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Post by: nemoaddler1979
Thinking of fielding biovores and wondering if preferred enemy would help them at all being it states re-rolls 1, and barrages use blast rule for to hit and they don't roll to hit?
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Post by: Nilok
This keeps coming up every time there is a re-roll one and scatter (or Gets Hot).
From the other topics, if you have the option to re-roll, you can re-roll (but only against things that fits all the criteria for PE).
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Post by: Amoras
You can reroll the to wound rolls of 1, But it doesn't do annything for hitting.
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Post by: JinxDragon
There is two lines of thoughts on this matter, both opposite interpretations of course. The first is that the re-rolling of 1 is enough to meet the limitations under Blast Weapons and Rerolls, page 33. The logic is simple, you are given permission to re-roll the dice should any dice show a 1. Therefore, if any of the dice show a 1, you have met the re-roll requirements and can evoke the re-rolling rule exactly as written. This is further supported by certain units named in certain re-roll 1 rules, while only ever being able to fire blast weapons. The second interpretation is that re-roll of 1's are not enough to meet the limitations on page 33 so you can not evoke the rule. This is based on the logic that re-rolling 1's and re-rolling are two completely different terms. As the blast marker rules do not address re-rolling of 1 it does not give you permission to evoke this rule. Just because two terms are similar they are still not interchangeable, no matter how close the situation, unless the rule gives you permission to use either of them. I, personally, am now undecided on this matter after hearing both sides out in past threads with similar topics. I used to lean towards the first in the past but have moved more back towards the center on this matter. The second does fill the rules as written a bit better because it is true that similar situations are not grounds to switch around terms. Yet the first makes sense on a rules as interpreted level, as you have permission to re-roll even if it has additional limitations. Sorry I couldn't be more helpful, but there is the situation you face.
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Post by: Peregrine
JinxDragon wrote:There is two lines of thoughts on this matter, both opposite interpretations of course.
You're missing the third and correct interpretation: the blast weapon rules clearly state that if you have a re-roll to hit you may re-roll the scatter dice instead. A model with preferred enemy (shooting against an appropriate target) has a re-roll to hit, therefore you may re-roll the scatter dice.
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Post by: JinxDragon
Should you want to add the argument that the term re-roll 1's is identical to the term re-roll feel free to add it to the debate. I have seen it in the past and it did not seem to go over well, with most people on the 'yes, it can be re-rolled' side supporting the limitation that a 1 would be needed before you could evoke page 33. I didn't consider it heavily because of that reason, but if you think I am in error then by all means do support it in further debates. As I mentioned, I am undecided on this issue and can be swayed by a compelling answer when it comes to many things. You know what, can the opening poster start a poll with all three options?
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Post by: Peregrine
Re-rolling 1s is a type of re-rolling to hit.
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Post by: nosferatu1001
If you have the ability to re-roll, you re-roll the scatter.
PE gives you the ability to reroll - 1's only maybe, but you DO get to reroll. The rules for blasts do not require that you be able to reroll *all* dice
In short, I agree with Peregrine. Which really doesnt happen often
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Post by: Mahtamori
But is it 1's on the individual die you look at or do you look at the result of the two dice?
Peregrine wrote:JinxDragon wrote:There is two lines of thoughts on this matter, both opposite interpretations of course.
You're missing the third and correct interpretation: the blast weapon rules clearly state that if you have a re-roll to hit you may re-roll the scatter dice instead. A model with preferred enemy (shooting against an appropriate target) has a re-roll to hit, therefore you may re-roll the scatter dice.
"Must" re-roll the scatter dice as well, not "may"
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Post by: nosferatu1001
Irrelevant - being able to reroll to hit allows you to reroll scatter dice. The rerroll 1 is irrelevant - you reroll all scatter dice, no matter the result, if you wish
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Post by: ClassicCarraway
nosferatu1001 wrote:Irrelevant - being able to reroll to hit allows you to reroll scatter dice. The rerroll 1 is irrelevant - you reroll all scatter dice, no matter the result, if you wish
So if I'm understanding you correctly, you are saying that Preferred Enemy allows one to reroll a scatter dice??? How are you making this connection? Preferred Enemy states you can reroll To Hit results of 1. Since you never rolled a 1 to hit (blast/barrage don't have a To Hit roll), there is no reroll granted from Preferred Enemy. If Preferred Enemy just gave you a blanket reroll, then you'd be fine to reroll the scatter, but you have to meet the requirement first before you are granted a reroll.
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Post by: Happyjew
Classic, there are three ways of looking at it (and I refuse to claim one is right):
1. Since scatter can never be a To Hit roll of 1, it does not work.
2. Since you have the ability to re-roll (regardless of stipulations), you have permission to re-roll the scatter.
3. Same as 2 except you must roll at least one "1" in order to re-roll the scatter.
How I play it is 1.
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Post by: ClassicCarraway
Happyjew wrote:Classic, there are three ways of looking at it (and I refuse to claim one is right):
1. Since scatter can never be a To Hit roll of 1, it does not work.
2. Since you have the ability to re-roll (regardless of stipulations), you have permission to re-roll the scatter.
3. Same as 2 except you must roll at least one "1" in order to re-roll the scatter.
How I play it is 1.
#1 is how I play it as well. I'm just not understanding how 2 & 3 are even considered valid, and I'm trying to get a handle on the rules interpretation that would make 2 and/or 3 valid. Preferred Enemy doesn't grant a blanket reroll on a missed To Hit, it specifically states that a To Hit roll of 1 is required before granting the reroll, which can't happen with blast/barrage weapons.
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Post by: Happyjew
The logic is as follows.
1. If a model can re-roll To Hit rolls then with a Blast weapon they can re-roll the scatter.
2. Preferred Enemy allows a model to re-roll To Hit rolls of 1.
3. Since the model can re-roll some To Hit rolls, it meets the necessary minimum to re-roll the scatter.
I have no idea where number 3 came from, but it was mentioned earlier so I included it for completeness.
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Post by: ClassicCarraway
Happyjew wrote:The logic is as follows.
1. If a model can re-roll To Hit rolls then with a Blast weapon they can re-roll the scatter.
2. Preferred Enemy allows a model to re-roll To Hit rolls of 1.
3. Since the model can re-roll some To Hit rolls, it meets the necessary minimum to re-roll the scatter.
I have no idea where number 3 came from, but it was mentioned earlier so I included it for completeness.
Okay, I get where they are coming from now.
Its a....liberal...interpretation to say the least, and I don't agree with it at all, but I at least can see where they are getting the connection.
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Post by: Peregrine
Happyjew wrote:I have no idea where number 3 came from, but it was mentioned earlier so I included it for completeness.
Because the blast weapon rules say that you get to re-roll the scatter dice if you have a re-roll to hit. It doesn't say "if you have a twin-linked weapon" or "if you have the ability to re-roll all misses" or anything like that, it just checks if you have a re-roll of some kind. Preferred enemy gives a re-roll to hit (a re-roll of some dice is still a re-roll), so it lets you re-roll the scatter dice.
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Post by: grendel083
I've got to disagree, Preferred Enemy doesn't give the ability to re-roll, but the potential to re-roll.
Without rolling a 1 no re-roll roll is granted (in a similar vein with normal re-rolls, if a hit is rolled there is no re-roll granted).
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Post by: Happyjew
Peregrine wrote: Happyjew wrote:I have no idea where number 3 came from, but it was mentioned earlier so I included it for completeness.
Because the blast weapon rules say that you get to re-roll the scatter dice if you have a re-roll to hit. It doesn't say "if you have a twin-linked weapon" or "if you have the ability to re-roll all misses" or anything like that, it just checks if you have a re-roll of some kind. Preferred enemy gives a re-roll to hit (a re-roll of some dice is still a re-roll), so it lets you re-roll the scatter dice.
You misunderstand (my fault, I wasn't clear). I was referring to my number 3 from earlier when I said:
Happyjew wrote:Classic, there are three ways of looking at it (and I refuse to claim one is right):
1. Since scatter can never be a To Hit roll of 1, it does not work.
2. Since you have the ability to re-roll (regardless of stipulations), you have permission to re-roll the scatter.
3. Same as 2 except you must roll at least one "1" in order to re-roll the scatter.
How I play it is 1.
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Post by: Peregrine
Happyjew wrote:You misunderstand (my fault, I wasn't clear). I was referring to my number 3 from earlier when I said:
Oh, I thought you meant #3 on the list in that post, not #3 in the earlier list. I also have no idea where the "must roll at least one 1 on the scatter dice" thing came from, it's certainly not anywhere in the rulebook. The two options are either "doesn't work at all" or an unconditional "can re-roll the scatter dice".
(And of course the second option is the correct one.)
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Post by: ClassicCarraway
grendel083 wrote:I've got to disagree, Preferred Enemy doesn't give the ability to re-roll, but the potential to re-roll.
Without rolling a 1 no re-roll roll is granted (in a similar vein with normal re-rolls, if a hit is rolled there is no re-roll granted).
Exactly. Preferred Enemy by itself does not grant a reroll, its PE plus a To Hit roll of 1 that grants the reroll, No To Hit roll of 1 means no reroll granted.
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Post by: rigeld2
ClassicCarraway wrote: grendel083 wrote:I've got to disagree, Preferred Enemy doesn't give the ability to re-roll, but the potential to re-roll.
Without rolling a 1 no re-roll roll is granted (in a similar vein with normal re-rolls, if a hit is rolled there is no re-roll granted).
Exactly. Preferred Enemy by itself does not grant a reroll, its PE plus a To Hit roll of 1 that grants the reroll, No To Hit roll of 1 means no reroll granted.
That's like saying its not twin-linked granting the reroll, it's twin-linked and a failed to hit roll that grants it.
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Post by: grendel083
rigeld2 wrote:That's like saying its not twin-linked granting the reroll, it's twin-linked and a failed to hit roll that grants it.
If you hit, are you allowed to re-roll?
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Post by: Chris Lysander
This actually works in the same principle as a plasma cannon user with preferred enemy. Rolling for overheat, no reroll, and since its not twinlinked which is the same as a biovore, you cannot reroll the scatter dice its self. Then you move onto the ons you rolled on your scatter... not to hits, they are distance dice there for no reroll of ones, the only thing you get re rolls on is to wound of ones
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Post by: Peregrine
That's not the point. You aren't re-rolling the scatter dice because they're to-hit rolls, you're re-rolling the scatter dice because if you would have a re-roll to hit then you get to re-roll the scatter dice (see the blast weapon rules). Automatically Appended Next Post: ClassicCarraway wrote:Preferred Enemy by itself does not grant a reroll, its PE plus a To Hit roll of 1 that grants the reroll, No To Hit roll of 1 means no reroll granted.
But that's not how it works. The rule doesn't say something like "if you roll a 1 to hit your weapon gains the 'twin linked' rule for the rest of the phase", it just gives you a re-roll to hit which can be used on certain dice. And as long as you have that re-roll you have enough to satisfy the "if you have a re-roll to hit" requirement on gaining a re-roll on the scatter dice.
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Post by: rigeld2
grendel083 wrote:rigeld2 wrote:That's like saying its not twin-linked granting the reroll, it's twin-linked and a failed to hit roll that grants it.
If you hit, are you allowed to re-roll?
With Twin-Linked, no.
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Post by: grendel083
So in order to get a re-roll you need need twin-linked on your weapon, and a missed to To Hit roll.
Until you miss, you don't know if you're allowed to re-roll.
So a missed To Hit roll is a requirement of gaining a re-roll, as well as having the Twin-Linked rule.
Blast replaces the To Hit roll with its own version (p33 "models do not roll To Hit. Instead...").
So same situation, in order to gain a re-roll you need to miss and have Twin-Linked.
Preferred Enemy has a third requirement. Those misses must also be a 1. Something you can't fulfil with a scatter.
So the model does not have the ability to re-roll, because it did not meet the requirements to gain a re-roll.
Just my theory anyway. Feel free to pick it apart.
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Post by: ClassicCarraway
Peregrine wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ClassicCarraway wrote:Preferred Enemy by itself does not grant a reroll, its PE plus a To Hit roll of 1 that grants the reroll, No To Hit roll of 1 means no reroll granted.
But that's not how it works. The rule doesn't say something like "if you roll a 1 to hit your weapon gains the 'twin linked' rule for the rest of the phase", it just gives you a re-roll to hit which can be used on certain dice. And as long as you have that re-roll you have enough to satisfy the "if you have a re-roll to hit" requirement on gaining a re-roll on the scatter dice.
That's exactly how it works. The Preferred Enemy rule is pretty straight forward. Against the listed enemy type, you can reroll failed To Hit and To Wound rolls of 1, that's it, nothing more to it. No failed To Hit roll of 1 equals no reroll because you failed to meet the requirement for the reroll to be granted in the first place.
By your logic, just having the PE rule allows a scatter reroll against any target, not just the "Preferred" target, because you are ignoring all of the requirements for the special rule to take effect. That's not how the rule is written and I don't believe that is how it was intended.
Additionally, check the rule for rerolling blasts. The model has to have the ability to reroll before it can reroll the scatter dice. A model with Preferred Enemy does not gain the ability to reroll until it meets the two criteria, target is the Preferred Enemy and the To Hit was failed with a roll of 1.
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Post by: Peregrine
ClassicCarraway wrote:No failed To Hit roll of 1 equals no reroll because you failed to meet the requirement for the reroll to be granted in the first place.
See above for why this is wrong. By this reasoning even twin-linked weapons wouldn't grant a re-roll on the scatter dice because you have to miss a to-hit roll before you gain the re-roll from having a twin-linked weapon. Since a blast weapon never generates a missed to-hit roll you would never gain the re-roll, and therefore never gain the scatter re-roll that depends on it. Automatically Appended Next Post: ClassicCarraway wrote:By your logic, just having the PE rule allows a scatter reroll against any target, not just the "Preferred" target, because you are ignoring all of the requirements for the special rule to take effect.
No. That's not it at all. The structure of the rules:
IF (target = preferred enemy) THEN gain ("may re-roll 1s").
IF (unit has re-roll to hit) THEN gain ("may re-roll scatter dice").
If you aren't shooting at your preferred enemy then you fail the first condition and never gain a re-roll at all.
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Post by: Lord Krungharr
My take is this, the dice rolled for hitting on a blast template is the scatter dice itself. There are arrows and 2 Hit symbols. There are no 1s on that dice, therefore Preferred Enemy does not work for that rerolling in that case. The numbered diced are a distance, not the to Hit roll. The scatter die is the actual thing determining the Hit or not.
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Post by: Peregrine
Lord Krungharr wrote:My take is this, the dice rolled for hitting on a blast template is the scatter dice itself. There are arrows and 2 Hit symbols. There are no 1s on that dice, therefore Preferred Enemy does not work for that rerolling in that case. The numbered diced are a distance, not the to Hit roll. The scatter die is the actual thing determining the Hit or not.
Again, the point is not that the scatter distance is a to-hit roll and you're re-rolling a 1 to hit. Look at the rules for blast weapons, there's a rule that if you have a re-roll to hit you ALSO get the ability to re-roll the scatter dice. Since you would have a re-roll to hit on a non-blast weapon with preferred enemy you get to re-roll the scatter dice on blast weapons.
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Post by: Chrysis
Peregrine wrote: ClassicCarraway wrote:No failed To Hit roll of 1 equals no reroll because you failed to meet the requirement for the reroll to be granted in the first place.
See above for why this is wrong. By this reasoning even twin-linked weapons wouldn't grant a re-roll on the scatter dice because you have to miss a to-hit roll before you gain the re-roll from having a twin-linked weapon. Since a blast weapon never generates a missed to-hit roll you would never gain the re-roll, and therefore never gain the scatter re-roll that depends on it.
Twin-linked Blast Weapons on page 43 says you're wrong about this logic and it's application to Twin-Linked. Twin-Linked doesn't depend on "Blast Weapons and Rerolls" to work.
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Post by: Fragile
Peregrine wrote: Lord Krungharr wrote:My take is this, the dice rolled for hitting on a blast template is the scatter dice itself. There are arrows and 2 Hit symbols. There are no 1s on that dice, therefore Preferred Enemy does not work for that rerolling in that case. The numbered diced are a distance, not the to Hit roll. The scatter die is the actual thing determining the Hit or not.
Again, the point is not that the scatter distance is a to-hit roll and you're re-rolling a 1 to hit. Look at the rules for blast weapons, there's a rule that if you have a re-roll to hit you ALSO get the ability to re-roll the scatter dice. Since you would have a re-roll to hit on a non-blast weapon with preferred enemy you get to re-roll the scatter dice on blast weapons.
That works if you ignore the entire context of "rerolling 1's". You only have a reroll when you roll a 1. Blast weapons do not roll 1's.
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Post by: nosferatu1001
You only have a reroll on twin linked weapons when you roll a miss. You never roll a miss when firing a blast weapon.
Same logic.
ALL blast weapons and rerolls asks is - do you have a reroll? If so you reroll blast scatter dice
PE grants a reroll, even though it is a reroll of a specifc result and not any result. Therefore it gains a reroll of scatter
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Post by: FlingitNow
No. That's not it at all. The structure of the rules:
IF (target = preferred enemy) THEN gain ("may re-roll 1s").
IF (unit has re-roll to hit) THEN gain ("may re-roll scatter dice").
If you aren't shooting at your preferred enemy then you fail the first condition and never gain a re-roll at all
Sorry Peregrine I don't get the distinction between the 2 criteria for a reroll with PE.
The criteria are:
1) You are targetting the PE unit.
2) You roll a 1 to hit.
If as you say the blast weapon rules don't care about criteria only that there is a possibility of a reroll, then Deathwing get rerolls with their plasma cannons against Necrons (and indeed everyone else).
Explain why the two criteria are different.
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Post by: ClassicCarraway
Peregrine wrote: ClassicCarraway wrote:No failed To Hit roll of 1 equals no reroll because you failed to meet the requirement for the reroll to be granted in the first place.
See above for why this is wrong. By this reasoning even twin-linked weapons wouldn't grant a re-roll on the scatter dice because you have to miss a to-hit roll before you gain the re-roll from having a twin-linked weapon. Since a blast weapon never generates a missed to-hit roll you would never gain the re-roll, and therefore never gain the scatter re-roll that depends on it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ClassicCarraway wrote:By your logic, just having the PE rule allows a scatter reroll against any target, not just the "Preferred" target, because you are ignoring all of the requirements for the special rule to take effect.
No. That's not it at all. The structure of the rules:
IF (target = preferred enemy) THEN gain ("may re-roll 1s").
IF (unit has re-roll to hit) THEN gain ("may re-roll scatter dice").
If you aren't shooting at your preferred enemy then you fail the first condition and never gain a re-roll at all.
If you don't fail a To Hit roll with a result of 1, you don't gain the reroll either.
We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.
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Post by: Chrysis
nosferatu1001 wrote:You only have a reroll on twin linked weapons when you roll a miss. You never roll a miss when firing a blast weapon.
Same logic.
ALL blast weapons and rerolls asks is - do you have a reroll? If so you reroll blast scatter dice
PE grants a reroll, even though it is a reroll of a specifc result and not any result. Therefore it gains a reroll of scatter
It would be the same logic if Twin-Linked didn't have it's own, explicit, section on how to handle Blast Weapons. Twin-Linked is the worst possible example to use because it's the only source of rerolls that DOESN'T use the "Blast Weapons and rerolls" section.
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Post by: nosferatu1001
Again - blast weapons requires IF you have a reroll to hit, you get a reroll of scatter.
It does not require that you be able to roll to hit with the blast, as that would be impossible.
So either no weapon that has a reroll to hit can reroll scatter, or any reroll to hit allows a reroll to scatter.
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Post by: Truth118
Blast & Large Blast:
"When firing a Blast weapon, models do not roll To Hit."
Blast Weapons and Re-rolls:
"If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit... ...re-roll both the scatter dice and the 2D6."
PE:
"...re-rolls failed To Hit and To Wound rolls of 1..."
My logic:
[To Hit rolls of 1] =/= [To Hit rolls]
You cannot roll a To Hit roll of 1 with a blast as a blast does not roll To Hit.
Therefore, PE has no effect on the scattering of a blast.
Even if you did get a re-roll to scatter with PE, you would have to re-roll all of the dice, not just the scatter die.
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Post by: nosferatu1001
"reroll its rolls to hit"
is fullfilled by
"rerolls its rolls to hit of a 1"
They are still rerolls.
"You cannot roll a To Hit roll of 1 with a blast as a blast does not roll To Hit"
NOONE rolls to hit with a blast, meaning by your argument noone with the abiltiy to reroll gets to do so.
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Post by: Shandara
Well he does have a point. The ability to 're-roll To Hit rolls of 1' ( has limitation) is not the same as the ability to 're-roll To Hit' (without limitation).
The ability to re-roll scatter requires the 're-roll To Hit' (without limitation), not the other.
It's a different version of the same idea, but not the stated requirement of re-rolling scatter.
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Post by: nosferatu1001
Do you have the ability to reroll to-hit? It does not say "reroll to hit (all to hits)" - it gives no requirement more than ability to reroll to hit
You are parsing that sentence and adding a requirement to it that does not exist.
Reroll to hit (rolls of a 1) DOES EQUAL reroll to hit, but does NOT EQUAL reroll ALL to hits. You are statign the latter is required in the rules, when the language is entirely missing
Its like the difference between within and fully within. Reroll to hit and reroll ALL to hit have different meanings.
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Post by: Shandara
Re-roll To Hit
Re-roll 1s To Hit
You can't equate them. The first encompasses the second, yes, but claiming that both provide THE SAME sort of meta 're-rolls to hit' ability is a major leap in logic.
The text differs. The limitations differ. The results are not equal in all cases (one allows you to re-roll 2s to 5s if they fail to hit, the other doesn't). They are not equal.
Re-rolling scatter requires you have the ability to "Re-roll To Hit". Only one of the above abilities provides that exactly.
PE doesn't provide Re-Roll To Hit. It provides Re-Roll 1s To Hit.
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Post by: Mywik
Is the ability to reroll 1s on a hit an ability to reroll to hits? Yes, it is.
If it was not an ability to reroll to hits, why the hell are my opponents touching their hit dice regularly when they show a 1? Have to stop them from doing this. Since according to a lot of people here, it is not a reroll to hit.
The scatter reroll isnt specified. If you are able to reroll to hit rolls. you are able to reroll scatter dice.
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Post by: nosferatu1001
Shandara wrote:Re-roll To Hit
Re-roll 1s To Hit
You can't equate them. The first encompasses the second, yes, but claiming that both provide THE SAME sort of meta 're-rolls to hit' ability is a major leap in logic.
No, it isnt
You have a condition - you MUST be able to reroll your to-hit dice. If you fulfill the condition you get a benefit.
So, can you reroll your to hit dice with PE? Yes, on a roll of a 1. This fulfills the condition precisely.
Do you reroll ALL dice? No, however that is not a requirement of the rule.
Shandara wrote:The text differs. The limitations differ. The results are not equal in all cases (one allows you to re-roll 2s to 5s if they fail to hit, the other doesn't). They are not equal.
Which is where you have now made up a rule that doesnt exist
You are being asked if you can reroll your tohit. You are not being asked if you can reroll ALL your to hit, or ALL FAILED, or ALL ROLLS OF A 2, or ALL ROLLS OF A 3, ..., just whether you CAN reroll your to hit. You CAN reroll your to hit dice - yes, in limited circumstances, but the requirement makes absolutely no mention of these limitations mattering.
Shandara wrote:Re-rolling scatter requires you have the ability to "Re-roll To Hit". Only one of the above abilities provides that exactly.
Incorrect, as proven
"Reroll to hit" is fulfilled by ever being able to reroll to hit. "reroll ALL to hit" is what you are claiming is required. Do not make up rules, or insert words into a parsing when they do not belonw/
Shandara wrote:PE doesn't provide Re-Roll To Hit. It provides Re-Roll 1s To Hit.
Yes, and reroll to hit (of a 1) is a part of Reroll to hit. It is not the same as reroll to hit (all rolls) , however it IS a member of the set of instances that fulfills the criteria "can you reroll to hit?"
Your error is that you are creating an absolute when none exists. Again, your claim is the same as claiming that "within" is equal to "fully within", when those two are different.
Fully within is a member of the set of "within" results. Reroll to hit rolls (1s ) is a member of the set "reroll to hit", same as "reroll to hit (all)" is a member of the set
Reread what you are saying, and note your error in parsing the sentence the way you are
To add another example - you are asked "can you throw a ball? If so you may have a chocolate"
I can throw a ball (1 metre). Do I get a chocolate
I can throw a ball (2 metres) Do I get a chocolate?
I can throw a ball (infinite distance). Do I get a chocolate?
Your claim is that being able to throw a ball means you must be able to throw all balls all distances (all failed to hit rolls, for example) when that isnt what the rule actually requires.
If you can reroll to hit you may reroll scatter. It doesnt matter how "much" you can reroll to hit, you get a flat benefit of rerolling.
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Post by: Redemption
The new Eldar Codex has a Spiritseer which can grant Wraith units, including the Hemlock Wraithfighter, the ability to re-roll 1's to hit through his Spirit Mark special rule.
However, in the new Iyanden supplement, the following text is included to the 'strategy' section:
Just remember that, as the Hemlock gains no benefit from a Spirit Mark (it doesn't roll to hit in a conventional manner) you don't have to worry about keeping a Spiritseer near to the enemy you want it to obliterate
Seems GW at least doesn't intend to allow re-rolling 1's to affect (Large) Blast weapons.
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Post by: ClassicCarraway
Redemption wrote:The new Eldar Codex has a Spiritseer which can grant Wraith units, including the Hemlock Wraithfighter, the ability to re-roll 1's to hit through his Spirit Mark special rule.
However, in the new Iyanden supplement, the following text is included to the 'strategy' section:
Just remember that, as the Hemlock gains no benefit from a Spirit Mark (it doesn't roll to hit in a conventional manner) you don't have to worry about keeping a Spiritseer near to the enemy you want it to obliterate
Seems GW at least doesn't intend to allow re-rolling 1's to affect (Large) Blast weapons.
Nice catch. That pretty much puts this one to bed if you ask me.
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Post by: nosferatu1001
Apart from the actual rules saying otherwise, I would agree.
It shows possible intent (as in, when they wrote it they possibly thought the rule said something different), but has no bearing on the actual rules saying gain "a" form of reroll to hit, even if situational, is sufficient.
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Post by: MasterSlowPoke
I'd say it's roughly equivalent to an FAQ answer, albeit harder to get hold of.
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Post by: nosferatu1001
Not at all, given it is part of the non rules part of the book. I would not trust those parts for rules answers, given the examples of illegal army lists, options etc that have been in prior books.
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Post by: Chris Lysander
ha ha ha ha ha Nosferatu wrong again
I know writing whole rules sections out is frowned upon. BUT IT IS VERY CLEAR!!!
Page 33: Blast and Large Blast: Paragraph 2 of the text.
When firing a blast weapon, models DO NOT ROLL TO HIT. Instead just pick one enemy model visible to the firerand place the relevant blast marker with its hole entirely over the base of the target model... blah blah blah
DO NOT ROLL TO HIT!
now what was the argument, oh yeah can you can you use the PE to reroll the scatter.
wait wait you need to roll a 1 to hit, wait wait wait oh yeah your not rolling to hit. so wheres your roll to hit coming from to get your re roll??? NO WHERE!!!
46128
Post by: Happyjew
Chris Lysander wrote:ha ha ha ha ha Nosferatu wrong again
I know writing whole rules sections out is frowned upon. BUT IT IS VERY CLEAR!!!
Page 33: Blast and Large Blast: Paragraph 2 of the text.
When firing a blast weapon, models DO NOT ROLL TO HIT. Instead just pick one enemy model visible to the firerand place the relevant blast marker with its hole entirely over the base of the target model... blah blah blah
DO NOT ROLL TO HIT!
now what was the argument, oh yeah can you can you use the PE to reroll the scatter.
wait wait you need to roll a 1 to hit, wait wait wait oh yeah your not rolling to hit. so wheres your roll to hit coming from to get your re roll??? NO WHERE!!!
Oh but look - there is a section about Blast Weapons and Re-rolls: If a model has the ability to re-roll To Hits... Does the model have the ability to re-roll To Hit rolls? Yes.
61775
Post by: ClassicCarraway
Happyjew wrote:Chris Lysander wrote:ha ha ha ha ha Nosferatu wrong again
I know writing whole rules sections out is frowned upon. BUT IT IS VERY CLEAR!!!
Page 33: Blast and Large Blast: Paragraph 2 of the text.
When firing a blast weapon, models DO NOT ROLL TO HIT. Instead just pick one enemy model visible to the firerand place the relevant blast marker with its hole entirely over the base of the target model... blah blah blah
DO NOT ROLL TO HIT!
now what was the argument, oh yeah can you can you use the PE to reroll the scatter.
wait wait you need to roll a 1 to hit, wait wait wait oh yeah your not rolling to hit. so wheres your roll to hit coming from to get your re roll??? NO WHERE!!!
Oh but look - there is a section about Blast Weapons and Re-rolls: If a model has the ability to re-roll To Hits... Does the model have the ability to re-roll To Hit rolls? Yes.
Its all how you want to interpret "have the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit" and Preferred Enemy.
To me (and others), PE does not grant a blanket ability to re-roll, as you don't get the ability to re-roll until you meet the requirement of rolling a failed To Hit roll of 1. Since blast weapons don't roll to hit, its impossible to gain the ability to re-roll. Nos, Peregrine, and others see PE as a blanket ability to re-roll, because you can re-roll failed To Hit rolls in specific circumstances.
Now we have learned that GW apparently doesn't see it as a blanket reroll as they made it a point to mention an identical circumstance in the strategy section of the Iyanden codex, stating you do not get to reroll the blast since there is no failed To Hit roll of 1. Now one could try to argue that since its not in an FAQ, its not official, but that's just being contrary for being contrary's sake.
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Post by: Chris Lysander
to anyone with half a brain cell its clear. you dont roll to hit you dont get to re roll. you HAVE to meet the requirements in the first place to get the ability to reroll.
read the woirding for gods sake, "reroll to hit of 1". you have to meet that criteria and you do not roll to hit therefore you cannot roll to hit of 1 and that model can not directly get the ability to reroll as the criteria states specifically what you need to do
49616
Post by: grendel083
Can you make your arguments without the insults and abusive manner please? It's not helping your argument.
And you're only partially correct.
Personally I don't think they should get a re-roll, but would like to point out that the "To Hit" roll is replaced in the Blast rules.
So you do roll "To Hit"
But you can't roll a one.
74677
Post by: Chris Lysander
clearly states in the BRB models firing blast weapons do not roll to hit how much clearer do you want it to be!!! Automatically Appended Next Post: and i get fed up of seeing people trying to abuse words by ignoring other rules like in this case to get the result they want, and how many people have now proven in this topic i think im one of 5, of which i have quoted directly in relation from the rule book whether or not a blast template rolls to hit which is later the requirement for rerol to hit of 1's for PE as one example
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Post by: nosferatu1001
Reported for failing to present a relevant argument, and being insulting while doing so.
Have you read the actual rules stating what happens when a model has an ability to reroll to hit, and theyre using a blast weapon? It would be handy if you could do so, thanks
74677
Post by: Chris Lysander
nosferatu1001 wrote:Reported for failing to present a relevant argument, and being insulting while doing so.
Have you read the actual rules stating what happens when a model has an ability to reroll to hit, and theyre using a blast weapon? It would be handy if you could do so, thanks
lol cant win your argument with rules quotes so you resolve tothe "im telling on you technique"... really come on how old are you... go back to a few comments back where quoted brb page 33: blast and large blast, paragraph 2, which states you don't roll to hit.
then you go to prefered enemy which states if you roll a 1 to hit you can re roll
so using simple programming logic:
if the roll to hit =1 then re roll to hit; if the roll to hit doesn't = 1 then don't re roll to hit
seriously you only get a re roll if you meet the requirement, you don't roll to hit therefore you you cannot ever meet the requirement
its whats commonly referred to if/then not do what ever you want to do
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Post by: rigeld2
So Preferred Enemy doesn't grant a roll to hit?
74677
Post by: Chris Lysander
regardless of what 1 or 2 people want to say no. if you can't roll a one to hit you can't get the PE re roll ability. it is nice and simple logic when you apply logic to it.
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Post by: rigeld2
It's really a yes or no question - does PE grant a re-roll to hit?
You're saying no. The rules say yes.
99
Post by: insaniak
Chris Lysander wrote:
lol cant win your argument with rules quotes so you resolve tothe "im telling on you technique'
As a general rule, Dakka's Mod Team vastly prefers the 'I'm telling on you' technique to the 'Insult everyone who disagrees with me' technique. Please refer to Dakka's rules. Specifically, the first one.
You might also want to reconsider casting doubt on the age of those arguing against you while at the same time resorting to insults over a disagreement about the rules for a game. If you can't keep a level head while discussing this sort of thing, it might me time to take a break from the computer.
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Post by: Chris Lysander
rigeld2 wrote:It's really a yes or no question - does PE grant a re-roll to hit? You're saying no. The rules say yes. i say no the rules say no look at PE in the rule book which specifically stipulates you re roll rolls to hit of 1 (not got BRB to hand so cant say exact page) nice and clear on what you can re roll, not a 2 3 4 5 or scatter dice but 1's then you look at page 33 blast and large blast paragraph 2 which clearly stipulates you don't role to hit so when we ask does PE have any effect on barrage weapons the answer is nice and clear NO
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Post by: rigeld2
Funny...
look at PE in the rule book which specifically stipulates you re roll rolls to hit of 1
You say no, but then say that it does... I don't understand.
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Post by: Happyjew
Chris Lysander wrote:rigeld2 wrote:It's really a yes or no question - does PE grant a re-roll to hit?
You're saying no. The rules say yes.
i say no
the rules say no
look at PE in the rule book which specifically stipulates you re roll rolls to hit of 1 (not got BRB to hand so cant say exact page) nice and clear on what you can re roll, not a 2 3 4 5 or scatter dice but 1's
then you look at page 33 blast and large blast paragraph 2 which clearly stipulates you don't role to hit
so when we ask does PE have any effect on barrage weapons the answer is nice and clear NO
So a re-roll To Hit is not a re-roll To Hit?
35241
Post by: HawaiiMatt
If you don't take the trigger into account for re-rolls of scatter dice, then Orks can re-roll the scatter die for Lobbas without actually using the ammo runt.
The trigger for the re-roll is not met, but the possibility of the re-roll gives you a 2nd chance at scatter?
-Matt
61964
Post by: Fragile
rigeld2 wrote:It's really a yes or no question - does PE grant a re-roll to hit?
You're saying no. The rules say yes.
PE does not grant a reroll unless conditions are met and you cannot meet those conditions with scatter dice.
47462
Post by: rigeld2
HawaiiMatt wrote:If you don't take the trigger into account for re-rolls of scatter dice, then Orks can re-roll the scatter die for Lobbas without actually using the ammo runt.
Depending on the wording of Ammo Runt... Automatically Appended Next Post: Fragile wrote:rigeld2 wrote:It's really a yes or no question - does PE grant a re-roll to hit?
You're saying no. The rules say yes.
PE does not grant a reroll unless conditions are met and you cannot meet those conditions with scatter dice.
It's a yes or no question.
61964
Post by: Fragile
Then no. There are no 1's on the board to trigger PE.
47462
Post by: rigeld2
That's not the question at hand.
The question is whether or not PE grants a re-roll. If you answer no, I'd like you to quote PE.
61964
Post by: Fragile
That is the question at hand. Your trying to take part of a rule and apply it as a whole. That like saying Stealth (ruins) is the same thing as Stealth. The rolling of the 1 is what grants the reroll. You cannot roll a 1 on scatter die. You have no way to "gain" the reroll permitted by PE, therefore the result stands.
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Post by: Chris Lysander
rigeld2 wrote:
That's not the question at hand.
The question is whether or not PE grants a re-roll. If you answer no, I'd like you to quote PE.
glad i now have my rule book to hand but perhaps try getting your own rule book out and looking it up in future
taking the specific relevant part of this rule only:
A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule r-rolls failed To Hit and To wound rolls of 1 if attacking its preferred enemy.
So Yes it does get a reroll IF you meet set criteria, since you cannot roll a To Hit dice for the template you cannot get a To Hit roll of 1 and therefore don't get it
going back to my earlier point of If/Then statements
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Post by: Abandon
Chris Lysander wrote:
regardless of what 1 or 2 people want to say no. if you can't roll a one to hit you can't get the PE re roll ability. it is nice and simple logic when you apply logic to it.
Simple logic also dictates that if you don't roll to hit you cannot fail a roll to hit. I know of no ability that lets you re-roll all to-hit rolls, only failures in some fashion or another. By applying your own "simple logic" nothing gives you a re-roll until you fail a to-hit roll so nothing will get a scatter re-roll per the blast rules. Perfectly logical and I applaud you for your ability to reason things out but this also makes the rule non-functional. The obvious intent is that the rule will function in some way so the next logical step would be to redefine the parameters, entities and values applicable to the matter at hand while remaining within the limits of possible meanings the rule may have been attempting to convey until a interpretation can be found that is both logical and functional.
What you have been stating indicates you believe the rule requires a solid concrete ability to re-roll (right now) needs to be in place to get the scatter re-roll but no unit has that. All re-rolls are limited in some way even if only to re-rolling failures.
A more liberal view on the wording 'ability to re-roll' would work out logically and functionally. PE and indeed every re-roll causing ability has the potential to allow a re-roll therefore if all you are looking for is the ability to re-roll without actually making a to-hit roll they all have it (see Schrodinger's Cat).
Also of note, I see no relevance regarding the rules for twin-linked. That is only one SR that allows re-rolls and that it has it's own rules for blasts has nothing to do with PE or any of the others.
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Post by: rigeld2
Fragile wrote:That is the question at hand. Your trying to take part of a rule and apply it as a whole. That like saying Stealth (ruins) is the same thing as Stealth. The rolling of the 1 is what grants the reroll. You cannot roll a 1 on scatter die. You have no way to "gain" the reroll permitted by PE, therefore the result stands.
Therefore no re-roll ability applies as you must fail a to-hit roll to be able to re-roll. Automatically Appended Next Post: Chris Lysander wrote:rigeld2 wrote:
That's not the question at hand.
The question is whether or not PE grants a re-roll. If you answer no, I'd like you to quote PE.
glad i now have my rule book to hand but perhaps try getting your own rule book out and looking it up in future
I have. Perhaps you could try and be less insulting - particularly after being warned by a mod?
taking the specific relevant part of this rule only:
A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule r-rolls failed To Hit and To wound rolls of 1 if attacking its preferred enemy.
So Yes it does get a reroll IF you meet set criteria, since you cannot roll a To Hit dice for the template you cannot get a To Hit roll of 1 and therefore don't get it
Templates != blast markers. Please use correct terms when discussing rules.
Tell me - if Twin Linked didn't have a specific rule, would you allow it to re-roll the scatter dice?
going back to my earlier point of If/Then statements
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Post by: nosferatu1001
So if you are granted a reroll of failed to hit rolls, that wouldnt let you reroll scatter?
INteresting "logic", as it renders the entire section on blasts and rerolls moot.
I'll follow the ruels that say IF You have a reroll to hit (you do, just only on certain rolls - which the rule doesnt actually state matters) then you get to reroll scatter
Rerolling 1s to hit can be thought of as similar to a BS10 model. WOuld you allow a BS10 model reroll on scatter? What about Bjorn?
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Post by: Quark
nosferatu1001 wrote:Rerolling 1s to hit can be thought of as similar to a BS10 model. WOuld you allow a BS10 model reroll on scatter? What about Bjorn?
It's not the same, from a logic standpoint. BS10 (and BS6) allows you to reroll all misses, and tells you what the requirement to hit is the second time. Reroll 1s is just that - you can only reroll to hit of 1, not any other result. Reroll 1s has extra criteria that no other type of reroll has.
50012
Post by: Crimson
Why are you still arguing? We already know how GW meant it to be played.
59016
Post by: Jacob29
FlingitNow wrote:
If as you say the blast weapon rules don't care about criteria only that there is a possibility of a reroll, then Deathwing get rerolls with their plasma cannons against Necrons (and indeed everyone else).
This really needs more spotlight.
If you say that PE lets you re-roll scatters due to the "potential for re-rolling"
then what Flingit wrote seem's true.
Deathwing has the POSSIBILITY to reroll, the limitation being against necrons, but according to some of the logic in here they can reroll their blast's against anyone.
Crimson wrote:Why are you still arguing? We already know how GW meant it to be played.
Some people think it was just a passing comment. I do not.
47462
Post by: rigeld2
Quark wrote:nosferatu1001 wrote:Rerolling 1s to hit can be thought of as similar to a BS10 model. WOuld you allow a BS10 model reroll on scatter? What about Bjorn?
It's not the same, from a logic standpoint. BS10 (and BS6) allows you to reroll all misses, and tells you what the requirement to hit is the second time. Reroll 1s is just that - you can only reroll to hit of 1, not any other result. Reroll 1s has extra criteria that no other type of reroll has.
You are granted a re-roll if you miss.
You are granted a re-roll if you roll a 1 to-hit.
Why is one conditional "allowed" but the other not?
59016
Post by: Jacob29
rigeld2 wrote:Quark wrote:nosferatu1001 wrote:Rerolling 1s to hit can be thought of as similar to a BS10 model. WOuld you allow a BS10 model reroll on scatter? What about Bjorn?
It's not the same, from a logic standpoint. BS10 (and BS6) allows you to reroll all misses, and tells you what the requirement to hit is the second time. Reroll 1s is just that - you can only reroll to hit of 1, not any other result. Reroll 1s has extra criteria that no other type of reroll has.
You are granted a re-roll if you miss.
You are granted a re-roll if you roll a 1 to-hit.
Why is one conditional "allowed" but the other not?
because being able to re-roll Blast's with PE creates absurdities and GW have expressly said that rerolling Blasts with limited re-rolls (such as Spiritmark) is not allowed.
22508
Post by: FlingitNow
rigeld2 wrote:Quark wrote:nosferatu1001 wrote:Rerolling 1s to hit can be thought of as similar to a BS10 model. WOuld you allow a BS10 model reroll on scatter? What about Bjorn?
It's not the same, from a logic standpoint. BS10 (and BS6) allows you to reroll all misses, and tells you what the requirement to hit is the second time. Reroll 1s is just that - you can only reroll to hit of 1, not any other result. Reroll 1s has extra criteria that no other type of reroll has.
You are granted a re-roll if you miss.
You are granted a re-roll if you roll a 1 to-hit.
Why is one conditional "allowed" but the other not?
You are granted a reroll if you target the PE unit.
Why is one conditional "allowed" but the other not?
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Post by: rigeld2
Jacob29 wrote:because being able to re-roll Blast's with PE creates absurdities
Like... And absurdities change how the rules are written? and GW have expressly said that rerolling Blasts with limited re-rolls (such as Spiritmark) is not allowed.
No, they've said (in a supplement I don't have access to so I can't verify wording) that the Spiritmark doesn't allow re-rolling blasts.
59016
Post by: Jacob29
rigeld2 wrote:Jacob29 wrote:because being able to re-roll Blast's with PE creates absurdities
Like...
And absurdities change how the rules are written?
and GW have expressly said that rerolling Blasts with limited re-rolls (such as Spiritmark) is not allowed.
No, they've said (in a supplement I don't have access to so I can't verify wording) that the Spiritmark doesn't allow re-rolling blasts.
Like Preferred Enemy (Necrons) giving re-rollable Scatter dice even when NOT against Necrons.
The primary argument is that PE allows a re-roll, and all Blast's need to be re-rolled is the possibility.
Yes and Spiritmark allows the re-roll of 1's on a marked target. Near identical to PE.
47462
Post by: rigeld2
Jacob29 wrote:Like Preferred Enemy (Necrons) giving re-rollable Scatter dice even when NOT against Necrons.
There's a difference of course, but you can ignore it if you want.
Yes and Spiritmark allows the re-roll of 1's on a marked target. Near identical to PE.
Near identical, and yet different. It's almost like things that aren't the same lead to different results.
11268
Post by: nosferatu1001
Quark wrote:nosferatu1001 wrote:Rerolling 1s to hit can be thought of as similar to a BS10 model. WOuld you allow a BS10 model reroll on scatter? What about Bjorn?
It's not the same, from a logic standpoint. BS10 (and BS6) allows you to reroll all misses, and tells you what the requirement to hit is the second time. Reroll 1s is just that - you can only reroll to hit of 1, not any other result. Reroll 1s has extra criteria that no other type of reroll has.
Yes, and BS10 rerolls all misses - ALL 1s
PE rerolls ALL 1s
Both have conditions. The rule in question places no conditions on "how much" of a reroll you need to have in order for you to gain rerolls
If you think otherwise, prove that the rule in question actually requires you to be able to reroll "All" misses. It never states that
35241
Post by: HawaiiMatt
rigeld2 wrote:HawaiiMatt wrote:If you don't take the trigger into account for re-rolls of scatter dice, then Orks can re-roll the scatter die for Lobbas without actually using the ammo runt.
Depending on the wording of Ammo Runt...
Ammo runt says you have to use and remove the ammo runt to get the re-roll.
PE says you have to roll a 1 to get the re-roll.
When you fire a barrage with PE, you have not rolled a 1, but you are re-rolling.
So logic followed if PE doesn't have to meet its requirement (roll a 1), ammo runt does not need to meet its requirement (remove runt).
If a Riptide gets Marker lights to boost it to BS6 (re-rolling 1's to hit) and fires the Nova Charged Ion Cannon, you are all saying it re-rolls scatter dice?
Tau commander with 1 marker light re-rolls Air Bursting Frag and Overcharged Cyclic Ion Blaster?
-Matt
47462
Post by: rigeld2
HawaiiMatt wrote:rigeld2 wrote:HawaiiMatt wrote:If you don't take the trigger into account for re-rolls of scatter dice, then Orks can re-roll the scatter die for Lobbas without actually using the ammo runt.
Depending on the wording of Ammo Runt...
Ammo runt says you have to use and remove the ammo runt to get the re-roll.
PE says you have to roll a 1 to get the re-roll.
When you fire a barrage with PE, you have not rolled a 1, but you are re-rolling.
So logic followed if PE doesn't have to meet its requirement (roll a 1), ammo runt does not need to meet its requirement (remove runt).
Not quite the same thing.
If a Riptide gets Marker lights to boost it to BS6 (re-rolling 1's to hit) and fires the Nova Charged Ion Cannon, you are all saying it re-rolls scatter dice?
Yes, absolutely.
Tau commander with 1 marker light re-rolls Air Bursting Frag and Overcharged Cyclic Ion Blaster?
Sure, if you're being accurate about what those do (not completely up on the Tau codex)
22508
Post by: FlingitNow
I did not realise that Farseers where that good. As long as I take guide as a power all blast weapons in my army get reroll on a scatter as those units could get a reroll to hit if I cast guide on them and we already know the if statement is irrelevant...
54206
Post by: Quark
nosferatu1001 wrote:Quark wrote:nosferatu1001 wrote:Rerolling 1s to hit can be thought of as similar to a BS10 model. WOuld you allow a BS10 model reroll on scatter? What about Bjorn?
It's not the same, from a logic standpoint. BS10 (and BS6) allows you to reroll all misses, and tells you what the requirement to hit is the second time. Reroll 1s is just that - you can only reroll to hit of 1, not any other result. Reroll 1s has extra criteria that no other type of reroll has.
Yes, and BS10 rerolls all misses - ALL 1s
PE rerolls ALL 1s
Both have conditions. The rule in question places no conditions on "how much" of a reroll you need to have in order for you to gain rerolls
If you think otherwise, prove that the rule in question actually requires you to be able to reroll "All" misses. It never states that
BS10 rerolls all misses - that just happens to be only 1s. That is not conditional.
PE rerolls misses of 1 only. That is conditional. You don't have the "ability to re-roll to hit", you have the "ability to re-roll to hit of 1".
I'm not sure why we're still arguing when Iyanden book has showed intent. It says Spirit Mark doesn't work for Hemlock Wraithfighter. Spirit Mark exact wording:
All Wraithguards, Wraithblades, Wraithlords, Wraithknights and Hemlock Wraithfighters can re-roll To Hit rolls of 1 against spirit-marked units
That is no different than what Preferred Enemy gives for To Hit.
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Post by: nosferatu1001
Quark - and, again you have created a requirement that simply does not exist in the actual, written rules
There is NO REQUIREMENT for you to be able to reroll ALL dice in order to gain a reroll. That is totally and utterly made up by you as a requirement.
So, again: you are asked if you are able to reroll to hit. I answer YES - I can reroll to hits of a 1. You never asked can I reroll ALL rolls to hit, or all 1,2 and 3, or anything like that - you just asked "CAN I" reroll to hit. I can.
Therefore I get a reroll
Please find a rule that shows that this is not true. Page and para. You have yet to do so, as you have failed to parse the question at.
47462
Post by: rigeld2
Quark wrote:BS10 rerolls all misses - that just happens to be only 1s. That is not conditional.
And yet would still require a to-hit roll. It's absolutely conditional.
PE rerolls misses of 1 only. That is conditional. You don't have the "ability to re-roll to hit", you have the "ability to re-roll to hit of 1".
I'm sorry you can't tell why that underlined bit is irrelevant, but it is.
I'm not sure why we're still arguing when Iyanden book has showed intent. It says Spirit Mark doesn't work for Hemlock Wraithfighter. Spirit Mark exact wording:
All Wraithguards, Wraithblades, Wraithlords, Wraithknights and Hemlock Wraithfighters can re-roll To Hit rolls of 1 against spirit-marked units
That is no different than what Preferred Enemy gives for To Hit.
Because that's for one specific rule and not across all rules.
63094
Post by: Gravmyr
Just a couple of clarifying questions for those that say PE allows rerolls for barrage.
With PE, can you get a reroll if you roll a to hit of anything but a 1?
If not, how do you have the ability to reroll required by barrage?
If the 1 is not required then is the prefered enemy of the proper type required to give a reroll or does simply having PE give you a reroll and therefor work on any unit?
47462
Post by: rigeld2
Gravmyr wrote:With PE, can you get a reroll if you roll a to hit of anything but a 1?
With BS6 can you get a re-roll if you roll a to-hit of anything but a miss?
Why is a miss different from a 1? Where is the double standard coming from - both situations are contingent on something (one a miss, one rolling a 1).
61775
Post by: ClassicCarraway
rigeld2 wrote:Gravmyr wrote:With PE, can you get a reroll if you roll a to hit of anything but a 1?
With BS6 can you get a re-roll if you roll a to-hit of anything but a miss?
Why is a miss different from a 1? Where is the double standard coming from - both situations are contingent on something (one a miss, one rolling a 1).
Is that considered a true re-roll or an "extra" roll? Because a true re-roll should allow you to use your same BS, while the BS6+ roll forces you to roll to target a different(higher) value then the original To Hit roll. I don't have my BRB with me at the moment so I'm not sure how the rules actually state that particular piece.
47462
Post by: rigeld2
Hell, it's worded like PE.
If a model has BS6 or higher, it gains a re-roll whenever it rolls a 1 To Hit with ranged attacks.
31450
Post by: DeathReaper
rigeld2 wrote:Hell, it's worded like PE.
If a model has BS6 or higher, it gains a re-roll whenever it rolls a 1 To Hit with ranged attacks.
To be fair, that is probably because a roll of a 2+ will hit with a BS6 or higher.
I think there is a little ambiguity and I can see where both sides are coming from. But nevermind me, carry on boys.
59016
Post by: Jacob29
rigeld2 wrote:Jacob29 wrote:Like Preferred Enemy (Necrons) giving re-rollable Scatter dice even when NOT against Necrons.
There's a difference of course, but you can ignore it if you want.
What is the difference?
It follows the same logic that has already been introduced.
Yes and Spiritmark allows the re-roll of 1's on a marked target. Near identical to PE.
Near identical, and yet different. It's almost like things that aren't the same lead to different results.
The fact is that GW clearly don't intend for PE to let you reroll blasts. They don't say "Spiritmark has no effect on Hemlocks" they give a helpful tip that "don't worry it won't do anything".
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Post by: rigeld2
Jacob29 wrote:The fact is that GW clearly don't intend for PE to let you reroll blasts. They don't say "Spiritmark has no effect on Hemlocks" they give a helpful tip that "don't worry it won't do anything".
They clearly intend for Spiritmark not to re-roll blasts.
Their intent with regard to PE is unclear, you assumption notwithstanding.
And their intent is only relevant insofar as its FAQed.
63094
Post by: Gravmyr
I'm not arguing either way as it doesn't affect me. I was simply extending the logic you are putting forth. Can you answer my other two questions so I can see where you are coming from more clearly? As well as how far this extends. Can I reroll scatter for a blast if I have a Chronometron in the unit?
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Post by: ClassicCarraway
rigeld2 wrote:Hell, it's worded like PE.
If a model has BS6 or higher, it gains a re-roll whenever it rolls a 1 To Hit with ranged attacks.
So do you feel models with a BS6+ automatically get to re-roll blast scatter?
47462
Post by: rigeld2
Yes.
52446
Post by: Abandon
Quark wrote:
BS10 rerolls all misses - that just happens to be only 1s. That is not conditional.
Actually that is conditional. The two conditions being:
1. You must roll to hit.
2. You must miss.
Which is exactly the same as any ability that lets you re-roll all misses.
And the conditions for PE:
1. You must roll two hit.
2. You must miss.
3. You must roll a 1
So you're saying three conditions is two many to qualify for the scatter re-roll but two conditions is not? That seems quite arbitrary.
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Here's the reasoning. Since the ability to re-roll is never determined in any case( BS 10, PE, etc.) because the to-hit roll is never made all possible outcomes of the to-hit roll remain true per(purred) Schrodinger's Cat. This means you both do get to re-roll the to-hit roll and you do not get to re-roll the to-hit roll.... that your not making. Both outcomes being true and false at the same time because it is undetermined... as in, you do not make the roll just like you can't open the box. As the ability to re-roll is true you get to re-roll your scatter dice.
^^^this is upon the premise that it actually means 'if the model has the ability to re-roll a to-hit roll in this shooting attack'. the BRB actually does not say this.
Pure RAW though only says that the model must have the ability to re-roll it's to hit rolls. It does not say in this attack nor does it even say to-hit rolls for shooting attacks... Taken without assumption this includes CC attacks as well. I mean does a model that re-rolls failed to-hit rolls in CC re-roll to-hit rolls? Yes it does. It's ridiculous I know that the scything talons on a Tyranid Warrior would allow it to re-roll scatter for the barbed strangler it's carrying and I would never attempt this in a game but if you want straight RAW all you have to do is check the qualifiers for the rule of which they only list two...
"If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast weapon, the player must reroll both the scatter dice and the 2D6"
1. It must have the ability to re-roll rolls to-hit(it's not specific so any rolls To Hit count)
2. You must choose to re-roll
That's it... Pure RAW answer, if the model can reroll any To Hit rolls it can reroll scatter. As for RAI and HYWPI.... well...
22508
Post by: FlingitNow
Abandon following that logic any army containing a psyker that has prescience could reroll will ALL blast weapons because they COULD get a reroll. Indeed you could go further to any unit in any codex that contains a psyker that can roll divination or has a battle brother that can roll divination can re roll all blast weapons all the time (if I had selected this psyker etc and as we have stated if statements are irrelevant).
52446
Post by: Abandon
FlingitNow wrote:Abandon following that logic any army containing a psyker that has prescience could reroll will ALL blast weapons because they COULD get a reroll. Indeed you could go further to any unit in any codex that contains a psyker that can roll divination or has a battle brother that can roll divination can re roll all blast weapons all the time (if I had selected this psyker etc and as we have stated if statements are irrelevant).
Incorrect, the model must have the ability...
46128
Post by: Happyjew
Abandon wrote:Quark wrote:
BS10 rerolls all misses - that just happens to be only 1s. That is not conditional.
Actually that is conditional. The two conditions being:
1. You must roll to hit.
2. You must miss.
3. You must roll a 1.
Abandon, I fixed that for you after re-reading BS 6+ (which says you only get the re-roll if you roll a 1 To Hit).
31450
Post by: DeathReaper
You only get the re-roll if you roll a 1 To Hit with BS 6+ because a 2-6 already hits and there is no need to re-roll.
52446
Post by: Abandon
Happyjew wrote: Abandon wrote:Quark wrote:
BS10 rerolls all misses - that just happens to be only 1s. That is not conditional.
Actually that is conditional. The two conditions being:
1. You must roll to hit.
2. You must miss.
3. You must roll a 1.
Abandon, I fixed that for you after re-reading BS 6+ (which says you only get the re-roll if you roll a 1 To Hit).
I'm aware, was using his words for it to better make the point that it does not matter. All rerolls come with conditions.
47462
Post by: rigeld2
DeathReaper wrote:You only get the re-roll if you roll a 1 To Hit with BS 6+ because a 2-6 already hits and there is no need to re-roll.
That's your assumption - and logically it fits. They did not say, "If you miss you can re-roll" or anything to that effect however.
Use actual rules for your argument please, not assumptions.
31450
Post by: DeathReaper
rigeld2 wrote: DeathReaper wrote:You only get the re-roll if you roll a 1 To Hit with BS 6+ because a 2-6 already hits and there is no need to re-roll.
That's your assumption - and logically it fits. They did not say, "If you miss you can re-roll" or anything to that effect however.
Use actual rules for your argument please, not assumptions.
The only reason to gain a re-roll is because you missed. This is apparent in the 40K BRB such as the Divination power Prescience, Twin Linked etc.
All re-rolls are because you missed and gain a re-roll to try and hit.
I was just clarifying that the re-roll to hit on a 1 for BS6+ is because 2-6 hits and there is no reason to re-roll.
22508
Post by: FlingitNow
Abandon wrote: FlingitNow wrote:Abandon following that logic any army containing a psyker that has prescience could reroll will ALL blast weapons because they COULD get a reroll. Indeed you could go further to any unit in any codex that contains a psyker that can roll divination or has a battle brother that can roll divination can re roll all blast weapons all the time (if I had selected this psyker etc and as we have stated if statements are irrelevant).
Incorrect, the model must have the ability...
And the model does if the psyker casts prescience on his unit. So our conditions are:
1) you must cast prescience on that unit
2) you must roll to hit
3) you must miss
It is just a condition of getting the reroll for that model and as we know all conditions are irrelevant. Likewise a model with PE (chaos space marines) gets his reroll on the blast no matter his opponent. Or indeed any codex that has access to a psyker with divination:
1. You must select a psyker in your army
2. You must get the prescience psychic power
3. You must cast it on the unit firing
4. You must roll to hit
5. You must miss
Again if we're ignoring ALL conditions the above is true.
51854
Post by: Mywik
Chris Lysander wrote:
regardless of what 1 or 2 people want to say no. if you can't roll a one to hit you can't get the PE re roll ability. it is nice and simple logic when you apply logic to it.
Is the ability to reroll 1s on a hit an ability to reroll hit rolls?
Please only answer that question without insults or "holier than thou" attitude.
11268
Post by: nosferatu1001
Does the model have a reroll to hit? Then it gets a reroll on scatter.
Can someone on the "no" side please find where there is a requirement in the rules on "rerolls and blasts" for you to be able to reroll "all failed", or some other such verbiage, before you can claim a reroll on scatter?
Page and para would be hlpeful. Or, the "no" side could concede their lack of a rules based argument.
72945
Post by: Baktru
Hmmm now I think I just want to revive StrawMarine Bob for a moment.
Say that due to some enemy action (a malediction that makes it so, some special terrain rule, or anything), StrawMarine Bob and his unit have to reroll To Hit rolls of 6.
StrawMarine Bob fires his ML as a frag missile at a unit of gaunts and it scatters wildly. Can he re-roll the scatter dice?
63094
Post by: Gravmyr
The gist is then that any reroll to hit at all allows scatter dice rerolls. K.
11268
Post by: nosferatu1001
Gravmyr wrote:The gist is then that any reroll to hit at all allows scatter dice rerolls. K.
Yes, because that is all the rule actually requires - that you have a reroll to hit.
It doesnt say "reroll ALL hits, ALL the time, and then you get to reroll scatter"
So indeed, if you havea "bad" reroll - reroll all successful to-hit rolls, for example (to just extend the example further) then this also fulfils the requirement of "having" a reroll to-hit, and would allow you to reroll scatter.
Which is, of course, quite silly, but is literally the only RAW answer.
Because if you say otherwise, then exactly "how much" of a reroll to-hit do you need to have to qualify for a reroll on scatter? is all misses sufficient? What about (on a BS2 model) all 1s and 2s? Or, in this example, Preferred Enemy?
There is no textual or contextual evidence for any specific requirement being the "standard" we should follow.
65714
Post by: Lord Krungharr
Preferred Enemy allows the unit with that rule to reroll To Hit rolls of 1.
Blasts of any sort use the Scatter dice plus 2D6s. For Blast weapons the only dice that counts for a Hit is the little target symbol. If a big arrow is rolled the shot does not hit, though the 2D6 can be ignored (in most cases) if they add up to equal to or less than the BS of the firer.
Thus Preferred Enemy will NOT work on the To Hit component of Blast Weapons, as the To Hit part is not a number, it is a function of the dice with arrows on it. But the rerolling of To Wound rolls of 1 would be permitted by Preferred Enemy.
11268
Post by: nosferatu1001
Lord Krungharr - did you read any of the preceding thread, or indeed the rules covering blasts and rerolls?
It doesnt look like you did. Please do so, and come back with an argument that takes note of the relevant rules.
22508
Post by: FlingitNow
Because if you say otherwise, then exactly "how much" of a reroll to-hit do you need to have to qualify for a reroll on scatter? is all misses sufficient? What about (on a BS2 model) all 1s and 2s? Or, in this example, Preferred Enemy?
There is no textual or contextual evidence for any specific requirement being the "standard" we should follow.
Hence any unit in an army that has access to divination gets rerolls on all blast weapons all the time.
Which is, of course, quite silly, but is literally the only RAW answer.
And hence why RaW is not helpful here when trying to understand what the actual rule is. Automatically Appended Next Post: So are we finally agreed? Either you get rerolls from PE but that means basically every army has rerolls on scatter in every game all the time. Or that as the rule states and GW have confirmed only if you have a flat reroll do you get to reroll scatter.
72945
Post by: Baktru
The "If anyone has divination" thing is just silly.
If my Bioplasma Carnifex for instance does not have anything cast upon him that allows rerolls of any kind, clearly the model does not have the ability to reroll at the time of the shot, and cannot reroll a miss with the Plasma.
However I do agree with Nos et al, if the Swarmolord gives the Carnifex Preferred Enemy, he HAS an ability to reroll. Granted, only on a 1, but he has the ability. RAW then that does mean I can reroll the scatter on his bioplasma. I think here it still makes some sense, but clearly it doesn't if for some reason he had an ability that forces to reroll all hits but hey... The rule still says so.
51854
Post by: Mywik
Or that as the rule states and GW have confirmed only if you have a flat reroll do you get to reroll scatter.
Please cite the portion of the rule that states that you only get to reroll when you have a "flat" reroll.
Also is the ability to reroll ones on a hit an ability to reroll to hit?
22508
Post by: FlingitNow
Yes an ability to reroll 1s is a conditional ability to reroll.
Does someone with PE CSMs get a reroll against Necrons?
43621
Post by: sirlynchmob
I'm liking this PE and re-roll logic.
So as PE doesn't say you "May" reroll hits, it says you reroll.
SO if you have PE and get a direct hit on the scatter die, and a 1 on a scatter distance die, then you still have to reroll, so it actually makes it harder to get a direct hit with PE.
PS: I don't suppose it matters to anyone that Blast weapons don't roll "to hit" and as PE only allows rerolls when a "to hit" roll is 1.
61964
Post by: Fragile
So if we are ignoring the fact that we are required to have a 1 in order to reroll, by that logic, you could reroll 2's, 3's... etc... because you have "the ability to reroll" without the limiter.
47462
Post by: rigeld2
Fragile wrote:So if we are ignoring the fact that we are required to have a 1 in order to reroll, by that logic, you could reroll 2's, 3's... etc... because you have "the ability to reroll" without the limiter.
No, that's not what's being said - excellent straw man thought.
What do the rules ask for? An ability to re-roll.
Does PE allow a re-roll? Yes.
43621
Post by: sirlynchmob
rigeld2 wrote:Fragile wrote:So if we are ignoring the fact that we are required to have a 1 in order to reroll, by that logic, you could reroll 2's, 3's... etc... because you have "the ability to reroll" without the limiter.
No, that's not what's being said - excellent straw man thought.
What do the rules ask for? An ability to re-roll.
Does PE allow a re-roll? Yes.
Yes and PE states you have to reroll, so with blasts you'll always disregard the first roll (hit or miss) and roll again.
22508
Post by: FlingitNow
Can Prescience give any of my units a reroll? If we are throwing all conditions out of the window...
31450
Post by: DeathReaper
The correct answer to that question is "Maybe" or "Sometimes"
11268
Post by: nosferatu1001
Fragile wrote:So if we are ignoring the fact that we are required to have a 1 in order to reroll, by that logic, you could reroll 2's, 3's... etc... because you have "the ability to reroll" without the limiter.
No, we ignore your straw man, which ignores the rules.
Can you start providing some to back up your position? It's a simple request - prove yout have an "amount" of reroll you have to have before you can reroll scatter. Anything based on actual rules would be helpful, as you have totally avoided this until now
Sir lynch - any chance you read the thread, which shows you the rulEs on blasts and rerolls, instead of making the same argument as on page one, by thosee unable to.fund the rrule on blasts and rerolls? Thanks
47462
Post by: rigeld2
Which is the same answer as any re-roll to-hit ability.
It's exactly as conditional as any other similar ability.
31450
Post by: DeathReaper
rigeld2 wrote:
Which is the same answer as any re-roll to-hit ability.
It's exactly as conditional as any other similar ability.
I was simply clarifying that it is not a "Yes" answer to that question it is a "Maybe" or "Sometimes" answer.
47462
Post by: rigeld2
As long as you agree that they are all worded as "maybe" then sure.
Which is irrelevant.
65714
Post by: Lord Krungharr
I reread the Blast rules, and I stick to my previous conclusion. PE grants a reroll on To Hits of 1. The Blasts and Rerolls just says if the model gets to reroll its To Hit rolls then it would reroll the Scatter dice and both the 2D6s. Since PE only grants a single To Hit reroll (that is only of 1) and not multiple To Hit rerolls as the Blast and Rerolls rule describes (singular vs plural), the PEd model/unit would NOT get to reroll the Scatter dice and 2D6s.
31450
Post by: DeathReaper
A better way to word it actually would be "If you Miss and the misses are the roll of a 1" Things Does twin linked allow a re-roll? would then be answered "If you miss" Though the rules are written so that you gain a re-roll for missing, no need for a re-roll if you hit. The context dictates this.
42985
Post by: liturgies of blood
Hmmm, my opinion is that PE grants a re-roll when targeting your preferred enemy.
The rules are that you need a rule that grants a re-roll. PE does so against a PE unit.
47462
Post by: rigeld2
DeathReaper wrote:A better way to word it actually would be "If you Miss and the misses are the roll of a 1"
Things Does twin linked allow a re-roll? would then be answered "If you miss"
Though the rules are written so that you gain a re-roll for missing, no need for a re-roll if you hit. The context dictates this.
You're moving away from the question that is actually asked and inserting distinctions.
Does PE grant a re-roll?
And there are absolutely reasons to re-roll hits. Precision Shots for one.
31450
Post by: DeathReaper
Except the rules for twin linked say you re-roll failed to hit rolls (AKA misses), as does Prescience. PE sometimes grants a re-roll. Twin Linked, and Prescience grant a re-roll always.
47462
Post by: rigeld2
DeathReaper wrote:Except the rules for twin linked say you re-roll failed to hit rolls (AKA misses), as does Prescience.
Which is still a "Maybe".
It does not always grant a re-roll to-hit. You have to miss first.
PE does not always grant a re-roll to-hit. You have to roll a 1 first.
Note that the actual rule doesn't care about how you get the re-roll, just that you have one. Automatically Appended Next Post:
That's incorrect, and you know it is because you said it correctly first.
You have to miss with either one to get a re-roll.
42985
Post by: liturgies of blood
No PE grant's a re-roll when you roll a 1 AND when you are fighting a preferred enemy.
That is the conditional issue here IMHO. I don't like that re-rolls of 1 give the ability to re-roll blasts scatter or plasma cannons get's hot but it does appear to be consistent RAW.
However if you're telling me that a LF with an attacked Wolf Priest that has PE monstrous creature gets to re-roll it's scatter when shooting infantry I don't see why. The rule only cares that you have one, grand but a conditional re-roll that is based on more than just missing a target and requires a certain type of target is a very different animal to a blanket ability to re-roll 1s. If a PE(MC) unit is shooting at "not MCs" how does it have a re-roll?
31450
Post by: DeathReaper
The rules are written on the basis that needing a re-roll is because you missed.
If you hit there is no reason to, nor can you re-roll.
47462
Post by: rigeld2
DeathReaper wrote:The rules are written on the basis that needing a re-roll is because you missed.
If you hit there is no reason to, nor can you re-roll.
The first half of your sentence is false, and the second is only true for now - there's no guarantee the next codex won't invalidate that statement.
So have fun with your biased assumptions, ill be over here with what the rules actually say.
61964
Post by: Fragile
nosferatu1001 wrote:Fragile wrote:So if we are ignoring the fact that we are required to have a 1 in order to reroll, by that logic, you could reroll 2's, 3's... etc... because you have "the ability to reroll" without the limiter.
No, we ignore your straw man, which ignores the rules.
Can you start providing some to back up your position? It's a simple request - prove yout have an "amount" of reroll you have to have before you can reroll scatter. Anything based on actual rules would be helpful, as you have totally avoided this until now
Sir lynch - any chance you read the thread, which shows you the rulEs on blasts and rerolls, instead of making the same argument as on page one, by thosee unable to.fund the rrule on blasts and rerolls? Thanks
You claim that PE grants a reroll regardless of having to roll a 1. You cannot apply that to blast weapons and not to any other. If you ignore the having to roll a 1 for blast, then you can ignore the 1 for any other weapon.
As far as rules, its clearly written. You have to roll a 1. Show me a 1 on a scatter die.
42985
Post by: liturgies of blood
Show me a failed "roll to hit" on a scatter dice & 2D6. Keep in mind the brb defines what a "roll to hit" quite clearly, there is a table and everything.
Anything that grants a re-roll for "rolls to hit" cannot be applied to a scatter dice if we follow that logic and ignore the rules for blasts.
15829
Post by: Redemption
What about the Objuration Mechanicum psychic power, that forces the enemy unit to re-roll To Hit rolls of 6. Would that suddenly also grant the enemy unit to re-roll the scatter die for (Large) Blast weapons?
11268
Post by: nosferatu1001
Fragile wrote:nosferatu1001 wrote:Fragile wrote:So if we are ignoring the fact that we are required to have a 1 in order to reroll, by that logic, you could reroll 2's, 3's... etc... because you have "the ability to reroll" without the limiter.
No, we ignore your straw man, which ignores the rules.
Can you start providing some to back up your position? It's a simple request - prove yout have an "amount" of reroll you have to have before you can reroll scatter. Anything based on actual rules would be helpful, as you have totally avoided this until now
Sir lynch - any chance you read the thread, which shows you the rulEs on blasts and rerolls, instead of making the same argument as on page one, by thosee unable to.fund the rrule on blasts and rerolls? Thanks
You claim that PE grants a reroll regardless of having to roll a 1. You cannot apply that to blast weapons and not to any other. If you ignore the having to roll a 1 for blast, then you can ignore the 1 for any other weapon.
As far as rules, its clearly written. You have to roll a 1. Show me a 1 on a scatter die.
It does, when you are rolling for Blast weapons> That is because the actual rules for blast weapons simply ask you if you get a reroll to hit - which you do. Show me a "1" on a BS5 model with reroll to hit rolling for Scatter - then you get your reroll. Oh, wait, that isnt how Blasts work - as you NEVER roll to hit with blasts, INSTEAD you roll the scatter dice! Almost like you're ignoring the rules...
Again: ANY Rules to support your contention? I continue to see a startling lack from you. Further failure to provide a rule stating that you must have an "amount" of reroll to-hit before you get to reroll scattrer (remember - the two are different things - something you are struggling with) will be treated as your concession.
35241
Post by: HawaiiMatt
Redemption wrote:What about the Objuration Mechanicum psychic power, that forces the enemy unit to re-roll To Hit rolls of 6. Would that suddenly also grant the enemy unit to re-roll the scatter die for (Large) Blast weapons?
I would say no. I'd say it gives you a re-roll to miss.
Objuration Mechanicum isn't a re-roll "to hit". You had already hit (you rolled a 6), you are forced to re-roll the result to cause a miss, not a hit.
Yes, that's reaching, but it seems to make sense.
11268
Post by: nosferatu1001
"to hit" is, however, a defined term Matt - it has a specific meaning in the rules.
Old Eldar Guide alllwed you a reroll to-hit;. You could (and often did) reroll hits in order to get more Ap1 from a ranger unit. This being optional does not make it different to the malediction whenyou apply it to a hit.
66089
Post by: Kangodo
nosferatu1001 wrote:If you have the ability to re-roll, you re-roll the scatter.
PE gives you the ability to reroll - 1's only maybe, but you DO get to reroll. The rules for blasts do not require that you be able to reroll *all* dice
In short, I agree with Peregrine. Which really doesnt happen often 
This might come as a shock, but even I agree with you
65714
Post by: Lord Krungharr
Nosferatu, the Blasts with Rerolls rule has this as an amount of rerolls to qualify a Blast for rerolling the scatter dice and 2D6:
[i]If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast weapon, the player must re-roll both the scatter dice and the 2D6."
The amount to qualify is right in the rule; it's plural ROLLS To Hit, as in more than a single instance of missing, not just 1 particular dice roll that it would usually be rerolling if rolling a D6 for a To Hit. That's why Prescient Blasts would get to reroll the scatter/2D6.
This interpretation is not ignoring any rules, and I feel it's a balanced way of viewing the rules. Preferred Enemy wouldn't grant rerolling the hitting in this case of Blasts, but Blasts increase the chance of hitting more than a single model, and it would grant rerolling some wounding.
42985
Post by: liturgies of blood
1's happen in a plural just like misses which both cause re-rolls to hit.
@Nos, do you think PE would work when not shooting at a PE enemy?
65714
Post by: Lord Krungharr
No, the 1s do not cause the reroll of the scatter dice and 2D6. My view is just as valid as yours. The plural does make a difference. If the Blasts and Rerolls said, "If the model rerolls any of its To Hit rolls then it may choose...." then I would agree with you.
And if the enemy target is not of the Preferred Enemy type specified in the army/unit rules, you most certainly would not get a reroll of the scatter dice. If you wouldn't get a reroll To Hit with a non-blast weapon then there is no reroll To Hit at all. That's just silly to think otherwise.
61964
Post by: Fragile
nosferatu1001 wrote:It does, when you are rolling for Blast weapons> That is because the actual rules for blast weapons simply ask you if you get a reroll to hit - which you do. Show me a "1" on a BS5 model with reroll to hit rolling for Scatter - then you get your reroll. Oh, wait, that isnt how Blasts work - as you NEVER roll to hit with blasts, INSTEAD you roll the scatter dice! Almost like you're ignoring the rules...
Like your ignoring the requirement to roll a 1. Funny that Gets Hots has a mechanic to "roll a 1" but PE doesnt. Its almost like your making up rules.... that dont work...
Again: ANY Rules to support your contention? I continue to see a startling lack from you. Further failure to provide a rule stating that you must have an "amount" of reroll to-hit before you get to reroll scattrer (remember - the two are different things - something you are struggling with) will be treated as your concession.
Almost every argument you have seems to have a statement like this is it. Is this your escape when losing an argument ?
42985
Post by: liturgies of blood
Lord Krungharr wrote:No, the 1s do not cause the reroll of the scatter dice and 2D6. My view is just as valid as yours. The plural does make a difference. If the Blasts and Rerolls said, "If the model rerolls any of its To Hit rolls then it may choose...." then I would agree with you.
And if the enemy target is not of the Preferred Enemy type specified in the army/unit rules, you most certainly would not get a reroll of the scatter dice. If you wouldn't get a reroll To Hit with a non-blast weapon then there is no reroll To Hit at all. That's just silly to think otherwise.
Firstly, you have yet to give any rules for where the distinction of a re-roll of a fixed value and a re-roll of a variable in how they are seen in the rules. What is the difference in the rules of a model re-rolling 1's to hit with BS5 and a model re-rolling to hit rolls?
Secondly, you are not Nos.
47462
Post by: rigeld2
Fragile wrote:Like your ignoring the requirement to roll a 1. Funny that Gets Hots has a mechanic to "roll a 1" but PE doesnt. Its almost like your making up rules.... that dont work...
Why are you bringing Gets Hot into this? There's zero relevance.
And you're inventing a distinction that doesn't exist. Does PE allow a re-roll to hit? It really is a Yes or No question.
Almost every argument you have seems to have a statement like this is it. Is this your escape when losing an argument ?
Well, when you've provided zero rules support how is he supposed to argue against you?
61964
Post by: Fragile
The rule states you must roll a 1, to get a reroll. You have failed to provide how you roll a "to hit " roll of a 1 with scatter die. Hence you have no reroll.
Gets Hot is a similar mechanic. If you roll a 1 on the "to hit" roll you can suffer a wound. Since you cannot roll a 1 on scatter die, they had to add the mechanic do to so. PE has no added mechanic. You do not have a trigger to gain your reroll, hence RAW, you cannot reroll a PE blast.
Provide a rule that shows how to roll a 1 on a scatter die, or the missing extra die and you will be right, until then, you have nothing... and your answer would be No.
47462
Post by: rigeld2
Fragile wrote:The rule states you must roll a 1, to get a reroll. You have failed to provide how you roll a "to hit " roll of a 1 with scatter die. Hence you have no reroll.
BS6+ requires you to miss to have a re-roll. Using your argument, there is no re-roll. Therefore you have no re-roll for Blast Weapons. Replace "BS6+" with every other re-roll to-hit mechanic currently in the game. Provide a rule that shows how to roll a 1 on a scatter die, or the missing extra die and you will be right, until then, you have nothing... and your answer would be No.
Great, so the only ability that allows you to re-roll blasts is Twin Linked, and only because it has it's own exception. The rule under Blasts is useless. Have fun with your interpretation, I'll be over here with the actual rules.
61964
Post by: Fragile
rigeld2 wrote:Fragile wrote:The rule states you must roll a 1, to get a reroll. You have failed to provide how you roll a "to hit " roll of a 1 with scatter die. Hence you have no reroll.
BS6+ requires you to miss to have a re-roll. Using your argument, there is no re-roll. Therefore you have no re-roll for Blast Weapons.
Replace "BS6+" with every other re-roll to-hit mechanic currently in the game.
Provide a rule that shows how to roll a 1 on a scatter die, or the missing extra die and you will be right, until then, you have nothing... and your answer would be No.
Great, so the only ability that allows you to re-roll blasts is Twin Linked, and only because it has it's own exception. The rule under Blasts is useless. Have fun with your interpretation, I'll be over here with the actual rules.
Now you have RAW, and I accept your concession.
42985
Post by: liturgies of blood
Fragile wrote:The rule states you must roll a 1, to get a reroll. You have failed to provide how you roll a "to hit " roll of a 1 with scatter die. Hence you have no reroll.
Gets Hot is a similar mechanic. If you roll a 1 on the "to hit" roll you can suffer a wound. Since you cannot roll a 1 on scatter die, they had to add the mechanic do to so. PE has no added mechanic. You do not have a trigger to gain your reroll, hence RAW, you cannot reroll a PE blast.
Provide a rule that shows how to roll a 1 on a scatter die, or the missing extra die and you will be right, until then, you have nothing... and your answer would be No.
Gets hot is not analogous to PE.
PE is somewhat analogous to twin-linked and other things that grant a re-roll. So just like twin-linked, divination, etc etc an ability to re-roll to hit gives you an ability with blast weapons as per the brb.
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Post by: rigeld2
Actually, no - that's not RAW. I've conceded nothing.
You've supplied zero - literally no - rules supporting that argument.
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Post by: liturgies of blood
Out of interest have people read the blast rules?
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Post by: Yad
It seems to me that folks are cherry picking the Preferred Enemy rule and focusing solely on the re-roll aspect of the rule, as opposed to the rule in it's entirety. As has been stated previously, you only get the re-roll on a To-Hit roll of '1'. Unless there is a specific exception (permissive ruleset), you cannot invoke the rule without satisfying the trigger.
There are many rules in 40k that can only be invoked/activated once certain things happen. You simply cannot get a re-roll from Preferred Enemy without first rolling a 1 on your To Hit roll.
In what way do the Blast/Barrage rules reference rolling to hit? That's a rhetorical question as we should all know by now that the rules say "...instead of rolling To Hit..."
-Yad
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Post by: rigeld2
Yad wrote:It seems to me that folks are cherry picking the Preferred Enemy rule and focusing solely on the re-roll aspect of the rule, as opposed to the rule in it's entirety. As has been stated previously, you only get the re-roll on a To-Hit roll of '1'. Unless there is a specific exception (permissive ruleset), you cannot invoke the rule without satisfying the trigger. There are many rules in 40k that can only be invoked/activated once certain things happen. You simply cannot get a re-roll from Preferred Enemy without first rolling a 1 on your To Hit roll. In what way do the Blast/Barrage rules reference rolling to hit? That's a rhetorical question as we should all know by now that the rules say "...instead of rolling To Hit..." -Yad
Then it's your assertion that there is literally no way to re-roll scatter on blasts. It's incorrect, but that's where your argument leads. edit: save Twin-Linked because of its specific rules.
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Post by: Quark
rigeld2 wrote:
Then it's your assertion that there is literally no way to re-roll scatter on blasts. It's incorrect, but that's where your argument leads.
edit: save Twin-Linked because of its specific rules.
Yes, I have been convinced that BS6+ doesn't get reroll on blasts. Besides, you're getting benefit from the reduced scatter anyway.
Also, http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/497090.page
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Post by: Yad
rigeld2 wrote:Yad wrote:It seems to me that folks are cherry picking the Preferred Enemy rule and focusing solely on the re-roll aspect of the rule, as opposed to the rule in it's entirety. As has been stated previously, you only get the re-roll on a To-Hit roll of '1'. Unless there is a specific exception (permissive ruleset), you cannot invoke the rule without satisfying the trigger.
There are many rules in 40k that can only be invoked/activated once certain things happen. You simply cannot get a re-roll from Preferred Enemy without first rolling a 1 on your To Hit roll.
In what way do the Blast/Barrage rules reference rolling to hit? That's a rhetorical question as we should all know by now that the rules say "...instead of rolling To Hit..."
-Yad
Then it's your assertion that there is literally no way to re-roll scatter on blasts. It's incorrect, but that's where your argument leads.
edit: save Twin-Linked because of its specific rules.
No that's not what I'm asserting. I'm asserting that there is no way for models/units with Preferred Enemy to re-roll scatter. My argument has focused specifically on the Preferred Enemy rule and how it interacts with the blast rule. I'm not sure how you're trying to tie in the inability of Preferred Enemy to allow Scatter re-rolls with stopping all re-rolling of blasts. Aside from Twin-Linked what other ability/effect/rule do you think should allow you to re-roll the scatter?
Within the confines of the 40k rules, a To Hit roll is a 'thing'. Just like Scatter rolls, Leadership test, Morale check, Armour save, etc. Preferred Enemy is specifically tied to the To Hit roll. So, do the blast rules allow you to make a To Hit roll?
-Yad
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Post by: rigeld2
BS6+, Prescience, any other ability currently in the game that gives re-rolls when you miss...
Also, old threads mean nothing. Nos is the only one (that I can see) that argued one way before, and the other now.
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Post by: Crimson
rigeld2 wrote:
Then it's your assertion that there is literally no way to re-roll scatter on blasts. It's incorrect, but that's where your argument leads.
edit: save Twin-Linked because of its specific rules.
It is at least as correct as your interpretation. And you cannot argue the the interpretation is wrong because it leads to weird and clearly non-intended outcome, yours does too. That is an argument of intent and we already know the intent; but that was not good enough for you.
Unless specified otherwise, re-roll to hit always means re rolling all failed to hit rolls. There is no reason to assume that blast rules mean anything besides that. That is the intent, it should be clear enough. I leave you to pointlessly wrestle over who has the supreme RAW and go play some 40K instead.
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Post by: rigeld2
Crimson wrote:Unless specified otherwise, re-roll to hit always means re rolling all failed to hit rolls.
Please, for once, show some actual rules support for the bolded statement.
It doesn't exist, meaning any conclusion derived from it is factually incorrect.
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Post by: Yad
rigeld2 wrote: Crimson wrote:Unless specified otherwise, re-roll to hit always means re rolling all failed to hit rolls.
Please, for once, show some actual rules support for the bolded statement.
It doesn't exist, meaning any conclusion derived from it is factually incorrect.
This is what's confusing to me. Like I mentioned earlier, the To Hit roll is a 'thing' within the 40k rules. Meaning it is a specific game mechanic with 'well' defined rules supporting it. (I say 'well' cause this is GW we're talking about). So whenever a rule says, "re-roll the To Hit roll" it can only, unless otherwise specified, be the To Hit roll.
-Yad
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Post by: liturgies of blood
Unless another rules sublimates a re-roll on your to hit table into another ability. Which is what we are actually talking about.
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Post by: Crimson
rigeld2 wrote:
Please, for once, show some actual rules support for the bolded statement.
It doesn't exist, meaning any conclusion derived from it is factually incorrect.
You don't have any rules support for the claim that it would mean anything else. And it doesn't really matter. We already know the intent, I'm right, you're wrong; rest is just pointless intellectual wankery.
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Post by: liturgies of blood
Crimson wrote: We already know the intent, I'm right, you're wrong; rest is just pointless intellectual wankery.
Bollocks! If we knew the intent we'd be GW writers.
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Post by: nosferatu1001
Lord Krungharr wrote:No, the 1s do not cause the reroll of the scatter dice and 2D6. My view is just as valid as yours. The plural does make a difference. If the Blasts and Rerolls said, "If the model rerolls any of its To Hit rolls then it may choose...." then I would agree with you.
And if the enemy target is not of the Preferred Enemy type specified in the army/unit rules, you most certainly would not get a reroll of the scatter dice. If you wouldn't get a reroll To Hit with a non-blast weapon then there is no reroll To Hit at all. That's just silly to think otherwise.
I fire an assault 2 weapon, with PE. I roll {1,1}. I reroll my to hit ROLLS of 1 due to PE.
Oh look, your plurality argument fails, as you failed to listen to context. Debunked. Next argument on quantity?
Fragile wrote:nosferatu1001 wrote:It does, when you are rolling for Blast weapons> That is because the actual rules for blast weapons simply ask you if you get a reroll to hit - which you do. Show me a "1" on a BS5 model with reroll to hit rolling for Scatter - then you get your reroll. Oh, wait, that isnt how Blasts work - as you NEVER roll to hit with blasts, INSTEAD you roll the scatter dice! Almost like you're ignoring the rules...
Like your ignoring the requirement to roll a 1. Funny that Gets Hots has a mechanic to "roll a 1" but PE doesnt. Its almost like your making up rules.... that dont work...
What, making up the rule that states you get a reroll on scatter if you reroll to-hit? Have you even read the rule in question?
Serious question, as you appear to be entirely unaware of this rules existence.
If I am BS5 and reroll failed to-hit, I also have to roll a 1 in order to re-roll. According to you, we just ignore the rules and dont provide a reroll on a scatter.
I'll play by the actual rules, while you pretend they dont exist. I know which is preferable
Fragile wrote:Again: ANY Rules to support your contention? I continue to see a startling lack from you. Further failure to provide a rule stating that you must have an "amount" of reroll to-hit before you get to reroll scattrer (remember - the two are different things - something you are struggling with) will be treated as your concession.
Almost every argument you have seems to have a statement like this is it. Is this your escape when losing an argument ?
Amusing that you think that, when you have yet to provide a SINGLE RULE to support your made up gak, that I am "losing" the argument.
So again - does a reroll to-hit of a 1 fulfill the requirement to reroll to hit? Any chance you could provide some rules, at any point in thsi thread, or are you unaware of other rules, such as the tenets of this forum?
Further baseless arguments from you will be ignored as proof that you are making a houserule argument, and can therefore safely be ignored as irrelevant to this thread.
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Post by: Yad
liturgies of blood wrote:Unless another rules sublimates a re-roll on your to hit table into another ability. Which is what we are actually talking about.
First off, I'm not entirely sure on your use of 'sublimate'.
Do you mean that instead of making a To Hit roll, you are placing the marker and rolling for scatter and that it still counts as a To Hit roll even though the rule itself stated that you are not rolling To Hit?
-Yad
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Post by: nosferatu1001
Crimson wrote:rigeld2 wrote:
Please, for once, show some actual rules support for the bolded statement.
It doesn't exist, meaning any conclusion derived from it is factually incorrect.
You don't have any rules support for the claim that it would mean anything else. And it doesn't really matter. We already know the intent, I'm right, you're wrong; rest is just pointless intellectual wankery.
Actually he does, as has been proven. You just keep making up assertions, fail to support them, and are called on it.
We also dont know the intent for PE, at all. Youre just making up more crap by saying that.
If it is "pointless intellectual wankery", feel free to not post again in this thread. It doesnt appear to be for you.
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Post by: rigeld2
Crimson wrote:rigeld2 wrote:
Please, for once, show some actual rules support for the bolded statement.
It doesn't exist, meaning any conclusion derived from it is factually incorrect.
You don't have any rules support for the claim that it would mean anything else. And it doesn't really matter. We already know the intent, I'm right, you're wrong; rest is just pointless intellectual wankery.
We know the intent for another, similar, ability. It is not the same ability. You're inventing that correlation.
And of course, an argument about intent is different from an argument about the rules. I couldn't care less what the intent is (because my local TOs will decide for me - and have in this case).
"pointless intellectual wankery" really? Do you need to be so insulting?
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Post by: nosferatu1001
Sadly yes, and not just in this thread. It appears to be tolerated, however.
ALso we still dont know the intent behind the similar ability - the accuracy of the rules sections are low enough to cause questions, but relyingon the totally "wild" section of the rest of a codex? LAughable.
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Post by: Crimson
rigeld2 wrote:
We know the intent for another, similar, ability. It is not the same ability. You're inventing that correlation.
Good enough for me. Especially as it is the interpretation that works best in practice and do not lead to weirdness with all sort of abilities.
And of course, an argument about intent is different from an argument about the rules. I couldn't care less what the intent is (because my local TOs will decide for me - and have in this case).
I wish people would stop assuming that pure RAW exist in some platonic sense. It doesn't. Rules are just English sentences, often unclear and confusing; just like in this case.
"pointless intellectual wankery" really? Do you need to be so insulting?
Perhaps I should have said 'sophistry' instead.
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Post by: nosferatu1001
AS opposed to your pointless making up of rules, aserting them, and insulting others when called on it?
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Post by: Crimson
nosferatu1001 wrote:AS opposed to your pointless making up of rules, aserting them, and insulting others when called on it?
I have not made up rules, I never even made any RAW argument on this, merely an argument of intent. Furthermore, it was never my intent to be insulting, merely to point out that it is pointless to argue over strict- RAW reading of an unclear rule, intent of which is already known.
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Post by: rigeld2
Crimson wrote:nosferatu1001 wrote:AS opposed to your pointless making up of rules, aserting them, and insulting others when called on it?
I have not made up rules, I never even made any RAW argument on this, merely an argument of intent. Furthermore, it was never my intent to be insulting, merely to point out that it is pointless to argue over strict- RAW reading of an unclear rule, intent of which is already known.
The intent of a similar rule is known, and it is pretty clear.
Unless you're saying that the intent of the blast rules is to not apply to literally any current ability?
And you absolutely did make up rules when you said, and I quote,
Crimson wrote:Unless specified otherwise, re-roll to hit always means re rolling all failed to hit rolls.
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Post by: nosferatu1001
Crimson wrote:nosferatu1001 wrote:AS opposed to your pointless making up of rules, aserting them, and insulting others when called on it?
I have not made up rules, I never even made any RAW argument on this, merely an argument of intent. Furthermore, it was never my intent to be insulting, merely to point out that it is pointless to argue over strict- RAW reading of an unclear rule, intent of which is already known.
Really? So you never made an assertion about the "quantity" of "reroll to-hit " is meant by GW
Crimson wrote:Unless specified otherwise, re-roll to hit always means re rolling all failed to hit rolls.
Liar.
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Post by: Yad
nosferatu1001 wrote:Crimson wrote:nosferatu1001 wrote:AS opposed to your pointless making up of rules, aserting them, and insulting others when called on it?
I have not made up rules, I never even made any RAW argument on this, merely an argument of intent. Furthermore, it was never my intent to be insulting, merely to point out that it is pointless to argue over strict- RAW reading of an unclear rule, intent of which is already known.
Really? So you never made an assertion about the "quantity" of "reroll to-hit " is meant by GW
Crimson wrote:Unless specified otherwise, re-roll to hit always means re rolling all failed to hit rolls.
Liar.
I'm not sure this the most constructive use of this thread. Perhaps we should take a step back before anyone says anything that will get them a stern talking to.
-Yad
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Post by: Crimson
nosferatu1001 wrote:
Really? So you never made an assertion about the "quantity" of "reroll to-hit " is meant by GW
Crimson wrote:Unless specified otherwise, re-roll to hit always means re rolling all failed to hit rolls.
Liar.
Charming.
It must be that both you and Rigeld failed to notice a sentence in the same paragraph you quoted that made it clear that I was talking about intent. (A honest mistake I'm sure; I don't want to be impolite and call anyone a liar after all! I know how you appreciate politeness in discourse.)
Crimson wrote:That is the intent, it should be clear enough.
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Post by: rigeld2
I'll quote the whole paragraph.
Unless specified otherwise, re-roll to hit always means re rolling all failed to hit rolls. There is no reason to assume that blast rules mean anything besides that. That is the intent, it should be clear enough.
I left out the unnecessary rudeness.
The underlined sentences go together. I did not make the connection between them and the non-underlined. Perhaps if you worded things better it would help.
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Post by: DeathReaper
rigeld2 wrote: DeathReaper wrote:The rules are written on the basis that needing a re-roll is because you missed.
If you hit there is no reason to, nor can you re-roll.
The first half of your sentence is false, and the second is only true for now - there's no guarantee the next codex won't invalidate that statement.
So have fun with your biased assumptions, ill be over here with what the rules actually say.
The first half is not false. Twin Linked and Prescience confirm this.
Why are you saying there is bias, when there is none?
Plus, you even confirmed my text that said "If you hit there is no reason to, nor can you re-roll." is true so your statement of "ill be over here with what the rules actually say." does not make any sense, as I have posted actual rules.
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Post by: rigeld2
DeathReaper wrote:rigeld2 wrote: DeathReaper wrote:The rules are written on the basis that needing a re-roll is because you missed.
If you hit there is no reason to, nor can you re-roll.
The first half of your sentence is false, and the second is only true for now - there's no guarantee the next codex won't invalidate that statement.
So have fun with your biased assumptions, ill be over here with what the rules actually say.
The first half is not false. Twin Linked and Prescience confirm this.
So BS6+ doesn't miss, it just happened to roll a 1?
Why are you saying there is bias, when there is none?
I can't think of any other reason for you to make the assumptions that you have.
Plus, you even confirmed my text that said "If you hit there is no reason to, nor can you re-roll." is true so your statement of "ill be over here with what the rules actually say." does not make any sense, as I have posted actual rules.
The bolded is absolutely false, and what I was referring to. I'd love to re-roll hits to try for 6's - just like I wish I could re-roll poisoned Genestealer hits for more Rends.
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Post by: Fragile
nosferatu1001 wrote:Crimson wrote:nosferatu1001 wrote:AS opposed to your pointless making up of rules, aserting them, and insulting others when called on it?
I have not made up rules, I never even made any RAW argument on this, merely an argument of intent. Furthermore, it was never my intent to be insulting, merely to point out that it is pointless to argue over strict- RAW reading of an unclear rule, intent of which is already known.
Really? So you never made an assertion about the "quantity" of "reroll to-hit " is meant by GW
Crimson wrote:Unless specified otherwise, re-roll to hit always means re rolling all failed to hit rolls.
Liar.
Wow, hard to argue with such eloquence.
BS6+, Prescience, any other ability currently in the game that gives re-rolls when you miss...
FYI Prescience works fine.
Serious question, as you appear to be entirely unaware of this rules existence.
If I am BS5 and reroll failed to-hit, I also have to roll a 1 in order to re-roll. According to you, we just ignore the rules and dont provide a reroll on a scatter.
Preferred Enemy. "..........A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule re-rolls failed To Hit and To Wound rolls of I if attacking its Preferred Enemy...."
Blasts... "When firing a Blast weapon, models do not roll To Hit......"
So again... tell me how you roll a TO HIT of a 1, when you do not roll to hit...
You consistently ignore that...
at any point in thsi thread, or are you unaware of other rules, such as the tenets of this forum?
Again with the Ad Hominem.... you should focus on the rules...
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Post by: rigeld2
Really? You're only allowed to re-roll failed to hit rolls. Blasts don't roll to hit as you're so able to remind us.
Pray - how do you have access to a re-roll that only exists when you fail a to-hit roll if you never make a to-hit roll?
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Post by: Fragile
Because your trying to ignore the trigger. Neither BS6+ nor PE grant a reroll until after a condition is met. (rolling of a 1) TL and Prescience have no such condition and met the requirements set forth in the Blast rule that allows a reroll.
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Post by: sirlynchmob
Since were ignoring triggers for any rerolls.
Can my ork big guns, always reroll it's blast shots without having to expend the ammo runt? It has the "ability to reroll" PE can cause a Reroll right? Sure,
Then the ammo runts being available to grant the ability should work without the trigger as well right? Yep, same reason.
To me this is the intent of the rule for blasts & rerolls, to cover any odd codex situations that might crop up. In the USR section they clearly point out how A certain rule interacts with blasts, and PE says nothing about blasts.
But if were going strictly RAW then I can reroll blast weapons and not expend my runts, so I concur with RAW
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Post by: Lord Krungharr
Hooray! Now my Obliterators can reroll the scatter on their plasma cannons against any enemy before charging out of a Land Raider with Abaddon within 12"! It's a win-win for Orks and Chaos Space Marines! Automatically Appended Next Post: nosferatu1001 wrote:Lord Krungharr wrote:No, the 1s do not cause the reroll of the scatter dice and 2D6. My view is just as valid as yours. The plural does make a difference. If the Blasts and Rerolls said, "If the model rerolls any of its To Hit rolls then it may choose...." then I would agree with you.
And if the enemy target is not of the Preferred Enemy type specified in the army/unit rules, you most certainly would not get a reroll of the scatter dice. If you wouldn't get a reroll To Hit with a non-blast weapon then there is no reroll To Hit at all. That's just silly to think otherwise.
I fire an assault 2 weapon, with PE. I roll {1,1}. I reroll my to hit ROLLS of 1 due to PE.
Oh look, your plurality argument fails, as you failed to listen to context. Debunked. Next argument on quantity?
That's not a valid argument, perhaps that is a strawman that people seem to be fond of talking about? The plurality referred to is the single-condition of a reroll To Hit by Preferred Enemy vs. the universal-condition of a reroll To Hit granted by Twin-linked/Prescience; the universe being a D6 in this case. (as described in the Blasts and Rerolls rules, which yes we have read, as I posted it a page or two back.)
from Liturgies of Blood: Firstly, you have yet to give any rules for where the distinction of a re-roll of a fixed value and a re-roll of a variable in how they are seen in the rules. What is the difference in the rules of a model re-rolling 1's to hit with BS5 and a model re-rolling to hit rolls?
Secondly, you are not Nos.
The distinction is self-evident in the words of the pertinent rules, a specific condition vs. a general condition.
The crux of the question is does the Blast Rerolls rule intend to mean a model that can reroll all its To Hit rolls gets to reroll scatter dice , or does it mean a model with any[/i] rerolls To Hit grant a rerolling of the scatter dice. The plural of the wording makes me think I'm right...those who oppose think the plural tense of 'rolls' ignores the singular condition of PE or other similar rules.
What is Nos?
And whoever said it "The TOs will decide" is correct, and in my tournament this weekend I have already ruled on it. I'm also pretty confident GW will rule the same way if they ever get around to it, sometimes they do.....But if they rule the other way then someday I'll have all sorts of Blast weapons around Abaddon, and they won't scatter back onto him!
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Post by: rigeld2
Fragile wrote:Because your trying to ignore the trigger. Neither BS6+ nor PE grant a reroll until after a condition is met. (rolling of a 1) TL and Prescience have no such condition and met the requirements set forth in the Blast rule that allows a reroll.
Stop using TL as an example - it has an explicit rule.
Prescience absolutely has a condition - you have to fail a to hit roll to be granted a re-roll. Or are you saying it allows re-rolls of to hits?
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Post by: Fragile
Blast Weapons and Rerolls.
"If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast weapon,...."
Prescience.
"Whilst the power is in effect, the target unit can re-roll all failed To Hit rolls.."
What part there do you see in conflict.
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Post by: rigeld2
Fragile wrote:Blast Weapons and Rerolls.
"If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast weapon,...."
Prescience.
"Whilst the power is in effect, the target unit can re-roll all failed To Hit rolls.."
What part there do you see in conflict.
I don't see a conflict.
I do, however, see a conditional on Prescience. Which you're insisting is what breaks PE.
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Post by: sirlynchmob
rigeld2 wrote:Fragile wrote:Blast Weapons and Rerolls.
"If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast weapon,...."
Prescience.
"Whilst the power is in effect, the target unit can re-roll all failed To Hit rolls.."
What part there do you see in conflict.
I don't see a conflict.
I do, however, see a conditional on Prescience. Which you're insisting is what breaks PE.
And there's a condition for ammo runts, which you insist isn't necessary as the rules for blast bypass it.
do you agree ammo runts always grant rerolls weather or not you remove a runt?
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Post by: Fragile
There is no conditional on Prescience.
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Post by: rigeld2
Fragile wrote:There is no conditional on Prescience.
Really? You even quoted it. I'll bold it for you.
Fragile wrote:"Whilst the power is in effect, the target unit can re-roll all failed To Hit rolls.."
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Post by: Fragile
Which has nothing to do with the rules in question.
So then is "Reroll failed To Hit Rolls" = "Reroll failed To Hit Rolls of a 1" ??
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Post by: rigeld2
So the conditional there is okay, but a conditional in PE is right out.
That's the type of consistent argument that makes sense and influences people! Well done! (that was sarcasm btw)
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Post by: Fragile
So you avoid the question and resort to sarcasm... aka you have nothing ?
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Post by: rigeld2
I didn't avoid the question actually - you did.
I said there was a conditional. You said there wasn't. I pointed it out. You said it had nothing to do with the rules in question. You have failed to support that statement.
You're asserting that one rule with a conditional works while another rule with a conditional does not. Please explain why. (there's no sarcasm there)
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Post by: DeathReaper
he rules are written on the basis that needing a re-roll is because you missed as evident in prescience, Twin Linked BS6+ etc...
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Post by: rigeld2
DeathReaper wrote:he rules are written on the basis that needing a re-roll is because you missed as evident in prescience, Twin Linked BS6+ etc...
You should re-read that rule. It does not say what you think it says.
And now you're arguing for intent.
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Post by: DeathReaper
I read the rules. not intent argument. The RAW is written in such a way that you re-roll when you miss, as evident on TL/Prescience, and even in BS6+. the BS6+ says to re-roll 1's (the extrapolation being this is AKA All misses) as 2+ hits with BS6 and 1's are all misses.
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Post by: rigeld2
DeathReaper wrote:I read the rules. not intent argument.
The RAW is written in such a way that you re-roll when you miss, as evident on TL/Prescience, and even in BS6+.
the BS6+ says to re-roll 1's (the extrapolation being this is AKA All misses) as 2+ hits with BS6 and 1's are all misses.
So how is PE's re-roll different? It applies when missing as well.
And BS6+ does not say to re-roll when you miss.
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Post by: DeathReaper
PE does not always apply when missing.
If you have a BS 4 and PE Orks, and you shoot and roll a 2, you have missed, TL or Prescience would make you re-roll this, PE does not.
BS6+ does not explicitly say to re-roll when you miss, but it tells you to re-roll 1's, which are the only number that misses with a BS6+ so it is the same as TL or Prescience as you re-roll all misses with those three things.
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Post by: rigeld2
DeathReaper wrote:PE does not always apply when missing.
If you have a BS 4 and PE Orks, and you shoot and roll a 2, you have missed, TL or Prescience would make you re-roll this, PE does not.
Which isn't what the Blast rule actually asks for.
BS6+ does not explicitly say to re-roll when you miss, but it tells you to re-roll 1's, which are the only number that misses with a BS6+ so it is the same as TL or Prescience as you re-roll all misses with those three things.
So one of them has different rules, but they're all the same - even if that one is worded identically to PE. And you're not making an argument for intent.
Cool story bro.
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Post by: DeathReaper
rigeld2 wrote: DeathReaper wrote:PE does not always apply when missing.
If you have a BS 4 and PE Orks, and you shoot and roll a 2, you have missed, TL or Prescience would make you re-roll this, PE does not.
Which isn't what the Blast rule actually asks for.
I made no mention of the Blast rules, I was just clarifying the base rules.
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Post by: rigeld2
DeathReaper wrote:rigeld2 wrote: DeathReaper wrote:PE does not always apply when missing.
If you have a BS 4 and PE Orks, and you shoot and roll a 2, you have missed, TL or Prescience would make you re-roll this, PE does not.
Which isn't what the Blast rule actually asks for.
I made no mention of the Blast rules, I was just clarifying the base rules.
... Which are irrelevant in this case. So thanks? for going off-topic.
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Post by: DeathReaper
The base rules are relevant when discussing the rules...
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Post by: rigeld2
Please, elaborate.
How does the fact that every to-hit rule is conditional apply in a discussion about the sentence "If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit"?
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Post by: liturgies of blood
Yad wrote: liturgies of blood wrote:Unless another rules sublimates a re-roll on your to hit table into another ability. Which is what we are actually talking about.
First off, I'm not entirely sure on your use of 'sublimate'.
Do you mean that instead of making a To Hit roll, you are placing the marker and rolling for scatter and that it still counts as a To Hit roll even though the rule itself stated that you are not rolling To Hit?
-Yad
No that isn't even close. Please read the rules on blasts, it would be of great importance in this debate.
Sublimate means in this context to change the rules trigger from one form to another without the need to roll to hit. It's like the other technical meaning of the word that has nothing to do with sexual psychology, but thanks for assuming that I don't understand the big words.
That is what blasts do to re-rolls, it changes the permission to re-roll to hit rolls into something else. If the model has an ability to re-roll dice, then you get the abilities that the blast USR states you get.
What nobody has done is proven that PE doesn't grant a re-roll against the preferred enemy. Every re-roll is conditional on something if you want to be pedantic about it.
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Post by: nosferatu1001
Fragile wrote:So you avoid the question and resort to sarcasm... aka you have nothing ?
No, you avoided the critical question - why is ONE conditional (reroll all failed to hit) OK, and grants a reroll on the blast scatter roll, when another condition (reroll all 1s to hit) NOT OK?
PLease explain, using real rules for the first time this thread, with page and paragraph and citation of EXACTLY where the rulebook makes this specification, why this is the case
Your continued failure to do so tells a lot about the quality of your argument, and its ability to persuade others.
Again: the actual rules only require the ability for a model to be able to reroll its to-hit for it to be able to reroll scatter. Is rerolling to=hit rolls of a 1 a reroll to hit?
A simple yes or no answer would be helpful. If you state "no" it would be wonderful for you to explain why, using rules.
I'll wait. Should be amusing.
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Post by: Baktru
Lord Krungharr wrote:No, the 1s do not cause the reroll of the scatter dice and 2D6. My view is just as valid as yours. The plural does make a difference. If the Blasts and Rerolls said, "If the model rerolls any of its To Hit rolls then it may choose...." then I would agree with you.
And if the enemy target is not of the Preferred Enemy type specified in the army/unit rules, you most certainly would not get a reroll of the scatter dice. If you wouldn't get a reroll To Hit with a non-blast weapon then there is no reroll To Hit at all. That's just silly to think otherwise.
So your argument says that, if I have a Blast 2 weapon and PE, I get to re-roll?
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Post by: Crimson
No. Like Stealth (ruins) is not same as Stealth and Stormbolter is not same as Bolter.
Or maybe it is, but there is actually nothing in the rules that would allow us to conclude either way. (Luckily, there are things that let us conclude the intent, which works for those of us who actually intend to play the game.)
Once again, in the case of a genuinely unclear rule you decide that your arbitrary definition is right, and others need to show rules quotes that prove you wrong, while you actually cannot prove your original assumption right either. That's what unclear rules are. If there was a clear way to prove it either way, we wouldn't be having this conversation. That's why pure RAW positions are stupid. Platonic clear RAW does not exist, some rules just are unclear or nonsensical as written.
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Post by: rigeld2
No, actually, it is clear. Your refusal to accept that is irrelevant.
And you're applying intent shown by words involving a similar rule (not the same). GW has ruled in different directions for similar rules multiple times.
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Post by: Lord Krungharr
No, you avoided the critical question - why is ONE conditional (reroll all failed to hit) OK, and grants a reroll on the blast scatter roll, when another condition (reroll all 1s to hit) NOT OK?
.
Because in the Blast and Rerolls section of the Blast rules it just says 'if the model has the ability to re-roll its ROLLS To Hit...". It does not say 'if a model has the ability to re-roll any of its To Hit rolls it gets to.....". If a model only has a limited ability to re-roll To Hits, as with PE, I and many others don't view that as a qualifying to use the Blast and Rerolls section. PE certainly does NOT meet the first criteria of being used with a Blast weapon at all, namely Blast Weapons DO NOT roll To Hit. That much alone makes it doubtful that PE could be used Blast Weapons.
Why your team refuses to acknowledge the difference and conflict between the PE and Blast/Rerolls rules is the most confusing part. We don't need to quote any more rules showing why it is different, because the Blast/Rerolls section and PE rules are already printed differently in the bloody book; the words which qualify each to occur are different, and therefore in some conflict with each other. Needing clarification, sure, discussion, sure. But you are not absolutely irrefutably correct until GW decides upon it.
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Post by: rigeld2
Lord Krungharr wrote: namely Blast Weapons DO NOT roll To Hit. That much alone makes it doubtful that PE could be used Blast Weapons.
Why your team refuses to acknowledge the difference and conflict between the PE and Blast/Rerolls rules is the most confusing part.
Because your "team" is using a double standard.
Prescience, et. al. must roll to hit and fail before having a re-roll.
BS6+ must roll to hit and roll a 1 before having a re-roll.
PE must roll to hit and roll a 1 before having a re-roll.
And I'd bet you're okay with 2/3 of those working for re-rolling scatter. And there's zero basis for that double standard to apply.
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Post by: HawaiiMatt
nosferatu1001 wrote:Fragile wrote:So you avoid the question and resort to sarcasm... aka you have nothing ?
No, you avoided the critical question - why is ONE conditional (reroll all failed to hit) OK, and grants a reroll on the blast scatter roll, when another condition (reroll all 1s to hit) NOT OK?
PLease explain, using real rules for the first time this thread, with page and paragraph and citation of EXACTLY where the rulebook makes this specification, why this is the case
Let me take a stab at this.
Blasts say, If a model has the ability to re-roll its To Hit and choose to do so after firing a blast weapon, the player must re-roll both the scatter dice and the 2D6.
Twin-Linked weapons grant you the choice under the twin-linked rule (page 43).
Master-Crafted "Allows" a re-roll on one failed To Hit per turn with that weapon (page37); I'm saying the wordage allows implies a choice.
Prefered Enemy gives you the re-roll if you roll a 1 to hit.
Ammo Runt gives you a re-roll if you remove the ammo runt.
When you fail to roll a 1, or fail to remove the Ammo Runt, you are not meeting the Criteria that allows you to "choose to do so". (where "so" is re-rolling to hit).
IMO, you must qualify to use the rule to "choose to do so". I can't choose to move flat out, fire all my weapons, and pop smoke.
Does that make sense?
-Matt
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Post by: rigeld2
HawaiiMatt wrote:nosferatu1001 wrote:Fragile wrote:So you avoid the question and resort to sarcasm... aka you have nothing ?
No, you avoided the critical question - why is ONE conditional (reroll all failed to hit) OK, and grants a reroll on the blast scatter roll, when another condition (reroll all 1s to hit) NOT OK?
PLease explain, using real rules for the first time this thread, with page and paragraph and citation of EXACTLY where the rulebook makes this specification, why this is the case
Let me take a stab at this.
Blasts say, If a model has the ability to re-roll its To Hit and choose to do so after firing a blast weapon, the player must re-roll both the scatter dice and the 2D6.
Twin-Linked weapons grant you the choice under the twin-linked rule (page 43).
False, Twin-Linked says you must re-roll failed to hits.
Master-Crafted "Allows" a re-roll on one failed To Hit per turn with that weapon (page37); I'm saying the wordage allows implies a choice.
You mean 39. That one actually gives a choice.
When you fail to roll a 1, or fail to remove the Ammo Runt, you are not meeting the Criteria that allows you to "choose to do so". (where "so" is re-rolling to hit).
So the rule only applies if you have a choice? Then Master-Crafted and Twin-Linked are the only ones that work, and the latter only because it has a specific exception.
IMO, you must qualify to use the rule to "choose to do so". I can't choose to move flat out, fire all my weapons, and pop smoke.
Can you show me how Prescience qualifies to use the rule if it never rolls to hit?
Does that make sense?
It shows me you're applying the same double standard. Please explain why.
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Post by: Lord Krungharr
The Blast Weapons and Re-rolls rule does not mention rerolling failed To Hit rolls, it just mentions rerolling To Hit rolls. We must assume as an axiom that it means failed To Hit rolls, as all the other rules we are referencing speak of only rerolling failed To Hit rolls. Otherwise the PE advocates would automatically lose this argument, as you only reroll failed To Hit rolls of 1 with that rule. So if the Blasts Rerolls only occurs if models reroll To Hit rolls and not just failed To Hit rolls then nobody gets to reroll the scatter dice for Blasts except twin-linked Blasts (which only works if you don't get a Hit symbol on the scatter die). Furthermore, Rigeld2, Twin-linked blasts have their own rule, where rerolling the scatter dice is a choice. You complain about us not reading the rules; so I will say you can afford to brush up on them too. Prescience of course qualifies to reroll Blasts scatter dice as 'whilst in effect it allows the model to re-roll ALL failed To Hit rolls'. The Blasts and Re-rolls rule says if a model has the ability to re-roll its To Hit rolls. So if we assume the aforementioned axiom to be true, which to win your PE case you must, then Prescience would qualify. And you go all over the place without simply stating you don't think there is a difference between the general condition of re-rolling (failed) To Hit rolls, and the very specific condition of re-roll (failed) To Hit rolls of 1. So in a regular game we'll have to D6 it, or if there's a TO ask her or him, or get a petition worked up for GW to tell them to get of their butts and write some new FAQs. Allelujia! I rest my case, gotta move on.
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Post by: rigeld2
Lord Krungharr wrote:The Blast Weapons and Re-rolls rule does not mention rerolling failed To Hit rolls, it just mentions rerolling To Hit rolls.
Correct.
So if the Blasts Rerolls only occurs if models reroll To Hit rolls and not just failed To Hit rolls then nobody gets to reroll the scatter dice for Blasts except twin-linked Blasts (which only works if you don't get a Hit symbol on the scatter die).
Which is what I said.
Furthermore, Rigeld2, Twin-linked blasts have their own rule, where rerolling the scatter dice is a choice. You complain about us not reading the rules; so I will say you can afford to brush up on them too.
Please read what was said.
Blasts say, If a model has the ability to re-roll its To Hit and choose to do so after firing a blast weapon, the player must re-roll both the scatter dice and the 2D6.
Twin-Linked weapons grant you the choice under the twin-linked rule (page 43).
All of the examples in that post are abilities that re-roll to hit. He erroneously used Twin-Linked as an example and claimed it gave you a choice to re-roll to hit. It does not.
Prescience of course qualifies to reroll Blasts scatter dice as 'whilst in effect it allows the model to re-roll ALL failed To Hit rolls'. The Blasts and Re-rolls rule says if a model has the ability to re-roll its To Hit rolls. So if we assume the aforementioned axiom to be true, which to win your PE case you must, then Prescience would qualify.
Sure.
And you go all over the place without simply stating you don't think there is a difference between the general condition of re-rolling (failed) To Hit rolls, and the very specific condition of re-roll (failed) To Hit rolls of 1.
So - why the double standard? Why must you assume that abilities that don't roll to hit work, but abilities that don't roll to hit don't work? You've not actually argued anything in your entire post, just restated things that are already known.
My point is that people are saying PE cannot re-roll because it never rolls to hit and therefore never qualifies, and at the exact same time saying that other abilities that don't roll to hit and therefore never qualify actually do get to re-roll. With no rules explanation. At all. This cannot be a correct standing - please actually offer rules support for this opinion.
So in a regular game we'll have to D6 it, or if there's a TO ask her or him, or get a petition worked up for GW to tell them to get of their butts and write some new FAQs. Allelujia!
I rest my case, gotta move on.
You rest your case on what - you've not actually argued anything. Bye?
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Post by: Fragile
rigeld2 wrote: Lord Krungharr wrote: namely Blast Weapons DO NOT roll To Hit. That much alone makes it doubtful that PE could be used Blast Weapons.
Why your team refuses to acknowledge the difference and conflict between the PE and Blast/Rerolls rules is the most confusing part.
Because your "team" is using a double standard.
Prescience, et. al. must roll to hit and fail before having a re-roll.
BS6+ must roll to hit and roll a 1 before having a re-roll.
PE must roll to hit and roll a 1 before having a re-roll.
And I'd bet you're okay with 2/3 of those working for re-rolling scatter. And there's zero basis for that double standard to apply.
What does Prescience fail on?
I think I see what your trying to say. Your arguing the "fail to hit" is a conditional. Ok, then all three have conditions, however 2 of those have TWO conditions. First is a fail to hit, second is a roll of a 1. No matter what happens with Prescience, you will always reroll.
Unless you claiming that the Blast rule doesnt give permission and is just clarifying other rules like Twin Linked.
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Post by: HawaiiMatt
HawaiiMatt wrote:
Let me take a stab at this.
Blasts say, If a model has the ability to re-roll its To Hit and choose to do so after firing a blast weapon, the player must re-roll both the scatter dice and the 2D6.
Twin-Linked weapons grant you the choice under the twin-linked rule (page 43).
rigeld2 wrote:
False, Twin-Linked says you must re-roll failed to hits.
If the scatter dice does not roll a Hit, you can CHOOSE to re-roll the dice....
It appears to be True, in the context of blasts. You must re-roll normal shooting, you may re-roll blast shooting.
rigeld2 wrote:
Master-Crafted "Allows" a re-roll on one failed To Hit per turn with that weapon (page37); I'm saying the wordage allows implies a choice.
You mean 39. That one actually gives a choice.
When you fail to roll a 1, or fail to remove the Ammo Runt, you are not meeting the Criteria that allows you to "choose to do so". (where "so" is re-rolling to hit).
So the rule only applies if you have a choice? Then Master-Crafted and Twin-Linked are the only ones that work, and the latter only because it has a specific exception.
That is exactly what I'm saying.
If you don't have the choice to use the reroll, you don't qualify for the rule that lets you re-roll blast scatters.
Prescience wouldn't work with blasts, as you have no choice. You'd still be re-rolling all your to hit rolls, just not scatter dice.
I mean, isn't the rule phrased as "Choose to do so" is a condition of having re-rolls to hit, and not a exclusion of being required to re-roll the scatter die?
I'm not trying to troll here, I'm a mathematics guy, not a grammar guy.
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Post by: rigeld2
Fragile wrote:rigeld2 wrote: Lord Krungharr wrote: namely Blast Weapons DO NOT roll To Hit. That much alone makes it doubtful that PE could be used Blast Weapons.
Why your team refuses to acknowledge the difference and conflict between the PE and Blast/Rerolls rules is the most confusing part.
Because your "team" is using a double standard.
Prescience, et. al. must roll to hit and fail before having a re-roll.
BS6+ must roll to hit and roll a 1 before having a re-roll.
PE must roll to hit and roll a 1 before having a re-roll.
And I'd bet you're okay with 2/3 of those working for re-rolling scatter. And there's zero basis for that double standard to apply.
What does Prescience fail on?
When you succeed a roll to hit...
I think I see what your trying to say. Your arguing the "fail to hit" is a conditional. Ok, then all three have conditions, however 2 of those have TWO conditions. First is a fail to hit, second is a roll of a 1. No matter what happens with Prescience, you will always reroll.
They all have 2 conditions. All 3 must roll to hit. One must miss, the others must roll a one.
You absolutely do not always reroll with prescience - you only reroll misses.
Figured out an explanation of your double standard?
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Post by: Abandon
nosferatu1001 wrote:"to hit" is, however, a defined term Matt - it has a specific meaning in the rules..
This^^^. The refereed to To Hit roll is capitalized because it is not just a mechanic, it is a title naming the mechanic to achieve hits in shooting and CC.
Fragile wrote:The rule states you must roll a 1, to get a reroll. You have failed to provide how you roll a "to hit " roll of a 1 with scatter die. Hence you have no reroll.
Gets Hot is a similar mechanic. If you roll a 1 on the "to hit" roll you can suffer a wound. Since you cannot roll a 1 on scatter die, they had to add the mechanic do to so. PE has no added mechanic. You do not have a trigger to gain your reroll, hence RAW, you cannot reroll a PE blast.
Provide a rule that shows how to roll a 1 on a scatter die, or the missing extra die and you will be right, until then, you have nothing... and your answer would be No.
This is a failed argument. You cannot fail a To Hit roll with scatter either as you make no To Hit roll. Obviously a misreading of the rule.
Crimson wrote:rigeld2 wrote:
Then it's your assertion that there is literally no way to re-roll scatter on blasts. It's incorrect, but that's where your argument leads.
edit: save Twin-Linked because of its specific rules.
It is at least as correct as your interpretation. And you cannot argue the the interpretation is wrong because it leads to weird and clearly non-intended outcome, yours does too. That is an argument of intent and we already know the intent; but that was not good enough for you.
Unless specified otherwise, re-roll to hit always means re rolling all failed to hit rolls. There is no reason to assume that blast rules mean anything besides that. That is the intent, it should be clear enough. I leave you to pointlessly wrestle over who has the supreme RAW and go play some 40K instead.
DeathReaper wrote:he rules are written on the basis that needing a re-roll is because you missed as evident in prescience, Twin Linked BS6+ etc...
Lord Krungharr wrote:The Blast Weapons and Re-rolls rule does not mention rerolling failed To Hit rolls, it just mentions rerolling To Hit rolls.
We must assume as an axiom that it means failed To Hit rolls, as all the other rules we are referencing speak of only rerolling failed To Hit rolls.
demonstrably not always true. OM makes you reroll successful To Hit rolls and does indeed count as rerolling To Hit. So not all rerolls are a result of failed To Hit rolls.
Fragile wrote:Blast Weapons and Rerolls.
"If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast weapon,...."
Prescience.
"Whilst the power is in effect, the target unit can re-roll all failed To Hit rolls.."
What part there do you see in conflict.
There is no conflict in those rules. The error is in your interpretation that 'failed To hit rolls' is not a condition to get a reroll.
liturgies of blood wrote:Yad wrote: liturgies of blood wrote:Unless another rules sublimates a re-roll on your to hit table into another ability. Which is what we are actually talking about.
First off, I'm not entirely sure on your use of 'sublimate'.
Do you mean that instead of making a To Hit roll, you are placing the marker and rolling for scatter and that it still counts as a To Hit roll even though the rule itself stated that you are not rolling To Hit?
-Yad
No that isn't even close. Please read the rules on blasts, it would be of great importance in this debate.
Sublimate means in this context to change the rules trigger from one form to another without the need to roll to hit. It's like the other technical meaning of the word that has nothing to do with sexual psychology, but thanks for assuming that I don't understand the big words.
That is what blasts do to re-rolls, it changes the permission to re-roll to hit rolls into something else. If the model has an ability to re-roll dice, then you get the abilities that the blast USR states you get.
What nobody has done is proven that PE doesn't grant a re-roll against the preferred enemy. Every re-roll is conditional on something if you want to be pedantic about it.
Not sure that's exactly it unless you mean both the trigger and the effect are replaced in which case the original rule is not observed at all other than to check that it is there. The condition of 'fail a roll To Hit' cannot be met because their is not roll To Hit nor can the effect of rerolling the roll To Hit be applied for the same reason.
This seems like just a check to see if you have a rule that allows you to reroll To Hit rolls and an option to choose to use it but it does not actually allow you to do so as it cannot be used, instead allowing you to reroll scatter.
Fragile wrote:
I think I see what your trying to say. Your arguing the "fail to hit" is a conditional. Ok, then all three have conditions, however 2 of those have TWO conditions. First is a fail to hit, second is a roll of a 1. No matter what happens with Prescience, you will always reroll.
Prescience lets you reroll your failed To Hit rolls, that is not 'always' rerolling. That is sometimes or conditional rerolling.
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Post by: DeathReaper
Abandon wrote:DeathReaper wrote:he rules are written on the basis that needing a re-roll is because you missed as evident in prescience, Twin Linked BS6+ etc...
Lord Krungharr wrote:The Blast Weapons and Re-rolls rule does not mention rerolling failed To Hit rolls, it just mentions rerolling To Hit rolls.
We must assume as an axiom that it means failed To Hit rolls, as all the other rules we are referencing speak of only rerolling failed To Hit rolls.
demonstrably not always true. OM makes you reroll successful To Hit rolls and does indeed count as rerolling To Hit. So not all rerolls are a result of failed To Hit rolls.
Almost every base rule has exceptions...
Re-rolling hits on OM is one of these exceptions to the base rule.
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Post by: Abandon
DeathReaper wrote: Abandon wrote:DeathReaper wrote:he rules are written on the basis that needing a re-roll is because you missed as evident in prescience, Twin Linked BS6+ etc...
Lord Krungharr wrote:The Blast Weapons and Re-rolls rule does not mention rerolling failed To Hit rolls, it just mentions rerolling To Hit rolls.
We must assume as an axiom that it means failed To Hit rolls, as all the other rules we are referencing speak of only rerolling failed To Hit rolls.
demonstrably not always true. OM makes you reroll successful To Hit rolls and does indeed count as rerolling To Hit. So not all rerolls are a result of failed To Hit rolls.
Almost every base rule has exceptions...
Re-rolling hits on OM is one of these exceptions to the base rule.
I'm sure you can quote me the base rule to which this is an exception that states your case that all To Hit rerolls are only referring to rerolling misses? Or was that just something you made from a string of other statements that did not actually state that at all?
Please tell us where this rule can be found.
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Post by: DeathReaper
I already stated it, in this very thread...
The rules are written on the basis that needing a re-roll is because you missed. Twin Linked and Prescience confirm this.
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Post by: Abandon
DeathReaper wrote:I already stated it, in this very thread...
The rules are written on the basis that needing a re-roll is because you missed. Twin Linked and Prescience confirm this.
Actually you did not. You stated that very same assumption citing abilities that allow you to reroll if you miss as proof that all rerolls assume only misses count for their effects. I showed that was incorrect. In any case I'd like to add that this unwritten basis theory is fairly ridiculous. This is a permissive rule set, if they do not add it in we cannot account for it. You can assume the rules are written on some basis or another all you want but that's also called making things up.
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Post by: FlingitNow
So Abandon you believe that if you have access to a reroll conditionally you get a reroll on the scatter whether or not those conditions are met? Is that correct?
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Post by: nosferatu1001
Crimson wrote:
No. Like Stealth (ruins) is not same as Stealth and Stormbolter is not same as Bolter.
Wrong. Again
the set of events "reroll to hit" contains within it the events {"reroll to hit (of a 1)", "reroll to hit (of a 2)", ...., "reroll to hit (of a 6)"}
Asked "do i get a reroll to hit if I reroll to hit all 1s" you are 100% correct in answering "Yes"
Same way if I move 5", I can answer the question "have I moved up to 6"?" with "yes"
You just fail to read a set of events as a set, instead making up a rule that "reroll to hit" ACTUALLY means "reroll (all failed) to hit", and then pretend you are making an "intent" argument when asked to provide support.
Crimson wrote:Or maybe it is, but there is actually nothing in the rules that would allow us to conclude either way. (Luckily, there are things that let us conclude the intent, which works for those of us who actually intend to play the game.)
Wrong, as proven over and over to you. Your failure to listen and comprehend doesnt make something unclear.
If I reroll 1s on my to-hit do I have the ability to reroll to-hit? YES.
100% unarguable fact.
Oh, and we have something written in non-rules section by a company what cannot even write the rules sections without error, in a section known for getting rules wrong (from illegal options on models, to illegal army lists, etc) - that isnt even about the rule in question and you are holding that up as "intent"?
Only by those unable to understand sets.
It isnt arbitrary when it is backed up by, you know, rules. Your position IS entirely arbitrary, as proven
Your insults and denigrations to others is quite appalling.
Crimson wrote: and others need to show rules quotes that prove you wrong, while you actually cannot prove your original assumption right either.
Again, your failure to comprehend basis sets doesnt mean I havent proven my case. It does mean you have a failure in understanding of a basic concept.
Crimson wrote:That's what unclear rules are. If there was a clear way to prove it either way, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
Really, so something that is a known fact is never debated? Have you met real life people, ever? A genuine query. People argue about known facts all the time, because one side often has a critical misunderstanding - which is what you have here
Having a reroll to-hit of 1s IS having the abilty to reroll your to hit rolls. Fact. Your failure to understand that does not make it less true, or unclear, or whatever sophistry you will next try to claim is your argument to avoid having to admit your position is untenable.
Crimson wrote:That's why pure RAW positions are stupid. Platonic clear RAW does not exist, some rules just are unclear or nonsensical as written.
I agree some make no sense. However this is not one of them
You declaring something unclear, despite the clear rules pointing otherwise, does not make it so. You can houserule whatever you like, however trying to claim a requirement to do so "because the rules are unclear" is disingenuous.
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Post by: Crimson
nosferatu1001 wrote:
You just fail to read a set of events as a set, instead making up a rule that "reroll to hit" ACTUALLY means "reroll (all failed) to hit", and then pretend you are making an "intent" argument when asked to provide support.
And Stealth (ruins) is subset of Stealth; still, having Stealth (ruins) is not same as having Stealth.
Oh, and we have something written in non-rules section by a company what cannot even write the rules sections without error, in a section known for getting rules wrong (from illegal options on models, to illegal army lists, etc) - that isnt even about the rule in question and you are holding that up as "intent"?
Over your assertions? Absolutely.
I am certain that if and when this gets an FAQ it will be similar to the Spirit Mark ruling.
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Post by: nosferatu1001
Except your false comparison is just that - false
You have such an item as "stealth", that is a discrete entity.
You do not have such a discrete entity as "reroll to-hit" - as you yourself has agreed, by making up the rule that "reroll to-hit" instead means "reroll (all failed) to-hit"
Stop creating strawman arguments, please. Stop pretending that a clear rule (do you have the ability to reroll your to hit rolls? Then you reroll scatter) is anything less than sparklingly clear.
They arent assertions when they are backed by rules. Your failed "intent" argument that it means "all failed" remains an assertion, with no merit.
Thank you for conceding that your "unclear rule" assertion is exactly that - your assertion. One that isnt linked to reality.
Also - your selective quoting is fun, it REALLY makes your argument that much more persuasive, when you fail to rebut the elemtns which prove you to be incorrect. I highly recommend that you continue to do so.
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Post by: DeathReaper
Abandon wrote: DeathReaper wrote:I already stated it, in this very thread...
The rules are written on the basis that needing a re-roll is because you missed. Twin Linked and Prescience confirm this.
Actually you did not. You stated that very same assumption citing abilities that allow you to reroll if you miss as proof that all rerolls assume only misses count for their effects. I showed that was incorrect. In any case I'd like to add that this unwritten basis theory is fairly ridiculous. This is a permissive rule set, if they do not add it in we cannot account for it. You can assume the rules are written on some basis or another all you want but that's also called making things up.
If 5 rules are written one way, and 1 is written in reverse, which rule is the exception? (Hint, the 1 rule that is opposite of the 5 others is the exception...)
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Post by: Farseer Faenyin
This situation seems to stem simply from where you start your logic in the first place:
If you start your logic from the USR side, the rules clearly state you cannot make the reroll.
If you begin your logic from the Blast side, the rules clearly state you can make the reroll.
Now THIS is a funny predicament. I would honestly play it(as I do any heavily debated rule like this) in the manner that is the least powerful. In that Spirit Mark, and Prefered Enemy, do not allow rerolls to scattering blast weapons.
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Post by: sirlynchmob
nosferatu1001 wrote:
If I reroll 1s on my to-hit do I have the ability to reroll to-hit? YES.
100% unarguable fact.
come on Nos, lets see someone arguing for PE always allowing rerolls to scatter dice answer the question about ammo runts.
They grant they ability to reroll, so does blast allow the reroll without "removing" the ammo runt?
A model with an ammo runt is allowed to reroll one to hit roll .....
So blast only asks "does the model have the abilitiy to reroll" the answer with the runts is yes. So as long as there is a runt you can use the blast rule to reroll every turn. Right?
If you answer yes here, then I'll believe this is how you think the rules should be read.
If you answer no, then you are agreeing that rerolls that are conditional. And if you need to meet the criteria to gain the reroll, then you can not use PE, as you never get the 1's required to gain the reroll. And the fact is actually arguable.
If you can't meet the criteria to gain a reroll, then you don't have a reroll.
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Post by: Fragile
If I reroll 1s on my to-hit do I have the ability to reroll to-hit? YES.
100% unarguable fact.
Not if you roll a 2.
Your insults and denigrations to others is quite appalling.
Seriously.... from the person calling people "Liar" in an online argument..
This is a failed argument. You cannot fail a To Hit roll with scatter either as you make no To Hit roll. Obviously a misreading of the rule.
Yet, you cannot dispute it other than to say its a "misreading".
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Post by: rigeld2
Fragile wrote:This is a failed argument. You cannot fail a To Hit roll with scatter either as you make no To Hit roll. Obviously a misreading of the rule.
Yet, you cannot dispute it other than to say its a "misreading".
You really should clarify whose posts you're quoting, especially when you quote 2 different people in one post.
And are you actually going to argue that rolling scatter dice is a roll to hit? I can dispute that all day long.
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Post by: Abandon
FlingitNow wrote:So Abandon you believe that if you have access to a reroll conditionally you get a reroll on the scatter whether or not those conditions are met? Is that correct?
Absolutely. It is both a valid reading of the rule and the only way it will make sense as all known rerolls are conditional.
DeathReaper wrote: Abandon wrote: DeathReaper wrote:I already stated it, in this very thread...
The rules are written on the basis that needing a re-roll is because you missed. Twin Linked and Prescience confirm this.
Actually you did not. You stated that very same assumption citing abilities that allow you to reroll if you miss as proof that all rerolls assume only misses count for their effects. I showed that was incorrect. In any case I'd like to add that this unwritten basis theory is fairly ridiculous. This is a permissive rule set, if they do not add it in we cannot account for it. You can assume the rules are written on some basis or another all you want but that's also called making things up.
If 5 rules are written one way, and 1 is written in reverse, which rule is the exception? (Hint, the 1 rule that is opposite of the 5 others is the exception...)
Yes, their are several rules that allow you to reroll failures and at least one that allows you(makes you) to reroll successes. That is not called an exception. That is just a different rule with absolutely zero conflict and hence no need for an exception to be made. If you could point to this unwritten rule that says all rerolls are just rerolling failures, then you could call it such but until then, it just not the case and furthermore you have no case to present as a logical argument.
Fragile wrote:
This is a failed argument. You cannot fail a To Hit roll with scatter either as you make no To Hit roll. Obviously a misreading of the rule.
Yet, you cannot dispute it other than to say its a "misreading".
If that is all you got out of what I said, I believe I have found the source of the problem you are having grasping the relevant concepts.
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Post by: nosferatu1001
Fragile wrote:If I reroll 1s on my to-hit do I have the ability to reroll to-hit? YES.
100% unarguable fact.
Not if you roll a 2.
Yet the actual rule, the one you seem to have a hard time understanding, doesnt make any requirement on you to ALWAYS be able to reroll. At least, none you have been able to find, despite being asked. Found anything yet, anything at all? The continued lack of a rules argument from you does mean you are advocating a houserule, otherwise you are violating the tenets...again.
Your insults and denigrations to others is quite appalling.
Seriously.... from the person calling people "Liar" in an online argument..
When someone lies, stating that whether online or not is appropriate.
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Post by: Crimson
nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yet the actual rule, the one you seem to have a hard time understanding, doesnt make any requirement on you to ALWAYS be able to reroll. At least, none you have been able to find, despite being asked. Found anything yet, anything at all? The continued lack of a rules argument from you does mean you are advocating a houserule, otherwise you are violating the tenets...again.
The rule also doesn't say 'if the model has the ability to re-roll SOME of its rolls to hit." That's what you seem to assume it is saying.
When someone lies, stating that whether online or not is appropriate.
Except that was you failing at reading and making baseless accusations. Luckily, I'm not easily offended so I let that pass.
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Post by: DeathReaper
Abandon wrote:Yes, their are several rules that allow you to reroll failures and at least one that allows you(makes you) to reroll successes. .
It is the same as Characteristic values, they work a certain way (Higher is better) But there is an exception, which are Save Values, which are written in reverse. One way is the baseline rules and the other is the exception. With re-rolls one of these things is not like the other and as such is the exception to the base.
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Post by: Abandon
DeathReaper wrote: Abandon wrote:Yes, their are several rules that allow you to reroll failures and at least one that allows you(makes you) to reroll successes. .
It is the same as Characteristic values, they work a certain way (Higher is better) But there is an exception, which are Save Values, which are written in reverse.
One way is the baseline rules and the other is the exception.
With re-rolls one of these things is not like the other and as such is the exception to the base.
Characteristic tests are actually stated to be made in a specific way with a noted exception for armor saves. Their is no such supporting text for your argument. In fact a reroll is clearly defined on page 5 of the BRB as simply rerollong the dice regardless of the result or the source of the reroll. This makes your claim at the least a baseless assumption and at most a complete fabrication.
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Post by: DeathReaper
Abandon wrote: DeathReaper wrote: Abandon wrote:Yes, their are several rules that allow you to reroll failures and at least one that allows you(makes you) to reroll successes. .
It is the same as Characteristic values, they work a certain way (Higher is better) But there is an exception, which are Save Values, which are written in reverse.
One way is the baseline rules and the other is the exception.
With re-rolls one of these things is not like the other and as such is the exception to the base.
Characteristic tests are actually stated to be made in a specific way with a noted exception for armor saves. Their is no such supporting text for your argument. In fact a reroll is clearly defined on page 5 of the BRB as simply rerollong the dice regardless of the result or the source of the reroll. This makes your claim at the least a baseless assumption and at most a complete fabrication.
Only if you ignore how the rules are written.
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Post by: FlingitNow
Absolutely. It is both a valid reading of the rule and the only way it will make sense as all known rerolls are conditional
Awesome so for any blast weapon in an Eldar army under the following conditions you get a reroll:
1) you have a Farseer in your army
2) he has either guide or prescience (or both)
3) he casts that power successfully
4) he targets the relevant unit
5) that unit rolls to hit and misses
Given that we know that we don't need conditions 1-5 to be met I can ALWAYS reroll all blast weapons in an Eldar army regardless of whether I have a Farseer in my list.
Orks with ammo runts can likewise reroll every turn without ever using the runt. And in deed any army with access to divination or a battle brother with divination can reroll blasts all the time. Death wing terminators can use PE ( CSM) to reroll against Necrons... etc etc etc.
Abandon I really don't see many people agreeing with you and Nos that this is how the rules work.
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Post by: nosferatu1001
Crimson wrote:nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yet the actual rule, the one you seem to have a hard time understanding, doesnt make any requirement on you to ALWAYS be able to reroll. At least, none you have been able to find, despite being asked. Found anything yet, anything at all? The continued lack of a rules argument from you does mean you are advocating a houserule, otherwise you are violating the tenets...again.
The rule also doesn't say 'if the model has the ability to re-roll SOME of its rolls to hit." That's what you seem to assume it is saying.
Nope, not at all. that is not what I am claiming the rule says.
Nice strawman though. Any more fallacies you want to add in?
Again: rerolling *some* rolls to-hit fulfils the requirement of having the ability to reroll your to-hit rolls. This is fact. If you wish to post further on this topic, then following the tenets would be wonderful - in otherwords, actually prove your case that this is unclear. It would be wonderful if you actually did this for once this thread.
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Post by: Abandon
FlingitNow wrote:Absolutely. It is both a valid reading of the rule and the only way it will make sense as all known rerolls are conditional
Awesome so for any blast weapon in an Eldar army under the following conditions you get a reroll:
1) you have a Farseer in your army
2) he has either guide or prescience (or both)
3) he casts that power successfully
4) he targets the relevant unit
5) that unit rolls to hit and misses
Given that we know that we don't need conditions 1-5 to be met I can ALWAYS reroll all blast weapons in an Eldar army regardless of whether I have a Farseer in my list.
Orks with ammo runts can likewise reroll every turn without ever using the runt. And in deed any army with access to divination or a battle brother with divination can reroll blasts all the time. Death wing terminators can use PE ( CSM) to reroll against Necrons... etc etc etc.
Abandon I really don't see many people agreeing with you and Nos that this is how the rules work.
That is incorrect as I have pointed out. The model must have the ability to reroll To Hit rolls in order to reroll scatter per the Blast rules. Are you arguing just to argue at this point because this has been dis-proven already.
"If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast weapon, the player must reroll both the scatter dice and the 2D6."
It must be the model that has the rule, not that some other unit in your army that might be able to give it to him at some point. Unless the Farseer uses the power on the unit the model does not have any reroll ability (unless it has on from some other source)
There is a large difference between having an ability that allows a reroll and having the possibility of receiving a an ability that allows a reroll. You are making a giant leap in that regard.
Do your thoughts on popular opinion count for something here? Perhaps you should concern yourself more with what the book actually says.
1. A reroll is anytime you reroll the die for the same test. Page 5 BRB
2. Every known reroll is conditional. TL rerolls on a miss, OM rerolls on a 6, PE rerolls on a 1, etc
3. For the rule to preform any function at all conditional rerolls must be counted. Otherwise the rule would not do anything and I think we can all agree it was intended to have an effect in some way.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DeathReaper wrote: Abandon wrote: DeathReaper wrote: Abandon wrote:Yes, their are several rules that allow you to reroll failures and at least one that allows you(makes you) to reroll successes. .
It is the same as Characteristic values, they work a certain way (Higher is better) But there is an exception, which are Save Values, which are written in reverse.
One way is the baseline rules and the other is the exception.
With re-rolls one of these things is not like the other and as such is the exception to the base.
Characteristic tests are actually stated to be made in a specific way with a noted exception for armor saves. Their is no such supporting text for your argument. In fact a reroll is clearly defined on page 5 of the BRB as simply rerollong the dice regardless of the result or the source of the reroll. This makes your claim at the least a baseless assumption and at most a complete fabrication.
Only if you ignore how the rules are written.
Answer this. How does the BRB define a reroll? Does it say Rerolling failures? No. Please actually read the rules for rerolls on page 5 before commenting again.
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Post by: Crimson
nosferatu1001 wrote:
Again: rerolling *some* rolls to-hit fulfils the requirement of having the ability to reroll your to-hit rolls. This is fact.
No it doesn't and no it isn't.
If you are by law required to have winter tyres on your car during certain months, can you just have two winter tyres and two regular tyres? After all, then you have some winter tyres on your car.
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Post by: rigeld2
If the requirement is to have winter tires on, you've met the requirement.
If the requirement is to have a specific number of tires on, you need to meet that more specific requirement.
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Post by: Crimson
rigeld2 wrote:If the requirement is to have winter tires on, you've met the requirement.
If the requirement is to have a specific number of tires on, you need to meet that more specific requirement.
At least in Finland you'd get a fine with that interpretation (yes, I checked the actual law.) I'd hazard to guess it is the same thing in most countries with such laws.
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Post by: lordwellingstone
Been reading this thread for a while, and all it has really told me is GW needs to hire better writers.
This has never actually come up in a game before for me, probably because nobody thought to do it. However if it did, I'd allow it. It's a powerful and neat trick, and the area around it is grey enough for me to accept that it could swing either way. I mean, it's just plastic soldiers after all. And if my group were to start playing this way we'd all adapt with counter-tactics.
I understand this is a rules forum, but it looks like this is one of those famous 40k "whoops we did not think of that." situations.
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Post by: rigeld2
Crimson wrote:rigeld2 wrote:If the requirement is to have winter tires on, you've met the requirement.
If the requirement is to have a specific number of tires on, you need to meet that more specific requirement.
At least in Finland you'd get a fine with that interpretation (yes, I checked the actual law.) I'd hazard to guess it is the same thing in most countries with such laws.
So the law is actually that you need to have all 4 tires. It's like having a specific statement forms a specific requirement. Absent a specific require,ent, you're inserting your own assumptions.
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Post by: Crimson
The law says that you must have winter tyres on such and such vehicles at such and such times. It says nothing about the number of the tyres.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
lordwellingstone wrote:Been reading this thread for a while, and all it has really told me is GW needs to hire better writers.
This has never actually come up in a game before for me, probably because nobody thought to do it. However if it did, I'd allow it. It's a powerful and neat trick, and the area around it is grey enough for me to accept that it could swing either way. I mean, it's just plastic soldiers after all. And if my group were to start playing this way we'd all adapt with counter-tactics.
I understand this is a rules forum, but it looks like this is one of those famous 40k "whoops we did not think of that." situations.
It is. However GW has said that a similar mechanic, Spirit Mark (that let's you re-roll ones) does not apply to blasts. Also, if any re-roll would suffice, Objuration Mechanicum, a malediction that is supposed to make your enemy's shooting worse would actually make blast weapons more accurate! For these reasons it is clear to me what the intent is.
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Post by: rigeld2
Crimson wrote:The law says that you must have winter tyres on such and such vehicles at such and such times. It says nothing about the number of the tyres.
Then it could be challenged (in the us and likely England) if someone cared about it. It would cost more than the cost of the ticket though.
And you're bringing up irrelevant issues - hell, it could be a matter of different languages leading to different expectations.
If all you tell me is to buy apples and I buy 2 but you meant 10, I've accomplished the task you set forth.
Words mean things. It's a fact that if I can reroll 1s I have a reroll available.
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Post by: Crimson
Rigeld, yes it is irrelevant, but so is this whole discussion. We already know how the rule is supposed to work. Only reason for it to be FAQed differently that Spirit Mark is that GW feths up (which is a realistic possibility but not something to base rulings on.)
If we know how one rule works, we can assume that other rules that are worded exactly the same way work in the same way, unless we are told otherwise.
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Post by: rigeld2
I couldn't care less how they eventually rule it.
I know (and have shown) how the rules are actually written. Nos and I are arguing RAW. When you disagree and post an argument responding to one of us, you're also arguing RAW. I get that you started out posting about intent - I really do. But when you continue to argue with Nos and I (who have said multiple times we're not discussing intent), get shown how the rules actually work, and then fall back on "oh, but this is how they intended it" its more than a little frustrating and IMO impolite.
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Post by: Happyjew
Isn't one of the rules (either for the site or YMDC forum) not to argue RAI vs RAW?
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Post by: Crimson
rigeld2 wrote:I couldn't care less how they eventually rule it.
I know (and have shown) how the rules are actually written. Nos and I are arguing RAW. When you disagree and post an argument responding to one of us, you're also arguing RAW. I get that you started out posting about intent - I really do. But when you continue to argue with Nos and I (who have said multiple times we're not discussing intent), get shown how the rules actually work, and then fall back on "oh, but this is how they intended it" its more than a little frustrating and IMO impolite.
My position on RAW is that the rule is properly unclear and true RAW on it doesn't exits. My position on RAI is that PE doesn't allow re-roll blasts. Are we clear?
Out of curiosity, what is you position on Spirit Mark then?
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Post by: rigeld2
Not having the relevant books for the Spirit Mark I can't form an opinion on it.
How is the RAW unclear? Does a mode, with PE have a reroll to hit? It's a yes or no question.
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Post by: Crimson
Happyjew wrote:Isn't one of the rules (either for the site or YMDC forum) not to argue RAI vs RAW?
No, I don't think so. You shouldn't argue HWYP against RAW or vice versa, but that's different. I don't think that pure platonic RAW can ever exist, at least as long as rules are not written as logical syntax. You have to consider RAI to arrive at correct interpretation.
Here is a good post by Yakface on RAW which describes the situation rather well.
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Post by: rigeld2
And while I respect yakface, I disagree with his overall position.
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Post by: Happyjew
Crimson wrote: Happyjew wrote:Isn't one of the rules (either for the site or YMDC forum) not to argue RAI vs RAW?
No, I don't think so. You shouldn't argue HWYP against RAW or vice versa, but that's different. I don't think that pure platonic RAW can ever exist, at least as long as rules are not written as logical syntax. You have to consider RAI to arrive at correct interpretation.
Here is a good post by Yakface on RAW which describes the situation rather well.
Yeah I was thinking RAW v HYWPI. I think, however, that is basically what is going on here. Side A says the rule says this. Side B says the writers intended that. Unfortunately, unless somebody is a GW writer (and I have no idea how they would be able to prove it on an anonymous forum) you do not know what their intent is. It could very well be that the intent is that only Twin-linked or Prescience/Guide is the only way to gain a re-roll for blasts. If so, then GW dropped the ba and needs to clarify via FAQ.
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Post by: Abandon
Happyjew wrote: Crimson wrote: Happyjew wrote:Isn't one of the rules (either for the site or YMDC forum) not to argue RAI vs RAW?
No, I don't think so. You shouldn't argue HWYP against RAW or vice versa, but that's different. I don't think that pure platonic RAW can ever exist, at least as long as rules are not written as logical syntax. You have to consider RAI to arrive at correct interpretation.
Here is a good post by Yakface on RAW which describes the situation rather well.
Yeah I was thinking RAW v HYWPI. I think, however, that is basically what is going on here. Side A says the rule says this. Side B says the writers intended that. Unfortunately, unless somebody is a GW writer (and I have no idea how they would be able to prove it on an anonymous forum) you do not know what their intent is. It could very well be that the intent is that only Twin-linked or Prescience/Guide is the only way to gain a re-roll for blasts. If so, then GW dropped the ba and needs to clarify via FAQ.
Agreed. Technically Scything Talons give a unit a 'reroll To Hit' and though I'm certain that falls outside of the intended qualification it is not specific to ranged To Hit rerolls in the written text making RAW rather ridiculous in this case and I'd highly recommend actually using the best RAI(Edit: or HYWPI) you can get your group to consent to. Might want to add it to the list of things to ask TOs about as well since I highly doubt anyone's gonna let you get away with rerolling scatter because you can reroll To Hit rolls in CC. On second though, just assume that's not gonna fly... but it's in RAW lol
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Post by: ClassicCarraway
Happyjew wrote: Crimson wrote: Happyjew wrote:Isn't one of the rules (either for the site or YMDC forum) not to argue RAI vs RAW?
No, I don't think so. You shouldn't argue HWYP against RAW or vice versa, but that's different. I don't think that pure platonic RAW can ever exist, at least as long as rules are not written as logical syntax. You have to consider RAI to arrive at correct interpretation.
Here is a good post by Yakface on RAW which describes the situation rather well.
Yeah I was thinking RAW v HYWPI. I think, however, that is basically what is going on here. Side A says the rule says this. Side B says the writers intended that. Unfortunately, unless somebody is a GW writer (and I have no idea how they would be able to prove it on an anonymous forum) you do not know what their intent is. It could very well be that the intent is that only Twin-linked or Prescience/Guide is the only way to gain a re-roll for blasts. If so, then GW dropped the ba and needs to clarify via FAQ.
Well, we do have an interpretation of a rule that works exactly the same as PE in terms of the relevant pieces from a GW writer, but that's apparently not good enough for the pro-scatter camp because its in a codex strategy section and not a FAQ.
The problem with the pure RAW approach is that if you are playing the game purely RAW with no RAI judgment, the game breaks almost immediately.
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Post by: rigeld2
Yes, there are cases where the game breaks.
This isn't one of them. Stop with that "argument".
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Post by: Mywik
ClassicCarraway wrote:
The problem with the pure RAW approach is that if you are playing the game purely RAW with no RAI judgment, the game breaks almost immediately.
The problem with RAI arguments is that we cant know the intent but We have the RAW available and printed in our hands. Therefor we should always use the RAW and if there are conflicts (other than here because there are none) we should wait for a FAQ and until then make a local HIWPI Rule. The debates on this forum help my player group a lot to identify and house rule the critical problems before stepping on them in a game.
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Post by: HawaiiMatt
rigeld2 wrote:Not having the relevant books for the Spirit Mark I can't form an opinion on it.
How is the RAW unclear? Does a mode, with PE have a reroll to hit? It's a yes or no question.
Does a model with PE have a reroll to hit and chooses to do so? It's a Yes or No Question.
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Post by: Baktru
Scything Talons specifically state that they only apply in Close Combat.
So no, my Warrior with a Venom Cannon and a set of Scything Talons doesn't get to re-roll when he fires the Cannon.
However when he is within 6" of the Old Adversary Hive Tyrant, he does. As has been correctly argued by Rigeld and some others.
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Post by: nosferatu1001
Crimson wrote:rigeld2 wrote:I couldn't care less how they eventually rule it.
I know (and have shown) how the rules are actually written. Nos and I are arguing RAW. When you disagree and post an argument responding to one of us, you're also arguing RAW. I get that you started out posting about intent - I really do. But when you continue to argue with Nos and I (who have said multiple times we're not discussing intent), get shown how the rules actually work, and then fall back on "oh, but this is how they intended it" its more than a little frustrating and IMO impolite.
My position on RAW is that the rule is properly unclear and true RAW on it doesn't exits. My position on RAI is that PE doesn't allow re-roll blasts. Are we clear?
Out of curiosity, what is you position on Spirit Mark then?
Yes, and your position on RAW has been proven incorrect -the RAW is 100% clear, because the set of all to-hit rerolls is satisfied by having a reroll of 1s to hit. This is indisputable, as you have yet to actually prove otherwise - just asserted it, breaking the tenets of the forum repeatedly.
If I reroll 1s, I HAVE an ability to reroll to hit. Fact. Stop stating otherwise, as that is a strict lie.
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Post by: FlingitNow
That is incorrect as I have pointed out. The model must have the ability to reroll To Hit rolls in order to reroll scatter per the Blast rules. Are you arguing just to argue at this point because this has been dis-proven already.
"If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast weapon, the player must reroll both the scatter dice and the 2D6."
It must be the model that has the rule, not that some other unit in your army that might be able to give it to him at some point. Unless the Farseer uses the power on the unit the model does not have any reroll ability (unless it has on from some other source)
There is a large difference between having an ability that allows a reroll and having the possibility of receiving a an ability that allows a reroll. You are making a giant leap in that regard.
So are you saying a Fire Prism model with prescience cast on it doesn't have the ability to reroll? If I cast prescience on a unit the model(s) in that unit, would be able to reroll to hit rolls if they miss with a to hit roll.
Yes or no?
These are conditions for that model to get a reroll. You stated that ALL conditions for a reroll are irrelevant. Why are you saying some conditions are OK and others are not. You are now making the same argument as the people you are disagreeing with.
The RaW here has two correct results:
1) In order to get the reroll on the blasts you must have an unconditional reroll. If so the rule essentially does nothing as no one currently has that (though when written Warp Time would have applied).
2) In order to get the reroll on the blasts you must have a confitional reroll and you get that reroll regardless of whether the conditions are met.
If you are going by the later I don't see how you could state my Fire Prism doesn't get to reroll the scatter just because I haven't met the conditions of failing a to hit roll, having prescience cast on me, having my Farseer have the prescience power or having a Farseer in my army.
Why are some conditions OK and others not?
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Post by: rigeld2
HawaiiMatt wrote:rigeld2 wrote:Not having the relevant books for the Spirit Mark I can't form an opinion on it.
How is the RAW unclear? Does a mode, with PE have a reroll to hit? It's a yes or no question.
Does a model with PE have a reroll to hit and chooses to do so? It's a Yes or No Question.
Yes, he can choose to re-roll scatter. Since that's where the choice comes in.
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Post by: DeathReaper
Abandon wrote:Answer this. How does the BRB define a reroll? Does it say Rerolling failures? No. Please actually read the rules for rerolls on page 5 before commenting again.
Please actually understand the context in which the rules are written before commenting again.
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Post by: HawaiiMatt
rigeld2 wrote:HawaiiMatt wrote:rigeld2 wrote:Not having the relevant books for the Spirit Mark I can't form an opinion on it.
How is the RAW unclear? Does a mode, with PE have a reroll to hit? It's a yes or no question.
Does a model with PE have a reroll to hit and chooses to do so? It's a Yes or No Question.
Yes, he can choose to re-roll scatter. Since that's where the choice comes in.
The Rule.
If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast weapon, the player must re-roll both the scatter dice and the 2D6.
The Rule as you are stating it.
If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit, and chooses to do so after firing a Blast weapon, the player must re-roll both the scatter dice and the 2D6.
The lack of comma between "To Hit" and the "and chooses", makes the choosing to re-roll a condition of the ability to Re-Roll To Hit.
Adding the comma, makes the chooses to hit a choice allowing you to not re-roll if you don't want to.
With the first reading, you have very few abilities that can re-roll blasts.
With the 2nd reading, you have stupidity like the ammo-runt never being used up, IG getting re-rolls even if orders aren't issued, farseer craziness and so on.
IMO, the Blast Weapons and Re-Rolls rule isn't meant to tell use when/if we can re-rolls, but rather that you must re-roll all or nothing (the scatter die AND distance dice).
This is why it needs a FAQ.
-Matt
61964
Post by: Fragile
rigeld2 wrote:HawaiiMatt wrote:rigeld2 wrote:Not having the relevant books for the Spirit Mark I can't form an opinion on it.
How is the RAW unclear? Does a mode, with PE have a reroll to hit? It's a yes or no question.
Does a model with PE have a reroll to hit and chooses to do so? It's a Yes or No Question.
Yes, he can choose to re-roll scatter. Since that's where the choice comes in.
And yet there is no choice to reroll, because you can only reroll 1's and you have not rolled any.
Automatically Appended Next Post: HawaiiMatt wrote:IMO, the Blast Weapons and Re-Rolls rule isn't meant to tell use when/if we can re-rolls, but rather that you must re-roll all or nothing (the scatter die AND distance dice).
This is why it needs a FAQ.
-Matt
Overall, I agree with this.
52446
Post by: Abandon
Baktru wrote:Scything Talons specifically state that they only apply in Close Combat.
So no, my Warrior with a Venom Cannon and a set of Scything Talons doesn't get to re-roll when he fires the Cannon.
However when he is within 6" of the Old Adversary Hive Tyrant, he does. As has been correctly argued by Rigeld and some others.
Does the 'model have the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit' ? does it matter if that ability is conditional on misses, 1s, CC, etc?
FlingitNow wrote:That is incorrect as I have pointed out. The model must have the ability to reroll To Hit rolls in order to reroll scatter per the Blast rules. Are you arguing just to argue at this point because this has been dis-proven already.
"If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast weapon, the player must reroll both the scatter dice and the 2D6."
It must be the model that has the rule, not that some other unit in your army that might be able to give it to him at some point. Unless the Farseer uses the power on the unit the model does not have any reroll ability (unless it has on from some other source)
There is a large difference between having an ability that allows a reroll and having the possibility of receiving a an ability that allows a reroll. You are making a giant leap in that regard.
So are you saying a Fire Prism model with prescience cast on it doesn't have the ability to reroll? If I cast prescience on a unit the model(s) in that unit, would be able to reroll to hit rolls if they miss with a to hit roll.
Yes or no?
These are conditions for that model to get a reroll. You stated that ALL conditions for a reroll are irrelevant. Why are you saying some conditions are OK and others are not. You are now making the same argument as the people you are disagreeing with.
The RaW here has two correct results:
1) In order to get the reroll on the blasts you must have an unconditional reroll. If so the rule essentially does nothing as no one currently has that (though when written Warp Time would have applied).
2) In order to get the reroll on the blasts you must have a confitional reroll and you get that reroll regardless of whether the conditions are met.
If you are going by the later I don't see how you could state my Fire Prism doesn't get to reroll the scatter just because I haven't met the conditions of failing a to hit roll, having prescience cast on me, having my Farseer have the prescience power or having a Farseer in my army.
Why are some conditions OK and others not?
You are asserting that I am making an argument that I have not which is 'if the model could have a reroll under any conditions' . I said it does not matter that the models ability is conditional. The Blast rule requires the model has the ability, not that it could possibly have it at some undetermined time.
DeathReaper wrote: Abandon wrote:Answer this. How does the BRB define a reroll? Does it say Rerolling failures? No. Please actually read the rules for rerolls on page 5 before commenting again.
Please actually understand the context in which the rules are written before commenting again.
So you read the rules for rerolls on page 5? What did they say a reroll was?
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Post by: DeathReaper
Abandon wrote:Baktru wrote:Scything Talons specifically state that they only apply in Close Combat.
So no, my Warrior with a Venom Cannon and a set of Scything Talons doesn't get to re-roll when he fires the Cannon.
However when he is within 6" of the Old Adversary Hive Tyrant, he does. As has been correctly argued by Rigeld and some others.
Does the 'model have the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit' ? does it matter if that ability is conditional on misses, 1s, CC, etc?
Maybe, did you roll a 1 to hit?
If so they have a re-roll, if not they do not.
Abandon wrote:DeathReaper wrote: Abandon wrote:Answer this. How does the BRB define a reroll? Does it say Rerolling failures? No. Please actually read the rules for rerolls on page 5 before commenting again.
Please actually understand the context in which the rules are written before commenting again.
So you read the rules for rerolls on page 5? What did they say a reroll was?
They tell you how to re-roll, what you can re-roll comes from the context of the twin linked/Prescience/a dozen other rules that tells us that re-roll misses is the base, and one rule to the contrary tells us what is the exception to the rule.
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Post by: rigeld2
HawaiiMatt wrote:rigeld2 wrote:HawaiiMatt wrote:rigeld2 wrote:Not having the relevant books for the Spirit Mark I can't form an opinion on it.
How is the RAW unclear? Does a mode, with PE have a reroll to hit? It's a yes or no question.
Does a model with PE have a reroll to hit and chooses to do so? It's a Yes or No Question.
Yes, he can choose to re-roll scatter. Since that's where the choice comes in.
The Rule.
If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast weapon, the player must re-roll both the scatter dice and the 2D6.
The Rule as you are stating it.
If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit, and chooses to do so after firing a Blast weapon, the player must re-roll both the scatter dice and the 2D6.
The lack of comma between "To Hit" and the "and chooses", makes the choosing to re-roll a condition of the ability to Re-Roll To Hit.
Adding the comma, makes the chooses to hit a choice allowing you to not re-roll if you don't want to.
So you're asserting that you must choose to re-roll to hit on when firing a weapon that cannot roll to hit?
And that makes sense to you? The comma does not need to exist there for the "and chooses" to be conditional on the blast weapon.
With the first reading, you have very few abilities that can re-roll blasts.
With the 2nd reading, you have stupidity like the ammo-runt never being used up, IG getting re-rolls even if orders aren't issued, farseer craziness and so on.
No, not true at all. Very near lying but I'm sure you're just misunderstanding.
35241
Post by: HawaiiMatt
rigeld2 wrote:
So you're asserting that you must choose to re-roll to hit on when firing a weapon that cannot roll to hit?
And that makes sense to you? The comma does not need to exist there for the "and chooses" to be conditional on the blast weapon.
Matt wrote:With the first reading, you have very few abilities that can re-roll blasts.
With the 2nd reading, you have stupidity like the ammo-runt never being used up, IG getting re-rolls even if orders aren't issued, farseer craziness and so on.
No, not true at all. Very near lying but I'm sure you're just misunderstanding.
I'm not saying the rule makes sense, I'm saying that's RAW how it's written.
How is your reading not letting in a lot of stupidity to the the rules? (not that my reading makes it work either, as nearly nothing gets to re-roll).
Ammo Runt is in base to base with Shokk Attack Gun, so the Shokk Attack Gun does have a re-roll to hit. Since all that your saying is required is to have the ability to re-roll, I'll not pull the Runt and still get the re-roll under the Blast Rule.
Or your psyker makes me re-roll 6's, and now I can more accurate shots.
My Platoon has a re-roll to hit when I order it to bring it down, so all those... frag grenades are now much more deadly.
Below is How I Would Fix It. Consider this as "proposed rules", and not to be used in the current debate.
IMO, it works a lot better if you treat the roll of the scatter die as the To Hit roll, when firing Blasts. When you don't roll a "Hit", treat it as if you missed, and scatter as per the rules.
Then use then change the statement on blast re-rolls to simply say when you re-roll to hit with blasts, you must re-roll all the dice.
That should clean it up with anything that works when you miss works. Anything that works when you have a trigger (remove grot, pass orders test, etc) works when you complete the trigger action. Anything where you can't complete the trigger action (rolling a 1 with PE, rolling a 6 while psychic maladiction is on you, or having failed your orders test, etc) would mean you don't get a re-roll.
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Post by: Baktru
Abandon wrote:Baktru wrote:Scything Talons specifically state that they only apply in Close Combat.
So no, my Warrior with a Venom Cannon and a set of Scything Talons doesn't get to re-roll when he fires the Cannon.
However when he is within 6" of the Old Adversary Hive Tyrant, he does. As has been correctly argued by Rigeld and some others.
Does the 'model have the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit' ? does it matter if that ability is conditional on misses, 1s, CC, etc?
My Warrior only has an ability to reroll to hit when he is in CC. He's not in CC when he's firing his Venom Cannon. Hence he has no ability to reroll to hit at the time.
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Post by: rigeld2
HawaiiMatt wrote:[Ammo Runt is in base to base with Shokk Attack Gun, so the Shokk Attack Gun does have a re-roll to hit. Since all that your saying is required is to have the ability to re-roll, I'll not pull the Runt and still get the re-roll under the Blast Rule.
I don't have an ork codex to address this well, but the SAG doesn't have a re-roll unless the runt is pulled.
Or your psyker makes me re-roll 6's, and now I can more accurate shots.
Yes, that's correct.
My Platoon has a re-roll to hit when I order it to bring it down, so all those... frag grenades are now much more deadly.
When you give them bring it down, sure. One whole frag grenade. Ooh.
35241
Post by: HawaiiMatt
rigeld2 wrote:HawaiiMatt wrote:[Ammo Runt is in base to base with Shokk Attack Gun, so the Shokk Attack Gun does have a re-roll to hit. Since all that your saying is required is to have the ability to re-roll, I'll not pull the Runt and still get the re-roll under the Blast Rule.
I don't have an ork codex to address this well, but the SAG doesn't have a re-roll unless the runt is pulled.
Or your psyker makes me re-roll 6's, and now I can more accurate shots.
Yes, that's correct.
My Platoon has a re-roll to hit when I order it to bring it down, so all those... frag grenades are now much more deadly.
When you give them bring it down, sure. One whole frag grenade. Ooh.
Could be 11 templates (5 grenade launchers, 5 mortars/frag missiles, 1 thrown grenade).
Correct, the SAG doesn't have a re-roll unless the runt is pulled, and a model with PE doesn't have a re-roll unless you roll a 1 to hit.
What criteria are you using for choosing which requirements are ignored to determine if a model has a re-roll?
What page are those criteria on?
-Matt
47462
Post by: rigeld2
HawaiiMatt wrote:Correct, the SAG doesn't have a re-roll unless the runt is pulled, and a model with PE doesn't have a re-roll unless you roll a 1 to hit.
There's a reroll to hit available on PE.
There's no reroll to hit unless you kill the Runt.
When you're making an argument that makes rules literally useless, you have to use "obvious intent". The rule exists, therefore it's meant to do something. The obvious intent in this case is to allow things with a reroll to hit to work.
PE has a reroll to hit just like Prescience, etc. Ammo Runt doesn't give a reroll unless you kill the Runt.
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Post by: sirlynchmob
rigeld2 wrote:HawaiiMatt wrote:Correct, the SAG doesn't have a re-roll unless the runt is pulled, and a model with PE doesn't have a re-roll unless you roll a 1 to hit.
There's a reroll to hit available on PE.
There's no reroll to hit unless you kill the Runt.
When you're making an argument that makes rules literally useless, you have to use "obvious intent". The rule exists, therefore it's meant to do something. The obvious intent in this case is to allow things with a reroll to hit to work.
PE has a reroll to hit just like Prescience, etc. Ammo Runt doesn't give a reroll unless you kill the Runt.
Wrong again,
The ammo runt does not get removed when you use it's ability. People just remove the runt to signify they used a reroll (but that's not raw) the ammo runt is with the unit/model that bought it for the entire game.
"a model with an ammo runt is allowed to re-roll one to hit roll for a shooting attack, once per game" Nothing about removing it afterwards.
So as long as you bought an ammo runt, you have the ability to reroll right?
Ergo for blasts it meets the criteria and you can reroll the entire game.
50012
Post by: Crimson
rigeld2 wrote:
When you're making an argument that makes rules literally useless, you have to use "obvious intent". The rule exists, therefore it's meant to do something. The obvious intent in this case is to allow things with a reroll to hit to work.
So now intent is good enough for you! Broken rules is a subjective assessment. To me a malediction that should make enemy less accurate making them more accurate is obviously broken.
47462
Post by: rigeld2
Crimson wrote:rigeld2 wrote:
When you're making an argument that makes rules literally useless, you have to use "obvious intent". The rule exists, therefore it's meant to do something. The obvious intent in this case is to allow things with a reroll to hit to work.
So now intent is good enough for you! Broken rules is a subjective assessment. To me a malediction that should make enemy less accurate making them more accurate is obviously broken.
I've explained why intent sometimes matters.
As for ObjMech, I agree that's the likely intent and would be fine playing it that way...
52446
Post by: Abandon
DeathReaper wrote: Abandon wrote:Baktru wrote:Scything Talons specifically state that they only apply in Close Combat.
So no, my Warrior with a Venom Cannon and a set of Scything Talons doesn't get to re-roll when he fires the Cannon.
However when he is within 6" of the Old Adversary Hive Tyrant, he does. As has been correctly argued by Rigeld and some others.
Does the 'model have the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit' ? does it matter if that ability is conditional on misses, 1s, CC, etc?
Maybe, did you roll a 1 to hit?
If so they have a re-roll, if not they do not.
Abandon wrote:DeathReaper wrote: Abandon wrote:Answer this. How does the BRB define a reroll? Does it say Rerolling failures? No. Please actually read the rules for rerolls on page 5 before commenting again.
Please actually understand the context in which the rules are written before commenting again.
So you read the rules for rerolls on page 5? What did they say a reroll was?
They tell you how to re-roll, what you can re-roll comes from the context of the twin linked/Prescience/a dozen other rules that tells us that re-roll misses is the base, and one rule to the contrary tells us what is the exception to the rule.
It's as if the process for rerolling described there is how they define a reroll... unless you know of some other place they define rerolls....
BTW, using these special rules and abilities to define context for special rules/abilities is quite illogical. Unless a rule specifically states how other rules will generally work it is not useful for context for anything but itself.
Baktru wrote: Abandon wrote:Baktru wrote:Scything Talons specifically state that they only apply in Close Combat.
So no, my Warrior with a Venom Cannon and a set of Scything Talons doesn't get to re-roll when he fires the Cannon.
However when he is within 6" of the Old Adversary Hive Tyrant, he does. As has been correctly argued by Rigeld and some others.
Does the 'model have the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit' ? does it matter if that ability is conditional on misses, 1s, CC, etc?
My Warrior only has an ability to reroll to hit when he is in CC. He's not in CC when he's firing his Venom Cannon. Hence he has no ability to reroll to hit at the time.
I don't see where it distinguishes between whether or not the ability is usable at the time. A reroll To Hit is not available in any case (ranged or otherwise) as no roll To Hit is made. It only matters that the model has a ability to reroll a To Hit roll. RAI and HYWPI I completely agree with you though. As I said, to the letter RAW is rather ridiculous in this case.
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Post by: nosferatu1001
Fragile wrote:rigeld2 wrote:HawaiiMatt wrote:rigeld2 wrote:Not having the relevant books for the Spirit Mark I can't form an opinion on it.
How is the RAW unclear? Does a mode, with PE have a reroll to hit? It's a yes or no question.
Does a model with PE have a reroll to hit and chooses to do so? It's a Yes or No Question.
Yes, he can choose to re-roll scatter. Since that's where the choice comes in.
And yet there is no choice to reroll, because you can only reroll 1's and you have not rolled any.
Yet that isnt what the rule actually asks you to do. Again, you are failing to actually read the rules for blasts and rerolls
If I reroll all failed to-hit, according to your "reading" of the rules I would be unable to reroll scatter at all, as I have never rolled a failed to-hit. (I NEVER roll to hit when rolling scatter)
Of course this entirely ignores the rules for blasts, so can be safely ignored as a suggested argument. Do you have an argument based in actual rules yet?
61964
Post by: Fragile
nosferatu1001 wrote:Yet that isnt what the rule actually asks you to do. Again, you are failing to actually read the rules for blasts and rerolls
Perhaps you should reread the Tenets. Not only have I read the rules, I even posted them. And you still have yet to explain how you get a reroll without rolling a 1. Unless you think that Reroll failed to hits = Reroll on 1s. That makes for some interesting rules.
You do not have the "ability" to reroll since you have no 1's, therefore you cannot "choose" to reroll.
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Post by: Happyjew
Fragile wrote:nosferatu1001 wrote:Yet that isnt what the rule actually asks you to do. Again, you are failing to actually read the rules for blasts and rerolls
Perhaps you should reread the Tenets. Not only have I read the rules, I even posted them. And you still have yet to explain how you get a reroll without rolling a 1. Unless you think that Reroll failed to hits = Reroll on 1s. That makes for some interesting rules.
You do not have the "ability" to reroll since you have no 1's, therefore you cannot "choose" to reroll.
And with other abilities you did not miss therefore that whole rule about re-rolling blasts does absolutely nothing. Good job.
22508
Post by: FlingitNow
Happyjew wrote:Fragile wrote:nosferatu1001 wrote:Yet that isnt what the rule actually asks you to do. Again, you are failing to actually read the rules for blasts and rerolls
Perhaps you should reread the Tenets. Not only have I read the rules, I even posted them. And you still have yet to explain how you get a reroll without rolling a 1. Unless you think that Reroll failed to hits = Reroll on 1s. That makes for some interesting rules.
You do not have the "ability" to reroll since you have no 1's, therefore you cannot "choose" to reroll.
And with other abilities you did not miss therefore that whole rule about re-rolling blasts does absolutely nothing. Good job.
Yet this is still valid raw. The other reading results in almost everyone getting to reroll blasts all the time as they can get a reroll under the right conditions....
Which is dumber?
11268
Post by: nosferatu1001
Fragile wrote:nosferatu1001 wrote:Yet that isnt what the rule actually asks you to do. Again, you are failing to actually read the rules for blasts and rerolls
Perhaps you should reread the Tenets. Not only have I read the rules, I even posted them. And you still have yet to explain how you get a reroll without rolling a 1. Unless you think that Reroll failed to hits = Reroll on 1s. That makes for some interesting rules.
You do not have the "ability" to reroll since you have no 1's, therefore you cannot "choose" to reroll.
So you selective quote to avoid answering, again?
You posted them, and have failed to prove that reroll to-hit (not "to hitS") ISNT satisfied by reroll 1s to-hit. As I have proven that the former is satisfied by the latter, your argument is void.
So yes, again I have to ask - given you are told you NEVER roll to hit, does a model with reroll ALL failed to-hit reroll scatter? According to your made up RAW, they dont get to reroll. Will you actually answer this, so if you say yes they dont reroll (so you are at least consistent in failing to read the rules) you can cling to an absurd position, or will you say no and undermine your PE argument?
So, which is it? Another refusal to answer is considered concession of your stance being a houserule.
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Post by: Chris Lysander
This whole argument makes me laugh that it has to still go on myself along with others have repeatedly proven it doesn't work vie the BRB, and yet we are wrong and have to provide citations etc, so tell you what, spacemarines win every battle no matter what because I say so. END OF STORY ( which is exactly what everyone saying PE does for blast weapons on the yes side is doing)
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Post by: rigeld2
Chris Lysander wrote:This whole argument makes me laugh that it has to still go on myself along with others have repeatedly proven it doesn't work vie the BRB, and yet we are wrong and have to provide citations etc, so tell you what, spacemarines win every battle no matter what because I say so. END OF STORY ( which is exactly what everyone saying PE does for blast weapons on the yes side is doing)
Erm... not at all?
Have you proven that PE does not get a reroll? Because the rule sure looks like it does.
74677
Post by: Chris Lysander
ERM... clearly you do IF you met the laid down criteria, you DON'T ROLL to hit YOU CANNOT ROLL the 1 required to gain your reroll, show me where in the rule book it states you can ignore a condition
47462
Post by: rigeld2
Chris Lysander wrote:ERM... clearly you do IF you met the laid down criteria, you DON'T ROLL to hit YOU CANNOT ROLL the 1 required to gain your reroll, show me where in the rule book it states you can ignore a condition
So there isn't a single ability (aside from Twin Link) in the game that allows a reroll then?
If there is one without a condition, please reference it.
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Post by: Chris Lysander
How about instead of making those of us prove the facts we have proven do some home work yourself and start trying to prove your claims
Because this is getting boring of proving the same thing time and time again. If you cannot provide citation stop trying to prove what you want
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Post by: rigeld2
Chris Lysander wrote:How about instead of making those of us prove the facts we have proven do some home work yourself and start trying to prove your claims
I've proven that PE gets a reroll.
Because this is getting boring of proving the same thing time and time again. If you cannot provide citation stop trying to prove what you want
So, by refusing to answer you're agreeing that only Twin Link gets to reroll scatter on Blasts?
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Post by: Baktru
I can't believe this one is STILL going.
If you say hey you never rolled a To-Hit so you didn't roll a 1?
Well pray tell, which ability gives the ability to reroll no matter what?
Because all those abilities that let you reroll misses, won't work here either then. You never rolled a To-Hit so you can't have a miss.
Which would mean that only TL gets to re-roll blasts and the whole rule that we are discussing is null and void as nothing in the WH40K universe satisfies it.
22508
Post by: FlingitNow
When the rule was written Warp Time made you reroll successes and failures.
When the BrB came out nothing had Vector Dancer so that rule did nothing until the Eldar codex came out. Likewise I believe Missile Lock still does nothing as no unit has it (please correct me if I'm wrong). Automatically Appended Next Post: Those arguing for PE granting rerolls means that basically every unit in the game rerolls blasts all the time. Is no one other than Twin linked getting the benefit really dumber than everyone getting to reroll scatter all the time (because your enemy could have Objuration Mechanicum).
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Post by: liturgies of blood
That's a bit of hyperbole there Fling, not every unit has a re-roll to hit.
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Post by: Lungpickle
This could go for hundreds of post, however if you don't roll to hit and don't generate a 1 then NO there's no reroll. That's it simple as it gets.
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