What In your opinion is the greatest current chapter master. I mean not just strongest or capability in tactics but also in personality and general idea for the what needs to be done for the IOM.

Dante. No ifs, buts or maybes about it.

gilamonster wrote:
In your opinion

Calgar

MarsNZ wrote:

gilamonster wrote:
In your opinion

Calgar

Is it you, Matt?

Logan Grimnar

Grimnar (you know the guy who plays golf with GK heads is also brilliant tactican and sympathetic towards common grunts ) /thread

Logan is my personal favorite but I believe Dante is the greater overall.

tommse wrote:

MarsNZ wrote:

gilamonster wrote:
In your opinion

Calgar

Is it you, Matt?

I lol'd.

I'm a bit of an Asterion Moloc fanboy. Awesome model, great fluff, and a pretty competitive stat line and rules as far as Chapter Masters go. I don't think many would want to tangle with him in a fight, especially since his fluff dictates that he and his chapter are employed pretty much exclusively to hunt down and kill other Space Marines.

Dante. Why? 2nd War for Armageddon. Dante turns up and the both Calgar and Tu'Shan asked him to take charge. I doubt that would happen for any other Chapter Master.

Dante.

Dante or Logan Grimnar for me, I wish GW would give us more details about the other chapter masters though.

For me, Pedro Kantor.

Space Mexicans ftw!

But on a more serious note, Kantor could have disbanded the CF because of their losses, instead he decided to keep together, attempt to rebuild all while destroying the enemies of mankind with power fists and storm bolters

BlackSanguinor wrote:
Dante. Why? 2nd War for Armageddon. Dante turns up and the both Calgar and Tu'Shan asked him to take charge. I doubt that would happen for any other Chapter Master.

Calgar and Tu'Shan bowed to his seniority, of course he must be better than them because he is older than both of them combined.

However, back in 2nd edition (long before Ward came along) Calgar had a higher strategy rating than Dante, because altho Dante was older he generally favoured a less subtle, less thought out way of doing things.

SerQuintus wrote:

BlackSanguinor wrote:
Dante. Why? 2nd War for Armageddon. Dante turns up and the both Calgar and Tu'Shan asked him to take charge. I doubt that would happen for any other Chapter Master.

Calgar and Tu'Shan bowed to his seniority, of course he must be better than them because he is older than both of them combined.

However, back in 2nd edition (long before Ward came along) Calgar had a higher strategy rating than Dante, because altho Dante was older he generally favoured a less subtle, less thought out way of doing things.

I don't think second ed strategy ratings count for that much. In 2nd Ed, the space wolves lord Kyrl Grimblood had a strategy rating of 6. To this day, I'm still not sure why

Anyways for me -

Grimnar = Favourite
Dante = Greatest

The fanboi in me wants to say Stibor Lazaerek if he is alive and with his surviving Fire Hawks now known as the Legion of the Damned.

Aside from that, I'd say Grimnar or Dante even though I am a Dark Angels guy myself....Azrael just doesn't have the fluff to make him quite as awesome.

Vladamir Pugh, anyone who wields 2 Thunder Hammers is aces in my book.

Grimnar without a doubt

 Brother Sergeant Bob wrote:
Vladamir Pugh, anyone who wields 2 Thunder Hammers is aces in my book.

Imperial Fists are my favorite Chapter, but I don't think Pugh really qualifies with how inexperienced he is.

Lord Magyar of the mortifactors is also one of my favorites he's 700 years old and wears bone I think he'd have potential as maybe top 5.

Dante most likely

I am suprised that no one has said helbrecht though

gilamonster wrote:
I am suprised that no one has said helbrecht though

Helbrecht is pretty awesome, but he just doesn't match up to the other big names.

Logan Grimnar, no 2 doubts in my mind.

I change my answer. There is only 1 right answer.

And he is BAWLD AND FEWLISH! Tis Gabriel Angelos.

Light Huron. He has the smarts to do what's right.

 Eetion wrote:
Light Huron. He has the smarts to do what's right.

Well that's good for him. I'm sure he and his no name chapter are very proud of what they did.

But what about Lufgt Huron?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Deadshot wrote:
I change my answer. There is only 1 right answer.

And he is BAWLD AND FEWLISH! Tis Gabriel Angelos.

Gabe very much has a full head of hair.

^ Not after Kyras trimed his hair ... Kidding, he has a BLOCK haircut ofc..


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Eetion wrote:
Light Huron. He has the smarts to do what's right.

O the good old light....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:
The fanboi in me wants to say Stibor Lazaerek if he is alive and with his surviving Fire Hawks now known as the Legion of the Damned.

He is Hungarian?

I'll throw in another vote for Dante. Though to be honest it is very close between him and Logan Grimnar.

I want to like Angelos, but ever since he shouted "we R the spehs mareens!" in DoW I kinda think he's a bit of an idiot.

Plus the hints that they are ex thousand sons just makes them too traitory!

Dante and Gabriel Angelos of course.

Asterion Moloc is probably close as well.

Mellow wrote:
I want to like Angelos, but ever since he shouted "we R the spehs mareens!" in DoW I kinda think he's a bit of an idiot.

Plus the hints that they are ex thousand sons just makes them too traitory!

That was Boreale, not Gabriel who shouted "we R the spehss mehreens".

Also, I think Gabriel, Hairgel, and Diomedes have more than atoned for the chapter's dark past.

Dante for me. In terms of being a visionary with notions of how to proceed in the galaxy, Calgar's currently winning what with respecting the Tau and having a prosperous empire carved out in an otherwise brutal regime. But I'd love to see what Dante could have pulled off in twice the time if there were no Flaw to worry about...

 Kain wrote:

 Eetion wrote:
Light Huron. He has the smarts to do what's right.

Well that's good for him. I'm sure he and his no name chapter are very proud of what they did.

But what about Lufgt Huron?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Deadshot wrote:
I change my answer. There is only 1 right answer.

And he is BAWLD AND FEWLISH! Tis Gabriel Angelos.

Gabe very much has a full head of hair.

It was meant to say Bold as appossed to bald. Why would anyone call their enemies bald to inspire their own troops? That would be hilarious.

Imagine it. WW2. Churchill giving his most famous speech.
"We shall fight them on the beaches. We shall fight them on the landing grouns. We shall fight the hairless cowards in the streets and in the fields..."

Dante without question. He is known to take an interest in anything that threatens the Imperium and he leads one of the most respected first founding Chapters. He's been there, done that and hacked it down with his axe. He's a legend so old that even other famously old marines (Lysander, Grimnar) can't remember a time when he didn't lead the Blood Angels.

The DA player in me wants to say Azrael, but GW says he's not allowed to have fluff. With that in mind I'd have to say Grimnar, with Calgar as a close second. Grimnar helps out the little guys, and Calgar seems like hes trying to make the Imperium a better place.

 DarthMarko wrote:
^ Not after Kyras trimed his hair ... Kidding, he has a BLOCK haircut ofc..


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Eetion wrote:
Light Huron. He has the smarts to do what's right.

O the good old light....

Damn auto correct.
:(

Hellbrect, I mean ok Dante is great and all but got to give credit where it's due. He single handedly commanded the fleets at Armageddon while commencing boarding actions and such, and to top it off not a single person even thought about arguing not having him lead the fleet. Furthermore he commands the largest chapter therefore requiring more strategic knowledge and capability to keep it all flowing.

Tu,Shan is my favourite with Gabriel coming close behind

In terms of strategic capabilities, Dante in my personal opinion.

The UM fanboy in me wants to say Calgar, but I'll have to say Dante as the ultimate.

Calgar is obviously pretty high up there though. He seems like a leader who is pretty much altruistic, whole worlds cheering him everywhere he goes just when he's doing something routine like a personal inspection of a particular location because he really takes care of the realm of Ultramar.

Does Draigo count? Cause that dude lives in the warp just fighting daemons all day and pokes his head out now and then to fight some more in real space.

Draigo? nah.

Dante or Calgar? yes.

I think on balance Dante is better - he had overall command during one of the Armageddon campaigns for a reason, after all!

 PrehistoricUFO wrote:
The UM fanboy in me wants to say Calgar, but I'll have to say Dante as the ultimate.

Calgar is obviously pretty high up there though. He seems like a leader who is pretty much altruistic, whole worlds cheering him everywhere he goes just when he's doing something routine like a personal inspection of a particular location because he really takes care of the realm of Ultramar.

And now his world is under threat from both Ka'Bandha and Hive Fleet Leviathan. Although given Ka'Bandha's track record, I say that the Sanguinor is going to kick his gonads back into the warp before he gets very far.

It would be funny to see this thread without Dante,Grimmy or even Calgar...I mean there are others who are also great ??? I' mean these thread always end up in pissing contest between Vamp and Wolf which is pretty boring....


Moloc is pretty badass

Dante is a flying terminator and a boss.

Except you are asking who is the overall greatest, not 'pretty cool' or 'kinda great.' Calgar rules a small empire and is well known for great heroics and fair treatment of both humans and xenos. Dante is the oldest surviving space marine and lead the imperiums forces during the second war of armageddon. Logan grimnar is borderline worshiped on thousands of worlds and is arguably the most respected commander in the imperium of man. They gave the guy command over the imperiums forces in the 13th black crusade for feths sake. Compared to those three the other chapter masters really don't even hold a candle.

Yeah, but still Logan, Dante and Calgar are well known to everybody and we had 10000 threads like this...It always comes down to *which do you like more*, so I would really like to know more about other "great dudes and their acts of heroism"....I mean just check Helbrecht (fe), the guy is awesome and he always gets neglected in these threads...

Really, if you wanna be objecftive Draigo is really the greatest - he trumps the laws of material/immaterial and torments papa Nurgle...He wins

In that case it should have been 'who is your favorite.' Who is the greatest is always going to end more or less the same way.

I'd say Calgar, he has armour made of pure plot, and he is the ultimate example of a pen being mightier than any sword his opponent can bring.

 Sir Samuel Buca wrote:
I'd say Calgar, he has armour made of pure plot, and he is the ultimate example of a pen being mightier than any sword his opponent can bring.

How poetic

But he also kicks arses...O how I'm waiting for a clash between him and Moloc....

 DarthMarko wrote:

 Sir Samuel Buca wrote:
I'd say Calgar, he has armour made of pure plot, and he is the ultimate example of a pen being mightier than any sword his opponent can bring.

How poetic

But he also kicks arses...O how I'm waiting for a clash between him and Moloc....

Don't get me wrong, I love Calgar, and all jokes aside, he actually is my favourite Chapter Master.
I agree about that face off though, but Moloc is a Minotaur, and Calgar is basically an ancient Greco-Roman hero in space. We all know who's walking out of that labyrinth.

Discounting the former Tyrant of Badab as no longer a chapter master, it has to be Nisk Ran-Thawll

 DarthMarko wrote:
Grimnar (you know the guy who plays golf with GK heads is also brilliant tactican and sympathetic towards common grunts ) /thread

QFT

Draigo can't count while he kills deamons very well has he ever went up against something that isn't from the warp. And its hard to be a great commander when if you meet him you get brain wipe or just put to death after the battle.

There should be a model for Vladimir Pugh. I suspect yellow hate as the Fists tend to get left out of things in favour of their offshoots.

Has to be Calgar though. He is basically a mini Guilliman and runs a mini empire as well as his chapter.

Draigo can't really cut the mustard as he can't actually command his Chapter. Not to mention - I don't think he's the "current" Supreme Grand Master, not that he's been stripped of rank or anything, but it's not like the Chapter could've functioned this long if they'd sat around twiddling their thumbs waiting for him instead of picking a successor.

tommse wrote:

MarsNZ wrote:

gilamonster wrote:
In your opinion

Calgar

Is it you, Matt?

Cute, I've actually liked ol' Marneus since 2nd. For the uninitiated this was before such devastating wit was directed at Ultramarines.

 Sir Samuel Buca wrote:

Moloc is a Minotaur, and Calgar is basically an ancient Greco-Roman hero in space. We all know who's walking out of that labyrinth.

Clever and pithy. I approve.

 Brother Sergeant Bob wrote:
Vladamir Pugh, anyone who wields 2 Thunder Hammers is aces in my book.

He is my favourite. I mean seriously dual wielding thunder hammers....

but overall I cast in my vote for the Top Dog Grimnar. Cus he reminds me of my uncle.

I'd like to meet this uncle

Carab Culn, Chapter Master of the Red Scorpions is a personal favorite of mine. His chapter is a bit reclusive, but he did win the Badab War basically, so he is a badass.

Vladamir Pugh and the Imperial Fists would be a close second.

Dante. As has been mentioned, both Calgar and Tu'shan bowed to him at Armageddon.

I'd have to go with Moloc when it comes to high-octane plot-armored badassery, Calgar as a Lord-Protector of his vassal worlds, Dante as a strategic commander, Helbrecht as a naval warfare expert, and Grimnar as a leader of warriors.

Draigo doesn't count because he's a puppet of the Chaos Gods, eternally tormented by the futility of his own life. While that makes him a paragon of the fleeting nature of all his chapter's victories, it doesn't make him a great Chapter Master.

Depends on your definition of "greatest". Dante is certainly the oldest, and many Chapter Masters defer to him because of that (as mentioned by others).

For me, its Logan Grimnar. Its one of the reasons I play Space Wolves. In the grim darkness of the future, its refreshing to see at least one Chapter Master who does what is right instead of what some religious zealot wants. Just look at the stuff he has done:

First War of Armageddon saw Chaos defeated. Those that fought valiantly against Chaos were put into camps and sterilized by the Inquisition. Logan knew it was wrong so he rescued as many as he could, escorting transports to their destinations to keep them safe from the Inquisition.

This lead to a "cold war" between the Ordo Malleus (specifically Inquisitor Lord Ghesmei Kysnaros and the forces under his command) and the Space Wolves. Negotiations to end the conflict were agreed to occur in neutral space, but the Space Wolves were attacked by Inquisition and Grey Knight forces. So what happens? Grimnar is brought aboard one of the Grey Knight vessels, alone, to negotiate his "surrender". Grimnar decides that idea is bunk, kills Grey Knight Grand Master Joros with one blow (for violating the laws of parlay; kind of a big deal), and then teleports back to his ship.

Inquisition forces, Grey Knights, and Red Hunters lay siege to Fenris so Logan and 20 Wolf Guard Terminators teleport onto Kysnaros' flagship and Logan kills him personally. He only ends his war against the Inquisition at the behest of Bjorn Fell-Hand.

Logan secures peace between the Inquisition and Space Wolves and no one is declared a heretic/traitor as you'd normally expect.

Logan was elected Supreme Commander during Abaddon's 13th Black Crusade.

Logan and Azrael put aside their chapter's animosity towards one another and together they won a big victory at the Battle of Kasr Sonnen against a force many times their size.

Basically I play Space Wolves because they are the most human of the Space Marines, and Logan Grimnar is the only Chapter Master with the guts to do what he thinks is right regardless of the consequences. And I like to think its because of that, as well as his tactical abilities, he is highly respected among the other Chapter Masters. He and Azrael even have mutual respect for one another IIRC, despite their Chapter's history.

I've also just found another reason why Calgar is the greatest Chapter Master. He overcame his handicap of girly hands to rise to command of the Ultramarines.

Most human of the Space Marines? Salamanders might contest that! Good post though

 cowmonaut wrote:
Depends on your definition of "greatest". Dante is certainly the oldest, and many Chapter Masters defer to him because of that (as mentioned by others).

For me, its Logan Grimnar. Its one of the reasons I play Space Wolves. In the grim darkness of the future, its refreshing to see at least one Chapter Master who does what is right instead of what some religious zealot wants. Just look at the stuff he has done:

First War of Armageddon saw Chaos defeated. Those that fought valiantly against Chaos were put into camps and sterilized by the Inquisition. Logan knew it was wrong so he rescued as many as he could, escorting transports to their destinations to keep them safe from the Inquisition.

This lead to a "cold war" between the Ordo Malleus (specifically Inquisitor Lord Ghesmei Kysnaros and the forces under his command) and the Space Wolves. Negotiations to end the conflict were agreed to occur in neutral space, but the Space Wolves were attacked by Inquisition and Grey Knight forces. So what happens? Grimnar is brought aboard one of the Grey Knight vessels, alone, to negotiate his "surrender". Grimnar decides that idea is bunk, kills Grey Knight Grand Master Joros with one blow (for violating the laws of parlay; kind of a big deal), and then teleports back to his ship.

Inquisition forces, Grey Knights, and Red Hunters lay siege to Fenris so Logan and 20 Wolf Guard Terminators teleport onto Kysnaros' flagship and Logan kills him personally. He only ends his war against the Inquisition at the behest of Bjorn Fell-Hand.

Logan secures peace between the Inquisition and Space Wolves and no one is declared a heretic/traitor as you'd normally expect.

Logan was elected Supreme Commander during Abaddon's 13th Black Crusade.

Logan and Azrael put aside their chapter's animosity towards one another and together they won a big victory at the Battle of Kasr Sonnen against a force many times their size.

Basically I play Space Wolves because they are the most human of the Space Marines, and Logan Grimnar is the only Chapter Master with the guts to do what he thinks is right regardless of the consequences. And I like to think its because of that, as well as his tactical abilities, he is highly respected among the other Chapter Masters. He and Azrael even have mutual respect for one another IIRC, despite their Chapter's history.

Pssssht! To be honest this reasoning is the same reason I appreciate Salamanders so very much. Whilst it is true they have always been a lesser (in size) chapter, they are the most human. They will weep for men, they have stood in the line to protect humans, their chapter master got enraged at another chapter master's plan to bombard a refuge settlement. They leave marines to defend planets and on their free time they often go about on planets as hermits to help humans. Goodness I love them. Personally I dislike Logan (namely because it just seems.... bullocks he gets away with all of that without even the slightest problem) and Space Wolves (Thousand Sons) however I shall proclaim Logan is worth being in the top 3. Tu'Shan shows promise (as Dante saw) but he is young and must learn more. Calgar, Logan, and Dante form, what I believe, is the current top 3 triad of chapter masters (a few others perhaps Minotaurs being one) with Dante perhaps barely edging the rest out simply due to age.

Well, Salamander's are my second favorite chapter for a reason. I had assumed it was the Melta and Flamers and point blank firing and the color scheme. Honestly, I had completely forgotten that they also stand up for the common man.

I'll grant you guys a tie for "most human" super humans

Logan protecting the Armageddon survivors should not be considered a good thing. He endangered billions upon billions of souls by spread of corruption and allowing it to be spread Enperor knows how many incursions have been caused by a First Armageddon War survivor. Or a descendent or a relative or someone who had contact to them

The thing I don't like about Logan (because I like that he's trying to protect as above) is that he can get away with outright Heresy without incident. Inquisitors are the right hand of the Emperor and subject to no one bar Him. Killing one of them unless a proven traitor is heresy, and without the approval of another Inquisitor is as well. Killing a Grey Knight Grand Master, well, Logan's lucky to be alive. Any other chapter wouldv'e declared war on the Wolves. GK were created expressly by the Emperor for a purpose. To deny them that purpose and kill one, particularly one so high ranked, is to defy the Emperor's Will.

 Deadshot wrote:
Logan protecting the Armageddon survivors should not be considered a good thing. He endangered billions upon billions of souls by spread of corruption and allowing it to be spread Enperor knows how many incursions have been caused by a First Armageddon War survivor. Or a descendent or a relative or someone who had contact to them.

Oh my, you actually buy into the paranoia written into the game background to show how dumb/desperate/fearful/ignorant (pick one) society has become in the future! Hint: Anyone that showed visible signs of corruption would have been slain as Chaos scum. The people interred in the camps were not necessarily actually "tainted". They certainly weren't any less "tainted" than any of the Space Marines that fought Chaos.

To think otherwise requires believing that the Space Marines truly are "holy warriors" and that their "faith" protected them. But then that still ignores that the same "faith" could have protected these others.

 Deadshot wrote:
The thing I don't like about Logan (because I like that he's trying to protect as above) is that he can get away with outright Heresy without incident.

Alright, this is going to get deep, but Deepshot I have to ask: Do you know what "heresy" means?

Here's the thing, "heresy" is a religious term. It is not the same as "traitor", even in 40k's universe. It only has real meaning in a religious sense. The Emperor of Mankind is venerated as a god (against his will; remember his refusal to be worshiped as a god was one of the key things leading the Word Bearers to Chaos and the Horus Heresy) by most of mankind. We have a futuristic dark age going on here. The Ecclesiarchy encourages this worship. 99% of Space Marines follow this worship (hence Chaplains). It hasn't always been this way, but for thousands of years it has been.

The Space Wolves do not see the Emperor as a god. They don't buy into the cult of worshiping him. So heresy isn't a punishment that would phase them.

 Deadshot wrote:
Killing a Grey Knight Grand Master, well, Logan's lucky to be alive. Any other chapter wouldv'e declared war on the Wolves. GK were created expressly by the Emperor for a purpose. To deny them that purpose and kill one, particularly one so high ranked, is to defy the Emperor's Will.

A few things:

1. Inquisitor Lord Ghesmei Kysnaros and Grand Master Joro broke Imperial Law (and what would be considered international law these days, suppose intergalactic law would apply here) by violating their own request of parley. This is a huge deal. Parley is one of the oldest laws/rules around, having started in the middle ages. If it existed still 40,000 years from now then it would be one of the oldest laws known to man. Its the only way peace can be made between two warring forces. Presumably this transgression is punishable by the death penalty.

2. The Grey Knights are not an autonomous chapter, and they were created to fight Daemons. Grey Knights are a tool of the Inquisition.

3. The Inquisition was created to do the Emperor's bidding. That was thousands of years ago. The Inquisitors themselves "these days" have a lot of in-fighting, so its not surprising to see the Inquisition fighting loyal forces. They fight among themselves often enough.

4. But to blindly assume that fighting the powers that be in the Empire is "against the Emperor's Will" shows a lack of understanding of the fluff material. Some of the best parts of the fluff are the bits where the current Imperium of Man is a shadow of what it once was and not at all the vision the Emperor had. Point in fact, him being kept alive is likely against his will and may actually be a bad thing (the whole "Star Child" theory of things).

Read more of the Horus Heresy era fluff. Things are a lot more grimdark than you'd expect!

Minor nitpick: It was Ulrik the Slayer who stayed Logan's hand at Armageddon, not Bjorn IIRC.
Also, it would be interstellar or intragalactic law; intergalactic is between two or more galaxies, and 40K only takes place in one.
Okay, enough pedantic nitpicking.

Another vote for Grimnar here; he's the only Chapter Master who's been in charge in two major conflicts, and still manages to fool everyone into thinking he's "just a barbarian" instead of the genius he really is..,
Having said that, I do quite like the Salamanders as well, but only the Wolves have the cojones to act on what they think is right.

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:
I'd have to go with Moloc when it comes to high-octane plot-armored badassery.

I think it's brought up in IA 12 that a canonical in-universe rumour is that Morloc doesn't have plot armour at all, but instead actually was killed several times and his memories implanted into another Space Marine to continue on as the new Morloc. This is pointed/implied to be possible but also tech-heresy. Other people in-universe say such a claim is just malicious slander.

@cowmonaut


Firstly, it is paranoia. That's fact. But the risk of taint spreading and the threat it poses is too great to risk.

Secondly, "visible signs" of corruption only appear in xhaulted champions who have been given a prize by the Ruinous Powers. The kind the Inquisition is on the look out for, because yes, a third arm or tentecles would be burned at the stake, is the quiet kind. The kind that starts by some lowly grunt thinking "I don't want to be pushed into another war to defend these s."

Thirdly, space marines are more resistant due to lifelong indoctrination and are brainwashed in all but name. Any sign of corruption results in the marine being immediately
destroyed. However, they are too few in number to destroy just to be safe, whereas humans are the only thing the Imperium has a surplus of and it is easier, less costly and safer to wipe out the humans.

Heresy is to go against the accepted and official religion of the state. Therefore the SW are in definition of the word, heretics, but are not called such. In any case, its not the views of the person who believes differently that counts, its the others he's differing from. And their rank relevant to his.

Example being Emperor Constantine who started what we now know as the Roman Catholic church by converting to christianity on his deathbed. Everyone goes along with it because he's the boss. On the other hand, in BC times, defying the state in any manner, including braodcasting differing beliefs was cause for punishment or even execution dependent on severity.

Basically. Majority rule. Everyone else believes in Emperor as a god. Space Wolves say otherwise. Everyone has a problem an you are branded as a heretic. They got away with it due to Bjorn's presence and their Legion status.


Imperial Law is dictated by the High Lords, or someone underneath them. In either case, the Inquisition sit outside the Lords control and so are not bound by Imperial Law and by extension niether are the GK. For them Parley is simply about honour and fairplay. But yes, they deserved to die for breaking an ancient pact. It is one of things like adultery with your best friend's wife or perjury. You do not do it or be branded as a coward/scumbag.


And no, the Inquisitors do not act in the way a living Emperor would want, imo, but they act in a way that they percieve to be his instruction. To use a real world example, smcertain people's views on the Catholic Church and their actions hich are to them the will of God, may not be the actual will of God. That is not to offend anyone. That's just opinion held by some people. Even though the Emperor and God are not "present" (although those of faith debate the latter), there are those who believe they are acting upon His orders.

So it doesn't matter what we players think. That fact is the Inquisition act in a way that they believe follows the Emperor's will, and combined with the fact he is the god of the Imperium, anyone who acts against them is defying what is effectively God or His equivilent and under a religiously controlled lawmaker is illegal.



Fianlly,what is with "Deepshot?"

Have to say maybe Dante or Grimnar. Favorites go between a three-way tie between those two and Angelos.

 cowmonaut wrote:
Depends on your definition of "greatest". Dante is certainly the oldest, and many Chapter Masters defer to him because of that (as mentioned by others).

For me, its Logan Grimnar. Its one of the reasons I play Space Wolves. In the grim darkness of the future, its refreshing to see at least one Chapter Master who does what is right instead of what some religious zealot wants. Just look at the stuff he has done:

First War of Armageddon saw Chaos defeated. Those that fought valiantly against Chaos were put into camps and sterilized by the Inquisition. Logan knew it was wrong so he rescued as many as he could, escorting transports to their destinations to keep them safe from the Inquisition.

This lead to a "cold war" between the Ordo Malleus (specifically Inquisitor Lord Ghesmei Kysnaros and the forces under his command) and the Space Wolves. Negotiations to end the conflict were agreed to occur in neutral space, but the Space Wolves were attacked by Inquisition and Grey Knight forces. So what happens? Grimnar is brought aboard one of the Grey Knight vessels, alone, to negotiate his "surrender". Grimnar decides that idea is bunk, kills Grey Knight Grand Master Joros with one blow (for violating the laws of parlay; kind of a big deal), and then teleports back to his ship.

Inquisition forces, Grey Knights, and Red Hunters lay siege to Fenris so Logan and 20 Wolf Guard Terminators teleport onto Kysnaros' flagship and Logan kills him personally. He only ends his war against the Inquisition at the behest of Bjorn Fell-Hand.

Logan secures peace between the Inquisition and Space Wolves and no one is declared a heretic/traitor as you'd normally expect.

Logan was elected Supreme Commander during Abaddon's 13th Black Crusade.

Logan and Azrael put aside their chapter's animosity towards one another and together they won a big victory at the Battle of Kasr Sonnen against a force many times their size.

Basically I play Space Wolves because they are the most human of the Space Marines, and Logan Grimnar is the only Chapter Master with the guts to do what he thinks is right regardless of the consequences. And I like to think its because of that, as well as his tactical abilities, he is highly respected among the other Chapter Masters. He and Azrael even have mutual respect for one another IIRC, despite their Chapter's history.

You forgot to add "Creed's drinking buddy"...
If dude like Azreal is willing to heed his command despite their chapter...khm past...he wins in my book...
Nice post... +1

P,S, Molocs data-body transfer is funny as gak,,,

Calgar.

"Mankind boasts many heroes, men of purpose and dedication without whom the Imperium would crumble. Yet even among their ranks there is a man whose nobility overshadows all others. His triumphs are without number and his deeds the stuff of legend. His name is Marneus Calgar, Master of the Ultramarines and Lord of Macragge.

It is on the field of battle that Marneus Calgar shows his immense skill. He is a proficient tactician and a master strategist, who can read the ebb and flow of battle as easily as another man reads words on a page. He leads the Ultramarines in battle if and when he is required, his mere presence inspiring his troops to great acts of valour and courage. It is here, in the eye of the storm, that Marneus Calgar's titanic might is truly realised. He is a God of War and he will crush all before him, for none can stand before the greatest warrior of the Imeprium."

Hear that? Even the Primarchs are only Gods of Battle. Plus he's got two power fists, he punches his foes into submission whether they're giant space bug super commanders or fragments of an ancient war god. There's just a certain something about that that means the others can't compete.

Except that they can...

People pile hate on Calgar and Draigo for them being, supposedly, Mary Sues, but Grimnar always gets a pass because wolf wolf wolf or something. It's one of the reasons the Space Wolves are one of my least favourite Chapters. They get away with killing Grey Knight Grand Masters, waging open war against the Ecclesiarchy, partying with Eldar (!!) and being massive hypocrites (no, our Librarians are different). There's just heaps upon heaps of stuff that would get other Chapters excommunicated that the Wolves just get to completely ignore, with no consequence at all.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
People pile hate on Calgar and Draigo for them being, supposedly, Mary Sues, but Grimnar always gets a pass because wolf wolf wolf or something. It's one of the reasons the Space Wolves are one of my least favourite Chapters. They get away with killing Grey Knight Grand Masters, waging open war against the Ecclesiarchy, partying with Eldar (!!) and being massive hypocrites (no, our Librarians are different). There's just heaps upon heaps of stuff that would get other Chapters excommunicated that the Wolves just get to completely ignore, with no consequence at all.

Because space wolves don't answer to them they answer to the emperor and to him alone.
There first founding also and like ALL first founding they get away with anything that isn't laying waste to the imperial palace.

gilamonster wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
People pile hate on Calgar and Draigo for them being, supposedly, Mary Sues, but Grimnar always gets a pass because wolf wolf wolf or something. It's one of the reasons the Space Wolves are one of my least favourite Chapters. They get away with killing Grey Knight Grand Masters, waging open war against the Ecclesiarchy, partying with Eldar (!!) and being massive hypocrites (no, our Librarians are different). There's just heaps upon heaps of stuff that would get other Chapters excommunicated that the Wolves just get to completely ignore, with no consequence at all.

Because space wolves don't answer to them they answer to the emperor and to him alone.
There first founding also and like ALL first founding they get away with anything that isn't laying waste to the imperial palace.

No other Chapter has come anywhere near what the Space Wolves have done and gotten away with it with the possible exception of the Grey Knights, and they get away with it because they're the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Malleus. The Space Wolves get away with it because they're the wolfiest wolf you have ever seen, or something. It makes no sense at all.


Wolf.

Tyberos the Red Wake.

Hunger and Slake alone make him the best Chapter Master.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

gilamonster wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
People pile hate on Calgar and Draigo for them being, supposedly, Mary Sues, but Grimnar always gets a pass because wolf wolf wolf or something. It's one of the reasons the Space Wolves are one of my least favourite Chapters. They get away with killing Grey Knight Grand Masters, waging open war against the Ecclesiarchy, partying with Eldar (!!) and being massive hypocrites (no, our Librarians are different). There's just heaps upon heaps of stuff that would get other Chapters excommunicated that the Wolves just get to completely ignore, with no consequence at all.

Because space wolves don't answer to them they answer to the emperor and to him alone.
There first founding also and like ALL first founding they get away with anything that isn't laying waste to the imperial palace.

No other Chapter has come anywhere near what the Space Wolves have done and gotten away with it with the possible exception of the Grey Knights, and they get away with it because they're the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Malleus. The Space Wolves get away with it because they're the wolfiest wolf you have ever seen, or something. It makes no sense at all.


Wolf.

BT number around 6000,blood Angeles and there successor chapters turn on there allies and kill them. And had the Ordo mallus went to war with the wolves they risk the other chapters especially the first founding chapters joining the wolves and a new civil war for something there divided on.

gilamonster wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

gilamonster wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
People pile hate on Calgar and Draigo for them being, supposedly, Mary Sues, but Grimnar always gets a pass because wolf wolf wolf or something. It's one of the reasons the Space Wolves are one of my least favourite Chapters. They get away with killing Grey Knight Grand Masters, waging open war against the Ecclesiarchy, partying with Eldar (!!) and being massive hypocrites (no, our Librarians are different). There's just heaps upon heaps of stuff that would get other Chapters excommunicated that the Wolves just get to completely ignore, with no consequence at all.

Because space wolves don't answer to them they answer to the emperor and to him alone.
There first founding also and like ALL first founding they get away with anything that isn't laying waste to the imperial palace.

No other Chapter has come anywhere near what the Space Wolves have done and gotten away with it with the possible exception of the Grey Knights, and they get away with it because they're the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Malleus. The Space Wolves get away with it because they're the wolfiest wolf you have ever seen, or something. It makes no sense at all.


Wolf.

BT number around 6000,blood Angeles and there successor chapters turn on there allies and kill them. And had the Ordo mallus went to war with the wolves they risk the other chapters especially the first founding chapters joining the wolves and a new civil war for something there divided on.

BT number around 6000 and haven't ever done anything to make the Inquisition doubt their loyalty. The Blood Angels never turned on anyone, that was the Flesh Tearers and they're currently under Inquisitorial investigation. The reason they haven't suffered retribution yet is because the timeline's frozen, not because they have plot armour the size of Australia. Regardless of whether the Ordo Malleus could afford to fight the Wolves or not, the Wolves shooting down Sisters for no reason while being completely cool with throwing a party for some Eldar should be grounds for the Ecclesiarchy to just blow Fenris up and be done with it.

I didn't think the ecclesiarchy had power over the space marines only the high lords could excommunication a chapter.

And when did they party with the eldar?

Dispite what you say about the Wolves answering to the Enperor, its still BS. EVERYONE in the Imperium except the Inquisition falls under the jurisdiction of the High Lords as dipected in Imperial Hierachy chart on page 139 of the Big Rulebook.

text removed.

reds8n

They get away with it because they are first founding yes. That's the only reason. Still don't like it. Fighting the system SHOULD get you punished. The Imperium isn't a democracy, nor socialist or communst. Do as you're told or suffer the consequences. That is how the Imperium works. And only the Inquisition are above the Law.

 Deadshot wrote:
They get away with it because they are first founding yes. That's the only reason. Still don't like it. Fighting the system SHOULD get you punished. The Imperium isn't a democracy, nor socialist or communst. Do as you're told or suffer the consequences. That is how the Imperium works. And only the Inquisition are above the Law.

Dude, we are talking about GW, besides remember Kyras the Khorne librarian ? If this isn't a reason for purge I don't know what is......

 Deadshot wrote:
They get away with it because they are first founding yes. That's the only reason. Still don't like it. Fighting the system SHOULD get you punished. The Imperium isn't a democracy, nor socialist or communst. Do as you're told or suffer the consequences. That is how the Imperium works. And only the Inquisition are above the Law.

The Imperium is a group of many disparate factions within factions.
The only common thing they have is their own need for survival.
The Ecclesiarchy, The Astartes, The Munitorum, The Arbites, The Inquisition, The Navy, The Mechanicus, the Navigators...
Each group is more or less reliant on the other (Some more than others, some less so) for survival.
Within each group there are further factions. The Ad Mech has many factions, the Ecclesiarchy is the same. The Inquisition is noted for it's factions being at war with each other in some cases.
Just because the SW fought one Inquisitor doesn't mean they are wholly against the Inquisition. It's more than likely they have many allies within the Inquisition.
The Imperium has an underlying political system which is absurdly complex. Being a First Founding chapter the SW have many allies which make an all out war or a declaration of heresy or rebellion against them politically impossible, like many first founding chapters I'd imagine.

Exactly, I agree with you. The First Founding staus makes it too risky but the fact remains they performed an act of treason against the Inquisition, who are the Right Hand ofthe Emperor. Just because no one cared or did anything about it doesn't mean he didn't do it.


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 DarthMarko wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
They get away with it because they are first founding yes. That's the only reason. Still don't like it. Fighting the system SHOULD get you punished. The Imperium isn't a democracy, nor socialist or communst. Do as you're told or suffer the consequences. That is how the Imperium works. And only the Inquisition are above the Law.

Dude, we are talking about GW, besides remember Kyras the Khorne librarian ? If this isn't a reason for purge I don't know what is......

Just because Khorne destests psykers doesn't mean he won't use them as long as they bring blood and skulls.

And despite punches to GK, EC, RH, and the "I" Logan (Creeds drinking buddy) is still elected as commander of imperial forces against Abby's 13th pink crusade.....

This tells you something....

There's a few issues with that though.
The Inquisition may not particularly care they may even agree with the idea that the SW were attacked illegally (If there is such a thing) and the Inquisitor deserved what he got. There is also a fairly big issue of actual authority since most SM claim they serve the Emperor before they serve anyone else which implies they are under no authority but the Emperor. On the other hand the Inquisition claim they are the Emperor's judgement...
It's a bit of a problem but varying chapters have their own way of sorting it. Frankly barring major problems the Inquisition should be clever enough to play SM to get them to do what they want...


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 DarthMarko wrote:
And despite punches to GK, EC, RH, and the "I" Logan (Creeds drinking buddy) is still elected as commander of imperial forces against Abby's 13th pink crusade.....

This tells you something....

SM usually elect a supreme commander based on who is best (And sometimes connections)
Grimnar was elected supreme commander of the SM forces against the 13th black crusade because he has around 700 years of fighting chaos under his power armoured belt due to Fenris being so close to the EoT. Even among the SM that's a lot of experience.

cadbren wrote:
There should be a model for Vladimir Pugh. I suspect yellow hate as the Fists tend to get left out of things in favour of their offshoots.

Has to be Calgar though. He is basically a mini Guilliman and runs a mini empire as well as his chapter.

Fists get left out? Lysander gets lots of love, think of the poor Iron Hands who need FW to introduce a character for them. All the Iron Hands have in the codex is a quote from their chapter master jacking off over razorbacks

Ceann Fine wrote:

cadbren wrote:
There should be a model for Vladimir Pugh. I suspect yellow hate as the Fists tend to get left out of things in favour of their offshoots.

Has to be Calgar though. He is basically a mini Guilliman and runs a mini empire as well as his chapter.

Fists get left out? Lysander gets lots of love, think of the poor Iron Hands who need FW to introduce a character for them. All the Iron Hands have in the codex is a quote from their chapter master jacking off over razorbacks

Fists do get left out while IH get ignored....


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 Deadshot wrote:
Exactly, I agree with you. The First Founding staus makes it too risky but the fact remains they performed an act of treason against the Inquisition, who are the Right Hand ofthe Emperor. Just because no one cared or did anything about it doesn't mean he didn't do it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarthMarko wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
They get away with it because they are first founding yes. That's the only reason. Still don't like it. Fighting the system SHOULD get you punished. The Imperium isn't a democracy, nor socialist or communst. Do as you're told or suffer the consequences. That is how the Imperium works. And only the Inquisition are above the Law.

Dude, we are talking about GW, besides remember Kyras the Khorne librarian ? If this isn't a reason for purge I don't know what is......

Just because Khorne destests psykers doesn't mean he won't use them as long as they bring blood and skulls.

I'm talking about how chapter master ( + half of SM ) went c-style....Nevermind that crappy fluff....

Wow, 4 pages of this and no mention of Gabriel Seth?

The man leads a chapter of raving lunatics to great affect! And he doesn't need ornate armor or a sparkly weapon.

He charges straight first into battle with a giant ass chainsword of awesomness!!! If you slip up in battle he'll curb stomp you in the face and can take out whole hoards by himself!

In all serious though the best in my opinion is Sarpedon. Gabriel and Gabriel are tied for second

We are talking about greatest chapter master not who is the most crazy

Beside we had Moloc mentioned....

Sarpedon :-) ??? hmmm so much questions...

I like Sarpedon...
Not the greatest but certainly a bit of a G

I thought I'd add in some more variety to stir the pot!

Logan, for reminding the Inquisition who is the real Emporer's Executioner.

 purplefood wrote:
The Inquisition is noted for it's factions being at war with each other in some cases.
Just because the SW fought one Inquisitor doesn't mean they are wholly against the Inquisition. It's more than likely they have many allies within the Inquisition.

As I recall that was exactly the case with the Armageddon incident - Logan Grimnar argued with one inquisitor who tried to pull rank on him with threats while several of the other inquisitors present were already thinking of getting rid of the guy arguing with Grimnar.

Logan Grimnar all the way he's the only chapter master that can flip off the inquisition and then get them to apologies for it. Also he's willing to look out for the common man and wont assign them to execution just to keep secrets.

One of the inquisitors in the Emperor's Gift was even a native Fenrisian. ...needless to say, he sided with the Space Wolves in that post-Armegeddon conflict.

Space Wolves are admittingly kinda Mary-Sue-ish compared to any chapter besides the Ultramarines. Blood Angels have The Flaw (which is aptly and perhaps purposefully named, since it's a flaw that REALLY REALLYdevstates what otherwise would have also been a Mary-Sue chapter) while Black Templars' fanatcism isn't always portrayed as a good thing (they hate ALL psykers and are kinda frothing zealous maniacs to a degree). Also, they have high numbers, but they also DIE in high numbers due to their crusading all the time.

While Space Wolves are perhaps the 2nd most Mary-Sue-ish chapter, I think most Warhammer 40k fans can overlook this because they're kinda the "everyman" Mary Sue. It's easy to emphasize with them because they're kinda like, a layman's Marine. They drink booze, they're gruff and dirty and unkempt, they sympathize with the humble folk, while also being dutiful and loyal... these sorts of traits can really appeal to your average human being (and, as expected, most of these traits are shared by dogs and these traits make dogs popular, too). Ultramarines actually have a lot of those traits too with the exception of the gruffness, but that makes them come across as a bit too white color/nobility-ish than the more down-to-earth Space Wolves (and then there's their Codex....).

Even the Ultramarines occasionaly lose battles though. The only Space Wolf loss I can remember on the top of my head is that one Strike Cruiser that got boarded during the Badab War.

As for more minor chapter masters of non first founding chapters; Gabriel Angelos, Asterion Moloc, and Marshall Helbrecht are also all great men.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Even the Ultramarines occasionaly lose battles though. The only Space Wolf loss I can remember on the top of my head is that one Strike Cruiser that got boarded during the Badab War.

There aren't many codeci that detail lots of horrendous losses.
Even defeats are told in a relatively good light such as 'lost but withdrew in good order' and the like.
I imagine for most Space Marine chapters having an entire strike force getting wiped out is something that doesn't happen every other day...

Well, the Space Wolves DO have genetic mutation and the whole matter of the Wulfen counting against them. Not to mention their only successor Chapter went full rogue - doesn't look good on the ol' record. These are of course minor stains on an otherwise exemplary record of kicking butt... so while they're not as flawed as others it's fair to say they're not completely flawless.

I think the biggest problem is that when other armies lose battles in other Codexes, it's always "the Orks" or "the Eldar", and while there's some no-name commander involved, we still associate it to the race. But when it's the reverse, and say, the Scythes of the Emperor or the Crimson Fists get humiliatingly drubbed... well that's nothing to do with our beloved Space Wolves/Ultramarines now is it...?

Sometimes they get some no name commander of big SM codex but it's rare...

Frankly, SW are likable to me because, well, who doesn't like a good dog?

 purplefood wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Even the Ultramarines occasionaly lose battles though. The only Space Wolf loss I can remember on the top of my head is that one Strike Cruiser that got boarded during the Badab War.

There aren't many codeci that detail lots of horrendous losses.
Even defeats are told in a relatively good light such as 'lost but withdrew in good order' and the like.
I imagine for most Space Marine chapters having an entire strike force getting wiped out is something that doesn't happen every other day...

Templars take horrendous losses in almost half the battles in their Codex (not to mention the lovely fight against Imhotekh in the Necron Codex...), Ultramarines lose their entire First Company, Blood Angels are reduced to 40 Marines and the worst thing that happens to the Space Wolves is that they lose a Strike Cruiser. See where I'm coming from?

Marneus Augustus Calgar, Lord Macragge, the current Chapter Master of the Ultramarines is undeniably the greatest current Chapter Master.

This is undeniable because he's Matt Ward's favorite, and therefore will be written in as the best, regardless of whether it makes sense or is a popular notion.

Gabriel Angelos. The man is the Angel of Death incarnate.

Vote for Pedro.

 Daba wrote:
Vote for Pedro.

I will give guido some credit, he did come around from being a jerk after a while. The lady and her kids who struggled to keep up with the Marines springs to mind. Pedro thought they would slow his men down, but she kept up, carrying her children the whole way. She finally collapsed, only for Pedro to, in turn, carry her.

I changed my mind.

Jaric Phoros. Cause why not?

Nimrod Grudge

My first thought was Dante.

Although the likes of Logan Grimnar or Marneus Calgar clearly got skills, something's got to be said for leading a Chapter for 1100 years.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Nimrod Grudge

You basket! I had to look that one up!
They come from Birmingham - the dark planet...

Marneus Calgar or Dante. Admittedly those are both in my top five favourite chapters so I might be a little bit biased

Grimnar or Tu Shan

Draigo.

Or doesn't he count?

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
Draigo.

Or doesn't he count?

He's a daemon not a space marine so doesn't count. Not to say he isn't on the emperors side but he is a daemon none the less. Plus GK don't really have "chapter masters" in the sense that this thread is about.

Vastly subjective and ill-defined. To my knowledge, the definition of 'greatest' is fairly hard to pin down in a mutually agreeable manner and it just usually ends up being a "what's your favorite Chapter?" argument.

That said, I'm going to throw in a vote for Gabriel Angelos while we're on the subject.

 Orblivion wrote:

gilamonster wrote:
I am suprised that no one has said helbrecht though

Helbrecht is pretty awesome, but he just doesn't match up to the other big names.

Helbrecht is a joke, any chapter master that can get beat to a pulp and lose his hand to a robot with a glove on fire deserves to be near the bottom. He even ran away from the battle instead of just flailing aimlessly like the normal space marine method of combat of never fleeing and always trying to kill everybody.

Don't yell at me if some of the stuff in their was wrong all I know about spehs mareens is from what popped up in my cron dex and the page I read about shrike in the smurf dex


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and pedro kantor

Go space mexicans!

 OverwatchCNC wrote:

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
Draigo.

Or doesn't he count?

He's a daemon not a space marine so doesn't count. Not to say he isn't on the emperors side but he is a daemon none the less. Plus GK don't really have "chapter masters" in the sense that this thread is about.

Ignore this, he counts, he's not a Daemon as far as official fluff goes.

As to whther GK have Masters, that can be debated. Lexicanum lists both Grand Masters and Supreme Grand Master Kaldor Draigo as "Masters of the Chapter." Personally I think as them all as Chapter Masters but that's just me. Draigo most certainly is "Chapter Master" (Chapter Lord as the official title) and has complete dominion over the chapter and its actions.

Yeah but how much Chapter Master'ing he actually does is debatable; considering he spends his past time in the warp, rather than actually with/overseeing his Chapter.

A valid point, but just because he doesn't do anything other than wander the warp, doesn't mean his rank is invalid.

What I want to know is whether someone took over from Draigo when he was lost and what happened to the replacement when Draigo was discovered to be alive? Was everyone who was promoted, demoted again?

Main issue about Kaldor Draigo's greatness is his ability to actually be a chapter master that leads his chapter is unknown, since I highly doubt he does much chapter mastering while in the warp (and he's only in real space for mere moments at a time).

TiamatRoar wrote:
Main issue about Kaldor Draigo's greatness is his ability to actually be a chapter master that leads his chapter is unknown, since I highly doubt he does much chapter mastering while in the warp (and he's only in real space for mere moments at a time).

Isn't that the point I just made two posts above?

And its for that reason I'd consider Dante/Calgar/Grimnar et al. to be greater Chapter Masters.

Zachariah Kersh of the Excoriators.......if anyone's ever heard of him.