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 Peregrine wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
No failed To Hit roll of 1 equals no reroll because you failed to meet the requirement for the reroll to be granted in the first place.

See above for why this is wrong. By this reasoning even twin-linked weapons wouldn't grant a re-roll on the scatter dice because you have to miss a to-hit roll before you gain the re-roll from having a twin-linked weapon. Since a blast weapon never generates a missed to-hit roll you would never gain the re-roll, and therefore never gain the scatter re-roll that depends on it.

Twin-linked Blast Weapons on page 43 says you're wrong about this logic and it's application to Twin-Linked. Twin-Linked doesn't depend on "Blast Weapons and Rerolls" to work.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Lord Krungharr wrote:
My take is this, the dice rolled for hitting on a blast template is the scatter dice itself. There are arrows and 2 Hit symbols. There are no 1s on that dice, therefore Preferred Enemy does not work for that rerolling in that case. The numbered diced are a distance, not the to Hit roll. The scatter die is the actual thing determining the Hit or not.

Again, the point is not that the scatter distance is a to-hit roll and you're re-rolling a 1 to hit. Look at the rules for blast weapons, there's a rule that if you have a re-roll to hit you ALSO get the ability to re-roll the scatter dice. Since you would have a re-roll to hit on a non-blast weapon with preferred enemy you get to re-roll the scatter dice on blast weapons.

That works if you ignore the entire context of "rerolling 1's". You only have a reroll when you roll a 1. Blast weapons do not roll 1's.

You only have a reroll on twin linked weapons when you roll a miss. You never roll a miss when firing a blast weapon.

Same logic.

ALL blast weapons and rerolls asks is - do you have a reroll? If so you reroll blast scatter dice

PE grants a reroll, even though it is a reroll of a specifc result and not any result. Therefore it gains a reroll of scatter

No. That's not it at all. The structure of the rules:

IF (target = preferred enemy) THEN gain ("may re-roll 1s").

IF (unit has re-roll to hit) THEN gain ("may re-roll scatter dice").

If you aren't shooting at your preferred enemy then you fail the first condition and never gain a re-roll at all

Sorry Peregrine I don't get the distinction between the 2 criteria for a reroll with PE.

The criteria are:

1) You are targetting the PE unit.
2) You roll a 1 to hit.

If as you say the blast weapon rules don't care about criteria only that there is a possibility of a reroll, then Deathwing get rerolls with their plasma cannons against Necrons (and indeed everyone else).

Explain why the two criteria are different.

 Peregrine wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
No failed To Hit roll of 1 equals no reroll because you failed to meet the requirement for the reroll to be granted in the first place.

See above for why this is wrong. By this reasoning even twin-linked weapons wouldn't grant a re-roll on the scatter dice because you have to miss a to-hit roll before you gain the re-roll from having a twin-linked weapon. Since a blast weapon never generates a missed to-hit roll you would never gain the re-roll, and therefore never gain the scatter re-roll that depends on it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
By your logic, just having the PE rule allows a scatter reroll against any target, not just the "Preferred" target, because you are ignoring all of the requirements for the special rule to take effect.

No. That's not it at all. The structure of the rules:

IF (target = preferred enemy) THEN gain ("may re-roll 1s").

IF (unit has re-roll to hit) THEN gain ("may re-roll scatter dice").

If you aren't shooting at your preferred enemy then you fail the first condition and never gain a re-roll at all.

If you don't fail a To Hit roll with a result of 1, you don't gain the reroll either.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You only have a reroll on twin linked weapons when you roll a miss. You never roll a miss when firing a blast weapon.

Same logic.

ALL blast weapons and rerolls asks is - do you have a reroll? If so you reroll blast scatter dice

PE grants a reroll, even though it is a reroll of a specifc result and not any result. Therefore it gains a reroll of scatter

It would be the same logic if Twin-Linked didn't have it's own, explicit, section on how to handle Blast Weapons. Twin-Linked is the worst possible example to use because it's the only source of rerolls that DOESN'T use the "Blast Weapons and rerolls" section.

Again - blast weapons requires IF you have a reroll to hit, you get a reroll of scatter.

It does not require that you be able to roll to hit with the blast, as that would be impossible.

So either no weapon that has a reroll to hit can reroll scatter, or any reroll to hit allows a reroll to scatter.

Blast & Large Blast:

"When firing a Blast weapon, models do not roll To Hit."

Blast Weapons and Re-rolls:

"If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit... ...re-roll both the scatter dice and the 2D6."

PE:

"...re-rolls failed To Hit and To Wound rolls of 1..."

My logic:

[To Hit rolls of 1] =/= [To Hit rolls]

You cannot roll a To Hit roll of 1 with a blast as a blast does not roll To Hit.

Therefore, PE has no effect on the scattering of a blast.

Even if you did get a re-roll to scatter with PE, you would have to re-roll all of the dice, not just the scatter die.

"reroll its rolls to hit"

is fullfilled by

"rerolls its rolls to hit of a 1"

They are still rerolls.

"You cannot roll a To Hit roll of 1 with a blast as a blast does not roll To Hit"

NOONE rolls to hit with a blast, meaning by your argument noone with the abiltiy to reroll gets to do so.

Well he does have a point. The ability to 're-roll To Hit rolls of 1' ( has limitation) is not the same as the ability to 're-roll To Hit' (without limitation).

The ability to re-roll scatter requires the 're-roll To Hit' (without limitation), not the other.

It's a different version of the same idea, but not the stated requirement of re-rolling scatter.

Do you have the ability to reroll to-hit? It does not say "reroll to hit (all to hits)" - it gives no requirement more than ability to reroll to hit

You are parsing that sentence and adding a requirement to it that does not exist.

Reroll to hit (rolls of a 1) DOES EQUAL reroll to hit, but does NOT EQUAL reroll ALL to hits. You are statign the latter is required in the rules, when the language is entirely missing

Its like the difference between within and fully within. Reroll to hit and reroll ALL to hit have different meanings.

Re-roll To Hit
Re-roll 1s To Hit

You can't equate them. The first encompasses the second, yes, but claiming that both provide THE SAME sort of meta 're-rolls to hit' ability is a major leap in logic.

The text differs. The limitations differ. The results are not equal in all cases (one allows you to re-roll 2s to 5s if they fail to hit, the other doesn't). They are not equal.

Re-rolling scatter requires you have the ability to "Re-roll To Hit". Only one of the above abilities provides that exactly.

PE doesn't provide Re-Roll To Hit. It provides Re-Roll 1s To Hit.

Is the ability to reroll 1s on a hit an ability to reroll to hits? Yes, it is.

If it was not an ability to reroll to hits, why the hell are my opponents touching their hit dice regularly when they show a 1? Have to stop them from doing this. Since according to a lot of people here, it is not a reroll to hit.

The scatter reroll isnt specified. If you are able to reroll to hit rolls. you are able to reroll scatter dice.

 Shandara wrote:
Re-roll To Hit
Re-roll 1s To Hit

You can't equate them. The first encompasses the second, yes, but claiming that both provide THE SAME sort of meta 're-rolls to hit' ability is a major leap in logic.

No, it isnt

You have a condition - you MUST be able to reroll your to-hit dice. If you fulfill the condition you get a benefit.

So, can you reroll your to hit dice with PE? Yes, on a roll of a 1. This fulfills the condition precisely.

Do you reroll ALL dice? No, however that is not a requirement of the rule.

Shandara wrote:The text differs. The limitations differ. The results are not equal in all cases (one allows you to re-roll 2s to 5s if they fail to hit, the other doesn't). They are not equal.

Which is where you have now made up a rule that doesnt exist

You are being asked if you can reroll your tohit. You are not being asked if you can reroll ALL your to hit, or ALL FAILED, or ALL ROLLS OF A 2, or ALL ROLLS OF A 3, ..., just whether you CAN reroll your to hit. You CAN reroll your to hit dice - yes, in limited circumstances, but the requirement makes absolutely no mention of these limitations mattering.

Shandara wrote:Re-rolling scatter requires you have the ability to "Re-roll To Hit". Only one of the above abilities provides that exactly.

Incorrect, as proven

"Reroll to hit" is fulfilled by ever being able to reroll to hit. "reroll ALL to hit" is what you are claiming is required. Do not make up rules, or insert words into a parsing when they do not belonw/

Shandara wrote:PE doesn't provide Re-Roll To Hit. It provides Re-Roll 1s To Hit.

Yes, and reroll to hit (of a 1) is a part of Reroll to hit. It is not the same as reroll to hit (all rolls) , however it IS a member of the set of instances that fulfills the criteria "can you reroll to hit?"

Your error is that you are creating an absolute when none exists. Again, your claim is the same as claiming that "within" is equal to "fully within", when those two are different.

Fully within is a member of the set of "within" results. Reroll to hit rolls (1s ) is a member of the set "reroll to hit", same as "reroll to hit (all)" is a member of the set

Reread what you are saying, and note your error in parsing the sentence the way you are

To add another example - you are asked "can you throw a ball? If so you may have a chocolate"

I can throw a ball (1 metre). Do I get a chocolate
I can throw a ball (2 metres) Do I get a chocolate?
I can throw a ball (infinite distance). Do I get a chocolate?

Your claim is that being able to throw a ball means you must be able to throw all balls all distances (all failed to hit rolls, for example) when that isnt what the rule actually requires.

If you can reroll to hit you may reroll scatter. It doesnt matter how "much" you can reroll to hit, you get a flat benefit of rerolling.

The new Eldar Codex has a Spiritseer which can grant Wraith units, including the Hemlock Wraithfighter, the ability to re-roll 1's to hit through his Spirit Mark special rule.

However, in the new Iyanden supplement, the following text is included to the 'strategy' section:
Just remember that, as the Hemlock gains no benefit from a Spirit Mark (it doesn't roll to hit in a conventional manner) you don't have to worry about keeping a Spiritseer near to the enemy you want it to obliterate

Seems GW at least doesn't intend to allow re-rolling 1's to affect (Large) Blast weapons.

 Redemption wrote:
The new Eldar Codex has a Spiritseer which can grant Wraith units, including the Hemlock Wraithfighter, the ability to re-roll 1's to hit through his Spirit Mark special rule.

However, in the new Iyanden supplement, the following text is included to the 'strategy' section:
Just remember that, as the Hemlock gains no benefit from a Spirit Mark (it doesn't roll to hit in a conventional manner) you don't have to worry about keeping a Spiritseer near to the enemy you want it to obliterate

Seems GW at least doesn't intend to allow re-rolling 1's to affect (Large) Blast weapons.

Nice catch. That pretty much puts this one to bed if you ask me.

Apart from the actual rules saying otherwise, I would agree.

It shows possible intent (as in, when they wrote it they possibly thought the rule said something different), but has no bearing on the actual rules saying gain "a" form of reroll to hit, even if situational, is sufficient.

I'd say it's roughly equivalent to an FAQ answer, albeit harder to get hold of.

Not at all, given it is part of the non rules part of the book. I would not trust those parts for rules answers, given the examples of illegal army lists, options etc that have been in prior books.

ha ha ha ha ha Nosferatu wrong again

I know writing whole rules sections out is frowned upon. BUT IT IS VERY CLEAR!!!
Page 33: Blast and Large Blast: Paragraph 2 of the text.

When firing a blast weapon, models DO NOT ROLL TO HIT. Instead just pick one enemy model visible to the firerand place the relevant blast marker with its hole entirely over the base of the target model... blah blah blah


DO NOT ROLL TO HIT!

now what was the argument, oh yeah can you can you use the PE to reroll the scatter.

wait wait you need to roll a 1 to hit, wait wait wait oh yeah your not rolling to hit. so wheres your roll to hit coming from to get your re roll??? NO WHERE!!!

Chris Lysander wrote:
ha ha ha ha ha Nosferatu wrong again

I know writing whole rules sections out is frowned upon. BUT IT IS VERY CLEAR!!!
Page 33: Blast and Large Blast: Paragraph 2 of the text.

When firing a blast weapon, models DO NOT ROLL TO HIT. Instead just pick one enemy model visible to the firerand place the relevant blast marker with its hole entirely over the base of the target model... blah blah blah


DO NOT ROLL TO HIT!

now what was the argument, oh yeah can you can you use the PE to reroll the scatter.

wait wait you need to roll a 1 to hit, wait wait wait oh yeah your not rolling to hit. so wheres your roll to hit coming from to get your re roll??? NO WHERE!!!

Oh but look - there is a section about Blast Weapons and Re-rolls: If a model has the ability to re-roll To Hits... Does the model have the ability to re-roll To Hit rolls? Yes.

 Happyjew wrote:

Chris Lysander wrote:
ha ha ha ha ha Nosferatu wrong again

I know writing whole rules sections out is frowned upon. BUT IT IS VERY CLEAR!!!
Page 33: Blast and Large Blast: Paragraph 2 of the text.

When firing a blast weapon, models DO NOT ROLL TO HIT. Instead just pick one enemy model visible to the firerand place the relevant blast marker with its hole entirely over the base of the target model... blah blah blah


DO NOT ROLL TO HIT!

now what was the argument, oh yeah can you can you use the PE to reroll the scatter.

wait wait you need to roll a 1 to hit, wait wait wait oh yeah your not rolling to hit. so wheres your roll to hit coming from to get your re roll??? NO WHERE!!!

Oh but look - there is a section about Blast Weapons and Re-rolls: If a model has the ability to re-roll To Hits... Does the model have the ability to re-roll To Hit rolls? Yes.

Its all how you want to interpret "have the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit" and Preferred Enemy.

To me (and others), PE does not grant a blanket ability to re-roll, as you don't get the ability to re-roll until you meet the requirement of rolling a failed To Hit roll of 1. Since blast weapons don't roll to hit, its impossible to gain the ability to re-roll. Nos, Peregrine, and others see PE as a blanket ability to re-roll, because you can re-roll failed To Hit rolls in specific circumstances.

Now we have learned that GW apparently doesn't see it as a blanket reroll as they made it a point to mention an identical circumstance in the strategy section of the Iyanden codex, stating you do not get to reroll the blast since there is no failed To Hit roll of 1. Now one could try to argue that since its not in an FAQ, its not official, but that's just being contrary for being contrary's sake.

to anyone with half a brain cell its clear. you dont roll to hit you dont get to re roll. you HAVE to meet the requirements in the first place to get the ability to reroll.

read the woirding for gods sake, "reroll to hit of 1". you have to meet that criteria and you do not roll to hit therefore you cannot roll to hit of 1 and that model can not directly get the ability to reroll as the criteria states specifically what you need to do

Chris Lysander wrote:
to anyone with half a brain cell its clear.

Can you make your arguments without the insults and abusive manner please? It's not helping your argument.

And you're only partially correct.
Personally I don't think they should get a re-roll, but would like to point out that the "To Hit" roll is replaced in the Blast rules.
So you do roll "To Hit"
But you can't roll a one.

clearly states in the BRB models firing blast weapons do not roll to hit how much clearer do you want it to be!!!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
and i get fed up of seeing people trying to abuse words by ignoring other rules like in this case to get the result they want, and how many people have now proven in this topic i think im one of 5, of which i have quoted directly in relation from the rule book whether or not a blast template rolls to hit which is later the requirement for rerol to hit of 1's for PE as one example

Reported for failing to present a relevant argument, and being insulting while doing so.

Have you read the actual rules stating what happens when a model has an ability to reroll to hit, and theyre using a blast weapon? It would be handy if you could do so, thanks

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Reported for failing to present a relevant argument, and being insulting while doing so.

Have you read the actual rules stating what happens when a model has an ability to reroll to hit, and theyre using a blast weapon? It would be handy if you could do so, thanks

lol cant win your argument with rules quotes so you resolve tothe "im telling on you technique"... really come on how old are you... go back to a few comments back where quoted brb page 33: blast and large blast, paragraph 2, which states you don't roll to hit.

then you go to prefered enemy which states if you roll a 1 to hit you can re roll

so using simple programming logic:
if the roll to hit =1 then re roll to hit; if the roll to hit doesn't = 1 then don't re roll to hit

seriously you only get a re roll if you meet the requirement, you don't roll to hit therefore you you cannot ever meet the requirement

its whats commonly referred to if/then not do what ever you want to do

So Preferred Enemy doesn't grant a roll to hit?

rigeld2 wrote:
So Preferred Enemy doesn't grant a roll to hit?

regardless of what 1 or 2 people want to say no. if you can't roll a one to hit you can't get the PE re roll ability. it is nice and simple logic when you apply logic to it.

It's really a yes or no question - does PE grant a re-roll to hit?
You're saying no. The rules say yes.