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The number of backers is irrelevant. If he needs to produce 2000 units for a run, then the KS target would have had to be the tooling costs plus the cost of that first run, because if the KS funds then that run needs to be cast, and that's going to cost the same amount regardless of how many units actually 'sold'.

A production run can be as big or as small as you like. It's just that incremental copies cost very little (but still something). If he sized the KS for 1,000 copies, and then made another 1,000 (or more), then he needs to recoup that additional 1,000.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Dude, I don't know what you're trying to get at. KS is specifically to cover tooling or whatever, and it can cover a game or a single model. Simple rulesets can be good, often are. And has been well established, people will buy cool stuff, playable or not. But really, I don't know why you're even replying.

Sorry, didnt mean to be rude. I'm just saying what I think Mark might need to do to get it up and running again in a sustainable fashion. I think the switch to resin for models without rules or that are not suitable for proxy is probably a step backwards if not a dead end.

People will buy cool stuff, which is why the resin leviathans sold before the kickstarter there is a niche within out niche that saw that giant expensive hunk of resin and said "Yeah, I want ONE of those on my self".....but I bet he sold a whole lot more of the Plastic ones as that lowered the price and made them much less intimidating for people to build, and would have possibly sold more if there was a game to use them with. I would say the infantry models and even the vehicles are a different story all together.

When you add functionality to cool stuff....well youve increased your market. People will buy cool stuff depending on what it is, I think we can look at DFG and say yeah some people bought a limited amount of cool stuff thats not playable, but not enough to sustain what he was trying to do which apparently was sustaining a line of hi quality HIPS miniatures, but you need more than just the rule of cool to do that.

If you look around......I dont see anyone making Hi quality HIPS miniatures without a game as a sales vehicle/or specifically being proxies (besides obviously dedicated model companies...but thats a different segment), there is probably a reason for that I don't think its a sustainable business model.

This Industry has come a long way, and we have seen a lot of cool miniatures even with good games backed by big companies disappear of stumble for numerous reasons (looking at you AT-43 and Dust), Its a tough business and like I said I dont know that anything is a silver bullet...but you have to put yourself in a position to succeed to have any real chance.

There was a time when GW was asleep at the wheel and left lots of doors open....they have been aggressively closing them and stepping up their game in so many ways, its going to be even harder now.

So, what would you suggest? That DFG should sell a smattering of Shadokesh units and/or reach an understanding with some rules company (Ganesha?) to promote an official Iron Core rules set (reskin of existing generic rules?) that include lists for all the Eisenkern units, plus some common enemies, like Shadokesh, WW2Russians in Space, and Evil Eisenkern?

 insaniak wrote:

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

That is pretty impressive, but you have to admit that you likely are an outlier. Most people don't buy an army-sized lot of models for the heck of it, and the people who do likely aren't big enough in number to support a company's HIPS line.

They likely are, given that the line in question was launched through Kickstarter, unless the KS funding goal didn't actually cover the production cost.

Wait, I am not sure I follow. You think that DFG's current business model is working? If there were enough people buying armies of plastic models that have no rule support from DFG then why hasn't the range expanded much since the Kickstarter? Why is the move to reduce kits and consolidate parts and even change the medium of production from HIPS to resin? I am pretty sure I am misunderstanding you point. Or are you interpreting when I said "support a company's HIPS line" to only mean funding the molds? Because I meant support as in keeping the line healthy, growing and selling.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
So, what would you suggest? That DFG should sell a smattering of Shadokesh units and/or reach an understanding with some rules company (Ganesha?) to promote an official Iron Core rules set (reskin of existing generic rules?) that include lists for all the Eisenkern units, plus some common enemies, like Shadokesh, WW2Russians in Space, and Evil Eisenkern?

Can't speak for Andrew1975, but yes, that would be better than the current state of affairs in my opinion. Rules drive model sales more than proxying alone.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

Wait, I am not sure I follow. You think that DFG's current business model is working?

No, of course not. What I'm saying is that there was clearly enough of a potential customer base to fund HIPS models, because that's exactly what happened. The fact that DFG didn't capitalise on that to continue selling stuff to that customer base after the Kickstarter is the problem.

Ganesha already has their Flying Lead ruleset, and Andrea made Osprey's Rogue Stars too...

Plus there's 2 Hour Wargames if you need a good generic ruleset...

 Andrew1975 wrote:
Sorry, didnt mean to be rude. I'm just saying what I think Mark might need to do to get it up and running again in a sustainable fashion. I think the switch to resin for models without rules or that are not suitable for proxy is probably a step backwards if not a dead end.

Given that Mark posted a number of detailed business updates providing greater transparency than any other business I've seen, I completely understand and accept his return to resin as the best choice for his company where it is today, and I suspect that niche resin is far more sustainable for DFG than attempting to push plastic at this time. I'm personally less inclined to buy a brick of resin vs HIPS, esp without rules, but I'm sure he factored that sort of thing into his go-forward business model.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 insaniak wrote:
t there was clearly enough of a potential customer base to fund HIPS models, because that's exactly what happened. The fact that DFG didn't capitalise on that to continue selling stuff to that customer base after the Kickstarter is the problem.

I'm pretty sure DFG did its best to continue selling up to the limit of demand.

 insaniak wrote:

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

Wait, I am not sure I follow. You think that DFG's current business model is working?

No, of course not. What I'm saying is that there was clearly enough of a potential customer base to fund HIPS models, because that's exactly what happened. The fact that DFG didn't capitalise on that to continue selling stuff to that customer base after the Kickstarter is the problem.

Ah, okay I understand. I think I agree with JHDD below, though. The people who would buy in big on the plastics did during the KS. What could have pushed sales further would have been a game providing incentive for other people to start making large purchases.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
I'm pretty sure DFG did its best to continue selling up to the limit of demand.

"I'm pretty sure DFG did its best to continue selling up to the limit of demand."

But thats kind of this issue isnt it. He didnt really create a demand that works with his product.

Even if you look at the main page, they still advertise a game, and describe the mechanics a bit. I think Marks talent is wasted on blocks of resin as his HIPS kits are amazing.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

I'm pretty sure DFG did its best to continue selling up to the limit of demand.

I'm sure they did. For whatever reason, though, it clearly didn't work out, which suggests that a different approach was needed.

For my money, the biggest problem they had was simply down to the scale. The troops are out of scale with the games most of us play, which makes them just pretty shelf filler. And the leviathans are too small for a titan and (at least until recently with Forge world's embiggened options) too big for a Knight... I've nearly bought one so many times, but can't justify the expense unless I'm actually going to have something to use it for.

So, yeah, a good game system (and an opposing force) would have helped, but for me, the models being the 'right' size would have helped more.

I bought a lot of DF stuff over the years.

The 28mm Leviathans were originally used as Warhound titans (They fit in scale-wise with my Armorcast Warhounds), but later became Prophyrion Knights.

The 15mm knights became conversion bits for Knights and Dreadknights.

THe infantry became Mechanicus units (the scale isn't much of an issue then)

The truck thing..... well it's pretty. At least until the admech guys get a fitting transport unit with rules. Then it will count as that.

As for the Shadowkesh guys, they count as Ur-guls for my Dark Eldar and the handlers are medusea.


Ideally, I would love to see an actual game. Space Russians and the Shadowkesh would be enough to flesh the game out model-wise. I wouldn't even care if the base rules were a port from some other system. In fact, that might be preferable, as they rules system would all ready be ironed out.

I didnt think the scale was too much of a factor.....scale in 40k is pretty wonky anyway. I mean a catachan is too big for space marine armor if you look at scale.

Insaniak, the 15mm leviathans were recently discounted to $20. For $20, I hope you can find a use for a dread-knight sized robot. That's cheaper than a Commissar!

Wait. Do they make Commissar caps that would fit on a Dreadnaught?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Andrew1975 wrote:
I didnt think the scale was too much of a factor.....scale in 40k is pretty wonky anyway. I mean a catachan is too big for space marine armor if you look at scale.

I assume half the times when someone says the scale is the problem, the scale isn't the problem. There's something, some je-ne-sais-quoi, that puts them off the model, and scale gets the blame.

I agree that scale is a non-issue for 40k. Ever see a RTB-01 Marine? Or a 2E Ork? Yeah.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
I agree that scale is a non-issue for 40k. Ever see a RTB-01 Marine? Or a 2E Ork? Yeah.

The fact that GW doesn't keep to a consistent scale doesn't mean that some of us don't prefer a more or less consistent scale. The DF troops are taller than Space Marines, but with much slimmer proportions, so they don't look like they belong on the same table, in exactly the same way as RT marines don't look like they belong in the same army as the current plastics. YMMV, obviously.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Insaniak, the 15mm leviathans were recently discounted to $20. For $20, I hope you can find a use for a dread-knight sized robot. That's cheaper than a Commissar!

Not really, no. Besides, if I buy the 15mm version, I'll have no reason to continually almost buy the 28mm version...

I very nearly bought one with that recent crazy sale, but the shipping killed it.

Proof of concept plastic Shadowkesh and a Hover Stug have been spotted. Sorry, no link at the moment.

No link?

Huh.

Can you at least let us know where these pics of concept plastics were spotted?

Not seeing the FlugStug, but the proof of concept Shadokesh were posted to the blog:

http://dreamforge-games.blogspot.com/2018/08/platic-crack.html

Couple images from there:



Apparently a different manufacturer from WGF, but one that is not as heavily booked. I am intrigued by the possibility of more DFG plastics to say the least.

From Facebook:

Here is a little something I have been waiting on for a bit over six months…. A proof of concept in plastic from another manufacturer.
I am stoked! The quality looks good, the price is right and the turn around time will be good. So why did it take six months then? Because it was free, a test mold and test shots arranged by my old account manager at WGF John P. Hayden who has struck out on his own. He asked if I could send him the original files to split and use as a non-retail sample to show other clients. I agreed and after some waiting they arrived! This is only two of the five options... As a free test mold we were limited to a single sprue.
No doubt Wai Kee and the old WGF makes incredible plastic, but his shop is always jammed with production, this makes it pretty much impossible for me to look at that as a viable resource for future production or Kickstarter’s. I had my doubts that anyone could get close, but I am reeealllly happy with these shots, and as this opens up the door again I am eyeing another Kickstarter.
I am still pulling together all the costs and if it appears to be a real option, I am more than happy to give it a go. This time would be FAR more focused. One kit at a time, with true costs, the molds and production would need to be funded in full for that ‘episode’? But if it works, another would be on the heals of the last… Ferals? then StuG? then Shadokesh vehicle or walker… then whatever sounds fun.
With this kind of Kickstarter there would be a very focused goal, drive and costs… We are not so much looking at the typical song and dance hype train. The product would make it or not on its own merits, and cover its true costs.
Soooo what do you think?

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1401326060121348/?fb_dtsg_ag=Adwdafa486amvFNUIBKwSlOo0RQVC4iT48lFTTLdeb81jQ%3AAdw4d_DNjK5h3v6__Gq2Wfrc-Hg4lrbM1evILuv3X-7RQw


And the hover tank

So you're telling me there's a chance?

Aww hell yeah, I always liked the Shadowkesh designs, and interesting looking xenos are always a plus for whatever type of tabletop game you're into.

Awesome, it's probably one of the few really interesting potential Xenos designs of late. But hey, were they always supposed to be that big? Either I'm missing something or these are, like 65-70mm tall. I thought they were supposed to be tall-ish 28mm infantry?

Is he referring to the plastics with regard to the Shadowkesh sprue shown? Or with the flugstug being switched from resin to plastic?

Flugstug is still resin, as far as I know. Shadowkesh are 28mm, but their race is just that big.

 cuda1179 wrote:
Flugstug is still resin, as far as I know. Shadowkesh are 28mm, but their race is just that big.

Ah, okay. But how about that limited feral shadokesh with handler? That handler was basically slightly taller than your average 28mm heroic infantryman. Was that the one that's out of scale then?

 Bolognesus wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
Flugstug is still resin, as far as I know. Shadowkesh are 28mm, but their race is just that big.

Ah, okay. But how about that limited feral shadokesh with handler? That handler was basically slightly taller than your average 28mm heroic infantryman. Was that the one that's out of scale then?

I'm not sure. I guess we will see when the final versions are released. Still, I'm anxious to see Shadowkesh vehicles.

 cuda1179 wrote:

 Bolognesus wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
Flugstug is still resin, as far as I know. Shadowkesh are 28mm, but their race is just that big.

Ah, okay. But how about that limited feral shadokesh with handler? That handler was basically slightly taller than your average 28mm heroic infantryman. Was that the one that's out of scale then?

I'm not sure. I guess we will see when the final versions are released. Still, I'm anxious to see Shadowkesh vehicles.

You and me both. I really do hope they get scaled down a bit, the more I look at those big 'uns the more it seems they just lack detail for that size, certainly in today's market. Given how detailed most of the current DFG catalogue is I'm holding out hope

Considering what Mark would have to charge per mini (complexity costs more than size), I would prefer for them to be larger so that I can more easily persuade myself to I feel like I got my money's worth.

Wow, those look great. I don't mind the size. I'm excited for any plastic xenos.

This makes me very excited