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Thinking of fielding biovores and wondering if preferred enemy would help them at all being it states re-rolls 1, and barrages use blast rule for to hit and they don't roll to hit?

This keeps coming up every time there is a re-roll one and scatter (or Gets Hot).

From the other topics, if you have the option to re-roll, you can re-roll (but only against things that fits all the criteria for PE).

You can reroll the to wound rolls of 1, But it doesn't do annything for hitting.

There is two lines of thoughts on this matter, both opposite interpretations of course.

The first is that the re-rolling of 1 is enough to meet the limitations under Blast Weapons and Rerolls, page 33. The logic is simple, you are given permission to re-roll the dice should any dice show a 1. Therefore, if any of the dice show a 1, you have met the re-roll requirements and can evoke the re-rolling rule exactly as written. This is further supported by certain units named in certain re-roll 1 rules, while only ever being able to fire blast weapons.

The second interpretation is that re-roll of 1's are not enough to meet the limitations on page 33 so you can not evoke the rule. This is based on the logic that re-rolling 1's and re-rolling are two completely different terms. As the blast marker rules do not address re-rolling of 1 it does not give you permission to evoke this rule. Just because two terms are similar they are still not interchangeable, no matter how close the situation, unless the rule gives you permission to use either of them.

I, personally, am now undecided on this matter after hearing both sides out in past threads with similar topics. I used to lean towards the first in the past but have moved more back towards the center on this matter. The second does fill the rules as written a bit better because it is true that similar situations are not grounds to switch around terms. Yet the first makes sense on a rules as interpreted level, as you have permission to re-roll even if it has additional limitations.

Sorry I couldn't be more helpful, but there is the situation you face.

JinxDragon wrote:
There is two lines of thoughts on this matter, both opposite interpretations of course.

You're missing the third and correct interpretation: the blast weapon rules clearly state that if you have a re-roll to hit you may re-roll the scatter dice instead. A model with preferred enemy (shooting against an appropriate target) has a re-roll to hit, therefore you may re-roll the scatter dice.

Should you want to add the argument that the term re-roll 1's is identical to the term re-roll feel free to add it to the debate. I have seen it in the past and it did not seem to go over well, with most people on the 'yes, it can be re-rolled' side supporting the limitation that a 1 would be needed before you could evoke page 33. I didn't consider it heavily because of that reason, but if you think I am in error then by all means do support it in further debates. As I mentioned, I am undecided on this issue and can be swayed by a compelling answer when it comes to many things.

You know what, can the opening poster start a poll with all three options?

Re-rolling 1s is a type of re-rolling to hit.

If you have the ability to re-roll, you re-roll the scatter.

PE gives you the ability to reroll - 1's only maybe, but you DO get to reroll. The rules for blasts do not require that you be able to reroll *all* dice

In short, I agree with Peregrine. Which really doesnt happen often

But is it 1's on the individual die you look at or do you look at the result of the two dice?

 Peregrine wrote:

JinxDragon wrote:
There is two lines of thoughts on this matter, both opposite interpretations of course.

You're missing the third and correct interpretation: the blast weapon rules clearly state that if you have a re-roll to hit you may re-roll the scatter dice instead. A model with preferred enemy (shooting against an appropriate target) has a re-roll to hit, therefore you may re-roll the scatter dice.

"Must" re-roll the scatter dice as well, not "may"

Irrelevant - being able to reroll to hit allows you to reroll scatter dice. The rerroll 1 is irrelevant - you reroll all scatter dice, no matter the result, if you wish

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Irrelevant - being able to reroll to hit allows you to reroll scatter dice. The rerroll 1 is irrelevant - you reroll all scatter dice, no matter the result, if you wish

So if I'm understanding you correctly, you are saying that Preferred Enemy allows one to reroll a scatter dice??? How are you making this connection? Preferred Enemy states you can reroll To Hit results of 1. Since you never rolled a 1 to hit (blast/barrage don't have a To Hit roll), there is no reroll granted from Preferred Enemy. If Preferred Enemy just gave you a blanket reroll, then you'd be fine to reroll the scatter, but you have to meet the requirement first before you are granted a reroll.

Classic, there are three ways of looking at it (and I refuse to claim one is right):
1. Since scatter can never be a To Hit roll of 1, it does not work.
2. Since you have the ability to re-roll (regardless of stipulations), you have permission to re-roll the scatter.
3. Same as 2 except you must roll at least one "1" in order to re-roll the scatter.

How I play it is 1.

 Happyjew wrote:
Classic, there are three ways of looking at it (and I refuse to claim one is right):
1. Since scatter can never be a To Hit roll of 1, it does not work.
2. Since you have the ability to re-roll (regardless of stipulations), you have permission to re-roll the scatter.
3. Same as 2 except you must roll at least one "1" in order to re-roll the scatter.

How I play it is 1.

#1 is how I play it as well. I'm just not understanding how 2 & 3 are even considered valid, and I'm trying to get a handle on the rules interpretation that would make 2 and/or 3 valid. Preferred Enemy doesn't grant a blanket reroll on a missed To Hit, it specifically states that a To Hit roll of 1 is required before granting the reroll, which can't happen with blast/barrage weapons.

The logic is as follows.
1. If a model can re-roll To Hit rolls then with a Blast weapon they can re-roll the scatter.
2. Preferred Enemy allows a model to re-roll To Hit rolls of 1.
3. Since the model can re-roll some To Hit rolls, it meets the necessary minimum to re-roll the scatter.

I have no idea where number 3 came from, but it was mentioned earlier so I included it for completeness.

 Happyjew wrote:
The logic is as follows.
1. If a model can re-roll To Hit rolls then with a Blast weapon they can re-roll the scatter.
2. Preferred Enemy allows a model to re-roll To Hit rolls of 1.
3. Since the model can re-roll some To Hit rolls, it meets the necessary minimum to re-roll the scatter.

I have no idea where number 3 came from, but it was mentioned earlier so I included it for completeness.

Okay, I get where they are coming from now.

Its a....liberal...interpretation to say the least, and I don't agree with it at all, but I at least can see where they are getting the connection.

 Happyjew wrote:
I have no idea where number 3 came from, but it was mentioned earlier so I included it for completeness.

Because the blast weapon rules say that you get to re-roll the scatter dice if you have a re-roll to hit. It doesn't say "if you have a twin-linked weapon" or "if you have the ability to re-roll all misses" or anything like that, it just checks if you have a re-roll of some kind. Preferred enemy gives a re-roll to hit (a re-roll of some dice is still a re-roll), so it lets you re-roll the scatter dice.

I've got to disagree, Preferred Enemy doesn't give the ability to re-roll, but the potential to re-roll.
Without rolling a 1 no re-roll roll is granted (in a similar vein with normal re-rolls, if a hit is rolled there is no re-roll granted).

 Peregrine wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
I have no idea where number 3 came from, but it was mentioned earlier so I included it for completeness.

Because the blast weapon rules say that you get to re-roll the scatter dice if you have a re-roll to hit. It doesn't say "if you have a twin-linked weapon" or "if you have the ability to re-roll all misses" or anything like that, it just checks if you have a re-roll of some kind. Preferred enemy gives a re-roll to hit (a re-roll of some dice is still a re-roll), so it lets you re-roll the scatter dice.

You misunderstand (my fault, I wasn't clear). I was referring to my number 3 from earlier when I said:

 Happyjew wrote:
Classic, there are three ways of looking at it (and I refuse to claim one is right):
1. Since scatter can never be a To Hit roll of 1, it does not work.
2. Since you have the ability to re-roll (regardless of stipulations), you have permission to re-roll the scatter.
3. Same as 2 except you must roll at least one "1" in order to re-roll the scatter.

How I play it is 1.

 Happyjew wrote:
You misunderstand (my fault, I wasn't clear). I was referring to my number 3 from earlier when I said:

Oh, I thought you meant #3 on the list in that post, not #3 in the earlier list. I also have no idea where the "must roll at least one 1 on the scatter dice" thing came from, it's certainly not anywhere in the rulebook. The two options are either "doesn't work at all" or an unconditional "can re-roll the scatter dice".

(And of course the second option is the correct one.)

 grendel083 wrote:
I've got to disagree, Preferred Enemy doesn't give the ability to re-roll, but the potential to re-roll.
Without rolling a 1 no re-roll roll is granted (in a similar vein with normal re-rolls, if a hit is rolled there is no re-roll granted).

Exactly. Preferred Enemy by itself does not grant a reroll, its PE plus a To Hit roll of 1 that grants the reroll, No To Hit roll of 1 means no reroll granted.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
I've got to disagree, Preferred Enemy doesn't give the ability to re-roll, but the potential to re-roll.
Without rolling a 1 no re-roll roll is granted (in a similar vein with normal re-rolls, if a hit is rolled there is no re-roll granted).

Exactly. Preferred Enemy by itself does not grant a reroll, its PE plus a To Hit roll of 1 that grants the reroll, No To Hit roll of 1 means no reroll granted.

That's like saying its not twin-linked granting the reroll, it's twin-linked and a failed to hit roll that grants it.

rigeld2 wrote:
That's like saying its not twin-linked granting the reroll, it's twin-linked and a failed to hit roll that grants it.

If you hit, are you allowed to re-roll?

This actually works in the same principle as a plasma cannon user with preferred enemy. Rolling for overheat, no reroll, and since its not twinlinked which is the same as a biovore, you cannot reroll the scatter dice its self. Then you move onto the ons you rolled on your scatter... not to hits, they are distance dice there for no reroll of ones, the only thing you get re rolls on is to wound of ones

Chris Lysander wrote:
they are distance dice there for no reroll of ones

That's not the point. You aren't re-rolling the scatter dice because they're to-hit rolls, you're re-rolling the scatter dice because if you would have a re-roll to hit then you get to re-roll the scatter dice (see the blast weapon rules).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
Preferred Enemy by itself does not grant a reroll, its PE plus a To Hit roll of 1 that grants the reroll, No To Hit roll of 1 means no reroll granted.

But that's not how it works. The rule doesn't say something like "if you roll a 1 to hit your weapon gains the 'twin linked' rule for the rest of the phase", it just gives you a re-roll to hit which can be used on certain dice. And as long as you have that re-roll you have enough to satisfy the "if you have a re-roll to hit" requirement on gaining a re-roll on the scatter dice.

 grendel083 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
That's like saying its not twin-linked granting the reroll, it's twin-linked and a failed to hit roll that grants it.

If you hit, are you allowed to re-roll?

With Twin-Linked, no.

rigeld2 wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
That's like saying its not twin-linked granting the reroll, it's twin-linked and a failed to hit roll that grants it.

If you hit, are you allowed to re-roll?

With Twin-Linked, no.

So in order to get a re-roll you need need twin-linked on your weapon, and a missed to To Hit roll.

Until you miss, you don't know if you're allowed to re-roll.

So a missed To Hit roll is a requirement of gaining a re-roll, as well as having the Twin-Linked rule.

Blast replaces the To Hit roll with its own version (p33 "models do not roll To Hit. Instead...").
So same situation, in order to gain a re-roll you need to miss and have Twin-Linked.

Preferred Enemy has a third requirement. Those misses must also be a 1. Something you can't fulfil with a scatter.
So the model does not have the ability to re-roll, because it did not meet the requirements to gain a re-roll.

Just my theory anyway. Feel free to pick it apart.

 Peregrine wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
Preferred Enemy by itself does not grant a reroll, its PE plus a To Hit roll of 1 that grants the reroll, No To Hit roll of 1 means no reroll granted.

But that's not how it works. The rule doesn't say something like "if you roll a 1 to hit your weapon gains the 'twin linked' rule for the rest of the phase", it just gives you a re-roll to hit which can be used on certain dice. And as long as you have that re-roll you have enough to satisfy the "if you have a re-roll to hit" requirement on gaining a re-roll on the scatter dice.

That's exactly how it works. The Preferred Enemy rule is pretty straight forward. Against the listed enemy type, you can reroll failed To Hit and To Wound rolls of 1, that's it, nothing more to it. No failed To Hit roll of 1 equals no reroll because you failed to meet the requirement for the reroll to be granted in the first place.

By your logic, just having the PE rule allows a scatter reroll against any target, not just the "Preferred" target, because you are ignoring all of the requirements for the special rule to take effect. That's not how the rule is written and I don't believe that is how it was intended.

Additionally, check the rule for rerolling blasts. The model has to have the ability to reroll before it can reroll the scatter dice. A model with Preferred Enemy does not gain the ability to reroll until it meets the two criteria, target is the Preferred Enemy and the To Hit was failed with a roll of 1.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
No failed To Hit roll of 1 equals no reroll because you failed to meet the requirement for the reroll to be granted in the first place.

See above for why this is wrong. By this reasoning even twin-linked weapons wouldn't grant a re-roll on the scatter dice because you have to miss a to-hit roll before you gain the re-roll from having a twin-linked weapon. Since a blast weapon never generates a missed to-hit roll you would never gain the re-roll, and therefore never gain the scatter re-roll that depends on it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
By your logic, just having the PE rule allows a scatter reroll against any target, not just the "Preferred" target, because you are ignoring all of the requirements for the special rule to take effect.

No. That's not it at all. The structure of the rules:

IF (target = preferred enemy) THEN gain ("may re-roll 1s").

IF (unit has re-roll to hit) THEN gain ("may re-roll scatter dice").

If you aren't shooting at your preferred enemy then you fail the first condition and never gain a re-roll at all.

My take is this, the dice rolled for hitting on a blast template is the scatter dice itself. There are arrows and 2 Hit symbols. There are no 1s on that dice, therefore Preferred Enemy does not work for that rerolling in that case. The numbered diced are a distance, not the to Hit roll. The scatter die is the actual thing determining the Hit or not.

 Lord Krungharr wrote:
My take is this, the dice rolled for hitting on a blast template is the scatter dice itself. There are arrows and 2 Hit symbols. There are no 1s on that dice, therefore Preferred Enemy does not work for that rerolling in that case. The numbered diced are a distance, not the to Hit roll. The scatter die is the actual thing determining the Hit or not.

Again, the point is not that the scatter distance is a to-hit roll and you're re-rolling a 1 to hit. Look at the rules for blast weapons, there's a rule that if you have a re-roll to hit you ALSO get the ability to re-roll the scatter dice. Since you would have a re-roll to hit on a non-blast weapon with preferred enemy you get to re-roll the scatter dice on blast weapons.