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Paying for transport capacity is one of the problems with the Stormraven. Helldrakes are still the most powerful unit in terms of meta-definition in 6th edition so far.

Martel732 wrote:
Paying for transport capacity is one of the problems with the Stormraven. Helldrakes are still the most powerful unit in terms of meta-definition in 6th edition so far.

stormravens dont pay for the transport capacity, just like vendettas dont

The helldrake is a good unit to have for every CSM, I think it will be competitive for quite some time.Later on in 6th edition it will becomeless competitive with more AA coming out.

 Exergy wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Paying for transport capacity is one of the problems with the Stormraven. Helldrakes are still the most powerful unit in terms of meta-definition in 6th edition so far.

stormravens dont pay for the transport capacity, just like vendettas dont

SRs pay for PotMS, Plateing, and specialist missiles.

CannedKhorne wrote:
The helldrake is a good unit to have for every CSM, I think it will be competitive for quite some time.Later on in 6th edition it will becomeless competitive with more AA coming out.

I'm not so sure, aside from the Tau Codex the other three since 6th haven't added much in the way of 'reliable and cost effective AA' that can compete with the overall value of 2 Helldrakes.

 Exergy wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Paying for transport capacity is one of the problems with the Stormraven. Helldrakes are still the most powerful unit in terms of meta-definition in 6th edition so far.

stormravens dont pay for the transport capacity, just like vendettas dont

This is a great thread, thanks for this discussion.

I'm taking a Heldrake because everyone said so.

All I knew was that it had an AP3 flame and is a flyer.

My local meta is all MEQs, so it made sense.

Now I'm starting to see the broader issues.

My planned army is similar to OP's: Plague Marines, Oblits.

So all this really helps me choose how to use Heldrakes.

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:

CannedKhorne wrote:
The helldrake is a good unit to have for every CSM, I think it will be competitive for quite some time.Later on in 6th edition it will becomeless competitive with more AA coming out.

I'm not so sure, aside from the Tau Codex the other three since 6th haven't added much in the way of 'reliable and cost effective AA' that can compete with the overall value of 2 Helldrakes.

Well, fliers with intercept are a threat to drakes. Although, almost every game I have played with 2 drakes they have been fine, I have only had a helldrake explode one time.

For the record, Eldar can deal with Helldrakes.
Check out how stupid Serpent spam gets with a Scatter laser plus the Shield firing.

Triple Drake lists are still a major problem for most armies/lists apart from 2+ spam

Its mediocre against anything that isnt in power armor imo.

 Goat wrote:
The heldrake is really a missed opportunity. It should have been a flying walker. The template weapon should have also had a second fire mode for ap2. Maybe even have a transport capacity but I think that might be pushing it. It would need a points increase at that point. They just needed something more to keep them competative.

What?

 Billagio wrote:
Its mediocre against anything that isnt in power armor imo.

I think HDs are just a badass againist other army beside MEQ, don't get me wrong the helldrake kills more points againist marines. Versus anything else (besides +2) it still takes off handfuls of model per turn, and maybe a tank... Haha.

With 2 on the back it amazing the damage they deal together, 3 is just exteremly difficult for armies to deal with.

I have had all 3 Drakes come on turn 2 and completely destroy 3 10 man tau and eldar units (allied force).

whoever says Heldrakes isn't competitive is just silly.

Well, I like fighting against dual or even triple HellDrake lists. The more dependence a player has on any one thing, be fliers or Death Stars, the more fun it is to crush it and clean up.

That's the Orky way. The bigger they are, the harder they fall.

 PipeAlley wrote:
Well, I like fighting against dual or even triple HellDrake lists. The more dependence a player has on any one thing, be fliers or Death Stars, the more fun it is to crush it and clean up.

That's the Orky way. The bigger they are, the harder they fall.

It is very fun to beat Deathstar/3 Drake list.

Some CSM do depend on HDs killing power. I try not too, but I enjoy running 2 to have fast ability to kill units like LF, and Havocs. I try not to reliable on thing to kill everything, but they are a very competitive helpful units.

 Billagio wrote:
Its mediocre against anything that isnt in power armor imo.

Um no... it kills any thing that doesn't have a 2+ save. So it will kill tau, elder, faurd, cultists etc. in droves. The only thing it won't drop are multi-wound high toughness single model units (like riptides) and things with 2+ armor.

Heldrakes are just as competitive as they've always been really.

So you are seeing more Predators than Dev/Long Fang squads? That's cool. Vector Strike for D3+1 S7 hits on the AV 11 side armor. Each hit has a 50% chance to strip a hull point and 33% chance to Penetrate. Oh wait, you also have a S6 Torrent weapon with a 360 degree fire arc. Drop it on the rear armor of the Predator. It also has a 50% chance to strip a hull point and a 33% chance to Penetrate.

Minimally you are talking about 3 hits, at most 5 hits. Even with 3 hits you have a fairly decent chance of knocking out the Predator in one go. And that ignores other anti-tank options like Obliterators.


I don't see Predators as a hard counter to Heldrakes. I do think I'll be mixing it up and taking a Predator (or 2) and a Long Fang Pack, but seriously. Heldrakes are highly disruptive and will be my least favorite thing to face, outside of Grey Knight Terminators and Genestealers.

Pony_law wrote:

 Billagio wrote:
Its mediocre against anything that isnt in power armor imo.

Um no... it kills any thing that doesn't have a 2+ save. So it will kill tau, elder, faurd, cultists etc. in droves. The only thing it won't drop are multi-wound high toughness single model units (like riptides) and things with 2+ armor.

Obviously. But things that dont have 3+ saves are usually easily killed by other things as well. The HD has the unique capability of killing Power armor in cover without allowing saves besides invuls.

The Helldrakes just kills handfuls or models every turn, beside +2. Its a solid unit and is tough to pass up for a CSM player.

I like to run 2 and 1 spawn units with Lord. 3 HD feels weird to play... Haha.

People call you a dick for running 3 in non-compettive games, but in a tournament I may consider it. Although I do like my spawn unit.

cowmonaut wrote:
Heldrakes are just as competitive as they've always been really.

So you are seeing more Predators than Dev/Long Fang squads? That's cool. Vector Strike for D3+1 S7 hits on the AV 11 side armor. Each hit has a 50% chance to strip a hull point and 33% chance to Penetrate. Oh wait, you also have a S6 Torrent weapon with a 360 degree fire arc. Drop it on the rear armor of the Predator. It also has a 50% chance to strip a hull point and a 33% chance to Penetrate.

Minimally you are talking about 3 hits, at most 5 hits. Even with 3 hits you have a fairly decent chance of knocking out the Predator in one go. And that ignores other anti-tank options like Obliterators.


I don't see Predators as a hard counter to Heldrakes. I do think I'll be mixing it up and taking a Predator (or 2) and a Long Fang Pack, but seriously. Heldrakes are highly disruptive and will be my least favorite thing to face, outside of Grey Knight Terminators and Genestealers.

While im not planning on seeing many more predators, I do plan on seeing a lot more Tau, which as mentioned will really prove to be a challenge.

With that said, anyone see using the heldrake in HOVER mode to wait it out (out of range if possible) till you can drop some of the skyrays/riptides?

Lastly, if I really have problems with Tau, I suppose I can always play my other army (space wolves) which are capable of absolutely eating tau (jaws loves to eat up broadsides and riptides and combi-plasma galore). Saw a drop wolves list absolutely eat a tournament winning tau list in 2 turns, it was wild.

ForgeMarine wrote:
With that said, anyone see using the heldrake in HOVER mode to wait it out (out of range if possible) till you can drop some of the skyrays/riptides?

It doesn't work the way you think it does I don't think. If you are in Hover mode you are still on the giant Flyer stand IIRC. You pretty much can't hide behind anything. All that would do is A) make it so you can't Vector Strike (I think you have to be zooming to do it) and B) make it so they don't need Skyfire to shoot at you with full BS.

AFAIK there is no reason to go into Hover Mode with a Heldrake unless your movement is constrained.

ForgeMarine wrote:
Lastly, if I really have problems with Tau, I suppose I can always play my other army (space wolves) which are capable of absolutely eating tau (jaws loves to eat up broadsides and riptides and combi-plasma galore). Saw a drop wolves list absolutely eat a tournament winning tau list in 2 turns, it was wild.

You should be able to handle them with CSM. They thing is you just have little hope of out shooting them so you have to get in close some how.

cowmonaut wrote:

ForgeMarine wrote:
With that said, anyone see using the heldrake in HOVER mode to wait it out (out of range if possible) till you can drop some of the skyrays/riptides?

It doesn't work the way you think it does I don't think. If you are in Hover mode you are still on the giant Flyer stand IIRC. You pretty much can't hide behind anything. All that would do is A) make it so you can't Vector Strike (I think you have to be zooming to do it) and B) make it so they don't need Skyfire to shoot at you with full BS.

AFAIK there is no reason to go into Hover Mode with a Heldrake unless your movement is constrained.

ForgeMarine wrote:
Lastly, if I really have problems with Tau, I suppose I can always play my other army (space wolves) which are capable of absolutely eating tau (jaws loves to eat up broadsides and riptides and combi-plasma galore). Saw a drop wolves list absolutely eat a tournament winning tau list in 2 turns, it was wild.

You should be able to handle them with CSM. They thing is you just have little hope of out shooting them so you have to get in close some how.

I don't have my BRB with me...

But, couldn't you start the 'drake on the table in Hover... then, when it's your turn, start swooping? That way, you're on the table in turn 1 and can burinate at will?

No. Flyers always have to start in reserve.

Corollax wrote:
No. Flyers always have to start in reserve.

Ah... I thought that the fact that it could hover in skimmer mode, it could start on the table in skimmer mode on first turn.

But, because it's a "Flyer", it has to start in reserve...right?

 whembly wrote:

Corollax wrote:
No. Flyers always have to start in reserve.

Ah... I thought that the fact that it could hover in skimmer mode, it could start on the table in skimmer mode on first turn.

But, because it's a "Flyer", it has to start in reserve...right?

If it's not a monstrous creature and it flies, it must be in reserves unless it specifically says it can start on the board.

I'm still running a flyer spam CSM+Crons list and doing really well in my meta. There are a couple DA players but they bring LR's and I bring scarabs >.<

 Kain wrote:

 whembly wrote:

Corollax wrote:
No. Flyers always have to start in reserve.

Ah... I thought that the fact that it could hover in skimmer mode, it could start on the table in skimmer mode on first turn.

But, because it's a "Flyer", it has to start in reserve...right?

If it's not a monstrous creature and it flies, it must be in reserves unless it specifically says it can start on the board.

Yes, True, but I can come on the board moving 6 inches in hover mode outside missile range, then start flying next turn if i need to wait it out to try and take down that skyray...

If you're in skimmer mode against Tau, Skyrays would be the least of your worries.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
If you're in skimmer mode against Tau, Skyrays would be the least of your worries.

Not if im out of range. I know I couldnt remain in skimmer mode for long, but if I can keep distance for just a round till i can further take down more of the AA it may work out well... Same goes for the Vendettas

With a 72" range on Seeker Missiles, good luck being "out of range". And being stuck on a Flyer stand, you won't be hiding behind anything either.