Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Im building up a CSM list (Typhus, 2x7 Plague Marines - plasma, 2x2 Oblits, 20x Zombies) with IG allies (Vendetta, 20x blob with autocannons/plasma, Leman Russ battle), with a lot of plasma, and Im rounding out my list. I originally planned on taking a helldrake of course, but Im really questioning its effectiveness in the competitive environment. Its a fantastic unit to fight MEQs, but MEQs are not what were seeing in the tournament scene right now... We see Flying Necrons with Wraiths, big guard blobs, and very very soon well be seeing ALOT of Tau with some Eldar too (as people love em).

Now, the helldrake isnt particularly great against guard blobs (when they have feel no pain or 5++ and spread out), is almost useless against the necron list i described above, and against Tau it wont last long (and is good at killing fire warriors or crisis suits which I dont need help killing), though its solid against Eldar ... Im really thinking taking more Oblits will be of more use against Tau then the helldrake as they will be seen a lot. With 2+ riptides and battle suits, i believe i need the viability of the oblits over the helldrake. While im still going to come up against MEQs, I do feel I can grind out a win against other armies but need everything i can get my hands on to beat these other top armies. Again, please take this post as a assessment of the helldrake in tournament play...

What are your opinions?

Well IG with FNP don't get it against the Drake (he doubles them out.). The drake is also good at taking out screening units, and cheap backfield scoring units. It can also fly over screens. NOw I'm not saying it must be included, but it certainly is still competitive.

You do understand half of the armies are meq based?
Besides that, t6 means most xenos gets instant death.

Everything the heldrake has ignores cover which is a huge thing for most xenos players.

Heldrakes can certainly carry an army to victory

Serious? The helldrake almost single handedly changed the meta and ruined pretty much every single power armour army out there. AP3, ignore cover on a fast, hard to kill flyer. Still the best unit in the game by a decent margin.

Meta shifts can cancel out a Helldrake.

It is such a dominating trump card to pull that almost every list for Chaos made has a comment (y you no taek moar Heldrak?) about adding one or more to a list.

So if regionally players have adapted to Heldrakes and their tactics, taking one reduces its return investment in points.

And if your Heldrake is under performing it doesn't it is not competitive anymore, but rather you have to replace that 170 or so points with something else to fill the gap.

It is still an effective tool, but one you have to decide if it is worth taking against what you know is out there.

How exactly are these blobs of guardsmen getting FnP all of a sudden?

I'm not aware of anything that gives it to them outside of some random warlord trait or something.

CCS can't join the blobs and I don't recall blobs getting a medic.

they get it from Biomancy Psychic powers. Not a given in every game, but it happens.

The heldrake is still competitive, it has lost a little in tornament play because of the rise of the tau; and the chance of encountering them - it'll lose a little bit more as the nex few codexes (ices) are released. But it is still a good unit to go to for air support and shifting units camping out in cover. Hordes and MEQ its awesome against. I'd much rather have people trying to shoot it up rather than the CSMs on the ground which will actually go about capturing things and winning the game for me.

Glad to see the responses. Firstly, i did modify the title to isnt "as" competitive... The statement "isnt competitive" is a bit heavy handed. Additionally, I know there was a mention of half the armies are MEQ, and while half the codexs are, half the top tournament armies are NOT MEQs... I really do believe Tau have brough a BIG shift to the tournament meta which is what I need to adapt to. The armies I listed above which is what I often see in a highly competitive environment simply arent susceptible to the helldrake. Im not concerned about MEQ armies (outside ravenwing which the helldrake destroyed) as I saw that mentioned several times. This is where I think oblits really may be the stronger option, in particular against Tau & Necrons. Even if I come up against some Nids or Daemons, Im much more worried about the big MCs than I am about the gribbly squads, of which the oblits will perform much better against.

To answer the question about guard blobs getting a 5++, feel no pain, 5+ cover, its a result of attaching a marine librarian and primaris psy. and getting divination or boimancy buffs (in all likelihood a runepriest) which is very very common to run into.

Keep this going! Thanks All in advance for the disucssion

*I do agree however with the last statement about this (along with the vendetta) being a solid target unit, of which the enemy should focus their firepower on, leaving my ground squads more open to do what they need to do.

 Makutsu wrote:
You do understand half of the armies are meq based?
Besides that, t6 means most xenos gets instant death.

Everything the heldrake has ignores cover which is a huge thing for most xenos players.

Heldrakes can certainly carry an army to victory

No, half the competitive armies are not MEQ based at the moment (1 full MEQ army in top 16 at adepticon if i recall - grey knights with paladins), most xenos im worried about only have 1 wound too...

I feel the Helldrake is very competitive and take as many as possible. I've never used one, but I have been screwed by one more times then I would have like (my poor ravenwing bikers )

As long as 6e keeps handing out stealth and shrouded like candy, Heldrakes will have a place in competitive army builds.

 Loch wrote:
As long as 6e keeps handing out stealth and shrouded like candy, Heldrakes will have a place in competitive army builds.

yes


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ForgeMarine wrote:
Im building up a CSM list (Typhus, 2x7 Plague Marines - plasma, 2x2 Oblits, 20x Zombies) with IG allies (Vendetta, 20x blob with autocannons/plasma, Leman Russ battle), with a lot of plasma, and Im rounding out my list. I originally planned on taking a helldrake of course, but Im really questioning its effectiveness in the competitive environment. Its a fantastic unit to fight MEQs, but MEQs are not what were seeing in the tournament scene right now... We see Flying Necrons with Wraiths, big guard blobs, and very very soon well be seeing ALOT of Tau with some Eldar too (as people love em).

Now, the helldrake isnt particularly great against guard blobs (when they have feel no pain or 5++ and spread out), is almost useless against the necron list i described above, and against Tau it wont last long (and is good at killing fire warriors or crisis suits which I dont need help killing), though its solid against Eldar ... Im really thinking taking more Oblits will be of more use against Tau then the helldrake as they will be seen a lot. With 2+ riptides and battle suits, i believe i need the viability of the oblits over the helldrake. While im still going to come up against MEQs, I do feel I can grind out a win against other armies but need everything i can get my hands on to beat these other top armies. Again, please take this post as a assessment of the helldrake in tournament play...

What are your opinions?

so you start seeing more eldar. You know what kills Jetbikes?
so you are seeing necrons, the drake doesnt do terribly against newcron flyers and can hammer their scoring units.
so you are seeing guard, they are probably bunched up in cover, and FNP is canceled by str6. also if they are using artillery, the vector strike will usually kill them easily.
so you are seeing tau. heldrakes put wounds on suits, kill drones, and wipe fire warriors.

The thing is, IG counters the Hellturkey through Vendettas. The Tau have enough Interceptor/Skyfire to laugh a Turkey off the table the turn it arrives. (and there is nothing better then getting a vindictive laugh when that Guardsmen with a Krak Grenade launcher takes off that last hull point out of desperation).

Not saying they're not still the superpowered auto-take they were in December; they're still great, and my Dark Angels cringe whenever they see one.

I agree they are great against Eldar as I mentioned, and bikes will be very popular, so were in agreement there.

As for Necron, the problem is the drake is OK if I can get to their troops, which are most usually inside a flyer... So its an expensive way to go about trying to take down flyers, and its not worth much against wraiths...

Guard, its a mixed bag I feel like. Is the drake THAT much better than a few more oblits at taking down blobs, considering I still have a Leman Russ and my own blobs to try and counter.

Tau kill helldrakes, and fast... Ive seen several occurrences were 2 helldrake went down in less than a full game turn (with interceptor on sky rays, rip tides and marker lights, they crash and burn rather fast) and I think that will be fairly common.


With that said, the consensus is I should really still consider one, but I havent seen a fully built argument for it yet that convinces me... Thanks everyone however for your thoughts, It certainly gives me a lot to think about before i make that purchase.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

ForgeMarine wrote:

What are your opinions?

so you start seeing more eldar. You know what kills Jetbikes?
so you are seeing necrons, the drake doesnt do terribly against newcron flyers and can hammer their scoring units.
so you are seeing guard, they are probably bunched up in cover, and FNP is canceled by str6. also if they are using artillery, the vector strike will usually kill them easily.
so you are seeing tau. heldrakes put wounds on suits, kill drones, and wipe fire warriors.

Yes... yes... My master plan to stop people bringing helldrakes is working...

I feel like my Tau can beat anyone, but I seriously don't want to ever see heldrakes across from me. My philosophy regarding Tau consists of shooting the enemy off of objectives or contesting objectives with Riptides late in game, I still need fire warriors to hold objectives and if there is a heldrake in play I can't count on those fire warriors.

The idea that a heldrake isn't competitive is ludicrous.

Are they are good as before? No.

Are they still crazy good? Yes.

The killing capacity of a helldrake is still quite significant.

autopilot wrote:
Yes... yes... My master plan to stop people bringing helldrakes is working...

*Brings in a six helldrake list out of spite*

valace2 wrote:
I feel like my Tau can beat anyone, but I seriously don't want to ever see heldrakes across from me. My philosophy regarding Tau consists of shooting the enemy off of objectives or contesting objectives with Riptides late in game, I still need fire warriors to hold objectives and if there is a heldrake in play I can't count on those fire warriors.

The idea that a helldrake isn't competitive is ludicrous.

I play Tau as well but let me tell you - Daemons are more than a match for my Tau. My meta is rich in Daemons, Chaos SM and Tyranids. Daemons in particular make me feel very vulnerable and when the Chaos players bring Daemons with Helldrakes its nearly an autolose battle.

If you're feeling that the Heldrake is vulnerable because of the Tau Anti-air, the Vendetta suffers the same issue even more since it can't regrow hull points or get an invul save.

Really though I think people are too focused on the baleflamer as being AP3 so it's peak usefulness is against marines, anything less and you're paying for extra. For me the Heldrake has always been just amazing at clearing scoring units from objectives no matter where they are hidden and with the durability to make it reliable.

If you're feeling that the Heldrake isn't as good as it was, fill that 3rd Fast Attack slot with Bikers or Spawn and see how it goes. 2 Heldrakes are still a nightmare.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
If you're feeling that the Heldrake isn't as good as it was, fill that 3rd Fast Attack slot with Bikers or Spawn and see how it goes. 2 Heldrakes are still a nightmare.

Honestly I've never found a need for more than 2. Two helldrakes has always killed everything that I needed to be killed by them.

ForgeMarine wrote:

Tau kill helldrakes, and fast... Ive seen several occurrences were 2 helldrake went down in less than a full game turn (with interceptor on sky rays, rip tides and marker lights, they crash and burn rather fast) and I think that will be fairly common.

A small point is that sky rays cannot get interceptor. Only suits can get interceptor and skyfire.

Also helldrakes are very scary to tau players, our troops are still as fragile as they always have been. Helldrakes are the reason so many tau players are bringing all that anti air defense in the first place.

The Heldrake is still an amazing steal. It would be a steal at +50 points and still fairly priced and worth buying at +75 points.

I am not sure that it is "necessary" per say but if you don't bring it you need a way to kill Sv3+ w/ Sv3+/2+ cover saves (eldar jetbikes, RW bikes, Wraithguard w/ psychic support, SM behind aegis) volume of fire could do it but as a CSM/IG player you lack the Tau ability to ignore cover everywhere. You can probably handle the Sv4+ w/ cover using oblits but they will fail hard against Sv3+ guys.

Also the vector strikes are highly useful against sub AV12 transports that popped smoke or have cover (waveserpents w/holofields). It is funny that Tau so reduced their value but eldar turned around and made them almost necessary. If your meta is all Tau then you can probably stop using them but if there are RW or (to early to tell probably) Eldar (Skimmer spam, wraithguard spam, or jetbike spam) then you probably need 1-2.

ForgeMarine wrote:
Im building up a CSM list (Typhus, 2x7 Plague Marines - plasma, 2x2 Oblits, 20x Zombies) with IG allies (Vendetta, 20x blob with autocannons/plasma, Leman Russ battle), with a lot of plasma, and Im rounding out my list. I originally planned on taking a helldrake of course, but Im really questioning its effectiveness in the competitive environment. Its a fantastic unit to fight MEQs, but MEQs are not what were seeing in the tournament scene right now... We see Flying Necrons with Wraiths, big guard blobs, and very very soon well be seeing ALOT of Tau with some Eldar too (as people love em).

Now, the helldrake isnt particularly great against guard blobs (when they have feel no pain or 5++ and spread out), is almost useless against the necron list i described above, and against Tau it wont last long (and is good at killing fire warriors or crisis suits which I dont need help killing), though its solid against Eldar ... Im really thinking taking more Oblits will be of more use against Tau then the helldrake as they will be seen a lot. With 2+ riptides and battle suits, i believe i need the viability of the oblits over the helldrake. While im still going to come up against MEQs, I do feel I can grind out a win against other armies but need everything i can get my hands on to beat these other top armies. Again, please take this post as a assessment of the helldrake in tournament play...

What are your opinions?

Crisis suits have a 3+ save like power armor.

Guardian jetbikes have a 3+ save like power armor and a jink

Wraith guard are t6 and have a 3+ save like power armor.

As the meta shifts toward a greater number of xenos armies past necrons drakes will be more useful.

Riptides and TEQ are a concern, but hell turkeys are what other players fear when going up against CSM.

Heldrake is one of the most OP fliers out atm...There really isn't a reason not to take it

Let me put it this way, I play Tau and never want to see even one. Can I kill it, probably. I might even be able to bring them down reliably, but it will bloody well make me waste far more firepower bringing it down than I'd like given how much it cost the opponents to take.

We have a Heldrake Spam player in my meta. He has always Mr Big Head regarding his win streak.

Then he faced my Deathwing on Foot List.

The best hard counter to the Drake is 2+ AS. It can't touch them, while the large amount of Firepower is enough to take them out.

Now he won't face me.

I play Tau and usually bring Railgun broadsides with Interceptor. If I have nothing else to shoot at a Fresh Heldrake I will use the Broadsides without a second thought because I don't want to risk them surviving.