I know for sure that I am.

The Eldar never seems to win anything. In the Path Series they lose, atleast militarily. In these new short stories they get slaughtered. Even in their own codex they seem to lose most of the battles they enter. This seems to be done to show how much the Eldar are doomed, how they are all going to die because they suck. As an Eldar player, this is a great turn-off. What's the joy in playing a faction that is supposed to be superior, but still manages to lose every single campaign, battle or game of Monopoly they fight.

Fluff =/= Tabletop.

My Eldar always win. I'm not concerned with GW's inability to write a good story.

Yeah, if you go by the Path series it makes no sense. Hell, the craftworld of the books has 3 Striking Scorpion exarchs/shrines and by the end of the book


**** Spoiler, not sure how to do tags ****











all the damn exarchs are dead.

 Marzillius wrote:
I know for sure that I am.

The Eldar never seems to win anything. In the Path Series they lose, atleast militarily. In these new short stories they get slaughtered. Even in their own codex they seem to lose most of the battles they enter. This seems to be done to show how much the Eldar are doomed, how they are all going to die because they suck. As an Eldar player, this is a great turn-off. What's the joy in playing a faction that is supposed to be superior, but still manages to lose every single campaign, battle or game of Monopoly they fight.

Why do you always lose? Because you're out teched by the Necrons (and outnumbered) and you aren't advanced enough to let you curbstomp other more numerous races like the Necrons are.

Essentially the Necrontyr have rendered you obsolete in the entire "absusive precursor" niche and your advantage over other species isn't great enough to pull out great victories.

 Marzillius wrote:
Even in their own codex they seem to lose most of the battles they enter.

Really?
Someone has changed their fluff in translation then, mine doesn't show them as losing....

Maybe a few examples?

Isn't the FW book they're in, Doom of Mymeara or something similar, basically a story of Eldar winning small battles but mostly losing the war against the IG?

deathmagiks wrote:
Isn't the FW book they're in, Doom of Mymeara or something similar, basically a story of Eldar winning small battles but mostly losing the war against the IG?

Another problem with the Eldar, they have no staying power. Virtually every other faction has it in ample supply.

But staying power is what you need when you're fighting for territory or for a stronghold. Eldar fight for objectives: Get in, steal chaos artifact, get out. Get in, murder Space Marine Captain, get out. It's their whole philosophy. Staying power shouldn't matter when the ground you're fighting for doesn't matter. Tenacity only becomes an issue when you're measuring hammer vrs hammer. This is Hammer vrs. Rapier.

DaffDred: wrong forum for comments like that, mate.

The real problem with the Eldar wars is the fluff writers' inability to make use of the Eldar faction's way of warfare. It's like the fluff writer's have created a race whose modum operandi they themselves do not understand.

It's not about staying power, it's fine to portray the faction like that, but the problem lies in that they use Eldar as some sort of PDF and lets them get trapped in these nonsensical all out wars.
Eldar goes into battle, claims their objectives and then leave. Or then shift sides. Or whatever. They don't stick around long enough to get crushed.
For a race lead by excessively intelligent people who use psychic powers to aid them in their decisions they make enough bad decisions that you start questioning whether they aren't the Bond villains of 40k.

I mean Eldar psychers do often keep cats as pets...

deathmagiks wrote:
But staying power is what you need when you're fighting for territory or for a stronghold. Eldar fight for objectives: Get in, steal chaos artifact, get out. Get in, murder Space Marine Captain, get out. It's their whole philosophy. Staying power shouldn't matter when the ground you're fighting for doesn't matter. Tenacity only becomes an issue when you're measuring hammer vrs hammer. This is Hammer vrs. Rapier.

And more often Hammer factions like the Necrons, Orks, Imperium, and Tyranids just take the rapier to the gut, let it snap in their bodies and then smash the Eldar's skull with a hammer.

Well that means you're assuming the Eldar are aiming for the gut

deathmagiks wrote:
Well that means you're assuming the Eldar are aiming for the gut

Well given that the threats to the galaxy's continued existence as a place suitable for reasonable factions like the Imperium, Tau, and Eldar are growing while those that can stop them are becoming ever weaker, I think the Eldar are definitively failing in their task.

Not only are they incapable of containing their mess (Chaos) or their former comrades in arms (The Orks), but their oldest foes are awakening once again (the Necrons) and a threat they completely failed to predict hasn't even been meaningfully slowed by their efforts (the Tyranids).

 Mahtamori wrote:
DaffDred: wrong forum for comments like that, mate.

The real problem with the Eldar wars is the fluff writers' inability to make use of the Eldar faction's way of warfare. It's like the fluff writer's have created a race whose modum operandi they themselves do not understand.

It's not about staying power, it's fine to portray the faction like that, but the problem lies in that they use Eldar as some sort of PDF and lets them get trapped in these nonsensical all out wars.
Eldar goes into battle, claims their objectives and then leave. Or then shift sides. Or whatever. They don't stick around long enough to get crushed.
For a race lead by excessively intelligent people who use psychic powers to aid them in their decisions they make enough bad decisions that you start questioning whether they aren't the Bond villains of 40k.

I mean Eldar psychers do often keep cats as pets...

This hits the nail on the head, frankly.

The problem with Eldar fluff is that Eldar are supposed to be the undisputed masters of asymmetric warfare- never assaulting hard targets, avoiding fights where heavy losses are possible, using misdirection and deceit to scatter an enemies' forces, etc. Yet they're written in the fluff to fight in the same exact way as everyone else: masses of gun-lining infantry and tanks pushing forward to an objective in waves, smashing against enemy lines in brutal melee brawls, etc, and that's just not the Eldar way. Matt Ward's UltramarineXEldar fight in the SM codex is a perfect example of how Eldar are misused in fights. Why are the Eldar throwing themselves at the Ultramarines with such reckless abandon? It doesn't make any sense for them to fight like bad guy Vietcong in some cheesy Vietnam film. They even threw their avatar at them, for Christ's sake.

The Dark Eldar codex has the truest representation of how Eldar fight. Some of the fluff stories in that book, like the story about Malys and her forces raiding that Mechanicum world and fighting off the Imperials and orks to get the STC. Beautiful.

I'm a long time space marine fan and even I'm sick of reading about the Eldar constantly being trashed... Surely BL should give them small victories as I always think of them as superlative at most this but just few and far between

Magnus The Mauve wrote:
I'm a long time space marine fan and even I'm sick of reading about the Eldar constantly being trashed... Surely BL should give them small victories as I always think of them as superlative at most this but just few and far between

And the Avatars of Khaine get punked, every, single, time. So much for being the shards of the god of war.

Am I tired of the Eldar losing, hmm....nope, can't say I am. It's not my fault they had the whole galaxy in their hands and fethed it up.

They're supposed to be in decline given the fluff.

It really would not make much sense if the civilization in decline suddenly ran around kicking everyone's butt.

deathmagiks wrote:
Yeah, if you go by the Path series it makes no sense. Hell, the craftworld of the books has 3 Striking Scorpion exarchs/shrines and by the end of the book


**** Spoiler, not sure how to do tags ****











all the damn exarchs are dead.

Hospy wrote:
They're supposed to be in decline given the fluff.

It really would not make much sense if the civilization in decline suddenly ran around kicking everyone's butt.

Why does that not make any sense.

It seems the writers can't handle all the 30 Xanatos pileups and "just as planned" moments that are the hallmarks of the Eldar at war.

Forgeworld gets it right on occasion where the Eldar drop in the ocean, speed around the hive cities and lure the PDF into the open, cut off and kill them, and leave the cities to the predations of the dark kin, but really most GW writers don't know how any type of warfare works.

I mean, that Ultramarine movie, gah.

Isn't one of the themes of the Eldar is that they are slowly dying out, and for all of their precognitive abilities they can't do anything about it?

Granted, they should still be able to tear anyone they run into apart.

Hospy wrote:
They're supposed to be in decline given the fluff.

It really would not make much sense if the civilization in decline suddenly ran around kicking everyone's butt.

I think you're missing the point here. Just because the eldar are doomed in the long run doesn't mean that they aren't a force to be reconed with. They still have awesome psychic powers that are supposed to be used to make sure that they only enter battles where they are (farirly) sure to win. Their technology and weaponry are among the deadliest and most advanced in the galaxy and the elite units they have are often the very best in their particular role among all the armies.
They should win alot more often, but the fluff writers simply do not know of how they should represent them. They are mostly pictured as aliens who will break alliances just to show how deceitful they are, even when it doesn't serve any purpose. They are blinded by their own arrogance and feelings. They fight battles as if they were an imperial guard army with endless reserves... And after the battle they whine about how many precious lives they lost.

It makes no sense!
Even when they get a new codex they get fluff that pictures them as morons, and that'w quite frustrating.

Hospy wrote:
They're supposed to be in decline given the fluff.

It really would not make much sense if the civilization in decline suddenly ran around kicking everyone's butt.

Hannibal won nearly every battle he fought but still lost the war because he couldn't make enough of a dent in his enemy's numbers. The Eldar *should* be like that.

 Kain wrote:

Hospy wrote:
They're supposed to be in decline given the fluff.

It really would not make much sense if the civilization in decline suddenly ran around kicking everyone's butt.

Hannibal won nearly every battle he fought but still lost the war because he couldn't make enough of a dent in his enemy's numbers. The Eldar *should* be like that.

Yep. As I said, slowly dying out with no way to stop it.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Kain wrote:

Hospy wrote:
They're supposed to be in decline given the fluff.

It really would not make much sense if the civilization in decline suddenly ran around kicking everyone's butt.

Hannibal won nearly every battle he fought but still lost the war because he couldn't make enough of a dent in his enemy's numbers. The Eldar *should* be like that.

Yep. As I said, slowly dying out with no way to stop it.

That is still no reason to constantly show them as the losing side in almost every conflict

 Enigma wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Kain wrote:

Hospy wrote:
They're supposed to be in decline given the fluff.

It really would not make much sense if the civilization in decline suddenly ran around kicking everyone's butt.

Hannibal won nearly every battle he fought but still lost the war because he couldn't make enough of a dent in his enemy's numbers. The Eldar *should* be like that.

Yep. As I said, slowly dying out with no way to stop it.

That is still no reason to constantly show them as the losing side in almost every conflict

Here, the battles are the various wars they fight in, the war is the survival of their species which I expect to be snuffed out either by the Tyranids or Necrons if the metaplot advances.

This seems to be more of a Black Library thing than anything. Yes, both in the Path of the Eldar books and in the Carnac short stories, we see them losing the major battle. But mind you, in the Path of the Eldar stories they lay some serious beat down on several other factions. It's not until a massive combined fleet sent to them in a vulnerable position makes a serious dent in their power. Even then, they win the combat by manipulation, though not outright firepower. Seems legit to me.

And Carnac was doomed from the beginning, we knew that going in. Still, the way they brutalize the Necrons in the third story makes it worth it.

In most of the Codex stories, especially in Iyanden (other than the iconic battle), they beat unimaginable odds. I do agree they seem to handle Dark Eldar better in most cases. It seems as if they don't find the shadowy manipulation as befitting the 'good guys' as they do the bad guys, but I think that's just a limitation of the writers.

 tanuvein wrote:
This seems to be more of a Black Library thing than anything. Yes, both in the Path of the Eldar books and in the Carnac short stories, we see them losing the major battle. But mind you, in the Path of the Eldar stories they lay some serious beat down on several other factions. It's not until a massive combined fleet sent to them in a vulnerable position makes a serious dent in their power. Even then, they win the combat by manipulation, though not outright firepower. Seems legit to me.

And Carnac was doomed from the beginning, we knew that going in. Still, the way they brutalize the Necrons in the third story makes it worth it.

In most of the Codex stories, especially in Iyanden (other than the iconic battle), they beat unimaginable odds. I do agree they seem to handle Dark Eldar better in most cases. It seems as if they don't find the shadowy manipulation as befitting the 'good guys' as they do the bad guys, but I think that's just a limitation of the writers.

I see you missed nearly every 5e codex ever, where not a book would go by without a new giant pile of dead space elves.

Frankly, the Eldar win every battle or war you never hear about - because they didn't actually have to fight them.

Look at it this way. For every disaster the Eldar suffer, there must be at least half a dozen more where one good shot by a Ranger meant the fight ended before it even started.

 Super Ready wrote:
Frankly, the Eldar win every battle or war you never hear about - because they didn't actually have to fight them.

Look at it this way. For every disaster the Eldar suffer, there must be at least half a dozen more where one good shot by a Ranger meant the fight ended before it even started.

I'm sure that will avail them much against the Necrons or Tyranids who don't care about decapitation strikes, Necrons because the Leaders get back up and are now pissed off, Tyranids because you kill one and then a million more take it's place.

The Iyanden supplement does write them as being responsible for why Chaos never established a major stronghold on the eastern rim of the galaxy. Though admittedly most of these victories against nameless Chaos foes happens "off camera".

I agree with other previous posters that GW writers either don't seem to get the Eldar or their story plots end up favoring the kind of head on "fair fights" of brute force that the Eldar are not meant to do. The Eldar are not supposed to "fight fair" and should be all about massing force against the enemy's weaknesses, rather than against their strengths.

A 40K game about the Eldar fighting in their style should be like 2000 points of Eldar versus 200 points of the enemy because the rest of the enemy has been lured out chasing phantoms or defending other places they thought the Eldar were going to attack.

Eldar are meant to be a dying/doomed race, it's their motif that has helped branch them out from just being Space Elves.

Anyway, in the new codex there's:

12 Eldar victories (Lugganath, Kraken, 12 Outcasts, Moon of Nightmares, Malaxis, Maedrax, Gnosis Prime, Killfist, Zandros, Eldrtich Raiders , Black Library, Bio-Purge)

1 Eldar defeat (Malan'tai)

I dont mind them dying a lot, I really dont like elves in space or in fantasy. Luck or skill I usually do not have a problem crushing the elves be they fantasy or 40k.

However, I wouldnt be too concerned about the fluff if I did like the race because most BL and codex writing is subpar on a good day and deserves to be ignored.

You think Eldar lose a lot?
Try being a Sisters of Battle player. Their fluff is nothing but them getting flat out slaughtered.

It's fun seeing the Sisters of Battle get slaughtered though- it's heartbreaking watching the dying race suffer so. : (

Don't Sisters of Battle not lose in their Codex, though? ...mainly cause they don't have a real codex, IIRC.

Sisters did win a few times in the (Very small) fluff portion of the most recent white dwarf codex, including repelling a Chaos Space Marine attack on the shrineworld where they originated.

They very briefly (one sentence) mention the Sanctuary 101 massacre at the hands of the necrons.

 Madcat87 wrote:
They very briefly (one sentence) mention the Sanctuary 101 massacre at the hands of the necrons.

The whole Sanctuary 101 massacre is actually a canonization of an old WD battle report when Necrons first came out in 2nd edition as raiders. Their first set of rules was horrendously broken and the battle report was horribly one sided resulting in the complete wiping out of the Sisters of Battle force with only a few token Necron casualties.

Frankly, Eldar don't fare even half as bad as Abaddon and not even 1/10th as bad as Tyranids

 Zweischneid wrote:
Frankly, Eldar don't fare even half as bad as Abaddon and not even 1/10th as bad as Tyranids

Now that night be true, one can't help to feel sorry for the poor guy.
But there's a very real reason as why they can't win: if they did then that particular faction would win the entire game of 40k.
And time and time again we read about hive- and splinterfleets laying waste to entire planets and sub sectors. Not to mention all the planets that have fallen to chaos or, the planetkiller or the captured blackstone fortresses. They win a lot of battles, but never the war. Just as eldar also should It's just that the writers wont even let them win battles...

Eldar players are well aware that their faction of choice probably is destinied to fall, but atleast give them some wins to encourage them to continue playing. How often do we read of space marine or necron losses?

 Enigma wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:
Frankly, Eldar don't fare even half as bad as Abaddon and not even 1/10th as bad as Tyranids

Now that night be true, one can't help to feel sorry for the poor guy.
But there's a very real reason as why they can't win: if they did then that particular faction would win the entire game of 40k

Well, the could at least take a planet or something once in a while. Tyranids in particular.

Talking about Eldar triumphs / Tyranid failures, Tyranids - in the Tyranid Codex - lose an entire splinter fleet (!) to Maugan Ra defending a planet.... by himself.... literally.... one man (or Eldar) with (presumably) a lot of ammunition.

 Zweischneid wrote:

 Enigma wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:
Frankly, Eldar don't fare even half as bad as Abaddon and not even 1/10th as bad as Tyranids

Now that night be true, one can't help to feel sorry for the poor guy.
But there's a very real reason as why they can't win: if they did then that particular faction would win the entire game of 40k

Well, the could at least take a planet or something once in a while. Tyranids in particular.

Talking about Eldar triumphs / Tyranid failures, Tyranids - in the Tyranid Codex - lose an entire splinter fleet (!) to Maugan Ra defending a planet.... by himself.... literally.... one man (or Eldar) with (presumably) a lot of ammunition.

Actually it never ever says it was an entire splinter fleet. That is classic misreading that has been passed on from one reader to the next.

The actual direct quote is:

The Phoenix Lord Maugan-Ra stands alone against the Tyanid swarm, and triumphs.

p.28, 5th edition Tyranid Codex

Swarm is a generic vague term used by GW and doesn't necessarily denote a fleet. It has been also used in reference to ground forces. While still improbable, it isn't as hyperbolic as detractors have tried to claim.

Iracundus wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:

 Enigma wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:
Frankly, Eldar don't fare even half as bad as Abaddon and not even 1/10th as bad as Tyranids

Now that night be true, one can't help to feel sorry for the poor guy.
But there's a very real reason as why they can't win: if they did then that particular faction would win the entire game of 40k

Well, the could at least take a planet or something once in a while. Tyranids in particular.

Talking about Eldar triumphs / Tyranid failures, Tyranids - in the Tyranid Codex - lose an entire splinter fleet (!) to Maugan Ra defending a planet.... by himself.... literally.... one man (or Eldar) with (presumably) a lot of ammunition.

Actually it never ever says it was an entire splinter fleet. That is classic misreading that has been passed on from one reader to the next.

The actual direct quote is:

The Phoenix Lord Maugan-Ra stands alone against the Tyanid swarm, and triumphs.

p.28, 5th edition Tyranid Codex

Swarm is a generic vague term used by GW and doesn't necessarily denote a fleet. It has been also used in reference to ground forces. While still improbable, it isn't as hyperbolic as detractors have tried to claim.

Yeah, it could have just been a bunch of rippers for all we know. If that's the case, I'm sure Maugen Ra had to get a new pair of tap dancing shoes afterwards.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


Yeah, it could have just been a bunch of rippers for all we know. If that's the case, I'm sure Maugen Ra had to get a new pair of tap dancing shoes afterwards.

Well, those few rippers make up a pretty damn big arrow on a map of a major slice of the galaxy (!) sent to invade a whole planetary system (!).

Since when do Tyranids launch full-scale planetary invasions with a few rippers. And it couldn't have been "only ground forces", as it clearly shows them traversing hundreds of lightyears across that galactic map before running head-on into the bloody dead-end that is Maugan Ra.

Don't forget, Maugan-Ra also went into the eye of terror and got his craftworld back.

I do not believe that there is an upper limit for what Maugan-Ra can accomplish after that.

Next, he kills the emperor just so chaos can manifest in realspace, so he can kill them too.

The Eldar lose. Maugan-Ra has transcended losing.

 Zweischneid wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


Yeah, it could have just been a bunch of rippers for all we know. If that's the case, I'm sure Maugen Ra had to get a new pair of tap dancing shoes afterwards.

Well, those few rippers make up a pretty damn big arrow on a map of the entire galaxy (!) sent to invade a whole planetary system (!).

Since when do Tyranids launch full-scale planetary invasions with a few rippers. And it couldn't have been "only ground forces", as it clearly shows them traversing hundreds of lightyears across that galactic map before running head-on into the bloody dead-end that is Maugan Ra.

It doesn't show the tendril necessarily dead-ending or being destroyed. Remember the timeline is stopped. It just shows the tendril has reached as far as there at that point in time. Maugan-Ra defeating a particular ground swarm on that world doesn't allow anything in particular to be concluded about the fate of that tendril of Leviathan, just that it has reached as far as that world. In much the same way, the tendril ending at Octaria (seems to be reference to the Ork Empire of Octarius) doesn't mean the Tyranid fleet has been destroyed, when all the latest information shows the Tyranids and Orks still busy fighting there.

PredaKhaine wrote:
Don't forget, Maugan-Ra also went into the eye of terror and got his craftworld back.

It said Maugan Ra "guided what was left of his craftworld out of the Eye of Terror". In the Eye of Terror campaign, Altansar forces were shown intervening in favor of the Eldar in the crone world warzones, so Altansar was still intact, but unable to find the way out somehow due to the effects of the Eye or Chaos warp magic. Guiding the way out is a believable achievement for one individual to make. However in this case, Maugan-Ra was not alone, and was accompanied by disciples.

I have reproduced the relevant section here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/531298.page

Iracundus wrote:
in particular to be concluded about the fate of that tendril of Leviathan, just that it has reached as far as that world. In much the same way, the tendril ending at Octaria (seems to be reference to the Ork Empire of Octarius) doesn't mean the Tyranid fleet has been destroyed, when all the latest information shows the Tyranids and Orks still busy fighting there.

I disagree. In particular, because the arrow leading to Octarius doesn't end in a tidy little text-box saying "X stands (alone) against the Tyranid swarm, and triumphs."

Sounds like a fairly incisive event too me. Perhaps not the last thing we've ever hear from that tendril of Leviathan, but certainly more than a few dead rippers and most definitely a major, astonishing and all-out incredible feat of warfare (or, rather, single-combat) by Maugan Ra, who (last I checked) is an Eldar. It is, presumably, at least on par with other conflicts that "get text-boxes", such as the Ultramarines successfully defending Macragge.

 Zweischneid wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
in particular to be concluded about the fate of that tendril of Leviathan, just that it has reached as far as that world. In much the same way, the tendril ending at Octaria (seems to be reference to the Ork Empire of Octarius) doesn't mean the Tyranid fleet has been destroyed, when all the latest information shows the Tyranids and Orks still busy fighting there.

I disagree. In particular, because the arrow leading to Octarius doesn't end in a tidy little text-box saying "X stands (alone) against the Tyanid swarm, and triumphs."

Sounds like a fairly incisive event too me. Perhaps not the last thing we've ever hear from that tendril of Leviathan, but certainly more than a few dead rippers and most definitely a major, astonishing and all-out incredible feat of warfare (or, rather, single-combat) by Maugan Ra, who (last I checked) is an Eldar.

I never said it was just a band of rippers. To be mentioned in a box is to be notable in the first place, but it isn't the same as defeating a fleet single-handedly. A single-handed defeat of a force led by a Hive Tyrant would be notable enough, or like the tale of Maugan-Ra and that big synapse creature during the attack on Iyanden, but it doesn't allow anything to be concluded about the fleet itself.

Again see:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/531298.page

Maugan-Ra accomplishes a major feat of combat by killing a creature that in game terms would be roughly equivalent to a Trygon Prime and gains a tactical victory on Iyanden against the Tyranids. However, it didn't change the strategic situation and that was still left up to Yriel's intervention in the end.

Iracundus wrote:


It said Maugan Ra "guided what was left of his craftworld out of the Eye of Terror". In the Eye of Terror campaign, Altansar forces were shown intervening in favor of the Eldar in the crone world warzones, so Altansar was still intact, but unable to find the way out somehow due to the effects of the Eye or Chaos warp magic. Guiding the way out is a believable achievement for one individual to make. However in this case, Maugan-Ra was not alone, and was accompanied by disciples.

I have reproduced the relevant section here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/531298.page

I've always found that to be interesting as the eye of terror = the warp/realspace overlap. Eldar in the warp get munched by slaanesh. Unless Maugan-Ra decides to come and get you out of the warp. Maugan-Ra being alone or having a retinue doesn't change the fact that his craftworld spent about 40,000 years in the warp (I may not have the dates right - fall of the eldar/end of warps storms to the present)

But that wasn't why I brought this up - it was just to show another eldar victory. The eldar don't always lose, especially when the phoenix lords are involved

That is an excellent post you've linked - exalted

The Phoenix Lords are my favourite characters in the whole of 40k. Do you have any more fluff exploits for the rest of them?
I know Karandras went up against Ahra (codexs)
Jain Zar fought against the Night Lords (ADB's night Lords trilogy)

 MWHistorian wrote:
You think Eldar lose a lot?
Try being a Sisters of Battle player. Their fluff is nothing but them getting flat out slaughtered.

So who are these Sisters of Battle I keep reading about here? I cant seem to find a codex for them on the GW website?

JWhex wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
You think Eldar lose a lot?
Try being a Sisters of Battle player. Their fluff is nothing but them getting flat out slaughtered.

So who are these Sisters of Battle I keep reading about here? I cant seem to find a codex for them on the GW website?

Look harder:

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/landingArmy.jsp?catId=cat660002a&rootCatGameStyle=wh40k

The reason why you can't find a codex for them is because it hasn't been written. The only update they have received was in a White Dwarf that's no longer in circulation.
Before the WD, they were in Codex: Witchhunters.

Oh, stories about phoenix lords? How about Karandras in path of the warrior? Yeah. That was an interesting battle. He got his arse handed to him by a dreadnought, right :p

And don't remind us of Maugan-Ra. Look up his latest fluff in the Maugetar e-book. -_-"

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

JWhex wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
You think Eldar lose a lot?
Try being a Sisters of Battle player. Their fluff is nothing but them getting flat out slaughtered.

So who are these Sisters of Battle I keep reading about here? I cant seem to find a codex for them on the GW website?

Look harder:

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/landingArmy.jsp?catId=cat660002a&rootCatGameStyle=wh40k

The reason why you can't find a codex for them is because it hasn't been written. The only update they have received was in a White Dwarf that's no longer in circulation.
Before the WD, they were in Codex: Witchhunters.

But if they always get slaughtered is it a good idea to buy all those really expensive metal models?

 Enigma wrote:
Oh, stories about phoenix lords? How about Karandras in path of the warrior? Yeah. That was an interesting battle. He got his arse handed to him by a dreadnought, right :p

Karandras in that particular book deliberately sacrificed himself to save another character who was a reformed Dark Eldar. That he turned aside from the Dark Eldar ways to adopt the Path system is a symbolic victory for the Craftworld way of life, and Karandras took the hit that was meant for that character. Intentional sacrifices are not the same as losing. Also the ending of the book shows Karandras revived and running back towards the action in order to take revenge.

Didn't Karandras punch his way through a Tomb world?

 Kain wrote:
Didn't Karandras punch his way through a Tomb world?

Not quite. In WD 236, there is a short story by Gav Thorpe depicting a grievously wounded Karandras arriving at a craftworld. An exarch greets him and Karandras uses him to heal himself. In the process, the Exarch briefly experiences snatches of Karandras's memories before being absorbed and losing his sense of self. In one of those brief snatches of memories, Karandras is moving along some sort of shaft or tunnel and vowing that he would prevent the Necrons (presumably of that particular tomb) from awakening. The outcome is unknown as then it jumped to another memory.

Iracundus wrote:

 Enigma wrote:
Oh, stories about phoenix lords? How about Karandras in path of the warrior? Yeah. That was an interesting battle. He got his arse handed to him by a dreadnought, right :p

Karandras in that particular book deliberately sacrificed himself to save another character who was a reformed Dark Eldar. That he turned aside from the Dark Eldar ways to adopt the Path system is a symbolic victory for the Craftworld way of life, and Karandras took the hit that was meant for that character. Intentional sacrifices are not the same as losing. Also the ending of the book shows Karandras revived and running back towards the action in order to take revenge.

Heh, yeah I remember, at the time it just felt sad that he was "killed" by such a "mundane" thing as a simple dreadnought
But yes, saving the dark eldar was very important in its own context.

 Enigma wrote:

Iracundus wrote:

 Enigma wrote:
Oh, stories about phoenix lords? How about Karandras in path of the warrior? Yeah. That was an interesting battle. He got his arse handed to him by a dreadnought, right :p

Karandras in that particular book deliberately sacrificed himself to save another character who was a reformed Dark Eldar. That he turned aside from the Dark Eldar ways to adopt the Path system is a symbolic victory for the Craftworld way of life, and Karandras took the hit that was meant for that character. Intentional sacrifices are not the same as losing. Also the ending of the book shows Karandras revived and running back towards the action in order to take revenge.

Heh, yeah I remember, at the time it just felt sad that he was "killed" by such a "mundane" thing as a simple dreadnought
But yes, saving the dark eldar was very important in its own context.

Jain Zar got stepped on by one against the night lords... Thats more embarrasing...

In that particular book, Jain Zar wiped all the Night Lords in power armor virtually single handedly and demonstrated a technique of whirling her Blade of Destruction in a manner that allowed her to block a good portion of the bolter rounds fired her way. That ability was a nice addition in the same way that the WD article on Maugan Ra showed he had the mystic ability to root himself immovably to the ground at will. Similarly, the Apocalypse formation Shadow Sect of Karandras showed Karandras with the ability to lead squads of Scorpions from one shadowed place to another shadowed place without passing through the intervening space. These more esoteric mystic abilities help the image of the Phoenix Lords as supernatural immortal martial artists.

Iracundus wrote:
In that particular book, Jain Zar wiped all the Night Lords in power armor virtually single handedly and demonstrated a technique of whirling her Blade of Destruction in a manner that allowed her to block a good portion of the bolter rounds fired her way. That ability was a nice addition in the same way that the WD article on Maugan Ra showed he had the mystic ability to root himself immovably to the ground at will. Similarly, the Apocalypse formation Shadow Sect of Karandras showed Karandras with the ability to lead squads of Scorpions from one shadowed place to another shadowed place without passing through the intervening space. These more esoteric mystic abilities help the image of the Phoenix Lords as supernatural immortal martial artists.

Yes I know, but it still makes me laugh

Mercution stabbed her in the leg, Talos suicide bombed her, then the dread who's name I forget stepped on her. As its the night lords, I liked the deliberately direspectful way of finishing Jain Zar off. It fit their style IMO.

Have you got any fluff for Fuegan, Asurmen or Baharroth doing similar feats?

Baharroth's feat is given in the Apocalypse formation Tempest of Baharroth where he can fly high enough to drop his grenades in a mode that has them be aerial mines for aircraft, essentially allowing him to assault them with haywire grenades by dropping them in their projected flight path.

The book at least got the incredible speed of Phoenix Lords right with one of the Night Lords moving faster than he had ever moved before in his life in an attempt to dodge a fatal strike from the Silent Death, and it still wasn't enough. At Phoenix Lord Initiative 7, really they shouldn't even know what hit them.

Iracundus wrote:
Baharroth's feat is given in the Apocalypse formation Tempest of Baharroth where he can fly high enough to drop his grenades in a mode that has them be aerial mines for aircraft, essentially allowing him to assault them with haywire grenades by dropping them in their projected flight path.

That just doesn't seem as cool as becoming the immovable object or deflecting explosives with a sword.

Is that in the new apoc book or is that an old one?

I find that the 'point of view' of most of the writing for the Eldar is from that of the Imperial perspective. Not saying propoganda, but it is doubtful the Imperials see the true nature of the Eldar objective.

The 'dead in masses' Eldar could have been figments created by Farseers while the real Eldar strikeforce got their person/object and left.

But overall, the writers of some Codexes really do throw serious fanboi writing into play and show their complete lack of writing ability when they do things like make Eldar fight a protracted linear battle....so the only possible assumption to make is that it is from the Imperial perspective and heavily flawed.

PredaKhaine wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
Baharroth's feat is given in the Apocalypse formation Tempest of Baharroth where he can fly high enough to drop his grenades in a mode that has them be aerial mines for aircraft, essentially allowing him to assault them with haywire grenades by dropping them in their projected flight path.

That just doesn't seem as cool as becoming the immovable object or deflecting explosives with a sword.

Is that in the new apoc book or is that an old one?

Apocalypse Reload p. 32, Baharroth's Tempest

It only seems less impressive because it is less of a classic martial arts thing. Think about what it involves: shooting up in essentially a jet pack and be fast and accurate enough to put yourself in front of an aircraft's flight path and drop your grenades at the exact moment you cross its projected path such that the aircraft will fly into them but you are not hit by the aircraft.

It sounds better when you put it like that

Thanks - I never bought reload so I didn't know about that one.

Hmm, everybody, (Including GW it seems) has forgotten about the book Farseer by William King where the Rogue trader Janus Darke together with a Farseer of Ulthwe track down a sword forged with the express purpose of ending Slaneesh...
I loved that book

Also, for those who think that Avatar's of Khaine always loose, try reading Shadow Point by Gorden Rennie...

Hangover101 wrote:
Hmm, everybody, (Including GW it seems) has forgotten about the book Farseer by William King where the Rogue trader Janus Darke together with a Farseer of Ulthwe track down a sword forged with the express purpose of ending Slaneesh...
I loved that book

Also, for those who think that Avatar's of Khaine always loose, try reading Shadow Point by Gorden Rennie...

I believe that they're being hyperbolic for effect when they say "always" but the Eldar lose an inordinate number of times ever since the Imperial Guard stopped being the standard whipping boys of the fluff.

 Kain wrote:

I believe that they're being hyperbolic for effect when they say "always" but the Eldar lose an inordinate number of times ever since the Imperial Guard stopped being the standard whipping boys of the fluff.

Nah. They don't. Tyranids and Chaos lose and inordinate number of times. Space Marines and, especially, the Guard (recently) win an inordinate number of times.

Eldar are about as close to the ideal balance of victories/defeats/pyrrhic victories as it'll ever get. They are fine.

 Zweischneid wrote:

 Kain wrote:

I believe that they're being hyperbolic for effect when they say "always" but the Eldar lose an inordinate number of times ever since the Imperial Guard stopped being the standard whipping boys of the fluff.

Nah. They don't. Tyranids and Chaos lose and inordinate number of times. Space Marines and, especially, the Guard (recently) win an inordinate number of times.

Eldar are about as close to the ideal balance of victories/defeats/pyrrhic victories as it'll ever get. They are fine.

The fact that the Eldar are a dying race is not helped by the fact that Khaela Mensha Khaine gets punked every time he shows up and the Eldar can't ever fight without losing massive numbers of Elves.

Other factions can get easy victories, even factions who don't care about losing large numbers of corpses, like Orks, Tyranids, Imperial Guard, and Chaos. But the Eldar? Can't win without losing a big heap of the craftworld's population.

They should make the Eldar into more of a similar race such as the Vorlons or Minbari from Babylon 5. Basically where they are advanced and very superior, but generally keep to themselves. In fact I always imagined the Minbari ship design and stealth tech to be very similar to How Eldar should be!

Mellow wrote:
They should make the Eldar into more of a similar race such as the Vorlons or Minbari from Babylon 5. Basically where they are advanced and very superior, but generally keep to themselves. In fact I always imagined the Minbari ship design and stealth tech to be very similar to How Eldar should be!

Except Necrontyr technology is objectively superior to Eldar technology in most areas, especially concerning war..

 Zweischneid wrote:

especially, the Guard (recently) win an inordinate number of times.

? See all the FW books, I think Vraks is the only one where the Imperium does not get slaughtered and its a phyrric victory, some of the entries in the IG codex are pretty minor victories, like the Death Korps removing a city from existence.

I think a lot of people here are missing the point of Eldar.. they're old enough to know they can loose many battles... as long as they win the war... and 40K is one big war...
Sacrificing noble Eldar siblings is not just regrettable and lamentable but also grating on the nerves of leaders... they all knew exactly what they were signing up for when they donned they're armour, and few have been steered wrong by the farseers (Iyanden vs 'Nids being a notable exception).
Although it chafes to loose 'breeders' its more important to take out the single leader/ objective that will spell certain doom for the entire craftworld not just the warriors...

 Kain wrote:


Other factions can get easy victories, even factions who don't care about losing large numbers of corpses, like Orks, Tyranids, Imperial Guard, and Chaos. But the Eldar? Can't win without losing a big heap of the craftworld's population.

There are no easy victories in 40K.

Every single battle ever fought in 40K is always closely-fought, bloody and bought at dire costs, decided only in the last minute by some improbably heroics and/or event. Comes with the territory.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:

especially, the Guard (recently) win an inordinate number of times.

? See all the FW books, I think Vraks is the only one where the Imperium does not get slaughtered and its a phyrric victory, some of the entries in the IG codex are pretty minor victories, like the Death Korps removing a city from existence.

How about when Vostroyan Firstborn Guardsman starve (!) Tyranids to Death to save a planet. Ya know, the "we-consume-ever-last-shred-of-biological-matter-on-a-planets-race" vs. Vostroyan's Iron Rations? Should be clear who wins. Or what about random Guardsman special characters snapping the necks of -Truck-Sized-Tyranid big-beasts with their bare hands? Etc.. .

 Zweischneid wrote:

 Kain wrote:


Other factions can get easy victories, even factions who don't care about losing large numbers of corpses, like Orks, Tyranids, Imperial Guard, and Chaos. But the Eldar? Can't win without losing a big heap of the craftworld's population.

There are no easy victories in 40K.

Every single battle ever fought in 40K is always closely-fought, bloody and bought at dire costs, decided only in the last minute by some improbably heroics and/or event. Comes with the territory.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:

especially, the Guard (recently) win an inordinate number of times.

? See all the FW books, I think Vraks is the only one where the Imperium does not get slaughtered and its a phyrric victory, some of the entries in the IG codex are pretty minor victories, like the Death Korps removing a city from existence.

How about when Vostroyan Firstborn Guardsman starve (!) Tyranids to Death to save a planet. Ya know, the "we-consume-ever-last-shred-of-biological-matter-on-a-planets-race" vs. Vostroyan's Iron Rations? Should be clear who wins. Or what about random Guardsman special characters snapping the necks of -Truck-Sized-Tyranid big-beasts with their bare hands? Etc.. .

Nonsense, the Death Shadows at Sybari were wiped out by Hive Fleet Behemoth so fast that the Chaos Space Marines only got a foot note.

Forgefane; an ancient Iron Warriors fortress world with at least a thousand Chaos Space Marines, millions of cultists and daemon engines and traitor guard, and defenses and fleets that had seen off ten thousand years of attack; falls and crumbles within a week of assault from Leviathan.

The bloody hundred assault by the Necrons of the Maynarch dynasty: Dozens of worlds fell to the Necrons in mere days despite the Imperials having an overwhelming numerical advantage. The Imperials were defeated so quickly that they couldn't even tell other worlds of the Orpheus sector what exactly was kicking their asses until the Necrons stopped at the capital world and purposely allowed the Imperium a breather to gather it's forces for honorable combat.

Battle of Scalex VI: The Orks rather quickly overwhelm the Imperium until the AdMech drags out a warlord titan, then Wazdakka crashes through the windows and kills the Titan's crew, ensuring rapid imperial defeat.

Battle of Golgotha: Orks rapidly overwhelm a crucial world within a matter of weeks, outwitting the imperial defenders and claiming victory. Yarrick tries to intervene, Yarrick promptly gets stomped and only released because Gazghkull thinks he's fun.

Shall I go on?

 Kain wrote:
Shall I go on?

Yes - I'm finding these interesting

 Kain wrote:


How about when Vostroyan Firstborn Guardsman starve (!) Tyranids to Death to save a planet. Ya know, the "we-consume-ever-last-shred-of-biological-matter-on-a-planets-race" vs. Vostroyan's Iron Rations? Should be clear who wins. Or what about random Guardsman special characters snapping the necks of -Truck-Sized-Tyranid big-beasts with their bare hands? Etc.. .
Nonsense, the Death Shadows at Sybari were wiped out by Hive Fleet Behemoth so fast that the Chaos Space Marines only got a foot note.

Forgefane; an ancient Iron Warriors fortress world with at least a thousand Chaos Space Marines, millions of cultists and daemon engines and traitor guard, and defenses and fleets that had seen off ten thousand years of attack; falls and crumbles within a week of assault from Leviathan.

The bloody hundred assault by the Necrons of the Maynarch dynasty: Dozens of worlds fell to the Necrons in mere days despite the Imperials having an overwhelming numerical advantage. The Imperials were defeated so quickly that they couldn't even tell other worlds of the Orpheus sector what exactly was kicking their asses until the Necrons stopped at the capital world and purposely allowed the Imperium a breather to gather it's forces for honorable combat.

Battle of Scalex VI: The Orks rather quickly overwhelm the Imperium until the AdMech drags out a warlord titan, then Wazdakka crashes through the windows and kills the Titan's crew, ensuring rapid imperial defeat.

Battle of Golgotha: Orks rapidly overwhelm a crucial world within a matter of weeks, outwitting the imperial defenders and claiming victory. Yarrick tries to intervene, Yarrick promptly gets stomped and only released because Gazghkull thinks he's fun.

Shall I go on?

If you wanna count these gakky "one-liner-battles", you are right. Eldar have plenty of them too. Infact, they probably have the most extreme.

Eldar Codex p. 22 wrote:
The Perfect War

Under the sludge planet of Yurk, the armies of the Ork Warlord Killfist are engaged and killed without loss by Craftworld Iyanden's grav-tank skimmers. The clockwork precision of the warhost's attack prevents the Yurkoid Waaagh! altogether and saves a virgin Eldar colony from destruction in the process.

Also, you know, Maugan Ra stands along against the Swarm, and triumphs

Generally Eldar are a bunch of arrogant tossers the whole superiority when they fethed up the entire galaxy through their stupidity never gets old, I actually love hearing stories when the pointy eared gits get annihilated, the whole undying phoenix lords is a bit dumb. Don't forget Eldrad after all through his actions he made it so Ghazghkull could gain so much power plus he seems to have prevented every major disaster for the eldar apart from the disasters that actually mattered like the necrons returning, nids eating everything, clagar fisting an avatar plus every other misfortune the pointy one suffered which could of been prevented as well as killing Fulgrim by their superior all knowing powers.

Oh yeah Fuegan also scoured a swath of daemon lords with his firepike and killed dozens with his axe whilst fighting alongside eldrad
PG 59 6th eldar codex

You would think that a race that has been star faring for MILLIONS of years would be able to wipe the floor with everyone else who has only been around for THOUSANDS of years. (except the Necrons naturally)

The Eldar are just dumb/rubbish.

Iracundus wrote:

PredaKhaine wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
Baharroth's feat is given in the Apocalypse formation Tempest of Baharroth where he can fly high enough to drop his grenades in a mode that has them be aerial mines for aircraft, essentially allowing him to assault them with haywire grenades by dropping them in their projected flight path.

That just doesn't seem as cool as becoming the immovable object or deflecting explosives with a sword.

Is that in the new apoc book or is that an old one?

Apocalypse Reload p. 32, Baharroth's Tempest

It only seems less impressive because it is less of a classic martial arts thing. Think about what it involves: shooting up in essentially a jet pack and be fast and accurate enough to put yourself in front of an aircraft's flight path and drop your grenades at the exact moment you cross its projected path such that the aircraft will fly into them but you are not hit by the aircraft.

Basically he's doing this:

He's doing better than that.
He's jetpacking through the air fast enough to make himself a difficult target whilst at the same time throwing grenades at jets that move incredibly fast.
That's like hitting a supersonic bullet with a smaller pebble while flying through the air.

Yea, try hitting a flying bird with a rock and then imagine that bird flying 100 times as fast.

(note: Don't actually do this. Poor birds)

Mellow wrote:
You would think that a race that has been star faring for MILLIONS of years would be able to wipe the floor with everyone else who has only been around for THOUSANDS of years. (except the Necrons naturally)

The Eldar are just dumb/rubbish.

The Orks are also millions of years old, having been created along with the Eldar to fight the Necrons. The Tyranids are billions of years old as per their codex and have already won at least twelve times in other galaxies.

Mellow wrote:
You would think that a race that has been star faring for MILLIONS of years would be able to wipe the floor with everyone else who has only been around for THOUSANDS of years. (except the Necrons naturally)

The Eldar are just dumb/rubbish.

Yup. Cause older civilizations > younger civilizations. The same reasons our world is ruled by Greeks and Egyptians, who'll easily clobber all those naughty young upstarts who've barely been around for just a few hundred years at a moment's notice.

There are older civilizations than Greeks and Egyptians-- most of whom Mellow has never even heard of

 Melissia wrote:
There are older civilizations than Greeks and Egyptians

Well, for the Egyptians I'm not sure if you could find anyone but the Sumerians.

There's plenty that few outside of historians know about. For example, you realize that humans reached the southern tip of South America at least seven thousand years before ancient Egypt coalesced in to a civilization?

The real problem here is this:

Every faction hands a pamphlet to you, it's player.
This pamphlet explains how the war is going to end for the faction. It explains how the faction is going to get there. And it gives the stories of how this has been done.

The Tyranid faction states "in the end, your faction will eat everything" and then states that "we will get there because even though we suffer enormous losses, they are insignificant to our advance" and then it gives fluff which shows them eating planets inspite of heroic last stands impossible rescues, and so on.

The Space Marine faction(s) states "we will defend humanity to the bitter end" and then states "we defend humanity through our superior skill and honour and we will fight our inner demons" and then gives stories of heroic last stands and where the inner demons cause problems.

The Eldar faction states "we are doomed and destined to die" and then states "through manipulation of our enemies and a discipline unimaginable we can open doors that are impossibly locked to avoid our destiny" and then proceeds to tell stories of how the Eldar fail at manipulating events, succumb to avarice and greed, make uninformed decisions, and commit to battles where the gain clearly isn't worth the price regardless of the outcome of the battle.

Sadly, the fluff writers seem to feel a need to humanize the bad guys or something. With Eldar you need to dehumanize them to get the feel right.

 Melissia wrote:
There's plenty that few outside of historians know about. For example, you realize that humans reached the southern tip of South America at least seven thousand years before ancient Egypt coalesced in to a civilization?

Well, could they write? Because otherwise Sumer is probably going to remain the "first" civilization in most textbooks.

Don't make me get in to a debate on the nature of writing vs proto-writing.

 Melissia wrote:
Don't make me get in to a debate on the nature of writing vs proto-writing.

Well if the arguments on Civfanatics are anything to go by, you're only a real civilization if you get featured in a Civ Game. Which means that pre-colonial Hawaii is more legit than Poland.

Edit: God damn it Firaxis, you and your Brave new world expansion ruined my joke.

 Kain wrote:

Mellow wrote:
You would think that a race that has been star faring for MILLIONS of years would be able to wipe the floor with everyone else who has only been around for THOUSANDS of years. (except the Necrons naturally)

The Eldar are just dumb/rubbish.

The Orks are also millions of years old, having been created along with the Eldar to fight the Necrons. The Tyranids are billions of years old as per their codex and have already won at least twelve times in other galaxies.

Which Codex mentions them eating 12 other galaxies? 3rd? Would you be allowed to share a synopsis of the story?

"Behind the Hive Fleets lie the barren husks of a dozen galaxies already consumed." - p. 166, 5th edition rulebook

It is an omniscient narrator POV giving that quote on the background blurb on Tyranids. Tyranids don't communicate with other races and have no need for propaganda so neither of those explanations can be used to write off that quote.

Iracundus wrote:

"Behind the Hive Fleets lie the barren husks of a dozen galaxies already consumed." - p. 166, 5th edition rulebook

It is an omniscient narrator POV giving that quote on the background blurb on Tyranids. Tyranids don't communicate with other races and have no need for propaganda so neither of those explanations can be used to write off that quote.

Very interesting. Thanks for sharing.

 Melissia wrote:
There are older civilizations than Greeks and Egyptians-- most of whom Mellow has never even heard of

Yes, but I feel it's a slightly different situation when said races have already developed the means to travel vast distances through space.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Iracundus wrote:

"Behind the Hive Fleets lie the barren husks of a dozen galaxies already consumed." - p. 166, 5th edition rulebook

It is an omniscient narrator POV giving that quote on the background blurb on Tyranids. Tyranids don't communicate with other races and have no need for propaganda so neither of those explanations can be used to write off that quote.

12 seems like an awful lot given the actual size of a galaxy and the apparent number of species in the 40k Milky Way

Mellow wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
There are older civilizations than Greeks and Egyptians-- most of whom Mellow has never even heard of

Yes, but I feel it's a slightly different situation when said races have already developed the means to travel vast distances through space.

Good for you.

But there is a difference between saying

"You would think that a race ....."

And

"I feel it's a slightly different situation..."

If you had made it clear in your original post that you have an opinion that deviates from what most people would assume, based on the historic references we have (i.e. Empires rise and (!) fall, and not infrequently by succumbing to decadence) and which obviously also inspired the Elder (or, more correctly, every depiction of Elves, Eldar Races in Sci-Fantasy and Fantasy Fiction ever), as well as providing a couple of paragraphs of compelling arguments of why you think this incredibly common fictional trope, which is also directly inspired by a very consistent actual historical pattern, should not apply to the Eldar in Warhammer 40K, we'd be having a far more interesting discussion.

Mellow wrote:

12 seems like an awful lot given the actual size of a galaxy and the apparent number of species in the 40k Milky Way

The nearest Galaxies to the Milky Way are small, mini-galaxies and there are a large number of them. The nearest 'major' Galaxy, Andromeda is such a long distance away the Tyranids would never have made it to the Milky Way before starving. If some hive fleet Tendrils can be 'starved out' in the Milky Way in any way at all, the astronomically larger distance to Andromeda would clearly be impossible for them to traverse, looking at the size difference and the fact they move slower than the Milky Way Natives do.

So it's likely the Tyranids cleared their mini-clusters of any life and biomass and are moving to the large Galaxy proper, to play with the big boys.

 Daba wrote:

Mellow wrote:

12 seems like an awful lot given the actual size of a galaxy and the apparent number of species in the 40k Milky Way

The nearest Galaxies to the Milky Way are small, mini-galaxies and there are a large number of them. The nearest 'major' Galaxy, Andromeda is such a long distance away the Tyranids would never have made it to the Milky Way before starving. If some hive fleet Tendrils can be 'starved out' in the Milky Way in any way at all, the astronomically larger distance to Andromeda would clearly be impossible for them to traverse, looking at the size difference and the fact they move slower than the Milky Way Natives do.

So it's likely the Tyranids cleared their mini-clusters of any life and biomass and are moving to the large Galaxy proper, to play with the big boys.

Given that GW neither really considers the implications of what it writes and always writes for the maximum cool factor, it's just as likely that they devoured twelve major galaxies and didn't even count the satellite galaxies as being real entities (I mean, to most people it's just the Milky Way, Andromeda, and occasionally the Triangulum).

Addittionally, as Tyranid FTL is gravity based, locking on to an entire galaxy may give them a substantial speed boost.

 Kain wrote:

Given that GW neither really considers the implications of what it writes and always writes for the maximum cool factor, it's just as likely that they devoured twelve major galaxies and didn't even count the satellite galaxies as being real entities (I mean, to most people it's just the Milky Way, Andromeda, and occasionally the Triangulum).

Addittionally, as Tyranid FTL is gravity based, locking on to an entire galaxy may give them a substantial speed boost.

They should really revert that because it (A) weakens the setting and (B) makes little sense as an FTL; in actuality the Tyranids would get better propulsion through farting. Literally.

Using the gravity of a far off object is like cooking your dinner with a candle in the middle of a field, 10+ miles away from you.

 Daba wrote:

 Kain wrote:

Given that GW neither really considers the implications of what it writes and always writes for the maximum cool factor, it's just as likely that they devoured twelve major galaxies and didn't even count the satellite galaxies as being real entities (I mean, to most people it's just the Milky Way, Andromeda, and occasionally the Triangulum).

Addittionally, as Tyranid FTL is gravity based, locking on to an entire galaxy may give them a substantial speed boost.

They should really revert that because it (A) weakens the setting and (B) makes little sense as an FTL; in actuality the Tyranids would get better propulsion through farting. Literally.

Using the gravity of a far off object is like cooking your dinner with a candle in the middle of a field, 10+ miles away from you.

The alternatives are to give the Tyranids straight up warp travel or invent yet another entirely new FTL system...and that's about it because no FTL makes no sense and the webway existing other galaxies is stupid, especially when the Tyranids predate the Old Ones by several billion years.

And how does the Tyranids having their own FTL weaken the setting?

Tyranids just eat up the distance. Yummy

And there they are!!!

 Kain wrote:

The alternatives are to give the Tyranids straight up warp travel or invent yet another entirely new FTL system...and that's about it because no FTL makes no sense and the webway existing other galaxies is stupid, especially when the Tyranids predate the Old Ones by several billion years.

And how does the Tyranids having their own FTL weaken the setting?

The Warp is pretty fundamental and central to the 40k setting. The entire universe and the fact Space Travel was possible for the sentient races (before) was because of the Warp. It was the fundamental constant that allowed it to behave outside of 'normal' science which is normally only stretched by sci-fi stuff. Even the Necrons (who may or may not use it, depending on what their gates actually are) are in the position because of their relationship with the Warp and Warp-utilising races.

It would be better if they used straight Warp travel (the Tyranid have minds and even psykers so can affect the Warp already), and the Webway is just one of the utilisations of the warp.

In fact, there's nothing wrong with straight up Warp travel and it would be better if all the FTL in the setting were tied to it in some way, as it is an important unifying concept in the 40k mythos.

 Daba wrote:

 Kain wrote:

The alternatives are to give the Tyranids straight up warp travel or invent yet another entirely new FTL system...and that's about it because no FTL makes no sense and the webway existing other galaxies is stupid, especially when the Tyranids predate the Old Ones by several billion years.

And how does the Tyranids having their own FTL weaken the setting?

The Warp is pretty fundamental and central to the 40k setting. The entire universe and the fact Space Travel was possible for the sentient races (before) was because of the Warp. It was the fundamental constant that allowed it to behave outside of 'normal' science which is normally only stretched by sci-fi stuff. Even the Necrons (who may or may not use it, depending on what their gates actually are) are in the position because of their relationship with the Warp and Warp-utilising races.

It would be better if they used straight Warp travel (the Tyranid have minds and even psykers so can affect the Warp already), and the Webway is just one of the utilisations of the warp.

In fact, there's nothing wrong with straight up Warp travel and it would be better if all the FTL in the setting were tied to it in some way, as it is an important unifying concept in the 40k mythos.

The necrons have inertialess drives again as of IA12 (though they are slower than the Dolmen Gates, but still faster than Imperial Warp travel), but the Necron's big thing is that they have nothing to do with the warp.

I've found that when i read about the Eldar I get one of two things:

1) "Just as planned". Someone mentioned this earlier (credit to you) and I have to agree. They appear, murder some stupid amount of some random faction, destroy or steal whatever they came for and disappear. Some of the more annoying ones don't even say what they were trying to do.

2)"Tactical Genius'd". OK, so reading about how Creed outmaneuvered an Eldar warhost made me raise an eyebrow. I know, i know, Creed and all, but the number of times I've read about how the Eldar constantly get out done by the Imperium are sort of silly.

Overall? I think a race that is as old as the Eldar, proclaimed to be the wisest of all, and according to their fluff, wield some of the most devastating weaponry in the galaxy...would be a tad more scary, both in the fluff and on the table. For godsakes, their guns shoot razor-sharp glass, and the IG have laser-rifles...need I say more?

 Kain wrote:

 Daba wrote:

 Kain wrote:

The alternatives are to give the Tyranids straight up warp travel or invent yet another entirely new FTL system...and that's about it because no FTL makes no sense and the webway existing other galaxies is stupid, especially when the Tyranids predate the Old Ones by several billion years.

And how does the Tyranids having their own FTL weaken the setting?

The Warp is pretty fundamental and central to the 40k setting. The entire universe and the fact Space Travel was possible for the sentient races (before) was because of the Warp. It was the fundamental constant that allowed it to behave outside of 'normal' science which is normally only stretched by sci-fi stuff. Even the Necrons (who may or may not use it, depending on what their gates actually are) are in the position because of their relationship with the Warp and Warp-utilising races.

It would be better if they used straight Warp travel (the Tyranid have minds and even psykers so can affect the Warp already), and the Webway is just one of the utilisations of the warp.

In fact, there's nothing wrong with straight up Warp travel and it would be better if all the FTL in the setting were tied to it in some way, as it is an important unifying concept in the 40k mythos.

The necrons have inertialess drives again as of IA12 (though they are slower than the Dolmen Gates, but still faster than Imperial Warp travel), but the Necron's big thing is that they have nothing to do with the warp.

Yeah, but with the Necrons it still arises from jealousy of Warp users. (but it would have been better if they were an STL race before Dolmens, Inertialess [which isn't unique to Necrons, Eldar Darkstar Fighters use them too] should have been left as sublight.)

 Kain wrote:

The necrons have inertialess drives again as of IA12 (though they are slower than the Dolmen Gates, but still faster than Imperial Warp travel), but the Necron's big thing is that they have nothing to do with the warp.

Well, in classical special and general relativity, massless (inertialess) bodies are still constrained to move at exactly the speed of light maximum, which is still pretty damn slow for intra- and especially intergalactical travel in the 40K-sense of things.

Which makes inertialess drive a rather unsatisfactory explanation for FTL, unless it is inertialess drive + something else, which would likely be something warp-related again in the (meta-)physicality of the 40K-verse.

 Zweischneid wrote:

 Kain wrote:

The necrons have inertialess drives again as of IA12 (though they are slower than the Dolmen Gates, but still faster than Imperial Warp travel), but the Necron's big thing is that they have nothing to do with the warp.

Well, in classical special and general relativity, massless (inertialess) bodies are still constrained to move at exactly the speed of light maximum, which is still pretty damn slow for intra- and especially intergalactical travel in the 40K-sense of things.

Which makes inertialess drive a rather unsatisfactory explanation for FTL, unless it is inertialess drive + something else, which would likely be something warp-related again in the (meta-)physicality of the 40K-verse.

Very much agreed.

 Daba wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 Daba wrote:

 Kain wrote:

The alternatives are to give the Tyranids straight up warp travel or invent yet another entirely new FTL system...and that's about it because no FTL makes no sense and the webway existing other galaxies is stupid, especially when the Tyranids predate the Old Ones by several billion years.

And how does the Tyranids having their own FTL weaken the setting?

The Warp is pretty fundamental and central to the 40k setting. The entire universe and the fact Space Travel was possible for the sentient races (before) was because of the Warp. It was the fundamental constant that allowed it to behave outside of 'normal' science which is normally only stretched by sci-fi stuff. Even the Necrons (who may or may not use it, depending on what their gates actually are) are in the position because of their relationship with the Warp and Warp-utilising races.

It would be better if they used straight Warp travel (the Tyranid have minds and even psykers so can affect the Warp already), and the Webway is just one of the utilisations of the warp.

In fact, there's nothing wrong with straight up Warp travel and it would be better if all the FTL in the setting were tied to it in some way, as it is an important unifying concept in the 40k mythos.

The necrons have inertialess drives again as of IA12 (though they are slower than the Dolmen Gates, but still faster than Imperial Warp travel), but the Necron's big thing is that they have nothing to do with the warp.

Yeah, but with the Necrons it still arises from jealousy of Warp users. (but it would have been better if they were an STL race before Dolmens, Inertialess [which isn't unique to Necrons, Eldar Darkstar Fighters use them too] should have been left as sublight.)

It's likely that whatever metaphysics the more stable drive uses is cribbed off the C'tan. The Dolmen drive is likely just something they use for emergencies, while their more stable drive is probably for trips where having to rely on the good graces of the webway would be suicide. After all, the Necrons have to have some credible way of moving at FTL without killing themselves half the time because the Webway doesn't like their chocolate in it's peanut butter.

Bums me out how the Avatar always gets stomped, and im a Marines player too.

ConsecratedIron wrote:
Bums me out how the Avatar always gets stomped, and im a Marines player too.

Same thing happens to Titans and Emperor Class Battleships. It's a little thing called the Whorf Effect, and it would seem the Eldar are a race of Whorfs (Whorves?).

The Eldar are losing.

They are a dying race. The birth rate cannot keep up with the rate at which Eldar lives are lost much less allow them to grow.

They may win every battle, but they will lose the war. Their enemies can afford losses, the Eldar cannot.


The Eldar are filling in a classic trope. A dying race who are super advanced, but every loss makes them weaker and weaker.

Main issue is... they DON'T win every battle. If anything, they seem to be losing every battle like crazy.

It's one thing to have a dying race that's dying DESPITE winning every battle.

But when you have a dying race that's dying AND LOSING every battle, it just starts getting silly and hard to take seriously.

In their current condition, the Eldar should be effortlessly brushing aside most armies.

Dark Eldar, Necrons, Tau and Tyranids should be the only armies that Eldar consider technologically competitive enough to provide a challenge.
There doesn't seem to be much hostility between them and DE. Tau can be reasoned with and conflict with them is seldom necessary.
Which just leaves Necrons and Tyranids as armies to which the Eldar could justifiably lose battles.

I'm not sure why if seems they can't do anything right despite their psychic leadership.
I noticed that in fluff, they're all badass and ninja until they face SMs, at which point they become clumsy, foolish, slow, stupid, etc.
One minute they're dancing around Orcs, dodging bullets, decapitating Warbosses... The next they're being punched to death by a tactical marine.

GW doesn't understand that we get it. They're a dying race. That doesn't mean they should be losing left and right.
Honestly, with Farseers, they should be winning 99% of their battles. But the casualties from these encounters would be nigh irreplaceable.

They're a dying species, so, in my mind, they should be fighting an overall losing war against the younger races. It seems odd that they lose the vast majority of individual battles, but they should be losing the "war."

The battle for Iyanden was one example of GW doing it right.

The Eldar win battle after battle both in space and later on Iyanden, but they are ground down in a war of attrition.

Really that should be how Eldar of any stripe are portrayed. They should be hitting very hard and giving as good or better than they get, but if they lose it should be through attrition. Eldar Scorpions can cut their way effortlessly through Guardsmen faster than the human eye can follow, Fire Dragons intuitively pinpoint the weak points of the heaviest enemy war machines, and Eldar Warlocks and Farseers should weave mystically through hails of fire. Yet in the end the Guard can simply cross off entire regiments the way they expend ammunition and can keep fielding walls of infantry and squadrons of tanks long after the Eldar run out of ammunition or their sword arms tire. That way all factions can look good without one side having to be made to be deliberately idiotic and foolish in order to lose.

Some people at times seem to be trying to reach for some kind of inherent human specialness or redeeming strength. However it misses the point of the 40K universe. In 40K, humans are middle of the road average in most respects, fighting for survival against races either vastly more numerous, more psychically powerful, more individually tough, more individually skilled, or more united/less superstitious. Humans prevail through their numbers, determination, and faith, not through some inherent special strength. They prevail in spite of their mediocrity. They succeed because they are generalists, not because they are super special at any one area.

In most games, people like being the special "elite" hero on a hill mowing down hordes of faceless cannon fodder. This caters to the lure of being special and better than others. However in 40K, humans are the faceless cannon fodder charging that incredibly powerful figure on the hill. Orks are tougher and more numerous. Eldar faster and more skilled and use weird psychic technology. Chaos has supernatural powers and gifts. Tyranids are fast, have lethal toxins, and come in overwhelming numbers. To try and give humans some kind of inherent redeeming strength exceeding other races' strengths defeats the darkness of 40K.

Iracundus wrote:
They should be hitting very hard and giving as good or better than they get, but if they lose it should be through attrition.

The problem with this statement is that it's the Eldar's schtick to not get in fights of attrition in the first place. Iyanden was an exception because the fight was taking place on their Craftworld, but in any other situation, it's literally the Farseers' job to make sure they dpn't get in long, drawn-out fights.

 MandalorynOranj wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
They should be hitting very hard and giving as good or better than they get, but if they lose it should be through attrition.

The problem with this statement is that it's the Eldar's schtick to not get in fights of attrition in the first place. Iyanden was an exception because the fight was taking place on their Craftworld, but in any other situation, it's literally the Farseers' job to make sure they dpn't get in long, drawn-out fights.

Not all plans come off exactly as planned. Nonetheless, the Eldar are few in a galaxy swarming with threats. It is possible for them like on Iyanden to engage multiple times, win multiple times, but still come off worse due to their inability to absorb casualties. There is also the possibility of their range of maneuver being restricted due to the sheer number of the enemy. The Eldar could be forced to choose between several courses of action, and depending on their objective they may not be able to fulfill all of them due to spreading themselves out.

The Eldar appearing in any 40K universe game at all is to some extent already an indication of things not going to plan. A 40K game according to how the Eldar should be acting would be like 2000 points against 200. Overwhelming force against an area of weakness, but that hardly makes for a fair or fun game. Also GW and BL fiction tends to favor matches of brute strength resulting in one to one duels or other clashes of headbutting force, and less so the kind of hit and fade fighting that Eldar should be shown doing. I suspect at some level GW writers still feel that kind of fighting is "unfair", and it would certainly be frustrating for the Eldar's enemies though that is the whole point.

One further additional difficulty is that some of the Eldar's greatest victories are supposed to be disasters or wars that are prevented. It is a lot harder to show something that was prevented and never happened than to show a victorious war that was fought, especially if one is not writing from the Eldar POV. Look at the latest Eldar Codex. That Waagh that would have hit Idharae Craftworld? Never happened because instead Ulthwe intervention brought about the rise of Ghazghkull and he turned his attention to the Imperium. However virtually no human is aware of this and they likely would not believe such a claim unless they believe in the efficacy of Eldar divinations.

Fluff wise,
The Eldar are pretty much the most cowardly bunch, tied with Guardsmen (haha)

The Eldar are known to appear as if helping but are usually only interested in an artefact or other wanted items.
And once they either will inevitably fail their objective or achieve their objective they will retreat to the WEBWAY!

You lose because you never finish anything.

TiamatRoar wrote:
Main issue is... they DON'T win every battle. If anything, they seem to be losing every battle like crazy.

It's one thing to have a dying race that's dying DESPITE winning every battle.

But when you have a dying race that's dying AND LOSING every battle, it just starts getting silly and hard to take seriously.

What the Eldar consider losing and what everyone else considers losing is 2 different things.

When ever an Eldar falls in battle, its considered a loss. They can't afford to lose even a single eldar, yet if they do not fight they will go extinct all the more sooner. And if they fight, eldar lives will be lost.

Its a lose-lose more situation.


The eldar may win battles from their opponent's perspective, yet the eldar rue each and every exchange.

They aren't even depicted as winning battles from their opponents' views often, either. Nor are they shown to be very good at manipulating, despite the fact that they're stated to be good at it.

Eldar are a major case of "Implied Character Attribute". They're stated to be really good at manipulation, etc, but... we never actually see any cases of it in stories. Yes, they did do things like cause the 2nd war for Armegeddon to save their hive cities, which was a major "victory" in a sense, but those cases are few and far between.

Part of this is because most stories are from the IoM's perspective. However, even regarding stories from the Eldar's perspective, their victories, including the manipulation ones, seem few and far between. Really, for example, the latest set of Eldar short stories was the Carnac campaign for crying out loud. Perhaps, canon-wise, on a grand scale of things, the Eldar are winning (including things like Armegeddon where they win by never going to battle in the first place), but if so, it'd be nice to see more stories that reflect that.

I guess this makes Eldar the Abaddon of the factions? Canon-wise, Abaddon had to go through a lot to put each Black Crusade together and is actually very good at what he does (he has to be, or else he would have been transformed into a spawn long ago). But when it comes to actual stories, we only ever hear about him losing (or, what we think is losing). Though at least 6th Edition disclaimed that each Black Crusade was just a step in his greater overall scheme.

A major difference here though is as far as we can tell, Abaddon's happy with the way things are going, which helps drive home that all his "losses" weren't really losses at all. Eldar meanwhile are shown that all these losses hurt like hell and things just keep getting worse.

Or tl;dr: GW tells one thing and shows another.

All the freaking time.

To be fair, if an Eldar plan goes off without a hitch you'll probably never know they were there. And as such this doesn't make for a good story.

That depends on how the story is told.

That would make a good story from the Eldar's perspective, hearing about how they set events in motion to play out in the way they want, what precautions they took against failure, etc. Not every good story about a victory has to be about a battle.

It'd actually be a pretty neat story if handled right. There are many stories that are about pulling off the plan in movies, manga, and books that are very popular. Death Note, Ocean's Eleven, etc. These stories focus primarily on you, the viewer/reader, watching the various characters' line of thoughts and plans and how everything pulls out in the end.

However, these stories are difficult to write and probably a bit to the left of WH40k's demographic. Which is too bad cause WH40k is filled with factions and characters who allegedly pull this sort of stuff all the time (Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tzeentch followers, Alpha Legion followers, etc) but we'll rarely see any stories about it. That said, of those listed factions. the Eldar either get the most stories where they lose, or they don't have an excuse. When Tzeentch followers lose, the writers can (and often do) say "Oh, that was all part of Tzeentch's plan anyways". Dark Eldar meanwhile don't lose that often in the first place in most stories I think. Alpha Legion never has any stories or anything these days so they never win or lose. It's just the Eldar that are always lose lose lose win lose lose lose.

 Marzillius wrote:
Anyone else tired of the Eldar always losing?

Since the Fall, their creation of a new Chaos God thousands of years ago, and their general decline towards extinction as a race?



No.

Ask SoB players what they think of always losing.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Ask SoB players what they think of always losing.

As a sister of battle player I understand the Eldar pain. Now don't give me that BS about humans not being able to understand eldar pain.

To be fair, though, Eldar have always been on the receiving stick. Their creators were brutally murdered by badass robots and actual Gods.

Just look at Byzantine history. Like the Eldar, the Byzantines were always trying to manipulate the situation to their advantage. if they got into an actual fight, something had already gone wrong. When the Bulgars attacked their western provinces, they got the Cumans to attack the Bulgars and draw them off. They sent the Visagoths to attack the Goths in Italy and then rolled in afterwards and mopped up. Most of their successes don't really make the history books because they're behind the scenes and if it worked, no one but the Byzantines knew.
So, like the Eldar, when they did end up in a war, they were generally unprepared and not on ground of their choosing.

One of the main problems I see is that the IoM is a reactionary force in the 40k universe. Something bites, we punch it in the face. Something bites on the other side? Punch it in the face. There's very little actual "planning" I see the IoM doing outside of constant Defcon 4 level survival-instinct reactions on the galactic scale.

Eldar, on the other hand, should be a race *built* on the opposite principles: Planning each move down to the last movement of a singular soldier. Not only does their victory depend on it, their very survival as a race does. And here is where I think the problems with the Eldar stories comes from: The fast paced, reactionary against-all-odds kind of execution of warfare is so opposite from the slow, painstaking, far reaching plans of the Eldar that many of the authors, even if they wanted to follow this aesthetic, might actually get shot down by higher ups because it doesn't match up with the drop pod-crashing-down-just-in-the-nick-of-time tapestry woven thus far.

To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War

CloudRider wrote:
Fluff wise,
The Eldar are pretty much the most cowardly bunch, tied with Guardsmen (haha)

Dude, I know I'm digressing a bit here. But Guard? Cowardly? They face threats that give SPACE MARINES pause on a daily basis, armed with nothing but a high-powered flash-light with a bit of pointy metal stuck on the end!

IG? BALLS OF FETHING STEEL!!!!

*sigh* I'm probably just feeding a troll here.

Anyway, back to the very cool and fascinating discussion on the Eldar fluff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:
Or tl;dr: GW tells one thing and shows another.

All the freaking time.

Because the fluff-writers simply don't understand the old writer's adage about showing, not telling?

I'd say it has more to do with them being completely unable (rather than unwilling) to show, not tell, certain concepts.

Basically, it comes down to the BL writers (even the best ones, like Dan Abnett) completly lacking any grasp of sound military or political science, whether at the tactical, operational, strategic or theatre levels. Hence, they don't actually realise that they are telling us one thing and showing us another. In Battle for the Abyss for example we are repeatedly told about the how the Ultramarine Captain character is famous for tactical acumen - so much so that the World Eater, Thousand Son and Wolf characters all know how skilled he is.

Yet he repeatedly divides his forces in the face of a superior enemy, concocts suicidal plans, creates divisions within his own forces at a whim, fails significant leadershiip challenges, undermines the authority of his ranking astartes and fleet subordinates and generally stuffs up a military operation in every way it is possible to do so (including taking more than 60% casualties in a single engagement). Yet despite this, the other characters continue to regard him as a military genius and a truly talented leadership figure.

It's the same deal with the Eldar. They tell us they are manipulative masters of deception, the precision strike and the concept of "let's you and him fight". But the fluff writers have no actual concept of just what that actually entails and even less idea of how to portray it. Which is why they can only tell us the Eldar are good at this method of warfare, rather than being able to show us that they are good at it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MWHistorian wrote:
Just look at Byzantine history. Like the Eldar, the Byzantines were always trying to manipulate the situation to their advantage. if they got into an actual fight, something had already gone wrong. When the Bulgars attacked their western provinces, they got the Cumans to attack the Bulgars and draw them off. They sent the Visagoths to attack the Goths in Italy and then rolled in afterwards and mopped up. Most of their successes don't really make the history books because they're behind the scenes and if it worked, no one but the Byzantines knew.
So, like the Eldar, when they did end up in a war, they were generally unprepared and not on ground of their choosing.

That's an excellent historical analogy. But I still think my earlier statement has more to do with the way Eldar are portrayed in the setting. I'm not convinced that any of the GW staffers are politically sophisticated enough to demonstrate this concept in their writing, even though I don't doubt for a second that at least some of them will know about the Byzantine foreign policy model.

Kain strikes me as kind of a large, greenish, warty creature. There's just no reasoning with someone whose answer to every legitimate application of logic is,"No, you're wrong."

 MandalorynOranj wrote:
That would make a good story from the Eldar's perspective, hearing about how they set events in motion to play out in the way they want, what precautions they took against failure, etc. Not every good story about a victory has to be about a battle.

The main reason why they haven't been able to write a good eldar story.. One based on a military loss that hides a great long-term victory that from the view of others seem pyric..
GW just doesn't have that sort of author on staff.. They're writers are either focused on battle after battle (most of the older ones, but still see the odd pop up here/ there) The 'human element' behind the war (eisen) comedy (like cain series) or just plain 'dun dun duuuun' (most heresy books tbh).. For someone who has read a wide range of fantasy and sci-fi, GW books are equivalent to an old Steven Segal b-grade flick, alright to watch... Once.. Hardly mind-blowing

Anyway my point is 'enigmatic' races require a much more three dimensional view to get right, something that all the authors in GW just don't have the mindset right.. I mean the path series migt as well have been about a New York teenager goin through puberty... For all its depth..