For starters, a codex would be a part of the wishlist. No, I don't believe we'll be getting one any time soon if at all so this is more a work of fantasy.
Let's try to keep it realistic and not the uber-tournement-overpower-kill-death list. This is Sisters of Battle. They're never going to be top dog.
So, realistically, what do you think SHOULD be in the never-to-be-released codex?
Start with the FOC in order to keep it organized.
As for me:
HQ: At least two more characters. (in addition) A living saint with a whole different play style than Celestine. (like heavy armor, shield and spear for example) And a kick-butt, tough as nails cannoness character with unique warlord abilities.
Troops: a lighter, cheaper troop type, maybe novices. Lightly armored sisters with a fanatical will to demonstrate their worthiness.
Elite: Something unique, like troops with some kind of super sister flame thrower. Or maybe a different type of Repentia that specialize in throwing explosives.
Fast attack: Bikes, buggies or Humvees. Something. Anything.
Heavy: Either a unique tank covered in heavy flammers or variants of the Penitent Engines. Maybe a shooty PE or one with armor instead of "the Emprah's protection!"
Those are my ideas. Probably asking way too much, but to put it on equal grounds with the other codexs in terms of types of units, it would need something like this.
What say you? Keep in mind that this isn't a thread about likelihood of said codex or "I want my 1+save female terminators with twin-linked assault cannons!"
PS. Oh, and I'd like to see the Cloak of St. Aspira back, please?
Hrmm..I want immolators that are fast and can fire again. I want to see repressors. I want to see acts of faith that are more than a crap shoot. I want them to have a powerful deny the witch. I'd love for them to have the zelot rule.
My Extended Codex when I finally get round to actually making the damn thing will include several things:
Unlocks for Repentia as Troops with a Repentia HQ.
Pos. Unlocks of other things with an X HQ.
A Faith boosting squad.
An assault transport.
Some sort of dedicated flame tank.
Pos. Baneblade variant.
More Inquisitorial Crossover?
More/Better Preacher entries.
A second Troops choice.
Also, at the end of the day, I think D3 Faith points per 500pts or part there of is the best option - so 1250pts would be 3D3, while 2000 would be 4D3, and so on.
Would also translate nicely into Apoc, and is an easily scalable system.
My Extended Codex when I finally get round to actually making the damn thing will include several things:
Unlocks for Repentia as Troops with a Repentia HQ.
Pos. Unlocks of other things with an X HQ.
A Faith boosting squad.
An assault transport.
Some sort of dedicated flame tank.
Pos. Baneblade variant.
More Inquisitorial Crossover?
More/Better Preacher entries.
A second Troops choice.
Also, at the end of the day, I think D3 Faith points per 500pts or part there of is the best option - so 1250pts would be 3D3, while 2000 would be 4D3, and so on.
Would also translate nicely into Apoc, and is an easily scalable system.
A Repentia HQ? That just made my day. I need that in my life.
A Bad A__ Repentia veteran who's in charge of a Penitent host. Hmmmm...
Makes Repentia troops. (hopefully with a price reduction 'cause they cost a lot.)
Maybe Feel no Pain or a holy, faith powered invul save of some kind?
- Zealot mobs could also be fun and useful. Make melee orientated and have them led by a priest of some kind. As long as the priest lives, they're less likely to flee. If he dies, then their morale plummets.
- Useful Celestians. Maybe make them like Sternguards, and let them all take combis? Or just make them actually good at melee? I'm not sure, just something to make them viable. I want to paint them like they are in Soulstorm so badly.
- Useful Canoness: Easy to do, just give her her options from last codex back. I want a viable generic HQ dammit!
- Fast attack: Just ort the flier over from Forgeworld. Not that they're likely to do that, though.
- For a superheavy, a Sororitas Baneblade. Give it a huge Inferno Cannon for its main weapon and loads of appropriate iconography.
- Alternate Superheavy: This was drawn on /tg/ a recently, and I kinda like it. Would be unique to the Sisters and fit their style quite nicely. Stats were actually made for it, but unfortunately I did not save them. Not everybody was sold on it, but I thought it'd be interesting to see what Dakka thinks.
Spoiler:
- And of course, supplements. Martyred Lady or Valorous Heart could be fun.
That's all I can think of at the moment.
Also, I know you said this thread wasn't about whether or not they'd be updated, but you seem like you could use some good news on that front.
Ha! Dig that giant robo-Sister. I'm game. A "Living Shrine" or something.
More options for the Cannoness is a must.
I'm actually less sold on the baneblade. They need something more unique I think.
(I've seen those rumors. Same thing they've been saying for years. We'll see a new Necron Codex before a SOB codex. :( )
Some sort of gaint Penitent Engine with multiple people on it has also been suggested in the past. But then I feel like that's just rehashing something we already have. I'm kinda leaning towards something like the giant robot Sister as a superheavy, now that I think about it. Just to do something new.
(True, but there are several encouraging gems in there: Jervis says that all armies are being worked on and will be updated in time, Phil Kelly expresses interest in working on them at some point and three designers play Sisters as their main army, Not saying we'll get anything soon, but I'd certainly not say never)
MWHistorian wrote: A Bad A__ Repentia veteran who's in charge of a Penitent host. Hmmmm...
Makes Repentia troops. (hopefully with a price reduction 'cause they cost a lot.)
Maybe Feel no Pain or a holy, faith powered invul save of some kind?
To be honest, they're priced acceptably - 17pts each, being that the weapon alone is 25pts each (and holds, the problem is ultimately they have no suitable delivery method.
HQ: Less focus on SC being "mandatory". Bring back the kickass 3E Canoness and her many wargear choices.
Troops: Always liked the Novices idea. Carapace with Lasguns? Also, bring back Frateris Militia meatshields!
Elite: Turn Celestians into something more CC-oriented. Give them shields and power swords to reflect their body/honor guard role.
Fast Attack:SoB Valkyrie for troop deployment and fire support. Perhaps also that Tauros Venator squad carrier variant from James Swallow's Hammer & Anvil novel? (problem: it was said to carry only 5 Sisters; solution: copy the "combat squad" rule from SM)
Heavy Support: Maybe those fancy Dominica-pattern Drop Pods from Andy Hoare's CJ Strike Force list?
Transport: Not sure if such a transfer has been done before, but I'd love to see the Repressor find its way into the actual Codex army list.
Other nitpicks: Unit-dependent AoF suck, allow us to think and choose for ourselves again. Also, make Faith Pool dice actually depend on army size, such as 1 die for every 500 or 1.000 points or something. Lastly, change the Shield of Faith back to the 3E resistance bonus against psychic powers.
Cool stuff: Bring back the pre-battle rites from 2E, there's not reason they couldn't work alongside AoF if both mechanics are balanced for simultaneous use.
For a Superheavy, I'd personally rather see something like a huge mobile shrine, something like this just larger, bedecked with skulls and aquilas, and featuring some arcane weapon, plus having a large morale boost effect on nearby infantry. Alternatively, the Tracked Cathedral from the 3E artwork.
MWHistorian wrote:A Repentia HQ? That just made my day. I need that in my life.
Ok, so having dug out my files and brought them up, finishing some, here's what I've got so far!
Repentia Superior
Spoiler:
FO: N/A Squad: Repentia Superior May replace any Mistress of Repentance Unit: Repentia Superior, Points Per: 10, Models: 1, Unit Type: Infantry (Character), WS-4, BS-4, S-3, T-3, W-2, I-3, A-3, Ld-9, Sv-6+*. Wargear: Eviscerator Frag Grenades Krak Grenades
Special Rules: ( C: Precision Shots ) ( C: Precision Strikes ) ( C: Look Out, Sir (4+) ) Acts of Faith Fearless Feel No Pain Fleet Rage Shield of Faith Soul of the Martyr Zealot ( Z: Fearless ) ( Z: Hatred )
Soul of the Martyr: The Repentia Superior and her make one final push to repay their enemy in kind. This Act of Faith is used in the Assault Phase. If successful, do not remove any models in the unit if they are killed before they have attacked. Instead place them on their side. After all other models involved in the assault have made their attacks, any mortally injured model placed on its side gets to make its full attacks, with no bonuses for charging. After these attacks have been made, any models on their side are removed as casualties.
Remember that she replaces the Mistress of Repentance, it's a 32pt model. Basically replacing the Sister with a 'veteran' Repentia with 2 wounds and an improved Act of Faith.
Wargear: Power Armour Eviscerator Frag Grenades Krak Grenades
Special Rules: ( C: Precision Shots ) ( C: Precision Strikes ) Acts of Faith Independent Character ( IC: Look Out, Sir (2+) ) ( IC: Heroic Morale ) Feel No Pain Rage Rampage Zealot ( Z: Fearless ) ( Z: Hatred ) Charge of the Sorrows Shield of Faith
Charge of the Sorrows: The Contritioness goads her fellows into a fervant rage, as they fly across the battlefield. This Act of Faith is used in the Shooting Phase. If successful, the unit can Run then Assault.
Repentia Canoness! NO OPTIONS! Because Eviscerators are cool.
Sister Katterin Magdelene
Spoiler:
FO: HQ Squad: Sister Katterin Magdelene Unit: Sister Katterin, Points Per: 120, Models: 1*, Unit Type: Infantry (Character), WS-5, BS-4, S-4, T-3, W-4, I-3, A-4(5), Ld-10, Sv-3+/6+*. Arch-Mistress of Repentance: Repentia Squads become Troops choices You may take one Penitent Engine for each Repentia Squad. These Penitent Engines are each a seperate squad. These squads does not use up a Force Organisation chart selection.
Wargear: Power Armour Fury and Repentance Frag Grenades Krak Grenades
Special Rules: ( C: Precision Shots ) ( C: Precision Strikes ) Acts of Faith Independent Character ( IC: Look Out, Sir (2+) ) ( IC: Heroic Morale ) Feel No Pain Rage Rampage Zealot ( Z: Fearless ) ( Z: Hatred ) Fury of the Unforgiven Shield of Faith
Fury of the Unforgiven:
Fury and Repentance: Twin custom Eviscerators, wielded with righteous rage, they have the following profiles: Fury: Range-, Str-User x2, AP-2, Type-Melee, Shred, Unwieldy, Specialist Weapon. Repentance: Range-, Str-User +2, AP-1, Type-Melee, Armourbane, Unwieldy, Specialist Weapon.
Fury of the Unforgiven: Such is the fervour and devotion with which Sister Magdelene fights and inspires her squad, that they refuse to fall in combat, pushing themselves ever harder to destroy the enemies of the Emperor This act of Faith is used in the Assault Phase. If successful, the unit may re-roll any failed Feel No Pain rolls until the end of the phase.
Not just 6 squads of Repentia, but an extra 6 Penitent Engines too! Valeriya the Damned + Penitent Defenders
Spoiler:
FO: HQ Squad: Valeriya the Damned Unit: Valeriya the Damned, Points Per: 160, Models: 1*, Vehicle Type: Walker, Open-Topped, WS-5, BS-3, S-5(10), FA-12, SA-11, RA-10, HP-4 , I-3, A-D6+3. Valeriya the Damned may take a retinue of Penitent Defenders You may take up to two squads of Penitent Engines as Troops.
Wargear: Four Dreadnought CCW ( FDCCW: Four Heavy Flamers)
Special Rules: Rage Battle Frenzy Unstoppable Rampage Shield of Faith It Will Not Die
Squad: Penitent Defender Unit: Penitent Defender, Points Per: 95, Models: 1-2, Vehicle Type: Walker, Open-Topped, WS-4, BS-2, S-5(10), FA-11, SA-11, RA-10, HP-3 , I-3, A-D6+1. Wargear: Two Dreadnought CCW ( TDCCW: Two Heavy Bolters) ( TDCCW: Two Heavy Flamers)
Special Rules: Rage Battle Frenzy Unstoppable Rampage Shield of Faith
And a new idea - Penitent HQ, that gives you 2 Troop Slot Penitent slots and some Bodyguards. Make a legal army of 18 Penitent Engines!
All works in progress, so thoughts and comments appreciated.
See, I intend to do a 9 Penitent Engine force anyway, so adding a few more wouldn't be that much hassle.... Though yeah, hoping for plastic.
The real fun would be the 3500-4000pt Katterin + Valeriya, 2 Defenders, 2x3 Engines, 4x10 Repentia (with Superiors), 4x1 Engines and 3x3 Penitent Engines, for 22 Engines overall, for a total of 46 Heavy Flamers and 4 Heavy Bolters.
Maybe I should come up with a Fast Attack version Penitent Engines with Jump Packs and 4 TL Bolters each maybe? Squads of 1-3, 100pts a pop?
I'd like a "generic" Living Saint HQ choice. Something that is akin to the style of C'tan shards, where you buy a basic model with a solid statline, then must by 2-3 upgrades on a list.
An HQ to make Seraphim troops, or some way to make them Troops.
Lynata wrote: Lastly, change the Shield of Faith back to the 3E resistance bonus against psychic powers.
The resistance to psychic powers is what I truly miss the most. That, and the (useful) anti-psyker wargear, and the WH Inquisitor with unlimited range Hood and Hammer of Witches power. People seldom risked psykers against me, but with the WD Codex and 6th I'm fielding one of the most defensless armies when it comes to enemy psykers (who are also usually much stronger now with BRB powers).
For the "Celestin getting up from seemingly impossible deaths" question: look at her back story and how she became a saint. She was apparently nuked at some fortress. Totally blown up, atomized, kablooie! Yet she reappeared again and again. Even if she is vortexed, she'll just reappear 'miraculously.'
Spetulhu wrote:The resistance to psychic powers is what I truly miss the most. That, and the (useful) anti-psyker wargear, and the WH Inquisitor with unlimited range Hood and Hammer of Witches power. People seldom risked psykers against me, but with the WD Codex and 6th I'm fielding one of the most defensless armies when it comes to enemy psykers (who are also usually much stronger now with BRB powers).
Together with AoF, the psychic resistance was one of their trademark features - and fit well to their fluff. The new Shield of Faith seems to be a sort of "always-on AoF", but I really would prefer the old one back. It's just flavourful that way, and would increase diversity. Even just a bonus to Deny the Witch would suffice!
As for Inquisitors, I still think those (and dedicated troops, such as ISTs and Deathwatch Marines) should be a dedicated "Allies" option for any Imperial army, perhaps with an option for Kill-Team as well.
Fezman wrote:Bikes would be suitable. Anything that lets them get up close quickly.
Buggies!
Sorry. The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of those Tauros APCs. Blame MWHistorian for bringing it up in the first place.
For those who haven't read the novel, the vehicle was basically another variant of FW's Elysian Tauros Venator buggy, removing the lascannon in favour of a 4-Sister passenger compartment (bringing the total to 5 Sisters, if you add the driver). I think it kept a Stormbolter as its only weapon, but I'd have to re-read the book to be sure.
Yes! They need "Rat Patrol" dune buggies with big guns.
But will Sisters ever get anything like novice troops, buggies or a new character? Or will GW just copy and paste what's already there?
What would I like to see in a SoB Codex? For starters, pages in between a front and back cover.
Seriously - I'd love new/updated models and what not but deep down, I just want a true codex for the Sisters of Battle again and not a WD one. Something that truly leads me to believe that they'll be around. Heck, Black Templar and Imperial Fist got special rules in the new Apoc book but not SoB.
Unholyllama wrote: Heck, Black Templar and Imperial Fist got special rules in the new Apoc book but not SoB.
Likely due to their outdated models. They're still mentioned in the description for Divine Intervention, and nothing is ruling out an Apoc supplement for them once their models get updated.
Without inventing units from scratch, what I was actually hoping we'd see in the white dwarf codex:
HQ -
Canoness - Bring back her 2+ armor and jump pack options (other options would be icing on the cake) , but limit it so a jump canoness could not have a 2+ armor. If you go with a foot Canoness you unlock Celestians as troops and her command squad also counts as a scoring unit. If you go with the jump pack version, you unlock Seraphims as a troop choice.
This would make the Canoness a much more competitive choice as a main HQ.
Confessors - Unlock Repentias as troop. Allow Penitent Engines to be taken in both the Fast and Heavy Slots. Give price reduction to priests taken and attached to Repentia squads. Allow some repentia squads to scout forward or outflank.
Would still not allow a turn one assault, but would give the assault army of the sisters a better chance of getting there and it fits the theme of repentias throwing themselves relentlessly and quickly into the fray.
Elites:
Celestians - Bring them back to Ini 4, Allow them all to take a sword/pistol combo. All power weapons if you want to pay the price for it. Allow them to take combat shields for an improved invulnerable save.
Sisters are an elite fighting force of the imperium. They are not space marine caliber, but being human still, they are far above the common guardsman. Celestians are considered elites within the sisters and are close combat fighters at their heart. While I want to see them keep their human strenght and constitution, initiative is where I believe they should be above the normal guardsman and sisters.
Fast:
Seraphims - Raise ini to 4 for the same reason that Celestians have it. Seraphims are one step further on that elite path the way I see it.
Troops:
Zealots - Bring them back. Make them impossible to take unless you have a priest. Make them essentially be one mob of zealots taken per priests in your army. Make them not take a force organization spot yet remain scoring. It would make the high cost of a priest very worth it.
Could run them as meatshields for sister armies, but they would really shine in Repentia heavy armies providing them with moving cover, cheap scoring units and some form of shooting.
Heavy:
Exorcists - Changing weapon to have two shooting modes: 2d3 str8 ap1 hits or alternate firing mode (missile barrage?) for heavy 1 large blast str 8 ap 1 with the ordnance rule.
Second shooting mode may seem powerful at first, but anything forcing you to snap fire would prevent it from shooting it. It would give the sisters some long range horde control and ordnance would be decent when shooting at anything with AV13 or higher.
Immolators - Give it back it's firing point and give it back the fast rule when sporting the heavy flamer. Turning it into a more expensive razorback made no sense whatsoever and lost some of the flavor this tank gave the army.
Imotekh's just grouchy because he can't have his morning coffee any more.
I'm not sold on the Novices idea. Seems like we're just putting Scouts into the Sisters codex, always has to me - besides, according to some sources, Sisters wear power armour as soon as they're inducted into the Order, and until that point they stay at the Schola. A mixed Schola unit might be a fun idea, though - containing Stormtrooper and Commissar cadets as well as Sororitas novices.
There is a precedent for Forge World making the leap to Codex in the form of the Valkyrie and the Hydra, however GW has stated that they aren't going to do it again because they want people to buy the Forge World books.
I hate the idea of making Seraphim or Celestians troops, though. Celestians are veteran battle sisters, so that might be OK, but Seraphim are rarer than Inquisitors. I can't remember the source (I think it might have been Daemonifuge), but there are only something like a hundred Seraphim in the entire Order of our Martyred Lady, which is the largest Order of the Adepta Sororitas.
Furyou Miko wrote: I'm not sold on the Novices idea. Seems like we're just putting Scouts into the Sisters codex
I think that people just quite want a second troop unit, with Novices and some sort of zealot mob being the perfect fits for this.
I'm sure it wouldn't be too difficult to make them distinctive from SM Scouts. Though not having seen SM Scout rules, I'm not personally sure how to go about this.
You want a nerfed Celestine? Screw that. The whole army's been nerfed. Let us keep one thing.
lolthis. We need a cheese unit more than anybody.
Deal with it, heretics.
Bah. In a way, I'm actually with Imotekh. It really blows when "the whole army's been nerfed" but you have a single SC that is "cheese". This is why just about every competitive SoB list features Celestine as a mandatory unit, and I really don't think this is how it should be.
If there's to be any cheese, it should come with the basic units (you know, actual Battle Sisters rather than some uberspecial Saint), or at least the custom Canoness. SC suck and are the bane of personalisation.
Furyou Miko wrote:I'm not sold on the Novices idea. Seems like we're just putting Scouts into the Sisters codex, always has to me
Hmm, a good point, though with this selection of gear I'd rather compare them to a sort of "Sisterhood Storm Troopers" rather than SM Scouts.
Could there be a way to make them more different? Some sort of special rule, perhaps a power armoured "Mistress of Novices" to accompany them?
Furyou Miko wrote:besides, according to some sources, Sisters wear power armour as soon as they're inducted into the Order, and until that point they stay at the Schola. A mixed Schola unit might be a fun idea, though - containing Stormtrooper and Commissar cadets as well as Sororitas novices.
GW fluff does not have Storm Troopers, Commissars and/or Sisters train at the Schola - all of this is done within their respective organisation, and what you are referring to is just the contradiction Sandy Mitchell came up with in his novels. The Schola, which features only Drill Abbots as teachers, trains only Progena in a sort of "basic education/indoctrination", and upon becoming old enough (age 12 for the example of Sister Anastasia) they are transferred to an Imperial Adeptus most befitting their skillset/capabilities.
Still, I like the basic idea behind your suggestion - why not have a general Progena Squad, picked from the most able students of a Schola who get mobilised to reinforce Ministorum troops? A bit like Hitler Youth squads, if you'll excuse the comparison.
On the other hand, how would you picture this unit without reviving the Marine Scout issue you mentioned, or letting them usurp the role of the Frateris Militia (provided you'd like to see those have a comeback)?
Furyou Miko wrote:There is a precedent for Forge World making the leap to Codex in the form of the Valkyrie and the Hydra, however GW has stated that they aren't going to do it again because they want people to buy the Forge World books.
Well, that sucks, considering GW simultaneously bans FW books from its own events. :(
Furyou Miko wrote:I hate the idea of making Seraphim or Celestians troops, though. Celestians are veteran battle sisters, so that might be OK, but Seraphim are rarer than Inquisitors. I can't remember the source (I think it might have been Daemonifuge), but there are only something like a hundred Seraphim in the entire Order of our Martyred Lady, which is the largest Order of the Adepta Sororitas.
"Each Order now numbers between 3.000 and 4.000 Battle Sisters, of which perhaps 500-750 will be trained as Seraphim." -2E C:SoB
Daemonifuge didn't touch that subject (but Blood of Martyrs maybe?) - though even if it did, it'd just be another example for licensed material conflicting with studio fluff. That never stopped GW from sticking to their own idea and simply ignoring what other authors come up with.
Bottom line, it could be argued that Seraphim should actually be more common, not less.
Generic Living Saint (about as common as Avatar or Greater Demons)
Canoness SC
Hospitaler SC
A HQ for Deathcult and a Crusader each. Generic or SC would be fine
Troops
Frateris. Cheap mob with horrible stats, improve faith when they die. Come with 1-3 priests. no further options.
Elite
Battle Conclave models may be moved back here. If not, a deathcult elite that actually assassinates would be nice.
Maybe a unit of non-sister witchhunters. Maybe weaker, less developed blanks.
Fast Attack
The compulsive flier. Propably a bomber oder an air fighter, though I'd prefer a gunboat wirth transport capacity
Some form of fast scout unit. Could be bikes, cavalry (my personal favorite) or a fast vehicle squadron.
Heavy
Mobile Shrine. A Land Raider sized vehicle, though not as tough and based on a different STC. Decent firepower, but the important bit is a reliques it carries, that give a considerable boost to faith and buffs nearby units. Model is a dual kit with:
Uber Transport. 15-20 Models capacity. Good firepower and anti air capacity. A jack of all trades AV 13 tank. Simmilar to Land Raider, yet completely different.
Heavy version of the penitent engine. More shooty, less fighty. Model the closed cockpit after iron maiden.
Army rules
Zealot all around sounds doable
Prefered Enemy: Psyker for sisters?
Get rid of the crappy invulnerable save. Instead give improved deny the witch.
Completely new faith system, maybe something similar to DE pain token, but given for casualties taken instead of those caused?
What I want to see in general:
Anything that shows this isn't just a bunch of women in power armor or the ordo militant of the Hereticus Inquisition, but also the official army of the eklesiarchy. So I want to see a greater fokus on the fact that theEklesiarchy has it's fingers in everything the sisters do and more non-sister units that show just how inventive the eklesiarchy is in getting around the restrictions put upon it.
What I don't want to see:
Novices. This isn codex astartes-girl edition. This is a force of its own and needs unique elements, not copies of Space Marine units.
More units that are sisters of battle with slightly different equipment. We already have to many of those in the game.
Generic Living Saint (about as common as Avatar or Greater Demons)
Canoness SC
Hospitaler SC
A HQ for Deathcult and a Crusader each. Generic or SC would be fine
Troops
Frateris. Cheap mob with horrible stats, improve faith when they die. Come with 1-3 priests. no further options.
Elite
Battle Conclave models may be moved back here. If not, a deathcult elite that actually assassinates would be nice.
Maybe a unit of non-sister witchhunters. Maybe weaker, less developed blanks.
Fast Attack
The compulsive flier. Propably a bomber oder an air fighter, though I'd prefer a gunboat wirth transport capacity
Some form of fast scout unit. Could be bikes, cavalry (my personal favorite) or a fast vehicle squadron.
Heavy
Mobile Shrine. A Land Raider sized vehicle, though not as tough and based on a different STC. Decent firepower, but the important bit is a reliques it carries, that give a considerable boost to faith and buffs nearby units. Model is a dual kit with:
Uber Transport. 15-20 Models capacity. Good firepower and anti air capacity. A jack of all trades AV 13 tank. Simmilar to Land Raider, yet completely different.
Heavy version of the penitent engine. More shooty, less fighty. Model the closed cockpit after iron maiden.
Army rules
Zealot all around sounds doable
Prefered Enemy: Psyker for sisters?
Get rid of the crappy invulnerable save. Instead give improved deny the witch.
Completely new faith system, maybe something similar to DE pain token, but given for casualties taken instead of those caused?
What I want to see in general:
Anything that shows this isn't just a bunch of women in power armor or the ordo militant of the Hereticus Inquisition, but also the official army of the eklesiarchy. So I want to see a greater fokus on the fact that theEklesiarchy has it's fingers in everything the sisters do and more non-sister units that show just how inventive the eklesiarchy is in getting around the restrictions put upon it.
What I don't want to see:
Novices. This isn codex astartes-girl edition. This is a force of its own and needs unique elements, not copies of Space Marine units.
More units that are sisters of battle with slightly different equipment. We already have to many of those in the game.
I like a lot of your ideas. The generic living saint, the heavy PE, and maybe no novices. But I'd actually want to lean more towards a more sister centric codex, not less. I don't want all my HQ's to be weird old guys. I like to think of it in terms of medieval convents. Some had strict overwatch by the local priest or bishop, some were very independent, but for the most part, they were left to their own devices. For example, the Poor Sisters of St. Clair (St. Francis's BFF's) and the order that St. Teresa of Avila established were "Sure, the Priest can show up once a day to give communion, but he better be separated from us by a screen and once he's done, he's outta here!" The Cannoness would be the only one that had personal contact with a male of any kind. Even the somewhat lax convents of Venice established the whole total separation thing. Yes, I know WH40k isn't history, but that's how I like to view it.
NeedleOfInquiry wrote:An "Approved for Warhammer 40K" Stamp....
Hum? The current 5E Codex already has the "Chapter Approved" stamp denoting official Codex-level rules, complete with the remark that the WD article serves as the official replacement for the 3E WH 'dex.
MWHistorian wrote:I like to think of it in terms of medieval convents. Some had strict overwatch by the local priest or bishop, some were very independent, but for the most part, they were left to their own devices. For example, the Poor Sisters of St. Clair (St. Francis's BFF's) and the order that St. Teresa of Avila established were "Sure, the Priest can show up once a day to give communion, but he better be separated from us by a screen and once he's done, he's outta here!" The Cannoness would be the only one that had personal contact with a male of any kind. Even the somewhat lax convents of Venice established the whole total separation thing. Yes, I know WH40k isn't history, but that's how I like to view it.
This sort of isolation is in fact mentioned in GW fluff, so your interpretation seems to fit in nicely with the studio material:
"Each Order is run by a Canoness and her Sisters Superior. They look after the training of recruits, the performing of regular prayer sessions (usually several a day) and the maintenance of their own affairs. Part of the puritan lifestyle of the Sisterhood is its isolation, and it is generally only the Canoness and her most experienced Sisters Superior who will have dealings with outsiders - even Sisters of another Order. The Sisters are utterly dedicated to one task or discipline and brook no distraction from their studies." - WD #211
As for the Generic Living Saint ... mhm, a bit on the fence about this - they are said to be very rare, only one being declared every couple centuries. On the other hand, there's nothing saying that all games have to take place in 999.M41, of course - not to mention that even Codex fluff isn't "binding" but rather just one of many interpretations.
Seraphim as troops would be so hilariously broken against horde horde lists. Especially with their AoF.
Lynata wrote: If there's to be any cheese, it should come with the basic units (you know, actual Battle Sisters rather than some uberspecial Saint), or at least the custom Canoness. SC suck and are the bane of personalisation.
In fairness, I'm saying that in the context of the rest of the army being somewhat lacking/restrictive. Were a new codex to make the rest of the army as whole more effective and less restrictive, then I wouldn't mind a nerf to Celestine.
Not too hard a nerf, though. I do like our immortal angel woman. She's iconic.
MWHistorian wrote:I like to think of it in terms of medieval convents. Some had strict overwatch by the local priest or bishop, some were very independent, but for the most part, they were left to their own devices. For example, the Poor Sisters of St. Clair (St. Francis's BFF's) and the order that St. Teresa of Avila established were "Sure, the Priest can show up once a day to give communion, but he better be separated from us by a screen and once he's done, he's outta here!" The Cannoness would be the only one that had personal contact with a male of any kind. Even the somewhat lax convents of Venice established the whole total separation thing. Yes, I know WH40k isn't history, but that's how I like to view it.
This sort of isolation is in fact mentioned in GW fluff, so your interpretation seems to fit in nicely with the studio material:
"Each Order is run by a Canoness and her Sisters Superior. They look after the training of recruits, the performing of regular prayer sessions (usually several a day) and the maintenance of their own affairs. Part of the puritan lifestyle of the Sisterhood is its isolation, and it is generally only the Canoness and her most experienced Sisters Superior who will have dealings with outsiders - even Sisters of another Order. The Sisters are utterly dedicated to one task or discipline and brook no distraction from their studies." - WD #211
Since it's come up, I've been wondering exactly how Orders get recruits? Would they just draw from the nearest Schola or would recruits be directed to specific Orders to some degree?
Tactical_Genius wrote: On the whole Vortex Missile thing... doesn't the missile have a bit where it says "or any other way you can avoid death" or something to that effect?
She doesn't avoid death though. She's dead as a dodo, she just has a special rule that returns her to the field later.
Troike wrote:Not too hard a nerf, though. I do like our immortal angel woman. She's iconic.
Too iconic imo...
Troike wrote:Since it's come up, I've been wondering exactly how Orders get recruits? Would they just draw from the nearest Schola or would recruits be directed to specific Orders to some degree?
In GW material it seems to be the latter... I've already posted a link to the article about Sister Anastasia, which provides us with a rare level of detail as to how one becomes a Sororitas. Its contents are backed up by the GW article on Ephrael Stern, which appeared on its website as part of its Villainy & Infamy series a couple years back:
"Raised at the Schola Progenium facility at Antigone's Harbour, Rosetta Anastasia was singled out by the Order Famulous as a potential recruit for the Adepta Sororitas at the age of twelve years. The agents of the Sisterhood were impressed by her pious spirit, which, matched with her latent fighting skills, made her ideal material for the battle sisters of the Orders Militant.
During her period as a Novice, Anastasia was indoctrinated into the ancient beliefs and traditions of the Sisterhood. She learned that the Sororitas had been founded during a distant and tumultuous period in the Imperium's long history, which was brought to an end by the actions of Saint Dominica. She learned of the Greater Orders and their Founding Saints, each of whom was a loyal follower of Dominica, who had then gone on to found the greatest of the Orders Militant, the Order of the Ebon Chalice. She learned of the Lesser Orders Militant, each of which was a daughter-house of one of the Greater Orders. She learned that central to the Sisterhood's doctrine is the knowledge that Mankind stands at a critical juncture in history, and that only through the salvation offered by the Emperor can Humanity prevail against the horrors of the galaxy, and Man's own self-destructive nature. Only through total commitment to the Emperor, can the Adepta Sororitas hold the forces of disorder at bay, and this can only be achieved by submitting oneself wholly; mind, body and soul to the tenets of the Imperial Creed.
At the age of seventeen, Anastasia stood with five hundred of her fellow Novices and took the Oaths of Adherence in the Ecclesiarchal Palace on Terra. The Ecclesiarch himself blessed the assembled Novices in a ceremony that lasted throughout the night, and culminated at dawn with a superior from each of the Orders Militant stepping forward to lead each of the girls off to don the armour of their new Order for the very first time. It was a superior of the Order of the Ermine Mantle that stood before her, and Sister Anastasia left at her side, taking leave of Terra for Subiaco Diablo, the Hive world near the Cadian Gate called home by her new order." - background of Sister Rosetta Anastasia
"Regardless of her unknown roots, it is evident that Stern was singled out from an early age as a candidate for the Adepta Sororitas. The Arch Drill-abbot of the Schola Progenium submitted her for consideration, and one Sister Patricia of the Order of the Holy Seal accepted her, shipping her out on the next available vessel bound for Terra. The records of Stern's period as a Novice indicate that she excelled during all the stringent trials and ordeals required of her, and she took the Oaths of Adherence along with five hundred other Novices at the Eclessiarchal Palace on Terra. At the completion of the night-long ceremony she was chosen to join the Order of our Martyred Lady, and dispatched to Ophelia VII." - background of Sister Ephrael Stern
So in short:
1. girl grows up in the Schola Progenium
2. Schola submits potential recruits to various Imperial Adepta, talent scouts show up to evaluate the candidates
3. selected to join the Adepta Sororitas, shipped out to a training facility for novitiate
4. officially assigned and inducted into an Order following their ascension to the full rank of a Sister
5. PURGE THE HERETICS
These training facilities appear to be run by the Orders Famulous; in Ephrael's case located in the Convent Prioris, home base of the Order Famulous of the Holy Seal.
Before FFG took over Dark Heresy, this was even mirrored in the Inquisitor's Handbook, which mentioned an Order Famulous training facility called the Abbey of the Dawn. I suppose someone at Black Industries has been reading a bit of the lesser known sources on SoB fluff.
Not necessarily. At least with the Convent Prioris and Convent Sanctorum, the training facilities are located right next door to the HQs of the six Major Orders Militant, and then the 2E Codex mentions this:
"For most of the time, members of the Sisterhood will not be occupying their Convent but are dispatched across the Imperium in accordance with their various duties. However, the Convent still bustles with new recruits and organisational staff, even when most of its inhabitants are fighting a War of Faith or are employed in some other major effort."
And then there's the possibility of assigning novices to individual convents to "help out". There's nothing in GW material to suggest this, but at the same time there's also nothing that clearly rules it out, if you find a clever way to make it fit in with the existing fluff.
Some licensed products clearly made use of the idea ("Detached Novices" in Dark Heresy, as well as Miriya's aide on the first pages of "Faith & Fire" .. remember the girl that sagged down under the weight of Miriya's boltgun? )
Our fluff conversations have just made me think, lots of in-depth fluff is also a must for a new codex. We don't really know a whole lot about the Sisters compared to some other armies (or such information is simply more obscure), and as somebody who's jumped on with the current "lite" codex, I don't think I've gotten as much fluff as the more veteran players have. A fairly in-depth summary of the history, organisation and culture of the Sororitas would be really nice, along with summaries of each main Militant Order. Really flesh out the army.
I wouldn't mind seeing a unit of PA Angels with swords and shields or they can be exchanged for Flaming crossbows with a similar role to the Vanguard veteran..
I wouldn't mind the seeing the rules on acts of faith working like the focus mechanic as seen in WM/H, that could be really refreshing for 40k, but that's just my opinion..
Troike wrote:Our fluff conversations have just made me think, lots of in-depth fluff is also a must for a new codex. We don't really know a whole lot about the Sisters compared to some other armies (or such information is simply more obscure), and as somebody who's jumped on with the current "lite" codex, I don't think I've gotten as much fluff as the more veteran players have. A fairly in-depth summary of the history, organisation and culture of the Sororitas would be really nice, along with summaries of each main Militant Order. Really flesh out the army.
Yeah. Admittedly, there's quite a lot of background already - but the main problem is that it's all over the place, scattered across old issues of White Dwarf or archived GW websites whose original has long been taken down again.
So ... yes, a lot of fluff in the next proper book we get would certainly be nice. That GW still has the means to do so was proven with the 6E rulebook, whose fluff sections were rather awesome.
You do have the 2nd Edition Codex at least, though, don't you? That one 's pretty much a must have for anyone interested in the SoB/Ministorum. "Basic knowledge", almost.
happygolucky wrote:I wouldn't mind the seeing the rules on acts of faith working like the focus mechanic as seen in WM/H, that could be really refreshing for 40k, but that's just my opinion..
happygolucky wrote: I wouldn't mind seeing a unit of PA Angels with swords and shields or they can be exchanged for Flaming crossbows with a similar role to the Vanguard veteran..
Would work nicely with the Celestians. Current codex already gives them a melee related AoF, so letting them take swords and shields would just be giving them the tools they neeeded all along. Would make for a quite competetive melee unit, actually, which we could really use.
Lynata wrote: You do have the 2nd Edition Codex at least, though, don't you? That one 's pretty much a must have for anyone interested in the SoB/Ministorum. "Basic knowledge", almost.
No, since pretty much the only way to get ahold of one of those is ebay, and they're kinda expensive. Still, I may pick one up at some point.
I want to see the return of the old Sacred Rites alongside Acts of Faith.
I want to see PRIESTS USEFUL FOR ONCE. I love the idea of a badass preacher, armed with Faith, Hatred, and single minded devotion armed with either nothing more then his office badge and weapons, or a huge Chained Eviscerator (With the Dawn of War priest as an example)
Maybe they could grant sacred rites to a squad they join.
happygolucky wrote:I wouldn't mind the seeing the rules on acts of faith working like the focus mechanic as seen in WM/H, that could be really refreshing for 40k, but that's just my opinion..
What is this focus mechanic? >_>
The focus mechanic is basically you get a certain amount of tokens (such as warp charges as an example) and you have a certain amount of "spells" which you can spend these tokens on, and these "spells" can range from offensive to boosting your own troops stat lines and rules as well as creating an area which has an effect on your own troops or the enemy's when they enter it. if we change the word "spell" to "acts of faith" it could be a refreshing and new playstyle for 40k adding new strategy's involved, as well as it would show the differentiations between how much faith a Battle sister has and a living saint, but thats just my opinion.
Troike wrote:
happygolucky wrote: I wouldn't mind seeing a unit of PA Angels with swords and shields or they can be exchanged for Flaming crossbows with a similar role to the Vanguard veteran..
Would work nicely with the Celestians. Current codex already gives them a melee related AoF, so letting them take swords and shields would just be giving them the tools they neeeded all along. Would make for a quite competetive melee unit, actually, which we could really use.
I was thinking more like mini-living saints like some Celestians who have made and honourable and selfless act but its not quite as much to scale as a living saint, I just though it could be a cool death star unit and it wouldn't transform the look of the Celestians, but that's just my opinion..
happygolucky wrote: I wouldn't mind seeing a unit of PA Angels with swords and shields or they can be exchanged for Flaming crossbows with a similar role to the Vanguard veteran..
Would work nicely with the Celestians. Current codex already gives them a melee related AoF, so letting them take swords and shields would just be giving them the tools they neeeded all along. Would make for a quite competetive melee unit, actually, which we could really use.
I was thinking more like mini-living saints like some Celestians who have made and honourable and selfless act but its not quite as much to scale as a living saint, I just though it could be a cool death star unit and it wouldn't transform the look of the Celestians, but that's just my opinion..
I'll admit, I'm just very eager for Celestians to be useful. Like I said, really want to paint them a certain way.
Anyway, I'm not sure about having "mini-living saints", seems like it would make the actual Living Saints less special. And Celestians do sorta fit with the "heroic" image you're going for, they are the Sisterhood's best, after all.
happygolucky wrote: I wouldn't mind seeing a unit of PA Angels with swords and shields or they can be exchanged for Flaming crossbows with a similar role to the Vanguard veteran..
Would work nicely with the Celestians. Current codex already gives them a melee related AoF, so letting them take swords and shields would just be giving them the tools they neeeded all along. Would make for a quite competetive melee unit, actually, which we could really use.
I was thinking more like mini-living saints like some Celestians who have made and honourable and selfless act but its not quite as much to scale as a living saint, I just though it could be a cool death star unit and it wouldn't transform the look of the Celestians, but that's just my opinion..
I'll admit, I'm just very eager for Celestians to be useful. Like I said, really want to paint them a certain way.
Anyway, I'm not sure about having "mini-living saints", seems like it would make the actual Living Saints less special. And Celestians do sorta fit with the "heroic" image you're going for, they are the Sisterhood's best, after all.
Well Im not saying anything's a bad Idea, after all my knowledge of SoB is very vague after all Its just I like the Idea of Angels and I think Angels would fit in perfectly in an army of the SoB..
Sepraphim units with wings instead of a jump pack would visually look amazing. Also I would love to have a dune buggy transport for sisters maybe as an open top max capacity 6 have a pivot heavy flamer. And also instead of biker sisters how about 4 wheeler atv type fast attack sister of battle unit.
happygolucky wrote:The focus mechanic is basically you get a certain amount of tokens (such as warp charges as an example) and you have a certain amount of "spells" which you can spend these tokens on, and these "spells" can range from offensive to boosting your own troops stat lines and rules as well as creating an area which has an effect on your own troops or the enemy's when they enter it. if we change the word "spell" to "acts of faith" it could be a refreshing and new playstyle for 40k adding new strategy's involved
Hmm, in part this sounds like the throwback to 3E WH rules. I kind of like the pool refreshing every round. On the other hand, the old system had its merit as well, promoting pre-planning rather than adaption.
Either way, that idea about "creating bonus zones" sounds nice. I'd probably tie it to some meaning, though, such as an objective ("holy ground") or the place where a unit was wiped out or an important character got killedmartyred.
happygolucky wrote:I was thinking more like mini-living saints like some Celestians who have made and honourable and selfless act but its not quite as much to scale as a living saint, I just though it could be a cool death star unit and it wouldn't transform the look of the Celestians, but that's just my opinion..
Reminds me of the Avenging Angels from Relic's Dawn of War PC game - supposedly the spirits of fallen Battle Sisters resurrected by an Act of Faith of the Canoness.
It always seemed as if GW themselves would aim for a more ambiguous nature of what AoF actually are (up to the point of writing they merely "appear miraculous to the unschooled" in Codex fluff), so this might run counter to that idea. Plus, as Troike mentioned, we already have the Seraphim - can't get much more angelic than that!
(agree about Celestians needing to become more useful, btw - I'd really love to see them turned into a sort of Crusader-style CC unit, a bit like this)
I like Celestians as a more generic Veteran - with the options for close combat weapons or ranged weapons. Let the whole squad take Armoury weapons, say. That way you can equip them to the role you want -whether with inferno pistols all round, or power swords and storm shields, or just every model with a storm bolter.
happygolucky wrote:The focus mechanic is basically you get a certain amount of tokens (such as warp charges as an example) and you have a certain amount of "spells" which you can spend these tokens on, and these "spells" can range from offensive to boosting your own troops stat lines and rules as well as creating an area which has an effect on your own troops or the enemy's when they enter it. if we change the word "spell" to "acts of faith" it could be a refreshing and new playstyle for 40k adding new strategy's involved
Hmm, in part this sounds like the throwback to 3E WH rules. I kind of like the pool refreshing every round. On the other hand, the old system had its merit as well, promoting pre-planning rather than adaption.
Either way, that idea about "creating bonus zones" sounds nice. I'd probably tie it to some meaning, though, such as an objective ("holy ground") or the place where a unit was wiped out or an important character got killedmartyred.
happygolucky wrote:I was thinking more like mini-living saints like some Celestians who have made and honourable and selfless act but its not quite as much to scale as a living saint, I just though it could be a cool death star unit and it wouldn't transform the look of the Celestians, but that's just my opinion..
Reminds me of the Avenging Angels from Relic's Dawn of War PC game - supposedly the spirits of fallen Battle Sisters resurrected by an Act of Faith of the Canoness.
It always seemed as if GW themselves would aim for a more ambiguous nature of what AoF actually are (up to the point of writing they merely "appear miraculous to the unschooled" in Codex fluff), so this might run counter to that idea. Plus, as Troike mentioned, we already have the Seraphim - can't get much more angelic than that!
(agree about Celestians needing to become more useful, btw - I'd really love to see them turned into a sort of Crusader-style CC unit, a bit like this)
Yeah that's what I was thinking about the Angel unit, it would be nice and it would give it more of a variety of Art direction than just the "PA nuns with guns" theme..
HQ: Yeah, we need a really solid customizable Canoness again with many of the interesting old Wargear bits. The Rites of Battle sound great, maybe wrap them up in the Canoness options? Maybe make it a function of the standard bearer like DA? Definitely another couple of Sororitas special characters. For my part, I think there should never be an army where you feel like you HAVE to take a Special Character. Also, the Hospitaler is s sweet model but FNP on a five or six-strong unit with T3 is a bad joke. Getting Palatines back would be nice. Priests need work, probably a points reduction.
Troops: Frateris or some such would be great, I probably wouldn't play them but a lot of people would. On the other hand, allies do this just fine so... yeah. Eviscerators back dang it! I think their exclusion is foolish and you shouldn't need to pay the priest tax and forego the rhino.
Elites: I agree with better CC Celestians. Shields and a couple PW would be cool, as would I4. Right now they are pretty meh. Or make them better at shooting. Arcos and Repentia need to have a way to make it across the field and do some damage again, Rhino obviously doesn't cut it. Arcos took a MASSIVE hit and Repentia, though better, are still not easy to use.
FA: Seraphim need I4 badly. Other than that I think they are mostly fine as they stand.
HVY: Would we like PE as monstrous creatures more than light vehicles? I haven't played them enough to decide how they play. I know that delivering them intact is very difficult and they are very expensive for a unit that does nothing for at least a couple of turns. Also, nearly every army has either grenades or something that kill them well before they strike, even if they get in combat. Exorcists would be better in my opinion with less potential shots but twin-linked to represent the massive salvos of missiles. This would also take on some anti-flyer duty. IT seems right now that they don't really work except in multiples.
MISC: Immolators obviously need to move and flame again, either by Torrent or just let them fire like fast vehicles. Honestly, how did this get forgotten in WD exactly? Also, I loved Holy Promethium. Hey, give that to a couple of special units? What about an Elites slot with twin HF option and CCW? Sororitas Absolution Squad? I could see Incinerators, even (don't know or neccesarily care about fluffiness, just makes sense.).
Acts of Faith need help, as does their whole structure. There should be a list of a handful of AoF each squad can use, rather than a single one, that are fairly generic but situationally powerful and miraculous feeling. As it stands you are paying extra points for AoF that aren't even a sure thing. I liked the non-random Faith system and martyrdom, the random D6 makes it unreliable. Speaking of which, Imagifers should be either a lot cheaper or do something worth 20 points. What if each unit in the army gets the basic BSS options as they stand, and Imagifers let you pick another AoF for that unit? The thing that was nice about the set Acts was that you had to marshal your points carefully and they did work 'Miracles' when used. You were rewarded for playing aggressively but still needed to be careful about your usage.
Acts of Faith list should be something like:
Relentless
+1I and Fleet
Feel no Pain, or 4+ invul
Auto Regroup
Twin-Linked fire
Rending or AP boost
I like the idea of Battle Rites, though I don't know them. You could also just make these Warlord Traits. How about:
Suffer Not a Witch to Live: Army gets Preferred: Psykers, and gets Deny the Witch 5+.
Burn the Heretic: Flamers gain Relentless.
Light of the Emperor: 12" leadership bubble for Canoness, plus Stubborn?
Purge the Unclean: Army gains Hatred.
Fire From the Heavens: Celestians are scoring, or orbital strike?
Honestly I was overall happy with the 3E book, I wouldn't personally need a lot of new stuff.
Troike wrote: Oh, we already have an angel-eque unit, the Seraphim. Their jump packs look sorta like wings, and the word "Seraphim" refers to a sort of Angel.
On this note, I'd like the naming convention to continue and that we don't end up with something akin to Canoness Martyr of the Order of Martyrs riding her Martyr-Mobile holding a Martyr Gun and Martyr Blade.
Troike wrote: Oh, we already have an angel-eque unit, the Seraphim. Their jump packs look sorta like wings, and the word "Seraphim" refers to a sort of Angel.
On this note, I'd like the naming convention to continue and that we don't end up with something akin to Canoness Martyr of the Order of Martyrs riding her Martyr-Mobile holding a Martyr Gun and Martyr Blade.
Well, GW just LOVES to write them as Martyrs and don't seem to realize that they can make the enemy die as well.
It seems to depend on who gets to write the text, actually... There is some rather badass SoB fluff in various GW sources.
Like Sister Martika infiltrating an Ork camp on her own in order to recover a stolen Rhino and the relic contained therein, then having a long chase with a bunch of pursueing Trukks, one of whom she simply knocks off the road before eventually making it to the spaceport.
Or Sister Anastasia, the exiled Repentia who is currently carving a bloody path through the Imperium, armed with an Imperial Saint's power sword and killing the corrupted agents of Abbadon's 13th Black Crusade as revealed to her in a series of visions, with an as-of-yet unidentified but important Chaos Space Marine in crimson armour being her eventual target.
And, of course, Canoness Praxedes, who went toe-to-toe with a Tyranid Hive Tyrant and smashed its head with her power maul in single combat before leading the rest of her troops directly into the advancing hordes in order to buy time for the evacuation shuttles.
Okay, I suppose the latter qualifies as martyrdom. Still badass.
Lynata wrote: It seems to depend on who gets to write the text, actually... There is some rather badass SoB fluff in various GW sources.
Like Sister Martika infiltrating an Ork camp on her own in order to recover a stolen Rhino and the relic contained therein, then having a long chase with a bunch of pursueing Trukks, one of whom she simply knocks off the road before eventually making it to the spaceport.
Or Sister Anastasia, the exiled Repentia who is currently carving a bloody path through the Imperium, armed with an Imperial Saint's power sword and killing the corrupted agents of Abbadon's 13th Black Crusade as revealed to her in a series of visions, with an as-of-yet unidentified but important Chaos Space Marine in crimson armour being her eventual target.
And, of course, Canoness Praxedes, who went toe-to-toe with a Tyranid Hive Tyrant and smashed its head with her power maul in single combat before leading the rest of her troops directly into the advancing hordes in order to buy time for the evacuation shuttles.
Okay, I suppose the latter qualifies as martyrdom. Still badass.
I must know where these stories are. Well, the first two at any rate.
'Nother idea. Apologies if this has been said already, but a special Canoness character might be nice. At the moment all of the special characters are either preachers or a supernatural being. An actual, "normal" Sororitas character would be nice to see. Would also presumably come with some badass fluff.
MWHistorian wrote: Well, GW just LOVES to write them as Martyrs and don't seem to realize that they can make the enemy die as well.
I've got to say, after learning a lot more SoB fluff in the past months, I'm honestly not sure it's as bad as the internet makes it out to be. I think it's mostly a case of some of positive fluff about them is somewhat obscure, and events being distorted (e.g, some people think that the SW "massacred" three Sororitas Orders when in fact they just fought for a while before the Ecclesiarchy decided that they weren't getting anywhere and withdrew).
If one were to gather every piece of SoB fluff written, and catagorise it into something like "positive", "neutral" and "negative", then I reckon that the negative column would be outweighed by the positive one. Granted sorting fluff into strict catagories like that probably isn't too straightforward, but you ge the idea.
Hmmm...maybe we should make a tally of negative fluff vs positive and see if the reputation is deserved or not.
Bad (taken from 1d4 chan) It doesn't say where these examples came from so I apologize, but these are supposedly from canonical texts.
Some of a Dialogus Order turned to Chaos by one Slaaneshi Keeper of Secrets.
A whole Order Mind Controlled by one chaos Psyker. fething Goto.
Another whole Order Mind Controlled by one chaos Psyker. Why, Sandy, why? To be fair, it wasn't just them; the guy mind-controlled even commmissar cadets, entire planets of guardsmen and PDF troopers...
A strike force of Celestians and an Inquisitor being killed, cannibalized, and sacrificed by the Sons of Malice Astartes chapter for disturbing their victory rites and falsely accusing the chapter of heresy. (Imperium does nothing... Apart from declaring the Sons of Malice to be heretics anyway.)
99% of sisters in the galaxy vanishing due to to a retcon in the two whole paragraphs of fluff given them by the 5e rulebook. Considered by most to be proof of what was to come, considering the clown-car that is the current Sisters of Battle army on tabletop.
A whole shrine-world of Sisters killed by Chaos Dreadnought. Said dread shrugs off meltas, meltabombs and multiple Exorcist volleys, a Living Saint even gives up her divinity to stop it, and fails. It's destroyed instantly when a Marine throws a hammer at it. We are not making this crap up.- ++Hell Brute, not a dreadnought++
An entire Order of Sisters of the Order of the Sacred Rose dying and ultimately destroying their base and everyone in it, who were sent to the Kaurava Campaign and killed by Vance Stubbs after they refused to go away. Unlike the majority of the entries on this list, the Sisters led a valiant defense action, crippling the Imperial Guard forces for weeks and hamstringing the Imperium's campaign to reclaim the worlds of the Kaurava system. Also, unlike the others on this list, the Sisters were the aggressors. So this doesn't really count as much.
An entire convent of Sisters killed by Grey Knights, their bodies violated and their blood applied to the Grey Knights' armor, so the Grey Knights can be immune to demonic corruption, even though they were already immune to all forms of demonic corruption, due to the fact that they are the Imperium's daemon killers. See also: Khornate Knights.
Necron Phaeron Trazyn the Infinite keeps the head of Sebastian Thor mounted on his wall like a Deer Trophy.
Good Faith and Fire
Hammer and Anvil
So, let's let the tally begin. Please be specific with examples. None of the "Oh, I read a story once on the internet a few years back, but don't remember where..." stuff.
As a sidenote to the "Blade of St. Joachim" - it is perhaps interesting to note that the name "Joachim" appeared once before, in a White Dwarf accompanying the 13th Black Crusade global campaign, where an event card reported a wave of renewed faith as one of the Ministorum envoys, a cleric named Joachim, was said to have suddenly developed the power to calm a Warp Storm, thus allowing Imperial forces to proceed with reinforcing the besieged sector. This ability was also said to have been displayed by only a single person before, the blessed Sebastian Thor.
It could be mere coincidence, but I like to believe that GW was dropping these names there intentionally. I only noticed it because I read both sources within only a few days of time difference, otherwise I'd probably have forgotten that detail.
MWHistorian wrote:(taken from 1d4 chan)
This right here is your first mistake.
I've actually addressed that very list and its many mistakes before. Ties in perfectly with what Troike said about "the internet" and how it twists the facts, though.
The only thing that saddens me is that my efforts in correcting such things, as well as continuously pointing out that as per its very writers, 40k does not have a uniform canon, remain largely fruitless as I cannot compete with much more established opinions, let alone popular websites such as /tg/ and its wiki (I could rewrite the article, but that would likely only trigger an edit war ).
Anyways ... I could probably help in gathering a list, or make one myself, but I'd focus entirely on GW fluff and dismiss any and all non-studio sources as they are (a) largely contradictory and thus incompatible, and (b) do not always accurately represent the GW studio's own views on the Sisterhood. So, I'm not sure how "accepted" it would end up to be.
Oh? I've been hearing these stories for a long time. If they're wrong I'd love to correct it.
Right then. Let's find correct versions of cannon fluff and see if they really are as beat upon by GW as I believed them to be.
Eh... Not really sure about using 1d4chan as a source. It's not really unbiased or particularly factual in places A few things from that list:
99% of sisters in the galaxy vanishing due to to a retcon in the two whole paragraphs of fluff given them by the 5e rulebook. Considered by most to be proof of what was to come, considering the clown-car that is the current Sisters of Battle army on tabletop.
Really not sure about this one. It sounds a lot like an exageration. Anybody know what actually happened?
A whole shrine-world of Sisters killed by Chaos Dreadnought. Said dread shrugs off meltas, meltabombs and multiple Exorcist volleys, a Living Saint even gives up her divinity to stop it, and fails. It's destroyed instantly when a Marine throws a hammer at it. We are not making this crap up.- ++Hell Brute, not a dreadnought++
Apparently this isn't quite what happened, and the Living Saint giving up her divinity did contribute to stopping it. Again, not sure since I haven't seen the source myself. Though I'll still count it as bad for now.
An entire Order of Sisters of the Order of the Sacred Rose dying and ultimately destroying their base and everyone in it, who were sent to the Kaurava Campaign and killed by Vance Stubbs after they refused to go away. Unlike the majority of the entries on this list, the Sisters led a valiant defense action, crippling the Imperial Guard forces for weeks and hamstringing the Imperium's campaign to reclaim the worlds of the Kaurava system. Also, unlike the others on this list, the Sisters were the aggressors. So this doesn't really count as much.
I'd call this neutral at worst. As a game, the exact details of how it played out are going to be ambigous. Like the text itself says, the Sisters likely put up a good fight.
Necron Phaeron Trazyn the Infinite keeps the head of Sebastian Thor mounted on his wall like a Deer Trophy.
Thor was not a Battle Sister.
Anyway after rounding up the good fluff, from my POV it stand at something like this:
Bad:
- Part of the Dialogus Order in Daemonifuge being corrupted.
- A whole Order Mind Controlled by one chaos Psyker. Goto book.
- Sons of Malice background
- whole shrine-world of Sisters killed by Chaos Dreadnought. (though I doubt it was a "whole Shrine world". Probably just more hyperbole).
- The Bloodtide.
- Duty Calls (Mitchell writes Sisters as fanatical idiots, charging alone into a Tyranid swarm and being easily duped by a radical Inquisitor. Very much an example of where Lynata's view on handling fluff becomes quite appealing...)
- Cain's Last Stand
- Nurgle Orks defeat a shrine world. From a recent Chaos codex, IIRC.
Good:
- Faith and Fire
- Hammer and Anvil
- Red and Black (James Sawllow audiobook, prequel to Faith and Fire)
- Their history (hold off four SM chapters with Tech Guard support, slay one of the Imperium's greatest tyrants after seeing through his deception)
- The San Leor Massacre (annihilate Red Corsair attack)
- The War of Piety (successfully raid a Daemon world for holy artifacts)
- The Defense of Dimmamar (syccessfully defend Sebastian Thor's homeworld against an Eldar attack)
- The Promethean War (fight alongside Salamanders againsr Chaos, Celestine slays a Deamon Prince)
- The Martyrdom of Praxedes (Canoness kills a Hive Tyrant while she is dying, turns the tide of the battle for the Sisters)
- The Death of Antagonis (Canoness Setheno is badass as feth)
- The Legion of the Damned (Space Marines Battles book) (Sisters kill a Confessor who is trying to bypass the Decree Passive)
- Blood of Asaheim (I've been told the the Sisters in this are portrayed well, being tough soldiers making the best of their situation against a strong enemy force)
- Grey Knights (Ben Counter Novel) (Sisters put up a fight against GKs before realising they've been tricked and teaming up with the GKs to kill the big bad)
- Daemonifuge (Ephrael Stern!)
- The Avignor Uprising (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Avignor_Uprising#.UflVHm3BzAw)
- Sister Martika (see Lynata's post)
- Sister Anastasia (ditto)
And I'm sure there's even more that I don't know about. But anyway, as it stands it's looking good for the Sisters. Fantasy Flight's SoB expansion probably has lots of good stuff to say about them, but I'm not at all familiar with the material, so I won't count it here.
Lynata wrote: (I could rewrite the article, but that would likely only trigger an edit war ).
Well... Somebody may have been making small edits to that list recently to make it more factual, and has yet to have any edits reverted...
Troike wrote:Really not sure about this one. It sounds a lot like an exageration. Anybody know what actually happened?
I've addressed those points in the post I linked in my last reply here. On this specific example, it would seem to refer to the 5E rulebook having made the mistake of only mentioning three of the Major Orders Militant instead of six. Which isn't even 50%, keeping in mind that there are still the Minor Orders as well. And as I pointed out in the linked post, this was a one-off mistake not repeated in any of the succeeding sources.
Alternatively, it's just someone who assumes there must be gazillions of Battle Sisters because that's how it comes across in the licensed material such as various novels, computer games or FFG's RPG (or even just their own mind, because only SPESS MEHREENS are allowed to be rare and elite), and then being shocked when GW itself sticks to the much lower numbers they have published again and again for more than a decade.
Unfortunately, it just seems as if the average fan is much more acquainted with various novels and other outsourced origins of fluff rather than what the codices and rulebooks from the GW main studio are propagating. As in, they don't even notice the contradictions, and then go crazy when a new major GW release apparently "retcons" something they've read in some freelance author's novel.
Troike wrote:Well... Somebody may have been making small edits to that list recently to make it more factual, and has yet to have any edits reverted...
I may just have to check it out again one of these days.
[edit] As I said, I'd only make a list of GW fluff, but if you want to include Black Library material too, it might be worth checking out the "At Gaius Point" short story from ADB.
I've not read it myself yet, but it supposedly features a couple Battle Sisters tracking down a Fleshtearer after the Gaius Point massacre, and the book's author seems less biased than most as far as non-SM factions as well as female characters are concerned. I enjoyed the short conversations I had with him here on dakka (in a thread titled Sisters of Battle in BL fiction no less).
Now that I've just seen the story is also available as an individual e-book short, I may just end up buying it. So far, I've resisted because I didn't want to buy a whole anthology just for a single tale.
Lynata wrote: Unfortunately, it just seems as if the average fan is much more acquainted with various novels and other outsourced origins of fluff rather than what the codices and rulebooks from the GW main studio are propagating. As in, they don't even notice the contradictions, and then go crazy when a new major GW release apparently "retcons" something they've read in some freelance author's novel.
Yeah, this really is a big problem with the public image of the Sisters. How many 40K fans have read about the Sisters in something like a Cain book or an incorrect internet source, and not a proper Codex material? This sort of thing is why a wealth of fluff really is an essential for a new SoB codex.
Lynata wrote: I may just have to check it out again one of these days.
Dunno what it as like when you last looked, but it's actually not too bad these days. Mostly, it expresses upset at their treatment as an army. And more recently, myself and others have been making positive edits to improve and add to it.
Watch the intro for the 'soulstorm' video game. The video of sisters showing up to relieve the guard against the tau is fairly impressive. I'm sure they gained a lot of support from that game alone
Contrary to what others may think, I believe dropping their links to the Ordo Hereticus was bad. It's jarring if before the Grey Knights Codex, you were used to the idea of the Ordo Hereticus monitoring the Ecclesiarchy and utilising the Sororitas. Especially jarring if you played an Inquisitor with the Sisters and then found all Inquisitors are now in the GK Codex (although let's have some pity for the Ordo Xenos fans who only have Xenos Inquisitors and have to work with conversions).
Something else that would make the holy-trinity so to speak: Adeptus Arbites. I believe in a past Codex, you could give Storm Troopers shotguns and field them as Arbiters. It would be nice to bring the Arbites back and have them working with the Inquisition and the Sororitas.
An entire convent of Sisters killed by Grey Knights, their bodies violated and their blood applied to the Grey Knights' armor, so the Grey Knights can be immune to demonic corruption, even though they were already immune to all forms of demonic corruption, due to the fact that they are the Imperium's daemon killers. See also: Khornate Knights
Didn't happen like this, and the GK are immune to the corruption of Chaos because they know (and are willing to perform) the rites and rituals that make them so.
The scene in which this event takes place could, obviously, have been written *much* better, and portrayed the Sisters as willing martyrs, giving their life's blood so that the GK could triumph, grandsons of the God-Emperor that they are, but the core concepts behind the event are not that bad.
Sturmtruppen wrote:Contrary to what others may think, I believe dropping their links to the Ordo Hereticus was bad.
Nothing in the fluff has changed - only the focus has shifted back to the Sisters' original representation as holy crusaders and defenders of the faith.
I believe this to be a good thing, for the Inquisition parts simply "stole" room that could have otherwise been used for more SoB background and rules/units.
At the same time, however, I believe and continue to point out that Inquisitors and their troops - including ISTs and Deathwatch - should become their own "mini armylist" that may reinforce any Imperial army as an add-on, because that's quite simply how they operate in the fluff.
That being said, nothing prevents someone attached to the old Witch Hunter lists from running an SoB army with GK allies, using the latter to field an Inquisitor and ISTs/Arbites (by using Henchmen).
Troike wrote:Dunno what it as like when you last looked, but it's actually not too bad these days.
Ah, it was pretty much dominated by a LOL -4 STR and GB2KITCHEN attitude. Not a pretty sight. And I say that whilst having spent a lot of time on /tg/ back then as that place spawned a lot of funny stuff. The comics from Mr.Culexus, to name just one example. It's pretty much unavoidable that such a place also attracts people with rather hostile opinions - but then again, dakka is no different, so I guess it's just a trait of the hobby, representing one of the many issues of modern society and magnified by the internet's power to grant anonymity.
Psienesis wrote: Didn't happen like this, and the GK are immune to the corruption of Chaos because they know (and are willing to perform) the rites and rituals that make them so.
The scene in which this event takes place could, obviously, have been written *much* better, and portrayed the Sisters as willing martyrs, giving their life's blood so that the GK could triumph, grandsons of the God-Emperor that they are, but the core concepts behind the event are not that bad.
One thing I quite like about it is that it, probably unintentionally, says that Sisters are the best in the Imperium at resisting Daemonic corruption, bar blanks. Some of the Sisters in it were pure enough to be simply immune, after all, while the Knights needed to use their blood to get that same protection.
But yes, I would accept it were the Sisters willing martyrs. As is the Knights just march in a slaughter potential allies for a blood ritual without so much as a word.
Lynata wrote: Ah, it was pretty much dominated by a LOL -4 STR and GB2KITCHEN attitude. Not a pretty sight.
It's not so bad these days. While there's definetely some immaturity present, mostly it's respectful to the army and actively bemoans their current state. Hell, one part even pokes fun at the way some internet people sexualise them. And obviously there's the smut in the gallery, but it's a chan wiki, so I guess that's to be expected.
I wouldn't consider ANY of the Age of Apostasy events "good" for the Sisters- if anything it portrayed them in the worst possible light- ignorant, mindlessly faithful fools.
First you have them being duped into becoming Vandire's slaves, because they're collectively too stupid to know what a force field is. Following this stupidity, they slaughter innocent billions in Vandire's name, never once questioning that maybe he was an insane megalomaniac who was tearing the Imperium apart. Once the Space Marines get involved, they put up a defense of said megalomaniac which, at least going off of the description of events from Blood of Martyrs, was failing, and Dominica only ends up seeing Vandire for who he was because she got some sense slapped into her by the Adeptus Custodes, and then the Emperor himself.
They spent a hundred years being a madman's sheep, then basically got saved by Space Marines. Yeah, not the Sisters' best moment.
edit- Also, I notice that the fluff where Mortarion and his army of Nurgle-Orks overwhelms and eats an entire Shrine world's worth of Sororitas in 20 hours, is missing from those lists above. Trololo
BlaxicanX wrote: I wouldn't consider ANY of the Age of Apostasy events "good" for the Sisters- if anything it portrayed them in the worst possible light- ignorant, mindlessly faithful fools.
True, but only to the point where they believed that Vandire was a prophet. Once thet stopped believing that, they were all too happy to gun him down.
BlaxicanX wrote: First you have them being duped into becoming Vandire's slaves, because they're collectively too stupid to know what a force field is.
Not stupid, primitive. They were from a world where that technology was not known of. If anything, this only casts Vandire in a bad light for exploiting their ignorance. Of course a bunch or deeply religious people from a primitive world would see a forcefield as a miracle.
BlaxicanX wrote: Following this stupidity, they slaughter innocent billions in Vandire's name, never once questioning that maybe he was an insane megalomaniac who was tearing the Imperium apart.
What Imperial faction hasn't slaughtered "innocent" civilians without caring? That's standard stuff in this setting, really.
BlaxicanX wrote: Once the Space Marines get involved, they put up a defense of said megalomaniac which, at least going off of the description of events from Blood of Martyrs, was failing,
That's just what Blood of Martyrs says, and I recall Lynata saying that it has some issues in adhering to GW fluff. GW fluff has them putting up a strong defence, losing many soldiers but nonetheless denying a supposedly much superior force.
BlaxicanX wrote: and Dominica only ends up seeing Vandire for who he was because she got some sense slapped into her by the Adeptus Custodes, and then the Emperor himself.
Uh, nobody "slapped" any sense into her. What happened is that the Custodes came to them, dropped their weapons and made an "impassioned plea" to the Sisters to give up on Vandire. When they refused, the lead Custode actually left his men as hostages and escorted Dominica and her five Sisters to the Emperor's throne room. It doesn't actually say what happened in there, so we can't really comment on it properly. Certainly it says nothing about the Emperor "slapping" sense into her.
BlaxicanX wrote: They spent a hundred years being a madman's sheep, then basically got saved by Space Marines. Yeah, not the Sisters' best moment.
What? Space Marines didn't save them. They held off four chapters of Space Marines, got the Custodes themselves to try to talk them down and were the ones to kill Vandire. I'm not seeing how anybody "saved" them.
BlaxicanX wrote: edit- Also, I notice that the fluff where Mortarion and his army of Nurgle-Orks overwhelms and eats an entire Shrine world's worth of Sororitas in 20 hours, is missing from those lists above. Trololo
I did not know about that. But still, the list so far seems mostly in favour of the Sisters.
Not stupid, primitive. They were from a world where that technology was not known of. If anything, this only casts Vandire in a bad light for exploiting their ignorance. Of course a bunch or deeply religious people from a primitive world would see a forcefield as a miracle.
... he came down from a space ship. A flying metal contraption that can leave atmosphere and travel through space is possible, but a lasbolt (read: a laser) not killing someone can only be an act of God? Really?
What Imperial faction hasn't slaughtered "innocent" civilians without caring? That's standard stuff in this setting, really.
And it's never a good thing. This doesn't absolve them of anything. lol
That's just what Blood of Martyrs says, and I recall Lynata saying that it has some issues in adhering to GW fluff. GW fluff has them putting up a strong defence, losing many soldiers but nonetheless denying a supposedly much superior force.
Lynata is the first person to tell you (when it suits his agenda to do so) that all40K sources are inconstant and which one you choose is up to personal interpretation. If you have sources saying the Sisters were handing the Space Marines/Mechanicum their collective asses, feel free to provide it.
Uh, nobody "slapped" any sense into her. What happened is that the Custodes came to them, dropped their weapons and made an "impassioned plea" to the Sisters to give up on Vandire. When they refused, the lead Custode actually left his men as hostages and escorted Dominica and her five Sisters to the Emperor's throne room. It doesn't actually say what happened in there, so we can't really comment on it properly. Certainly it says nothing about the Emperor "slapping" sense into her.
You either don't know what figurative language means, or you're pulling a Melissia. Either way, stahp it.
What? Space Marines didn't save them. They held off four chapters of Space Marines, got the Custodes themselves to try to talk them down and were the ones to kill Vandire. I'm not seeing how anybody "saved" them.
They didn't "get" the Custodes to talk to them, and trying to give the SIsters credit for killing Vandire is laughable. The Astartes and Mechanicum were closing in on the Imperial palace, and the Sisters were ready to die to a woman blindly defending their insane leader. The Custodes leader coems to Dominicia and is like "Dominica, Vandire is insane, please stop defending him." And she's like "No." He's like "please?" and she's like "No." So he sighs and takes her to the Emperor, after which point she says "amg Custodes leader, you were 100% right and I should have listened to you. Gonna kill Vandire now with my 4000 troops k." And thus ended the Age of Apostasy. Trying to make it seem like the Sisters came out the heroes in that scenario is... odd.
That origin story isn't necessarily heroic or stupid. It just is. You have an organization that will fanatically follow who they think is right without question. They just needed to be turned in the right direction and when that happened, you get a zealous fighting force on your side. And the countless miracles that happen only reaffirm their fanatic faith. The technological difference between a society with las guns and force fields is huge. (Heck, we're close to las guns now.) Sure, they had las guns and maybe a ship or two, but force fields are a couple steps above that on the tech level chart. So, they get a pass there.
But in general. The list of pro and con fluff seems to be in the 'pro' category so far.
BlaxicanX wrote: ... he came down from a space ship. A flying metal contraption that can leave atmosphere and travel through space is possible, but a lasbolt (read: a laser) not killing someone can only be an act of God? Really?
The fluff does have Vandire boasting that the Sisters did not know of forcefield techology specifically. They didn't know about it, ergo they interpreted it as a miracle.
BlaxicanX wrote: And it's never a good thing. This doesn't absolve them of anything. lol
Never said it was a good thing, just that it's not unusual in this setting. You can't exactly level it as a criticism when pretty much every Imperial faction, and most non-Imperial factions go around doing this sort of thing too. All factions have innocent blood on their hands, you might as well go around criticising them all for it.
BlaxicanX wrote: Lynata is the first person to tell you (when it suits his agenda to do so) that all 40K sources are inconstant and which one you choose is up to personal interpretation. If you have sources saying the Sisters were handing the Space Marines/Mechanicum their collective asses, feel free to provide it.
The newst SoB codex specifically says that the Sisters held out for months, and "withstood every assault", and that it only ended when the Custodes got involved. This does not at all paint a picture of a defense which is "failing".
BlaxicanX wrote: You either don't know what figurative language means, or you're pulling a Melissia. Either way, stahp it.
I'm aware that you weren't being literal, but the way you phrased it made it sound like Dominica was aggressively forced to see the folly of serving Vandire. I just went through what actually happened to demonstrate that this was explicitly not the case.
BlaxicanX wrote: They didn't "get" the Custodes to talk to them,
They forced the hands of an organisation famed for its seclusion and lack of involvement in the Imperium's business. The "got" the Custodes to come and talk to them in that the Custodes viewed them as dangerous enough to warrent talking to rather than just waiting for the Marines and Mechanicus to wipe them out.
BlaxicanX wrote: and trying to give the SIsters credit for killing Vandire is laughable.
Not really, a Sister was the one who killed him. I'm not seeing why they shouldn't get the credit for it, Dominica made the decision to renounce her loyalty to Vandire and end his life.
BlaxicanX wrote: The Astartes and Mechanicum were closing in on the Imperial palace, and the Sisters were ready to die to a woman blindly defending their insane leader.
Honestly, I'm just hearing praise here. Implacable soldiers, willing to fight to the last in the name of their god! (their god being Big E, not Vandire)
BlaxicanX wrote: The Custodes leader coems to Dominicia and is like "Dominica, Vandire is insane, please stop defending him." And she's like "No." He's like "please?" and she's like "No." So he sighs and takes her to the Emperor, after which point she says "amg Custodes leader, you were 100% right and I should have listened to you. Gonna kill Vandire now with my 4000 troops k." And thus ended the Age of Apostasy.
You're twisting those events just a bit. The Custode never "sighed", he was very respectful towards the Sisters, going so far as to leave them his men as hostages and taking them directly to the Emperor. Dominca never said anything like that to the Custodes leader, once she was convinced to renounce Vandire she went straight to her Sisters to break the news, before killing Vandire.
BlaxicanX wrote: Trying to make it seem like the Sisters came out the heroes in that scenario is... odd.
Not at all. They successfully defended their fortress against an supposedly superior force, and finally slew one of the Imperiun's greatest tyrants after seeing through his lies and regaining their identity. They then went on to be the Ecclesiarchy's army, having learned from the experience and taking care to police the Ecclesiarchy and be wary of those who claim to be prophets.
Edit: one other thing I wanted to mention. Them turning on Vandire, and in other fluff other holy leaders who decieve them, is actually a very nice part of their fluff, IMO. Yes they are fanatically devoted to their relgion, quite single-mindedly, but that's a double-edged sword for any would-be manipulators. Yes, if you're an important but corrupt holy man you can likely manipulate them into carrying out your own nefarious agenda, but the moment they suspect that such a holy man is manipulating them for devious purposes, they turn on the manipulator with righteous fury.
Spartak wrote: AV 12 flyer with hover mode
dual TL multimelta's
melta ish bomb that drops with a flame template, like napalm... smells like, victory
Since GW probably isn't willing to port the Avenger over from FW, the Lightning Fighter from Soulstorm could maybe be this. Though obviously retooled a bit so it' fits your description a bit better. Whatever it is, a flyer with meltas and melta bombs would be just glorious.
Troike wrote: The fluff does have Vandire boasting that the Sisters did not know of forcefield techology specifically. They didn't know about it, ergo they interpreted it as a miracle.
Okay, so you agree with me, that they were collectively stupid enough to fall for his ploy.
Never said it was a good thing, just that it's not unusual in this setting. You can't exactly level it as a criticism when pretty much every Imperial faction, and most non-Imperial factions go around doing this sort of thing too. All factions have innocent blood on their hands, you might as well go around criticising them all for it.
The majority of them don't do so at the behest of the villain who tricked them into giving him their loyalty. Those that do, get called out for it as well.
The newst SoB codex specifically says that the Sisters held out for months, and "withstood every assault", and that it only ended when the Custodes got involved. This does not at all paint a picture of a defense which is "failing".
Providing the length of the conflict doesn't contradict anything I said, nor the FFG's descriptions of events, which is that by the time the custodians intervened the Astartes and the Mechanicum were closing in for the kill and Vandire's troops were being wiped out.
I'm aware that you weren't being literal, but the way you phrased it made it sound like Dominica was aggressively forced to see the folly of serving Vandire. I just went through what actually happened to demonstrate that this was explicitly not the case.
If the Custodes and the Emperor hadn't made their appeals to her, she would have died defending Vandire, because she and the rest of her kin lack the independent thinking to realize Vandire was a fool themselves. So yeah, that is explicitly what happened.
They forced the hands of an organisation famed for its seclusion and lack of involvement in the Imperium's business. The "got" the Custodes to come and talk to them in that the Custodes viewed them as dangerous enough to warrent talking to rather than just waiting for the Marines and Mechanicus to wipe them out.
Lol, I'd like you to prove that the Custodes only intervened because of how "dangerous" the Sisters were.
Not really, a Sister was the one who killed him. I'm not seeing why they shouldn't get the credit for it, Dominica made the decision to renounce her loyalty to Vandire and end his life.
Because they wouldn't have killed him at all if the Custodes, at the advice of the Astartes no less, hadn't intervened.
Honestly, I'm just hearing praise here. Implacable soldiers, willing to fight to the last in the name of their god! (their god being Big E, not Vandire)
I like Al Queida too, I guess.
You're twisting those events just a bit. The Custode never "sighed", he was very respectful towards the Sisters, going so far as to leave them his men as hostages and taking them directly to the Emperor. Dominca never said anything like that to the Custodes leader, once she was convinced to renounce Vandire she went straight to her Sisters to break the news, before killing Vandire.
lol
Not at all. They successfully defended their fortress against an supposedly superior force, and finally slew one of the Imperiun's greatest tyrants after seeing through his lies and regaining their identity. They then went on to be the Ecclesiarchy's army, having learned from the experience and taking care to police the Ecclesiarchy and be wary of those who claim to be prophets.
Sure, so long as you completely ignore every single factor that led to them surviving the scenario and slaying the tyrant..
Edit: one other thing I wanted to mention. Them turning on Vandire, and in other fluff other holy leaders who decieve them, is actually a very nice part of their fluff, IMO. Yes they are fanatically devoted to their relgion, quite single-mindedly, but that's a double-edged sword for any would-be manipulators. Yes, if you're an important but corrupt holy man you can likely manipulate them into carrying out your own nefarious agenda, but the moment they suspect that such a holy man is manipulating them for devious purposes, they turn on the manipulator with righteous fury.
I don't mind them being robots. I don't even care that they're basically just robots who lack the ability to question their faith. I just recognize that being a robot isn't "a good showing".
HQ: Blind Saint - Model wise would have a cloth across the eyes, and probably some saint purity feeling, wings always nice . Faith wise could give sight to 'brighten' night fighting for your squad as a wargear ability and could then roll to give guidance gaining an extra 6" range to the squad she joined., If the faith could be cast against an enemy could blind an opponent causing night fighting for their next turn to X squad.
Troops: "Terminator" like squad for sisters, their terminator feeling would be toughness 4, but they'd be enveloped in a spirit/faith. Spirit squadron. They would retain the 3+ save but gain +1 to their invulnerable due to their spirit. Perhaps more close combat oriented.
Fast Attack: A vehicle type unit would be fun. I could even see like a 'guardian' or other spirit/angel. Unlike the seraphims these would actually be the ones they call upon. Small very elite squadrons.
Gonna have to side with Troike here. Stupidity and lack of knowledge are not the same thing, unless you're trying real hard to see it that way. It also should be noted that San Leor, at that time, is said to have been a "backwater Agri World", and as if this was not enough to limit the distribution of any available knowledge about the wider Imperium, the Daughters of the Emperor lived in secluded isolation (a tradition its convents maintain to the present day), with Vandire finding the doors of their temple barred to him. I wouldn't even assume they saw his ship, especially not since Vandire landed miles away and made a detour through a bunch of villages and farms to receive (forced) praise from the local populace before finally arriving at the temple site. GW fluff further mentions that Vandire's gambit with the forcefield was only discovered "decades later".
I don't see a reason to fault the proto-Sororitas for something that the vast majority of the Imperial populace is experiencing. Including certain Space Marines.
As for the siege, WD #293's Liber Sororitas has an article from Andy Hoare going a bit into detail on what transpired there:
"Opposed now by the combined forces of four Space Marine Chapters and a vast contingent of the Adeptus Mechanicus, Vandire was nonetheless blinded to the possibility of his own downfall. Though his forces were severely depleted and his officers were deserting him at every turn, the Brides of the Emperor stood firm by his side, and so the siege dragged on, neither side able to break it."
I assume that, eventually, they would have surely been overwhelmed, as unlike the attackers the defenders had no way of getting reinforcements and every single casualty would weaken their defense further. Nevertheless, I believe it to be a respectable feat of arms for the Sisters to have stood their ground for so long, given that "for months, the combined forces of the Tech-Guard and Space Marines tried to breach its walls, only to be constantly thwarted by the Brides of the Emperor", as the 2E Codex tells us.
Ultimately, they would have fallen, given how unlikely it is that the attackers would simply withdraw and abandon the siege. Yet at the same time, GW fluff certainly does not make it sound as if this moment was anywhere close when Dominica finally lobbed her mad master's head off. Rather, a "fight to the last (wo)man" would have taken several months more. The Custodes simply intervened to cut short an unnecessary conflict, before any more loyal Imperial servants from both sides would be killed for the aspirations of a mad man, and to better preserve the ancient buildings (one of which housed their eternal lord and master Himself) that took quite a pounding during the siege.
Troike wrote:Since GW probably isn't willing to port the Avenger over from FW, the Lightning Fighter from Soulstorm could maybe be this.
BlaxicanX wrote: The majority of them don't do so at the behest of the villain who tricked them into giving him their loyalty. Those that do, get called out for it as well.
How's it any different to a guard regiment killing off civilians in the Emperor's name? Or a Marine chapter purging civilians? End result is the same, soldiers killing civilians because they think that they're serving their god in doing so.
BlaxicanX wrote: If the Custodes and the Emperor hadn't made their appeals to her, she would have died defending Vandire, because she and the rest of her kin lack the independent thinking to realize Vandire was a fool themselves. So yeah, that is explicitly what happened.
Yes they were dedicated to Vandire (whilst still under the impression that he was a prophet) but nobody "slapped sense" into her. You're phrasing it like she was verbally assaulted, when in reality the Custode was outright said to make an "impassioned plea", and gives her access to a place that the Custodes are kinda particular about who they let in. And again, we don't know what happened in the Throne room, so we can't really say that Big E definetely spoke to her himself.
BlaxicanX wrote: Lol, I'd like you to prove that the Custodes only intervened because of how "dangerous" the Sisters were.
Why else would he intervene? If the Sisters were about to fail ike you're saying, then why would the lead Custode come and talk them down rather than let the Marines and Tech Guard finish them?
BlaxicanX wrote: Because they wouldn't have killed him at all if the Custodes, at the advice of the Astartes no less, hadn't intervened.
But Dominica was the one who made the decision to ultimately go kill him, after she went to the Throne room. Using your logic, we could give credit to the Emperor for creating the Custodes, or the ships who brought the Marines and Tech Guards down. Ultimately, Dominca was the one who reviewed the evidence and made the decision to kill Vandire.
...A key difference here being that Al Queida aren't fictional...
Why would you say this? Martyrdom and unwavering faith are a central part of who the Sisters are. Why would you try to cast this as a negative by comparing them to real world terrorist group who have hurt real people? Honestly, I don't see how you could like the Sisters at all if you have such a low opinion of their central themes.
I just don't have a response to this one. You've conclusively disproven what I was saying.
BlaxicanX wrote: Sure, so long as you completely ignore every single factor that led to them surviving the scenario and slaying the tyrant.
Which makes their slaying of him all the more climactic, IMO. They finally see Vandire for what he is, and personally end him. And they learn from the experience.
BlaxicanX wrote: I don't mind them being robots. I don't even care that they're basically just robots who lack the ability to question their faith. I just recognize that being a robot isn't "a good showing".
They're not "robots", they can make independant decisions and catch on to when they're being manipulated. And why would they question their faith? Their whole thing is that they're devoted zealots. Would you rather we have Sisters who go around actively doubting the Emperor? Also, again, most Imperial factions do things because they think that their god approves, so by your logic, none of them have "a good showing".
That's one guy that just doesn't "get it." He seems to have nothing but disdain for the SOB yet posts like he's an expert on the subject. You've said your peace. No one agrees with you. Move on.
I didn't mean to imply that it was a prerequisite for liking the SoB, I just thought it was odd that somebody who had one was labelled as disliking them.
Sturmtruppen wrote: Contrary to what others may think, I believe dropping their links to the Ordo Hereticus was bad. It's jarring if before the Grey Knights Codex, you were used to the idea of the Ordo Hereticus monitoring the Ecclesiarchy and utilising the Sororitas. Especially jarring if you played an Inquisitor with the Sisters and then found all Inquisitors are now in the GK Codex (although let's have some pity for the Ordo Xenos fans who only have Xenos Inquisitors and have to work with conversions).
Something else that would make the holy-trinity so to speak: Adeptus Arbites. I believe in a past Codex, you could give Storm Troopers shotguns and field them as Arbiters. It would be nice to bring the Arbites back and have them working with the Inquisition and the Sororitas.
I am behind both these ideas, I was really bummed that the Inquisitors were replaced with the lame, incredibly overcosted pseudo-inquisitors we got in WD. Also, I quite liked the anti-heretical, anti-psyker mechanics that were in the old book, fluffy or no. Why couldn't the Inquisitors just be taken from Grey Knights proper? It's not like there aren't Techmarines or whatnot printed in every other book. I think a codex written with the aim of not using too much ink was already doomed to failure.
The old book with Inquisitors was also the only way to run a Genestealer Cult properly and not counts-as Chaos or Tyranids.
GW Codices became DeviantArt print compilations so gradually, I hardly even noticed...
Eh... as far as a Codex goes? I think we really need to get back to the C:WH/CH-era of stuff, simply updated to be on-par with the 6th Ed Meta, with expanded Faith Powers (actually, kind of re-do the whole Faith mechanics) and also add in a "Banner" system that provides a single Army-wide buff (or buff to all friendly units withing 24" or whatever) for as long as the Banner-bearer model is alive. This latter, especially, could be generated from a list, either paid for in points or generated randomly, which would allow players to depict the particular philosophy of a Minor Order. The Major Orders would have a specific Banner effect in keeping with their Codex lore.
I see the Sisters as a mid-range gunline army with effective CC units, when those CC units can be deployed properly. The Repentia Squads aren't meant to be marched up the field without cover into the face of armies with longer-ranged weapons, template weapons, and all that sort of thing.
I'd also apply AoF to individual units, but make the accumulation of Faith Points to be Army-wide, so that you can establish synergy between the different units, wherein the various valorous acts or martyring of some units bolsters the faith of the rest, allowing the controlling player to decide when and how that faith is expressed.
So, for example, my Repentia squads might have a "Swift and Sure Judgement" Faith Power, which costs, let's say, 3 Faith Points from the Army's pool, and grants them, say, +2d6" on a Charge, or "Avenge the Martyred" which grants the Repentia Squad "Preferred Enemy" against the enemy squad (or unit-type or Army-type) that inflicted casualties against them in the turn prior to activating that power. This could be explained, in and out of setting, as either divine intervention, or simply the Repentia being filled with such righteous fury and indignation that they become nearly super-human in their drive to cleanse the world of their enemies.
Meanwhile, a Retributor Squad could spend FP to invoke "Servant of the Righteous" which adds +1 S to their heavy weapons for a turn, or improves the AP, or something similar. This could be "magic bullets" or it could simply be superior training of the Sisterhood allowing them to maximize their wargear's potential.
... and of course we'd need better transports, a dedicated medium tank, a flyer or two, and a whole range of HQ options, ranging from various Canonesses to various Priests to Inquisitors of Ordo Hereticus. Plus... Frateris Militia in a Troops slot.
