Beats me. I haven't decided how to paint the one I'm building at the moment. Nor the other two. I'm really thinking about buying some more, just so I can really go to town with a whole bunch of different schemes, for fun and show. One will probably be done up in aged bronze, though, for use as a statue...and/or maybe one done up to look like it's marble or a similar stone.
Oh well. It'll take me another couple of days to get it ready for paint anyway. Was not up to much over the weekend, and still have a minor amount of clean-up at the back of the legs to do before I start.
Recently been working on using Alclad Candy Red on a model of Iron Man, but that certainly would not be the look I'm going for here.
Probably going for Vallejo black primer, followed by a very dark metallic look - possibly a variant "Black Knight" sort of thing in metallic, not flat black. If I do, gold trim is a certainty, possibly with some small amount of metallic red to pinpoint some features, with the bright silver/chrome sword blade.
Conrad Turner wrote: Oh well. It'll take me another couple of days to get it ready for paint anyway. Was not up to much over the weekend, and still have a minor amount of clean-up at the back of the legs to do before I start.
Recently been working on using Alclad Candy Red on a model of Iron Man, but that certainly would not be the look I'm going for here.
Probably going for Vallejo black primer, followed by a very dark metallic look - possibly a variant "Black Knight" sort of thing in metallic, not flat black. If I do, gold trim is a certainty, possibly with some small amount of metallic red to pinpoint some features, with the bright silver/chrome sword blade.
Just in case anyone was looking to buy more dreamforge stuff, I just saw yesterday that they have it on the Coolminiotnot.com website, somehow I just never saw that as an possibility. Just in case you want to buy zombicide and a leviathan at the same time to eliminate those nasty abominations .
Dreamforge is having a big Labor Day sale. It's worth checking out if you have any interest in their minis. The Eisenkern are $1.3 each if you get the 10-man kit. The 54mm Valkir is $12! For that price and a tub of bits, you could have your own army of Primarchs.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Dreamforge is having a big Labor Day sale. It's worth checking out if you have any interest in their minis. The Eisenkern are $1.3 each if you get the 10-man kit. The 54mm Valkir is $12! For that price and a tub of bits, you could have your own army of Primarchs.
Based on the 54mm Valkir I've mostly assembled, he's WAY oversized for even a Primarch. Which is too bad, otherwise he'd already be Alpharius.
Oh, absolutely. It's a fantastic model, and I'd love to see more of the line done in that bigger scale, they look like a joy to really go to town on with painting.
I'm glad the sale came along, this time, when I actually have some spare cash. I picked up lots of things that I've been wanting to add to the building/painting queue, although I wish I'd consulted what I already had, I'd have gotten another Loki/Thor if I'd realized that I had one more Keilerkopf than I thought I did. Still, more regular APCs don't hurt, especially when they're these particular ones.
Well, Dreamforge is having another huge sale. Lots of great kits at great prices, including WGF WW2 boxes. I hope this helps him realize the dream of plastic Shadokesh.
As for the yuge Valkir, scale creep is a hell of a drug.
I know people got on my case for doomsaying when he shifted warehouses, but these prices are so low I can't help but worry.
It's understandable, and unfortunately, beautiful models can only take it so far. It NEEDS, desperately, to have a game behind it, and opposition forces.
The Kaiser is the master of the galaxy by the will of the nondenominational deity, and by the might of his inexhaustible armies. Chief among them are the Einmarchs, Hand-crafted demigods standing exactly twice as tall as a tall man. Each leads a mighty army of Valkir, (exceedingly well) engineered super soldiers in finely-machined power armor, as well as the men and women of the Eisenkern Guard, their towering Leviathan warmachines, the planetary patrol Spesswehrmacht, and the conscripted Cosmosoviet Russians.
First among equals is the Kaiser's own son, Horace, the Beliked Wunderkind, master of the Jadensmiths Legion, known and tolerated throughout the Eisenkern Empire as the Warmeister. However, Horace's heart has turned against the man who named him Horace, spurring him to spread the poison of sedition to half of his brothers and hatch vile plots. Long story short, you can buy the same army twice as long as you have two different paints.
The Eisenkern Empire needs funding like never before.
That highlights the problem with chasing the big games, like 40K, is that while you might ride a bit on their tailcoats, you're still just a pale imitation of the original.
You're competing with the giant original game, complete with all its nostalgia. What's more, Mantic kind of has the cheap alternative market locked up even if Dreamforge's stuff looks way better.
What Dreamforge has is great, but even with rules behind it, it's still an imitator of something that's done and done, and done 20 times over already by others. It doesn't matter how good your rules play or how your game looks, you're not 40K.
It's like all those MMOs that tried to copy the success of WoW, the only ones still around are the ones that deliberately tried from the start be different or changed to be.
Vertrucio wrote: That highlights the problem with chasing the big games, like 40K, is that while you might ride a bit on their tailcoats, you're still just a pale imitation of the original.
You're competing with the giant original game, complete with all its nostalgia. What's more, Mantic kind of has the cheap alternative market locked up even if Dreamforge's stuff looks way better.
What Dreamforge has is great, but even with rules behind it, it's still an imitator of something that's done and done, and done 20 times over already by others. It doesn't matter how good your rules play or how your game looks, you're not 40K.
It's like all those MMOs that tried to copy the success of WoW, the only ones still around are the ones that deliberately tried from the start be different or changed to be.
This is the stance people seem to take every single time a new game comes out, theres lots of examples of systems that are running perfectly healthy. Sure they might not be at GW levels but I dont suspect any company really thinks they are going to be the next 40k. Warmachine is a prime example of a solid game that lots of people play. Theres a lot of people out there that would play a solid game (Iron Core) from dreamforge
Vertrucio wrote: That highlights the problem with chasing the big games, like 40K, is that while you might ride a bit on their tailcoats, you're still just a pale imitation of the original.
You're competing with the giant original game, complete with all its nostalgia. What's more, Mantic kind of has the cheap alternative market locked up even if Dreamforge's stuff looks way better.
What Dreamforge has is great, but even with rules behind it, it's still an imitator of something that's done and done, and done 20 times over already by others. It doesn't matter how good your rules play or how your game looks, you're not 40K.
It's like all those MMOs that tried to copy the success of WoW, the only ones still around are the ones that deliberately tried from the start be different or changed to be.
This is the stance people seem to take every single time a new game comes out, theres lots of examples of systems that are running perfectly healthy. Sure they might not be at GW levels but I dont suspect any company really thinks they are going to be the next 40k. Warmachine is a prime example of a solid game that lots of people play. Theres a lot of people out there that would play a solid game (Iron Core) from dreamforge
You've completely missed the point of what he was saying.
Warmachine took off precisely because it was so much unlike 40K. Same with Infinity or Malifaux or X-Wing. DFG set out to make cheap stand-ins for 40K and it didn't work out, and it never does.
Warmachine took off precisely because it was so much unlike 40K. Same with Infinity or Malifaux or X-Wing. DFG set out to make cheap stand-ins for 40K and it didn't work out, and it never does.
No, I really, really don't think that was Mark's intention at all. That they have been used as stand-ins by some people while we wait for a game and more factions does not equate to DFG's intentions in designing the range.
I am hoping Mark will show up again with an ace up his sleeve... he's obviously incredibly talented and I'd love to see him do something new! Would definitely back, and am happy to have backed for these (along with getting his stuff in resin before that).
Radio silence… yeah, I know. I have not been active for a very long time. Not that all of this has not been on my mind, I have been thinking endlessly about what to do and where to go next.
As many of you are aware, WGF US has shut its doors, I have taken over distribution of my kits and come to an agreement with China on how to sell the inventory that resided here in the US at the time WGF US was dissolved.
This left me with a very large question to ponder. What to do next, sell off the current stock and call it a day? Continue to work with China to produce new plastic? Find another manufacturer or process for future kits? Run more Kickstarters? All paths are big decisions with varied financial concerns.
At this point I feel the best option is to move towards another Kickstarter, what that looks like is still being worked out, but what is clear to me is that beyond this I need to clearly define a larger plan and bring in some help if possible to deal with other aspects that are currently ignored or nonexistent.
I am not quite ready to put any details out for public consumption as some pieces are still falling into place but as soon as this has been firmed up, I will be able to comment more on the direction and releases.
Best plastic kits on the market at the moment IMHO, hopefully whatever happens we can keep these on the market and hopefully finally get shadowkesh plastics
this news pleases me, im a bit on the fence about whether a KS for a second race, or perhaps having it be for the starter set for his game would be better. Im torn on more models that have to be stand ins
Technically the first KS was never completed right? There's no rules that I've seen at least. Last I remember it was handed off to someone else to write the rules and I haven't heard anything since. Now I don't do Facebook, so it could be all over that, but I did go look at his site a few weeks ago and didn't see anything new.
I hope he can still get it manufactured through WGF, I think it would become a farce if half his stuff is produced one place and the other half is made somewhere else. Would be really hard to make a base game starter set.
Hoping the flying stug is in this as well as the buildings he mentioned way back when.
I have been very worried about DFG and its future, the kits that we do have are so very well done, I would really hate to see it just peter out when there's so much more potential.
An opposing force and a set of rules, and this can actually get some momentum behind it, so I really hope that whatever path Mark takes, it gets us there.
really, really want that rules set out and 2nd faction. the models from DFG are excellent, i want to use them on the table for something other than proxy 40k superheavies.
Theophony wrote: Technically the first KS was never completed right? There's no rules that I've seen at least. Last I remember it was handed off to someone else to write the rules and I haven't heard anything since. Now I don't do Facebook, so it could be all over that, but I did go look at his site a few weeks ago and didn't see anything new.
Huh.
Iron-Core has been designed to be modular and infinitely expandable, so whether you’re a beer-n-nuts casual gamer or a micro-managing shell counter, your play style and time limitations can shape the game you decide to play.
The game system, Iron-Core has many of the “bones” of the core system rules completed but still needs polishing, illustration and play testing. All those who contribute will be invited to the development group, where your participation will directly affect the final product. Those who contribute at the “Armored Lance” or “All your bases are ours level” will also receive a free PDF of the completed and illustrated Iron-Core game system, which you the gaming community helped to create.
I'd totally forgotten about that.
Not that I'm all that interested but yeah, that was in the first KS.
I would definitely support another Kickstarter from Mark and DFG - I was really happy with the value and outcome (IMHO and for I backed) from the first one.
I think the Stug would be awesome. So would the small walker. But maybe (if he thinks it's doable with the knowledge gained from the previous KS) as stretch goals or something. Priority should, IMHO, be on a rule set and an antagonist force for the Eisenkern, fleshed out to an equal degree as the Eisenkern are at present.
If Iron Core and DFG are going to survive and grow, I think those things are an absolute must.
Glad to hear it is going forward the silence was worrying for a while, i would like to see the stug, but more importantly is to get alien army done and the rules.
The STuG and a rerelease of the Black Widow would be awesome but after that yeah, getting their aliens out to market would do them some good.
I don't get a sense that they're necessarily hurting in the business so much as things happened that have left Mark unsure of which direction to go. I would even suggest expanding his market until he figures that out would be a bad move.
Though I would looooove to see them come out with more goodies... whatever the flavor.
Here's the old Black Widow kit if people are unfamiliar
MLaw wrote: The STuG and a rerelease of the Black Widow would be awesome but after that yeah, getting their aliens out to market would do them some good.
I don't get a sense that they're necessarily hurting in the business so much as things happened that have left Mark unsure of which direction to go. I would even suggest expanding his market until he figures that out would be a bad move.
Though I would looooove to see them come out with more goodies... whatever the flavor.
Here's the old Black Widow kit if people are unfamiliar
Yeah, the Black Widow tank is one of those things I keep trying to find on ebay. Never could find one. Have you seen Mark's rendering of a new Black Widow? It looked pretty good with extra detail. If they are medium sized walkers (assuming the Leviathans are large) I'd buy three of them. Also a handful of those smallish walkers (Paladins?). All of those, and the hover Stug should be on the back burner until the rules and Shadowkesh are done though.
Speaking of the Shadowkesh, what do we want to see from them? At least one Leviathan equivalent, possibly with an alternative build. I want to see an infantry unit with an alternate build. I'd also like to see more fleshed-out units of those feral shadowkesh and handlers that came as kickstarter bonuses. Maybe some kind of hover drone or automated sentry gun? For some reason I feel like their ranged weapons should be energy based.
I don't think Mark ever "promised" the game as part of the KS. It was more along the lines of "this KS has been so successful that we're looking at launching a game".
None of the money from the KS ever went towards the game and I did my development work pro bono, which is how a re-transfer of ownership is nice and easy.
Those who know Horizon Wars will know I like generic games.
I'm looking now at disentangling the alpha rules for Iron Core from Mark's intellectual property and brain-storming a new name for the game (suggestions welcome) and hope to have it out for public consumption, criticism and complaint within the next month or so. However, it sits behind Ragnarok and Project Marmalade (which won't be called that forever, I promise) in the development queue, so a public beta is unlikely before 2018, and final publication not likely before 2019.
Unless everyone goes and buys Horizon Wars allowing me to give up the day-job and write games professionally full-time. Hint-hint.
I was about to ask "Huh?" but then I clicked on the link above and all was explained!
Iron Core returns… sort of…
If you’re new to this blog, you may not have heard of Iron Core. Dig back into the archives to find out more.
Essentially, after completing a spectacularly successful Kickstarter campaign, Mark Mondragon of Dreamforge Games approached me to develop a bespoke miniatures game to support his line of existing and forthcoming miniatures. However, I wrapped up work on that way back in 2015 and since then it’s been a big, fat wall of silence from Dreamforge.
But Mark has come through a sea of troubles and is back in the saddle taking the miniatures side of things forward. So I reached out to see about taking things on with Iron Core. And what we’ve agreed is pretty exciting for me, because Mark has given me Iron Core back. Sort of. The Iron Core universe is Mark’s. But he’s given me back the legal rights to the game that I developed for him. This means that I have a new game to start developing that has a perfect niche in my plans. I have Horizon Wars and its close associate, Ragnarok, to cover the large scale massed battle. I have Project Marmalade to cover the smallest scale skirmish-style conflict. And now I have a new game, as yet nameless, to sit comfortably in-between those for those who like their platoon+ tactical wargames. So this will be Precinct Omega’s answer to Warhammer 40,000 or Konflikt 47 or similar.
It also means that I can be much more open and explicit with you, my beloved followers, with what the game looks like and can even release an alpha-test version into the public domain to let you see it, first-hand!
And finally, it will mean that I can tailor the game so that it will not only accommodate Mark’s wonderful minis, but also modern and science fiction miniatures ranges from across the known universe in both 15mm and 28mm!
If that’s not exciting, I don’t know what is. However, that is only the first of several exciting announcements I have to make over the next few weeks, so brace yourselves for more incoming!!
Actually it appears access to the rules development process was baked into the pledge levels starting at $79:
Pledges at this level will also receive an invitation to the Iron-Core game development group.
Obviously I doubt anyone backed the campaign solely for those rules or were somehow enticed into spending more than they would have as a result; in fact I had forgotten they were explicitly promised until the topic just came up here and consider that campaign successfully concluded. Just an interesting footnote on the original campaign.
On news of a new KS I am quite intrigued as I've loved the products Mark creates. I'd buy three of the hover StuGs almost immediately, but I agree that a second faction is probably the better offering than expanding the Eisenkern (even as much as I really want more Eisenkern stuff). I look forward to hearing more.
There was development happening (even quoted above by Alpharius) but it didn't pan out at the time... cool to see new life in it and for a broader range, too!
precinctomega wrote: I don't think Mark ever "promised" the game as part of the KS. It was more along the lines of "this KS has been so successful that we're looking at launching a game".
None of the money from the KS ever went towards the game and I did my development work pro bono, which is how a re-transfer of ownership is nice and easy.
Those who know Horizon Wars will know I like generic games.
I'm looking now at disentangling the alpha rules for Iron Core from Mark's intellectual property and brain-storming a new name for the game (suggestions welcome) and hope to have it out for public consumption, criticism and complaint within the next month or so. However, it sits behind Ragnarok and Project Marmalade (which won't be called that forever, I promise) in the development queue, so a public beta is unlikely before 2018, and final publication not likely before 2019.
Unless everyone goes and buys Horizon Wars allowing me to give up the day-job and write games professionally full-time. Hint-hint.
R.
So would you release this completely separately, but maybe make a Iron Core sourcebook or something to use with the rules?
Alternatively, since Mark owns the IP could he not go with a developer that isn't currently mired behind 2 other projects?
EDIT: Nevermind, I see that Precinct is being given the green light so to speak.. past tense. Well, I guess it was a good idea. Not holding my breath on this one :/
So would you release this completely separately, but maybe make a Iron Core sourcebook or something to use with the rules?
Maybe. I'm still disentangling the product, as I said. My other games tend to build mechanics for designing your own units right into the game. But I'm contemplating making this one more open source, encouraging manufacturers and others to publish "army books" to enable you to play the game with whatever range you fancy/already own.
Still early days, though, like I say. Rather than clog up Mark's thread with my thoughts, I'll post something relevant in the Dakka Discussions forum at some point in the near future.
As far as I know, there hasn't been any news at all. It's a shame really. 6 years ago I was so hopeful that this would be a break-out success. I wish we'd hear some news on all this.
The StuG looked to be a great model, too. With 8th coming it might be a motivator to finally put together some of my infantry. The decline of 40k really had me painting much more fantasy and historical stuff for the last few years.
Oh, and for anyone unaware, Dreamforge has a bloody good sale up right now on their webpage for Memorial Day until June 3rd.
https://dreamforge-games.com/
If it wasn't for international postage costs, I'd be all over it myself, but for those of you in the US, there's some amazing deals there for some sweet counts-as IG/Scion models and Knights. Not sure why it's not posted here yet.
I wish Marc could join forces with Warlordgames. It would solve his distribution problem and possibly make his iron core Germans into a human faction for Gates of Antares.
Theophony wrote: I wish Marc could join forces with Warlordgames. It would solve his distribution problem and possibly make his iron core Germans into a human faction for Gates of Antares.
No offense, but anything but that! Warlord is a young GW with with model quality from 20 years ago imho. There are enough European warehousing businesses that will handle EU ditribution for you for a price that's not your soul... If they really need a UK based distribution partner, talk to Rich from Wayland Games...
Theophony wrote: I wish Marc could join forces with Warlordgames. It would solve his distribution problem and possibly make his iron core Germans into a human faction for Gates of Antares.
No offense, but anything but that! Warlord is a young GW with with model quality from 20 years ago imho. There are enough European warehousing businesses that will handle EU ditribution for you for a price that's not your soul... If they really need a UK based distribution partner, talk to Rich from Wayland Games...
I think he had already gone through Wayland games, and like most of the distributors, they cleared him out.
As for warlord, they have been putting out some nice models (gates of Antares), and the bolt action system seems fun. They also have the distribution network, old GW was good up until their last CEO.
I'd love to see Marc get his own game out on his own, but that hasn't been happening.
Just happened to catch this out of the corner of my eye, went and picked up a few more boxes of American & German 28 mm infantry - I really prefer them over Warlord's offerings.
Also grabbed a box of the Eisenkern, tempted to make them counts-as Primaris, even though from comparisons they look like they're a bit smaller than even space marines.
I also happened to notice they have a 54 mm Assault Trooper that'd probably make a decent stand-in for Roboute, and the 15mm scale Leviathan would probably make a great (and better-looking IMHO) replacement for the new Primaris dreadnought.
Just wish the APC had been on sale - I picked one up on Black Friday last year and I'd like to get two more to stand in for Chimeras or Tauroxes.
Anyone have any idea what happened to the Panzerjagers? Went looking for a box or two, and they don't seem to be up on the website anymore. I love the Eisenkern models, and I want to keep expanding my Guard army with them.
All of these sales usually means bad news for a company.....
Yeah, I'm holding on with bated breath. I love DreamForge and I have been a customer of theirs for 16 years now. The designs for the Leviathans are superb. Three years ago I wouldn't have been surprised to see a smaller Mech, the return of the Black Widow walking tank, and the APC by now. Now it looks like the Shadowkesh are just a pipe dream. Would anyone else drop $200 in a heartbeat if it meant another kickstarter was successful and more stuff came out?
I think the divorce with Wargames Factory really hurt. Now in addition to design and manufacturing Mark is doing orders and fulfilment. A lot for what's basically a one man shop.
The divorce with Precinct Omega sets back any hope of a game too...
All of these sales usually means bad news for a company.....
Yeah, I'm holding on with bated breath. I love DreamForge and I have been a customer of theirs for 16 years now. The designs for the Leviathans are superb. Three years ago I wouldn't have been surprised to see a smaller Mech, the return of the Black Widow walking tank, and the APC by now. Now it looks like the Shadowkesh are just a pipe dream. Would anyone else drop $200 in a heartbeat if it meant another kickstarter was successful and more stuff came out?
Unfortunately, not I. It seems like way too much of a risk at this point.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: I think the divorce with Wargames Factory really hurt. Now in addition to design and manufacturing Mark is doing orders and fulfilment. A lot for what's basically a one man shop.
The divorce with Precinct Omega sets back any hope of a game too...
So with the highlighted text, it seems what you're saying is...
Joking aside, I do think you're correct that WGF's deal with Warlord wherein the former pulled up sticks and left really put Mark in a lurch. It's a shame because while they're fantastic models, between KickStarters and later purchases any further Eisenkern for me is definitely crossing into the "Stuff for the Stuff God" realm (Things for the Thing Throne!). I'd still probably throw money at the hover StuG, not sure about Shadokesh; I'd like another alien race in the market, but that's a lot more resources to carry off.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: I think the divorce with Wargames Factory really hurt. Now in addition to design and manufacturing Mark is doing orders and fulfilment. A lot for what's basically a one man shop.
The divorce with Precinct Omega sets back any hope of a game too...
And without having a dedicated game, the odd scale of the models can't help sales any. They're lovely models, but I've never bought more after the initial metal squad because I just don't have any use for them.
Likewise, I kept holding off buying a Leviathan due to them being just a bit too big for a Knight and a bit too small for a Titan.
I am currently using my Leviathan as a Knight Porphyrion. They are almost exactly the same size, and with the nova cannon arms they look like they have the same weapons too.
The Shadowkesh models that came with the kickstarter I am using as Dark Eldar HQ bodyguards.
This is the problem with chasing the big game. It only works if that game is in a slump, and it worked for a while since they were able to get plastic production going, but not so much if you need to sell enough to recoup that cost.
I'm not sure people these days are up for trying a new game that's mass battle and similar to 40k, without just playing 40k.
Supposedly the game was never supposed to be mass battle. It was supposed to be (for the average game) something like One leviathan and a few infantry squads, or a tank, APC, and a few infantry squads.
It was never meant to be anything more than, at most, a couple vehicles and 30 infantry.
I remember when the Paladin lite Mech got previewed. I would have loved to have my army be four of those and some heavy infantry support.
I did a little digging and I found this. I would have loved for this model to be brought back into production. 7 years and still no word is a downer. Assuming it would be about 20% larger than a Defiler, it looks like it could be made on 4 sprues. 1 repeated four times for the legs (perhaps a couple weapons if room), a couple spues for the main turret, and one for the waist and weapons.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: I think the divorce with Wargames Factory really hurt. Now in addition to design and manufacturing Mark is doing orders and fulfilment. A lot for what's basically a one man shop.
The divorce with Precinct Omega sets back any hope of a game too...
I wasn't even aware that Mark was looking to outsource his ruleset. But yeah, I think DFG has a clouded future.
OTOH, the FlugStuG would probably make for a really great alt to the GW nuMarines Grav Tank.
I picked up a squad of Valkir Assault Troopers and very pleased with them. Can't emphasise how well designed or good they look. Little bling, or BS details, just good aesthetics all the way. I'm regretting the 40 or so GW marines I've built, had these Valkir guys been available at the time, I would emptied my wallet on them. I hope Dreamforge release more similar figures in the future.
My only criticism with the Valkir is lack of diversity of parts i.e. there is only 1 torso type, 3 head types, etc. Which isn't an issue for me personally, but if you're used to getting spoiled with 5-10 variants of parts from GW, this is something to be aware of.
thegreatchimp wrote: I picked up a squad of Valkir Assault Troopers and very pleased with them. Can't emphasise how well designed or good they look. Little bling, or BS details, just good aesthetics all the way. I'm regretting the 40 or so GW marines I've built, had these Valkir guys been available at the time, I would emptied my wallet on them. I hope Dreamforge release more similar figures in the future.
My only criticism with the Valkir is lack of diversity of parts i.e. there is only 1 torso type, 3 head types, etc. Which isn't an issue for me personally, but if you're used to getting spoiled with 5-10 variants of parts from GW, this is something to be aware of.
As someone going by yorknecromancer shows, there's an ample number of 3rd party options for heads (picture hosted on BoLS):
Spoiler:
I particularly like how well the chunky GW weapons still (mostly) fit in. Fairly good Soroitas conversion IMO, though I'd still prefer a GW kit for them.
I got quite a bit of dreamforge stuff, have pretty much replaced all of my guard with them. Good quality and good price point. It's a bit sad that all of the discount sellers are out of practically everything (except for some leviathan stuff). Wanted to get more of the assault troops, but it's hard to justify $26 w/ shipping for 5 models. Wanted to make a black templar force with them. Here's to hoping something becomes of this line and it doesn't just fade away.
NightReaver wrote: I got quite a bit of dreamforge stuff, have pretty much replaced all of my guard with them. Good quality and good price point. It's a bit sad that all of the discount sellers are out of practically everything (except for some leviathan stuff). Wanted to get more of the assault troops, but it's hard to justify $26 w/ shipping for 5 models. Wanted to make a black templar force with them. Here's to hoping something becomes of this line and it doesn't just fade away.
They run sales all the time.. Often cheaper than most discount sites. I really don't understand how you're going to build a BT army out of 5 models (unless they are Leviathans..). Even still.. Ebay has tons of their stuff.
RE That Leviathan conversion.. That's what I want to do with mine.. is there a guide on how that person did it? As fantastic as the 28mm Leviathan is, the proportions of the head and weapons are largely why my kit is just sitting there at the moment.
Eh, not the whole army, just more for flavor. Last couple of discounts didn't really have them marked down (unless I wasn't looking correctly), and ebay is even more pricey than the main store.
RE That Leviathan conversion.. That's what I want to do with mine.. is there a guide on how that person did it? As fantastic as the 28mm Leviathan is, the proportions of the head and weapons are largely why my kit is just sitting there at the moment.
That was me! I may have a few pics up in my own modelling blog, but most of it was from the Crusader kit. I chopped the front off the gun arm, mounted the Crusader's shield to the front, and put the vulcan megabolters from the stormbolter kit into two of the housings for the same gun, sandwiched together.
The round piece around the Knight head and cowl is actually a heavily cut up and sanded piece of the Leviathan's thigh armor, with magnets to hold the head in. The power pack is the optional Leviathan backpack kit, and and I glued a Knight Aquila to the top.
I'v been wanting to whip up a more elegant adapter piece in CAD that would fit the Leviathan and the Knight head pieces more neatly and blend the aesthetics better, but I haven't yet.
The Leviathan kit is stellar though, everything fit very neatly together, the poseability is incredible, and overall from a technical standpoint it's really solid.
Thanks for the heads up on the sale. I grabbed a couple of the Stormtrooper Accessory packs for cheap. Shipping is a bit steep, but I can live with it.
Wow, shipping a leviathan to the UK is significantly more expensive than the leviathan itself. I'm strongly regretting not buying one when wayland had a flash sale and were selling the 28mm ones for about £30
Yep, you need to buy from 3rd party sellers in Europe or the postage cost is insane. Otherwise the kits are impresive. I bought a Val'kyr box 20 troopers so I could have 20 helmets for my stormcast (Plus the 20 normal ones for the proper Valkir) and they are super-b models.
A while back I made a Dreadknight that used the Torso of a 15mm Leviathan with Dreadknight arms and legs with the Terminator mounted in the spot where the Leviathan's head goes. Looks really good, no more baby carrier.
I'd like to do that again, but with the Psycannon and Incinerator made into giant pistols being duel-wielded by the Dreadknight suit.
Let’s start this by having a rather upfront look at the miniatures industry, the customer base and expectations.
My rather unique perspective:
I have the benefit of looking at this not only from my personal company (A crumb gathering niche within a niche) but also for watching WGF, who I think most would agree had a solid seat at the mid-tier table, with a rather large product offering spanning quite a few interests.
I have worked, not only the creative side designing miniatures, but in my previous life as a buyer/planner, which gives me some ability to understand product reorder points and the financial aspect of just in time ordering, supply chain logistics and the implementation of contracts. Add to this, experience with the manufacturing aspect, working closely with WGF and even producing my own resin releases… I understand soft and hard tool molds, direction of pull and release draft angles. Well at least enough to be dangerous: P The only reason I went over this is to illustrate although I am a fresh new business man, and likely NOT a very good one, I do possess a wide skill base that assists me every day.
The Industry:
The industry, is a niche industry, with most companies either finding their niche within a niche market or attempting to gather the crumbs off the table form some of the larger players in the industry. Volume wise, its not a great industry for those not sitting in the top positions within their niche.
It has been said, you are only as good as your last release and only as memorable as your next tease. I find this to be a true if not slightly jaded view. The ‘new shinny’ is what drives this market from a sales standpoint. You need to remain in the publics eye as there is always a new ‘something’ from some other company that will be released just around the corner.
This is where plastic is king and curse all at the same time. Plastic is a fantastic medium for the end user, light durable, infinitely modifiable and highly desirable. There is no doubt that for a miniature line a plastic release adds desirability and a certain legitimacy that those dealing in lesser materials, metal and resin have a hard time competing with….
But why Mark, why would that be a curse when plastic is King, you ask.
(THE LONG ANSWER)
Most would say the upfront costs, which is the correct answer but only part of the answer, the other part is time to market with plastic. Companies that are in plastic need to be looking about 18 months in advance to have any form of steady release schedule. (Remember the new shiny is what matters) Once again, I know that sounds jaded, but it is not… Your supply chain can back you up and help you drive sales if you have a proven history of delivery.
You need to have the capitol to pay upfront for 6 or so releases to be worked on at any one time. Let’s say they are frugal with their kits and two molds for each kit will be required. That would be 12 Molds in the works, 50% down for a total of $60,000 investment tied up for a minimum of 6-12 moths -AND- They need to have available enough capitol to finalize payment on two of those kits, their production run, box/packaging and shipping to their distribution center. So, let’s say you plan an average release to have enough stock to get you through a quarter. 3000 is a fairly good number for the first quarter release from a smaller manufacturer without a huge marketing budget to drive sales. i.e. me or WGF. That would be about $55,000 to get two releases to your dock, paying off four molds and the production run for two kits @ 3000ea volume.
Total outlay of capitol required, around $115,000 with another $55,000 needed in another month or two for the next two releases… and this cycle goes on and on as long as you keep the plastic flowing.
Looking at plastic production from a single project or set of molds is only half the answer… Heaven forbid you have a slow release in there that never grabs like it should. If you are not sitting on $100,000 of ‘problem solving extra cash’, you then do not have the capitol for the next releases and the entire production aspect gets thrown out of whack. Your customers are upset, your supply chain is upset, and the money spent on marketing to tease the next release is pretty much cash in a dumpster fire.
The moral to this story, if you are looking to run a plastic kit line and want to continue doing so, plan 18 months in advance, have 6 kits ready to go to the mold maker from your end at any one time and be sitting on about $250.000 in a cash reserve that is not required for other aspects of your business or its overhead.
A smarter move would be choosing a format that is kinder on the mold count and margin returned for each kit. KD and Mallifaux are a couple of examples, (Hero models) a single figure sells for nearly as much as a boxed set and requires 1/10 the mold space. Unfortunately, this is not the format that DFG embarked on and I am not sure it is one I would have chosen even knowing what I know now, primarily because the character model scheme is just not that appealing to me…. Let’s just say I would need to give it some thought.
So, I think we have established that ‘properly’ running a plastic miniatures business is expensive….
So you had a flop:
Let’s talk about the inevitable soft release. So, you had a flop… bound to happen and you have a release coming shortly behind to help punch back up those numbers. You need to get it out of your head that that slow release will ever pay for its self. The first quarter is the make or break for that kit, flub up the release or have shipping issues and miss the restock or short your initial release, you WILL NOT be getting those sales back, they are gone, your customers and supply chain have moved on to the next release. Sure, they will continue to sell in some small manner, but you missed the boat and the return on investment will likely never come. You can chalk the $15-20K loss up to a learning experience and move on…. Assuming you still have the capitol to do so.
After the first quarter, the product sales will decrease each end every quarter until you hit the products base line. Historicals burn the slowest and lowest but they are steady. Sci-fi is one of the better formats for that initial bump. Fantasy? Not sure…. I do not have any insider information on that. If you have a strong line with distinctive style such as KD, I think you would be fine but that is an uneducated guess on my part.
So, we all are on the same page? Miniatures are expensive, risky, and from an artists stand point a hell of a lot of fun, from a businessman’s standpoint, perhaps not the best investment without an eye for the long game and certainly not without a rather large bank account doing nothing but gathering interest.
The customer base:
What a nefarious gathering. Truly, a hive of scum and villainy.
Creative, imaginative, supportive, geeks, nerds, artist, and general loons….. I could not be prouder of all of you!
Seriously though a great community and one that I am proud to be a part of. I think that they key to my success has always been the relationship with my customer base. I can honestly say I miss being a part of that as much or more than I enjoy the creative sculpting aspects.
As was stated in the beginning of this long rambling thread, the shiny new thing drives the business, that is not to say that quality and the feeling of a fair exchange price vs return is not important, because it is. We all need to feel like we received value from our purchase. If any one aspect fails, quality, value, time to market. You as a manufacturer will feel the effects, not just in that sale but in future transactions.
The supply chain is a customer as well. If you are part of the supply chain, you had better be firing up your customer base. The supply chain directly reacts to demand, they my or may not like your product but if it sells, they will bump the next order and if it is flat, they will pull back. For you the customer/end user its about scratching that creative itch with something cool. For the retailers and wholesalers (who are likely geeks like the rest of us) its still about stock movement and fast returns on investment.
Remember your first few months of any release will make or break that release. This all comes back to time to market… Loose that race and you have lost sales, it is an extremely important aspect that every manufacture frets about and that many of us never think about as we wander store shelves or click through retailer’s websites.
Expectations:
IT’S A TRAP!
Also a fun drinking game for this post.
Wipe the sleep from your eyes, this next part is important and although my ramblings may have put you into a stupor, this is meat and potatoes time!
If you have been on this side of the table for any length of time, you will know the manufactures rarely meet deadlines.
This is not just a ‘China thing’.
Every vendor I have worked with on the manufacturing end comes in late.
PERIOD, NO EXCEPTIONS.
So how do you manage expectations? How can you guesstimate when something will arrive once the order has been placed? Honest answer, you can’t the delay will range from reasonable, two weeks to mind numbing 1+ years. Best advice is not to even tease a release until it is in your warehouse… let it simmer for a couple of weeks and then release.
The problem for me is that I truly enjoy bringing all of you in on the creative process. I am likely shooting myself in the foot by doing so, but some of the feedback ends in changes or insights that effect the final product. This (for me) is a difficult decision. Do I open the doors and show all while destroying the OOOOOH NEW SHINY! Or prey that the ends justify the means. I still do not have an answer for this problem, I just know that I prefer active participation.
I am not sure how the supply chain felt about that, but I imagine they would prefer an unveiling and big initial hype just before release.
Quality:
Based on your past purchases, we know WGF delivered quality, late, but quality. This in its own way is a trap. I have no doubt that Wai Kee (WGF) knows the value of quality and what that means for retention. He is a brilliant engineer and can be a perfectionist when his attention is fully on a project. Should my next release not rise to the same level, there will be comparisons and expectations will be met or not. I will never knowingly produce crap but not every manufacturer is able to meet that standard to the same level.
Price:
I have always priced with an eye to value for money spent. I tried to keep the kits slightly below some of the ‘big boys’ so that my customers could view them as a quality alternative that may be slightly more reasonable. This is also a trap. Slaving your price structure to a larger more capable manufacturer means that you may be running at a loss if all things do not go as planned. The pull back from distribution and rising costs to ship outside the US have made it impossible to look at new releases with the same pricing structure, certainly not while staying within distribution.
Kit contents:
When we started this path together, WGF was manufacturing, shipping in full container load to their warehouse and pushing those product up the supply chain that had been in existence for some time. The discount they received by shipping full container loads is substantial, the cost to manufacture, insignificant by comparisons to what a customer needs to pay. Having these large multi sprue kits was not a real concern aside from their volume in the container. When I took over distribution, it became very clear that the kit contents (sheer size) and number of shots per kit would indeed be an issue and A TRAP! How do you pull back from that or cut a new course once expectations have been set?
Means of production:
As I stated very early in all this, plastic is king, but now that you see the monetary requirements, the delays in time to market, the lost revenue associated with these delays…. Where do you go with all of that? How as a manufacture can you justify any move towards plastic? And if the expectation is that all my releases are to be plastic, well….. IT”S A TRAP!
I will lay out a single example here to help clarify the financial issues with plastic kits. You ready for this? Where ell’s will a manufacturer open his books with a real-world example of pricing? (queue cheesy used car salesman commercial music)
One of my best-selling kits, the 20-man Stormtrooper set.
20-man stormtrooper set, cost to manufacture $5.00, not bad, not great but folks in China got to eat too.
Cost to deliver $3.00 (shipping and initial warehousing, would be substantially less if I could fill containers, but the sales volume does not allow for that)
Total cost of kit delivered $8.00
Retail $44.00
Buy at $8.00 sell at $44.00?! Where do I sign up, right? Hang on folks, it’s a bumpy ride.
What does it take to run a miniature line and keep the doors open? It’s simple really, you need to have a 4-5 X mark-up from the manufacturing costs MINIMUM (kit delivered to warehouse) returning to you on most sales. It may seem crazy high to require 4-5X the cost but when you break it down it becomes clear. Now granted this is simplistic but a good estimate. If you can get it 6X cost delivered is much better, as it allows for some breathing room that may be desperately needed.
1X For cost to re order the kit you just sold
1-1.5X For the associated overhead (Warehousing, utilities Labor) Assuming that you turn the product over every 2-3 months, if it goes longer, it will eat further into the profit margin.
1X Tax…. No way around the tax man.
1X Back into business to fund that next sweet release.
.5-1X Personal profit, a man must eat after all….
$8.00 X 5 =$40.00 all is good! Well, sort of… If I sell direct only, at full MSRP, then I have met my margin. If I sell into distribution, I net $16.00-$17.60 per kit, which works ONLY if your turnover is very fast and you are able to restock with a container load of product.
I tend(ed) to sell 60/40 split 40% direct (at less than retail many times) and 60% into distribution with a 6 to 12-month turnover (sell through last shipment) depending on the SKU.
What does all this mean? It means that there is simply no way to sell into distribution without jacking the kit price so high that it would cripple sales. Retail for a 20-man set would need to be $80-$85 retail for this kit to make sense from a business perspective. If all of you are confident that and $85 retail is reasonable, and you would snatch them up…. Please say so, but I think I know the answer to that question already.
So, Wholesale is clearly not an option based on the financial realities, but wholesale is consistent. They move product every month like clockwork down to the retailers, they pay the operating expenses by being reliable in a way that my customers cannot be, through no fault of their own. Wholesalers are pushing out to multiple retailers and pushing to a much larger and willing base.
All of the expectations listed above have been on my mind from the first day I took over, reflecting, trying various things, contemplating every month on the direction of the company and how or IF it should move forward. Seriously, I LOVE this stuff, but every month I examine if there is a future or not.
All doom and gloom, right? May as well just call it a day?
Nope, not yet. There are several paths forward, but they are untested, and the results may or may not net the desired result. I have started the process by removing myself from distribution and reopening a dialog with my customers. I will lay out a few options as I see them and see if any of you have input that might assist in steering the boat. Not to worry, this is not ‘on you’ DFG will move forward in perhaps some rather unconventional ways that may break some of the ‘expectations’ but I am more than happy to plot the course and see where it leads.
NEXT UP WHERE TO GO
I will be going over what I have planned so far and possible ways to deal with production and releases.
Interesting read, a lot of what he says is basic to any manufacturing/retailing business. I hope he's explaining it for our benefit and that he didn't learn it the hard way.
Going back to the problem he describes, there are ways to sell old wine in new bottles, a boxed starter set for example or an army deal or an upgrade kit.
I wonder what happened to the panzerjagers/black widows. I bought some initially, but planned to buy more when funds allowed, and by that time they had disappeared from the website.
There were three blog posts from Mark all on the same day, and while Alpharius quoted the most interesting one, there was this bit buried in one of the others:
I finalize a few files for production (StuG tank, Shadokesh and Ferals) ...
So, confirmation that the StuG and something Shadokesh is complete and ready to go to production?
I’d love to see him flesh out the shadowkesh and produce a mech game with the crusaders vs whatever the shadowkesh may have available and fill in with some infantry but have the bulk of the game be between giant robots vs a shadowkesh kaiju type beings.
Loved everything about these posts - can't wait to read more and hear what he is thinking about as options for the future, as he hinted at here! But just seeing him being open again is so awesome
I wish the absolute best for him. Loved his kits and while I think he got a bit too overambitious with stretch goals, he made some absolutely fantastic kits. I thought his eisenkarn bits kit was awesome and I've been using it for guardsmen for years to provide computers, binocs, pistols, crates, and other bits and bobs.
Here's hoping he does well, I'd love to see those space Slavs he previewed a ways back. Either way I expect he'll be using more resin and metal in the future. I doubt any company could continue to release the absolutely unreal sets like his Titans were.
Prediction: 3D printing and small short run molds not made of metal.
Pretty sure everyone's looking at the latest advances in printing. Got my eyes opened about that.
Tying your business to the failure of another popular game is problematic. Being a good quality knock off only works if there isn't an amazing official product.
License the Maelstrom's Edge rules or make something of a similar scale. Get a game out that's not directly competing with the 800 pound gorilla.
Yeah, but making models that can be used in their own game but also as 40K proxies is probably not a bad way to go. I got some Eisenkern to use as Imperial Guard models, and some of the 15mm leviathans to proxy as Leman Russ tanks.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also should point out, I guess, that they have a sale going on right now. $13 for 30 28mm WW2 figures (or $10 for 90 15mm) is a good way to start playing Bolt Action pretty cheap.
Tannhauser42 wrote: There were three blog posts from Mark all on the same day, and while Alpharius quoted the most interesting one, there was this bit buried in one of the others:
I finalize a few files for production (StuG tank, Shadokesh and Ferals) ...
So, confirmation that the StuG and something Shadokesh is complete and ready to go to production?
Unless I am mistaken, the blog post in question mentioned that was done back in 2017 and he did not find a new partner and now they are effectively canned.
BrookM wrote: The latest sale had free worldwide shipping at least, so there's that.
I missed that - the international shipping (which is not Mark's fault) is the only thing that has stopped me spending a tidy sum on more kits from him over the last... however many sales he's had in the last couple of years. Maybe a direct mail list would help if he gets back into it.
Looks like Dreamforge is moving ahead with new models.
Due to costs and manufacturing issues, they are reverting back to resin for their models. Good news is that DF is close to release on the Hover Stug, the Paladin walker, and Shadowkesh. After that, another human faction.
cuda1179 wrote: Looks like Dreamforge is moving ahead with new models.
Due to costs and manufacturing issues, they are reverting back to resin for their models. Good news is that DF is close to release on the Hover Stug, the Paladin walker, and Shadowkesh. After that, another human faction.
Where did you see that? The website has nothing under news about anything and I haven’t received an email update from the old kickstarters.
Took me forever to find it again though, it's not on the Dream Forge FB page, but on the fan group.
Much as I love plastic, Resin in the last few years has gotten really good. The Dystopian Wars stuff I got was incredible and very tough. It's interesting that both Dream Forge and
When we last lest off on this rather rambling discussion, we had addressed the issues regarding manufacturing plastic miniatures, the costs involved and some of the challenges a small manufacturer faces, regarding time to market, the supply chain, the customer base and profit margins.
This is part 4: Where to go from here.
This is the last in that series of rather frank discussions. This conversation will be about the direction DreamForge will take and how I would like to handle new releases and how to keep the train rolling as much as possible while limiting delays as much as possible.
Where have I been since my last post? Working on prints, testing a few theories about mold manufacturing with an eye to efficiency, repeatability and quality.
Where to go from here…. Well, that is a rather large question with some fairly complicated moving parts. I love doing what I am doing but at the end of the day, this is a business and all paths forward must be manageable, efficient and profitable. With the other conversations behind us I can address my path forward.
1) Production will be moved in house, for cost, quality control and to allow for ease of movement from one product to the next. Should one flop, the investment will be minimal, and the next release more easily moved into, as I will be controlling the manufacturing aspects and it facilitates a far more inventory on hand friendly option. Manufacturing just what you need when you need it keeps ‘dead stock’ issues to a minimum. The obvious down side is that this does impact my design time as I am elbow deep in the manufacturing process.
I will be releasing product in waves, making enough for the anticipated first product push and not returning to that product until there is a production slot open to deal with the extra run. This may cause issues where the supply does not meet the demand, but it is a necessary evil. Every kit setting on a shelf, is money tied up, money that could and should be used for the next release.
2) New kits and re-issues of older kits will be in resin, the costs to tool and run the product are far more manageable and I went over in the previous paragraphs, it allows me far more financial freedom and the ability to tailor my production and keep a more fluid release schedule on hand. Having a 500 unit minimum and a 4-6 month lead on restocks simply does not work for a company my size.
3) The plastic kits are limited to stock on hand, if you want them, you might want to pick them up while they are available, once they are gone, they are gone. They will be replaced by the resin versions in the future. The infantry will not be discounted as the supply is very limited. Any kit in stock that has too much excess inventory will see some great sales until the stock levels reach a minimal level.
I know some of you may not have had stellar results from resin kits, I will do my best to control quality and have been experimenting with a few techniques to minimize the gate and vent size down to 1/16” (about 1mm) to help get rid of the issues with massive cleanup and destroyed details due to overly large pour gates. This process does have some drawbacks. The resin I sue cannot be fast setting, which means a mold may not see more than two casts per day. To address this issue, I have worked out a means to make many copies of the same molds, quickly and efficiently. There is simply no way to match the production speed of injected plastic but considering its tooling costs and the lead time needed, it is not an option within this niche market where the ‘new shiny’, it what sells. I much prefer being able to continually release great products than hope a kit has staying power to pay for the initial investment.
Would I ever consider a plastic release? Yes, given the right kit, it is still a better means of production. Having the experience, I have gained so far, I have a good feel of what will and what will not survive a long release, the only questions is whether the community will have moved on to the next game/product in the meantime.
So, now you know the direction… What’s next?
Hover StuG!
I will be doing a bit more mold testing and refining of process and then the initial run of the StuG can begin. The initial run will be 200-300 kits
Shadokesh!
Ferals and troopers, really cool kits, fun as hell to model these, but without a game or other driving force to push sales and no obvious ‘counts as’ the sales on these may be a little soft. I will keep my initial run fairly small while keeping an eye on my customers reactions.
Panzerjager!
These have been OOS for some time and will be the first re-release, followed closely by other infantry lines. The re-releases will be roughly in the same format, separate arms and chests, etc, but I may join up some components that were split to ease manufacturing, assembly and part count issues.
After that? The Protectorate! Honestly not doing these in plastic is a blessing and a curse. I know they would sell with enough initial volume but the freedom of not needing to respect the ‘direction of pull’ of a hard too means I can start to really flex some modeling muscle and make them as cool as possible.
And after that? Buildings, terrain, other vehicles, races, etc.…..
My intent is to get far more interactive with the community regarding those future releases, asking for feedback and taking critiques to make every kit the best I can. The re-releases, StuG and Shadokesh are basically done from the modeling aspect, so, they are what they are…. But I look forward to flexing the old grey matter with all of you for the future lines. Its going to be fun, its going to be cool and I hope to see many of you helping to shape the products you want!
Slightly disappointed in the switch to resin, but I do understand why it has to be done if DFG is ever to release new product. Also concerned about price changes, though chances are at least one hoverstug will be acquired to see how the resin turns out if nothing else.
JoeRugby wrote: I hope this Doesn’t mean that the existing plastic kits will be replaced by resin ones, but I’m reading the above and that’s what it sounds like :(
Well he won't produce any more of those plastic kits, that's for sure.
I hope he'll consider running Kickstarters if people are interested in the existing plastics. That way he can guarantee enough orders to make it be profitable.
As much as I prefer plastic I understand the hurdles Mark faced / faces and I'll be happy to get these new models in resin. The man is talented and has great ideas that I want to see on my table ! (I can see those Shadokesh Ferals terrorizing my Core Space and Zombicide: Invader games ... and so much more).
@ bbb ... Good idea to use KS for plastic production runs.
The Shadokesh are sweet, but if they're going to be made in resin I wonder if they could have more texture on the skin. Just not sure if these will look completely smooth, and thus be hard to paint for most people?
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I wonder what happened to the panzerjagers/black widows. I bought some initially, but planned to buy more when funds allowed, and by that time they had disappeared from the website.
FYI - I asked through the DFG website back in April about the Panzerjager kit getting any restock and got this back:
Dreamforge Games wrote:
No restock on that kit for a while, we will likely be re-releasing this as a resin kit. To my knowledge there are no retailers with that kit in stock.
I'll probably pass on the Shadokesh, mainly because these particular models, which were originally intended to be cast in polystyrene, have a lot of fine details (the claws, the handle of the halberd weapon) that look like they'll be too delicate and brittle in resin for me.
That said, I think Mark made the smart, pragmatic choice for his business, and keeping Dreamforge financially viable naturally takes precedence.
I hope he'll consider running Kickstarters if people are interested in the existing plastics. That way he can guarantee enough orders to make it be profitable.
Don’t know how feasible that would be for Mark but a final run Kickstarter or Mark starter(on his site not KS) would be awesome.
I really like those. They're just the right amount of alien/disturbing with some design cues taken from designs I like (Aliens and Pitch Black) without crossing over into the just plain chthulu cranked up to 11 oddity factor. Are those similar to what was last released from the kickstarter?
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I wonder what happened to the panzerjagers/black widows. I bought some initially, but planned to buy more when funds allowed, and by that time they had disappeared from the website.
FYI - I asked through the DFG website back in April about the Panzerjager kit getting any restock and got this back:
Dreamforge Games wrote:
No restock on that kit for a while, we will likely be re-releasing this as a resin kit. To my knowledge there are no retailers with that kit in stock.
All the best,
Mark
Thanks for asking. What a bummer, though. I've already assembled most of them, so now I'll have to consider very carefully for which conversions I use the rest.
I'm hoping for an updated version of the Black Widow walking tank. That thing fits the feel of Iron Core so much. Not to mention it's a hell of a kit in it's own right.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, can someone email GW and show them how the Repulsor should have looked?
I'm aware of the wordplay hence my question. I don't expect you to know it but I took German in high school and random things like that are the only use I've gotten out of it for decades. I like the term.
I'm totally planning armchair general here, but...
Imagine a world in which instead of spending resources tooling 21(!) plastic kits for leviathans in two scales Dreamforge had instead released the dizzying array of leviathan weapon options in resin, and then put out 1-2 infantry kits and a vehicle kit for the Shadowkesh 2-3 years ago....
Instead we live in a world where you can get right and left hand weapon options in HIPS for that leviathon that you need ONE of in a 28mm army, but the infantry opposition force for the Eisenkern will be in resin.
I know hindsight is 20/20, but surely someone must have paused at sometime and asked "is it worth tooling a left hand claw for a 28mm leviathon in plastic?"
Put in a (perhaps irresponsibly) big order at the webstore as those infantry kits are some of the finest kits ever put into production imo. Mark really has quite the talent for multipart plastics, although I realise HIPS was not a good fit for a one-man operation. Still, I look forward to seeing the Shadowkesh and Protectorate take form. Companies like Anvil have shown that multi-part resin can be very viable.
Im glad to hear news on the panzerjaegers, Im curious whether or not re-releasing the existing kits in resin will reduce or increase the cost. Not that they need to be reduced at all, just a thought I had.
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Im glad to hear news on the panzerjaegers, Im curious whether or not re-releasing the existing kits in resin will reduce or increase the cost. Not that they need to be reduced at all, just a thought I had.
The exact same kits with the same bits? They would be a lot, a lot more expensive in resin. More than double the price judging by similar kits.
I would hope some pieces could be combined for resin production - you're able to get away with some undercuts, so don't need to have things broken up quite as much as on the plastic sprues (which were actually a bit Too modular for me ).
This is sad, as I see this as the end of a good product.
The issue is was DFG a game company or a model company?
As a game company they never made a game usable with their models.
As a model company they make great models......but for what?
The problem as I see it is "what happened to the G part of DFG"? Without a game these great plastic highly detailed miniatures became essentially unusable.
The troopers fill in for guard...until GW finally, someday retools the guard. Even then they really only work as scions because of the armor.
The heavy troops? I guess you could use them as terminators.....sort of
The APC....super cool....but what do you do with it?
That flying Zug is a block of Resin.....no where near as nice as the APC and its variants with the detailed internals, not to mention the ease of plastic.
I backed the kickstarter and was hoping for a cool new game that never materialized. Without the game I just dont see much use for the minis.
If you are going to make models (especially injected plastic with its high initial investment) ....they need to be useful, either as stand ins for something else, or pieces for your own game. These accomplished neither particularly well. They were totally drool worthy kits mind you, especially when they came out. Besides sitting on the shelf looking cool, I dont know what else you can really do with them.....and that means you are not going to sell the numbers needed to justify the injection molds for high quality plastic.
I applaud the effort as I honestly feel that these made GW step up their game in a lot of ways....but in the end, these are going to sit on my shelf and never get used.
DFG is a 1-man shop, where the core capability is models design and manufacture. Not rules-writing, which is a totally separate skill. All of which requires money to put into place. I'm sure Mark did his best, and is still doing his best to keep the line moving.
I think it's unfortunate that he won't at least KS the FlugStuG (only), but then, I'm not responsible for the success and delivery.
Putting money into a game to go along with minis isn't a magic ticket to the success train either even if you've got experience, have connections, and do alot of things right as a result. Just look at Dakka's own Maelstrom's Edge; I obviously don't have any sales data but I anecdotally don't see anyone talking about it except occasionally here and haven't seen it offered for sale either locally or on the major online retailers last I checked.
I get that its difficult. But you cant really expect people to buy mass quantities of miniatures that serve little to no purpose besides looking cool. While many of us have tons of miniatures we don't use........Im pretty sure we all dreamed of using them. That hope is important to get the first buy....usefulness actually gets us to keep buying. Im talking in mass quantities here.
That Zug......blech. Dont get me wrong it looks cool, but its just going to be a big block of resin, compared to the apc.......its a step backwards and again what am I going to use it for? If it was plastic and super detailed with internals like the APC I might buy ONE for the hell of it. I look at that and anymore, I consider it a game piece, not a model (with lots of details and bits and internals)....But there is no game for it.
I really think the best bet for mark is to figure out what the models are for...If they are just going to be stand ins for existing games, thats fine. There are companies that totally survive on that....but you have to make them useful in that way if you want to sell a lot.
If the models are going to be for a game he need to flesh out the background, rules and faction and do another kickstarter featuring the game and new fleshed out factions. I'm not saying its a silver bullet, especially in a crowded market where there are now 2 dozen kickstarters everyweek. There are however a lot of people that already have DFG stuff so they would probably give it a shot. Again the minitures he put out in that kickstarter are stellar (for the most part)....I just wish I had a use for them. Its one thing to buy something like one Leviatan to put on your shelves.......its another to expect people to buy whole armies.....to only ever put on your shelves.
I personally never liked the look of the miniatures for malestorms edge. If your minitures are not good....im not going to look at the game...which may be shortsighted on my part...but I feel im also representative of the market.
Mark hit a good envelope, GW was not making great stuff at the time. They have since stepped up their game quite a bit in almost everyway, from miniature production to games design, to niche coverage, I mean they have a game for everything now. ....the door for doing a high quality game, with high quality plastic miniatures may be closing. Maybe find a partner. I dont know.....but I think it would be a shame if those molds and his ideas go to waste.
Except they don't, because they're completely out of scale.
That was the big problem with Dreamforge, for me... I loved the designs, but the troopers were entirely the wrong scale to use them in anything I currently have, so I never bought more than the first metal unit way back when.
Andrew1975 wrote: I get that its difficult. But you cant really expect people to buy mass quantities of miniatures that serve little to no purpose besides looking cool.
I'd guess most 40K minis don't ever see a board to play. And most games will never be big enough to drive mini sales. There is a market for cool models, but 28mm is not part of that market.
Andrew1975 wrote: I get that its difficult. But you cant really expect people to buy mass quantities of miniatures that serve little to no purpose besides looking cool.
I'd guess most 40K minis don't ever see a board to play. And most games will never be big enough to drive mini sales. There is a market for cool models, but 28mm is not part of that market.
Unquestionably true. If we go through the Closet of Shame that most wargamers have, why, that alone can be 2x what they have built and playable, which itself can be 2x what actually hits the tabletop.
I, for one, am always delighted when something hits the tabletop!
Andrew1975 wrote: I get that its difficult. But you cant really expect people to buy mass quantities of miniatures that serve little to no purpose besides looking cool.
I'd guess most 40K minis don't ever see a board to play. And most games will never be big enough to drive mini sales. There is a market for cool models, but 28mm is not part of that market.
I buy minis that look cool and serve no other purpose. I do not even pretend I am going to play most games I buy minis for. I've got a decent amount of DFG minis because they are a joy to assemble and convert, and they look like a perfect mix of Star Wars, WW2 and 40k.
I also buy Maelstrom's Edge minis despite having no intention to play that game.
While I obviously don't speak for every customer, I have a different perspective than yours, and in my anecdotal experience one that is fairly common.
I have some DFG stuff too, but the smattering of kits I bought wouldn't be enough to sustain a company putting out HIPS kits on the regular.
Everyone else saying they bought some DFG kits, did you buy a lot? Did you buy in quantities similar to how people buy GW kits? Because those are the types of sales you'd need to make a HIPS line profitable. And sadly rules do drive sales of models.
If the range was spin-cast metal you could try and appeal to the proxy crowd, but for the expenses put into the offerings DFG has, a game absolutely needs to drive the sales of these kits. Proxying alone isn't enough to justify their existence. Which sucks, because the kits are lovely. The infantry accessory kit with the robot mules is one of my favorite. It is a gold mine for conversions and the robo-mules are super useful for all sorts of games.
Andrew1975 wrote: I get that its difficult. But you cant really expect people to buy mass quantities of miniatures that serve little to no purpose besides looking cool.
I'd guess most 40K minis don't ever see a board to play. And most games will never be big enough to drive mini sales. There is a market for cool models, but 28mm is not part of that market.
I buy minis that look cool and serve no other purpose. I do not even pretend I am going to play most games I buy minis for. I've got a decent amount of DFG minis because they are a joy to assemble and convert, and they look like a perfect mix of Star Wars, WW2 and 40k.
I also buy Maelstrom's Edge minis despite having no intention to play that game.
While I obviously don't speak for every customer, I have a different perspective than yours, and in my anecdotal experience one that is fairly common.
Oh, I hear you, but also thats a limited thing. I think most people buy them with the ultimate intention of using them some day. Do most gamers have a closet of umbuilt stuff.....you bet. That doesnt however sell enough kits to legitimize tooling for hi quality plastic kits.
From what I get hes just not selling enough. Its not a lack of quality on the miniature end that for sure. I can only guess its a lack of utility and lack of intrest in a product with a lack of utility. Again I dont know if a game is a silver bullet, but I think it would increase exposure, utility and interest.
I bought a whole army of this stuff.....and while super cool...it sits on a shelf. I dont play guard, I wanted to play this. Had a game come out, I would have probably bought more.
DarkTraveler777 wrote: I have some DFG stuff too, but the smattering of kits I bought wouldn't be enough to sustain a company putting out HIPS kits on the regular.
Everyone else saying they bought some DFG kits, did you buy a lot? Did you buy in quantities similar to how people buy GW kits? Because those are the types of sales you'd need to make a HIPS line profitable. And sadly rules do drive sales of models.
If the range was spin-cast metal you could try and appeal to the proxy crowd, but for the expenses put into the offerings DFG has, a game absolutely needs to drive the sales of these kits. Proxying alone isn't enough to justify their existence. Which sucks, because the kits are lovely. The infantry accessory kit with the robot mules is one of my favorite. It is a gold mine for conversions and the robo-mules are super useful for all sorts of games.
I don't know how most people buy GW, but I bought a lot. I would buy more Black Widows/panzerjagers, but they disappeared before I got to order more. I've got three boxes of Valkir, a similar number of storm troopers, one or two support weapons squads, a command box and a panzerjagers box, about 21 mules (in various states of conversion), two leviathans, and 5 or 6 of the 3-up sized Valkir, aiming for 18 in good time. (I also bought a couple of boxes of WGF Germans and Russians from DFG to use as Navy officers and Rebels.). If that's not sustainable custom for a miniatures company, I give up.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @Andrew, why not play a free rule set like One Page Wargames? There are a lot of free or cheap rule sets out there that let you have a great time with the minis you already own.
If DFG had a link to a free rule set and a suggested counts-as list, would that make the miniatures more palatable?
Yeah, it wouldn't be hard to adapt a simple ruleset to cover DFG's models, heck, one could easily use GW's Age of Sigmar as the core engine. Or Space Hulk / Kill Team. Just need the Datasheets.
DarkTraveler777 wrote: I have some DFG stuff too, but the smattering of kits I bought wouldn't be enough to sustain a company putting out HIPS kits on the regular.
Everyone else saying they bought some DFG kits, did you buy a lot? Did you buy in quantities similar to how people buy GW kits? Because those are the types of sales you'd need to make a HIPS line profitable. And sadly rules do drive sales of models.
If the range was spin-cast metal you could try and appeal to the proxy crowd, but for the expenses put into the offerings DFG has, a game absolutely needs to drive the sales of these kits. Proxying alone isn't enough to justify their existence. Which sucks, because the kits are lovely. The infantry accessory kit with the robot mules is one of my favorite. It is a gold mine for conversions and the robo-mules are super useful for all sorts of games.
I don't know how most people buy GW, but I bought a lot. I would buy more Black Widows/panzerjagers, but they disappeared before I got to order more. I've got three boxes of Valkir, a similar number of storm troopers, one or two support weapons squads, a command box and a panzerjagers box, about 21 mules (in various states of conversion), two leviathans, and 5 or 6 of the 3-up sized Valkir, aiming for 18 in good time. (I also bought a couple of boxes of WGF Germans and Russians from DFG to use as Navy officers and Rebels.). If that's not sustainable custom for a miniatures company, I give up.
Neat! How many people in your play group did the same? How many DFG armies do you see out in the wild either in stores or on blogs and forums? You seem to be pulling your weight but most of us didn't. I know I originally bought a Leviathan for use as a Knight titan, and then Knight titans got released. I had good luck using the Black Widows as Inquistor models, but otherwise I had an existing IG army so didn't need to expand further.
Out of curiosity did you buy in big because you were waiting for a rule set, for proxying or just because?
Also, what are you planning for the 18 large size Valkir? A large scale Inquisitor style game? Cause that would be cool.
Neat! How many people in your play group did the same? [snip]
Out of curiosity did you buy in big because you were waiting for a rule set, for proxying or just because?
Also, what are you planning for the 18 large size Valkir? A large scale Inquisitor style game? Cause that would be cool.
1. Play Group? Uh...
I do know other people in real life who buy minis, neither of them bought in bigger than a leviathan or two and maybe some troops.
2. I bought a sampling of minis during the Kickstarter and then had so much fun with them that I kept buying more over time. I've gotten so much use out of the upgrade kits, especially using the hands and robots with other lines' kits, that I keep getting them when they are on sale. I'm mostly building a range of minis that feel like a 40k/Star Wars mashup just for the satisfaction. If they ever get played, I'll be surprised. So, just because?
3. Converting with various bits (Ravenwing sprue, Daemon princes, Gundam) to make Primarchs. Realistically, I won't ever get a full 18 because some Primarchs bore me. I'm thinking of creating some variants just to be weird/use bits.
I love me some DFG but I will agree on the whole it simply suffers from the basic conundrum.
Look at the frequent Kickstarters for various 'games'. Many of these 'games' are complete gak and are just used to advertise random miniatures. You very often have great miniatures with a gak game because the goal has never been the game, just a desire to produce some cool minis. While there are plenty of ways to make use of DFG miniatures, it's just not a big enough market - and they were never sold with actual baddies or opponents...which could have helped.
They also weren't blatantly obvious substitutes for another major game. You could shoe-horn some into 40K, but DFG has always been , as mentioned above, solidly in the "cool but why?" category. I have owned maybe 3-4 different boxes at one point, but all have eventually been sold off because I didn't have much to do with them. That's a lot to ask of a small time manufacturer.
I did entertain doing up an army for a cool alien opposition for Horus Heresy at one point.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: 2. I bought a sampling of minis during the Kickstarter and then had so much fun with them that I kept buying more over time. I've gotten so much use out of the upgrade kits, especially using the hands and robots with other lines' kits, that I keep getting them when they are on sale. I'm mostly building a range of minis that feel like a 40k/Star Wars mashup just for the satisfaction. If they ever get played, I'll be surprised. So, just because?
That is pretty impressive, but you have to admit that you likely are an outlier. Most people don't buy an army-sized lot of models for the heck of it, and the people who do likely aren't big enough in number to support a company's HIPS line.
3. Converting with various bits (Ravenwing sprue, Daemon princes, Gundam) to make Primarchs. Realistically, I won't ever get a full 18 because some Primarchs bore me. I'm thinking of creating some variants just to be weird/use bits.
Ah, that is a pretty cool idea! Have you posted any of the WiP pieces yet?
Elbows wrote: and they were never sold with actual baddies or opponents...which could have helped.
Agree with your entire post but especially this part. The Shadowkesh (am I spelling that correctly?) would have been super helpful in getting this line off the ground.
That is pretty impressive, but you have to admit that you likely are an outlier. Most people don't buy an army-sized lot of models for the heck of it, and the people who do likely aren't big enough in number to support a company's HIPS line.
They likely are, given that the line in question was launched through Kickstarter, unless the KS funding goal didn't actually cover the production cost.
Hard to say, but I suspect the KS covered the tooling, but not a typical production run of 2000-5000 each sets. He may have barely broken even after what he spent to produce non-KS kits for retail/distribution. I don't think he was flush with cash, or he'd have been able to push the Shadokesh and IronCore game system into production.
JohnHwangDD wrote: Yeah, it wouldn't be hard to adapt a simple ruleset to cover DFG's models, heck, one could easily use GW's Age of Sigmar as the core engine. Or Space Hulk / Kill Team. Just need the Datasheets.
Thats not really the point though. DFG need to be able to sell mass quantities of miniatures to justify the cost of tools and printing...without a game, without a good game, I just don't see that happening. If they were at least useful as proxies that would be one thing.....but they really are not besides the basic troopers, which may not be perfect guard scion stand ins, but they will work.
He could go back to the Kickstarter well, but thats become pretty saturated with full fledged products.
Why would anybody buy the Shadowkesh though? Ive got a few from the Kickstarter, which was another cool mini....but its not really useful without rules.
Dude, I don't know what you're trying to get at. KS is specifically to cover tooling or whatever, and it can cover a game or a single model. Simple rulesets can be good, often are. And has been well established, people will buy cool stuff, playable or not. But really, I don't know why you're even replying.
I, personally, have 95 Eisenkern (60 troops, 15 command squads/tempestors, and another 20 alternate weapons just in case I want to mix it up a bit) minis which I use as Militarum Tempestus (melee and special weapons courtesy of Mad Robot Miniatures), and 2 Keilerkopf APC's which substitute as Taurox Primes, so I did my part - but yeah the lack of a ruleset to support the minis coupled with the design choices that were made which made the miniature line less than convenient to use as 40k alternatives probably severely limited his sales.
If you look at the KS, he only had about 1,000 confirmed orders, but HIPS production runs are 2,000 to 5,000 for best price per pop.
I'm guessing that the KS covered the tooling, along with the first 1,000 orders. But I'm not sure about the next 1,000+ which would have been out of Mark's pocket.
The number of backers is irrelevant. If he needs to produce 2000 units for a run, then the KS target would have had to be the tooling costs plus the cost of that first run, because if the KS funds then that run needs to be cast, and that's going to cost the same amount regardless of how many units actually 'sold'.
A production run can be as big or as small as you like. It's just that incremental copies cost very little (but still something). If he sized the KS for 1,000 copies, and then made another 1,000 (or more), then he needs to recoup that additional 1,000.
JohnHwangDD wrote: Dude, I don't know what you're trying to get at. KS is specifically to cover tooling or whatever, and it can cover a game or a single model. Simple rulesets can be good, often are. And has been well established, people will buy cool stuff, playable or not. But really, I don't know why you're even replying.
Sorry, didnt mean to be rude. I'm just saying what I think Mark might need to do to get it up and running again in a sustainable fashion. I think the switch to resin for models without rules or that are not suitable for proxy is probably a step backwards if not a dead end.
People will buy cool stuff, which is why the resin leviathans sold before the kickstarter there is a niche within out niche that saw that giant expensive hunk of resin and said "Yeah, I want ONE of those on my self".....but I bet he sold a whole lot more of the Plastic ones as that lowered the price and made them much less intimidating for people to build, and would have possibly sold more if there was a game to use them with. I would say the infantry models and even the vehicles are a different story all together.
When you add functionality to cool stuff....well youve increased your market. People will buy cool stuff depending on what it is, I think we can look at DFG and say yeah some people bought a limited amount of cool stuff thats not playable, but not enough to sustain what he was trying to do which apparently was sustaining a line of hi quality HIPS miniatures, but you need more than just the rule of cool to do that.
If you look around......I dont see anyone making Hi quality HIPS miniatures without a game as a sales vehicle/or specifically being proxies (besides obviously dedicated model companies...but thats a different segment), there is probably a reason for that I don't think its a sustainable business model.
This Industry has come a long way, and we have seen a lot of cool miniatures even with good games backed by big companies disappear of stumble for numerous reasons (looking at you AT-43 and Dust), Its a tough business and like I said I dont know that anything is a silver bullet...but you have to put yourself in a position to succeed to have any real chance.
There was a time when GW was asleep at the wheel and left lots of doors open....they have been aggressively closing them and stepping up their game in so many ways, its going to be even harder now.
So, what would you suggest? That DFG should sell a smattering of Shadokesh units and/or reach an understanding with some rules company (Ganesha?) to promote an official Iron Core rules set (reskin of existing generic rules?) that include lists for all the Eisenkern units, plus some common enemies, like Shadokesh, WW2Russians in Space, and Evil Eisenkern?
That is pretty impressive, but you have to admit that you likely are an outlier. Most people don't buy an army-sized lot of models for the heck of it, and the people who do likely aren't big enough in number to support a company's HIPS line.
They likely are, given that the line in question was launched through Kickstarter, unless the KS funding goal didn't actually cover the production cost.
Wait, I am not sure I follow. You think that DFG's current business model is working? If there were enough people buying armies of plastic models that have no rule support from DFG then why hasn't the range expanded much since the Kickstarter? Why is the move to reduce kits and consolidate parts and even change the medium of production from HIPS to resin? I am pretty sure I am misunderstanding you point. Or are you interpreting when I said "support a company's HIPS line" to only mean funding the molds? Because I meant support as in keeping the line healthy, growing and selling.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: So, what would you suggest? That DFG should sell a smattering of Shadokesh units and/or reach an understanding with some rules company (Ganesha?) to promote an official Iron Core rules set (reskin of existing generic rules?) that include lists for all the Eisenkern units, plus some common enemies, like Shadokesh, WW2Russians in Space, and Evil Eisenkern?
Can't speak for Andrew1975, but yes, that would be better than the current state of affairs in my opinion. Rules drive model sales more than proxying alone.
Wait, I am not sure I follow. You think that DFG's current business model is working?
No, of course not. What I'm saying is that there was clearly enough of a potential customer base to fund HIPS models, because that's exactly what happened. The fact that DFG didn't capitalise on that to continue selling stuff to that customer base after the Kickstarter is the problem.
Andrew1975 wrote: Sorry, didnt mean to be rude. I'm just saying what I think Mark might need to do to get it up and running again in a sustainable fashion. I think the switch to resin for models without rules or that are not suitable for proxy is probably a step backwards if not a dead end.
Given that Mark posted a number of detailed business updates providing greater transparency than any other business I've seen, I completely understand and accept his return to resin as the best choice for his company where it is today, and I suspect that niche resin is far more sustainable for DFG than attempting to push plastic at this time. I'm personally less inclined to buy a brick of resin vs HIPS, esp without rules, but I'm sure he factored that sort of thing into his go-forward business model.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
insaniak wrote: t there was clearly enough of a potential customer base to fund HIPS models, because that's exactly what happened. The fact that DFG didn't capitalise on that to continue selling stuff to that customer base after the Kickstarter is the problem.
I'm pretty sure DFG did its best to continue selling up to the limit of demand.
Wait, I am not sure I follow. You think that DFG's current business model is working?
No, of course not. What I'm saying is that there was clearly enough of a potential customer base to fund HIPS models, because that's exactly what happened. The fact that DFG didn't capitalise on that to continue selling stuff to that customer base after the Kickstarter is the problem.
Ah, okay I understand. I think I agree with JHDD below, though. The people who would buy in big on the plastics did during the KS. What could have pushed sales further would have been a game providing incentive for other people to start making large purchases.
JohnHwangDD wrote: I'm pretty sure DFG did its best to continue selling up to the limit of demand.
"I'm pretty sure DFG did its best to continue selling up to the limit of demand."
But thats kind of this issue isnt it. He didnt really create a demand that works with his product.
Even if you look at the main page, they still advertise a game, and describe the mechanics a bit. I think Marks talent is wasted on blocks of resin as his HIPS kits are amazing.
I'm pretty sure DFG did its best to continue selling up to the limit of demand.
I'm sure they did. For whatever reason, though, it clearly didn't work out, which suggests that a different approach was needed.
For my money, the biggest problem they had was simply down to the scale. The troops are out of scale with the games most of us play, which makes them just pretty shelf filler. And the leviathans are too small for a titan and (at least until recently with Forge world's embiggened options) too big for a Knight... I've nearly bought one so many times, but can't justify the expense unless I'm actually going to have something to use it for.
So, yeah, a good game system (and an opposing force) would have helped, but for me, the models being the 'right' size would have helped more.
The 28mm Leviathans were originally used as Warhound titans (They fit in scale-wise with my Armorcast Warhounds), but later became Prophyrion Knights.
The 15mm knights became conversion bits for Knights and Dreadknights.
THe infantry became Mechanicus units (the scale isn't much of an issue then)
The truck thing..... well it's pretty. At least until the admech guys get a fitting transport unit with rules. Then it will count as that.
As for the Shadowkesh guys, they count as Ur-guls for my Dark Eldar and the handlers are medusea.
Ideally, I would love to see an actual game. Space Russians and the Shadowkesh would be enough to flesh the game out model-wise. I wouldn't even care if the base rules were a port from some other system. In fact, that might be preferable, as they rules system would all ready be ironed out.
I didnt think the scale was too much of a factor.....scale in 40k is pretty wonky anyway. I mean a catachan is too big for space marine armor if you look at scale.
Insaniak, the 15mm leviathans were recently discounted to $20. For $20, I hope you can find a use for a dread-knight sized robot. That's cheaper than a Commissar!
Wait. Do they make Commissar caps that would fit on a Dreadnaught?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Andrew1975 wrote: I didnt think the scale was too much of a factor.....scale in 40k is pretty wonky anyway. I mean a catachan is too big for space marine armor if you look at scale.
I assume half the times when someone says the scale is the problem, the scale isn't the problem. There's something, some je-ne-sais-quoi, that puts them off the model, and scale gets the blame.
JohnHwangDD wrote: I agree that scale is a non-issue for 40k. Ever see a RTB-01 Marine? Or a 2E Ork? Yeah.
The fact that GW doesn't keep to a consistent scale doesn't mean that some of us don't prefer a more or less consistent scale. The DF troops are taller than Space Marines, but with much slimmer proportions, so they don't look like they belong on the same table, in exactly the same way as RT marines don't look like they belong in the same army as the current plastics. YMMV, obviously.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Insaniak, the 15mm leviathans were recently discounted to $20. For $20, I hope you can find a use for a dread-knight sized robot. That's cheaper than a Commissar!
Not really, no. Besides, if I buy the 15mm version, I'll have no reason to continually almost buy the 28mm version...
I very nearly bought one with that recent crazy sale, but the shipping killed it.
Apparently a different manufacturer from WGF, but one that is not as heavily booked. I am intrigued by the possibility of more DFG plastics to say the least.
Here is a little something I have been waiting on for a bit over six months…. A proof of concept in plastic from another manufacturer.
I am stoked! The quality looks good, the price is right and the turn around time will be good. So why did it take six months then? Because it was free, a test mold and test shots arranged by my old account manager at WGF John P. Hayden who has struck out on his own. He asked if I could send him the original files to split and use as a non-retail sample to show other clients. I agreed and after some waiting they arrived! This is only two of the five options... As a free test mold we were limited to a single sprue.
No doubt Wai Kee and the old WGF makes incredible plastic, but his shop is always jammed with production, this makes it pretty much impossible for me to look at that as a viable resource for future production or Kickstarter’s. I had my doubts that anyone could get close, but I am reeealllly happy with these shots, and as this opens up the door again I am eyeing another Kickstarter.
I am still pulling together all the costs and if it appears to be a real option, I am more than happy to give it a go. This time would be FAR more focused. One kit at a time, with true costs, the molds and production would need to be funded in full for that ‘episode’? But if it works, another would be on the heals of the last… Ferals? then StuG? then Shadokesh vehicle or walker… then whatever sounds fun.
With this kind of Kickstarter there would be a very focused goal, drive and costs… We are not so much looking at the typical song and dance hype train. The product would make it or not on its own merits, and cover its true costs.
Soooo what do you think?
Awesome, it's probably one of the few really interesting potential Xenos designs of late. But hey, were they always supposed to be that big? Either I'm missing something or these are, like 65-70mm tall. I thought they were supposed to be tall-ish 28mm infantry?
cuda1179 wrote: Flugstug is still resin, as far as I know. Shadowkesh are 28mm, but their race is just that big.
Ah, okay. But how about that limited feral shadokesh with handler? That handler was basically slightly taller than your average 28mm heroic infantryman. Was that the one that's out of scale then?
cuda1179 wrote: Flugstug is still resin, as far as I know. Shadowkesh are 28mm, but their race is just that big.
Ah, okay. But how about that limited feral shadokesh with handler? That handler was basically slightly taller than your average 28mm heroic infantryman. Was that the one that's out of scale then?
I'm not sure. I guess we will see when the final versions are released. Still, I'm anxious to see Shadowkesh vehicles.
cuda1179 wrote: Flugstug is still resin, as far as I know. Shadowkesh are 28mm, but their race is just that big.
Ah, okay. But how about that limited feral shadokesh with handler? That handler was basically slightly taller than your average 28mm heroic infantryman. Was that the one that's out of scale then?
I'm not sure. I guess we will see when the final versions are released. Still, I'm anxious to see Shadowkesh vehicles.
You and me both. I really do hope they get scaled down a bit, the more I look at those big 'uns the more it seems they just lack detail for that size, certainly in today's market. Given how detailed most of the current DFG catalogue is I'm holding out hope
Considering what Mark would have to charge per mini (complexity costs more than size), I would prefer for them to be larger so that I can more easily persuade myself to I feel like I got my money's worth.
I have been a ship without a rudder for about two years, WGF pulled out of retail and there was simply no way for me to continue production with them due to the delays. Popularity has a price and this industry is pretty intensive on sustainable and consistent releases... (not you but the retail side for the most part) and honestly making that all work from the margin standpoint is an up hill battle.
But I have a course and destination I did not have even two weeks ago. The Shadokesh samples and the fact that they were quite good has allowed me to pull together all the knowledge I have gained so far, from a small time manufacturers standpoint and work up a plan to move forward.I was pushing this direction for a while but never happy with the move to resin... This, I hope, I think, will be a viable path.
Regardless, its great to be here again and I hope that with the new direction we will have loads to talk about
From my blog post:
WHERE TO GO FROM HERE - PART 2
As I eluded to in the last post, I am working through the numbers trying to decide if an episodic production and release through Kickstarter is a viable option.
So, we now have a course and a destination… Which honestly is a very welcome and refreshing change.
Why use Kicksarter? As a marketing platform it allows to reach a wider audience, not just my current customers but those new to the hobby and those who never knew DreamForge was even a ‘thing’. I think we all know that the train has stalled, and its going to take a lot of effort and lots of attention to get it rolling again. Perhaps there will be a time that I can move off the Kickstarter platform, but for now… The broader exposure is required. This exposure comes at a price, Between the Kickstarter fees, the currency transaction fees and the backer support fees in the form of a post Kickstarter service to collect shipping and allow backers to add items or options, we are looking at near 10% in fees alone.
Expectations: Not every Kickstarter campaign will succeed, that’s OK. If the demand for a particular kit is not there, then its not… No harm no foul, we move on to the next product offering. I completely expect for there to be unfunded projects that never make it to plastic and possibly (if there was enough interest) may see a resin release instead. There will be changes to how DreamForge approaches on hand inventory and even they type of products offered, not all offerings need to be Iron Core specific, it provides far more flexibility in product development than making sure each product fits neatly into the project I have already started. If I get an itch to do…well anything, it gives a platform to see if all of you are also interested.
How will that work? And what does that look like from the customers side?
The plan is to have a very focused Kickstarter for a single product, its actual production costs and any profits expected will need to be folded into the funding goal. This is a strong departure from the retail model, where revenues are gained over time and the investment/debt is front loaded.
Product availability outside the initial Kickstarter will be limited, 10% to 20% beyond the total needed to fulfill the Kickstarter will be run, some of that will be soaked up by the inevitable issues, damaged kits, mispacked or missing items from a kit and kits that never make it to the backer and get lost in transit.
There may be re-runs offered on popular kits in future Kickstarter’s, but there will be minimums that need to be met, typically a 500 unit run will be needed. If I feel that the kit will sell, I may assist with purchasing some of that re-run myself, to provide stock on hand. The best way for a customer to approach this is to buy what you want and what you think you will need at the time of the offering, I cannot make a promise that there will be a second run if the overall interest is not there.
Customers will need to pay for the actual shipping costs for the products they back.
Shipping, as we all know is stuuupid expensive from the US to anywhere outside its borders. Each Kickstarter will be shipped directly from China to mitigate the expense to the customer as much as possible, this means most of the world will likely see a drastic cost reduction, but the US will see an increase. Why don’t I just ship the US from the US? Well, because it’s a hidden cost, one that would need to be calculated into the Kickstarter… Someone has to pay to get it to the US before it could be sent out from our warehouse, add to this the staffing costs, the shipping package costs and overhead, and it becomes a real issue that has not been factored into the per kit price… We are running as lean as possible, to provide a per kit price that is as low as possible, there will be no room for uncalculated expenses.
How are the Kickstarters structured? This is open for revision, but the plan is to absorb the costs and required profits into a 1000 minimum unit run. If it costs $40,000 for the molds, production, boxes and services, then the cost of each unit would be $40.00.
What happens if a Kickstarter goes nuts and the total funding far outstrips the required funding goal? Do you get a discount? Discounts will be offered when you pick up multiple kits, not by the overall success of a product. Those are profits that get re-invested to make DreamForge healthy, to pay for game development, to pay for additional stock, to help pay for re-release of the current line of kits, as those tools will need to be re-cut at some point. I am not pulling the discount off the table, but for the foreseeable future, I have a lot of catching up to do and core development that needs to happen for DreamForge to grow and thrive.
I want to be clear, this is not going to be a song and dance Kickstarter model, there ‘may’ be extras offered if there is room on the sprues, ( I will try to pack them the best that I can) but anything extra in the form of products adds to the costs and I am not bulking the costs to deal with that. I am trying to keep the price per kit to you as low as I possibly can.
Longer term with the releases and stock on hand. Obviously, this model does is not ideal for some aspects of brand development, limited supply concerns may not be ideal but it’s not unusual when we look around the industry and other companies that made their way on Kickstarter. I am not GW, I do not have their sales volume or the resources available to behave like GW. Please understand that expecting a small manufacture in plastic to be able to behave and function as one of the top two or three in the industry, may not really be a reasonable expectation. I will strive to get there, but until the financial aspect of that shift make sense, I will be doing what is best for the growth of the company with the resources available.
I think we can all agree, that Iron Core needs at least two to three full factions, terrain and a rules set, so as we move through these requirements, I will try to weight when it becomes viable as its own free standing IP. The goal is to grow the brand, expand the product offering, make available some of the older kits and even start to offer some options for those not interested in Iron Core. Fantasy, Cyberpunk and a myriad of other avenues are available and the wider the base of offerings, the more stable the base.
All of this is dependent on me, making what you want, delivered at a reasonable price within a reasonable time.
I am very excited about the prospect and the future. I am really looking forward to exploring your ‘needful things’ and if they can be created and successfully funded in an episodic, backer driven environment. I hope that you join be on this new course and help guide my had in future releases.
Soooo many itches to scratch, so little time
I will be reaching out in a few locations looking for honest feedback and direction from all of you.
Through surveys sent to my mailing list… So please sign up on the DreamForge-Games website if you have not.
Through my Facebook group DreamForge-Games Artist Retreat https://www.facebook.com/groups/1401326060121348/ (please do not try to message me here) For whatever reason FB and I do not sync well…. I must be an old fart, not a huge fan of FB or twitter
Glad to see you’re going to put out more kits! I wish it could be a more traditional release model but I understand why you feel this is the best option.
Have you considered concentrating on designing and releasing kits that are intended for the Iron Core universe but could easily be used as proxies? It feels like post KS the Leviathans gained a massive boost as alternatives to GW knights. I’m wondering if other vehicles and non-humans where discrepancies in proportion are less obvious would be an easier sell compared to something like the Esenkern that just don’t line up visually with other manufacturers proportions. I just dug out what I have from you thinking of getting more and it struck me how I have Fantasy Flight, Spiral Arm Studios, GW, and other companies minis all looking like they could go on the same table while the Esenkern just looked wrong but the LE Shadokesh Feral and Handler were fine
I hope you're pleasantly surprised by chinese shipping prices. I ordered a mini off of ebay in a deal that seemed to be too good to be true (hint: it was!) that was listed as in the US but it turned out to be shipping from china. The cost for shipping that with delivery confirmation across half the planet was less than it would have cost me to ship it down the street with USPS.
warboss wrote: I hope you're pleasantly surprised by chinese shipping prices. I ordered a mini off of ebay in a deal that seemed to be too good to be true (hint: it was!) that was listed as in the US but it turned out to be shipping from china. The cost for shipping that with delivery confirmation across half the planet was less than it would have cost me to ship it down the street with USPS.
Yep, the US was still a bit higher that what I can get price wise if it was local but overall not horrid. It works out much better for the rest of the world though and if I had to add in the shipping to me from China and then add USPS, China post still wins, even here in the US.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ChaoticMind wrote: Glad to see you’re going to put out more kits! I wish it could be a more traditional release model but I understand why you feel this is the best option.
Have you considered concentrating on designing and releasing kits that are intended for the Iron Core universe but could easily be used as proxies? It feels like post KS the Leviathans gained a massive boost as alternatives to GW knights. I’m wondering if other vehicles and non-humans where discrepancies in proportion are less obvious would be an easier sell compared to something like the Esenkern that just don’t line up visually with other manufacturers proportions. I just dug out what I have from you thinking of getting more and it struck me how I have Fantasy Flight, Spiral Arm Studios, GW, and other companies minis all looking like they could go on the same table while the Esenkern just looked wrong but the LE Shadokesh Feral and Handler were fine
Aliens are a hard sell, even harder without a game or proxy use. Shadokesh, may or may not be the first KS but I have no issue giving them a try, if they do not generate enough interest...So be it, I move to the next kit.
As far as the Eisenkern matching, they never were meant to be GW clones and I really did not want to head down that path, the proportions that GW uses are not where I want to go. Could the Eisenkern have been a bit shorter? sure, but the bulk of a GW figure.. Nah, not for that line.
If I made a set with an eye strictly as a proxy, then sure! but I would likely shoot more for the FW scaling, which is a bit less exaggerated.
thank god you're going back into production, I just had to pay £50 to get a 15mm left mauler claw shipped from Australia because I couldn't find one in stock *anywhere*
Smaller scale kickstarters may be a good way to go, it definitely avoids the problem of the initial KS where there was so much promised and so much going on that it took forever to deliver
ChaoticMind wrote: Glad to see you’re going to put out more kits! I wish it could be a more traditional release model but I understand why you feel this is the best option.
Have you considered concentrating on designing and releasing kits that are intended for the Iron Core universe but could easily be used as proxies? It feels like post KS the Leviathans gained a massive boost as alternatives to GW knights. I’m wondering if other vehicles and non-humans where discrepancies in proportion are less obvious would be an easier sell compared to something like the Esenkern that just don’t line up visually with other manufacturers proportions. I just dug out what I have from you thinking of getting more and it struck me how I have Fantasy Flight, Spiral Arm Studios, GW, and other companies minis all looking like they could go on the same table while the Esenkern just looked wrong but the LE Shadokesh Feral and Handler were fine
Aliens are a hard sell, even harder without a game or proxy use. Shadokesh, may or may not be the first KS but I have no issue giving them a try, if they do not generate enough interest...So be it, I move to the next kit.
As far as the Eisenkern matching, they never were meant to be GW clones and I really did not want to head down that path, the proportions that GW uses are not where I want to go. Could the Eisenkern have been a bit shorter? sure, but the bulk of a GW figure.. Nah, not for that line.
If I made a set with an eye strictly as a proxy, then sure! but I would likely shoot more for the FW scaling, which is a bit less exaggerated.
Wasn’t aware aliens were such a hard sell.
Definitely didn’t want you to change your human’s proportions, I like the Eisenkern but I see how the difference in proportions might put some people off. I was thinking that it might not hurt to build brand recognition up with choices that are first and foremost for YOUR line but could have use outside it because they look fine next to GW etc. unlike the Eisenkern infantry vs. most 28mm figs.
Goremaul wrote:I'm super excited about those Shadowkesh test sprues. They look awesome!
Also hoping to see the "Feral" Shadowkesh in plastic at some point.
Thank you and yeah, me too... I like the Ferals, they are something I would like to KS shortly after the Warriors... files are done and split and ready to tool.
ChaoticMind wrote: Glad to see you’re going to put out more kits! I wish it could be a more traditional release model but I understand why you feel this is the best option.
Have you considered concentrating on designing and releasing kits that are intended for the Iron Core universe but could easily be used as proxies? It feels like post KS the Leviathans gained a massive boost as alternatives to GW knights. I’m wondering if other vehicles and non-humans where discrepancies in proportion are less obvious would be an easier sell compared to something like the Esenkern that just don’t line up visually with other manufacturers proportions. I just dug out what I have from you thinking of getting more and it struck me how I have Fantasy Flight, Spiral Arm Studios, GW, and other companies minis all looking like they could go on the same table while the Esenkern just looked wrong but the LE Shadokesh Feral and Handler were fine
Aliens are a hard sell, even harder without a game or proxy use. Shadokesh, may or may not be the first KS but I have no issue giving them a try, if they do not generate enough interest...So be it, I move to the next kit.
As far as the Eisenkern matching, they never were meant to be GW clones and I really did not want to head down that path, the proportions that GW uses are not where I want to go. Could the Eisenkern have been a bit shorter? sure, but the bulk of a GW figure.. Nah, not for that line.
If I made a set with an eye strictly as a proxy, then sure! but I would likely shoot more for the FW scaling, which is a bit less exaggerated.
Wasn’t aware aliens were such a hard sell.
Definitely didn’t want you to change your human’s proportions, I like the Eisenkern but I see how the difference in proportions might put some people off. I was thinking that it might not hurt to build brand recognition up with choices that are first and foremost for YOUR line but could have use outside it because they look fine next to GW etc. unlike the Eisenkern infantry vs. most 28mm figs.
Don't get me wrong, you are correct. it would indeed help if they were easy proxies. This goes way back to how this all started. WGF was not looking and getting out of retail and was willing to produce anything that I designed, which gave me a great deal of freedom with less concerns about needing everything to be a proxie. Fast forward, they are gone now and a broader view is a smarter view but we have a boat load of troopers out there, so for the Eisenkern, we have a set scale and proportions... Others I can fudge a bit to make them more proxies friendly but they still need to look at home with the existing Eisenkern, so its an area that will need some looking after
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Padre wrote:Mark, welcome back and all the best - will be watching for the Kickstarter(s) with eager anticipation!
Charax wrote:thank god you're going back into production, I just had to pay £50 to get a 15mm left mauler claw shipped from Australia because I couldn't find one in stock *anywhere*
Smaller scale kickstarters may be a good way to go, it definitely avoids the problem of the initial KS where there was so much promised and so much going on that it took forever to deliver
It must be very hard to choose what models to develop if you are trying to expand your own setting while also catering to the larger 40k/general sci fi audience. I suppose that is what is good about ks, letting stuff fund on its own merit is a smart way to see what the market actually wants. I doubt the Shadowkesh would be nearly as popular as the Eisenkern (heck, 5 of the blogs I was reading featured those guys everywhere!) but they still look great and I would be happy to see them get some plastic kits as well.
When in doubt, another human infantry kit would sell like hotcakes I'm sure. Given that the Eisenkern are essentially the Nazis of this game, some French Resistance guys, lightly armoured and more dishevelled would be a great addition.
On a somewhat related note I just painted up some Mules, what awesome little models!
If I could impose on a moment of your time?
As you all know DreamForge is embarking on a new path, new releases in a new format.
Although the Kickstarter platform has a lot of advantages, it only makes sense to put your best foot forward and provide your customers with the items they desire.
To that end, I have created a very short survey to get all of your feedback, not just about the StuG and Shadokesh, but about DreamForge and the general direction you would like to see.
Please... Take a moment and let your voice be heard.
I do love the shadowkesh, and would probably get some just to have them. Maybe count them as Crusaders in my Astra Militarum army? But mine are renegades who associate with aliens, so that works. But yeah, it's hard to see those being as big a seller as the Eisenkern stormtroopers since I'm not sure how people would use them.
Terrain might be a good seller. A lot of people can use more terrain. Or a second human faction as mentioned might be a bigger initial seller without having a game for them.
Terrain might be a good seller. A lot of people can use more terrain. Or a second human faction as mentioned might be a bigger initial seller without having a game for them.
Why waste limited resources on terrain when there are a hundred other companies putting out all manner of terrain already? Including GW. Seems like a waste for a small operation.
Terrain is cart before the horse - you create terrain to better evoke the world that you battle in. However, the artwork suggests that the typical warspace looks like a regular, industrial place that can use standard WW2 terrain.
Answered the survey, thanks for giving us an opportunity to express our opinions.
Strange, off-the-wall question; I love the keilerkopf transport, but I never seem to see its price reduced when you have a sale - is there a particular reason it doesn’t get discounted?
My complete wish list, in no particular order of significance:
Shadowkesh Infantry kits (a couple troopers, and an HQ)
Shadowkesh vehicles At least one Leviathan type with alternate builds
Hover Stug, possibly with alternate build
Paladin Walker
Black widow walking tank
Space Russians (sorry I can't remember the proper faction name) Using them as a lower-tech human faction. Large tracked tanks fulfilling the roll Leviathans usually do.
A quick thought on all this. People keep saying DF models should be able to be proxies in other games to help model sales. What if the opposite could be true as well?
If there was an official Iron Core game the rules for factions could be made in such a way that players could cannibalize generic model kits and models from existing tabletop games (40k, Dust, AT-43, Warmachine, etc.) to fulfil rolls that don't yet have models in the game.
People could then easily switch games (even if it's only to try it out) without too much investment. It's only a matter of time before they buy actual DF products.
Heck, that's kind of how Games Workshop started out. Back in the day there were a handful of Marine and Eldar troops and you had to make due with converting up a WWII tank or some Zoids.
Writing a wargame specifically for using someone else's minis is a bad idea, because you are constantly chasing a moving target as new releases come out.
If the DFGIC game is at a high level of abstraction ("elite heavy infantry"), rather than fine detail ("not-Terminator with paired not-Lightning Claws"), then it would be better. You'd make a big "count as" sheet like 40k3 had, although there are a lot more things in 8E+ than what 40k had back in 3E. And 3E had a lot more stuff than RT did.
If I were responsible for the DFGIC game, I'd reskin KOGlight for the core activity and resolution engine, and then tack on bonuses specific to the IC universe weapons and units. But really, there needs to be a vision for what it's like to sit down and play, whether it requires masses of models on a dedicated 4'x6' table, or whether it's something of a fancy skirmish that you play at the kitchen table.
For any wargame I play I like the idea of scaleability.
I'd like the "average" game to play on a 4x4 table, with the option of playing smaller games or larger games on smaller or larger tables.
I'd like the average game to be the equivalent of 2 leviathans on each side. Of course, I mean each Leviathan being equal to 2 smaller vehicles, or 4 squads of elite infantry, or 6 squads of light infantry. So, a typical army may be: 1 Leviathan, a tank, one elite infantry, and three light infantry.
Completed the survey, basically my feedback sums up my feelings on dreamforge "regardless of what you decide to do please consider my response to anything as shut up and take my money"
Love the models and love Mark, regardless of whether or not I can see a use for whatever comes out next, I will throw my monies at it just to support Mark
cuda1179 wrote: A quick thought on all this. People keep saying DF models should be able to be proxies in other games to help model sales. What if the opposite could be true as well?
If there was an official Iron Core game the rules for factions could be made in such a way that players could cannibalize generic model kits and models from existing tabletop games (40k, Dust, AT-43, Warmachine, etc.) to fulfil rolls that don't yet have models in the game.
People could then easily switch games (even if it's only to try it out) without too much investment. It's only a matter of time before they buy actual DF products.
Heck, that's kind of how Games Workshop started out. Back in the day there were a handful of Marine and Eldar troops and you had to make due with converting up a WWII tank or some Zoids.
The problem is that alternative games come and go, but good alternative models stick around.
First, thank you all VERY MUCH for your help and participation! It really does help….
MY thoughts on Terrain:
When it comes to Terrain, it’s a hard nut to pin down. KS after KS has funded and funded very well, so I think there is a pent-up demand (If you hit the right style or fill a need). The post sales are likely poor, (at least in my experience watching others) its something that would need to be looked at from the standpoint of ‘make the profit in the KS’ to be a safer bet. The problem with plastic is that with the lower demand after the initial sale, you are defeating the reason to have plastic (a medium that can be easily reproduced in vast quantities) Where it works even then is if your initial sale is quite large… There is a tipping point in economy of scale where resin no longer makes sense.
I know large factories that do resin in China and they can provide that service at a reasonable cost but if you want modular walls that create a structure, it may be an issue due to variations in the cast, this is where plastic shines… the same every time. So, I think it comes down to your design and how loose you go with your part-part tolerance if you decide to go resin. Durability is also a concern but there are resins that mimic rubber like qualities, they will not be as rigid, but they can be very tough.
A Game:
Yeah, it would help a TON if there was a game, at least from a brand loyalty and a freedom to release non-proxy kits.
I have the bones of one created by Robey Jenkins, but there is a lot of meat that needs to be put on, its more of a flow concept and a framework that anything ready to go. Robey came at this from the standpoint of trying to solve an obvious issue… How can you have a unit the can rule the battlefield and make everything obsolete and still have a fair and challenging game for all. His idea was quite cleaver and indeed moved a long way to dealing with that problem. The primary issue I have with the core play aspect is that it created a ‘trackable’ an item that must be adjusted like a tick box up and down each turn. Not a fan of ‘trackables’. SO I started playing with that as a starting point and folded that trackable into the game more deeply as a resource… You would not just be tracking something but utilizing this resource each phase, making it a part of the game rather than an external measure of progress…. If that makes sense.
A simplistic game that only aims to resolve a round of combat is a fairly easy thing... A game that deals with the problems of walking battleships is more challenging, a game that makes you and your opponent agonize over every decision takes more thought, care and work. Getting a game from a word doc. to a published state with art is a HUGE undertaking.
Sooooo the bones are almost there but far from done and missing the meat and skin. Play testing for me is a HUGE issue, I do not have the time or the network to deal with that (I live in a gaming desert, barren and devoid of places and players) I am an atrocious proof reader, so not something that I can be relied upon to complete successfully.
What all that equates to is I need to partner up with a company that can fully deliver that aspect or pay a kings ransom to have a studio produce it for me…. Which is NOT cheap. About $15K (Just for a play tested system, no art, no layout…just the bone and muscle) soooooo it’s an issue and one not easily resolved.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Barzam wrote: I just want to see those promised Space Soviets show up someday.
Yep, those are being dusted off and will be back in the design phase sooner rather than later.
You can do a lot with the internet...I'd definitely poke around until you find some people who are confident in technical editing and playtesting (anyone with models and terrain could do it). But you have to trust them of course.
I've done some playtesting and editing for other small time game designers, but it's because we frequented the same forums and exchanged a lot of ideas before being trusted to peek behind the curtain and help produce something.
The big problem is you shouldn't ask for "random" feedback or playtesting. The overwhelming majority of people are going to give you bad feedback, having no experience in game design or balancing stuff, etc. You need some proper, qualified feedback by people who are long-term hobbyists or have experience producing/writing/playtesting rules.
Andrea's published a lot of different rule types for a variety of sources- he's had stuff published by companies like Osprey, put out tons of his own content, and has some experience as well publishing others' works through his company.
He's also licensed his system out for games like Deep Wars and ShadowSea, both from Antimatter Games, and I think there was another that did this as well.
Plus he's a cool guy and may just have some good advice...
The main rules could be cannibalized, but just create your own "faction" rules.
That would be funny though, if the core rules were exactly the same. You could then theoretically have cross-over games of Iron Core vs. Maelstrom's Edge.
Reminds me of years ago when Mongoose Publishing shared core rules from their Starship Troopers game with a modern warfare game and a "knights of the round table" game. You could play Iraq Republican Guard vs Mobile infantry or Arachnids vs. King Arthur
The game rules are easy. Getting people to play it is hard.
If I had the funds, my way to getting my game to be played would be to have a good tournament/competitive support system out there. Give stores an incentive to run events, and for tournament players to go to these events.
That can be expensive and a lot of work if your goal is to sell figures that aren't in scale with other games' figures.
I for one love your stuff for a space opera RPG game I am writing and hope to run in the next year. I'm actively searching for other figures in the scale yours are to match them.
I live in the middle of nowhere. Other than a couple of local 40k players the closest gaming stores are either 70 miles to my west, or 90 miles to my east.
It's kind of the reason I only play 40k, any other game is just too much of an investment in time and money when you can't find an opponent. I'd LOVE to try out other systems, if I could justify it. I have the rules for Mantic's Warpath, Firefight, or whatever they call it now. I just haven't found a friend willing to give it a go, even with proxy models.
That being said, if a game came out that was streamlined a little, and was easy enough to understand in 30 minutes of reading, I'd buy the rules and give the game a shot. Other than simple core rules, there needs to be WAY less "special rules" than what is currently in 40k. Unique stats and weapons, yes, that's easy enough to understand. Maybe like 8-10 universal special rules across the entire game.
I think I could sucker in my two local guys into playing something like that.
cuda1179 wrote: A quick thought on all this. People keep saying DF models should be able to be proxies in other games to help model sales. What if the opposite could be true as well?
If there was an official Iron Core game the rules for factions could be made in such a way that players could cannibalize generic model kits and models from existing tabletop games (40k, Dust, AT-43, Warmachine, etc.) to fulfil rolls that don't yet have models in the game.
People could then easily switch games (even if it's only to try it out) without too much investment. It's only a matter of time before they buy actual DF products.
Heck, that's kind of how Games Workshop started out. Back in the day there were a handful of Marine and Eldar troops and you had to make due with converting up a WWII tank or some Zoids.
The problem is that alternative games come and go, but good alternative models stick around.
Almost makes me want to quote my suggestions again from more than two-odd years ago last time this came up. I suggested that some of these smaller manufacturers come together to create a ruleset together that was cross-brand-compatible. Nobody (except Vic) wanted to play, and so now it feels like that time of real opportunity, with a weak GW and popular sentiment very against them has largely passed.
Maelstroms edge seems like it would be the easiest/best solution...
Later on down the line you can release your own special rules, but you need something people can play with immediately. Liscencing the Medge rules also would give you some ready made opposing forces in plastic. Eisenkern vs The Broken etc.
I second Ganesha as an option though those games give a particular "cinematic" type of game based around heroes doing heroic thing and minions dying in droves. Another option for rules would be to look at the squad based sci-fi skirmish rules put out by "Nordic Weasel". Available as PDFs on wargames vault. He's an experienced rules writer. No experience of MEdge. Someone round here bought it but after reading it never wanted to play it. I took that as a negative review
All that said I'm not sure that rules is the answer. Writing rules is one thing but then you need to also flesh out the world so its enough to get people interested in it. That takes a lot - fluff, art etc. Some established settings have a huge headstart on you for that already. Without wanting to sound rude I don't really get a feel for what sort of universe your kits are meant to inhabit. I think they're great and I have bought some, but its space knights and space nazis in a sort of modern urban cityscape? So I think you'd have a lot of work to put out a game that I'd buy. Whereas I'd be more likely to buy kits to proxy as others have said.
First a question, that's a repeat of a fellow poster: What's up with the size difference between the Shadokesh beast handler and these Shadokesh troops? Do they come in different sizes and the beast handlers are the runts of the pack?
As stated previously, I love a LOT of the DFG designs and have been following the NoseGoblin since his first 3d titan designs. But... I strongly dislike resin products, I've been known to make exceptions to that, but that's under very specific circumstances. Single cast items, no assembly required (such as the old FW Eldar statue) OR something that I'm such a big fan of and I've exhausted every thing else on my wishlist (that hasn't happened in a LONG time). So when DFG announced that they would stop doing plastic an go resin instead I was very disappointed, I could understand it quite well from a business perspective, but it would mean that I wouldn't be a customer anymore. Now that this decision has been reversed I'm quite happy! But I am curious about the quality of the models from the new manufacturer.
As for your new KS set...
Terrain: There are currently no other companies making sci-fi terrain in hard model plastic that isn't skull encrusted dark ghothic (GW). That could be an interesting market niche to occupy. But there are many alternatives in resin, HDF and in 3D STL files (to print yourself or have others print for you). Making terrain in 28-32mm style is quite expensive do to the mold size, which imho makes it a risky proposition to say the least. Especially after a long hiatus and too many it seemed DFG went out of business. If you want to develop terrain for your Iron Core universe, why not do a 3D STL KS? Those can be quite successful, especially when your back doing plastic KS and waiting between KS on product being shipped, you could even license certain people to print those models for profit. See how printablescenery.com did their KS (and how successful they were), also they have licensees all across the globe that print their models for people that don't have or want a 3D printer. If you want to do plastic terrain eventually, you could even hold back those designs that benefit a lot from plastic molding.
Vehicles: DFG vehicles are awesome! But the Leviathans filled a huge hole that was later filled by GW itself. The APC is absolutely beautiful, but imho far more daunting to build then the Leviathans, the Stug seems a lot more reasonable in that regard. I see a couple of pro's and con's for the STug being your first plastic KS. I suspect that the Stug will be more expensive to produce then a squad of Shadokesh, I could be wrong here. In a standard situation there would be far more infantry then vehicles in most game armies. The challenge here is that your not selling an army, but a single model kit that will either be sold as a proxy in another game or as a fun model project. From the top of my head I can see the Stug be used as a Vindicator in a Primaris army or as a Leman Russ (variant) in an Imperial Guard army that is highly advanced (I was recently thinking of the DFG stormtroopers as a basis for a Horus Heresy Imperialis Militia). Due to it's looks it might also appeal to some historical kit modelers that want something a little different to build, that's a pretty big market, the problem would be reaching them and convincing them to use KS.
Infantry: The Eisenkern Stormtrooper sets are great, they look great, they build great, they paint great! The Valkir were a great Space Marine alternative and I've seen quite a few conversions that made them into Sisters of Battle, but due to GW releasing Sisters next year in plastic I think this is a shrinking market. Although still interesting for those who want something a little different from the standard GW ascetic. On the other hand, there is a small window of opportunity to re-release the Valkir with female head plastic sprues when GW releases the beta rules for the Sisters at the end of the year...
As mentioned with the Stug, infantry should sell traditionally better then (big) vehicles, but here I do not think that is the hard rule here. If the infantry models are too niche and don't have an appropriator proxy place, they will sell a whole lot less then a tank that does. Based on the Shadokesh beast handler, I always thought that they would be great alternatives to Dark Eldar, but with their large size this could be an issue with 40k (a lot harder to hide such a model behind terrain). As I'm typing this, I suddenly realize they might make good proxies for Infinity (alien race), maybe even as creepier Skorne in Hordes or as a new alien race in Starfinder (you could actually make an official supplement for that). But after having seen the models for the Feral Shadokesh (although I don't know how big they are) I think those might be good for Dark Eldar Ur-Ghul or even as Khymerae. For Age of Sigmar (Warhammer Fantasy for those not keeping up) they might very well function as Ghouls. I could see them used as Daemons for both games. In many other scifi/fantasy games (including RPGs) they would make excellent monsters. Depening on size, they look like a whole lot less complex then the troopers, so should be cheaper to mold/produce. Which should lower the initial buy in for KS, which is a good thing after such a long hiatus. Might also mean faster turn around and faster KS fulfillment.
Rules: No, just no! They cost a ton of money, with very little certainty that they would ever give a return on investment. It also creates an invisible wall around your minis, making them for your game 'only'. While on one hand attracting more customers, that would also scare away a lot of people. Especially when they don't like your rules set. I've seen quite intelligent people react to a cool model "It's a shame that I can't use model X for Y, it looks so cool!" After which I ask, why? "Because it's for game Z." After I point out that they could easily use it for A, B, C, D, etc. You see them pause, you can hear the gears turn, the light bulb going on and "Hmm... That's interesting!". The problem is that you have to point it out.
Another issue with rules is that they need to constantly evolve. Osprey has a good model with releasing a game in a book (I think Frostgrave is the exception here), pumping and dumping that, but they don't need to support a miniatures line. The amount of whining with things like 40k, WarmaHordes and even X-wing indicates that it's a constant fight for re-balancing and those are large companies, especially Privateer Press was slow on the solutions and that cost them a lot of customers. I don't think that you want that as a small company. Partnering with someone else makes you wholly dependent on them, I don't know DFG's position on that, but I expect they aren't comfortable with that either. If on the other hand those rules that were in development a couple of years ago got released commercially at the time, after the last two years that rules set would be very, very dead. There are so many dead rules sets out there it's depressing!
You might want to consider making the rules Open Gaming Content (OGL), this is what Wizards of the Coast (WotC) did with their D&D 3rd edition, it allowed many others to create gaming content with a common rules set. WotC had determined that developing adventures would be unprofitable to them, so they let others make them for their customers. So those rules were open source, but all the IP (names, art, setting, etc.) wasn't, this allowed WotC to keep control of their D&D brand. You could do something similar with your Iron Core setting/rules, make the rules open source (OGL for example) and let the community develop and 'patch' those rules and stats. It would allow you to initially focus on miniatures and background, but you could always publish a rule book with your IP and rules after a few years of free development time. Folks could easily make an powered armor list (Space Marines) without using any GW IP, publish it to make it compatible with your rules and lists and folks could play with SM against the Eisenkern or Shadokesh. Game rules are already quite difficult to copyright or patent, just look at what the folks who made 9th Age do (rewritten 8th edition Warhammer Fantasy Battle rules). The problem with how 9th Age did it is that they made another closed rules set, one of very many, if folks want to do fan rules they are stuck with asking for permission to publish, that is until the non-profit goes under. Iterations of those OGL rules from 2000 are still being used today, even after WotC abandoned the OGL license in 2007 and went back to it in 2016. More info: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Game_License Making the game itself opensource would not only do a way with a lot of development costs, it would also create a lot of goodwill, free advertisement and removes that invisible wall from your minis.
Maybe make a 'uses' section on the DFG website, where people post their usage of your minis in other games (besides the obvious 40k usages).
Yeah, maybe for the time being, having rules probably aren't worth the investment. Maybe it would be better to have like army lists or stats for your models in already existing games systems. Like Tomorrow's War or Konflict '47. Are there other "generic" sci fi games out there that work for squads of 28mm guys? Just having some suggested stats for other games would at least give some people an excuse to use them in a game. Not sure how legal that is, though...
Terrain: There are currently no other companies making sci-fi terrain in hard model plastic that isn't skull encrusted dark ghothic (GW).
That's not really correct. Mantic make a lot. It's modular, not gothic, and I'd describe it as "cheap and cheerful". Quality is ok for a reasonable price. They have a fairly generic set of pieces and a more industrial set.
Are the Eisenkern still fluffwise the goodies, because it is something that bothers me about them. They borrow heavily from the imagry of facism, but (fluffwise) they are not space facists.
I think if there was a rule book, the Eisenkern would need some more irony (like Starship Troopers).
From what I recall of the lore, the setting diverged during WW1 so the Eisenkern are descended from Imperial Germany and Austria-Hungary with no specific connection to the Nazis. Of course most of their current equipment has more of a WW2 vibe with the MG42s, Stugs and whatnot. It would be great to see some elements that reflect the earlier divergent point though - I always kinda imagined that Leviathan pilots had a dress uniform like a 19th century Hussar
Azazelx wrote:
Almost makes me want to quote my suggestions again from more than two-odd years ago last time this came up. I suggested that some of these smaller manufacturers come together to create a ruleset together that was cross-brand-compatible. Nobody (except Vic) wanted to play, and so now it feels like that time of real opportunity, with a weak GW and popular sentiment very against them has largely passed.
It was a good idea then and it still is, I did not get much traction when I asked around a few years back, admittedly I did not hit up Victoria when I saw her a couple years back, I should drop her an email.
Cergorach wrote:First a question, that's a repeat of a fellow poster: What's up with the size difference between the Shadokesh beast handler and these Shadokesh troops? Do they come in different sizes and the beast handlers are the runts of the pack?
Depending on size, they look like a whole lot less complex then the troopers, so should be cheaper to mold/produce. Which should lower the initial buy in for KS, which is a good thing after such a long hiatus. Might also mean faster turn around and faster KS fulfillment.
Rules: No, just no! They cost a ton of money, with very little certainty that they would ever give a return on investment. It also creates an invisible wall around your minis, making them for your game 'only'. While on one hand attracting more customers, that would also scare away a lot of people. Especially when they don't like your rules set. I've seen quite intelligent people react to a cool model "It's a shame that I can't use model X for Y, it looks so cool!" After which I ask, why? "Because it's for game Z." After I point out that they could easily use it for A, B, C, D, etc. You see them pause, you can hear the gears turn, the light bulb going on and "Hmm... That's interesting!". The problem is that you have to point it out.
You might want to consider making the rules Open Gaming Content (OGL),
Maybe make a 'uses' section on the DFG website, where people post their usage of your minis in other games (besides the obvious 40k usages).
All great points in that post, just addressing a couple with this response. The Shadokesh Feral's and Warriors are the same race, so roughly the same size... I am looking hard at a re-scale from their original 9ft height to a 7ft. The reason would to make them more usable for the vast majority of customers and equally as important to decrease their mold space requirements. If I can get that to work out, it might be possible to fit both the Feral's and the Warriors onto a very large mold, reducing the mold costs overall and the shot price, making both far more cost friendly for myself and my customers.
Yeah, rules can and do cut both ways. There is a strong advantage in doing an OGL style with other manufacturers when it comes to the pigeon hole issue... I honestly ask myself if the world needs another set of rules when there are so many not utilized already? Gamers want a framework and stats they are not pulling out of thin air, I doubt gamers want to learn new rules at every turn unless they are amazing. Then we come back to game style, competitive vs beer and pretzel vs button counting detail... Not everyone enjoys the same thing. It seems to me the market has been pushing towards fast set up and fast play games with only a minority in the other camps. Hard to say for sure as I am soooooo out of the loop on current game trends.
Albino Squirrel wrote:Yeah, maybe for the time being, having rules probably aren't worth the investment. Maybe it would be better to have like army lists or stats for your models in already existing games systems. Like Tomorrow's War or Konflict '47. Are there other "generic" sci fi games out there that work for squads of 28mm guys? Just having some suggested stats for other games would at least give some people an excuse to use them in a game. Not sure how legal that is, though...
Not sure if that will get me in hot water and I doubt they would allow me to create competing miniature lines that directly work with their games.
StygianBeach wrote:Are the Eisenkern still fluffwise the goodies, because it is something that bothers me about them. They borrow heavily from the imagry of facism, but (fluffwise) they are not space facists.
I think if there was a rule book, the Eisenkern would need some more irony (like Starship Troopers).
That is correct, Weird War WWI that had a lot of years between the WWI separation and the current game date. Its true that the weapons and such use WWII visual cues but its more to have a recognizable visual cue than any form of political association. I view it as an advancement in style and types of equipment with a future war esthetic mixed with historical inspiration.
Mechanics (e.g. move 6") and stats (i.e. numbers) are not copyrightable, and neither is purely technical writing. You can make a game that plays identically to another game (though I can't imagine why), and it would be OK.
As a competitor releasing an unofficial expansion, that can be a challenge; however, that too is generally legal if you can keep the wording as "unofficial whatnot compatible with XYZ rules" so there's no confusion.
Thing is, even if legal precedent is clear, you can still be sued over nonsense. Now, if you have deep pockets and intend to countersue to recover ALL legal fees for baseless lawsuit, go for it.
Otherwise, either:
a) get a license or
b) make something "better".
Albino Squirrel wrote: Yeah, maybe for the time being, having rules probably aren't worth the investment. Maybe it would be better to have like army lists or stats for your models in already existing games systems. Like Tomorrow's War or Konflict '47. Are there other "generic" sci fi games out there that work for squads of 28mm guys? Just having some suggested stats for other games would at least give some people an excuse to use them in a game. Not sure how legal that is, though...
An Eisenkern basic trooper squad will have 5-10 soldiers, each costing 15 tactical value points.
Each is armed with the such and such assault rifle, anti-personnel grenades and anti-tank grenades.
One trooper must be an NCO. The NCO's Bravery and Hand-to-Hand Attacks are 1 higher than a basic trooper for no additional TVPs.
One trooper may, for 10 TVPs, exchange his assault rifle for a light machine gun.
Such and such assault rifle
Lethality 1/ Range 24/ Power 4
Unending Loyalty: Eisenkern soldiers are exceptionally brave. If they fail a bravery test, they may immediately reroll the die(dice); the rerolled result takes effect.
Now you have stats (players can ignore initiative and ECM----added just to have some obviously not 40k stats) that 40k gamers can use to play their current game.
NoseGoblin wrote: If I can get that to work out, it might be possible to fit both the Feral's and the Worriers onto a very large mold, reducing the mold costs overall and the shot price, making both far more cost friendly for myself and my customers.
Is that a third unit type or are the warriors getting a bit of a new non-combat role?
Because if it's just the two of those I'd suggest the Eisenkern might solve both parts of their Shadokesh problem with a few hearty helpings of anxiolytics and maybe, like, some good herb to go around? (yes yes, getting my coat)
Also good to hear about the scale, had me worried there for a bit.
Albino Squirrel wrote: Yeah, maybe for the time being, having rules probably aren't worth the investment. Maybe it would be better to have like army lists or stats for your models in already existing games systems. Like Tomorrow's War or Konflict '47. Are there other "generic" sci fi games out there that work for squads of 28mm guys? Just having some suggested stats for other games would at least give some people an excuse to use them in a game. Not sure how legal that is, though...
An Eisenkern basic trooper squad will have 5-10 soldiers, each costing 15 tactical value points.
Each is armed with the such and such assault rifle, anti-personnel grenades and anti-tank grenades.
One trooper must be an NCO. The NCO's Bravery and Hand-to-Hand Attacks are 1 higher than a basic trooper for no additional TVPs.
One trooper may, for 10 TVPs, exchange his assault rifle for a light machine gun.
Such and such assault rifle
Lethality 1/ Range 24/ Power 4
Unending Loyalty: Eisenkern soldiers are exceptionally brave. If they fail a bravery test, they may immediately reroll the die(dice); the rerolled result takes effect.
Now you have stats (players can ignore initiative and ECM----added just to have some obviously not 40k stats) that 40k gamers can use to play their current game.
Yeah, having a 1-10 point ranking like the old Transformer file cards wouldn't be a bad idea, and then players could do a simple conversion from there to the system they want.
NoseGoblin wrote: If I can get that to work out, it might be possible to fit both the Feral's and the Worriers onto a very large mold, reducing the mold costs overall and the shot price, making both far more cost friendly for myself and my customers.
Is that a third unit type or are the warriors getting a bit of a new non-combat role?
Because if it's just the two of those I'd suggest the Eisenkern might solve both parts of their Shadokesh problem with a few hearty helpings of anxiolytics and maybe, like, some good herb to go around? (yes yes, getting my coat)
Also good to hear about the scale, had me worried there for a bit.
Heh, yeah its a rough universe and everyone is on anti anxiety meds
.
The website has nothing under news about anything and I haven’t received an email update from the old kickstarters.
