Switch Theme:

Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit  [RSS] 

Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/17 19:26:28


Post by: ThePrimordial


I just got the book in the mail and the Transcendent C'tan in the games where I field him he typically puts out 24 S:8 AP:3 shots & 12 S:9 AP:2 hits(via 10"blast) per turn. Given he is also fairly durable and easy to completely deny LOS against, He seems pretty horrifically OP in the typical 3500 point games I play him in. I know people think that OP is in the eyes of the enemy but this seems undeniably & horrifically overpowered.


Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/17 19:37:03


Post by: Hadarac


How many points is he and what is his stat line?


Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/17 19:45:53


Post by: ThePrimordial


S & T9, 6 wounds, 8 attacks, 3 up armor, FNP, 4 up invul, & the board flattening powers I described for a bit over 700 points.


Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/17 19:52:54


Post by: Von Chogg


Sounds alright to me... Hit him with weapons designed for apocalypse and boom. Or poison...


Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/17 20:44:08


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


You are asking if an Apoc unit is OP? I didn't even know if there is such a thing.


Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/17 20:49:26


Post by: Kain


I'm sorry, I can't hear your cries of the C'tan being OP over the sound of my reaver titans obliterating the rest of your army.


Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/17 21:09:40


Post by: xole


 Kain wrote:
I'm sorry, I can't hear your cries of the C'tan being OP over the sound of my reaver titans obliterating the rest of your army.


Reaver? Hell, with only 6 wounds a warhound could pretty much auto kill the C'tan.

Seriously just 6? That's not a typo?(I don't have my book on me)


Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/17 21:16:20


Post by: Goat


Strangely, I think that little guy is classified as a gargantuan creature.


Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/17 21:22:13


Post by: ThePrimordial


 Kain wrote:
I'm sorry, I can't hear your cries of the C'tan being OP over the sound of my reaver titans obliterating the rest of your army.

If the C'tan doesn't kill the Reaver in one turn, which happens to me half the time. The point I'm trying to make is in destructive capability the Transcendent C'tan is equal to the Reaver. Plus I got a Warlord Titan w/ your armies name on it.


Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/17 21:26:50


Post by: Kain


ThePrimordial wrote:
 Kain wrote:
I'm sorry, I can't hear your cries of the C'tan being OP over the sound of my reaver titans obliterating the rest of your army.

If the C'tan doesn't kill the Reaver in one turn, which happens to me half the time. The point I'm trying to make is in destructive capability the Transcendent C'tan is equal to the Reaver. Plus I got a Warlord Titan w/ your armies name on it.

Titan?

You're forgetting a key letter.


Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/17 21:39:23


Post by: Furyou Miko


That would be because the Transcendent C'tan is the Necron's answer to Imperial titans...


Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/17 21:50:18


Post by: curran12


I looked it over and I have no idea what you are bleating on about.


Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/17 22:49:23


Post by: Kain


 Furyou Miko wrote:
That would be because the Transcendent C'tan is the Necron's answer to Imperial titans...

I still want my Medusa V tomb stalker.


Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/17 23:26:18


Post by: ThePrimordial


 Kain wrote:
 Furyou Miko wrote:
That would be because the Transcendent C'tan is the Necron's answer to Imperial titans...

I still want my Medusa V tomb stalker.

So do I. A titan centered on durability and melee would be so hype!!!!


Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/18 00:02:08


Post by: bodazoka


You are using a (max 900 point) FW model in a 3500 point standard 40K game?



Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/18 00:08:45


Post by: ThePrimordial


bodazoka wrote:
You are using a (max 900 point) FW model in a 3500 point standard 40K game?


Yes. Yes I am. Nobody has made such a big deal out of it that they refuse to play against it. Besides that means I'll let them use their Reaver or Reaver equivalent. Whenever you have multiples of these things running around the board then it starts to be a problem.


Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/18 02:45:30


Post by: SoloFalcon1138


you do realize everything in Apocalypse is pretty OP, right?


Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/18 02:54:57


Post by: ThePrimordial


 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
you do realize everything in Apocalypse is pretty OP, right?

I opened up my copy of Apocalypse and saw the hierophant stats w/ the 3++. I've accepted that and don't argue with what you said


Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/18 04:17:20


Post by: SoloFalcon1138


yup, because with 4000+ points and the insane rules, an OP model is going.to be necessary.


Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/18 05:32:01


Post by: Zande4


 Von Chogg wrote:
Sounds alright to me... Hit him with weapons designed for apocalypse and boom. Or poison...


It's a gargantuan creature so poison only wounds it on 6s.

ThePrimordial wrote:
 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
you do realize everything in Apocalypse is pretty OP, right?

I opened up my copy of Apocalypse and saw the hierophant stats w/ the 3++. I've accepted that and don't argue with what you said


What? The Hierophant has 2+/6++ and 5+ FNP.


Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/18 05:56:56


Post by: Peregrine


 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
you do realize everything in Apocalypse is pretty OP, right?


This. Apocalypse is not a game, it's an exercise in seeing who has the most money to spend. It's deliberately unbalanced to get people with a short attention span to spend lots of money on overpowered stuff, and then throw it in the trash and buy different overpowered stuff when their opponent's overpowered stuff kills it.

Instead of playing Apocalypse you should just gather your friends and see who can light the biggest pile of money on fire, and then declare them the winner of the Apocalypse game.


Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/18 06:33:15


Post by: Sasori


 Peregrine wrote:
 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
you do realize everything in Apocalypse is pretty OP, right?


This. Apocalypse is not a game, it's an exercise in seeing who has the most money to spend. It's deliberately unbalanced to get people with a short attention span to spend lots of money on overpowered stuff, and then throw it in the trash and buy different overpowered stuff when their opponent's overpowered stuff kills it.

Instead of playing Apocalypse you should just gather your friends and see who can light the biggest pile of money on fire, and then declare them the winner of the Apocalypse game.



Some people actually enjoy Apocalypse games...


Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/18 06:49:11


Post by: Thokt


I prefer the burning money version.


Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/18 09:17:58


Post by: Kain


 Peregrine wrote:
 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
you do realize everything in Apocalypse is pretty OP, right?


This. Apocalypse is not a game, it's an exercise in seeing who has the most money to spend. It's deliberately unbalanced to get people with a short attention span to spend lots of money on overpowered stuff, and then throw it in the trash and buy different overpowered stuff when their opponent's overpowered stuff kills it.

Instead of playing Apocalypse you should just gather your friends and see who can light the biggest pile of money on fire, and then declare them the winner of the Apocalypse game.

Some people enjoy being rich idiots with more money than sense to buy on models/monuments to our egos.

This is probably why my wife controls the family budget.


Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/18 09:26:13


Post by: Peregrine


 Sasori wrote:
Some people actually enjoy Apocalypse games...


I don't really see how, especially now that GW has done even more to replace what little strategy there was in the old version with more "buy this $100000000000 one-click bundle and remove your opponent's whole army from the table" balance disasters and random event tables full of different ways of removing lots of models without the players ever interacting or making decisions. The only way to make Apocalypse enjoyable is to house rule it so heavily that it barely resembles the game GW created.

And I say this as someone who has spent thousands of dollars on superheavies and more tanks/flyers than I can use in a single non-Apocalypse game.


Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/18 09:33:30


Post by: Kain


 Peregrine wrote:
 Sasori wrote:
Some people actually enjoy Apocalypse games...


I don't really see how, especially now that GW has done even more to replace what little strategy there was in the old version with more "buy this $100000000000 one-click bundle and remove your opponent's whole army from the table" balance disasters and random event tables full of different ways of removing lots of models without the players ever interacting or making decisions. The only way to make Apocalypse enjoyable is to house rule it so heavily that it barely resembles the game GW created.

And I say this as someone who has spent thousands of dollars on superheavies and more tanks/flyers than I can use in a single non-Apocalypse game.

I dunno, maybe it's because I role play in it more than in a typical game of Champions or D&D.

Some people find that habit of mine annoying, some also get into it.


Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/18 09:43:37


Post by: Kangodo


 Peregrine wrote:
I don't really see how, especially now that GW has done even more to replace what little strategy there was in the old version with more "buy this $100000000000 one-click bundle and remove your opponent's whole army from the table" balance disasters and random event tables full of different ways of removing lots of models without the players ever interacting or making decisions. The only way to make Apocalypse enjoyable is to house rule it so heavily that it barely resembles the game GW created.

And I say this as someone who has spent thousands of dollars on superheavies and more tanks/flyers than I can use in a single non-Apocalypse game.

Because people won't buy those bundles?

Apocalypse isn't about seeing who can win a game, it's about playing it with your friends.
I take roughly 6k of my models, my friend takes 6k of his models and we play all day long.
That is Apocalypse.

And if you can't accept that and want to keep trolling every single Apocalypse thread, than maybe you should start thinking about ignoring those threads?


Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/18 10:41:00


Post by: beigeknight


 Peregrine wrote:
 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
you do realize everything in Apocalypse is pretty OP, right?


This. Apocalypse is not a game, it's an exercise in seeing who has the most money to spend. It's deliberately unbalanced to get people with a short attention span to spend lots of money on overpowered stuff, and then throw it in the trash and buy different overpowered stuff when their opponent's overpowered stuff kills it.

Instead of playing Apocalypse you should just gather your friends and see who can light the biggest pile of money on fire, and then declare them the winner of the Apocalypse game.


Learn to scratchbuild?


Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/18 12:54:24


Post by: D6Damager


 Peregrine wrote:


Some people enjoy being rich idiots with more money than sense to buy on models/monuments to our egos. This is probably why my wife controls the family budget



Maybe some of us are educated and therefore have decent jobs in which we can afford our toys without taking away from our families. Don't knock people who play the game because you can't afford it or manage your own finances.

IMO large scale Apocalypse games are really fun (even if a bit time consuming) and there's no other game out there like it in scale and scope.

Back on topic: Apoc is deceptive in that its touted as a "bring everything and play" type system, however lists are still important so that you have the proper OP counters to your opponent's OP stuff. 3,500 points seems a bit low in order to have all your bases covered. I think Apoc works best starting at 5,000+ points a side.


Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/18 14:08:56


Post by: Kain


 D6Damager wrote:
 Peregrine wrote:


Some people enjoy being rich idiots with more money than sense to buy on models/monuments to our egos. This is probably why my wife controls the family budget



Maybe some of us are educated and therefore have decent jobs in which we can afford our toys without taking away from our families. Don't knock people who play the game because you can't afford it or manage your own finances.

IMO large scale Apocalypse games are really fun (even if a bit time consuming) and there's no other game out there like it in scale and scope.

Back on topic: Apoc is deceptive in that its touted as a "bring everything and play" type system, however lists are still important so that you have the proper OP counters to your opponent's OP stuff. 3,500 points seems a bit low in order to have all your bases covered. I think Apoc works best starting at 5,000+ points a side.

I'm making fun of myself because I'm GW's favorite kind of customer, an impulse buyer with money to burn who will keep on coming back again and again.


Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/18 14:26:42


Post by: nosferatu1001


APocalypse gives you a framework in which to play games. You dont have to use the random unnatural disasters if you dont want to.

Playing apocalypse with a narrative structure is still one of the most fun ways to play 40k there is.


Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/18 17:11:38


Post by: Portugal Jones


 Peregrine wrote:

I don't really see how,

Hear that guys? We gotta stop having badwrongfun cause we're making the baby Peregrin cry.


Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/18 17:38:14


Post by: CrashCanuck


Just hit it with D weapons, you don't get any saves against D weapons now and they can strip up to 12 wounds in one shot if you are lucky


Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/18 17:40:45


Post by: Peregrine


 Portugal Jones wrote:
Hear that guys? We gotta stop having badwrongfun cause we're making the baby Peregrin cry.


I guess it's easier to post ridiculous comments about how you're not allowed to have fun than to address my criticism of GW's game design?

 beigeknight wrote:
Learn to scratchbuild?


Oh yes, I forgot the glorious tradition of gluing some cardboard boxes together and calling it a titan so you can bring the most overpowered weapons. It's like someone realized that the only remotely fun thing about Apocalypse is seeing all the awesome models and decided they just had to kill that fun.


Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/18 17:45:59


Post by: CrashCanuck


Yes some people just glue carboard together and call it a titam, some people actually take the time to carve pink foam into the correct shape, paint a decorate it so that it looks as good if not better than some actual production titan.


Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/18 18:03:05


Post by: Peregrine


 CrashCanuck wrote:
Yes some people just glue carboard together and call it a titam, some people actually take the time to carve pink foam into the correct shape, paint a decorate it so that it looks as good if not better than some actual production titan.


Yes, 0.000001% of the time a scratchbuilt model will be legitimate. However, time is money and saying you can spend six months building your own Warhound doesn't really change the fact that Apocalypse without house rules is just a test of who is most dedicated to winning Apocalypse. There's no strategy involved, all you have to do is obtain more of the overpowered stuff than your opponents.

And let's be honest here, the vast majority of "scratchbuilt" models are cheap proxies at best.


Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/18 18:09:03


Post by: King Pariah


 Peregrine wrote:
 CrashCanuck wrote:
Yes some people just glue carboard together and call it a titam, some people actually take the time to carve pink foam into the correct shape, paint a decorate it so that it looks as good if not better than some actual production titan.


Yes, 0.000001% of the time a scratchbuilt model will be legitimate. However, time is money and saying you can spend six months building your own Warhound doesn't really change the fact that Apocalypse without house rules is just a test of who is most dedicated to winning Apocalypse. There's no strategy involved, all you have to do is obtain more of the overpowered stuff than your opponents.

And let's be honest here, the vast majority of "scratchbuilt" models are cheap proxies at best.


Sure. That's totally why a trio of heavy destroyers took out 3 Baneblades over the course of 3 turns, because heavy destroyers are OP and I didn't have to use strategy at all... >.<


Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/18 18:11:07


Post by: Kain


 King Pariah wrote:
 Peregrine wrote:
 CrashCanuck wrote:
Yes some people just glue carboard together and call it a titam, some people actually take the time to carve pink foam into the correct shape, paint a decorate it so that it looks as good if not better than some actual production titan.


Yes, 0.000001% of the time a scratchbuilt model will be legitimate. However, time is money and saying you can spend six months building your own Warhound doesn't really change the fact that Apocalypse without house rules is just a test of who is most dedicated to winning Apocalypse. There's no strategy involved, all you have to do is obtain more of the overpowered stuff than your opponents.

And let's be honest here, the vast majority of "scratchbuilt" models are cheap proxies at best.


Sure. That's totally why a trio of heavy destroyers took out 3 Baneblades over the course of 3 turns, because heavy destroyers are OP and I didn't have to use strategy at all... >.<

Dat bad/good luck.


Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/18 18:13:09


Post by: Peregrine


 King Pariah wrote:
Sure. That's totally why a trio of heavy destroyers took out 3 Baneblades over the course of 3 turns, because heavy destroyers are OP and I didn't have to use strategy at all... >.<


Rolling exceptionally well one time doesn't change the general rule. And that's not strategy, it's just lucky dice.


Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/18 18:14:52


Post by: Kain


The Baneblade is very low key by apocalypse standards for want of any SD weapons, void shields, T8+ or spamming very high strength.

I actually wouldn't have anything against using it in regular 40k.


Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/18 18:19:40


Post by: King Pariah


 Peregrine wrote:
 King Pariah wrote:
Sure. That's totally why a trio of heavy destroyers took out 3 Baneblades over the course of 3 turns, because heavy destroyers are OP and I didn't have to use strategy at all... >.<


Rolling exceptionally well one time doesn't change the general rule. And that's not strategy, it's just lucky dice.


Yeah cuz, flanking, using cover and the mobility of destroyers to get those shots off with minimal fear of being shot at over the course of 3 turns against 3 baneblades is not strategic. Hell, with your logic, there is strategy because everything could be considered mere "luck of the dice"


Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/18 18:26:01


Post by: ImotekhTheStormlord


 King Pariah wrote:
 Peregrine wrote:
 King Pariah wrote:
Sure. That's totally why a trio of heavy destroyers took out 3 Baneblades over the course of 3 turns, because heavy destroyers are OP and I didn't have to use strategy at all... >.<


Rolling exceptionally well one time doesn't change the general rule. And that's not strategy, it's just lucky dice.


Yeah cuz, flanking, using cover and the mobility of destroyers to get those shots off with minimal fear of being shot at over the course of 3 turns against 3 baneblades is not strategic. Hell, with your logic, there is strategy because everything could be considered mere "luck of the dice"


I'm sorry, but on average 3 Heavy Destroyers should barely chip the paintwork of a baneblade, side shot or not.

It was nothing but good rolling.


Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/18 20:21:23


Post by: Kangodo


So, since when does that matter?
You should take 9 Heavy Destroyers if you want to compare them to a Baneblade

 Peregrine wrote:
I guess it's easier to post ridiculous comments about how you're not allowed to have fun than to address my criticism of GW's game design?

I guess people are just tired of all those "Winning Apoc is about spending the most money"-posts people have been making.
Because we all know that people who spent thousands to buy Titans because they absolutely want to win in Apocalypse are usually not invited to Apocalypse-games.


Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/18 21:37:57


Post by: King Pariah


 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
 King Pariah wrote:
 Peregrine wrote:
 King Pariah wrote:
Sure. That's totally why a trio of heavy destroyers took out 3 Baneblades over the course of 3 turns, because heavy destroyers are OP and I didn't have to use strategy at all... >.<


Rolling exceptionally well one time doesn't change the general rule. And that's not strategy, it's just lucky dice.


Yeah cuz, flanking, using cover and the mobility of destroyers to get those shots off with minimal fear of being shot at over the course of 3 turns against 3 baneblades is not strategic. Hell, with your logic, there is strategy because everything could be considered mere "luck of the dice"


I'm sorry, but on average 3 Heavy Destroyers should barely chip the paintwork of a baneblade, side shot or not.

It was nothing but good rolling.


The shots sure were good rolling, but positioning the destroyers in a manner which prevented my opponent from being able to have LOS to them?


Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/18 21:49:15


Post by: The Shadow


 Sasori wrote:
 Peregrine wrote:
 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
you do realize everything in Apocalypse is pretty OP, right?


This. Apocalypse is not a game, it's an exercise in seeing who has the most money to spend. It's deliberately unbalanced to get people with a short attention span to spend lots of money on overpowered stuff, and then throw it in the trash and buy different overpowered stuff when their opponent's overpowered stuff kills it.

Instead of playing Apocalypse you should just gather your friends and see who can light the biggest pile of money on fire, and then declare them the winner of the Apocalypse game.



Some people actually enjoy Apocalypse games...

Peregrine, as per usual, has taken a very extreme view on things. While he's right in the fact that Apocalypse isn't balanced and isn't meant to be, and hence nothing is really "OP". However, the point of the game isn't "burning money" or anything stupid like that. It's about having fun. An alien word to some, including Peregrine, perhaps, but that's what Apocalypse is about. I'm quite convinced it makes GW a large sum of money, but it certainly gives me, and many others, a lot of fun while doing so without actually having spent much money at all. My gaming group have had many a fun Apoc. game just by sticking lots of stuff on the table and adding in a few cool rules, with the only Apoc. model being the odd Stompa or Baneblade.


Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/19 00:56:24


Post by: beigeknight


 Peregrine wrote:


 beigeknight wrote:
Learn to scratchbuild?


Oh yes, I forgot the glorious tradition of gluing some cardboard boxes together and calling it a titan so you can bring the most overpowered weapons. It's like someone realized that the only remotely fun thing about Apocalypse is seeing all the awesome models and decided they just had to kill that fun.




Scratchbuild. Sorry if you have a problem with this.


Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/19 05:28:44


Post by: 2x210


Apocalypse is what got me back into 40k, I have no problem getting blown off the table by a giant collection of models, I'm not sure about the whole burning money thing, if you really think 40k is a "tactical" game and that someone can't spam expensive units in a regular game, well then that's just your like opinion man.


Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/19 05:53:46


Post by: Rippy


That is a beautiful Titan, it nearly brought a tear to my eye


Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/19 06:07:53


Post by: Peregrine


 beigeknight wrote:
Scratchbuild. Sorry if you have a problem with this.


Yeah, that's an awesome model. But let's be honest here, for every awesome scratchbuild like that one there are dozens of D-weapon spam proxies that look like this:



Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/19 06:28:20


Post by: Lotet


when I saw that red Titan I thought that it's not really as bad as I thought it would be, but I suppose considering how much effort it would take to make that is puny compared to painting an Army of equal points, even the Old Necrons. I wouldn't want that blowing apart my dudes... well, maybe 1 game.


Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/19 12:00:56


Post by: beigeknight


 Peregrine wrote:
 beigeknight wrote:
Scratchbuild. Sorry if you have a problem with this.


Yeah, that's an awesome model. But let's be honest here, for every awesome scratchbuild like that one there are dozens of D-weapon spam proxies that look like this:



Honestly I've got scratchbuilds that look way worse than that, but the people I play Apoc games with aren't picky. We just like to blow stuff up.


Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/19 12:31:52


Post by: gutsmaka


I don't know if you realize this, Peregrine, but a lot of Apoc games are not played competitively. usually, they are played at the end of long rounds of campaign games, and are given extra rules so they turn out to be a very narrative conclusion to a half-years worth of gaming. that, or their a game that a bunch of mates play over a weekend whilst having some drinks and watching some movies.
there are reasons why there aren't any Apoc tournies (oh, god, don't let this have started anything).
people don't play to win. if its a one off game among friends, then no one will mind the red warhound, and in a campaign, people will usually put the effort required into the nice warlord.
Just because you see all games as WAAC, dosn't mean others cant try to play for the sake of playing


Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/19 15:52:39


Post by: Ratius


but the people I play Apoc games with aren't picky. We just like to blow stuff up.


Game set and match.

If you dont occasionally like grabbing a massive handful of dice, lashing down some huge pie plates and having Titans duelling each other then sure, thats your perogative but you're probably missing out.




Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/19 16:29:18


Post by: phoenixrisin


 Peregrine wrote:
 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
you do realize everything in Apocalypse is pretty OP, right?


This. Apocalypse is not a game, it's an exercise in seeing who has the most money to spend. It's deliberately unbalanced to get people with a short attention span to spend lots of money on overpowered stuff, and then throw it in the trash and buy different overpowered stuff when their opponent's overpowered stuff kills it.

Instead of playing Apocalypse you should just gather your friends and see who can light the biggest pile of money on fire, and then declare them the winner of the Apocalypse game.


i like you. you get it. apoc is giant waste of time and money.


Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/19 16:30:51


Post by: Ratius


Yeah cause the anti-Apoc reasons cited above are solid and not subjective.
/rolleyes


Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/19 16:31:24


Post by: phoenixrisin


Kangodo wrote:
 Peregrine wrote:
I don't really see how, especially now that GW has done even more to replace what little strategy there was in the old version with more "buy this $100000000000 one-click bundle and remove your opponent's whole army from the table" balance disasters and random event tables full of different ways of removing lots of models without the players ever interacting or making decisions. The only way to make Apocalypse enjoyable is to house rule it so heavily that it barely resembles the game GW created.

And I say this as someone who has spent thousands of dollars on superheavies and more tanks/flyers than I can use in a single non-Apocalypse game.

Because people won't buy those bundles?

Apocalypse isn't about seeing who can win a game, it's about playing it with your friends.
I take roughly 6k of my models, my friend takes 6k of his models and we play all day long.
That is Apocalypse.

And if you can't accept that and want to keep trolling every single Apocalypse thread, than maybe you should start thinking about ignoring those threads?


he has just as much right to voice his opinion as you do. no need to get all sandy about it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 D6Damager wrote:
 Peregrine wrote:


Some people enjoy being rich idiots with more money than sense to buy on models/monuments to our egos. This is probably why my wife controls the family budget



Maybe some of us are educated and therefore have decent jobs in which we can afford our toys without taking away from our families. Don't knock people who play the game because you can't afford it or manage your own finances.

IMO large scale Apocalypse games are really fun (even if a bit time consuming) and there's no other game out there like it in scale and scope.

Back on topic: Apoc is deceptive in that its touted as a "bring everything and play" type system, however lists are still important so that you have the proper OP counters to your opponent's OP stuff. 3,500 points seems a bit low in order to have all your bases covered. I think Apoc works best starting at 5,000+ points a side.


i have a college degree, a full time job, a girlfriend who works at a fortune 500 and 40,000 points of models and i hate apoc. what now?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ratius wrote:
Yeah cause the anti-Apoc reasons cited above are solid and not subjective.
/rolleyes


how are they not? I never claim that GW is robbing people or that the game is overpriced. I don't think it's fun to move 300 models in a game (reason i sold my tyranids), nor do i see any value or fun in the tedium that would results from trying to build any of the "formations." all you have to do is look at the purifier formation and the necron warrior formation to see what an uncreative cash grab the new formations are. 100 necron warriors is now a formation? where is the fun or imagination in that? i'm just going to place $300 in bills on the table if i want to use that formation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 King Pariah wrote:
 Peregrine wrote:
 King Pariah wrote:
Sure. That's totally why a trio of heavy destroyers took out 3 Baneblades over the course of 3 turns, because heavy destroyers are OP and I didn't have to use strategy at all... >.<


Rolling exceptionally well one time doesn't change the general rule. And that's not strategy, it's just lucky dice.


Yeah cuz, flanking, using cover and the mobility of destroyers to get those shots off with minimal fear of being shot at over the course of 3 turns against 3 baneblades is not strategic. Hell, with your logic, there is strategy because everything could be considered mere "luck of the dice"


wow, you must be some kind of tactical genius to blow up a tank with no defenses using the best anti armor codex in the game. can you teach me the ways of the warrior?


Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/19 16:40:35


Post by: Kain


phoenixrisin wrote:
 Peregrine wrote:
 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
you do realize everything in Apocalypse is pretty OP, right?


This. Apocalypse is not a game, it's an exercise in seeing who has the most money to spend. It's deliberately unbalanced to get people with a short attention span to spend lots of money on overpowered stuff, and then throw it in the trash and buy different overpowered stuff when their opponent's overpowered stuff kills it.

Instead of playing Apocalypse you should just gather your friends and see who can light the biggest pile of money on fire, and then declare them the winner of the Apocalypse game.


i like you. you get it. apoc is giant waste of time and money.

"Hi, I'm Mr.Likes to state his opinions as fact, how may I shove my subjective viewpoint down your throat today?"


Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/19 16:47:48


Post by: phoenixrisin


 Kain wrote:
phoenixrisin wrote:
 Peregrine wrote:
 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
you do realize everything in Apocalypse is pretty OP, right?


This. Apocalypse is not a game, it's an exercise in seeing who has the most money to spend. It's deliberately unbalanced to get people with a short attention span to spend lots of money on overpowered stuff, and then throw it in the trash and buy different overpowered stuff when their opponent's overpowered stuff kills it.

Instead of playing Apocalypse you should just gather your friends and see who can light the biggest pile of money on fire, and then declare them the winner of the Apocalypse game.


i like you. you get it. apoc is giant waste of time and money.

"Hi, I'm Mr.Likes to state his opinions as fact, how may I shove my subjective viewpoint down your throat today?"


that's a very well thought out response. i'm just going to place $3000 on the table and pretend like i wasted my time building 200 of the same model just to use some OP rule.

150 fearless blob of warriors that sounds super fun to play with and model. or how about the fact that $700 eldar phantom is the best model in the game now? definitely sounds fun to me! yeah, peregrine is waaaay off base. anyone that doesn't agree with you must be too poor to play.


Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/19 16:48:54


Post by: Ratius


how are they not? I never claim that GW is robbing people or that the game is overpriced. I don't think it's fun to move 300 models in a game (reason i sold my tyranids), nor do i see any value or fun in the tedium that would results from trying to build any of the "formations." all you have to do is look at the purifier formation and the necron warrior formation to see what an uncreative cash grab the new formations are. 100 necron warriors is now a formation? where is the fun or imagination in that? i'm just going to place $300 in bills on the table if i want to use that formation.


My comment was aimed at Peregrines assessment of Apoc which is so subjective its pointless to argue with.

As to the formations they dont have to be used, pick and choose the ones you like, ignore the rest.
I'll reiterate the points made above, if you're selecting armies to outright win Apoc or have some tactical nuances, you're doing it wrong.

Its a supplement to the core 40k rules, no more no less than PS, COD, SH etc.




Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/19 16:49:23


Post by: Kain


phoenixrisin wrote:
 Kain wrote:
phoenixrisin wrote:
 Peregrine wrote:
 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
you do realize everything in Apocalypse is pretty OP, right?


This. Apocalypse is not a game, it's an exercise in seeing who has the most money to spend. It's deliberately unbalanced to get people with a short attention span to spend lots of money on overpowered stuff, and then throw it in the trash and buy different overpowered stuff when their opponent's overpowered stuff kills it.

Instead of playing Apocalypse you should just gather your friends and see who can light the biggest pile of money on fire, and then declare them the winner of the Apocalypse game.


i like you. you get it. apoc is giant waste of time and money.

"Hi, I'm Mr.Likes to state his opinions as fact, how may I shove my subjective viewpoint down your throat today?"


that's a very well thought out response. i'm just going to place $3000 on the table and pretend like i wasted my time building 200 of the same model just to use some OP rule.

150 fearless blob of warriors that sounds super fun to play with and model. or how about the fact that $700 eldar phantom is the best model in the game now? definitely sounds fun to me! yeah, peregrine is waaaay off base. anyone that doesn't agree with you must be too poor to play.




Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/19 16:52:23


Post by: phoenixrisin


a response with a meme or youtube link is the lowest form of conversation. good game, thanks for the win.


Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/19 16:53:58


Post by: Kain


phoenixrisin wrote:
a response with a meme or youtube link is the lowest form of conversation. good game, thanks for the win.

Your statement was so opinionated that there was no objective way to respond. Ergo I informed you that is your opinion, nothing more, nothing less.

Now if you would like to objectively inform me why I must be secretly miserable playing apocalypse for a change rather than continue to try and state your opinion as scientific fact.

Also concession accepted for being unable to argue with that.


Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/19 16:56:23


Post by: phoenixrisin


 Kain wrote:
phoenixrisin wrote:
a response with a meme or youtube link is the lowest form of conversation. good game, thanks for the win.

Your statement was so opinionated that there was no objective way to respond. Ergo I informed you that is your opinion, nothing more, nothing less.

Now if you would like to objectively inform me why I must be secretly miserable playing apocalypse for a change rather than continue to try and state your opinion as scientific fact.


so you enjoy building and painting and moving 200 identically posed and painted models?


Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/19 16:59:47


Post by: Kain


phoenixrisin wrote:
 Kain wrote:
phoenixrisin wrote:
a response with a meme or youtube link is the lowest form of conversation. good game, thanks for the win.

Your statement was so opinionated that there was no objective way to respond. Ergo I informed you that is your opinion, nothing more, nothing less.

Now if you would like to objectively inform me why I must be secretly miserable playing apocalypse for a change rather than continue to try and state your opinion as scientific fact.


so you enjoy building and painting and moving 200 identically posed and painted models?

Yes, does this bother you?

And identically posed? Why given that I often make silly or odd or otherwise different models for the fun of it, I'd say you don't really know me.

Like one of my projects to try and make a reaver titan do the Gangnam style dance (yes I know I'm nearly a year late, sue me).

As you can tell, I don't take the game particularly seriously.

Not when I have a Hive Tyrant swinging around an Eldar guardian instead of a bonesword with another eldar guardian posed to look terrified.

Of course I've been unanimously voted "bugnut crazy" by everyone I've ever met ever.


Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/19 17:10:11


Post by: Kangodo


 Kain wrote:
Not when I have a Hive Tyrant swinging around an Eldar guardian instead of a bonesword with another eldar guardian posed to look terrified.

I demand a picture of this model

phoenixrisin wrote:
he has just as much right to voice his opinion as you do. no need to get all sandy about it.

He can make a thread called "I don't like the new Apocalypse" and I will stay as far away from it as possible.
There's no need to start the "D-weapons are OP and Apoc is just about spending the most money" in every thread that is connected to Apoc.

I don't think it's fun to move 300 models in a game (reason i sold my tyranids),
Solution: Don't play Apocalypse.
nor do i see any value or fun in the tedium that would results from trying to build any of the "formations.
Solution: Don't play Apocalypse.
all you have to do is look at the purifier formation and the necron warrior formation to see what an uncreative cash grab the new formations are. 100 necron warriors is now a formation? where is the fun or imagination in that? i'm just going to place $300 in bills on the table if i want to use that formation.
Solution: Don't play Apocalypse.

See how easy that is?

Can we now get back to discussing the Transcendent C'tan?
so you enjoy building and painting and moving 200 identically posed and painted models?

I already own 60 painted Necron Warriors, so yeah.. I do.
That's why I bought the Apocalypse-book and the Tesseract Vault: Because I love Apocalypse.


Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/19 17:12:42


Post by: Ratius


Havent picked up the new Apoc book yet but the Ctan is putting out more Firepower than a Hierophant, is that correct?


Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/19 17:15:31


Post by: Kangodo


 Ratius wrote:
Havent picked up the new Apoc book yet but the Ctan is putting out more Firepower than a Hierophant, is that correct?

Well.. yeah
The Bio-Titan has two Bio-cannons while the C'tan has Godlike shooting powers.


Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/19 17:20:07


Post by: Kain


 Ratius wrote:
Havent picked up the new Apoc book yet but the Ctan is putting out more Firepower than a Hierophant, is that correct?

One is the voltron'd together fragments of solar system destroying gods.

One is an extra from a godzilla flick.


Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/19 17:20:15


Post by: phoenixrisin


 Kain wrote:
phoenixrisin wrote:
 Kain wrote:
phoenixrisin wrote:
a response with a meme or youtube link is the lowest form of conversation. good game, thanks for the win.

Your statement was so opinionated that there was no objective way to respond. Ergo I informed you that is your opinion, nothing more, nothing less.

Now if you would like to objectively inform me why I must be secretly miserable playing apocalypse for a change rather than continue to try and state your opinion as scientific fact.


so you enjoy building and painting and moving 200 identically posed and painted models?

Yes, does this bother you?

And identically posed? Why given that I often make silly or odd or otherwise different models for the fun of it, I'd say you don't really know me.

Like one of my projects to try and make a reaver titan do the Gangnam style dance (yes I know I'm nearly a year late, sue me).

As you can tell, I don't take the game particularly seriously.

Not when I have a Hive Tyrant swinging around an Eldar guardian instead of a bonesword with another eldar guardian posed to look terrified.

Of course I've been unanimously voted "bugnut crazy" by everyone I've ever met ever.


why would that bother me? are you some sort of narcissist? just because i have an opinion doesn't mean that you wasting your money bothers me. you need help, bro. the world doesn't revolve around you.

and yeah, i think a titan dancing is lame as hell. i've never seen a mini that made me so much as chuckle. comedy is best left to people to understand it. spending 40 hours to model and paint something to conjure a chuckle from a passerby doesn't sound fun at all. have fun playing apoc. i enjoy games of around 2000-3000 using the base rules. you mad?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kangodo wrote:

all you have to do is look at the purifier formation and the necron warrior formation to see what an uncreative cash grab the new formations are. 100 necron warriors is now a formation? where is the fun or imagination in that? i'm just going to place $300 in bills on the table if i want to use that formation.
Solution: Don't play Apocalypse.

See how easy that is?

Can we now get back to discussing the Transcendent C'tan?
so you enjoy building and painting and moving 200 identically posed and painted models?

I already own 60 painted Necron Warriors, so yeah.. I do.
That's why I bought the Apocalypse-book and the Tesseract Vault: Because I love Apocalypse.


200-60=140 models. get to work. you're wasting time with your silly post. go ahead and throw that $400 at gw and get to cutting and trimming!

guess what, i'm buying the tesseract vault too. i'm going to paint it and place it on my display shelf. why? because i like cool models.


Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/19 17:28:19


Post by: Kain


I play normal games and enjoy them too. Primarily campaign games as me and those I play with prefer making storylines and essentially playing D&D campaigns with more miniatures, but normal games nontheless. Apoc is a nice way for us to have big clashes.

Silly models is a way for me and my wife to make something different and unique and utilize kits in way GW probably never intended for our personal amusement and those of our friends.

But I honestly prefer ROLE play to ROLL play.

I also have a Samus miniature using 1d4chan's rules for her but I've always liked crossovers.


Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/19 17:31:46


Post by: phoenixrisin


 Kain wrote:
I play normal games and enjoy them too. Primarily campaign games as me and those I play with prefer making storylines and essentially playing D&D campaigns with more miniatures, but normal games nontheless. Apoc is a nice way for us to have big clashes.

Silly models is a way for me and my wife to make something different and unique and utilize kits in way GW probably never intended for our personal amusement and those of our friends.

But I honestly prefer ROLE play to ROLL play.


cool. i like to use my wit to amuse me and my friends. you like to use hours and hours of modeling time to get chuckles. maybe that's why you like apoc and i don't. i have too many interests and passions in life to spend 100% of my time on a subset of rules for a tabletop game.


Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/19 17:36:31


Post by: Kain


phoenixrisin wrote:
 Kain wrote:
I play normal games and enjoy them too. Primarily campaign games as me and those I play with prefer making storylines and essentially playing D&D campaigns with more miniatures, but normal games nontheless. Apoc is a nice way for us to have big clashes.

Silly models is a way for me and my wife to make something different and unique and utilize kits in way GW probably never intended for our personal amusement and those of our friends.

But I honestly prefer ROLE play to ROLL play.


cool. i like to use my wit to amuse me and my friends. you like to use hours and hours of modeling time to get chuckles. maybe that's why you like apoc and i don't. i have too many interests and passions in life to spend 100% of my time on a subset of rules for a tabletop game.

My list of interests is pretty long. Let's see what fandoms I'm a part of in no particular order of favoritism.

Homestuck
D&D
Champions
City of Heroes (until they shut it down >.<
Metroid
Command and Conquer
Universe At War
Star Wars
Starcraft
Doctor Who
Superman
Batman
Spiderman
The Hulk
Thor
Iron man
The Avengers
Justice League
Mario brothers.
Warhammer 40k
Paleontology
Writing novels for myself to pass the time
Role playing
My wife of course
Halo
Mass Effect
Order of the stick
Godzilla
Transformers
Smash brothers
Advance wars
Company of Heroes
Civilization
Galactic Civilizations
Sins of a Solar Empire
Supreme Commander
Military history
Monty Python
Internet memes and culture
Red vs Blue
Terminator.
Alpha Centauri
Want to get into RWBY
Fallout
The Elder Scrolls
Want to get into Pacific Rim


Probably more stuff I'm forgetting.


Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/19 17:47:00


Post by: phoenixrisin


yeah, and all of that is nerd culture. which is fine, but i'm little more well rounded than that. a lot of my interests involve leaving the house and being outside.

back on topic...a few squads of long fangs will take care of that c'tan


Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/19 19:06:11


Post by: 2x210


phoenixrisin wrote:
yeah, and all of that is nerd culture. which is fine, but i'm little more well rounded than that. a lot of my interests involve leaving the house and being outside.

back on topic...a few squads of long fangs will take care of that c'tan


I gotta ask do you wear a lot a cut off tees and shout "NERDS!!!" at the top of your lungs? Nerd Culture lol, you are on a 40k Forum playboy I'm not sure implying some other guy doesn't do anything because he does "nerdy" things and you go "outside" means anything when you have the spare time to argue with people on a forum dedicated to playing with little toy men, unless of course you are currently replying while wakeboarding with your brosephs......

Anyway, how big is that C-Tan he looks tiny, I get why he is a monstrous creature what with being a god and all that, but it just annoys me I wish they would have made him twice the size of a Deamon Prince at least, imagine the pose but way larger that would be pretty sick.


Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/19 19:08:18


Post by: Kain


2x210 wrote:
phoenixrisin wrote:
yeah, and all of that is nerd culture. which is fine, but i'm little more well rounded than that. a lot of my interests involve leaving the house and being outside.

back on topic...a few squads of long fangs will take care of that c'tan


I gotta ask do you wear a lot a cut off tees and shout "NERDS!!!" at the top of your lungs? Nerd Culture lol, you are on a 40k Forum playboy I'm not sure implying some other guy doesn't do anything because he does "nerdy" things and you go "outside" means anything when you have the spare time to argue with people on a forum dedicated to playing with little toy men, unless of course you are currently replying while wakeboarding with your brosephs......

Anyway, how big is that C-Tan he looks tiny, I get why he is a monstrous creature what with being a god and all that, but it just annoys me I wish they would have made him twice the size of a Deamon Prince at least, imagine the pose but way larger that would be pretty sick.

Which makes me want to pick up a project and scratch build a bigger C'tan.

Although since the Transcendent is so small my "Void dragon" (actually just a fairly ugly frankenstein monstrosity made from various transformers and green stuff when I was still in gradeschool) is probably going to need even more impressive homebrew rules to go with it.

Sigh.

As for Nerdom, I am the quintessential skinny uberdork.


Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/19 19:10:30


Post by: Furyou Miko


phoenixrisin wrote:
yeah, and all of that is nerd culture. which is fine, but i'm little more well rounded than that. a lot of my interests involve leaving the house and being outside.

back on topic...a few squads of long fangs will take care of that c'tan


Ugh, you weirdo. Outside is hot and bright and painful. My cave is a much nicer place to spend my time, thank you.

That said, indoor archery has a lot to be said for it.

The fact is that spending money is a huge part of this hobby, and like the other three key parts (painting, modelling and gaming) it isn't for everyone.

Also, I'm now amusing myself with the thought of putting 200 metal Necron Warriors down on the table as part of that formation and watching the board list towards me. ^^;

The C'tan suffers from the same thing as every other big monster. Point enough krak missiles at it and it dies.


Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/19 19:27:51


Post by: Psienesis


phoenixrisin wrote:
yeah, and all of that is nerd culture. which is fine, but i'm little more well rounded than that. a lot of my interests involve leaving the house and being outside.

back on topic...a few squads of long fangs will take care of that c'tan


Competitive Xbox and Enduro-DBing don't count as being "well rounded".


Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/19 19:54:28


Post by: phoenixrisin


2x210 wrote:
phoenixrisin wrote:
yeah, and all of that is nerd culture. which is fine, but i'm little more well rounded than that. a lot of my interests involve leaving the house and being outside.

back on topic...a few squads of long fangs will take care of that c'tan


I gotta ask do you wear a lot a cut off tees and shout "NERDS!!!" at the top of your lungs? Nerd Culture lol, you are on a 40k Forum playboy I'm not sure implying some other guy doesn't do anything because he does "nerdy" things and you go "outside" means anything when you have the spare time to argue with people on a forum dedicated to playing with little toy men, unless of course you are currently replying while wakeboarding with your brosephs......

Anyway, how big is that C-Tan he looks tiny, I get why he is a monstrous creature what with being a god and all that, but it just annoys me I wish they would have made him twice the size of a Deamon Prince at least, imagine the pose but way larger that would be pretty sick.


just because i like warhammer doesn't mean all of my hobbies center around escapism. i clearly struck a nerve. maybe you should try getting some sun every once in awhile. you know, maybe get a friend and ride your bike around, or even go socialize with some people in the real world.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Psienesis wrote:
phoenixrisin wrote:
yeah, and all of that is nerd culture. which is fine, but i'm little more well rounded than that. a lot of my interests involve leaving the house and being outside.

back on topic...a few squads of long fangs will take care of that c'tan


Competitive Xbox and Enduro-DBing don't count as being "well rounded".


HAHA! man, the butthurt is strong with you.

1) i don't own an x-box, console peasant.

2) you seem really mad that i used the words "nerd culture." bring back some unpleasant high school memories? get the sand out, girl.


Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/19 20:20:43


Post by: Alpharius


Wow.

General warning time!

Rule #1:

Dakka Dakka
wrote:
Rule 1: Be Polite
This seems obvious, however many folks can sometimes forget that common courtesy goes a long way to lending respect to both you and your opinions. Just because you don't see the other users' faces doesn't mean they don't have feelings and won't be hurt by rude comments or offensive images. When you see something that you find silly, rude or insulting first assume that perhaps there is more to it than you initially thought. Look at it again, keeping in mind that tone and inflection is difficult to convey in a visual format. It may be that the person is attempting a joke or is exaggerating on purpose. It is best to politely request clarification before accusing someone being ignorant, a liar, or worse.

If after clarification you still disagree with the person then politely outline your points. Try to avoid name-calling or even implying insults wherever possible. These tactics generally only inflame a situation and lead to what are known as "Flame Wars." Whenever a flame war starts it usually ruins a perfectly good discussion. Others will lose interest in the thread and the site in general if this kind of interchange becomes a common occurrence.

Please remember that posting and reading online is a visual format and as such the spelling, grammar and look of your posts is the only way others understand what you are saying. Therefore, in order to be polite, all users are expected to make an effort to use proper spelling, grammar and punctuation and should refrain from using internet shorthand or other distracting methods of writing, such as writing a post completely bolded, with capital letters, in a strange color, etc.

It also should go without saying that swearing, profanity, sexual references, etc, are strictly forbidden, including all images that are posted on or uploaded to our site. Remember that we have users of all ages and that Dakka should be a welcoming place for everyone to enjoy.


http://www.dakkadakka.com/core/forum_rules.jsp


Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/19 20:22:50


Post by: phoenixrisin


 Alpharius wrote:
Wow.

General warning time!

Rule #1:

Dakka Dakka
wrote:
Rule 1: Be Polite
This seems obvious, however many folks can sometimes forget that common courtesy goes a long way to lending respect to both you and your opinions. Just because you don't see the other users' faces doesn't mean they don't have feelings and won't be hurt by rude comments or offensive images. When you see something that you find silly, rude or insulting first assume that perhaps there is more to it than you initially thought. Look at it again, keeping in mind that tone and inflection is difficult to convey in a visual format. It may be that the person is attempting a joke or is exaggerating on purpose. It is best to politely request clarification before accusing someone being ignorant, a liar, or worse.

If after clarification you still disagree with the person then politely outline your points. Try to avoid name-calling or even implying insults wherever possible. These tactics generally only inflame a situation and lead to what are known as "Flame Wars." Whenever a flame war starts it usually ruins a perfectly good discussion. Others will lose interest in the thread and the site in general if this kind of interchange becomes a common occurrence.

Please remember that posting and reading online is a visual format and as such the spelling, grammar and look of your posts is the only way others understand what you are saying. Therefore, in order to be polite, all users are expected to make an effort to use proper spelling, grammar and punctuation and should refrain from using internet shorthand or other distracting methods of writing, such as writing a post completely bolded, with capital letters, in a strange color, etc.

It also should go without saying that swearing, profanity, sexual references, etc, are strictly forbidden, including all images that are posted on or uploaded to our site. Remember that we have users of all ages and that Dakka should be a welcoming place for everyone to enjoy.


http://www.dakkadakka.com/core/forum_rules.jsp


i was trying to remain cordial, but the guy called me a douchebag and other guy basically called me a redneck dudebro.

i mean, i like comic books, p&p rpgs, and video games too, but i think we all agree that they fall under the umbrella of nerd culture.


Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/19 20:24:59


Post by: Alpharius


The ONLY 'response' you really should use to something you think breaks the rules of this site it to report it using the "Moderator Alert" button (Yellow Triangle with an Exclamation Point in it).


Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/19 20:26:10


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


D Weapons on the C'tan. In apoc there should be plenty.


Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/19 20:27:40


Post by: phoenixrisin


 Alpharius wrote:
The ONLY 'response' you really should use to something you think breaks the rules of this site it to report it using the "Moderator Alert" button (Yellow Triangle with an Exclamation Point in it).

got it.


Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/19 20:55:13


Post by: ThePrimordial


I have a lot of nerdy interests but I also adore Football and Boxing. Anyway Kain is probably one of the friendliest people on the forum & you were pretty offensive.
Back on topic my point is that the C'tan seems to have a lot of relatively cheap Dakka & is durable for its 700 point tag considering the high BS
Dakka.


Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/19 21:09:31


Post by: phoenixrisin


ThePrimordial wrote:
I have a lot of nerdy interests but I also adore Football and Boxing. Anyway Kain is probably one of the friendliest people on the forum & you were pretty offensive.
Back on topic my point is that the C'tan seems to have a lot of relatively cheap Dakka & is durable for its 700 point tag considering the high BS
Dakka.


nerd is not offensive, and my post directed at Kain was not the post the mod was referring to.


Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/19 21:10:25


Post by: Kain


Also it is my experience that you can kill or cripple pretty much any superheavy with a vendetta squadron loaded with meltavets (often just one will do).

Especially Titans as all the guns you'd want on them are blasts and therefore useless against fliers and their minimum range makes for a bad day against the vets.

This C'tan seems like it'd suffer the same problems although I will say that a 4++ on a model with that many high toughness wounds is pretty solid.


Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/19 21:18:51


Post by: Peregrine


 beigeknight wrote:
Honestly I've got scratchbuilds that look way worse than that, but the people I play Apoc games with aren't picky. We just like to blow stuff up.


Honestly what's the point then? The only thing about Apocalypse that is even remotely appealing is the scene of a huge battle with all those awesome centerpiece models you can't use anywhere else. If you're just going to play with a bunch of "scratchbuilds" and throw piles of dice around it's just pointless. You don't have anything cool to look at, and you certainly aren't playing a game. You might as well just throw some empty pizza boxes on the table, make some gun noises, and then throw the trash away.

gutsmaka wrote:
I don't know if you realize this, Peregrine, but a lot of Apoc games are not played competitively.


That's really low standards. Why should you be content for GW to publish a broken expansion that can only be "enjoyed" if you get drunk and don't care about it too much? Why shouldn't you expect that they produce a game that also works well when played competitively?

if its a one off game among friends, then no one will mind the red warhound


I disagree. Even in the most casual game between friends I don't want that kind of thing on the table. If you want a Warhound either buy (and paint) the real one, or make a scratchbuilt one that looks at least as good. Throwing together a 15 minute proxy just to make your army more powerful is unacceptable.

 Ratius wrote:
I'll reiterate the points made above, if you're selecting armies to outright win Apoc or have some tactical nuances, you're doing it wrong.


IOW, don't play the game, just put models on the table, make some gun noises, and take the models off the table. If you aren't supposed to make any decisions about tactics or army construction then how is this even a game?

Its a supplement to the core 40k rules, no more no less than PS, COD, SH etc.


And those expansions CAN be played competitively, with armies designed to win them and lots of tactics. Compared to those expansions Apocalypse is a joke.


Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/19 21:29:28


Post by: ImotekhTheStormlord


phoenixrisin wrote:


why would that bother me? are you some sort of narcissist? just because i have an opinion doesn't mean that you wasting your money bothers me. you need help, bro. the world doesn't revolve around you.

and yeah, i think a titan dancing is lame as hell. i've never seen a mini that made me so much as chuckle. comedy is best left to people to understand it. spending 40 hours to model and paint something to conjure a chuckle from a passerby doesn't sound fun at all. have fun playing apoc. i enjoy games of around 2000-3000 using the base rules. you mad?



I'm sorry, but I can't let this one pass. This is rather hypocritical to say the least. His " does that bother you?" is responded to by a tirade of personal attacks and accusations.

Then in the next paragraph you proceed to say "u mad?", which has the EXACT same meaning as " does that bother you?". His statement seems to imply rampant narcissism to you, yet you do the exact same thing a few sentences later.


Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/19 21:29:35


Post by: ZebioLizard2


 Peregrine wrote:
 beigeknight wrote:
Honestly I've got scratchbuilds that look way worse than that, but the people I play Apoc games with aren't picky. We just like to blow stuff up.


Honestly what's the point then? The only thing about Apocalypse that is even remotely appealing is the scene of a huge battle with all those awesome centerpiece models you can't use anywhere else. If you're just going to play with a bunch of "scratchbuilds" and throw piles of dice around it's just pointless. You don't have anything cool to look at, and you certainly aren't playing a game. You might as well just throw some empty pizza boxes on the table, make some gun noises, and then throw the trash away.

gutsmaka wrote:
I don't know if you realize this, Peregrine, but a lot of Apoc games are not played competitively.


That's really low standards. Why should you be content for GW to publish a broken expansion that can only be "enjoyed" if you get drunk and don't care about it too much? Why shouldn't you expect that they produce a game that also works well when played competitively?

if its a one off game among friends, then no one will mind the red warhound


I disagree. Even in the most casual game between friends I don't want that kind of thing on the table. If you want a Warhound either buy (and paint) the real one, or make a scratchbuilt one that looks at least as good. Throwing together a 15 minute proxy just to make your army more powerful is unacceptable.

 Ratius wrote:
I'll reiterate the points made above, if you're selecting armies to outright win Apoc or have some tactical nuances, you're doing it wrong.


IOW, don't play the game, just put models on the table, make some gun noises, and take the models off the table. If you aren't supposed to make any decisions about tactics or army construction then how is this even a game?

Its a supplement to the core 40k rules, no more no less than PS, COD, SH etc.


And those expansions CAN be played competitively, with armies designed to win them and lots of tactics. Compared to those expansions Apocalypse is a joke.


I honestly have to ask, why do you even come to these posts considering all you do is hate on apocalypse each chance you get? You don't add anything constructive at all to a conversation and all you're doing is generally insulting anyone who actually likes apocalypse.

You hate Apocalypse, We Get It..Each Time you post in these.


Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/19 21:32:57


Post by: ImotekhTheStormlord


 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
 Peregrine wrote:
 beigeknight wrote:
Honestly I've got scratchbuilds that look way worse than that, but the people I play Apoc games with aren't picky. We just like to blow stuff up.


Honestly what's the point then? The only thing about Apocalypse that is even remotely appealing is the scene of a huge battle with all those awesome centerpiece models you can't use anywhere else. If you're just going to play with a bunch of "scratchbuilds" and throw piles of dice around it's just pointless. You don't have anything cool to look at, and you certainly aren't playing a game. You might as well just throw some empty pizza boxes on the table, make some gun noises, and then throw the trash away.

gutsmaka wrote:
I don't know if you realize this, Peregrine, but a lot of Apoc games are not played competitively.


That's really low standards. Why should you be content for GW to publish a broken expansion that can only be "enjoyed" if you get drunk and don't care about it too much? Why shouldn't you expect that they produce a game that also works well when played competitively?

if its a one off game among friends, then no one will mind the red warhound


I disagree. Even in the most casual game between friends I don't want that kind of thing on the table. If you want a Warhound either buy (and paint) the real one, or make a scratchbuilt one that looks at least as good. Throwing together a 15 minute proxy just to make your army more powerful is unacceptable.

 Ratius wrote:
I'll reiterate the points made above, if you're selecting armies to outright win Apoc or have some tactical nuances, you're doing it wrong.


IOW, don't play the game, just put models on the table, make some gun noises, and take the models off the table. If you aren't supposed to make any decisions about tactics or army construction then how is this even a game?

Its a supplement to the core 40k rules, no more no less than PS, COD, SH etc.


And those expansions CAN be played competitively, with armies designed to win them and lots of tactics. Compared to those expansions Apocalypse is a joke.


I honestly have to ask, why do you even come to these posts considering all you do is hate on apocalypse each chance you get? You don't add anything constructive at all to a conversation and all you're doing is generally insulting anyone who actually likes apocalypse.

You hate Apocalypse, We Get It..Each Time you post in these.


Its not enough that he dislikes it, but he feels the need to voice his sagacious opinion at every turn, because ALL MUST BELIEVE. I personally do not care for apocalypse, but I respect that some like the experience.

On topic, I dont think the C'tan is OP, not when compared to other models at the same point range.


Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/19 21:50:12


Post by: Peregrine


 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
I honestly have to ask, why do you even come to these posts considering all you do is hate on apocalypse each chance you get?


So the only acceptable "discussion" is agreeing with what everyone wants to hear? Praise GW or STFU?

You don't add anything constructive at all to a conversation and all you're doing is generally insulting anyone who actually likes apocalypse.


Disagreeing with is not the same thing as insulting. If you have to take it personally when someone criticizes a game you like maybe you shouldn't participate in discussion forums?


Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/19 22:02:22


Post by: ImotekhTheStormlord


 Peregrine wrote:
 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
I honestly have to ask, why do you even come to these posts considering all you do is hate on apocalypse each chance you get?


So the only acceptable "discussion" is agreeing with what everyone wants to hear? Praise GW or STFU?

You don't add anything constructive at all to a conversation and all you're doing is generally insulting anyone who actually likes apocalypse.


Disagreeing with is not the same thing as insulting. If you have to take it personally when someone criticizes a game you like maybe you shouldn't participate in discussion forums?


No. You have contributed NOTHING to this discussion. This discussion is about the C'tan. You have been dismissing apocalypse, which is not the topic at hand.


Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/19 22:03:59


Post by: happygolucky


Wow I came on this thread to see what the Transcendent C'tan, was all about.. Instead I find a completely different topic (and the thread completely derailed) on whether people like Apoc or not...

...Wow I really thought I was going to learn a bit on the Space Jockey C'tan... I guess not then...


Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/19 22:04:13


Post by: Mannahnin


Disagreeing is not inherently objectionable. Derailing threads to vent negative opinions about a given game or sub-game can be off-topic, spammy, or trolling, depending on how its done and the content and context of the posts. Please try to give the conversation cordial and on-topic, folks.


Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/19 22:09:33


Post by: Kangodo


My biggest dislike on the C'tan is that I need to pay 125 Euro to field such a small model.

Ooh yeah, I get a free Suckalisk with it.
I really like how the fluff tells us it's a near indestructible object when on the same page it shows it has AV12, Skimmer and 6HP.
"Yeah, it's indestructible unless your opponent looks really hard at it. That is its only weakness!"

And now back on the C'tan:
One of my fears is that this model gets illegally recasted for 30 dollar each.
Can you imagine entering an Apocalypse game with 10 of those models on the board?

 Mannahnin wrote:
Disagreeing is not inherently objectionable. Derailing threads to vent negative opinions about a given game or sub-game can be off-topic, spammy, or trolling, depending on how its done and the content and context of the posts. Please try to give the conversation cordial and on-topic, folks.

Thank you, that was exactly my point.
I don't want to censorize anyone, I just think they should open a separate thread for it.


Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/20 12:21:50


Post by: Ratius


One is the voltron'd together fragments of solar system destroying gods.

One is an extra from a godzilla flick.


Fair enough, havent read the Ctans background fluff yet.
I think Im trying to say though, in Apoc, races are supposed to bring (and have available) the biggest and nastiest units possibly. Are there Nid formations that could wreck him?
If the Necron "big guy" significantly outlasses the Nid one, what did the Nids get as extra?
How do other races "big guys" compare to the Ctan (IG titans aside as discussed).


Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/21 11:00:04


Post by: Furyou Miko


Having fielded a Warhound with two double-barrelled turbo-laser destroyers for 750 points.... no, the C'tan is not OP in an apocalypse context.


Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/21 14:00:26


Post by: Eyjio


 Peregrine wrote:

gutsmaka wrote:
I don't know if you realize this, Peregrine, but a lot of Apoc games are not played competitively.


That's really low standards. Why should you be content for GW to publish a broken expansion that can only be "enjoyed" if you get drunk and don't care about it too much? Why shouldn't you expect that they produce a game that also works well when played competitively?

 Ratius wrote:
I'll reiterate the points made above, if you're selecting armies to outright win Apoc or have some tactical nuances, you're doing it wrong.


IOW, don't play the game, just put models on the table, make some gun noises, and take the models off the table. If you aren't supposed to make any decisions about tactics or army construction then how is this even a game?


In the same way that D&D is a game. Something doesn't need to be finely tuned and competitive to make it fun to play. What it needs to do is create an enjoyable atmosphere which, from the games I've had, it does well. Do you think Roulette isn't a game, even though it's mostly luck? How about Whist? Monopoly? Here's the thing - you DO make tough choices in Apoc and you DO need to think about tactics - the side that doesn't will lose almost every single time because they'll be facing organised, coherent opposition. Had you played it, you'd almost certainly know this.

I have no issue with people disliking Apoc. It's fine. You can tell yourselves it's a waste of money too - also fine. That doesn't mean it isn't fun for a lot of people who enjoy playing it. Money won't win you an Apocalypse game - if you take 9 Warhounds with turbo laser destructors, you will almost certainly lose to almost anyone who's reasonably prepared (or, you know, brings a single Stormraven/Vendetta/Thunderhawk/Manta/Harridan etc). Let's not pretend there's some mythical win button - there never has been. Hell, the most powerful thing for the points in old Apoc was the Doomsday device which you HAD to scratchbuild and the rules were free online. The biggest Titans? Also scratchbuilt. No, Apoc is a showcase. It's either a way to show off your whole army or it's an intense ending to a campaign. That's why it was designed. If you think bringing formation XY will win on its own, you've clearly never played. Most games are won by tiny groups of soldiers because nothing else remains. I find it fantastic and you have no authority over what I enjoy just because you don't based off irrational hatred/perceived money grabbing. There's really nothing else that can be said with regards to it - if you dislike it and think it's a cynical ploy to get your money... don't spend your money on it. Do not tell people they're having fun wrong just because you're annoyed. I'm very sorry that you don't see the enjoyment in hanging around with friends for an entire day playing a game.


Back on topic:

As for the C'tan, it's nowhere near unbalanced. It's just barely tougher than a Wraithknight but it costs 3 times as much. It's a gargantuan creature that outputs the most shooting for the points of any other creature. Heck, Sky of Falling Stars is a better version of a Reaver's Apocalypse missile launcher with less range. Personally I'd give it Seismic Shockwave, Wave of Withering and Antimatter Meteor at a cost of 750 points.

Let me just justify those choices.
For abilities, Transliminal Stride sounds fun (and if you call an all out attack it's a 54" line of hilarity) but not being able to charge afterwards really limits how long you'll live. Storm of Heavenly Fire is garbage IMO - you can't be closer than 1" to your enemy in movement, so at best it'll hit maybe 3 enemies and at worst you'll nuke your own guys. No, the reason I'd take Seismic Shockwave is because the chance in combat to put down a large blast of "remove from play" is amazing and even normally, on the charge that's hammer of wrath+9 S9 AP2 attacks+d3 large blasts.

Here's my opinions on the shooting options:

  • I think not taking AMM is a waste of potential - hits are resolved like a barrage, it has the surface area of 9 large blasts and with BS6, it's most likely hitting whatever you want with that S10 AP1 middle (against a 25mm based enemy, your chance to miss with the middle is 1/9 - against anything bigger than a Rhino chassis you literally cannot miss). There's nothing it won't hurt and it's the only real good long range AT option.

  • Wave of Withering is also awesome - being able to seriously harm vehicles/MCs out of combat lets you do other more valuable charges and, you know, it's the only D weapon available outside of Transliminal Stride ability.

  • Cosmic fire, I hope we can agree, is fine but the other options are so much better that I don't really see the need for it if you can't use it for overwatch.

  • Sky of Falling Stars is worth serious consideration IMO but it's a bit pants vs most super heavy vehicles. S7 ordinance barrage will still do a number to enemies though, so consider if you face a lot of MEQ. Plus, it's the only one you can fire without LOS. I just don't know what I'd replace to take it - probably Wave of Withering I guess, even though that neuters super heavy killing a little. Definitely over WoW on a Tesseract Vault, you do NOT want to be close with a super heavy in 6e.

  • Transdimensional Maelstrom is a bit of a risk - it's on average better than most weapons but it will grant cover. Sure, wiping out guys with a 10" blast sounds great but think about the size of your guy - not tall enough to reliably kill enemies. I'd stick with things resolved like barrages, which is why I say AMM instead.

  • Seismic Assault... not for the points. That's a lot of reliable shooting (averages 21 BS6 shots) but again, they grant cover and worse, it's not useful vs small units. Assuming you could get to the side armour of a Warhound, 5 of those kill the void shields and then you do ~8 hullpoints and probably one explodes so you may kill it. Maybe. So, if you want to maybe kill a Warhound and can get at its sides without cover, go for it. Otherwise, I really don't think it's worth the points you pay, especially when the S7 AP3 barrages are so much cheaper.


  • Of course, the decked out version for when points don't matter is obviously Transliminal Stride, Wave of Withering and Seismic Assault. That will let you dash into range, doing lots of damage on the way, then unleash hell at short range (which everything is at large points due to model density). That does come to 860 points and you really have to wonder if the damage is much more than SS+WoW+AMM but it is what it is. As a gargantuan, I think you should always, always rush into combat and the C'tan is pretty much the only exception. What you really want to do is get it deep into enemy territory and then tempt them to kill it, resulting it a 4d6" (average 14") S10 AP2 explosion around your now dead C'tan. Don't expect it to live long but my word, they'll put out a lot of damage in the interim. If you want dakka, go Tesseract Vault - a bit hardier VS shooting and SoFS+AMM will kill almost any ground troops from a safe distance. It also only costs you 580 points then which is insane. That said, in larger games you may WANT to suicide the Vault as it always has a Titanic Explosion, so take Trandimensional Maelstrom and Wave of Withering for 555 points and rush them. Do bear in mind losing either a super heavy or a gargantuan gives the opponent 1 VP (net 2 if you revive it).

    Fair enough, havent read the Ctans background fluff yet.
    I think Im trying to say though, in Apoc, races are supposed to bring (and have available) the biggest and nastiest units possibly. Are there Nid formations that could wreck him?
    If the Necron "big guy" significantly outlasses the Nid one, what did the Nids get as extra?
    How do other races "big guys" compare to the Ctan (IG titans aside as discussed).


    The nid one is not significantly outclassed but even so, it has the advantage of not exploding upon death. It also wins in 1v1 combat (especially prolonged ones where it keeps regaining health) and can kill tanks far more effectively. Heck, Seismic Assault will do almost nothing to a Biotitan - even if you roll the maximum 36 shots, you're still barely averaging a single wound. Without Wave of Withering, the C'tan has nothing on the Biotitan who will kill it first with either shooting or assault - which is fair, because it costs more points. As for formations, endless swarm is funny against it as it means you regularly can't actually shoot at them with any attack the C'tan has except the Seismic Assault (which is still IMO not worth it and even then averages 3.5 hits). The Harridan is in a similar situation but if grounded it's not going to last long as it's far worse in combat. It's comparable to the Barbed Hierodule but does beat one (which again, seems reasonable as the C'tan always costs over 100 points more even with minimum upgrades). In terms of what it does and doesn't beat, it's pretty fair. Actually, that's true of most of this apoc edition in general with the exception of Titans. The ones I'd worry about are Eldar.


    Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/21 17:49:07


    Post by: Bookwrack


     Peregrine wrote:

    So the only acceptable "discussion" is agreeing with what everyone wants to hear? Praise GW or STFU?

    Stop being a cry baby and stay on topic or STFU, really. If this was a thread asking, 'So, that new Apocalypse, what's it like?' you'd have a purpose here.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     Ratius wrote:

    I think Im trying to say though, in Apoc, races are supposed to bring (and have available) the biggest and nastiest units possibly.

    That's definitely an option, but of course it's not how you HAVE to play. Now I'm wondering just how it'd play out if a Hierophant threw down with a Transcendant C'tan. It could be an interesting centerpiece fight, depending on what else was buffing each side.


    Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/21 22:04:04


    Post by: Schwarmfuhrer


    I have his rules and when rolling on Biomancy the Swarmlord killed him in CC, otherwise attack him with a hierophant or scythed Hierodule


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    A heirophant would simply CRUSH a Ctan Bookwrack


    Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/21 23:02:54


    Post by: Eyjio


    Well yeah, the Swarmlord is a dedicated assault unit that inflicts ID (aka d3 wounds). The C'tan shouldn't even need to get into assault and being able to move 12" helps that greatly. Even then I'm not sure I would do it - the C'tan stomps can remove you from play, it hits like a truck and if you do manage to kill it, you'll nuke half your own forces within 4d6" who will take an S10 AP2 hit each. To put that death into perspective, that's about a 1' radius (actually 28"+1" for the base) blast that hits everything at S10 AP2. For sheer size comparison, that's a circle of radius 660.5 inches squared. The mega-blast covers 176.7 inches squared. The large blast covers 19.63 inches squared. You're roughly triggering 33 and a half large blasts resolved at S10 AP2, or 4 mega-blasts. That's colossal and you do NOT want it anywhere near your lines. I imagine it'll be funny as heck though, makes me super tempted to do the 54" line trick just to make him explode deep in enemy lines. It's a very expensive suicide bomb but think of all that damage. Hmm.

    EDIT: Yeah, the Hierophant doesn't win instantly but it strikes first, hits harder and is tougher. The C'tan does more wounds in a turn IIRC but then the Hierophant regenerates a ton and has toxic miasma. Which is fair really, the C'tan has better shooting and costs fewer points. It'd be a little silly if the most expensive gargantuan in the game wasn't the best in combat.


    Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/21 23:20:01


    Post by: Schwarmfuhrer


    Hey now im just replying to bookwracks question on a Ctan vs Heirophant. and ya i doubt the Ctan would ever get into combat with The Swarmlord but its possible. And in the case of a Ctan nuking the board, being a tyranid player you would never want to fight it in CC because in doing so you would get every single one of you troops killed so you'd shoot him with a barbed heirodules 12 ST10 AP3 and the heirophants ST10 AP3's as well, which in doing so will get all your gargantuans killed as Pylons rain down 3 Destroyer shots each that potentially one hit the Heirophant.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    The Ctan is pretty OP


    Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/21 23:40:44


    Post by: LeadLegion




    Yes, does this bother you?

    And identically posed? Why given that I often make silly or odd or otherwise different models for the fun of it, I'd say you don't really know me.

    Like one of my projects to try and make a reaver titan do the Gangnam style dance (yes I know I'm nearly a year late, sue me).

    As you can tell, I don't take the game particularly seriously.

    Not when I have a Hive Tyrant swinging around an Eldar guardian instead of a bonesword with another eldar guardian posed to look terrified.

    Of course I've been unanimously voted "bugnut crazy" by everyone I've ever met ever.


    Dammit that sounds awesome. Can we have a link to some pics please.


    Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/21 23:47:15


    Post by: Eyjio


    To be fair, if it dies, it's most likely taking out most of the Necron force. It's a similar issue to the Vortex Missile Aquilla Strongpoint - sounds super good until you realise you will absolutely rue the day it dies - a potential 7 vortexes smashing around your deployment is not something you want. Tyranid MCs still live the hit handily. It's not OP, just powerful in the same way that the Hierophant seems broken until you see its weakness to D weapons.


    Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/22 00:07:18


    Post by: Schwarmfuhrer


    Well now with the new Destroyer rules all super heavies and gargantuans have a weakness. I wish they would release a hydraphant for like a warlord/ phantom counter


    Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/22 02:08:34


    Post by: bodazoka


    ThePrimordial wrote:
    bodazoka wrote:
    You are using a (max 900 point) FW model in a 3500 point standard 40K game?


    Yes. Yes I am. Nobody has made such a big deal out of it that they refuse to play against it. Besides that means I'll let them use their Reaver or Reaver equivalent. Whenever you have multiples of these things running around the board then it starts to be a problem.


    That's fine I don't care if you are using it and I congratulate your group for allowing it.

    But surely no one can complain that a (generally speaking) FW model is OP?

    Im sure there would be some hard counter to it out there...



    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     happygolucky wrote:
    Wow I came on this thread to see what the Transcendent C'tan, was all about.. Instead I find a completely different topic (and the thread completely derailed) on whether people like Apoc or not...

    ...Wow I really thought I was going to learn a bit on the Space Jockey C'tan... I guess not then...


    On topic

    I believe its S and T 9 with 6 wounds and a 3+ and FNP and is a gargantuan creature?

    Has a couple of deadly shooting attacks which I think are around 24" all in all the model ranges from roughly 600 - 900 points.


    Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/22 02:15:32


    Post by: Sasori


    The Trancedent Shard is not only good because of It's statline, but because it's so small and easy to Hide LOS.

    It is a monster though, using the 18' Move D weapon, and Withering, you can pump out two D hits, with no problem. Then you can lay down the meteor on top of that!

    I wouldn't throw it in CC with a Heirophant though. Pylons are a much better choice for taking out Titans.


    Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/22 09:03:52


    Post by: ElSmacko


     D6Damager wrote:
     Peregrine wrote:


    Some people enjoy being rich idiots with more money than sense to buy on models/monuments to our egos. This is probably why my wife controls the family budget



    Maybe some of us are educated and therefore have decent jobs in which we can afford our toys without taking away from our families. Don't knock people who play the game because you can't afford it or manage your own finances.

    IMO large scale Apocalypse games are really fun (even if a bit time consuming) and there's no other game out there like it in scale and scope.

    Back on topic: Apoc is deceptive in that its touted as a "bring everything and play" type system, however lists are still important so that you have the proper OP counters to your opponent's OP stuff. 3,500 points seems a bit low in order to have all your bases covered. I think Apoc works best starting at 5,000+ points a side.


    A), that was incredibly rude and insulting.
    B) he was being sarcastic and self-deprecating
    C) he is still correct in his statements about the reduction in the strategy of the new version of Apoc.


    Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/22 10:28:10


    Post by: Kangodo


    ElSmacko wrote:
    A), that was incredibly rude and insulting.
    B) he was being sarcastic and self-deprecating
    C) he is still correct in his statements about the reduction in the strategy of the new version of Apoc.

    A) So was he.
    B) Only the second part, the first part has been made clear by other posts.
    C) No, he's not correct.
    The current model with breaks, Strategic Objectives giving points throughout the game and all those Assets require more strategy than the old way of "Orbital Bombardment and keep shooting for 12 hours long".


    Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/22 10:47:27


    Post by: Eyjio


    The Trancedent Shard is not only good because of It's statline, but because it's so small and easy to Hide LOS.


    Yeah, this should really be mentioned actually. As with the normal C'tan, you can hide it behind almost anything. I suspect this is the reason it has a 4++ - most of the time it will have the same in cover anyway.

    he is still correct in his statements about the reduction in the strategy of the new version of Apoc.


    No, he isn't. Old Apoc was dead easy in terms of "tactics". I'll give you a how to:
    1) If not going first, reserve super heavies for an alpha strike on T1
    2) Max out gargantuan creatures when possible as they take little damage from D Weapons
    3) Thunderhawks, Titans and Vortex Grenade go into your list as much as possible
    4) Spread everything out to cover maximum surface area.

    That's it. No, really, that was it. Half the asserts had to be banned because they were so broken (coughflankmarchcough) and the points were all over the place - Stompas, Reavers and Hierophants ruled the game because they were so undercosted. People limited D weapons but really, that was to stop Titan/Thunderhawk spam more than anything else. It was decent for narrative campaigns but you really needed to house rule it to hell and back before it was playable at a big event.

    At least new Apocalypse has some semblance of obvious playtesting. It's still not competitive but that's more due to the UGOIGO system than awful rules. I can easily see people playing it without house rules. I still imagine there'll be a restriction on D weapons for many but it's not really needed if you take it all into consideration. For example on a Titan, the 2 S D templates are good but the Plasma Blastgun covers twice the area. All non-Titan D weapons have substantial drawbacks. Essentially by taking the 2 large blasts, you are saying "instead of killing about 30 enemies, I want to kill 15". They're good, but not as good as people are making out and primarily useful for killing other Titans/super heavies. That said, there's still no reason I can see to ever take the Inferno Cannon. Seriously though, this version is a big step up in terms of rules, even if it doesn't appear like they've changed much - they have.


    Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/22 10:57:51


    Post by: Makumba


    Can it be used in normal w40k games?


    Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/22 16:26:10


    Post by: Farseer Faenyin


     Peregrine wrote:
     Sasori wrote:
    Some people actually enjoy Apocalypse games...


    I don't really see how, especially now that GW has done even more to replace what little strategy there was in the old version with more "buy this $100000000000 one-click bundle and remove your opponent's whole army from the table" balance disasters and random event tables full of different ways of removing lots of models without the players ever interacting or making decisions. The only way to make Apocalypse enjoyable is to house rule it so heavily that it barely resembles the game GW created.

    And I say this as someone who has spent thousands of dollars on superheavies and more tanks/flyers than I can use in a single non-Apocalypse game.


    People must REALLY not like you where you game if you are having this kind of issue with Apocalypse. I have played in more Apoc games than I can count as I prefer them over regular 40k games(no money in the world can make certain armies playable in 40k against certain lists in a tournament if no FW is allowed). Apoc is a much better environment I have found.

    I guess I could see where others could have bad situations, but for you to be this bitter and unrealistic about it is a little bewildering.

    Perhaps Apoc isn't the problem...


    On topic. No, the Transcendant isn't that bad. Distort weapons will tear him a new one let alone Destroyer weapons.

    Edit: Forgot my topic point! Ugh!


    Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/22 17:38:06


    Post by: Portugal Jones


    Makumba wrote:
    Can it be used in normal w40k games?

    You can do anything in normal 40K games if your opponent agrees to it.

    Which is a long way of saying, 'good lord, no, it's not intended for that.'


    Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/22 18:26:10


    Post by: CthuluIsSpy


    Makumba wrote:
    Can it be used in normal w40k games?


    No, it's a gargantuan creature.


    Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/22 20:40:50


    Post by: A GumyBear


     CthuluIsSpy wrote:
    Makumba wrote:
    Can it be used in normal w40k games?


    No, it's a gargantuan creature.


    And it has no spot in the force org


    Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/22 21:12:53


    Post by: Peregrine


    Eyjio wrote:
    As with the normal C'tan, you can hide it behind almost anything. I suspect this is the reason it has a 4++ - most of the time it will have the same in cover anyway.


    And it still doesn't matter because D-weapons don't care about that.

    For example on a Titan, the 2 S D templates are good but the Plasma Blastgun covers twice the area.


    The problem is saves. The plasma blastgun covers more area, but loses a lot of its firepower to cover/invulnerable saves and ends up with only a small advantage against infantry (or even a disadvantage against infantry with good invulnerable/cover saves). Meanwhile the turbolaser kills hordes of infantry almost as well, but is much more powerful against vehicles. In virtually every game the D-weapon is the correct choice.

    All non-Titan D weapons have substantial drawbacks.


    So what? Why does it matter that there's some "weak" D-weapon when you have 750 point turbolaser Warhounds? This is like saying that Vendettas are ok because ratlings exist.

    Essentially by taking the 2 large blasts, you are saying "instead of killing about 30 enemies, I want to kill 15".


    More like "instead of killing about 17 enemies I want to kill 15 and also be far better at killing vehicles/MCs/GCs".


    Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/22 21:55:13


    Post by: Makumba


     CthuluIsSpy wrote:
    Makumba wrote:
    Can it be used in normal w40k games?


    No, it's a gargantuan creature.

    No problem then . It could be 10 in every stat slot with an str10 ap 1 assault 1bilion gun.


    Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/22 22:58:08


    Post by: Eyjio


     Peregrine wrote:
    Eyjio wrote:
    As with the normal C'tan, you can hide it behind almost anything. I suspect this is the reason it has a 4++ - most of the time it will have the same in cover anyway.


    And it still doesn't matter because D-weapons don't care about that.

    Well... yeah. D weapons were made so that Gargantuans and Super Heavies have a counter. I mean, what do you want me to say? It'd be pretty bad if the things specifically designed to counter enemies such as the C'tan did not in fact kill the C'tan. You take neither cover nor inv saves, so this entire point seems rather redundant. If you ever played Apoc with a 2+/3++ Hierophant, you'll understand why D weapons now ignore invs and do so many wounds (actually it's like, 3.7 wounds per hit but that's still a good amount).

    For example on a Titan, the 2 S D templates are good but the Plasma Blastgun covers twice the area.


    The problem is saves. The plasma blastgun covers more area, but loses a lot of its firepower to cover/invulnerable saves and ends up with only a small advantage against infantry (or even a disadvantage against infantry with good invulnerable/cover saves). Meanwhile the turbolaser kills hordes of infantry almost as well, but is much more powerful against vehicles. In virtually every game the D-weapon is the correct choice.

    Hordes getting cover? Against a gun hovering a foot in the sky that moves 12" per turn? What precisely can shield that much? Inv saves do hamper it but most inv saves are 5++ so you end up killing 20 compared to 15. It's not exactly like S10 AP1 is bad vs vehicles either and you'll hit more. D weapons have their place for sure, but they are not as efficient at infantry killing as the plasma. In reality, you take the plasma for things like MEQ hordes, green tide, foot guard, etc. D weapons kill those things well but not nearly fast enough. 2 large blasts rarely do the same amount of damage as 1 10" in my experience, even with saves allowed. It's not obvious though, I wouldn't have said this without experience of it happening because it seems so counter intuitive but it's true. Well, I guess there could be one guy who brings like, 30 assault terminators but such things die exceptionally fast due to the amount of small arms in Apoc anyway. If you're facing any horde army (guard, orks, daemons, most marines with battle company formations, even Necrons now, etc) you'll really want to be taking at least one thing that kills them quickly. A plasma blastgun is as good as anything for that job.

    All non-Titan D weapons have substantial drawbacks.


    So what? Why does it matter that there's some "weak" D-weapon when you have 750 point turbolaser Warhounds? This is like saying that Vendettas are ok because ratlings exist.

    It's not really. D weapons on Titans obey the rules of multiple blast weapons, so if you want them to do their job of killing other super heavies/gargantuans, you centre them over the enemy and hope the scatter is kind. It's more like saying " why would I take razorbacks when I have long fangs". Different tools for different jobs - just because one seems immediately better because of the amount of shots it puts out doesn't actually make it better. I hope you noted how awful the Imperium Titans are in assault - they can't keep away forever and if you're taking 2 turbo laser destructors, a rush to assault it will make it before you can kill them all. I won't call the 2 TLD Titan bad because it isn't. It is, however, far less versatile than you are claiming. II'd compare it to facing 2 Manticores - yes, at first glance they seem broken with so many high strength blasts for so few points but there are huge issues that you only really see in play. BS4 large blasts are not accurate against small targets. If you switch from a blastgun, you lose twice the area but then ignore all saves. That trade is barely ever worth it - it requires the enemy to have at least a 4++. There are good reasons you see non-2 TLD Titans and it isn't just because the model looks cool. The reason I even specified Titans is for the same reason I'd specify a Pylon (which does far more damage for the points) - the issues aren't access or short range like other D weapons, but instead intangible - limited targeting of multiple targets, accuracy concerns, etc. All shots are fired at the same time, so most people will fire all the blasts at one super heavy - it may seem like overkill but if you need something dead you cannot risk it not dying on a bad roll.Again, not things you really see without actually playing, so it's hard to show you.

    Essentially by taking the 2 large blasts, you are saying "instead of killing about 30 enemies, I want to kill 15".


    More like "instead of killing about 17 enemies I want to kill 15 and also be far better at killing vehicles/MCs/GCs".

    Mmm, no, from experience it's definitely what I said. People will take formations because they give you a ton of good stuff. Those formations almost all have lots of foot troops without inv saves, which die readily as I said earlier. Finding targets out of cover is no real issue when you're moving 12" per turn then firing up to 96" away from an elevated position. It's just a different tool - one is not better than the other.


    You should find a group and play a small Apoc game with them. You can borrow the rules/templates (or otherwise "find" them) and just give them a whirl. It costs no money and, if at the end of the day you decide you still hate it, no harm no foul. I think if you do you'll be pleasantly surprised and I'm sure people would love to see your models in a big game. Still, it's up to you - I'm not here to change your mind, I'm just trying to talk about something I find fun. In the same way, I'd recommend at some point playing a 40k (or any wargame really) campaign with some character growth rules - if you hate it, you can drop out but it's very different to normal play. If you like it, hey, you've found something enjoyable. BTW, a bit off topic, are you having any luck with the IA12 assault brigade? I still haven't figured out a good way to deal with flyers.


    Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/23 09:05:21


    Post by: MightisRight


    What I see as having a lot of potential is flanking the enemy with a monolith and bringing the trans C'tan through the portal. Sure, it can't assault, but if placed right could deal a huge hit of damage down the enemy line, particularly with wave of withering. Plus, with a next turn transliminal slide (or even without), and explosion will be in their forces and not yours. This'd be especially good in smaller apoc games with less potential for monolith-killing interceptors.


    Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/23 10:07:36


    Post by: Kangodo


    There is nothing in this world that scares me more than the thought of Deep Striking Monoliths


    Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/23 15:50:59


    Post by: Peregrine


    Eyjio wrote:
    Well... yeah. D weapons were made so that Gargantuans and Super Heavies have a counter.


    There's a difference between "having a counter" and "being countered so thoroughly that taking one is pointless". GCs are pointless when 750 point turbolaser Warhounds exist, and the C'tan is never going to survive long enough to have more than a single shooting phase.

    If you ever played Apoc with a 2+/3++ Hierophant, you'll understand why D weapons now ignore invs and do so many wounds (actually it's like, 3.7 wounds per hit but that's still a good amount).


    I'd say you have bigger problems than game balance if your opponent is blatantly rules lawyering (cheating, TBH) and giving their titan a 3++ when it shouldn't have one.

    Hordes getting cover?


    KFF, area terrain, allied DA characters/psykers depending on your choice of horde army. Orks always have a 5+ cover save at least, IG always have a 4++ at least. I guess maybe you kill Tyranids, but who brings swarm Tyranids to a game that's probably going to end before they get to assault anything relevant?

    It's not exactly like S10 AP1 is bad vs vehicles either


    AP 2 you mean. And yes, it really is, since most vehicles in Apocalypse are AV 14. You can shoot it at a vehicle if you have to, but you'll really wish it was a D-weapon.

    You should find a group and play a small Apoc game with them.


    Your mistake is assuming that I've never played Apocalypse. I have (those superheavies aren't just for display), I've just concluded that it's an unbalanced mess and the new rules make its problems even worse.


    Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/23 17:10:41


    Post by: Eyjio


     Peregrine wrote:
    Eyjio wrote:
    Well... yeah. D weapons were made so that Gargantuans and Super Heavies have a counter.


    There's a difference between "having a counter" and "being countered so thoroughly that taking one is pointless". GCs are pointless when 750 point turbolaser Warhounds exist, and the C'tan is never going to survive long enough to have more than a single shooting phase.

    Well, that's in no way true but sure, whatever floats your boat. This is about as ridiculous as me saying "there's no point in taking AV13+ when longstrike railheads/deep striking melta hunters/haywire necron drops/flying MCs exist". It's just not true. Just because something can take out super heavies very efficiently doesn't make all others pointless. It also paints it as a massive target, so you'd need more than one to make a big impact.

    If you ever played Apoc with a 2+/3++ Hierophant, you'll understand why D weapons now ignore invs and do so many wounds (actually it's like, 3.7 wounds per hit but that's still a good amount).


    I'd say you have bigger problems than game balance if your opponent is blatantly rules lawyering (cheating, TBH) and giving their titan a 3++ when it shouldn't have one.

    Your assumption that we didn't know that the Warp Field specifies Zoanthropes and decided to let it slide because the other person was cheating (especially at a time when all tyranid MCs were ID'd by even being clipped by any Str D) is wrong. In fact, he raised it with us before the game suggesting that we used the intended old Warp Field, and we told him to take the 3++ in the name of having a fun battle. You know what? It was.

    Hordes getting cover?


    KFF, area terrain, allied DA characters/psykers depending on your choice of horde army. Orks always have a 5+ cover save at least, IG always have a 4++ at least. I guess maybe you kill Tyranids, but who brings swarm Tyranids to a game that's probably going to end before they get to assault anything relevant?

    KFF is a 5+, so worse. The psykers give a 4++/5++ so that's equal or worse. Orks do NOT have a 5++ at least, neither does IG have a 4++ (unless you've figured out a way to take multiple Azraels or blob guardsmen into groups of more than 50). You are also making sure the enemy laughs at you by assuming you'll have cover that can be sniped out of your unit with barrage weapons - which are everywhere in Apoc. EVERYONE who plays nids brings a swarm because of the endless swarm datasheet making them so powerful. I mean really, did you look at the old one? Have you seen the new one? If you brought 20 Warhounds and they took 20 Endless Swarms of equal point costs, they win. It's pretty much automatic actually as from T3+ you can't even shoot at them any more and they get to recycle units. Wasn't true with old Apoc, but Without Number was so hilariously broken until the FAQ (and good after) it was worth taking regardless.

    It's not exactly like S10 AP1 is bad vs vehicles either


    AP 2 you mean. And yes, it really is, since most vehicles in Apocalypse are AV 14. You can shoot it at a vehicle if you have to, but you'll really wish it was a D-weapon.

    Yeah, AP2, my mistake. Where are you playing where people are taking mass AV14? I mean, aside from Leman Russ companies, you may as well just throw your points away. Sure, super heavies do but as has been said many times, D weapons are for super heavies, melta hunters are for super heavies and vortexes (which I guess are also D now) are for super heavies. No, most normal vehicles are AV10-12 (Rhinos, Chimeras, side shots on most things, etc) as they're there for the sole purpose of blocking foot troop LOS and advancing quickly. S10 AP2 will put a nice dent into them. Most of the time, you won't be firing at vehicles specifically anyway, they'll be splash from the sides of you 10" blast template, so it's a bit silly to keep talking about them.

    You should find a group and play a small Apoc game with them.


    Your mistake is assuming that I've never played Apocalypse. I have (those superheavies aren't just for display), I've just concluded that it's an unbalanced mess and the new rules make its problems even worse.

    Well, it doesn't sound like you have to be honest, but I'll take your word for it. It really doesn't sound like it if you can't see both why people take hordes nor why you may want to NOT spam Str D Titans but maybe that's just me.

    EDIT: fixed a few nonsensical sentences.

    As I'm editing anyway though, you keep telling us how broken Titans are. So, how do you intend to protect it from all of the following:
    1) Deepstriking enemies (unless you feel like blowing yourself up, more Str D blasts are a pretty terrible idea)
    2) Fast melta, whether on flyers or drop pods or deep striking - whatever
    3) Flyers in general, especially Tau and Space Marine super heavies
    4) Endless Swarm formations
    5) Being forced to fire at your own units due to Word Bearer/Daemon assets
    6) Orbital Strikes
    and so on. Whilst you're at it, tell us how you can deal with any of those threats.

    You've expressed a disdain for hordes, so it can't be bubble wrap. So... what is your plan? Moan about how unbalanced it all is because you can't figure out how to kill a single overspecialised Titan? Tell us all that 4 Str D large blasts renders all super heavies/gargantuans pointless, despite them not being able to even hit some formations, let alone kill things in assault (which is where all gargantuans will end up)? How do you even deal with foot guard when you can't kill enough men in a turn? Oh, let's not forget you're also assuming you can draw LOS to the target at all times and that every model is on the ground floor, so your boards are all barren wastes with no ruins or LOS blocking terrain. You're saying the sky is falling and it's not. A Titan is basically the equivalent to Draigowing - it looks scary, it sounds tough but you get into the game and win on objectives. Titans, to no-one's surprise, are really, really bad at taking and holding objectives. When you need objectives to win and you cannot seriously tell me you can table the enemy with large blasts (especially when you can't even kill any flyer), how do you propose to ever win?


    Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/23 20:44:16


    Post by: Peregrine


    Eyjio wrote:
    Well, that's in no way true but sure, whatever floats your boat. This is about as ridiculous as me saying "there's no point in taking AV13+ when longstrike railheads/deep striking melta hunters/haywire necron drops/flying MCs exist". It's just not true. Just because something can take out super heavies very efficiently doesn't make all others pointless. It also paints it as a massive target, so you'd need more than one to make a big impact.


    You're missing the difference between "capable of killing", like Longstrike vs. LRBTs, and "almost guaranteed to kill in a single shot", like C'tan vs. turbolaser Warhounds.

    Your assumption that we didn't know that the Warp Field specifies Zoanthropes and decided to let it slide because the other person was cheating (especially at a time when all tyranid MCs were ID'd by even being clipped by any Str D) is wrong. In fact, he raised it with us before the game suggesting that we used the intended old Warp Field, and we told him to take the 3++ in the name of having a fun battle. You know what? It was.


    That was very nice of you to let him have a 3++. But you can't use a house ruled 3++ as a reason why D-weapons needed to be more powerful against GCs.

    It's pretty much automatic actually as from T3+ you can't even shoot at them any more and they get to recycle units.


    This would actually mean something if you had a reasonable expectation of an Apocalypse game lasting three turns. When you're only going to play 1-2 turns a swarm army that has to take 1-2 turns before it can charge anything is a waste of points.

    No, most normal vehicles are AV10-12 (Rhinos, Chimeras, side shots on most things, etc) as they're there for the sole purpose of blocking foot troop LOS and advancing quickly.


    Again, 1-2 turn game. A Rhino is a waste of points that needs to be turned into a LC Predator because it will never get a chance to deploy its passengers.

    As I'm editing anyway though, you keep telling us how broken Titans are. So, how do you intend to protect it from all of the following:
    1) Deepstriking enemies (unless you feel like blowing yourself up, more Str D blasts are a pretty terrible idea)
    2) Fast melta, whether on flyers or drop pods or deep striking - whatever
    3) Flyers in general, especially Tau and Space Marine super heavies
    4) Endless Swarm formations
    5) Being forced to fire at your own units due to Word Bearer/Daemon assets
    6) Orbital Strikes


    1) Warp quake.
    2) Warp quake.
    3) AA guns/flyers, and ignoring any flyer that isn't a Vendetta/Scythe/railshark.
    4) The game ending before they can do anything.
    5) This incredibly stupid and anti-fun idea being removed from the game.
    6) Who cares, nothing can protect against these.

    Oh, let's not forget you're also assuming you can draw LOS to the target at all times and that every model is on the ground floor, so your boards are all barren wastes with no ruins or LOS blocking terrain.


    That's actually a pretty good description of the average Apocalypse table.

    When you need objectives to win and you cannot seriously tell me you can table the enemy with large blasts (especially when you can't even kill any flyer), how do you propose to ever win?


    You're either missing the point, or making a ridiculous straw man. I never said that your entire army should consist of nothing but turbolaser Warhounds, I said that any unit that can take a D-weapon does take a D-weapon. If you buy a Warhound you're arming it with turbolasers. If you buy a Baneblade kit you're building it as a Shadowsword. Etc. And this is very bad for game balance because big expensive things that carry D-weapons are much better than any big expensive thing that doesn't, regardless of how many big expensive things you want in your army.


    Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/23 21:37:20


    Post by: -Shrike-


     Peregrine wrote:
    Eyjio wrote:
    As I'm editing anyway though, you keep telling us how broken Titans are. So, how do you intend to protect it from all of the following:
    1) Deepstriking enemies (unless you feel like blowing yourself up, more Str D blasts are a pretty terrible idea)
    2) Fast melta, whether on flyers or drop pods or deep striking - whatever
    3) Flyers in general, especially Tau and Space Marine super heavies
    4) Endless Swarm formations
    5) Being forced to fire at your own units due to Word Bearer/Daemon assets
    6) Orbital Strikes


    1) Warp quake.
    2) Warp quake.
    3) AA guns/flyers, and ignoring any flyer that isn't a Vendetta/Scythe/railshark.
    4) The game ending before they can do anything.
    5) This incredibly stupid and anti-fun idea being removed from the game.
    6) Who cares, nothing can protect against these.


    In response to Peregrine:
    1) That's a decent idea.
    2) Does nothing to bikes, or equivalent.
    3) Which AA guns or flyers? And watch out for those Heldrakes, they can remove your Interceptor Squads and your Warp Quake.
    4) You have this ridiculous idea that an Apocalypse game never gets to Turn 3. Please stop repeating it, it makes you look extremely immature. What if the game continues to Turn 3, Peregrine? How do you counter the passage of time?
    5) How do you feel about Anrakyr's Mind in the Machine? Shall we all start cherry-picking other army's strategic assets? "No, I think it would give you an advantage, so you can't take that!"
    6) So the titans have weaknesses!

    When you're only going to play 1-2 turns

    1-2 turns

    1


    How many points do you play, and for how long? Seriously, if you only get 1 turn, you've something up. I've managed to get 2 turns of a 5000 point battle done in 1.5 hours.


    Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/23 22:41:25


    Post by: Eyjio


     Peregrine wrote:
    You're missing the difference between "capable of killing", like Longstrike vs. LRBTs, and "almost guaranteed to kill in a single shot", like C'tan vs. turbolaser Warhounds.

    If by single shot you mean the entire shooting from 750 points, sure. Think of what else 750 points gets and tell me honestly that the Titan is better than it. Is it better than, say, 6 Vendettas? 7 Night Scythes? 11 Broadsides? 15 DSing 2x Fusion Blaster Crisis Suits? It can do more damage with a single turn, sure, but it has crippling weaknesses and substantially lower durability than any of them. Plus, as soon as the C'tan is in combat (either T1 if you're second or T2 if you go first) it cannot be shot by your Titans. Same with the Stompa or Lord of Skulls. Some super heavys are weak, but don't say it's pointless to take them when it really isn't.

    That was very nice of you to let him have a 3++. But you can't use a house ruled 3++ as a reason why D-weapons needed to be more powerful against GCs.

    Many other people used the same house rule but you are quite correct. So, let's look at Scabeiathrax the bloated, greater daemon of decay instead. T9, W6, 4++. When it gets into combat, it can and will be unstoppable. 777 points. D weapons used to do 1 wound per hit. Any other type of wound granted him FNP. It was insanely unfair. Now, Str D used to generally cause SP loss on a 3+, which was equivalent to 3HP, then grant another roll if you rolled 4+. Instead, it now causes d3+1 HP loss on a 2-5 and 6+d6 on a 6 - this is actually less severe as the average damage done is less. Not only that, but you could lose SP from glances before, which essentially only happens every 3 glances now. D weapons are now WORSE vs Super Heavies, but much better vs Gargantuans - in fact, GCs are now basically Super Heavies with extra rules and are priced as such. Before, GCs were strictly better than all non-Titans, which were only better because of access to Mass Str D and even then, a few GCs were still better than even Titans. Now, the playing field is level.

    This would actually mean something if you had a reasonable expectation of an Apocalypse game lasting three turns. When you're only going to play 1-2 turns a swarm army that has to take 1-2 turns before it can charge anything is a waste of points.

    Huh? The last Apoc game I played (which admittedly was almost 7 months ago now, I've been doing university stuff) we got to turn 6 before we called it at 9PM and that was 50000 points. Maybe you just got slow played? My group is pretty experienced but even so, games speed up the longer they go on (because there are less models and the ones on objective hiding tend not to move after the first turns).

    Again, 1-2 turn game. A Rhino is a waste of points that needs to be turned into a LC Predator because it will never get a chance to deploy its passengers.

    You're not using it for passengers, you're using it as a 35 point thing that stops you being targeted at ground level - for example, forming a wall of difficult terrain (or in 6e an actual wall now I guess) around an objective to stop enemies. People like to say points don't matter in Apoc, but unless you're playing "throw everything you own at the table" then that is an enormous lie you shouldn't believe. 35 points to help yourself win is 35 points well spent. At the end of the day, if you cram 10 predators together and a D blast lands on you either by accident or targeting, those extra costs (3 times as much) are a waste. Of course, if you need more anti tank then yeah, you'd be wise to make a few LC preds but generally it's pointless.

    1) Warp quake.
    2) Warp quake.
    3) AA guns/flyers, and ignoring any flyer that isn't a Vendetta/Scythe/railshark.
    4) The game ending before they can do anything.
    5) This incredibly stupid and anti-fun idea being removed from the game.
    6) Who cares, nothing can protect against these.


    1) So you're taking Grey Knight allies? Okay, that's cool. In which case, you need to protect them as well. That's at least 20 points per marine with no useful formation in a game where formations are key and marines die like flies to AP3/2 apocalyptic blasts
    2) Won't protect from people dropping out of flyers.
    3) If the enemy gets T1, that's not a choice. You need a way to stop it dying, which is usually an asset. That's where I was trying to lead you - the oppertunity cost is much higher
    4) See above, never been a problem for me
    5) It's in the game precisely to stop Titan spam. Why exactly should it be removed? It's useful.
    6) See 3. They aren't hard to come by either, anyone fielding a marine company gets them. A few CSM things grant them to. Again - the cost to field the Titan seems low but it's a lot of points into one unit which is extremely hard to protect.

    That's actually a pretty good description of the average Apocalypse table.

    Uhh, not really. Not in my experience. Those were just 2 random boards I pulled up and they've got plenty of scenery on. That's about the amount I see in my games too - we all just bring a few bits of terrain and the board is full in no time.

    You're either missing the point, or making a ridiculous straw man. I never said that your entire army should consist of nothing but turbolaser Warhounds, I said that any unit that can take a D-weapon does take a D-weapon. If you buy a Warhound you're arming it with turbolasers. If you buy a Baneblade kit you're building it as a Shadowsword. Etc. And this is very bad for game balance because big expensive things that carry D-weapons are much better than any big expensive thing that doesn't, regardless of how many big expensive things you want in your army.

    You've said there's little point in taking hordes and that Titans break the game so I didn't think I was making a massive jump. I've already argued against the Warhound one. Whilst the Baneblade itself is rarely worth it, the Stormlord is. So is the Stormsword. So is the Doomhammer. The ability to ignore an inv and do more damage than normal to a vehicle means little when you're able to safely ferry troops and still put out a tremendous amount of fire. In the Stormsword VS Shadowsword case, you pay 30 more points to quadruple the area you cover and get a TL heavy bolter. Once again, D weapons are not the be-all-end-all. I would also argue there's little point in the Tesseract Vault taking the D hellstorm because it puts it at too much risk - a super heavy within 18" of the enemy is a soon-to-be-dead super heavy. The advantage IG super heavies have is they're cheap. In fact, they're the cheapest in the game. Would you spend points on a Shadowsword if you had a 2 TLD Titan? I hope not. Again, it's too specialised - in apoc, large blasts just don't pass muster. At the end of the day, your super heavies will die. It's a near certainty. In fact, most of what you have will die. You need to keep some troops safe - Titans are insufficient. You can scoff at transports and normal tanks or whatever you want; the fact of the matter is it's normally these smaller units that win games. After all, who shoots their Titan's 4 Str D large blasts at 5 guardsmen on an objective when there's 9 Leman Russes in formation nearby? Both are threats that need dealing with, but the Titan is only really suited to one of them. In fact, if your opponent takes neither Super Heavies nor GCs (after all, you keep insisting non-Titan ones are worthless) then indeed there's little reason to take Str D at all - you are effectively just neutering the amount of stuff you kill. No, you need some Str D but maximising it doesn't pay off. That said, if you've only ever gotten to T2 of a game, how could I possibly expect you to know that? You were clearly playing either incompetent players or they really didn't want to play. Heck, a 10k point game of Apoc can be finished (as in, one side decimated and someone calls it) in about 5-6 hours easily. This point is just wrong.


    Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/24 15:43:39


    Post by: Skullhammer


    My DE like titans (well blowing them up) Titan hunters all the way and with the new spearhead formation there even better, they go tank hunter and ignore all shields(on a shadow hit) or against GC go preferred enemy with nine lance shots (min size squadron ) they come with shrouded as well so normal shots against them stop on 2+ or if there's a lot o D's around take the can't target me! asset, so for me gargantuans and titans are not a problem. (I often run 2 hunter squadrons).
    Though with the ctan kill it quick and it'll wreck all around it a good bonus for me.


    Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/24 17:24:04


    Post by: ClockworkZion


    On the discussion of formations:

    I've recently started a project to build the Exorcists Chapter 3rd Company (which is a battle company, so it has Captain Silas, a Chaplain, a full Company Command Squad, 3 Dreadnoughts, 6 Tact Squads, 2 Assault Squads and 2 Dev Squads), and am building it to the limit of 3k points (the local meta for Apoc). That means the only D weapon my army can actually bring is a single Orbital Strike. Everything else is perfectly standard and legal 40k equipment (I -could- get a second one as a strategic asset, but the point is the D-weapons built into my army itself are pretty limited).

    Why would I do this over just taking 2 Reavers and calling it a day? Well because when I put all 110 models on the table, all painted and based, it'll look cooler than hell. Plus it's a collection I'll be able to play regular games with as well.

    And that's the thing, Apoc isn't just about bringing the biggest toys, it's about bringing really cool looking things and getting bonuses for having themed collections (GW actually mentioned in a recent bit from "Into the Citadel" that the formations are supposed to be rewards for having themed collections and are to encourage people to do so. That's why all the Marine ones say that all the models need to be from the same company or chapter and why the formations don't have a cost on top of what you pay to put those models into a list). It's a game to let you break out parts of your collection that don't get to be used often, or allow you to have a reason to bring all those named character models you own to a game, or even give you a way to use that Titan you bought because you wanted something cool for your collection.

    Back on the original topic: the C'Tan looks pretty beefy and that 18" move with the D-Weapon hit fly-by looks pretty nasty on it's own but he's quite a bit points wise base, and then you have to buy 3 upgrades for him, many of which are over a hundred points each. I think he's well balanced and costed and is what a C'Tan should have been all along. Plus you don't -need- the one from the Vault kit, you can just as easily use one of the other C'Tan models (or make you're own) as they're about the same size, providing of course you let your opponent know that the Nightbringer you brought is actually the C'Tan from the book instead.


    Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/24 19:05:07


    Post by: Eyjio


    Skullhammer wrote:
    My DE like titans (well blowing them up) Titan hunters all the way and with the new spearhead formation there even better, they go tank hunter and ignore all shields(on a shadow hit) or against GC go preferred enemy with nine lance shots (min size squadron ) they come with shrouded as well so normal shots against them stop on 2+ or if there's a lot o D's around take the can't target me! asset, so for me gargantuans and titans are not a problem. (I often run 2 hunter squadrons).
    Though with the ctan kill it quick and it'll wreck all around it a good bonus for me.

    The what asset? It's true though, that DE Ravager formation is brutal. Tank Hunters+shrouded+lance will make mincemeat of pretty much whatever it hits.

    ClockworkZion wrote:
    And that's the thing, Apoc isn't just about bringing the biggest toys, it's about bringing really cool looking things and getting bonuses for having themed collections (GW actually mentioned in a recent bit from "Into the Citadel" that the formations are supposed to be rewards for having themed collections and are to encourage people to do so. That's why all the Marine ones say that all the models need to be from the same company or chapter and why the formations don't have a cost on top of what you pay to put those models into a list). It's a game to let you break out parts of your collection that don't get to be used often, or allow you to have a reason to bring all those named character models you own to a game, or even give you a way to use that Titan you bought because you wanted something cool for your collection.

    This too. You need a friendly group to play it with and who's gaming standards you agree to. If you pick it up with someone who's WAAC, first of all they'll probably lose and then whine but secondly they'll be no fun - in a prolonged game, not being entertaining is totally inexcusable, moreso than in a normal game.


    Plus, old Apocalypse was far more broken at release. Anyone who played a 3 Pylon army before the new Necron codex can testify to how much nonsense they were. Oh hey, a super heavy in the middle of my units that can't mishap. Well, I don't want Str D blasts to scatter over my guys so I'll use meltaguns. What's that? It ignores melta and lance, plus has a 5++? Well, what's it armed with? 3 Str D shots or d6 S6 AP3 shots against all units within 18"? 420 points? You're kidding, right? Yeah, it kinda went something like that.


    Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/25 06:59:55


    Post by: Skullhammer


    Shield generator asset (you can't target me) oh and it's a 3+ not 2 I was thinking of turbo boosting at the time.

    Formations are good and thankfully this time around they don't cost any extra points. For my group this is a bonus as we don't have the time for bring everything battles so we set a points limit around 3-4k per player and do a 2 on 2 type missions.


    Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/25 08:27:40


    Post by: dragqueeninspace


    If you are playing 3k points without formations that fits into a single force org why play apoc at all?

    As far as I can see it just means you need to be that buch more carefull about who you play and what you allow over a normal game (and 40k is not exactly the gold standard in even handed rules).


    Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/25 09:46:02


    Post by: -Shrike-


     dragqueeninspace wrote:
    If you are playing 3k points without formations that fits into a single force org why play apoc at all?

    As far as I can see it just means you need to be that buch more carefull about who you play and what you allow over a normal game (and 40k is not exactly the gold standard in even handed rules).


    Super heavies, Gargantuan Creatures, and the lack of compulsory FOC slots for a force that size. For example, he could take a force made up entirely vehicles, no HQs, etc.

    Anyway, I thought he said he was taking formations, as in "it's good they don't cost anything, because we set a points limit; this means I can now bring more stuff."


    Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/25 12:14:30


    Post by: Skullhammer


    Plus it 2 a side so it's more like 6-8k per side that is not a standard game size that I'm aware of. And yes with my DE I like to bring a full fluff raider force everything in vehicles and it's a total blast. Were as with my nids I love bringing hundreds of gaunts (of both types) it's what I see in my head when reading there background, sure in game blasts are killer but so many bodies and targets, and to me that's apoc, having a blast and a good time. Winning is a nice bonus but the sight of dozens of raiders or hundreds of gaunts carpeting the table is so damn good.


    Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/25 13:52:57


    Post by: dragqueeninspace


    Nothing stops 40k scaling to 3k+ points, the balance goes out the window but to claim balance in the apoc rules implies a playtesting involving a meta viable only with frighteningly strong psychotropic susbstances affecting all players. Although I'm still not sure anything it has can top buy two titans get one free from the old space marine/titan legions game.

    The apoc rules exist to rubber stamp armies and models that otherwise have no place in typical 40k games, like thunderhawks and titans.


    Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/07/25 15:06:34


    Post by: ClockworkZion


     dragqueeninspace wrote:
    If you are playing 3k points without formations that fits into a single force org why play apoc at all?

    As far as I can see it just means you need to be that buch more carefull about who you play and what you allow over a normal game (and 40k is not exactly the gold standard in even handed rules).


    I'm guessing this was aimed at me since I brought it up building a 3k army for local play. 3k is the meta per player with games often involving 4 or 5 players a side. This means the games being played are actually 12k-15k in points a side. I plan to build beyond the 3k, but it's a good starting point I think, and my list just happens to fit FOC, you can build a Marine Company of 10 Assault or Devestator squads if you want, but because I wanted to put Captain Silas on the board (who is the Exorcists' 3rd company commander during the Badab War) I wanted to be true to the fluff, which meant fielding a battle company, which happens to fit inside FOC. And it is a formation. They all get the bonus of counter attack, can overwatch for each other much like Tau and get a free orbital strike (so you still get another asset on top of that to boot), so it's not exactly a bad formation.


    Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/08/01 21:17:17


    Post by: Furyou Miko


    I'd just like to raise the point that I recently played a Vassal game, 10k points, in which I took a double-Turbolaser warhound, a Turbolaser-blastgun Warhound, a double-Blastgun warhound, and a Vulcan-Inferno Warhound, along with a pair of Reavers with balanced loadouts and a Warlord with a balanced loadout. Oh, and three Marauder Destroyers just because.

    Against me was something like twelve homebrewed Gargantuan Creatures with strength D close combat attacks and relatively poor shooting, along with three flights of Razorwings.

    I slaughtered him. I lost a grand total of one Reaver because I kept the double-armed Warhounds in reserve. Other than that, I killed one or two Gargantuans a turn, and the three Marauders slaughtered the nine Razorwings.

    What did the damage? Vortex Missiles, Turbolasers, Volcano Cannons and Laser Blasters. What did absolutely nothing? Blastguns, Vulcans, Inferno Guns and Gatling Blasters.

    D-weapons invalidate everything else on the field.


    Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/08/01 22:18:50


    Post by: Eyjio


    So you played a horrendously unbalanced shooting list which could be beaten by almost any flyer heavy list, anything that could block your line of sight or anything which could drop melta in your face and won against an assault oriented army? What do you want me to say, congratulations on killing paper with scissors?

    Str D is designed to kill Gargantuans and Super Heavies. If one side takes a lot of GCs and the other SHs with Str D, yet the GCs do nothing until they get into assault, guess which one wins every time? Your opponent had what, 21 models in a 10k apocalypse list? Come on. If you're going to make such sweeping statements, try playing more than 1 game and make it against someone who thinks that maybe only taking 21 models is a bad idea. That's like me going "I had a fight against someone who brought only Titans and I took 2000 termagants so he couldn't kill them all before they were in assault so I auto-won" or "Pylons are so OP, I took 23 and tabled my opponent who only took flyers". What would've happened if he'd taken 12 Thunderhawks with TLDs? What if he'd taken 5 Mantas? If he'd taken 12 units of vanguard veterans, how would you do anything locked in assault? What about 769 Necron Warriors in 15 different Infinite Phalanxes? None of them are less balanced than your list. Either you tailored or got very lucky but either way it's hardly a fair representation. Did he use blind barrage? How about shield generator? Both should have protected him. Even people who complain Titans are unfair know that they need bubble wrap protection, yet you ran none. No gak that blastguns, vulcans, inferno guns and gatling blasters - all things designed to mow down hordes with unrivalled superiority - cannot compete with weapons specifically designed to kill GCs when they're being fired at GCs. Anything that could deny you LOS would beat you. DSing units beat you. Melta hunters beat you. Hordes beat you. Flyers beat you. FMCs beat you. Night fight cripples you. Tiger Sharks utterly wreck you. You faced none, so you won. Well done. You've shown that Str D does the job it was designed to do. This is all without mentioning every single thing in your list gives a VP away, as do most in his.

    Now go play against someone with the foresight to not be an idiot who takes assaulty big units against a list designed to kill big units at long range. Heck, go play pretty much any 10k point Necron list. The people I've seen complaining are saying that Titans are too easy to kill, not unbeatably good. They're barely tougher than a Baneblade (just as tough if you can score 2 glances with anything before firing at them) yet cost almost 1.5 times as much because its shooting is better. That's it. Their strength is shooting. They cannot live assault, they cannot escape assault and they're not super tough. They DO have good shooting, but that's all. How do you stop drop pod melta? How do you not die to flyers? What's your plan against MSU anti-vehicle hordes who hide out of LOS like scarabs? How do you prevent flank marches standing next to you so that you either get assaulted or have to fire Str D blasts near your own Titans? Did you use any terrain? Am I also to assume that because neither of you had an HQ, you had no Warlord, hence Warmaster, hence any access to Finest Hours or Divine Interventions?

    D weapons invalidate everything - as long as it's a SH/GC, your opponent brings very few units and you are playing on at least a 6' across board. In any other situation, you need back up. Consider this - if your opponent had hidden units out of LOS on most of the objectives and not brought any SHs, he would have almost auto-won. Why? You can't get close, you can't shoot them and if he kills ANY of your models, he gets VP whilst you cannot claim any. Either you both played very poorly with foolish, easily beatable lists OR you didn't actually play the game at all. I know which one I'm betting on.


    Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/08/01 22:31:20


    Post by: Phazael


    I think the biggest issue is that Str D weapons are so widely available and basically invalidate a lot of the more interesting models in Apoc (who coincidentally tend to have a lot of Str D themselves). It was a really stupid design choice, especially since they made all of those fortification choices completely useless. The most expensive building in the known universe gets skunked on a 2+ by a single Str D hit (which Marines can evidentially carry around on derps, no less) which come on many inexpensive platforms. The Superheavies at least have a fair amount of Hull Points (and the Eldar Titans get some form of save), but anything GC or building like just gets autosnuffed. I get that they want stuff to die like crazy in Apoc, but having your 1200 point Biotitan get punked by Sgt Derpenstien with a Vortex Grenade from a Drop Pod is taking it too far.

    Really, they need to rethink the balance on Str D or every single game of apoc is going to degenerate into the guy getting first turn carpeting the opponent in D Templates and auto winning as a result.

    This all assumes, of course, that you want some semblance of balance in Apoc....


    Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/08/01 22:38:21


    Post by: Marzillius


     Phazael wrote:
    I think the biggest issue is that Str D weapons are so widely available and basically invalidate a lot of the more interesting models in Apoc (who coincidentally tend to have a lot of Str D themselves). It was a really stupid design choice, especially since they made all of those fortification choices completely useless. The most expensive building in the known universe gets skunked on a 2+ by a single Str D hit (which Marines can evidentially carry around on derps, no less) which come on many inexpensive platforms. The Superheavies at least have a fair amount of Hull Points (and the Eldar Titans get some form of save), but anything GC or building like just gets autosnuffed. I get that they want stuff to die like crazy in Apoc, but having your 1200 point Biotitan get punked by Sgt Derpenstien with a Vortex Grenade from a Drop Pod is taking it too far.

    Really, they need to rethink the balance on Str D or every single game of apoc is going to degenerate into the guy getting first turn carpeting the opponent in D Templates and auto winning as a result.

    This all assumes, of course, that you want some semblance of balance in Apoc....


    If someone shows up with that many Str D weapons, say "No, I'm not gonna play that, remake your list". Apocalypse is supposed to be FUN, not some WAAC tournament hardcore balance Korean Starcraft mode. Just put some restrictions in place when you play Apocalypse, like limiting the amount of Str D weaponry. It's really easy.


    Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/08/01 22:44:51


    Post by: Peregrine


     Marzillius wrote:
    If someone shows up with that many Str D weapons, say "No, I'm not gonna play that, remake your list". Apocalypse is supposed to be FUN, not some WAAC tournament hardcore balance Korean Starcraft mode. Just put some restrictions in place when you play Apocalypse, like limiting the amount of Str D weaponry. It's really easy.


    Ah yes, the classic "you're not having fun the right way" argument. Maybe instead GW should do their job as professional game designers and make a balanced game that doesn't require shunning anyone who cares "too much" about winning?


    Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/08/01 22:50:37


    Post by: Kangodo


     Peregrine wrote:
    Ah yes, the classic "you're not having fun the right way" argument. Maybe instead GW should do their job as professional game designers and make a balanced game that doesn't require shunning anyone who cares "too much" about winning?

    Yes, someone bringing 7 Titans is clearly a sign that GW should redo their stuff.

    Things are impossible to balance at 1.5k, let alone 10k points.


    Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/08/01 23:28:40


    Post by: Eyjio


    The chance of a Hierophant dying in one hit to a single Str D shot (assuming it hits) is 1/12. The chance of a 9HP SH dying in one hit is 1/9. Certainly not much to rely on (pretty similar to hoping a Wraithknight will ID the Swarmlord for example) and on average it takes 3 Str D hits for both. IMO the Hierophant should be a little stronger but I can see why it isn't - once it's in combat, it's basically the destroyer of worlds. Str D is designed specifically to kill other big units - those other units tend to have it so they can't be ignored. It's one of those circular loops - I need Str D to kill this thing, so I should spend VP from killing it to bring back my guy, so they kill you and bring back their thing, etc. It sounds far less balanced than it plays. The first turn alpha strike has always been a thing in apoc (and indeed any 40k game - it's a side effect of the UGOIGO system) but in this edition it's far easier to mitigate - unless you're playing a truly colossal game, the combination of deep striking reserves, flyers, blind barrage and shield generator is enough to keep most things on the board. On another forum, someone had the same experience I had in my 2nd ever game - so much anti-shooting insurance was used that the entire first turn was little more than a few immediate assaults, a few dog fights and mass positioning of units. Mass Str D is very, very overrated. It is utterly devastating, no-one will deny that. However, it's a lot harder to get than most people think - it's all either large formations, assets that cost VP or super heavies that give away VP. It's also almost all blasts, so if you have some way of forcing snap shots (cough endless swarms cough) then they can't even shoot you.

    7 Titans, as I've said above, is a very poor list indeed. When I think an upscale of my beginning of 6e 2k points list could beat it as it has a lot of flyers and haywire/gauss spam, something has gone wrong. It's so weak, I reckon I could table it within 3 turns and probably not lose a single unit by application of NF, shield gen and blind barrage. How? Because I'd run 9 Scythes of 5 warriors+5 attached storm crypteks due to unlimited overlords. Each Scythe has enough glancing to kill a Titan in a turn, which then gives me VP whilst I'd have no SHs to give away any. That'd mean to beat me, I'd need to be tabled... which can't be done by blasts as there's 9 flyers. At least Eldar Titans pretend to be tough vs glancing by way of holofields. Rocks don't work in 40k - not in normal games, not in Apocalypse. It's not like that'd unbalance my list either - that''s 3500 points including the overlords, not even a third of the allocated 10k. What's that get you, 2 Reavers and a Warhound? Meanwhile, they can't destroy the Scythes, so they will deploy the men safely and in total all 9 squads should average 90 glances and 20 pens, of which ~3.33 should be explodes, adding on another 7 or so hull points of damage. All told, that's 117 HP damage, 60 men on the table and 9 flyers. For the cost of 2 Reavers and a Warhound, there's enough shooting to kill over 5. If you use the Scythes to down the holofields (you should) then that's 16 void shields gone. Adding on 18 more HP damage and you see that on average you kill 6 Reavers, yet cannot be countered at all. You tell me - is it a good idea to only bring things like this? Are D weapons so good that you think you could table 6500 points of hiding models on turn 1? No. The fact is that this force kills 8700 points for 3500 and it isn't an unreasonable thing to expect as it only requires 45 cryptek, 45 warriors, 9 overlords and 9 flyers - any Necron Apoc player worth their salt will almost certainly have all of these except perhaps the Crypteks which are dead easy conversion work. D weapons couldn't table the on board presence on turn 1, at which point it's too late as then the flyers arrive which you either struggle to hurt (a vulcan mega bolter doesn't even average 1HP of damage) or cannot hurt at all.

    Str D is way overhyped and it needs to stop. A 2 TLD warhound can get up to 48 HP off something rolling perfectly and averages 15.6. 12 Stormteks + 15 warriors can get up to 66 and average 32. No, they can't harm GCs, but they are so much more efficient it doesn't even matter. In general, Str D is either a long ranged way to kill big things or a short ranged combat punch. Tailoring normal units is ALWAYS more effective, usually to the tune of half the points. Spamming Str D is a noob trap and should be viewed as such.


    Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/08/02 00:02:55


    Post by: KonTheory


    I have a quick question,
    If you give the C'tan the Strength D Giant Template weapon
    does he get to roll a D3 for overwatch hits like a regular template?


    Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/08/02 00:58:10


    Post by: Kangodo


    They cannot fire overwatch


    Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/08/02 08:28:28


    Post by: Furyou Miko


    The whole point of the game was "giant robots vs giant monsters" and it was in honour of Pacific Rim. Yes, we actually played the game. There's no need to be quite so condescending.

    The fact remains that since Strength D ignores cover and invulnerable saves and is almost universally large blasts or bigger, there's just no point using anything else. As for not being able to get close, why the hell not? Titan Minimum Range doesn't apply against Gargantuan Creatures, and in any case, both Reavers and the Warlord had TCCWs. Warhounds are incredibly maneuverable (for giant robots), so flanking any cover that could block LoS is hardly an issue, and in any case you can't turtle with an assaulty army and expect to win.


    Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/08/02 09:10:48


    Post by: Peregrine


    Kangodo wrote:
    Yes, someone bringing 7 Titans is clearly a sign that GW should redo their stuff.


    You're right, it is. If having seven titans is too powerful then GW needs to either make titans weaker so that having seven of them isn't a problem, or impose clear limits on how many you can take (and no, saying "play nice please" doesn't count).

    Things are impossible to balance at 1.5k, let alone 10k points.


    Sorry, but no. Things are difficult to balance. The problem is that GW sees themselves as a toy company first and a game company last, the rules are a bunch of random garbage thrown together in a few hours to sell the toys. With professional game design and playtesting it would be possible to balance Apocalypse. But GW never will.


    Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/08/02 12:16:53


    Post by: Kangodo


    Good balance is needed for tournaments and competitive play.
    Friendly play, like Apocalypse was intended for, only needs 'good enough' balance.

    And bringing 7 Titans in 10k battle is not 'friendly play'.
    Titans need to be strong, maybe a little overpowered, since you are paying so much for them both in points and in cash.
    There is hardly anything wrong if you bring one or two titans in a 10k battle, it's the amount that causes the problem.

    Eyjio made a good post btw.


    Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/08/02 15:53:02


    Post by: Furyou Miko


    Seven stock titans should not be able to slaughter three times that number of specifically homebrewed anti-titan gargantuan creatures.

    Why is that hard to agree with?


    Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/08/02 16:36:44


    Post by: TheKbob


    Some people aren't interested in Apoc (I'm generally not). I don't have the models to make formations because I build lists for 2K maximum in one army and then go to another army. I like a wide swatch of army types versus the 10k+ of one army.

    So when Apoc rolls around I dont own GCs or SHs. Therefore it becomes extremely frustrating to fight against them when you have annoying crap like liftadroppas and Str D stuff flying at you.

    I get in fluff what Str D is as a weapon. In the game, making you able to take zero saves is boring and frustrating at the same time. Why would I take super cool formations like the Space Wolf Hero Regiment when it can just go splat in one shot with no saves? Hooray, my super fluffy and fun unit gets one shotted on the first turn. Goodie!

    Just make D = S10, AP1, Armourbane, Fleshbane, Ignores Cover, Distort, D3 wounds. That's plenty powerful enough, still has all the effect of destroying everything, but you at least get a CHANCE to have some of your stuff survive. It might also stop people from doing D spam because it's good, but not one click win like it is now.

    Last Apoc game I played was 9k~ish a side, got through six turns in like 8~9 hours? We actually finished the game, lost by won VP. We kept a Baneblade alive by deploying it on a Skyshield. It was our only SH XD


    Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/08/02 20:00:40


    Post by: Eyjio


     Furyou Miko wrote:
    Seven stock titans should not be able to slaughter three times that number of specifically homebrewed anti-titan gargantuan creatures.

    Why is that hard to agree with?

    7x3=12? I mean, you even typed 12 out in words, so you can't say you meant 21, it definitely says twelve. Clearly they weren't anti-titan because they were assault based. Why is it so difficult for you to understand that good long ranged shooting beats low model count assault heavy armies every day of the week in 40k? That's an intentional design choice. You wouldn't call a Tyranid no shooting max MC list a "Tau counter", why would you say assaulty GCs are a Titan counter? Here's the thing - Str D is pretty much the only counter to Gargantuans (unless you count 70 lascannons as a "counter"), so it's very good against them. If you put only GCs against mass Str D, you lose. In a similar vein, if you field only Titans against mass deep strike melta, you lose. If you field mass DS melta vs GCs, you lose. Are you getting it yet? Unless your table was 12" wide, your opponent never had a chance without serious help because you fielded his hard counter list. I mean, hell, he even had more VPs to give up. What did you honestly expect going in? Unless these GCs were W10 with Eldar titan holofields, they were never going to get into a Str D gun line without support. Likewise, your Titans wouldn't live vehicle hunters without support. It's just a really silly match up and your blanket statement you made from the game sounds utterly absurd. A 160 point Tervigon survives a Str D hit on average even. How would you beat 50 Tervigons, etc? You just can't. If I can list about 50 hard counters to your list, how can you possibly draw conclusions about the game? It's like fielding 100 stock marines and then complaining you can't kill a Wraithknight - you were never going to be able to.

    The fact remains that since Strength D ignores cover and invulnerable saves and is almost universally large blasts or bigger, there's just no point using anything else. As for not being able to get close, why the hell not? Titan Minimum Range doesn't apply against Gargantuan Creatures, and in any case, both Reavers and the Warlord had TCCWs. Warhounds are incredibly maneuverable (for giant robots), so flanking any cover that could block LoS is hardly an issue, and in any case you can't turtle with an assaulty army and expect to win.


    Hammerheads ignore all armour saves and are the best AT Tau get. Why even bother taking anything else?
    Voltaic staffs from Necrons are the best pure HP stripping unit in the game. Why ever take any other Crypteks?
    Sniper kroot are the single most efficient MC killers in the game. Why bother with anything else?
    Wraithknights kill almost any single model in CC and have ID S10 shooting. Why bother taking anything else?

    You take other things because it's incredibly dumb not to. TCCWs? Wow, that'll come in handy with your 1 or 2 WS2 attacks at I1. The only things in the current Apocalypse rules with a bigger than large blast D weapon are: Reaver Titans (7"blast, inferior to laser blaster) and Phantom Titans (10" blast, inferior to phantom pulsar). That's it. If you house rule in Warlords again, the onus is on you to balance it. Do you think that big blasts are super good? I mean, you statistically do better with other models. They ignore cover and invs because you get 1 hit per blast, yeah? 1. If you're facing a model with a 3++ inv and wound them 3 times, you've statistically done a similar thing, it's just taken longer to resolve. It turns out that in reality you can get about 30 shots per Str D blast. Which do you think is better, honestly? It's not even a competition. Hell, the best thing to do against a list with mass Titans is exactly what I've been saying over and over - kill one, field no SHs/GCs, give no damns about the game because you already won as long as you've taken 1 flyer. Does that sound OP to you?

    Turtle? Who said anything about turtling? Stick the shield generator 12" in front of your line, advance into it. I'd really like to see you move around the 36" LOS wall that is blind barrage too. I take it that you DIDN'T use assets then, as you'd know that if you had. Was there night fight? Was there decent LOS blockers? How wide was the table? What were the GC stats? All make huge differences. Even then, Titans have 1 job - blow stuff up and draw fire. He had no fire, so... just blow stuff up? GG.



    Some people aren't interested in Apoc (I'm generally not). I don't have the models to make formations because I build lists for 2K maximum in one army and then go to another army. I like a wide swatch of army types versus the 10k+ of one army.

    So when Apoc rolls around I dont own GCs or SHs. Therefore it becomes extremely frustrating to fight against them when you have annoying crap like liftadroppas and Str D stuff flying at you.

    Well that's fine. Personally, I enjoy the spectacle of huge armies duking it out. Str D is there to speed up the game. Otherwise, everything would have like, heavy 20 lascannons because that's a great all rounder like S D. Sorry you find it frustrating but it's generally less effective so you should probably win in general. Also, lifta droppas were nerfed to only work on a 5+ as they're BS2

    I get in fluff what Str D is as a weapon. In the game, making you able to take zero saves is boring and frustrating at the same time. Why would I take super cool formations like the Space Wolf Hero Regiment when it can just go splat in one shot with no saves? Hooray, my super fluffy and fun unit gets one shotted on the first turn. Goodie!

    Yeah, it can - if they have no better targets (so any SH/GCs, Warmaster, Finest Hour to stop, DSing units, fast assault, long ranged AT, etc) AND they roll very well on the Str D chart AND you've left the models in a circle so that they can all be hit AND he can see you AND you aren't protected by a shield generator AND he doesn't scatter then yeah, you can potentially lose all the models in one go. In practice, that doesn't actually happen because he gains little to nothing for killing you.

    Just make D = S10, AP1, Armourbane, Fleshbane, Ignores Cover, Distort, D3 wounds. That's plenty powerful enough, still has all the effect of destroying everything, but you at least get a CHANCE to have some of your stuff survive. It might also stop people from doing D spam because it's good, but not one click win like it is now.

    So instead of doing 6+D6 wounds on a 6, we insta-kill, it does 1 less wound on average normally, wounds on the same, pens almost the same and does almost as much damage to vehicles? Essentially, the only change you've made is to get rid of the 6 result for GCs/EWs/SHs and made invs super good. In pretty much any other situation, your Str D is about the same. Here's the new issue though - instead of Str D being slightly inferior to mass shooting, you've made it so it's strictly inferior. So... why would you take it? I mean seriously, for 720 points your unit can't one shot any given unit, still expects to die on T1 and yields 1 VP. I understand you don't like Str D but a dedicated Titan still needs to be able to 1 shot something it shoots at, otherwise there's no reason to take it. It's terrible in combat, has no melta protection and is a huge target - it WILL die quickly. With your rules, a 2 TLD Warhound expects to do... 4 wounds to a Hierophant and 2 wounds to a C'tan. So, with the only thing it's good at, it can't do much of anything. In fact, it's barely better at shooting then than the Hierophant. In contrast, the Hierophant is more survivable, better in combat and has no hard counter like a Titan.

    Last Apoc game I played was 9k~ish a side, got through six turns in like 8~9 hours? We actually finished the game, lost by won VP. We kept a Baneblade alive by deploying it on a Skyshield. It was our only SH XD

    Called it. As I said, noob trap. Str D is designed to speed up shooting and it undeniably does. It is still a bit worse if the opponent is canny though.


    Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/08/03 21:15:36


    Post by: Marzillius


     Peregrine wrote:
     Marzillius wrote:
    If someone shows up with that many Str D weapons, say "No, I'm not gonna play that, remake your list". Apocalypse is supposed to be FUN, not some WAAC tournament hardcore balance Korean Starcraft mode. Just put some restrictions in place when you play Apocalypse, like limiting the amount of Str D weaponry. It's really easy.


    Ah yes, the classic "you're not having fun the right way" argument. Maybe instead GW should do their job as professional game designers and make a balanced game that doesn't require shunning anyone who cares "too much" about winning?


    You missed the point. Apocalypse is not a game mode where you are supposed to do your best trying to win. You're supposed to house-rule it and have fun. Watch stuff die and have fun with your friends. There isn't and will never be an Apocalypse tournament. It's in the rulebook.


    Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/08/05 03:45:50


    Post by: Mark1130


     Kain wrote:
     Furyou Miko wrote:
    That would be because the Transcendent C'tan is the Necron's answer to Imperial titans...

    I still want my Medusa V tomb stalker.



    Yes!!!


    Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2013/08/05 13:33:47


    Post by: Kain


    Kangodo wrote:
    There is nothing in this world that scares me more than the thought of Deep Striking Monoliths

    Not even...Discoliths?

    Necron Overlord: Ah, ah, ah stayin' alive!

    Imperial Colonel: Emperor, the badly fitting Nylon! It's HORRIBLE!!!

    Yeah I very often don't take this game seriously modelwise.


    Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2014/06/13 00:01:17


    Post by: easysauce


     ThePrimordial wrote:
    S & T9, 6 wounds, 8 attacks, 3 up armor, FNP, 4 up invul, & the board flattening powers I described for a bit over 700 points.


    what is his initiative though?

    because lots of I 4 force weapons exist, and while its not ID ing him, it still causes D3 wounds, so GK and marines and such can do a fair amount of damage, same with knights, a 375 knight will get 4 attacks + stomps, also causing lots of wounds with the possibility to kill being pretty high.


    do ctan have a D weapon in close combat?


    also, do they have any real AA capabilities?


    Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2014/06/13 00:36:18


    Post by: BoomWolf


    Melee is not their stronger side, no.

    They USED to be OP beyond belief. now they are merely strong. the D change matter alot on them, as part of the reason they were OP is the D spam they are capable of,


    Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2014/06/13 00:43:00


    Post by: easysauce


    hmmm, are they even 40k approved? I though you needed that to be a LOWar in normal 40k too.



    Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2014/06/13 17:55:09


    Post by: krodarklorr


    Yeah, in standard games using the Escalation rules, the T C'tan is by far the scariest LoW. My girlfriend didn't think he was a big deal, and I fielded him against her, and over the course of the game, she did 1 wound to it, and got most of her stuff annihilated. He is pretty crazy.


    Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2014/06/13 18:03:59


    Post by: BoomWolf


    He's not that bad actually. with the D nerf he has a hard time getting his points back actually, as his D attacks are big, but not many, and not great range.

    The warhound and revenant are the scariest in FW and escalation respectively, and the worst two offenders in the LoW list of "that's too much" out there overall, the C'tan is only third place. at least was, not sure he is any more.


    Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2014/06/14 03:37:39


    Post by: Fafnir13


    The best weapons he has aren't str D , in my opinion. If anything, the D nerf is a boon to the guy as they are one of his biggest weaknesses.


    Transcendent C'tan OP? @ 2014/06/14 12:03:42


    Post by: BoomWolf


    Yes, but they were also his biggest strenghts. putting out double hellfire sized D templates in addition to D mlti-vector-strike made him kill a hell lot more then anything else.

    Nowdays D still hurt him bad. he does not have many wounds, its just hard to wound it. and D puts alot of wounds on him anyway, where nearly nothing else can. (distort guns are really good at killing him too though. if you manage to get a wratih squad to his face, the'll eat him alive. wraithknight does not even need to get that close to hurt it bad.)