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Post by: Eggs
I recently got a lump of backdated pay, so I thought I'd splurge on some new stuff. I was originally going to bulk out my existing GW armies, but started looking at some competitor products, and got lured in by the shinies. Thought I'd post my initial impressions up here in case anyone else is thinking of starting another system. I should say, I'm more of a painter than a gamer, but I do play too.
Caveat: I don't think we really need another pricing thread...
War machine
I bought the 2 player battle box for about £60. Things of worth in the box: A mini rulebook, stat cards for the included units, a bunch of miniatures and 6x D6. Everything else is just filler, and the paper ruler is actually pretty insulting.
There are two forces in the box, that seem fairly well balanced. There are 17 minis in the box, of which, 4 are 'dreadnaught' class, i.e. big minis. Talking of big, they are all pretty big. They seem a lot chunkier than GW models, with only the 2 warcasters seeming in a similar general scale to GW. The Man-o-war troops for example, dwarf a standard Space Marine. There is little in the way of assembly instructions, and there seems to be no logic on how the parts are bagged up. Menoth models are bagged individually for example, while the 5 Man-o-war models are in one big bag.
The minis are pretty nice, but the level of flash and mold lines is pretty horrific. Not sure if they are plastic or resin, but the crud seems pretty difficult to remove. I usually just scrape with a scalpel, but these need to be cut off. The material gets chewed up by my files.
Pros - Well balanced forces, and extremely good value (the models if bought separate would cost 2-3 times what I paid for the box.
Cons - Some pretty rough casting, and no counters - if the box is supposed to include everything you need to play, it wouldn't cost much to throuw a handful of plastic counters in there.
Dust Tactics
I bought the revised core set for £55. It includes 2 starter armies, the rulebook, 6 special dice, two pretty crap paper gaming 'boards', some card terrain tiles, a few small pieces of plastic terrain, unit stat cards and a campaign book, which are all pretty nice, apart from the paper 'boards'.
This set is unusual, in that the models come assembled and pre-primed, so you can game straight away. The flip side of this, is that they have been primed with mold lines still on there, so you can't really paint straight away. The models are made of a pretty soft plastic, and a lot of the weapons are bent, so these factors combined mean prep time for painting is more or less the same. If you try to game with the models 'out the box', weapon hands and stuff fall off, so its not ideal. The models are pretty sweet though. Again, the included value is quite high - 28 minis, including 2 'walkers' - dreadnaught sized tanks. The game has very simple rules, yet a lot of depth to the gameplay.
Pros - Models pre assembled and pre primed. 2 balanced forces out the box. Unusual look to the models.
Cons - Models pre assembled and pre primed. Crap gaming board, a lot of bent weapons and such, soft plastic, mold lines.
Infinity
There is no Infinity starter box, so I bought 2 'starter packs' - Aleph and Tohaa, which incidentally are probably the two most complex factions to play.  These two packs cost about £60. They include 6 minis each, and nothing else. They are all small minis too, so not the best in terms of model value. However, the rules can be downloaded for free.
The six models for each side are not particularly well balanced, and I think another £50 or so will be required before I host 'proper' games. Prep time is lengthy - the models are metal, and I'm pinning all the way to stop frustration at a later date. However, (and this is entirely subjective), what infinity loses in value against the others, it makes up for in aesthetics. The models are stunning, with a huge variety of poses, and out of all the games I've bought, I'm looking forward to painting these most. They make me want to really try and raise my game to do them justice.
Pros - Stunning models, very few mold lines, free pdf rules.
Cons - Pretty Damned Expensive. No starter set. Faction starter packs are not balanced pointwise.
So, those are my initial thoughts. I was going to get Malifaux too, but they don't do a starter as such either, and I don't really want to trawl internet forums to find out which models are useful or not. I was assured that in infinity there are no useless models. I'll maybe get some malifaux stuff at a later date.
Looking forward to getting wired into the gaming aspects once everything is built and primed. 
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Post by: Pacific
Quite interesting to read the perspective of someone coming into these games...
Definitely agree with the painting side of Infinity; my ability was woefully inadequate when I bought my first minis, but I like to think I was forced to improve through painting them.
Are you planning on going to the next steps with these, and really getting into them, or trying out some new 'starters' (if you're crazy and need to collect stuff for about 8 different systems? )
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Post by: AduroT
Two notes on the Warmachine stuff;
A.) It's plastic, but a different kind of plastic than the GW standard. For example, plastic glue will not work on it, you have to use super glue.
2.) It comes with the faction's medium based units, as those were the first ones that made the transition to plastic, so the scale does seem weird. The vast majority of infantry you're otherwise going to see is more akin to the size of the Warcasters.
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Post by: Breotan
 AduroT wrote:A.) It's plastic, but a different kind of plastic than the GW standard. For example, plastic glue will not work on it, you have to use super glue.
It's actually a plastic/resin mix like finecast but without GW's inept execution. And like finecast, it will slowly gum up your superglue if you use a brush applicator like the one in GW's bottles.
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Post by: MRPYM
 Eggs wrote:I recently got a lump of backdated pay, so I thought I'd splurge on some new stuff. I was originally going to bulk out my existing GW armies, but started looking at some competitor products, and got lured in by the shinies. Thought I'd post my initial impressions up here in case anyone else is thinking of starting another system. I should say, I'm more of a painter than a gamer, but I do play too.
Caveat: I don't think we really need another pricing thread...
War machine
I bought the 2 player battle box for about £60. Things of worth in the box: A mini rulebook, stat cards for the included units, a bunch of miniatures and 6x D6. Everything else is just filler, and the paper ruler is actually pretty insulting.
There are two forces in the box, that seem fairly well balanced. There are 17 minis in the box, of which, 4 are 'dreadnaught' class, i.e. big minis. Talking of big, they are all pretty big. They seem a lot chunkier than GW models, with only the 2 warcasters seeming in a similar general scale to GW. The Man-o-war troops for example, dwarf a standard Space Marine. There is little in the way of assembly instructions, and there seems to be no logic on how the parts are bagged up. Menoth models are bagged individually for example, while the 5 Man-o-war models are in one big bag.
The minis are pretty nice, but the level of flash and mold lines is pretty horrific. Not sure if they are plastic or resin, but the crud seems pretty difficult to remove. I usually just scrape with a scalpel, but these need to be cut off. The material gets chewed up by my files.
Pros - Well balanced forces, and extremely good value (the models if bought separate would cost 2-3 times what I paid for the box.
Cons - Some pretty rough casting, and no counters - if the box is supposed to include everything you need to play, it wouldn't cost much to throuw a handful of plastic counters in there.
Dust Tactics
I bought the revised core set for £55. It includes 2 starter armies, the rulebook, 6 special dice, two pretty crap paper gaming 'boards', some card terrain tiles, a few small pieces of plastic terrain, unit stat cards and a campaign book, which are all pretty nice, apart from the paper 'boards'.
This set is unusual, in that the models come assembled and pre-primed, so you can game straight away. The flip side of this, is that they have been primed with mold lines still on there, so you can't really paint straight away. The models are made of a pretty soft plastic, and a lot of the weapons are bent, so these factors combined mean prep time for painting is more or less the same. If you try to game with the models 'out the box', weapon hands and stuff fall off, so its not ideal. The models are pretty sweet though. Again, the included value is quite high - 28 minis, including 2 'walkers' - dreadnaught sized tanks. The game has very simple rules, yet a lot of depth to the gameplay.
Pros - Models pre assembled and pre primed. 2 balanced forces out the box. Unusual look to the models.
Cons - Models pre assembled and pre primed. Crap gaming board, a lot of bent weapons and such, soft plastic, mold lines.
Infinity
There is no Infinity starter box, so I bought 2 'starter packs' - Aleph and Tohaa, which incidentally are probably the two most complex factions to play. These two packs cost about £60. They include 6 minis each, and nothing else. They are all small minis too, so not the best in terms of model value. However, the rules can be downloaded for free.
The six models for each side are not particularly well balanced, and I think another £50 or so will be required before I host 'proper' games. Prep time is lengthy - the models are metal, and I'm pinning all the way to stop frustration at a later date. However, (and this is entirely subjective), what infinity loses in value against the others, it makes up for in aesthetics. The models are stunning, with a huge variety of poses, and out of all the games I've bought, I'm looking forward to painting these most. They make me want to really try and raise my game to do them justice.
Pros - Stunning models, very few mold lines, free pdf rules.
Cons - Pretty Damned Expensive. No starter set. Faction starter packs are not balanced pointwise.
May I ask why you consider Infinity models more expensive?
So, those are my initial thoughts. I was going to get Malifaux too, but they don't do a starter as such either, and I don't really want to trawl internet forums to find out which models are useful or not. I was assured that in infinity there are no useless models. I'll maybe get some malifaux stuff at a later date.
Looking forward to getting wired into the gaming aspects once everything is built and primed.
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Post by: Eggs
Pacific - yes, I'm going to take it further, play a few more games, maybe pick up an extra unit here or there.
Mrpym - i consider the infinity stuff more expensive, because it IS more expensive. As far as starters go, Warmachine averages about £3.50 per mini (including some 'big' models). Dust averages about £1.96 per mini (including some big models), and all the rulebooks, dice etc add to the value of both games. Infinity starters average about £5 per model, with no large models, and no extras that add to the value. In addition, the infinity starter packs aren't really enough to play a decent sized game, where as the other two are.
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Post by: Riquende
Infinity's prices, whilst higher on a per models basis, are in line with what all-metal Skirmish games have always charged.
If you only need 12 guys ever to play a game, and all of those are all-metal unique sculpts, then it's not a problem paying a higher price per model.
(Spoken by somebody who once had 12 Confrontation warbands)
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Post by: Kaptajn Congoboy
I will be following this thread
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Post by: Eggs
Riquende - while I don't mind paying the higher price, as the models are pretty nice, you certainly need more than the 12 guys. 6 a side is a bit meh, and as I said, the 6 for each side are unbalanced point wise. I think £100 is a realistic target to aim for to have two balanced, useable factions, which means infinity is averaging nearly double the other two to get going.
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Post by: Dheneb
60 pounds for a starter? Are you sure the store wasn't marking it up? Because that's more than we pay here (mine was about $60).
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Post by: Eggs
For which system? Warmachine I was lucky to get for £60, as most online places seemed to be up to £71. Infinity I was £60 for both starters. (6 minis in each) They average about £30 a box.
Edit - if you are wondering why I started two infinity factions, I like to have at least two factions for a game system, so if a mate is round having a beer, and we get the urge, we can just play with my stuff - no fuss. I also wanted to have a reasonable base point to compare systems, to see who wins my spending in the future!
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Post by: Dheneb
Yeah, I was talking about Infinity. I thought you were talking about a single starter though.
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Post by: Salad_Fingers
I think historical companies (especially battlefront) are becoming competitors to GW, so here are comments on two starter sets i have had experience of.
Flames of War - Open Fire
Box is available for around £50 and you get a whole lot of stuff for your money, you get plenty of models though the allied tanks can be a pain in the ass to get assembled and looking good.
You get two balanced armies so a game is playable right out the box, you get six shermans, three sherman fireflies, 3 stugs, 2 pak 40 anti tank guns and over 100 miniatures to go with them. The plastic infantry in my opinion being some of the best 15mm infantry models out there. You also get a V1 rocket as scenery, and then plenty of card board tokens and templates as well as a mini rulebook and a quick start guide. The box really is huge value for money.
Its also cheap enough that some players i know have picked it up along with a battlegroup rulebook to use the miniatures for a completely different system just putting aside the FOW stuff you get with it, and its still good value for money that way.
Pros - Great models, lots of online painting / modeling support, lots of models, rulebook included, great value for money, plenty of dice.
Cons - Some models are hard to put together, if you want to expand the armies you would have to buy some sort of supplement for armies lists.
Bolt Action - Assault on Normandy
If you shop around you can pick up the box for around £50
In it your getting 40 28mm miniatures, they are multi part plastic kits with plenty of options on how you want to assemble them (weapon choices etc), the models themselves are rather nice no real mold lines to complain about and go together very well. You also get some plastic scenery, a ruined farm house, its very nice but if its all you have it will mean some rather boring games.
You get overall 20 German Heer infantry and 20 American infantry, and while this is enough to game with you would soon find yourself wanting to expand for a more interesting experience, this is a slight let down however the good point to this is the full sized rulebook that is included has armies lists and rules for all sides so you will not have to buy any more books at least in order to expand your force. Include as well are order dice that are used somewhat like tokens in a game.
Pros - Nice plastic minatures with plenty of options, Full rulebook included that has all the army list you need in
Cons - Limited gaming before wanting to expand
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Post by: Eggs
Salad fingers - sounds interesting. Don't know why I didn't consider any historicals. It seems the starter boxes in general are great value (GW included). I think the lack of a proper 2 player starter for infinity (and malifaux) possibly costs them some sales.
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Post by: Eldercaveman
Can I suggest you try Dreadball, Dreadball fever has recently hit my gaming club, and it would be really interesting to here your thoughts on that system.
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Post by: jonolikespie
Infinity may lack the 2 player starter but they don't force you to buy a rulebook. If I want to play Warhammer I need to either buy a 2 player starter that only has 2 out of the 12+ factions or the $160 (AUD) rulebook. With infinity I just need the starter I want.
Though it would be nice if they did something like spartan games who don't have an official 2 player starter set but do offer discounts if you pick up 2/4/8 starter sets at the same time.
Compared to GW though both are excellent as they really are model companies. They give away their rules while relying on the quality of their models to make the sales.
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Post by: Salad_Fingers
Eggs wrote:Salad fingers - sounds interesting. Don't know why I didn't consider any historicals. It seems the starter boxes in general are great value ( GW included). I think the lack of a proper 2 player starter for infinity (and malifaux) possibly costs them some sales.
I would agree, much more attracted by something i can play / try straight out a box, means i have ended up with X-wing, a couple of the axis and allies games and wings of glory on the weight of the starter boxes. Probably is one of the reasons i have never really looked at infinity
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Post by: rich1231
Warmahordes starter boxes have just had a price rise in the UK/EU but still present a great value way to get into the games.
Other games have a different approach for tickling new players into spending, and keep spending. Some get it right, some not so right.
Still the best of the moment is X-wing, but its a very different proposition to something like Infinity.
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Post by: Eggs
I looked at x-wing. The starter is dirt cheap, though I've been advised the game is a money pit! No more so than most probably.
Jonolikespie - I can see where you are coming from, but I have to say, island of blood and dark vengeance are incredibly good value for money. IOB formed the core of my high elves army, and furnished me with a rulebook, and a pile of skaven to sell on ebay. By the time they were sold, I'd effectively paid the same for 27 models (including a monstrous creature) as I paid for six infinity models. Plus the all important rules.
I'm not putting Corvus belli down - they have a very different business model. Just saying if they put together a 2 player starter box or bundle deal, they might just attract a few more players. It's exactly the reason I avoided malifaux.
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Post by: Fenrir Kitsune
Eggs wrote:Pacific - yes, I'm going to take it further, play a few more games, maybe pick up an extra unit here or there.
Mrpym - i consider the infinity stuff more expensive, because it IS more expensive. As far as starters go, Warmachine averages about £3.50 per mini (including some 'big' models). Dust averages about £1.96 per mini (including some big models), and all the rulebooks, dice etc add to the value of both games. Infinity starters average about £5 per model, with no large models, and no extras that add to the value. In addition, the infinity starter packs aren't really enough to play a decent sized game, where as the other two are.
I should think its more expensive if you compare the metal to plastic/resin/mix from other companies.
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Post by: Riquende
Eggs wrote:Riquende - while I don't mind paying the higher price, as the models are pretty nice, you certainly need more than the 12 guys.
I don't play Infinity, I was talking about Skirmish games in a more general sense. Having said that, I have seen players at my local club play the game with 10-12 models.
The trouble with starter boxes is that they're of little value for people not interested in the included factions, and when games start to increase beyond the 4 that most games launch with you're more likely to exclude rather than include. Starter army boxes per faction are a good idea but only if they're balanced against each other (Hell Dorado's starter boxes were full size warbands, Urban War I think also did this).
Edit - I am purely talking about starters for all-metal small-model-count skirmish games in the above sentence.
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Post by: Rotgut
Well this has become a infinity is cheap/pricy pretty quick.
I liked your reviews, I wasnt aware of warmachines plastic stuff, the only stuff Ive had personally was metal so that was news to me, I second whoever said you should try out Bolt Action or Flames of War. I just got the small FoW set with the 5 tanks and I still feel its a good value, but I did only pay 20 bucks for it. I think the Bolt Action stuff is all good value for what you get, I bought a command squad the other day and am very happy with it, 9 bucks for 3 models doesnt bother me after playing 15-25 for a 40k HQ.
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Post by: Laughing Man
 Breotan wrote: AduroT wrote:A.) It's plastic, but a different kind of plastic than the GW standard. For example, plastic glue will not work on it, you have to use super glue.
It's actually a plastic/resin mix like finecast but without GW's inept execution. And like finecast, it will slowly gum up your superglue if you use a brush applicator like the one in GW's bottles.
No, it isn't. It's PVC.
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Post by: cincydooley
Breotan wrote: AduroT wrote:A.) It's plastic, but a different kind of plastic than the GW standard. For example, plastic glue will not work on it, you have to use super glue.
It's actually a plastic/resin mix like finecast but without GW's inept execution. And like finecast, it will slowly gum up your superglue if you use a brush applicator like the one in GW's bottles.
I don't know, most of their first gen 'plastics' that I got were pretty ineptly done, too. Soft detail. Horrific mould lines in places that were hard to remove. I still have nightmares about the plastic Ironclad chassis and the shoulder mould lines. Maybe the newer plastics are better, but please don't pretend their early attempts were great. They weren't. Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, Eggs-- Really great input here.
I'd encourage you to check out Freebooter's Fate. Really great, clean sculpts. Two people can get in for less than $40 USD a piece for a starter box, which has adequate rules to play.
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Post by: spaceelf
Enjoy the new games. I play all three and they are alot of fun.
I will add a comment on Privateer's 'plastics' I have purchased three Retribution of Scyrah starters in plastic. The detail on some of the mechs is a bit soft. The casting is also not the best. The biggest drawback is that the moldlines are hard to clean up. I had similar experiences with Mantic's 'restic' Veer Myn.
For me, the PVC is not a substitute for metal or plastic. It is more difficult to work with than metal, and is not as inexpensive as plastic.
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Post by: frozenwastes
PP has learned a bit when it comes to their PVC figures. The legion plastics, for example, had their details slightly exaggerated compared to the metals so they'd look like the metals after casting. They turned out great. So have all the 2nd chassis jacks for the WM factions.
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Post by: evancich
I patronize multiple systems and each are bisected into 2 areas for me:
"Single Player" & "Multi-player"
Single player, I define as hobby + fluff + list building + another I can do by myself.
Multi-player, I define as playing the game with others, forums, podcasts, blog posts, ...
40k:
Single Player: Tons of fluff, models vary in type but getting a painted army fielded is the most difficult of these systems
Multi: Simply the top dog, player base very strong in DC
Grade: A
What would get me to switch: Nothing, currently the system I'm the most invested in.
Warmahordes:
Single Player: I dislike the fluff but there is a bunch of it and PP advances the story line, the models are well done and getting a fully painted army fielded is quick and easy
Multi: Big on-line community and medium sized player base in DC, which seems to be growing
Grade: B
What would get me to switch: Hmm...I'd need to be more interested in the fluff and if some of the models' ascetic was improved (Ios warjacks) and if the player base took over 40k, I'd switch
Infinity:
Single Player: Fluff is cool but limited to the rule books. The models are great and fun to paint and a painted army is quick to field
Multi: Growing on-line community, the player base in DC seems to be growing but small
Grade: B-
What would get me to switch: If the rules books were better organized and the player base exploded in DC, I'd switch over to this game. Plastic mini's would be nice
Dust:
Single Player: The fluff is interesting but scarce, I buy the pre-painted models
Multi: on-line community isn't very active and there is a small player base in the DC area
Grade: C+
What would get me to switch: If the DC player based moved to this game, I'd follow and have it become my main army sized game
DW / FSA:
Single Player: No fluff to speak of, few models to paint and not much in the way of conversions
Multi: Not many forums or podcasts or blogs and these systems had a strong launch but have fallen off in the DC area
Grade: D
What would get me to switch: Needs fluff, needs better support from the parent company, needs more modeling options and I need more people to play against. Basically, this system is falling away in DC and it seems to be the fault of the folks that make the game.
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Post by: Consul Scipio
evancich,
With respect I think you need to define where you game as I know there are stores in the DC area (in Northern Virginia) where Flames of War and Warmahordes gaming is more popular than 40K now.
Really what I've noticed in this area are stores becoming the "center" of certain game systems, not exclusively of course aside from the few GW stores but those don't really count anyway.
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Post by: evancich
I'm in MD, so Drop Zone, Dream Wizards, Hobby Town, Hobby Works... Games & Stuff (FoW and Malifaux are big here, but still a decent sized 40k group)
Single player: 40k still wins for me, but I'd rank Dust higher if they stepped up their fluff production
Multi: Other than Warmahordes, 40k is the winner in the on-line realm
Sure, GW's price increases seem to be slowing new players' entrance into 40k, but some of us have 25+ years of models and hence 40k will have a very long tail
Warmahordes might take over the northern DC area, but there still aren't nearly as many events as 40k events and other systems are slowing its growth (like Infinity and Malifaux)
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Post by: Lanrak
Just a quick note on Flames of War.
You can download FREE PDF army lists from Battlefronts own web site to expand your FoW armies out of the Open Fire Box.
And you can use the FREE army builder EasyArmy.com which is approved by Battlefront.
You do NOT have to buy additional army books if you do not want to...(But they are well worth the money IMO.  )
Also you can add to your 15mm WWII armies using other companies products, (Plastic Soldier Company ,Zevda, Forged In Battle, Command decision/Skytrex, etc.)
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Post by: Surtur
@evanich: You're grading system is confusing and arbitrary.
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Post by: Alfndrate
 Surtur wrote:@evanich: You're grading system is confusing and arbitrary.
Of course it is, because everyone has reasons as to why they play the games they do.
I used to play Malifaux and Warmahordes for about a year and a half straight for each game. Both times, they dropped off as one game was not popular at my local store, and the other one is following suit. So what's currently my "go-to" game? 40k. While I have plenty of posts being critical of GW's antics and policies, I'm still going to play the games my friends want to play. We might move to something else for awhile. It all ebbs and flows.
evanich's grading system makes sense to him because it's what allows him to game.
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Post by: Platuan4th
Breotan wrote: AduroT wrote:A.) It's plastic, but a different kind of plastic than the GW standard. For example, plastic glue will not work on it, you have to use super glue.
It's actually a plastic/resin mix like finecast but without GW's inept execution.
Actually, it's not. It's straight up PVC.
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Post by: steve2112
In regards to 2-player starter sets, I hate them. You never get the faction you want and you always loose out on something. For 40k you loose all the great fluff in the rulebook and you get stuck with things that might not be worth it like the hellbrute. I hate trying to find people to split sets or selling stuff on ebay.
with something like infinity for $75 US you get the ANY 2 starter packs.So thats about 5.83 a mini. While they all might not be balanced 100% equally on there own if you like the game and by maybe 2 or 3 more minis over time they are fine. Also remember Corvus Belli encourages you to proxy stuff to try things out. You do run into the problem that the free rules do not include the fluff though.
I have never really seen much value in warmachine as i personally halt the sculpts. Not a fan of that style at all.
It would be great if companies or stores did a rulebook and 1 faction starter set discounts. Like 20% off both.
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Post by: Eggs
The thing about starter sets though, is that you don't have to buy them if you want a different faction. For those that just want a cheap way in, they are great. For those that want a different faction, they can buy the same as they would otherwise.
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Post by: evancich
Grading system
Single player:
Fluff - Stuff to read / mythology / background / stories...
Painting - Are the mini's fun to paint? Do you have to paint many of the same model / pose?
Models - Do I like how they look? How many do I need? Are they a pain to assemble? Are they easy to break?
Lists: Is list building a significant part of the experience?
Multi:
on-line - podcasts, forums, blogs to read, ... stuff that has other's interacting with me or the other way around that isn't in-person and isn't playing the game, if there are only limited / regional / annoying choices?
player base: if I walk into a game store, what are my chances of getting a pick up game? How many GTs are there? How many RTTs are there? What sells well in my area? What are the game clubs playing?
Right now 40k "wins" in most of those. Like it or not. Chances are if GW continues on the path it is on, new players will chose a different system mostly due to cost (and they weren't exposed to the GW store in the mall, like kids 10 years ago were) and drive the older players (like me) to non-40k systems.
Right now, if I host both a 40k & Warmahorde RT at Drop Zone or Dream Wizards, the 40k one will get 15 players and the Warmahorde will get half that. I'm not saying it is right or wrong or the way things should be or insulting your system of choice, but just the trend here and now.
Personally, I wish DW / FSA was better supported and wasn't a flash in the pan around here. I'd like Dust to take off, since there is interesting fluff to read and I can buy the pre-painted models. Infinity would be great too, if more people played that. Warmahordes? Yes, it is probably the 2nd most popular game here. Painting models doesn't seem to be a priority to the players. I just don't like the fluff. The RTs I've played in were far less friendly than the 40k or Malifaux RTs. Maybe if the current 40k players flock to Warmahordes things will be different.
FoW? It might be the most awesome game ever, I don't like playing the role of folks that fought in actual wars and are buried / honored 20 miles from me.
Many players can't (or don't want to) support multiple systems and generally go with what is popular in their area, which is one of the reasons why getting a new system to stick is so difficult.
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Post by: Brother SRM
Lanrak wrote:
Also you can add to your 15mm WWII armies using other companies products, (Plastic Soldier Company ,Zevda, Forged In Battle, Command decision/Skytrex, etc.)
This is also a good idea, since PSC models cost like, a third what Battlefront's models do, and look just as good.
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Post by: timetowaste85
I'm surprised nobody chimed in on Mantic's upcoming Deadzone or 2nd edition Warpath. Deadzone has rules videos online, and had a very successful Kickstarter. Warpath is in the beta stage, but they are using player input to make 3rd edition awesome when it hits. You can play a game AND help improve its future.
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Post by: Zygrot24
I've also bought a lot of starters for games that aren't GW. None of my friends are really interested in doing another mini game, so I buy them mostly for my own amusement. OPs experiences match my own.
I think the best value and biggest winner in the 2-player start set competition is Flames of War, which I only got last week. The quality of the models, printed materials and included extras is beyond what I would expect for what I paid. Punch out terrain and couunters, full-color (half size) rule book, and a ton of other printed materials just make it a value-based winner. We'll see how I feel after I play some games. I can tell you I was not happy with the quality of the games you get out of the Warmahordes starters or Dust.
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Post by: Pacific
Definitely think that's an interesting point about an Infinity Starter pack .. although arguably there is less of a need for it, simply because the model count is so small. Perhaps 2 of the most popular factions (Pan O and Yu Jing, with a starter rulebook in side and some D20s?) - might definitely be an idea!
I have to be honest though, I don't hear people describing it as expensive too often! It can become expensive.. a friend of mine who insists on buying every single model for a faction for instance, but then that is the same with every game. The point is you can play with a starter, and a blister pack or two perfectly well. Buy from Wayland games and you have everything you need to play for around the £40-£45 mark.
@ evancich - that's an interesting point about historical games you have made, and reasons for not playing them. Funnily enough I believe HG Wells (one of the pioneers of wargaming) said that he hoped wargames would prove to be an alternative for war - that men might 'beat their chests' and play those games, rather than the need for actually fighting one another! Sadly his prediction was not correct (although maybe it means society would be better off with more games around! )
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Post by: steve2112
Me and a buddy just started playing infinity, coming from necromunda. We each demo'd the game with old figures and like it. Now we each got a faction starter box and like 1 extra mini. Next moth he is buying the rulebook and i am getting paradisio. Its not expensive at all and with the small model count much more economical.
I played 40k with some people last night and I just can bring myself to spend 35 bucks on 5 guys that comprise at 10 percent of what i MUST have to play a normal 1850 game. I just dont have that sort of cash even to add to my exsisting army. A game like infinity or warpath or necromunda just lets you take it easy and build up. That was what i am trying to explain to my local game store. Parents with give there kids 35 bucks for a inifinity sized game to get started but to tell them they need to dish out 150 to even start is rough.
What will get GW in the long run is a lack of games to bring people in at small price point. I started with necromunda and loved it. I then switch to 40k. It was logical and i trusted the rules and scope and back then the game were smaller and the prices better. Now its just crazy. The lower entrance fee games will be on a rise. I can see a shop playing a bunch of different games like wild west exodus, infinity, dark potential, warpath. The only problem will be for the shop to layout enough cash to get the minis in stock.
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Post by: Eggs
I appreciate the responses to the thread. Some great points and other game systems for me to look at here. Though I'm not buying ANYTHING else until I've built, primed, and at least base-coated all the Warmachine, Dust and Infinity stuff, and tried a few games of each.
I have to say that the whole experience has been a bit of a revelation. When I started out the first time around, GW was all there was. It was either 40k, Fantasy or Epic, or you were looking at D&D or maybe homemade rulesets. I think it's a very exiting time to be a wargamer. The amount of choice out there is staggering, and if nothing else, as some of the competition grows, they will all force each other to keep raising the bar. In addition, the huge array of different aesthetics, means there truly is something for everyone at the minute, and long may that last. Its nice to have skull-less models, as well as skullfests.
As a side note; despite the fact that individual Infinity minis are the most expensive of this selection, they are the first factions I have plans to expand. It shows that if the model quality is cool enough, folks (well me at least), will stump up for the gravy.
Now, back to the drawing board for me, to come up with a table that's adaptable for all these systems. 
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Post by: JWhex
While I hope these various games have a long life for the sake of their publishers, I have been burned too many times buying games that no one plays after a couple of years. Outside of 40k and whfb the only games I have any confidence in for the long haul are warmahordes and FoW.
I see video games and other hobbies as competitiors for GW games as much as these various systems mentioned here. Some people I am positive are drawn to 40k tabletop games because of the background. If they find the 40k price too high there is no gaurantee that a person is going to pick another miniature game instead, that is an unwarranted assumption.
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Post by: Pacific
That's very true... although I think the internet, when used effectively, and easier global distribution make it easier than ever before for smaller companies to grow and succeed. The growth figures for the market over the past few years are testament to that, and that some of these small companies have managed to grow despite selling a 'leisure' product and in the tougher economic conditions.
Even those companies that don't make it big can have loyal followings of small numbers of fans who attend events, play the games and buy just enough to keep the producers ticking over - not everything needs to make it massive and make huge numbers of $, and indeed I think certain concepts and style of game will only ever appeal to a small number. I think you're right in that the background of 40k is tremendously evocative though, to the point where in some ways it actually eclipses the gaming experience.
Not to say that that all of these companies will survive though (look on Wayland Games, or any other large retailers website, and it's amazing how many different games there are these days!)..and the side of the road is littered with the bones of companies that have failed...
PS - for the sake of the players as well as the publishers! If there were only 2 or 3 games on the market (whatever they were) I don't think the industry would last very long..
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Post by: JWhex
I think kickstarters also have a very serious downside in regard to new games surviving. When kickstarters soak up a huge amount of the initial demand, yes its great they help launch the product, but this is also causing a lot of gamestores to NOT stock these games and figures.
Personally I wont buy any kickstarter stuff until it hits my local retailer because I want to support his shop where I play.
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Post by: -Loki-
Just a note about Infinity, you say it'll be another 50 quid until you'll have both forces at a playable state.
That might be true for full 300 point lists, but do not go for that right away. Figure out what additional fig or two you need to get the forces to 100/150pts. You should only need 1-2 per faction. Once there, they are at a perfectly good size to play games at until you're used to the rules.
Infinity is a complex game. The old method of 'buy a full army and learn the game' is just an excercise in futility with Infinity. In fact, most people suggest buying a couple of starters, but only using the line infantry (for example, the Kamael from the Tohaa) and a 'special' model (like the Tohaa Sakiel), and not bother about points values for a few games, not use things like Camo, mines, link teams, etc until you've got the base rules well and truly known.
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Post by: hellpato
If I don't look the cost of everything in this topic, my big question is about the gaming system. What are the pro and con for them?
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Post by: heartserenade
Eggs wrote:Riquende - while I don't mind paying the higher price, as the models are pretty nice, you certainly need more than the 12 guys.
A usual 300 point list in Infinity will have more or less 10 models, give or take one or two. Usually you just get better units, not more, as the points rise because you can only put 10 men in a combat group. Aside from the occasional horde list (which are very clunky to play), you won't need to have more than 10 models.
Note: A 300 point list is like a 2000 point army in 40k. So if you're starting, don't play in 300 points right away. Stay at 150 because you'll get overwhelmed fast.
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Post by: Lanrak
Hi all.
I find it odd that 'evancich's grading system' for alternative games , has NO MENTION of rules clarity brevity or elegance.Or the depth and diversity of game play.
If you only evaluate a system by how cool the background sounds , and how appealing the minatures are to paint.
And totally ignore the game play and quality of the rules , (and therefore over all value for money.)
Its no surprise 40k does so well.
If we rated GAMES SYSTEM on
Rules .
Clarity.
Brevity.
Elegance.
Game play.
Depth of tactical complexity..
Depth of strategic complication
And leave out background and minature asthetics, as these are totally subjective.
We could get a more subjective over view of each system IMO.
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Post by: Grot 6
JWhex wrote:I think kickstarters also have a very serious downside in regard to new games surviving. When kickstarters soak up a huge amount of the initial demand, yes its great they help launch the product, but this is also causing a lot of gamestores to NOT stock these games and figures.
Personally I wont buy any kickstarter stuff until it hits my local retailer because I want to support his shop where I play.
This and the flash in the pan attention. After the KS dies down, the game has to be pretty strong to stand on its own. Then the little issue about "Distributors" not stocking the KS stuff..... 
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Post by: Bossk_Hogg
 Grot 6 wrote:JWhex wrote:I think kickstarters also have a very serious downside in regard to new games surviving. When kickstarters soak up a huge amount of the initial demand, yes its great they help launch the product, but this is also causing a lot of gamestores to NOT stock these games and figures.
Personally I wont buy any kickstarter stuff until it hits my local retailer because I want to support his shop where I play.
This and the flash in the pan attention. After the KS dies down, the game has to be pretty strong to stand on its own. Then the little issue about "Distributors" not stocking the KS stuff.....
Have we really seen anything to indicate distrubtors wont stock it though? Looking over the big mini kickstarters, Reaper Bones, Relic Knights, Zombicide, Mantic's games are all going to be stocked through distributors. Kingdom Death most likely wont, but it never really was before outside of Coolminiornot because Adam runs it as a botique, so thats a deliberate choice. On the mid tier you have WWX, no clue if that's going to remain direct only or get picked up for distrubution, but nothing is out yet. Darklands is available at discounts through the Warstore and FRPGames, so its got a US distributor or they worked out a deal w Mierce. Those are the only ones I'm aware of that did $200k+.
So I dont really see any KS game that did significant money not being carried by distributors. If anything, the fact that people are willing to fork over a decent chunk of change on something based on concept art, renders and a few greens as proof the stuff can sell.
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Post by: Cyporiean
Generally, if you are already in distribution you'll continue to be listed.
It's much harder to get into Distro in the first place.
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Post by: Fishboy
I dipped my toes into Malifaux and have to say it is pretty good. The models are great, especially for a painter like myself, the game play is pretty good too. Rules get a little complicated but I only played it for a few months due to a relocation. Biggest problem is finding the player base. They dont have a "starter set" per se. Instead they do something similar to Infinity where you can choose to buy a "faction". This is usually a base line and can be played right on the table at the right points. It is a fun game and the flow of the game is interesting. I had to think very differently from my 40K thought process and turn allocation heh,
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Post by: Easy E
Buy the Tomorrow's War/Force-on-Force rulebook, and you won't even need new models. It is a good system that let's you use whatever you have handy.
Great action/reaction system with a focus on Troop Quality. Fun times.
Edit: This is the type of thread where you just banner wave for your favorite system right?
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Post by: Ensis Ferrae
Eggs wrote:
So, those are my initial thoughts. I was going to get Malifaux too, but they don't do a starter as such either, and I don't really want to trawl internet forums to find out which models are useful or not. I was assured that in infinity there are no useless models. I'll maybe get some malifaux stuff at a later date.
I have found that Malifaux is much like your assessment of Infinity. There are no useless models. However, if you use a model in the wrong context (with the wrong boss, or in a manner they really aren't designed for), you'll find it difficult to use. One thing I'd through in here, the base rule book has a chart for converting your standard poker deck of cards over to the malifaux suit system, however it really is just a ton easier to get a deck with the Malifaux markings.
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Post by: evancich
Lanrak wrote:Hi all.
I find it odd that 'evancich's grading system' for alternative games , has NO MENTION of rules clarity brevity or elegance.Or the depth and diversity of game play.
If you only evaluate a system by how cool the background sounds , and how appealing the minatures are to paint.
And totally ignore the game play and quality of the rules , (and therefore over all value for money.)
Its no surprise 40k does so well.
If we rated GAMES SYSTEM on
Rules .
Clarity.
Brevity.
Elegance.
Game play.
Depth of tactical complexity..
Depth of strategic complication
And leave out background and minature asthetics, as these are totally subjective.
We could get a more subjective over view of each system IMO.
I have NO MENTION of rules , because I don't really care about the rules.
The "single player" portion of the experience is what I care about when I'm not at the game table, and right now, only 40k, Dust, and Warmahordes are the only games with any fluff expended beyond the rule book.
The "multi player" portion of the experience is driven by popularity. If the rule set is the most amazing thing crafted, but only 2 people in my area care about it, then those rules don't do me much good.
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Post by: chromedog
 Easy E wrote:Buy the Tomorrow's War/Force-on-Force rulebook, and you won't even need new models. It is a good system that let's you use whatever you have handy.
Great action/reaction system with a focus on Troop Quality. Fun times.
Edit: This is the type of thread where you just banner wave for your favorite system right?
+1.
I did this. I even played a few games of it WITH my GW space marines and guard.
It takes a bit more effort to do (something I've noticed many of GWs patrons don't like doing. Making effort, that is.).
Should be even easier to convert players across when By Dagger or Talon comes out.
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Post by: Byte
I suggest you buy game systems that have a local player base. Otherwise the models become dust collectors...
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Post by: frozenwastes
The easiest way to get games going is to stop relying on other people to join in with you when you start and instead get together two small forces and start running games. Small local cons, store games days, etc., Privateer, for example, knows this works so well that they have a volunteer force about doing exactly that. As does Wyrd and now even Warlord is starting up such a program.
Limiting yourself to what other people like is a good way to be bored unless you happen to also like it.
I've never, ever had a problem getting people going on a game I'm interested in through the demoing/participation event approach.
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Post by: Kaptajn Congoboy
Yep. If you build it, they will come. We started out with 2 Wm/H players in Oslo in 2009 and are currently looking at around 40-60 locally and a natinonal scene of 100-140, with multiple tournaments and growing all the while.
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Post by: Eggs
Frozen Wastes/ kaptajn congoboy- That's exactly why I based my assessment on getting two useable factions for each system, and why I think discounted 2 player boxes are a good thing.
Most of my friends aren't into wargaming, and those that are, are happy enough to poodle around with 40k. They aren't going to drop a wedge on a faction for a new system, so if I want to try a game out, I figure it is on me to put two small factions together, so that I can get them to try it with no fuss. If the system is enjoyable, I have every faith then they will start up their own factions.
Even my non wargaming friends will have a go from time to time if I can provide all the toys - they get very interested when they see a bunch of painted models sitting on my shelf.
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Post by: marv335
I'm just getting into Malifaux, My locan store has a player base, the models look good, and the rules are free.
Total starting cost to me, about £20.
Of course, it won't end there, it never does...
I've also started Urban War, which is a very nice skirmish game with smooth rules and nice models, unfortunately the models are a little hard to get hold of.
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Post by: Lanrak
In reply to evancinch.
Well I agree most people that are into 40k are not interested in the rules.(Jervis said over 2/3 of all GW customers never actually play a game.)
This is probably because GW is not interested in game play, just '...selling toy soldiers to children....'
But as GW competitors are in the title of the thread, and most of these companies use good rules and engaging game play to drive sales .(Instead of 'B&M stores and the hard sell.')
It may be prudent to get a more objective rating system on rules quality and depth of game play.
@Eggs.
I agree the value for money a 2 player starter set offers is very important in launching a new game system into a group of players.
FoW is a good game with a WWII setting.It is easy to swap the setting for an alternate 1940s one.(Weird War II , Captain America, Hell Boy,etc.)
If you do not like historical war.
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Post by: ArbitorIan
@ OP
This would make a great article. Or, maybe fold other people's reviews (salad fingers' seem based on your own criteria) into the OP?
It would be great to have a general comparison of starter sets floating around on the web..
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Post by: fynn
I have the FOW open fire starter set, and i must say, its great value for money, and with 2 resonable sized forces included to learn with, and to then build apon is a great bonus. i also like that included in the getting started booklet, is a basicly army list for both alies and germans that you can use to build your army up from, with out having to buy any extra books to start with (looks side ways at WHFB and WH40K). Add in the added bonus of lots of other companys making 15mm models that fit with the game, your on a winner (if you like WWII war games that is)
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Post by: Eggs
Arbitorian - I may well draft up an article, adding in what folk have added.
There has been a lot of love for a couple other systems in here, so I may have to check them out too.
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Post by: Civik
There are two forces in the box, that seem fairly well balanced. There are 17 minis in the box, of which, 4 are 'dreadnaught' class, i.e. big minis. Talking of big, they are all pretty big. They seem a lot chunkier than GW models, with only the 2 warcasters seeming in a similar general scale to GW. The Man-o-war troops for example, dwarf a standard Space Marine. There is little in the way of assembly instructions, and there seems to be no logic on how the parts are bagged up. Menoth models are bagged individually for example, while the 5 Man-o-war models are in one big bag.
I would have to agree with the mould lines. If you take a close look at the heavy warjacks and the pour locations for the main torso, it is concave making this part harder to clean up. Also some asymmetry that drives me nuts.
However, as far as games, it has been a great deal of fun to play. Also the bigger infantry models should be treated or considered more like terminators rather than standard infantry. Although the khador troops are much more defensive whereas the Cinerators are Princess Vespa when their armor gets singed.
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Post by: Eggs
I'm just about done clearing mold lines off the first jack, and it has been more challenging than what I'm used to with gw stuff. I hope none of the rough bits show up after primer!
I've decided I'm going to compile a general article on different systems, I'm already going to include 40k, fantasy battle, infinity, warmahordes and dust tactics/warfare. I'd like to include malifaux, fow, x wing and any others anyone thinks might be suitable, but I haven't started with them, so if anyone has an opinion or favourite, please share.
I'm looking from the viewpoint of getting two factions to get started, not so much about game mechanics. More like initial purchases required, general aesthetics, quality of models, value for money etc. though if there is a particularly unusual mechanic, such as the card system in malifaux, please feel free to mention it.
I want to make it as balanced as possible, so the more opinion, the better. I'll do a second article on actual rule sets, game depth and balance at a later date.
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Post by: BryllCream
To the op - which starter set would you recommend for someone wanting a large battle with solid gameplay?
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Post by: Eggs
To be honest, I wouldn't be comfortable recommending anything based on gameplay yet - I haven't had time to get to grips with any of them yet - I'm still at the assembling and priming stage! I've had a few games of dust tactics already, and it seems pretty simple and easy to get into. It's also well balanced, and you get a decent wedge of minis to get you started.
Truth be told though, if its a high model count you're after, both 40k and whfb have much higher number of minis than any of the other starters. Not sure if you already play either of those. The gameplay is what they call 'beer and pretzels' in that some of the rules and mechanics are down to randomness. That's not to say it doesn't have depth. Personally, I wouldn't play either competitively though; there is too much 'newest army is best' syndrome going on. Other makers seem to expand the factions in a more balanced way.
Ask me again in 6 months. Sorry I can't be more help.
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Post by: frozenwastes
I've been playing various model count games and have come to the conclusion that if you want a 40k level model count with individually based models, 40k is the only product that offers both miniatures and rules by the same producer with that model count and not multiple figures per stand. Now if you're willing to get miniatures you like from one seller and rules from another source (be it commercial or free) you have lots of great options. Ones worth trying out include: Fast And Dirty 4 - a great set of rules where squads fight other squads but the miniatures are still individually based. It's a bit of a toolkit approach but most experienced wargamers should have no trouble. FREE http://www.freewebs.com/weaselfierce/ FUBAR - A one page set of rules that works and is fast enough to handle lots of models. It will also probably take some work setting up the forces and scenarios. FREE http://thegamesshed.wordpress.com/2010/06/17/fubar-one-page-sfmodern-rules/ SuperSystem - A super hero miniature game with a great building system that lets you build pretty much anything (as super heroes have fought with and against pretty much everything). It handles units of mooks/grunts as well as individuals but again, you'll have to build your forces using the construction rules. 50 or so grunts a side and a hero or two will take about three hours to play, longer until you're familiar with the system. NOT FREE http://www.wargamedownloads.com/item.php?item=822 Company Commander - A 20th century to near future skirmish game that is very much a mind bender. It's not rules heavy, but It's based on some very innovative ideas and punishes bad tactical play. Armed forces members I've played the game with find it to be too much like real modern combat to the point of it being potentially frustrating if you're just looking to move some guys around and make pew pew sounds. Like when all your guys are pinned down because you just rushed them forward and you forgot to leave a reserve do properly set up your fire lanes. This one requires rethinking what you know about miniature wargaming and play can leave you intellectually exhausted. FREE in a yahoo group http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/Company_Commander/ I don't think any of these suggestions are going to be appropriate for someone wanting an already ready to go game that also happens to match the 40k forces. They're going to require some set up work and some taking ownership of your hobby.
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Post by: Eggs
Cheers for that, that is useful info.
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Post by: fynn
 BryllCream wrote:To the op - which starter set would you recommend for someone wanting a large battle with solid gameplay?
what style of game are you after? Fantasy, sci-fi, historical, ect,ect
Depending on what your after will dictate any surgestions for a starter set.
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Post by: Gentleman_Jellyfish
 fynn wrote: BryllCream wrote:To the op - which starter set would you recommend for someone wanting a large battle with solid gameplay?
what style of game are you after? Fantasy, sci-fi, historical, ect,ect
Depending on what your after will dictate any surgestions for a starter set.
It's a trap. He'd probably come back with something like "but muh fiction"
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Post by: Pacific
Oh absolutely, he's attempting to troll by implying that 40k is the only mass-battle system with 'solid gameplay'.
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Post by: Kanluwen
 Pacific wrote:Oh absolutely, he's attempting to troll by implying that 40k is the only mass-battle system with 'solid gameplay'.
Is he really wrong though?
Off the top of my head for "mass-battle systems" for 28mm I can only think of Warpath and 40k.
I am sure there are more rule sets, but they do not necessarily have miniature support.
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Post by: Pacific
For sci-fi perhaps no, although 'I think just 40k fills that criteria' would be a less troll-ish way of putting it.
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Post by: Lanrak
There are loads of excellent mass battle rule sets out there.
HOWEVER, most large scale battle games tend to use minatures in scale with the size of the game.(So they fit on a standard 6x4 table without looking cramped. )
Eg games similar in scale to 40k are usually in 15 to 20mm.
Larger scale games use 10mm down to tiny 2mm minatures ,often with multiple minatures per base.
There is a reason 40k is the only massed battle system using 28mm heroic minatures .It is because GW plc is in the buisness of selling toy soldiers.
And every edition they want to up the model count, and increase the size and cost of a full army.
I would say that Epic Armageddon delivers much better game play for massed battles in the 40k universe.(With much better game balance and far less complicated rules.)
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Post by: Eggs
I was a big fan of epic back in the day. I still have some parts of my Titan legion, though I sold my squats on fleabay for a fortune.
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Post by: Lanrak
Eggs.
If it was Epic Space Marine you used to play, it lives on under the fan supported NetEpic banner.(Free to download the same as Epic Armageddon if you are interested,)
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Post by: Fafnir
For what it's worth, Infinity is the cheapest of the games you listed as far as expansion is concerned.
That said, the presence of a starter kit is obviously lacking.
I remember when the FLGS owner ordered a demo kit for Infinity after I told him about it. The rules didn't really appeal to him, so he ended up giving me the demo box. It contained 4 PanO (Sikh, Orc, two Fusileers) and 4 Ariadna (Veteran Kazak, Chasseurs, 2 Line Kazaks) models, fitting a list of 100 points each. Was actually a pretty solid box, and would make for a great starter kit if they could include a mini rulebook and a few D20. Especially if they could keep the price below $40.
The current faction-based starter boxes that they have aren't particularly good. They're only worth buying if you want all the models in the set, really.
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Post by: frozenwastes
It's true that most of the rest of the larger wargaming hobby realized that once you start representing a company or more per side, it's best to reduce the figure scale. It's pretty much only GW and Mantic that are trying to push 100-200 models per side sci-fi games in 28mm. Everyone else starts considering 6mm, 10mm and 15mm pretty quickly as it just makes sense. There's even something to be said for 3mm:
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Post by: BryllCream
fynn wrote: BryllCream wrote:To the op - which starter set would you recommend for someone wanting a large battle with solid gameplay?
what style of game are you after? Fantasy, sci-fi, historical, ect,ect
Depending on what your after will dictate any surgestions for a starter set.
I don't mind too much about genre. I suppose I'd prefer sci fi or fantasy, but I would be averse to historical if the gameplay was solid enough.
And scale doesn't concern me too much. I already have my pretties after all 
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Post by: Capt. Camping
The cheapest is Malifaux and I dont play it. You can get a starter from $29 to $40.
I notice that competitors are loosing buyers by not offering vehicles alternatives to GW, specially APC and tanks in 28mm scale. The cheapest tanks I have seen is Dust Warfare and scale models for $20
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Post by: Alfndrate
 Capt. Camping wrote:The cheapest is Malifaux and I dont play it. You can get a starter from $29 to $40.
I notice that competitors are loosing buyers by not offering vehicles alternatives to GW, specially APC and tanks in 28mm scale. The cheapest tanks I have seen is Dust Warfare and scale models for $20
Except that to offer vehicle alternatives to GW, they would have to offer games that need rules for vehicles.
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Post by: Capt. Camping
For example the guys at Mantic forums they want more vehicles for Warpath since 1.0 and 2.0 at good prices.
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Post by: TheAuldGrump
Eldercaveman wrote:Can I suggest you try Dreadball, Dreadball fever has recently hit my gaming club, and it would be really interesting to here your thoughts on that system.
I really do not much like Dreadball.... But at at least one of my games I am the only one that doesn't.
So, I am going to have to say that they are all wrong it is a good game, possibly a great game, but not for me.
It has replaced Bloodbowl in at least one local campaign.
Also... a team is something that you would only need to buy once - no real need to add much more to the cost once you have it.
One other thing - because the ball drops back in the middle as soon as the goal is scored you can find your team way out of position if you concentrated too much on scoring.
Scores are from the middle to either side so if one side has a score of 3 then the other side has a score of 0. If that team gets four points then the score will be 1 for them, and 0 for the other side....
It is a very fast game. I just wish that I liked it. (And I do like it better than Bloodbowl.)
The Auld Grump
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Post by: Yodhrin
Lanrak wrote:There are loads of excellent mass battle rule sets out there.
HOWEVER, most large scale battle games tend to use minatures in scale with the size of the game.(So they fit on a standard 6x4 table without looking cramped. )
Eg games similar in scale to 40k are usually in 15 to 20mm.
Larger scale games use 10mm down to tiny 2mm minatures ,often with multiple minatures per base.
There is a reason 40k is the only massed battle system using 28mm heroic minatures .It is because GW plc is in the buisness of selling toy soldiers.
And every edition they want to up the model count, and increase the size and cost of a full army.
I would say that Epic Armageddon delivers much better game play for massed battles in the 40k universe.(With much better game balance and far less complicated rules.)
Very much this. While I'm certainly not GW's biggest fan, I will say that some of the complaints about price are based in situations that are more the fault of the gamer than the Games Workshop - just because they want you to play 1850pts-to-Apocalypse level games in no way means you have to(tournament gamers excepted of course, since they don't get to choose the size of their games); all of my existing and planned army lists top out at 1500pts, and it's entirely possible to build fun, fluffy, or competitive forces at that level and below. I'd much rather play Epic than any large game of 40K(and I'm super-sad I sold off my armies years ago and never had a chance to buy new ones before GW squatted the SGs).
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Post by: Ouze
So what is the average model count for Dust Tactics? How long does a game last, and how long does gameplay setup take?
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Post by: Capt. Camping
I only played Dust once and saw another game of 150 points (one leader, two squads and a mech). It takes like one hour, but we did not know the rules very well so it could be faster. I find the rules less complex than 40k or fantasy and it seems Andy Chambers tried to add some balance to the game.
One good thing about Dust is the price/quantity/quality not seen is any other game. Vehicles are big with great detail and good prices. I have not seen any Dust mini looking ugly to the eye in design. Its just like Paolo Parente supervised all of them.
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Post by: Briancj
I think to define the outline of an article for Dakka, we should discuss what we think a Starter Box should do. Myself, I am biased towards using a starter box to demo the game.
Here is what I think a starter box should provide. Please, build upon this.
A starter box should provide:
A price point where two people who pool their money can afford the game.
Rules for the game. Even a set of 'starter' rules. A card indicating that the rules are available 'online' does not help the two people who just unwrapped the box at a store or convention.
Enough dice for two people to play the game. ESPECIALLY if they are special dice.
Enough models for two people to play the game FULLY.
Some form of measuring device. Paper rulers may suck, but they allow players to play RIGHT NOW.
At least two balanced factions.
Things that put a starter box above and beyond:
Bonus materials (background, etc.)
Terrain
Full rules
An exceptional price/value balance.
So, I'll knock out a few starters, to, uh, start. My immediate takeaway is that no game provides enough dice.
Poor - Fair - Good - Great - Excellent
X-Wing:
Price: Great. Clearly priced as a 'loss leader' to get people into the game.
Rules: Yes.
Dice: Not enough, can't even handle the units in the box.
Models: Not enough. One X-Wing and two Tie-Fighters can demo the game, but that's about it.
Ruler: Yes, a full set of maneuver templates.
Factions: Barely.
Bonus: Punch-out terrain, tokens. Full rules.
Comment: While this hits most of the notes, having only three starfighters in the box doesn't allow you to really play the game. Clearly designed for teaching/demos.
40K:
Price: Great. Model count is high.
Rules: Barely.
Dice: Barely.
Models: Exceptional
Ruler: Do not mock the whippy sticks.
Factions: Two full sides, but not points balanced.
Bonus: Learning scenarios that build up each side, teaching the basics.
Comment: Great model count, people still buy these Starter sets for that alone.
Battletech:
Price: Incredible. Model count is high for the game, and you can have four or more people play with one box.
Rules: Starter.
Dice: Barely.
Models: Great. The re-jiggering of the box set will put better quality models, and a better mix, making this Excellent.
Ruler: Paper.
Factions: Multiple. A starter set that can put four people on the table?
Bonus: Background material, sturdy cardboard hexboards.
Comment: I feel that this is the best starter box out there.
Leviathans:
Price: Fair. You get everything, but it is expensive, compared to other starter boxes.
Rules: Starter and full.
Dice: Barely.
Models: Good. Enough for two full factions, one ship of each major type, plus class cards.
Ruler: Paper
Factions: Two.
Bonus: Everything you need to play, including hex boards and all tokens. The models are pre-painted (well), the game comes with materials needed for the expansion, there's a ton of background materials, etc.
Comment: An amazing starter box. Two players can unpack and play immediately, and the rules have a starter/learning level and a full set. Only drawback is the expense.
Add your own!
--B.
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Post by: cammy
I know this is mainly a sci fi sort of other games thread , however has anyone played Hail Ceaser or Pike and Shotte/black powder
as I am drawn towards trying out one of these systems, especially as its based on the warmaster system
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Post by: frozenwastes
They are all solid, having Warmaster as their foundation. The down sides:
a) require a larger table space unless you are willing to shrink your unit base sizes
b) no points system as they're more traditional historical wargames where you might build to a specific battle or follow some general guidelines and build a game as an event rather than a competition
c) high model count unless you change the figures per unit.
Other than that, they're awesome. And it's arguable that the lack of a points system can be a feature as it gets the players out of the power list mindset.
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Post by: cammy
 frozenwastes wrote:They are all solid, having Warmaster as their foundation. The down sides:
a) require a larger table space unless you are willing to shrink your unit base sizes
b) no points system as they're more traditional historical wargames where you might build to a specific battle or follow some general guidelines and build a game as an event rather than a competition
c) high model count unless you change the figures per unit.
Other than that, they're awesome. And it's arguable that the lack of a points system can be a feature as it gets the players out of the power list mindset.
im not to fussed about lack of points as it would be more for local gming in my group - also one of my favorate parts of the hobby is the terrain maing so I might rise to the challenge and make some huge boards - or alternitavly I might make some large boards and use metric measuremnts for game mechanics not imperial to shrink the distance stuff happens at.
thanks for the pointers
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Post by: Pacific
I'm just painting up a load of the Hail Caesar stuff, fantastic little miniatures.
Really what Frozenwastes has listed as his points A & C is the same point - have a read around on some historical forums about the game and there are many suggestions about knocking down unit sizes if necessary, the practise is common place I believe.
Also point B is not correct - there are point values for pretty much everything if you buy an army list book depending on which period you want to play. It's a little looser than some games, and a lot is left for the player to re-create particular battles, but this is commonplace for historical games.
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Post by: Zatsuku
Warmachine Two-Player Battle Box
Price: Above and beyond, at retail the models alone would be double the price of the box.
Rules: Yup.
Dice: Enough.
Models: More than enough for good beginner games, and they are well matched forces. They're beautiful too.
Ruler: Yes, but it's paper.
Factions: Two factions, well balanced and they are good starters for building up those factions.
Bonus: Full rules, and a good intro guide+quick start rules to get new players right into the action.
Comment: My favorite starter product for any game I have owned, great value, great playability, great models.
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Post by: Herzlos
 Briancj wrote:
X-Wing:
Price: Great. Clearly priced as a 'loss leader' to get people into the game.
Rules: Yes.
Dice: Not enough, can't even handle the units in the box.
Models: Not enough. One X-Wing and two Tie-Fighters can demo the game, but that's about it.
Ruler: Yes, a full set of maneuver templates.
Factions: Barely.
Bonus: Punch-out terrain, tokens. Full rules.
Comment: While this hits most of the notes, having only three starfighters in the box doesn't allow you to really play the game. Clearly designed for teaching/demos.
I agree with all of that, the dice in the box are useable, but it's easy to get into a position where you need more than it comes with so you need to use re-rolls. It's annoying but not terminal. Well worth buying an extra set if you're getting into the game though.
Same with the ships; it'll potentially get a bit dull with only 1 X-Wing and 2 Tie-Fighters, but with the unit and upgrade cards there's still enough to get started with and at about £12 for additional ships (that come with all the cards you need) it's easy enough to gradually expand.
Maybe it didn't seem so limiting to me as my friend and I bought a box each so after our first game were using 2 X-Wings Vs 4 Tie-Fighters, with 6 of each dice. Automatically Appended Next Post: frozenwastes wrote:They are all solid, having Warmaster as their foundation. The down sides:
a) require a larger table space unless you are willing to shrink your unit base sizes
Which is easy enough to do, as the bases are all small/medium/large with no fixed measurements. Essentially as long as the frontages on both armies just about match it's fine.
b) no points system as they're more traditional historical wargames where you might build to a specific battle or follow some general guidelines and build a game as an event rather than a competition
I thought they did have points in the core rule book, or at least a guide on generating points? I know the army lists have points and are fairly reasonably priced (~£15).
c) high model count unless you change the figures per unit.
There's no requirements for figures per unit either, so you can use fairly sparse bases if you wanted to reduce the model count. Or drop to a smaller scale or whatever.
Other than that, they're awesome. And it's arguable that the lack of a points system can be a feature as it gets the players out of the power list mindset.
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Post by: Briancj
Herzlos wrote:
Maybe it didn't seem so limiting to me as my friend and I bought a box each so after our first game were using 2 X-Wings Vs 4 Tie-Fighters, with 6 of each dice.
And that's my problem. You had to buy two boxes to play the game. At the X-Wing starter price point, that's not a bad investment. But we're trying to determine the value of a single starter box, and we shouldn't qualify it by saying "It works if you buy 'X' more product'.
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Post by: Pacific
Game is perfectly playable with the starter set and without buying anything else, have had a tremendous amount of fun for the £30 in fact!
Herzlos, read my post 2 above yours, there are points values when you get the period specific books.
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Post by: Breotan
Briancj, why do you say "Rules: Barely." for 40k? It comes with a mini rulebook that has ALL the rules for 40k in it.
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Post by: Noir
 Breotan wrote:Briancj, why do you say "Rules: Barely." for 40k? It comes with a mini rulebook that has ALL the rules for 40k in it.
No it comes with a rule book with the base rules, you NEED to BUY at least 1 codex to get "full rule set".
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Post by: Briancj
No, he's correct. The Dark Vengence starter came with a mini-rulebook.
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Post by: Eldercaveman
Briancj wrote:No, he's correct. The Dark Vengence starter came with a mini-rulebook.
What he is saying is that to play full games of 40k, you'd then have to purchase the codex's. But I'd dispute this as the starter set is an introduction to the game, as the armies aren't points balanced, but the box comes with set missions which are balanced in themselves, and let the players get to grips with the basics of the game, before complicating it with the extra specialised rules of the codex's.
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Post by: Noir
Eldercaveman wrote: Briancj wrote:No, he's correct. The Dark Vengence starter came with a mini-rulebook.
What he is saying is that to play full games of 40k, you'd then have to purchase the codex's. But I'd dispute this as the starter set is an introduction to the game, as the armies aren't points balanced, but the box comes with set missions which are balanced in themselves, and let the players get to grips with the basics of the game, before complicating it with the extra specialised rules of the codex's.
This, I get what your saying about the starter and missions, but until buy the codex is any option like with PP games. I'll say it not a full rule set because you still need to buy more to play the game the way it is meant to be played.
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Post by: doc1234
I've become somewhat of a hobby butterfly (or goldfish, take your pick) in the last month or two so i'll throw my hat in for what i've waded through so far.
Fubar: Someone said about it further back, I forget who. Nice little system (even got my none hobbyist friend to play it and he liked) however i'd really take a look on Forgeofwar for the UltraFUBAR rules. Community supported fixes and tweaks, and the closest to an "official" erata and update to the rules as you're likely going to get.
Horizon Wars: Made by Precinct Omega, it's technically 3 games that can either stand alone or work fine in support of each other. The PDF's are £1 each, though the "first" game, Mechawar has a print version available on lulu. Mechawar is the battletech style giant stompy robot game, without the hexes and encyclopedia of rulebooks, Airframe is the jet combat version. Battlegroup is the "tanks and infantry game" of more traditional 6mm sci-fi (still in open beta too, so free for a awhile). Rules are simple and follow the same mechanics through all 3 games, my only niggle with them is the writers military back ground seeps into it a little, had me scratching my head to begin with at the distinctions between say light and armoured artillery.
Heavy Gear Arena: No where near as pricey to get into as its large battle bigger brother, but $12 a mini for rather literally 6 mini's per team at most doesn't break the bank, especially if you're starting off with 2 or maybe 3 each. The books a tad cluttered (you're going to want ot hunt to extract the campaign rules from the main thing, and doesn't give you a hardline of "recommended points levels" for one off games) but a fairly fun system, especially the Stunts letting a giant stompy robot pull of stephen chow moves.
Dystopian Wars: Ok so not so much "playing with" as "went a little crazy with" with my japanese fleet. Nice fluff (alt history is always a good thing for me) that at least offers some kind of story progression and time line across the campaign books (not sure if the new one will break the trend, but each have roughly been following on fairly directly time wise from each other). Cheap to get into (a naval starter costs around £30 and will give you roughly two thirds of a "max" sized army (or rather the 2000 points 40k equivalent). Suffered a bit with "new hotness" syndrome, but Spartan seem to be getting their act together, even updating and buffing the older factions to keep them up to date and competitive with the new ones, rather than just shrugging their shoulders at the power creep. The rules will likely end up free online along with spartans other systems, but the stats for the ships are all free there anyway.
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Post by: ComTrav
As someone branching out and experimenting with non-GW games, I found this thread informative.
I sometimes find digesting all the new rules very hard, especially things that are very similar or I would probably not bother to check (I'm so used to TLOS, it's a little strange for me to play it any other way.)
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