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@evanich: You're grading system is confusing and arbitrary.

 Surtur wrote:
@evanich: You're grading system is confusing and arbitrary.

Of course it is, because everyone has reasons as to why they play the games they do.

I used to play Malifaux and Warmahordes for about a year and a half straight for each game. Both times, they dropped off as one game was not popular at my local store, and the other one is following suit. So what's currently my "go-to" game? 40k. While I have plenty of posts being critical of GW's antics and policies, I'm still going to play the games my friends want to play. We might move to something else for awhile. It all ebbs and flows.

evanich's grading system makes sense to him because it's what allows him to game.

 Breotan wrote:

 AduroT wrote:
A.) It's plastic, but a different kind of plastic than the GW standard. For example, plastic glue will not work on it, you have to use super glue.

It's actually a plastic/resin mix like finecast but without GW's inept execution.

Actually, it's not. It's straight up PVC.

In regards to 2-player starter sets, I hate them. You never get the faction you want and you always loose out on something. For 40k you loose all the great fluff in the rulebook and you get stuck with things that might not be worth it like the hellbrute. I hate trying to find people to split sets or selling stuff on ebay.

with something like infinity for $75 US you get the ANY 2 starter packs.So thats about 5.83 a mini. While they all might not be balanced 100% equally on there own if you like the game and by maybe 2 or 3 more minis over time they are fine. Also remember Corvus Belli encourages you to proxy stuff to try things out. You do run into the problem that the free rules do not include the fluff though.

I have never really seen much value in warmachine as i personally halt the sculpts. Not a fan of that style at all.

It would be great if companies or stores did a rulebook and 1 faction starter set discounts. Like 20% off both.

The thing about starter sets though, is that you don't have to buy them if you want a different faction. For those that just want a cheap way in, they are great. For those that want a different faction, they can buy the same as they would otherwise.

Grading system

Single player:
Fluff - Stuff to read / mythology / background / stories...
Painting - Are the mini's fun to paint? Do you have to paint many of the same model / pose?
Models - Do I like how they look? How many do I need? Are they a pain to assemble? Are they easy to break?
Lists: Is list building a significant part of the experience?

Multi:
on-line - podcasts, forums, blogs to read, ... stuff that has other's interacting with me or the other way around that isn't in-person and isn't playing the game, if there are only limited / regional / annoying choices?
player base: if I walk into a game store, what are my chances of getting a pick up game? How many GTs are there? How many RTTs are there? What sells well in my area? What are the game clubs playing?

Right now 40k "wins" in most of those. Like it or not. Chances are if GW continues on the path it is on, new players will chose a different system mostly due to cost (and they weren't exposed to the GW store in the mall, like kids 10 years ago were) and drive the older players (like me) to non-40k systems.

Right now, if I host both a 40k & Warmahorde RT at Drop Zone or Dream Wizards, the 40k one will get 15 players and the Warmahorde will get half that. I'm not saying it is right or wrong or the way things should be or insulting your system of choice, but just the trend here and now.

Personally, I wish DW / FSA was better supported and wasn't a flash in the pan around here. I'd like Dust to take off, since there is interesting fluff to read and I can buy the pre-painted models. Infinity would be great too, if more people played that. Warmahordes? Yes, it is probably the 2nd most popular game here. Painting models doesn't seem to be a priority to the players. I just don't like the fluff. The RTs I've played in were far less friendly than the 40k or Malifaux RTs. Maybe if the current 40k players flock to Warmahordes things will be different.

FoW? It might be the most awesome game ever, I don't like playing the role of folks that fought in actual wars and are buried / honored 20 miles from me.

Many players can't (or don't want to) support multiple systems and generally go with what is popular in their area, which is one of the reasons why getting a new system to stick is so difficult.

Lanrak wrote:

Also you can add to your 15mm WWII armies using other companies products, (Plastic Soldier Company ,Zevda, Forged In Battle, Command decision/Skytrex, etc.)

This is also a good idea, since PSC models cost like, a third what Battlefront's models do, and look just as good.

I'm surprised nobody chimed in on Mantic's upcoming Deadzone or 2nd edition Warpath. Deadzone has rules videos online, and had a very successful Kickstarter. Warpath is in the beta stage, but they are using player input to make 3rd edition awesome when it hits. You can play a game AND help improve its future.

I've also bought a lot of starters for games that aren't GW. None of my friends are really interested in doing another mini game, so I buy them mostly for my own amusement. OPs experiences match my own.

I think the best value and biggest winner in the 2-player start set competition is Flames of War, which I only got last week. The quality of the models, printed materials and included extras is beyond what I would expect for what I paid. Punch out terrain and couunters, full-color (half size) rule book, and a ton of other printed materials just make it a value-based winner. We'll see how I feel after I play some games. I can tell you I was not happy with the quality of the games you get out of the Warmahordes starters or Dust.

Definitely think that's an interesting point about an Infinity Starter pack .. although arguably there is less of a need for it, simply because the model count is so small. Perhaps 2 of the most popular factions (Pan O and Yu Jing, with a starter rulebook in side and some D20s?) - might definitely be an idea!

I have to be honest though, I don't hear people describing it as expensive too often! It can become expensive.. a friend of mine who insists on buying every single model for a faction for instance, but then that is the same with every game. The point is you can play with a starter, and a blister pack or two perfectly well. Buy from Wayland games and you have everything you need to play for around the £40-£45 mark.

@evancich - that's an interesting point about historical games you have made, and reasons for not playing them. Funnily enough I believe HG Wells (one of the pioneers of wargaming) said that he hoped wargames would prove to be an alternative for war - that men might 'beat their chests' and play those games, rather than the need for actually fighting one another! Sadly his prediction was not correct (although maybe it means society would be better off with more games around! )

Me and a buddy just started playing infinity, coming from necromunda. We each demo'd the game with old figures and like it. Now we each got a faction starter box and like 1 extra mini. Next moth he is buying the rulebook and i am getting paradisio. Its not expensive at all and with the small model count much more economical.

I played 40k with some people last night and I just can bring myself to spend 35 bucks on 5 guys that comprise at 10 percent of what i MUST have to play a normal 1850 game. I just dont have that sort of cash even to add to my exsisting army. A game like infinity or warpath or necromunda just lets you take it easy and build up. That was what i am trying to explain to my local game store. Parents with give there kids 35 bucks for a inifinity sized game to get started but to tell them they need to dish out 150 to even start is rough.

What will get GW in the long run is a lack of games to bring people in at small price point. I started with necromunda and loved it. I then switch to 40k. It was logical and i trusted the rules and scope and back then the game were smaller and the prices better. Now its just crazy. The lower entrance fee games will be on a rise. I can see a shop playing a bunch of different games like wild west exodus, infinity, dark potential, warpath. The only problem will be for the shop to layout enough cash to get the minis in stock.

I appreciate the responses to the thread. Some great points and other game systems for me to look at here. Though I'm not buying ANYTHING else until I've built, primed, and at least base-coated all the Warmachine, Dust and Infinity stuff, and tried a few games of each.

I have to say that the whole experience has been a bit of a revelation. When I started out the first time around, GW was all there was. It was either 40k, Fantasy or Epic, or you were looking at D&D or maybe homemade rulesets. I think it's a very exiting time to be a wargamer. The amount of choice out there is staggering, and if nothing else, as some of the competition grows, they will all force each other to keep raising the bar. In addition, the huge array of different aesthetics, means there truly is something for everyone at the minute, and long may that last. Its nice to have skull-less models, as well as skullfests.

As a side note; despite the fact that individual Infinity minis are the most expensive of this selection, they are the first factions I have plans to expand. It shows that if the model quality is cool enough, folks (well me at least), will stump up for the gravy.

Now, back to the drawing board for me, to come up with a table that's adaptable for all these systems.

While I hope these various games have a long life for the sake of their publishers, I have been burned too many times buying games that no one plays after a couple of years. Outside of 40k and whfb the only games I have any confidence in for the long haul are warmahordes and FoW.

I see video games and other hobbies as competitiors for GW games as much as these various systems mentioned here. Some people I am positive are drawn to 40k tabletop games because of the background. If they find the 40k price too high there is no gaurantee that a person is going to pick another miniature game instead, that is an unwarranted assumption.

That's very true... although I think the internet, when used effectively, and easier global distribution make it easier than ever before for smaller companies to grow and succeed. The growth figures for the market over the past few years are testament to that, and that some of these small companies have managed to grow despite selling a 'leisure' product and in the tougher economic conditions.

Even those companies that don't make it big can have loyal followings of small numbers of fans who attend events, play the games and buy just enough to keep the producers ticking over - not everything needs to make it massive and make huge numbers of $, and indeed I think certain concepts and style of game will only ever appeal to a small number. I think you're right in that the background of 40k is tremendously evocative though, to the point where in some ways it actually eclipses the gaming experience.

Not to say that that all of these companies will survive though (look on Wayland Games, or any other large retailers website, and it's amazing how many different games there are these days!)..and the side of the road is littered with the bones of companies that have failed...

PS - for the sake of the players as well as the publishers! If there were only 2 or 3 games on the market (whatever they were) I don't think the industry would last very long..

I think kickstarters also have a very serious downside in regard to new games surviving. When kickstarters soak up a huge amount of the initial demand, yes its great they help launch the product, but this is also causing a lot of gamestores to NOT stock these games and figures.

Personally I wont buy any kickstarter stuff until it hits my local retailer because I want to support his shop where I play.

Just a note about Infinity, you say it'll be another 50 quid until you'll have both forces at a playable state.

That might be true for full 300 point lists, but do not go for that right away. Figure out what additional fig or two you need to get the forces to 100/150pts. You should only need 1-2 per faction. Once there, they are at a perfectly good size to play games at until you're used to the rules.

Infinity is a complex game. The old method of 'buy a full army and learn the game' is just an excercise in futility with Infinity. In fact, most people suggest buying a couple of starters, but only using the line infantry (for example, the Kamael from the Tohaa) and a 'special' model (like the Tohaa Sakiel), and not bother about points values for a few games, not use things like Camo, mines, link teams, etc until you've got the base rules well and truly known.

If I don't look the cost of everything in this topic, my big question is about the gaming system. What are the pro and con for them?

 Eggs wrote:
Riquende - while I don't mind paying the higher price, as the models are pretty nice, you certainly need more than the 12 guys.

A usual 300 point list in Infinity will have more or less 10 models, give or take one or two. Usually you just get better units, not more, as the points rise because you can only put 10 men in a combat group. Aside from the occasional horde list (which are very clunky to play), you won't need to have more than 10 models.

Note: A 300 point list is like a 2000 point army in 40k. So if you're starting, don't play in 300 points right away. Stay at 150 because you'll get overwhelmed fast.

Hi all.
I find it odd that 'evancich's grading system' for alternative games , has NO MENTION of rules clarity brevity or elegance.Or the depth and diversity of game play.

If you only evaluate a system by how cool the background sounds , and how appealing the minatures are to paint.
And totally ignore the game play and quality of the rules , (and therefore over all value for money.)
Its no surprise 40k does so well.

If we rated GAMES SYSTEM on

Rules .

Clarity.
Brevity.
Elegance.

Game play.

Depth of tactical complexity..
Depth of strategic complication

And leave out background and minature asthetics, as these are totally subjective.
We could get a more subjective over view of each system IMO.

JWhex wrote:
I think kickstarters also have a very serious downside in regard to new games surviving. When kickstarters soak up a huge amount of the initial demand, yes its great they help launch the product, but this is also causing a lot of gamestores to NOT stock these games and figures.

Personally I wont buy any kickstarter stuff until it hits my local retailer because I want to support his shop where I play.

This and the flash in the pan attention. After the KS dies down, the game has to be pretty strong to stand on its own. Then the little issue about "Distributors" not stocking the KS stuff.....

 Grot 6 wrote:

JWhex wrote:
I think kickstarters also have a very serious downside in regard to new games surviving. When kickstarters soak up a huge amount of the initial demand, yes its great they help launch the product, but this is also causing a lot of gamestores to NOT stock these games and figures.

Personally I wont buy any kickstarter stuff until it hits my local retailer because I want to support his shop where I play.

This and the flash in the pan attention. After the KS dies down, the game has to be pretty strong to stand on its own. Then the little issue about "Distributors" not stocking the KS stuff.....

Have we really seen anything to indicate distrubtors wont stock it though? Looking over the big mini kickstarters, Reaper Bones, Relic Knights, Zombicide, Mantic's games are all going to be stocked through distributors. Kingdom Death most likely wont, but it never really was before outside of Coolminiornot because Adam runs it as a botique, so thats a deliberate choice. On the mid tier you have WWX, no clue if that's going to remain direct only or get picked up for distrubution, but nothing is out yet. Darklands is available at discounts through the Warstore and FRPGames, so its got a US distributor or they worked out a deal w Mierce. Those are the only ones I'm aware of that did $200k+.

So I dont really see any KS game that did significant money not being carried by distributors. If anything, the fact that people are willing to fork over a decent chunk of change on something based on concept art, renders and a few greens as proof the stuff can sell.

Generally, if you are already in distribution you'll continue to be listed.

It's much harder to get into Distro in the first place.

I dipped my toes into Malifaux and have to say it is pretty good. The models are great, especially for a painter like myself, the game play is pretty good too. Rules get a little complicated but I only played it for a few months due to a relocation. Biggest problem is finding the player base. They dont have a "starter set" per se. Instead they do something similar to Infinity where you can choose to buy a "faction". This is usually a base line and can be played right on the table at the right points. It is a fun game and the flow of the game is interesting. I had to think very differently from my 40K thought process and turn allocation heh,

Buy the Tomorrow's War/Force-on-Force rulebook, and you won't even need new models. It is a good system that let's you use whatever you have handy.

Great action/reaction system with a focus on Troop Quality. Fun times.

Edit: This is the type of thread where you just banner wave for your favorite system right?

 Eggs wrote:


So, those are my initial thoughts. I was going to get Malifaux too, but they don't do a starter as such either, and I don't really want to trawl internet forums to find out which models are useful or not. I was assured that in infinity there are no useless models. I'll maybe get some malifaux stuff at a later date.

I have found that Malifaux is much like your assessment of Infinity. There are no useless models. However, if you use a model in the wrong context (with the wrong boss, or in a manner they really aren't designed for), you'll find it difficult to use. One thing I'd through in here, the base rule book has a chart for converting your standard poker deck of cards over to the malifaux suit system, however it really is just a ton easier to get a deck with the Malifaux markings.

Lanrak wrote:
Hi all.
I find it odd that 'evancich's grading system' for alternative games , has NO MENTION of rules clarity brevity or elegance.Or the depth and diversity of game play.

If you only evaluate a system by how cool the background sounds , and how appealing the minatures are to paint.
And totally ignore the game play and quality of the rules , (and therefore over all value for money.)
Its no surprise 40k does so well.

If we rated GAMES SYSTEM on

Rules .

Clarity.
Brevity.
Elegance.

Game play.

Depth of tactical complexity..
Depth of strategic complication

And leave out background and minature asthetics, as these are totally subjective.
We could get a more subjective over view of each system IMO.

I have NO MENTION of rules , because I don't really care about the rules.

The "single player" portion of the experience is what I care about when I'm not at the game table, and right now, only 40k, Dust, and Warmahordes are the only games with any fluff expended beyond the rule book.

The "multi player" portion of the experience is driven by popularity. If the rule set is the most amazing thing crafted, but only 2 people in my area care about it, then those rules don't do me much good.

 Easy E wrote:
Buy the Tomorrow's War/Force-on-Force rulebook, and you won't even need new models. It is a good system that let's you use whatever you have handy.

Great action/reaction system with a focus on Troop Quality. Fun times.

Edit: This is the type of thread where you just banner wave for your favorite system right?

+1.

I did this. I even played a few games of it WITH my GW space marines and guard.
It takes a bit more effort to do (something I've noticed many of GWs patrons don't like doing. Making effort, that is.).
Should be even easier to convert players across when By Dagger or Talon comes out.

I suggest you buy game systems that have a local player base. Otherwise the models become dust collectors...

The easiest way to get games going is to stop relying on other people to join in with you when you start and instead get together two small forces and start running games. Small local cons, store games days, etc., Privateer, for example, knows this works so well that they have a volunteer force about doing exactly that. As does Wyrd and now even Warlord is starting up such a program.

Limiting yourself to what other people like is a good way to be bored unless you happen to also like it.

I've never, ever had a problem getting people going on a game I'm interested in through the demoing/participation event approach.

Yep. If you build it, they will come. We started out with 2 Wm/H players in Oslo in 2009 and are currently looking at around 40-60 locally and a natinonal scene of 100-140, with multiple tournaments and growing all the while.