fist*

 Sephyr wrote:

People may miss the Baleflamer once they see their terminators/mega-armor nobs wither under twin AP2 rending flamers.

Martel732 wrote:
Go ahead and run three. Why hold back? No one else is going to give you mercy as it is.

 Sephyr wrote:
I only use one Helldrake, and while it usually does a good job, it also gets killed very easily by most armies.

- Vendettas shoot it out of the sky like it ain't no thing
-Quad guns pile hull points on it very consistently
- Long Fangs using MLs made twin-linked by their friendly local rune priest usually kill it in a single turn.
- Hell, in my very last game three ork bikes made it explode with nine S5 shots in its rear! I admit it was a big fluke (it was previously untouched), but there you go.

The Helldrake is the best flyer since the release of 6th Ed, granted. IG and Necrons still have better options overall. I find the new Eldar planes very good: though they are ridiculously fragile: the amount of hurt they can dish out is awe-inspiring. People may miss the Baleflamer once they see their terminators/mega-armor nobs wither under twin AP2 rending flamers.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
God, wish the Hemlock Wraithfighter had two D-scythes instead of heavy D-scythes.

Martel732 wrote:
Paying for transport capacity is one of the problems with the Stormraven. Helldrakes are still the most powerful unit in terms of meta-definition in 6th edition so far.

 Exergy wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Paying for transport capacity is one of the problems with the Stormraven. Helldrakes are still the most powerful unit in terms of meta-definition in 6th edition so far.

stormravens dont pay for the transport capacity, just like vendettas dont

CannedKhorne wrote:
The helldrake is a good unit to have for every CSM, I think it will be competitive for quite some time.Later on in 6th edition it will becomeless competitive with more AA coming out.

 Exergy wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Paying for transport capacity is one of the problems with the Stormraven. Helldrakes are still the most powerful unit in terms of meta-definition in 6th edition so far.

stormravens dont pay for the transport capacity, just like vendettas dont

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:

CannedKhorne wrote:
The helldrake is a good unit to have for every CSM, I think it will be competitive for quite some time.Later on in 6th edition it will becomeless competitive with more AA coming out.

I'm not so sure, aside from the Tau Codex the other three since 6th haven't added much in the way of 'reliable and cost effective AA' that can compete with the overall value of 2 Helldrakes.

 Goat wrote:
The heldrake is really a missed opportunity. It should have been a flying walker. The template weapon should have also had a second fire mode for ap2. Maybe even have a transport capacity but I think that might be pushing it. It would need a points increase at that point. They just needed something more to keep them competative.

 Billagio wrote:
Its mediocre against anything that isnt in power armor imo.

 PipeAlley wrote:
Well, I like fighting against dual or even triple HellDrake lists. The more dependence a player has on any one thing, be fliers or Death Stars, the more fun it is to crush it and clean up.

That's the Orky way. The bigger they are, the harder they fall.

 Billagio wrote:
Its mediocre against anything that isnt in power armor imo.

Pony_law wrote:

 Billagio wrote:
Its mediocre against anything that isnt in power armor imo.

Um no... it kills any thing that doesn't have a 2+ save. So it will kill tau, elder, faurd, cultists etc. in droves. The only thing it won't drop are multi-wound high toughness single model units (like riptides) and things with 2+ armor.

cowmonaut wrote:
Heldrakes are just as competitive as they've always been really.

So you are seeing more Predators than Dev/Long Fang squads? That's cool. Vector Strike for D3+1 S7 hits on the AV 11 side armor. Each hit has a 50% chance to strip a hull point and 33% chance to Penetrate. Oh wait, you also have a S6 Torrent weapon with a 360 degree fire arc. Drop it on the rear armor of the Predator. It also has a 50% chance to strip a hull point and a 33% chance to Penetrate.

Minimally you are talking about 3 hits, at most 5 hits. Even with 3 hits you have a fairly decent chance of knocking out the Predator in one go. And that ignores other anti-tank options like Obliterators.


I don't see Predators as a hard counter to Heldrakes. I do think I'll be mixing it up and taking a Predator (or 2) and a Long Fang Pack, but seriously. Heldrakes are highly disruptive and will be my least favorite thing to face, outside of Grey Knight Terminators and Genestealers.

ForgeMarine wrote:
With that said, anyone see using the heldrake in HOVER mode to wait it out (out of range if possible) till you can drop some of the skyrays/riptides?

ForgeMarine wrote:
Lastly, if I really have problems with Tau, I suppose I can always play my other army (space wolves) which are capable of absolutely eating tau (jaws loves to eat up broadsides and riptides and combi-plasma galore). Saw a drop wolves list absolutely eat a tournament winning tau list in 2 turns, it was wild.

cowmonaut wrote:

ForgeMarine wrote:
With that said, anyone see using the heldrake in HOVER mode to wait it out (out of range if possible) till you can drop some of the skyrays/riptides?

It doesn't work the way you think it does I don't think. If you are in Hover mode you are still on the giant Flyer stand IIRC. You pretty much can't hide behind anything. All that would do is A) make it so you can't Vector Strike (I think you have to be zooming to do it) and B) make it so they don't need Skyfire to shoot at you with full BS.

AFAIK there is no reason to go into Hover Mode with a Heldrake unless your movement is constrained.

ForgeMarine wrote:
Lastly, if I really have problems with Tau, I suppose I can always play my other army (space wolves) which are capable of absolutely eating tau (jaws loves to eat up broadsides and riptides and combi-plasma galore). Saw a drop wolves list absolutely eat a tournament winning tau list in 2 turns, it was wild.

You should be able to handle them with CSM. They thing is you just have little hope of out shooting them so you have to get in close some how.

Corollax wrote:
No. Flyers always have to start in reserve.

 whembly wrote:

Corollax wrote:
No. Flyers always have to start in reserve.

Ah... I thought that the fact that it could hover in skimmer mode, it could start on the table in skimmer mode on first turn.

But, because it's a "Flyer", it has to start in reserve...right?

 Kain wrote:

 whembly wrote:

Corollax wrote:
No. Flyers always have to start in reserve.

Ah... I thought that the fact that it could hover in skimmer mode, it could start on the table in skimmer mode on first turn.

But, because it's a "Flyer", it has to start in reserve...right?

If it's not a monstrous creature and it flies, it must be in reserves unless it specifically says it can start on the board.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
If you're in skimmer mode against Tau, Skyrays would be the least of your worries.

cowmonaut wrote:
With a 72" range on Seeker Missiles, good luck being "out of range". And being stuck on a Flyer stand, you won't be hiding behind anything either.