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 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
If you're feeling that the Heldrake isn't as good as it was, fill that 3rd Fast Attack slot with Bikers or Spawn and see how it goes. 2 Heldrakes are still a nightmare.

This is a pretty good idea anyway - spawn, especially nurgle spawn, are a very good unit.

The fact that xenos armies are gaining prominence keeps heldrakes useful. A lot of xenos armies don't have a great armor save so they rely on cover. Heldrakes ignore cover. So that unit of pathfinders hanging out on a backfield objective are now roasted elves. If you're fighting monstrous creatures, remember that you're not killing them with the flamer. You're killing them with vector strike (ok, all but the riptide, but hopefully the rest of your list isn't just cultists and can handle the riptide).

Plus you have a unit that can hit an enemy unit anywhere on the board. There's is no way to use movement to avoid being flamed. You can avoid vector striking, but not the baleflamer.

The appearance of anti-air weapons give you two options.

The first is to stop taking air units to disregard the anti-air. That's a descent idea, except that all of those units can shoot at the ground just as well. There are almost no units that have sky fire, but don't have interceptor. So you take units less annoying than the heldrake for your opponent, but your opponent still gets to shoot at them.

The second solution to the rise of anti-air is to spam heldrakes harder. If you bring on two or three onto the board at the same time. Now your opponent has choices of where to shoot. Perhaps not all his anti-air units have a line of sight on all your drakes. So now he splits his sky fire between multiple drakes, decreasing the chance of knocking a single one out.

Excellent discussion. Im now much more inclined to get one. Appreciate it

bogalubov wrote:
The fact that xenos armies are gaining prominence keeps heldrakes useful. A lot of xenos armies don't have a great armor save so they rely on cover. Heldrakes ignore cover. So that unit of pathfinders hanging out on a backfield objective are now roasted elves. If you're fighting monstrous creatures, remember that you're not killing them with the flamer. You're killing them with vector strike (ok, all but the riptide, but hopefully the rest of your list isn't just cultists and can handle the riptide).

Plus you have a unit that can hit an enemy unit anywhere on the board. There's is no way to use movement to avoid being flamed. You can avoid vector striking, but not the baleflamer.

The appearance of anti-air weapons give you two options.

The first is to stop taking air units to disregard the anti-air. That's a descent idea, except that all of those units can shoot at the ground just as well. There are almost no units that have sky fire, but don't have interceptor. So you take units less annoying than the heldrake for your opponent, but your opponent still gets to shoot at them.

The second solution to the rise of anti-air is to spam heldrakes harder. If you bring on two or three onto the board at the same time. Now your opponent has choices of where to shoot. Perhaps not all his anti-air units have a line of sight on all your drakes. So now he splits his sky fire between multiple drakes, decreasing the chance of knocking a single one out.

I agree to everything.

Just to be clear, Helldrakes have to move at least 18 inchs and can only pivot 90 degrees? Flamer can be shot in any direction.

Sorry little behind on 6th edtion game play (just got back from college)

Yes, since it cant hover 18" it is. Doesnt matter as much in this case given the FAQ on where the flamer can come from (anywhere on the base, not the turret like everything else).

CannedKhorne wrote:

bogalubov wrote:
The fact that xenos armies are gaining prominence keeps heldrakes useful. A lot of xenos armies don't have a great armor save so they rely on cover. Heldrakes ignore cover. So that unit of pathfinders hanging out on a backfield objective are now roasted elves. If you're fighting monstrous creatures, remember that you're not killing them with the flamer. You're killing them with vector strike (ok, all but the riptide, but hopefully the rest of your list isn't just cultists and can handle the riptide).

Plus you have a unit that can hit an enemy unit anywhere on the board. There's is no way to use movement to avoid being flamed. You can avoid vector striking, but not the baleflamer.

The appearance of anti-air weapons give you two options.

The first is to stop taking air units to disregard the anti-air. That's a descent idea, except that all of those units can shoot at the ground just as well. There are almost no units that have sky fire, but don't have interceptor. So you take units less annoying than the heldrake for your opponent, but your opponent still gets to shoot at them.

The second solution to the rise of anti-air is to spam heldrakes harder. If you bring on two or three onto the board at the same time. Now your opponent has choices of where to shoot. Perhaps not all his anti-air units have a line of sight on all your drakes. So now he splits his sky fire between multiple drakes, decreasing the chance of knocking a single one out.

I agree to everything.

Just to be clear, Helldrakes have to move at least 18 inchs and can only pivot 90 degrees? Flamer can be shot in any direction.

Sorry little behind on 6th edtion game play (just got back from college)

MEQ means power armor in general, 3+ save is pretty common even in Xenos.
Necrons have Immortals.
Tau have suits.
Eldar mostly is 3+
Nids MCs are all 3+

Vector Strike + Baleflamer will bring nightmares to these armies.
And ones that don't rely on armor save relies on cover saves which the Heldrake removes as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
and to add most sky fires are S7 so they aren't going to murder heldrakes unless you have large amounts of them.

Even the Tau skyfire is kinda iffy of taking down a flier with interceptor and the guns.

Heldrakes make my crons cringe.

the helldrake isnt out of the competitive scene at all. Unless it counters an obscene amount of your army (unlikely) it wont single-handedly win games like people think it does, but it can do a lot of damage.

As an Ork player i really dont care about it. It flies in, depending on the table it usually scorches a group of lootas while the other group shoots it out of the sky and shoot its butt with the huge mass of boys it flew over to get those lootas. Also the main force in my ork army is the bikernobz and it just annoys them, not counter them. At best 3 wounds that wound on 3s and i get 5++ and fnp to save it.

However as a Tau player that thing scares the crap out of me. Unless im doing a very heavy army with riptides and vehicles, that thing can wreck me. Going with a firewarrior blob and ethereal for your HQ choice is a suicide move if you think theres going to be a CSM player, it will easily 1shot the ethereal's group and it pastes him too so no 6+ fnp from invoke. Really feel like i have to dedicate half my army to killing it because that 5+ invul saves it so much i cant just fire 1 group of Missilesides unless i get lucky.

I know this is anecdotal evidence but....

A couple of weeks ago I played a 1200pts game against a tau/oldar player. I took 3 heldrakes and 2 winged DP. Admittedly he didn't have as much AA as he could have, but he had a fair amount.

Long story short, I flattened him. 22-0 on VP.

I've resigned to counting on my Crimson Hunter to kill it, as the AV12 combined with the 5++ and hitting on 6's makes it much too difficult to try with the rest of my army.

Of course, the Crimson Hunter dies to a stiff breeze and it's very much a case of I have to hit it first before it hits me.

Even then, against 2 or more Heldrakes I doubt I'd have the resources, at 1500pts, to effectively deal with them.

Iranna.

When I use guard heldrakes aren't as scary because if I don't kill them with the first run with the vendetta, I will kill them with the second. or my aegis would have made short work of it. However transitioning to dark angels I feel we have almost nothing to compete with AV12 aside from either super expensive flakk spam or just run deathwing. But I also feel limited by this because with bikes you can change the tide alot more.

Heldrakes are extremely competitive. If you are playing Chaos it is a staple unit.

I was running them to my opponents terror way before they caught on on the internet. Just like I did with flamers and screamers in the old rule set.

Only reason not to take them is if you are tailoring your list vs. a certain opponent type. E.g. I know I am playing Draigowing today, I will drop the Helldrakes for something more appropriate.

drakes are the best flyer in 40k period..baleflamers ruin the cover saves most armies need and with autocannons they mulch the fly cron list so many people are playing as they can take out 2 flyers each turn. until they release armor 14 flyers im keeping both my drakes (named sahloknhir and parthurnax) safely in my warband as my dedicated flyer support. they only thing i fear are vendetas as 3 lascammons make them fantatsic flyer hunters and i dont know what flyer the eldar curruntly have but if they remain true to their theme it will probably have paper thin armor and powerfull guns that can only hit the units in fornt of them, turrets made the drakes weapons stupid


vector striking ignores cover check FAQ, helldrakes fight like skyrim dragons by grabing people off battlements and droping them,

ForgeMarine wrote:
Yes, since it cant hover 18" it is. Doesnt matter as much in this case given the FAQ on where the flamer can come from (anywhere on the base, not the turret like everything else).

CannedKhorne wrote:

bogalubov wrote:
The fact that xenos armies are gaining prominence keeps heldrakes useful. A lot of xenos armies don't have a great armor save so they rely on cover. Heldrakes ignore cover. So that unit of pathfinders hanging out on a backfield objective are now roasted elves. If you're fighting monstrous creatures, remember that you're not killing them with the flamer. You're killing them with vector strike (ok, all but the riptide, but hopefully the rest of your list isn't just cultists and can handle the riptide).

Plus you have a unit that can hit an enemy unit anywhere on the board. There's is no way to use movement to avoid being flamed. You can avoid vector striking, but not the baleflamer.

The appearance of anti-air weapons give you two options.

The first is to stop taking air units to disregard the anti-air. That's a descent idea, except that all of those units can shoot at the ground just as well. There are almost no units that have sky fire, but don't have interceptor. So you take units less annoying than the heldrake for your opponent, but your opponent still gets to shoot at them.

The second solution to the rise of anti-air is to spam heldrakes harder. If you bring on two or three onto the board at the same time. Now your opponent has choices of where to shoot. Perhaps not all his anti-air units have a line of sight on all your drakes. So now he splits his sky fire between multiple drakes, decreasing the chance of knocking a single one out.

I agree to everything.

Just to be clear, Helldrakes have to move at least 18 inchs and can only pivot 90 degrees? Flamer can be shot in any direction.

Sorry little behind on 6th edtion game play (just got back from college)

Incorrect. Drakes have hover mode.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
I play Tau and usually bring Railgun broadsides with Interceptor. If I have nothing else to shoot at a Fresh Heldrake I will use the Broadsides without a second thought because I don't want to risk them surviving.

sure go ahead, a bit decent player will make sure you dont intercept it by keeping out of range or getting screened by terrain, the turn after it will hammer its target, if something achieves positional dominance (jy2tm) then it is the drake, i use one for this sole purpose in my Necron wraith/Tesla spam.

They're not too difficult to hide most of the time, but I bring a lot railguns and fairly well deployed across the field. Besides, if he gives up his first turn to hide from Tau, it just makes it easier for Tau to bring it down on their turn.

*sigh*

When people whinge about how OP the Helldrake is... Honestly it wines me up, but I think that's only because I played with the Codex beforehand. And that sucked hard. Yes the Helldrake is a competitive option but its not neigh-unkillable as the internet thinks it is, mine has died countless times to a lot of types and variations of firepower, I only play casual but I use this model not because it wins games (to which I say BS, its a contributor not a unit that wins games singlehandedly) I use it because I like the the Idea of it as a massive daemonic dragon.

On a side note Helldrake is great but only as one role in the army I feel: taking out small elite units (non terminator Armour), with blobs its ok but not the best for example I once used mine to fire at a 'cron blob with a lord in it. I fired at it made some casualty's on it but, guess what? Res Orb you say? yep over half of the metal dudes came back up, also used it at a blob of 'Nids once and while it made casualty's it didn't reduce it to half numbers. so it is only really fitted to one role of killing small elite units and does it very nicely I think. Now how to kill it? multiple armies have easy methods to do so as most armies have fortifications to use high Str Skyfire weapons, and with each new codex release your getting more skyfire weapons, so while it seems very bad atm this is only temporary. every one will acquire more methods on killing it effectively with each codex release with minimal casualty's lessening its effectiveness.

Thats My view on the Helldrake.

They are, perhaps, less competitive, since as 6th edition goes on, more armies are gaining Flyers and/or units with Skyfire - things that can take the Helldrake down with relative ease.

That said, the Helldrake is still a nightmare for pretty much any army. AP3 + Ignores Cover is really nasty, and it will negate the saves of your quarry the vast majority of situations. The fact the Helldrake has such mobility just makes it worse.

So the players will access to the Helldrake think the rest of the internet is whining. Typical. The Helldrake is insanely undercosted for what it brings to the table, and its likely that disproportionate amounts of TAC lists will have to be dedicated to defending against these things.

Martel732 wrote:
So the players will access to the Helldrake think the rest of the internet is whining. Typical. The Helldrake is insanely undercosted for what it brings to the table, and its likely that disproportionate amounts of TAC lists will have to be dedicated to defending against these things.

It is just the way it is. Stop bitching.

Phil Kelley and the GW team knew exactly what they were releasing. The Helldrake is one of the best options in the CSM book, and it was meant to be that way.

It is an awesome model, both rule wise and aesthetically. It is a lot of fun to play with a demonic mechanical dragon that flies around and set's $hit on fire. Lot's of fun.

I suppose it depends on which end of the Helldrake you are on.

It's the way it is, has been, and always will be.

People complained about IG leafblowers. Then space wolf missile spam. Then GK razorspam or draigowing. Then necron wraith wing. Once 6th landed, it was cronair.

New books mean new powerful units. If you cannot adapt to this, it's gonna be a rough hobby for you. Fun is a subjective experience. If I bring 210 zombies and spread them out, maybe the dude with 3 heldrakes won't be having fun.

On topic... The drake auto hits with vector strike and ignores cover with ap3. The drake auto hits with the flamer and ignores cover with ap3. In zoom mode it ignores the assault phase and a vast majority of the shooting phase. This is what makes it competitive, but also takes very little skill and very little reliance on dice. It's also the reason I don't use any and never will.

I think one is prolly the right number just because it can autowin games against MEQ. Definitely not 3. 2 Maybe if the point level is high enough (2k+).

 hippesthippo wrote:
I think one is prolly the right number just because it can autowin games against MEQ. Definitely not 3. 2 Maybe if the point level is high enough (2k+).

Nah. You really need to be running 2 at 1500 Pt+

3 is dickish outside of competitive tournaments.

I've never had problems with only one. I take allies, though, so points are tight.

They're only really effective against marines. Who cares if I kill 5 Firewarriors or Guardsmen in cover? That's like 30-40 pts worth. Big woop. The thing is, they're broken against marines, so you have to take one.

The other thing is that it eats into your fast attack slots. 1 Drake is enough to do the job. Whereas I feel like units of spawn/bikes really don't work well unless you have multiples. With two units of Spawn you can effectively pin an opposing army in their backfield long enough to gain significant board advantage.

The issue with the drake is not its weapon.

It's the fire arc it has combined with the torrent rules. If can manipulate fantastic shots netting high amounts of hit and never have to leave the tabletop.

Before it was FAQed it was a very good unit but manageable. I keep hoping that GW faqs that it has 180 front arc at maximum, or go back to the 45 degree arc ideally.

Its durability is very good but still has a weak point with AV 10 rear.

 hippesthippo wrote:
I've never had problems with only one. I take allies, though, so points are tight.

They're only really effective against marines. Who cares if I kill 5 Firewarriors or Guardsmen in cover? That's like 30-40 pts worth. Big woop. The thing is, they're broken against marines, so you have to take one.

The other thing is that it eats into your fast attack slots. 1 Drake is enough to do the job. Whereas I feel like units of spawn/bikes really don't work well unless you have multiples. With two units of Spawn you can effectively pin an opposing army in their backfield long enough to gain significant board advantage.

Actually, they work against much more than just marines. Vector a transport, passengers inside get a 3" emergency disembark. Guess what happens next?

Opponent isn't always going to have an ideal spread on his ap3 vulnerable troops and units. I can't tell you the amount of times I have friend 10 or more in one torrent.

The vector strike on top of it is just ace. And if you know what you are doing, the drakes can work really well to limit where your opponent can move on the table.

Fantastic unit, A++ rules, and one of the coolest looking models in the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Glocknall wrote:
The issue with the drake is not its weapon.

It's the fire arc it has combined with the torrent rules. If can manipulate fantastic shots netting high amounts of hit and never have to leave the tabletop.

Before it was FAQed it was a very good unit but manageable. I keep hoping that GW faqs that it has 180 front arc at maximum, or go back to the 45 degree arc ideally.

Its durability is very good but still has a weak point with AV 10 rear.

GW is not going to FAQ it again. They have clearly spelled out how they want it to work.

It will be this way until the next Chaos book. Deal with it.

I am not afraid of them, but that's because I fully understand them and have adjusted my lists accordingly.

Relic07 wrote:

Glocknall wrote:
The issue with the drake is not its weapon.

It's the fire arc it has combined with the torrent rules. If can manipulate fantastic shots netting high amounts of hit and never have to leave the tabletop.

Before it was FAQed it was a very good unit but manageable. I keep hoping that GW faqs that it has 180 front arc at maximum, or go back to the 45 degree arc ideally.

Its durability is very good but still has a weak point with AV 10 rear.

GW is not going to FAQ it again. They have clearly spelled out how they want it to work.

It will be this way until the next Chaos book. Deal with it.

I am not afraid of them, but that's because I fully understand them and have adjusted my lists accordingly.

Actually GW have been known to completely change rulings (eg, Force Halberds adding their bonuses after being reduced to I1 was overturned), so it's a possibility.

Relic07 wrote:

 hippesthippo wrote:
I've never had problems with only one. I take allies, though, so points are tight.

They're only really effective against marines. Who cares if I kill 5 Firewarriors or Guardsmen in cover? That's like 30-40 pts worth. Big woop. The thing is, they're broken against marines, so you have to take one.

The other thing is that it eats into your fast attack slots. 1 Drake is enough to do the job. Whereas I feel like units of spawn/bikes really don't work well unless you have multiples. With two units of Spawn you can effectively pin an opposing army in their backfield long enough to gain significant board advantage.

Actually, they work against much more than just marines. Vector a transport, passengers inside get a 3" emergency disembark. Guess what happens next?

Opponent isn't always going to have an ideal spread on his ap3 vulnerable troops and units. I can't tell you the amount of times I have friend 10 or more in one torrent.

The vector strike on top of it is just ace. And if you know what you are doing, the drakes can work really well to limit where your opponent can move on the table.

Fantastic unit, A++ rules, and one of the coolest looking models in the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Glocknall wrote:
The issue with the drake is not its weapon.

It's the fire arc it has combined with the torrent rules. If can manipulate fantastic shots netting high amounts of hit and never have to leave the tabletop.

Before it was FAQed it was a very good unit but manageable. I keep hoping that GW faqs that it has 180 front arc at maximum, or go back to the 45 degree arc ideally.

Its durability is very good but still has a weak point with AV 10 rear.

GW is not going to FAQ it again. They have clearly spelled out how they want it to work.

It will be this way until the next Chaos book. Deal with it.

I am not afraid of them, but that's because I fully understand them and have adjusted my lists accordingly.

Mmm I think I know what I'm doing. Whoever your playing against that lets you get 10 guys under a template might not. Even spilling out of a transport that should never happen. Mayyyyyyybe if your opponent wins a combat and only consolidates a single inch. Maybe.

Vector strikes are great, yeah, but good opponents manage their movement so you can't fly over and land the way you want to. Even then, against side av11, your only averaging 1.5 hp.

I've yet to see a triple Heldrake list do well at even a RTT, let alone a big tourney. That alone should tell you something. They're great at what they do, but putting 500 points into three flame templates that don't start on the board is not going to get you a balanced list.

Against some armies even a single Heldrake can almost win the game itself. However, against a lot of other armies, it simply isn't very efficient.

Heldrakes definitely are a very competitive unit.

However, I wouldn't go with any more than 2 drakes at most. Going triple-drakes over-specializes your army against particular builds (i.e. mainly MEQ builds) and unbalances your list against other builds.