So I did a lot of reading and looking around and there's a distinct possibility that advanced and complex machines like Titans, Baneblades, Land Raiders are in possession of a physical soul. As in they go to the warp when they die. I don't know exactly the pretenses that must be met to be in possession of a soul but everything living in 40k has a soul even daemons. The only thing that all of these have in common are sapience. Given that living things become daemons by showing off in a god's domain, and the presence of daemonic beasts, random animals might become daemons. So all that might be required to have a warp presence large enough to have a soul is personality,functioning thinking,& emotions. This would explain why rogue titans are referred to as corrupted because they actually are. Thoughts?

It would require one really strong machine spirit. The only example that comes to mind is the Titan Castigor. In most cases its just a Titan getting possessed by a deamon. The same thing can be seen on Chaos ships being possessed by a Deamon. That's what it means by corrupted, possessed by a Deamon from the warp. Or if there is no possesion it just means corrupted as in went over to the Dark Gods (corruption of all it/they stood for, think Chaos Marines).

The actual transformation of a machine spirit into a deamon is extremely rare. The Castigor is one of the few examples and this is really advanced tech of which Imperial Titans are just a shadow. Most machines arent sentient enough for this imo.
Edit: I dont think there is any possibility, something the size and power of a Titan as a Deamon would need ungodly amounts of warp energy to function in normal space, exactly one of the reasons the Deamon Primarchs dont go out much. It wouldnt work too well.

ThePrimordial wrote:Thoughts?

I'm thinking that you will see a lot of different ideas and interpretations all depending on where you do your reading.

To me, in almost all cases the "Machine Spirit" is simply superstition. Today's people's affinity to cursing or begging their computer, their car, or their TV when it does not work, dialed up to eleven and turned into a state religion for a dystopian future. More advanced technology in the setting, however, may actually have a "Machine Spirit" in a slightly truer sense, where a machine actually is capable of learning and self-governance - not due to some supernatural phenomenon, but simply due to the components used in its construction. When GW released a cross-section of a Land Raider, for example, there was a label "Machine Spirit" with an arrow to something that looked very much like a human brain in a jar wired into the vehicle's electronics.
It could be the Mechanicus' way to circumvent the AI ban, you know. After all, brains aren't artificial ...

Needless to say, however, you won't find something like this in, say, a lasgun or a voxcaster.

And of course this is just one of many possibilities, all of whom are equally valid.

 Lynata wrote:

ThePrimordial wrote:Thoughts?

I'm thinking that you will see a lot of different ideas and interpretations all depending on where you do your reading.

To me, in almost all cases the "Machine Spirit" is simply superstition. Today's people's affinity to cursing or begging their computer, their car, or their TV when it does not work, dialed up to eleven and turned into a state religion for a dystopian future. More advanced technology in the setting, however, may actually have a "Machine Spirit" in a slightly truer sense, where a machine actually is capable of learning and self-governance - not due to some supernatural phenomenon, but simply due to the components used in its construction. When GW released a cross-section of a Land Raider, for example, there was a label "Machine Spirit" with an arrow to something that looked very much like a human brain in a jar wired into the vehicle's electronics.
It could be the Mechanicus' way to circumvent the AI ban, you know. After all, brains aren't artificial ...

Needless to say, however, you won't find something like this in, say, a lasgun or a voxcaster.

And of course this is just one of many possibilities, all of whom are equally valid.

Large titans have very strange AI's that will do strange and mysterious things to protect their crew. Like firing all weapons when absolutely no power is remaining.
Machine Spirits regardless of interpretation aren't completely superstition.

Titans will do one thing in one book, and will be unable to do the same in another. This, too, is a matter of interpretation to begin with. Namely that of the author - or the reader, who has to decide whether to ignore or include said author's ideas into his or her own vision of the 41st millennium.

Aside from that, of course I would assume that (going by the fluff propagated by GW studio sources) Titans would be outfitted with similarly advanced command modules as a Land Raider - meaning, a cybernetic human brain capable of limited independent operation.

The superstition lies in the inability of the average human to discern between actual technology (such as a cybernetic brain) and mere belief that some small piece of equipment has a "soul". Which, of course, would be just as the Adeptus Mechanicus wants it, if their leaders can remember the truth at all rather than having fallen prey to their own organisation's propaganda.

 Lynata wrote:
Titans will do one thing in one book, and will be unable to do the same in another. This, too, is a matter of interpretation to begin with. Namely that of the author - or the reader, who has to decide whether to ignore or include said author's ideas into his or her own vision of the 41st millennium.

Basically, it's more than superstition for some authors and players, and it's just superstition for other authors and players. The latter will just have to fully ignore the more blatant implicational incidents to the former (Titanicus, Rynn's Might, Castigator Titan, etc) as not-canon-to-their-canon.

^ Said it with fewer words than I needed. Thank you.

 Lynata wrote:
The superstition lies in the inability of the average human

This is not one of those equally valid possibilities. They can be compared by their literary merits.

If, as you say, machines are only imputed their souls by humans, then the literary purpose of the machine spirit concept is to explore fetishization of technology or objects. It would be some kind of social criticism.

Those things exist, materialism and screeds against it are common topics.

However, in this setting there is a warp, and there are souls, and they are there to serve a literary purpose.

A battleship or the Rynn's Might has a more significant machine spirit than a toaster because it is more important than a toaster, and that has piss-all to do with cybernetics or automation. A space ship is hugely historically significant, because it evacuates refugees, it plants colonies, it saves planets from invasions, and people have lived and died on it for thousands of years. Rynn's Might killed that warboss in one of the most significant battles in history. Toasters and rifles are not usually as important, so they do not have the same machine spirits. However, if a soldier does all the rites to appease his rifle, then when it is time to go back in time to shoot the president, he is probably going to get the shooting part right. When a father devotes all his time and energy to making the toaster work because getting the toast right is the only thing he can do for his consumptive daughter, the toaster will have a blasted good machine spirit; it has piss all to do with electronics.

pelicaniforce wrote:This is not one of those equally valid possibilities.

And why (or even how) would that be?

pelicaniforce wrote:If, as you say, machines are only imputed their souls by humans, then the literary purpose of the machine spirit concept is to explore fetishization of technology or objects. It would be some kind of social criticism.

It is that, as well as (and I think this is the much stronger origin) GW's inclination to draw upon a lot of real life aspects and go "tongue in cheek" on them. And of course to create a dystopian setting where technology is mystified rather than being understood.

You can take all the fluff about the Imperium at face value and believe that the Emperor actually is a real god and that the Space Marines are just too stubborn and stupid to understand this, just like you can believe that there actually is an artificial "soul" in every kind of machine, right up to someone's wrist watch.

Or you can treat this as the results of millennia of social and technological regression, a setting where superstitious people are misled by state-controlled religion preaching lies as a means of control, and these having become so ingrained in Imperial culture that the ones controlling the masses have long since started to believe them themselves.

Both are valid approaches to the various details in the background.

pelicaniforce wrote:However, in this setting there is a warp, and there are souls, and they are there to serve a literary purpose.
A battleship or the Rynn's Might has a more significant machine spirit than a toaster because it is more important than a toaster, and that has piss-all to do with cybernetics or automation. A space ship is hugely historically significant, because it evacuates refugees, it plants colonies, it saves planets from invasions, and people have lived and died on it for thousands of years. Rynn's Might killed that warboss in one of the most significant battles in history. Toasters and rifles are not usually as important, so they do not have the same machine spirits. However, if a soldier does all the rites to appease his rifle, then when it is time to go back in time to shoot the president, he is probably going to get the shooting part right. When a father devotes all his time and energy to making the toaster work because getting the toast right is the only thing he can do for his consumptive daughter, the toaster will have a blasted good machine spirit; it has piss all to do with electronics.

This is another valid interpretation, but I don't see what this has to do with my opinion ... other than being different.

What about an element of both? Since humans are all (a bit) psychic, certainly compared to Tau, there may be some gestalt psychic effect which really does empower machine spirits... sometimes. Just not as regularily or reliably as with the ever superiour greenskins.

As an aside, although again with the "you can just take it as not-canon-to-your-canon" disclaimer (though this one's more difficult because it's actually portrayed on the tabletop rules in a way), Dreadclaw drop pods ended up developing their own sentience, apparently, and were corrupted to Chaos. It's unknown whether the chicken came before the egg though (Did they gain sentience on their own and then get corrupted to chaos, or did they gain sentience BECAUSE they were corrupted to chaos?)

Graphite wrote:What about an element of both? Since humans are all (a bit) psychic, certainly compared to Tau, there may be some gestalt psychic effect which really does empower machine spirits... sometimes. Just not as regularily or reliably as with the ever superiour greenskins.

So, sort of like the Ork's Waaagh field? I suppose it could then also be used to explain various other "miracles" in Imperial history, and the Techpriest abilities in FFG's line of 40k RPGs.

It's not an interpretation I am personally following (though I could actually see it apply in exceptional cases), but I don't see why it shouldn't be just as valid.

TiamatRoar wrote:though this one's more difficult because it's actually portrayed on the tabletop rules in a way

I like to use GW's TT rules as a basis for the fluff, too. That being said, what are you referring to specifically? Most of the rules are fairly ambiguous as to the exact origin of their effect (example: SoB Acts of Faith)

TiamatRoar wrote:It's unknown whether the chicken came before the egg though

Yeah, that doesn't really help either, then. There are a lot of cases where we can see the Warp twisting technological equipment, perhaps "possessing it", in a fashion. Wasn't there a CSM Legion that has its members "fuse" with the armour too?
It's certainly an interesting topic to discuss.

Machine spirits have a mechanical and an organic component to them in most of the fluff that I've read that references them.

Smaller machine spirits like those in weaponry are usually based on animal organic material. One example given was that the machine spirits in bolters were based on various avian species, as their brains are capable of rapid visual processing for things like targeting and Friend or Foe recognition.

Which also explains a certain 'personality' being registered in different machine spirits. But as with regular animals, these aren't sentient and probably don't register large enough in the warp to retain any conciousness once they're destroyed.

But the more powerful machine spirits like those in Titans or Land Raiders are indeed probably based on humans to circumvent the Abominable Intelligence ban while still allowing some measure of sentience.

I would say that some things certainly do have "Machine spirits" if you take that to mean they have some sort of AI within them. Examples: numerous mentions in the novel Titanicus and the Titan comic books of how the Titan itself has a personality that the Princeps must control, then of course there is the mention of the Land Raider Rynn's Might in the Space Marine Codex (its machine spirit went on a rampage).

The Titan comics also flat-out say that when a Princeps has spent a long time serving, an imprint of their personality will remain within the machine's "Memories." That is probably why corrupted Titans end up with evil machine spirits, they have been poisoned by contact with corrupted human minds. It also seems from the above mentioned books that the Titan personality is quite bloodthirsty and feral, so it probably doesn't care whether the Princeps is corrupted or not, as long as it gets to fight.

So I think some stuff does have AI within it. Things like toasters probably don't, but over time the average Imperial citizen, probably with the urging of the Mechanicum, has probably started to assume that all mahinery they don't understand has them.

Redemption wrote:Smaller machine spirits like those in weaponry are usually based on animal organic material. One example given was that the machine spirits in bolters were based on various avian species, as their brains are capable of rapid visual processing for things like targeting and Friend or Foe recognition.

Now that's something I have never heard before - although it does sound like a cool idea, as it meshes with the Imperium's use of organic matter for the creation of cybernetic servants, not only servitors but also animals such as cyber-mastiffs.
Out of curiosity, where's that from, exactly?

ThePrimordial wrote:
So I did a lot of reading and looking around and there's a distinct possibility that advanced and complex machines like Titans, Baneblades, Land Raiders are in possession of a physical soul. As in they go to the warp when they die. I don't know exactly the pretenses that must be met to be in possession of a soul but everything living in 40k has a soul even daemons. The only thing that all of these have in common are sapience. Given that living things become daemons by showing off in a god's domain, and the presence of daemonic beasts, random animals might become daemons. So all that might be required to have a warp presence large enough to have a soul is personality,functioning thinking,& emotions. This would explain why rogue titans are referred to as corrupted because they actually are. Thoughts?

Yes, the more complex the machine, the closer to a truly sentient creature it becomes. Ships and Titans in particular are frequently noted as having their own temperament, going as far as being able to reject pilots they deem unsuitable. These are still a bit dumber than the truly sentient machines built during the Dark Age of Technology or the ones created by the Dark Mechanicus since the Heresy. In the Grey Knights novel, there is an example of an ancient AI actually becoming a daemon, and the ones built by DM are ingrained with Chaos to begin with.

Some authors introduce "rational" characters who treat everything as simple machines and get equivalent or better results than all the mystic hullabaloo.

Of course, with willpower and belief being the source of all power in the 40K universe, it's likely that believing a thing has a soul and personality invokes those very characteristics in that thing. A bolter is a simple mechanism, usually operated only by one. Whether that owner anoints it with oils and prays to it, or simply maintains it well as a piece of gear, it will likely function just fine. A Titan is piloted and attended by dozens, if not hundreds, of people, and if they all believe this particular titan is cranky and likes its belly scratched, well that's what it turns out to be. For ships, this number reaches the thousands, with commensurate increase in the power of group think.

No idea I'm afraid; I've read too much stuff over the years.

I believe it also had some phrase that (some?) bolters were 'smart' enough that if the marine wielding it were to sweep a full-auto burst into a battle scene where fellow Brother marines and enemies were fighting, the Friend or Foe recognition would actually automatically skip a shot in the burst if that were aimed at a Battle-Brother.

IFF transceivers don't need slave-brains to process. It works just as well with a radio tag or the "spoor-trackers" that feature in some SM and Inquisitorial sources. This uses some genetic data, or a body scent, specific heat-signature, whatever, to track a target from Point A to B.

With this, you lock the data for your allies into your guns, and now you cannot shoot them while they're in melee.

 Psienesis wrote:
IFF transceivers don't need slave-brains to process.

Of course, and there would be no need for servitors either if they'd just use something akin to drones like the Tau do. But that wouldn't be grimdark enough, now would it?

Continuing on from Omegus train of thought, say a Guardsman sings a hymn of operation and sure firing to his lasgun every time he goes into battle, he names it, he talks to it, it to him is his closest friend. Would actions like this increase the nature of the spirit as it did the Chaos Gods but on a much minor scale? So essentially it does gain some form of sentience and has an imprint in the warp. Is this then how weapons are able to to become possessed by Daemons. I understand that through Ritual weapons can and machines can be possessed, but could a warp entity crack into real space through a much loved weapon?

I'm pretty sure that I read somewhere that spirits of machines had an imprint but I can't seem to find it anymore, I could have sworn I read it in the 6th Ed rule book but reading last night couldn't find it.

Pilau Rice wrote:I understand that through Ritual weapons can and machines can be possessed, but could a warp entity crack into real space through a much loved weapon?

Well, what is a ritual weapon if not a weapon that was "ritually blessed", meaning "sanctified" via chanting and evocation?

Personally, I could certainly see the possibility of warp entities possessing a piece of gear even outside a "true" cultist environment - but the veil would have to be really weak to have a single random shmock achieve this effect, and I don't believe that warp entities, at least those that manage to cross over, are that numerous.

Doesn't mean anyone has to subscribe to this interpretation, though. If you want every single piece of gear in the Imperium, from the neighbour's car to the automatic door in the head scribe's office, to be possessed, that is yet another valid way to think of the setting. Really, pretty much the only limitation is one's own creativity and the rules that we put up for ourselves.

I meant in the typical Chaos ritual, you know blood, virgins .. Justin Bieber Albums.

I can imagine after many years of frustration and constant burnt food, Jerold the Chef calls his cooker one to many bad names and it subsequently removes itself from the wall and fries him.

Well, from how I interpret(!) the Warp, all those things - blood, virgins, Justin Bieber albums () - are really just different ways to achieve the same effect.

The Warp, supposedly, is fueled by emotion - and how you evoke them it up to you. It just so happens that some ways are more potent (and thus popular) than others, but I wouldn't say that they are the only factor. For example, if the veil in Jerold's kitchen suddenly becomes very thin because his world just happens to host a Daemon Invasion, I could see a possibility of that cooker coming to life. Classic horror story right there.

But I'm playing devil's advocate here... as I said, I personally assume that such things would be rare exceptions, maybe even just very, very remote possibilities. I just assume there is a certain "threshold of emotional overflow" that needs to be reached, but how you get there is up to you. Accidental happenings are perhaps less possible with individuals, but only large groups of people. Such as, say, planetary populations in a state of unrest or constant suffering/bliss/etc. Drawing upon the example of Slaanesh again, just applying the same precedent to minor entities due to the smaller scale.
It also ties in with my Living Saint theory, in case you remember.

A machine spirit is simply the term used by the backwards, superstitious, religious, machine-worshipping technomancer cults of the 41st millenium to describe something more mundane - Artificial Intelligence, also known as "AI". There is no actual soul or spirit involved here. And before someone tries the "but Machine Spirits can be corrupted by the warp!!!!" ever hear of a computer virus? It wouldn't be the first time the forces of chaos created a "technovirus" by any means...

Regarding the "personalities" aspect, its basically the concept of an aberrant AI (I think thats the term), an old artificial intelligence construct that has, over time, had its hardware degrade (which is also the reason why after some time that lightning fast computer is suddenly slow as gak despite the fact that you are running the same software as you were when you bought it) and there are now "quirks" exhibited as a result of this, such as incompatibility issues with certain users (it makes more sense when you realize a titan crew is plugged in like a piece of hardware) or "malfunctions" such as suddenly discharging a weapon (at a rather convenient time no less) as a result of a crossed wire.

 Redemption wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
IFF transceivers don't need slave-brains to process.

Of course, and there would be no need for servitors either if they'd just use something akin to drones like the Tau do. But that wouldn't be grimdark enough, now would it?

The "spoor-trackers" on Astartes weapons that are equipped with them don't use servitor brains, either. It's simply genetic trackers and RF transceivers keyed to individual PA suits, comm-beads, or other tokens that identify individuals to the weapon. It's also capable of creating a profile of a specific target (or targets, depending on who you're reading) and using the systems of the PA to assist on target-lock.

chaos0xomega wrote:
A machine spirit is simply the term used by the backwards, superstitious, religious, machine-worshipping technomancer cults of the 41st millenium to describe something more mundane - Artificial Intelligence, also known as "AI". There is no actual soul or spirit involved here. And before someone tries the "but Machine Spirits can be corrupted by the warp!!!!" ever hear of a computer virus? It wouldn't be the first time the forces of chaos created a "technovirus" by any means...

Regarding the "personalities" aspect, its basically the concept of an aberrant AI (I think thats the term), an old artificial intelligence construct that has, over time, had its hardware degrade (which is also the reason why after some time that lightning fast computer is suddenly slow as gak despite the fact that you are running the same software as you were when you bought it) and there are now "quirks" exhibited as a result of this, such as incompatibility issues with certain users (it makes more sense when you realize a titan crew is plugged in like a piece of hardware) or "malfunctions" such as suddenly discharging a weapon (at a rather convenient time no less) as a result of a crossed wire.

This isn't true obviously due to the Castigator which must have had a physical soul due to becoming a daemon.
Plus all that might be required to have a soul in 40k (emotions, sapience) , intelligent AI's already possess.
40k works very differently because emotions feed the warp and intelligent AI's have emotions which mean AI's are capable of possessing souls.

There are malignant tech-spirits that can possess purely technological devices. Souls are not required for "daemonic possession". AI, or "Silica Animus", is soulless, because it's purely a machine. It is an artificial intelligence.

One can have emotions and intelligence and not have a soul, these things are not related or pre-requisites to each other.

 Psienesis wrote:
There are malignant tech-spirits that can possess purely technological devices. Souls are not required for "daemonic possession". AI, or "Silica Animus", is soulless, because it's purely a machine. It is an artificial intelligence.

One can have emotions and intelligence and not have a soul, these things are not related or pre-requisites to each other.

The AI of the castigator wasn't possessed. The AI itself became a daemon. Exact wording. That s*it actually happened.

This doesn't jive with the development of AI in the Imperium, nor what we understand of the link between Titan and Princeps. AI, Silica Animus, has been banned since the DAoT, following the war with the Men of Iron, which predates the construction of Titans many millennia over. I would pass this off to yet another moment in Black Library taking liberties with the fluff in order to tell an interesting story, which is perfectly within the authors of the Black Library right to do.

Nothing mortal, or even physical, can "become" a daemon, anymore than a Guardsman can "become" a Leman-Russ tank. A daemon is an intelligent creature that is native to the Immaterium. A Titan is not.

This strikes me more as malignant tech-spirits infiltrating the datastacks of the Titan and subverting its code, allowing it to become possessed by further daemon-code until it became what it became, never bothering to tell it that its firewalls had been compromised.

Given that what the war-spirit of a Titan *is* is not clearly defined (or even agreed upon to actually exist at all), there's a number of interpretations to what happened there that can be put forward.

The whole concept of the Machine Spirit has sort of evolved as some of the sillier authors have worked on it.

Really, what the Machine Spirit is supposed to be is 40K tech-phobic language for "really advanced computer that we don't fully understand anymore".

There's no actual spirit, in mystical or metaphysical sense.

 Psienesis wrote:
This doesn't jive with the development of AI in the Imperium, nor what we understand of the link between Titan and Princeps. AI, Silica Animus, has been banned since the DAoT, following the war with the Men of Iron, which predates the construction of Titans many millennia over. I would pass this off to yet another moment in Black Library taking liberties with the fluff in order to tell an interesting story, which is perfectly within the authors of the Black Library right to do.

Nothing mortal, or even physical, can "become" a daemon, anymore than a Guardsman can "become" a Leman-Russ tank. A daemon is an intelligent creature that is native to the Immaterium. A Titan is not.

This strikes me more as malignant tech-spirits infiltrating the datastacks of the Titan and subverting its code, allowing it to become possessed by further daemon-code until it became what it became, never bothering to tell it that its firewalls had been compromised.

Given that what the war-spirit of a Titan *is* is not clearly defined (or even agreed upon to actually exist at all), there's a number of interpretations to what happened there that can be put forward.

The bit about the daemon is wrong. If a normal man is in Khorne's domain and successfully beats up a bloodletter & impresses Khorne he can become a daemon. Regardless of interpretation you're wrong due to the presence of Daemon Princes which are still powerful daemons. Titans are also possibly as old as the men of iron given what is written. The Warp itself acts like a physical place w/ little to no defining physics & the chaos gods all have physical forms they take on there. Read the thread before you post bro, that should be a rule, its clear you haven't because all these points have been made and not disputed by anyone else.

Daemon Princes are neither mortals nor daemons, but a transmogrification into an immortal hybrid of both.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
The whole concept of the Machine Spirit has sort of evolved as some of the sillier authors have worked on it.

Really, what the Machine Spirit is supposed to be is 40K tech-phobic language for "really advanced computer that we don't fully understand anymore".

There's no actual spirit, in mystical or metaphysical sense.

The Warp which has power over the physical realm is fed and propagated by sapient life and emotions. 40k isn't a Scifi thing, its more of a Fantasy world with high levels of tech.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Psienesis wrote:
Daemon Princes are neither mortals nor daemons, but a transmogrification into an immortal hybrid of both.

Nope they're daemons and are every bit as immortal as regular daemons, w/ the same absurdly long names, requirement of a vessel, and rules for banishing. THEY ARE DAEMONS. They just have a bit more leniency when trying to appear in the materium. Stop derailing the thread!!! I feel bad for feeding this derailment of my own thread with an undeniably interesting fluff question.

ThePrimordial wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
The whole concept of the Machine Spirit has sort of evolved as some of the sillier authors have worked on it.

Really, what the Machine Spirit is supposed to be is 40K tech-phobic language for "really advanced computer that we don't fully understand anymore".

There's no actual spirit, in mystical or metaphysical sense.

The Warp which has power over the physical realm is fed and propagated by sapient life and emotions. 40k isn't a Scifi thing, its more of a Fantasy world with high levels of tech.

That really doesn't change the fact that Machine Spirits aren't actually spirits. People in 40K just assume it must be supernatural since they don't really understand it.

It's kinda silly, but that's the way it is.

 Lynata wrote:
Well, from how I interpret(!) the Warp, all those things - blood, virgins, Justin Bieber albums () - are really just different ways to achieve the same effect.

The Warp, supposedly, is fueled by emotion - and how you evoke them it up to you. It just so happens that some ways are more potent (and thus popular) than others, but I wouldn't say that they are the only factor. For example, if the veil in Jerold's kitchen suddenly becomes very thin because his world just happens to host a Daemon Invasion, I could see a possibility of that cooker coming to life. Classic horror story right there.

But I'm playing devil's advocate here... as I said, I personally assume that such things would be rare exceptions, maybe even just very, very remote possibilities. I just assume there is a certain "threshold of emotional overflow" that needs to be reached, but how you get there is up to you. Accidental happenings are perhaps less possible with individuals, but only large groups of people. Such as, say, planetary populations in a state of unrest or constant suffering/bliss/etc. Drawing upon the example of Slaanesh again, just applying the same precedent to minor entities due to the smaller scale.
It also ties in with my Living Saint theory, in case you remember.

Sure, a Ritual would be say, a forced possession, in the case of Jerolds Cooker it could be the Daemon or whatever willingly possessing it, taking advantage of the circumstance. But both end up with the same outcome, Jerold being turned into KFC (Krispy Fried Cook)

It would be an extremely rare case I agree, not many people form lasting emotional bonds with their Cookers, at least I hope not, It could give new meaning to grilling a sausage ...

chaos0xomega wrote:
A machine spirit is simply the term used by the backwards, superstitious, religious, machine-worshipping technomancer cults of the 41st millenium to describe something more mundane - Artificial Intelligence, also known as "AI". There is no actual soul or spirit involved here. And before someone tries the "but Machine Spirits can be corrupted by the warp!!!!" ever hear of a computer virus? It wouldn't be the first time the forces of chaos created a "technovirus" by any means...

Regarding the "personalities" aspect, its basically the concept of an aberrant AI (I think thats the term), an old artificial intelligence construct that has, over time, had its hardware degrade (which is also the reason why after some time that lightning fast computer is suddenly slow as gak despite the fact that you are running the same software as you were when you bought it) and there are now "quirks" exhibited as a result of this, such as incompatibility issues with certain users (it makes more sense when you realize a titan crew is plugged in like a piece of hardware) or "malfunctions" such as suddenly discharging a weapon (at a rather convenient time no less) as a result of a crossed wire.

See, I always thought this was the generally accepted understanding of machine spirits.

As I understand it, during the DAoT, humanity fought a war against the Men of Iron, which was a more poetic description of a war with androids and AI. Now, like any other sentient entity, the AIs had to find a way to survive. Their metal bodies were destroyed, but would it be absurd to think that they didn't leave those behind and hide in the vast realm of technology that already existed?
As one last middle finger to humanity, the newly "possessed" machines just start obliterating all evidence that they can exist. The best way to stay hidden is take away anyone's ability to even figure out you are there. So the machines are intentionally corrupting records and just absolutely having a field day with it. Humanity, conversely, has their thumbs up their asses. It's been so long since humanity has actually had to work or learn something that no one really knows how to actually work on these machines. The Androids are "gone" and all the user manuals mysteriously got lost. So when it comes to anything that deals with technology, humanity hasn't a clue what it's doing and the machines are undeniably in charge. Humanity is really none-the-wiser though. They just fought a war and won. They are too tired to realize what's happened.

As time passes, and humanities problems start to stack up, the AIs become a little bolder and start expressing themselves. Suddenly the Land Raider Mk 1 that worked yesterday doesn't want to start up unless you are nice to it. The mechadendrites strapped to your back think it's hilarious to knock things over, independent of your thoughts. More time passes and suddenly these AIs expressing themselves is a godddamn mystery...and worse, any and all information about how these things work was lost long ago. So all humanity knows is the machines are acting like jerks and they are terrified to even touch them. That's when suddenly everyone gets the bright idea to just suck it up and be nice to the machines. Guys in red robes are swinging incense and chanting prayers just to get their Caff makers to work every morning. Meanwhile, the machines are laughing their asses off.

And just like any other sentient being, the AIs....which are now called 'spirits" because everyone thinks it's friggin ghosts....all have unique personalities. Tevan's maglev chair absolutely loses it's mind whenever he watches reruns of "Law and Order: Ordos", but yours laps that stuff up and actually engages it massage feature automatically when it hears the weird theme song. And warmachines dude, warmachines have seen some stuff. The titans, being older than dirt, have seen their "friends" die and other machines torn up by men and women with axes and guns. Addtionally, controlling all those parts has really driven them a little over the edge....and worse, occasionally some jerkoff tries to link up with them...and did I mention he's a jerk? It's a small wonder titans are even loyalists.

So yeah, I've always understood it that the "machine spirits" are just the AIs that were intelligent enough to get the hell out Dodge during the war in the DAoT and decided it was better to be a jerk for 15,000 years than die in yoru android body.

ThePrimordial wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
A machine spirit is simply the term used by the backwards, superstitious, religious, machine-worshipping technomancer cults of the 41st millenium to describe something more mundane - Artificial Intelligence, also known as "AI". There is no actual soul or spirit involved here. And before someone tries the "but Machine Spirits can be corrupted by the warp!!!!" ever hear of a computer virus? It wouldn't be the first time the forces of chaos created a "technovirus" by any means...

Regarding the "personalities" aspect, its basically the concept of an aberrant AI (I think thats the term), an old artificial intelligence construct that has, over time, had its hardware degrade (which is also the reason why after some time that lightning fast computer is suddenly slow as gak despite the fact that you are running the same software as you were when you bought it) and there are now "quirks" exhibited as a result of this, such as incompatibility issues with certain users (it makes more sense when you realize a titan crew is plugged in like a piece of hardware) or "malfunctions" such as suddenly discharging a weapon (at a rather convenient time no less) as a result of a crossed wire.

This isn't true obviously due to the Castigator which must have had a physical soul due to becoming a daemon.
Plus all that might be required to have a soul in 40k (emotions, sapience) , intelligent AI's already possess.
40k works very differently because emotions feed the warp and intelligent AI's have emotions which mean AI's are capable of possessing souls.

It didn't "become" a daemon, it was possessed by a daemon, and as stated prior, the warp is apparrently capable of spawning "technoviruses" (see obliterators for a rather over the top example). By your logic, Iranian computers have souls because STUXNET was a daemon and made them do crazy gak.

The AI of the castigator wasn't possessed. The AI itself became a daemon. Exact wording. That s*it actually happened.

If by "actually happened" you mean it happened in a non-canon (as all Black Library books are) book set in a grim dark future that won't happen for another 38 millenia, yeah. Also, can you source that "exact wording" because I don't remember it saying that it "became a daemon". I remember lots of discussion however of it being a corrupt STC.

Nothing mortal, or even physical, can "become" a daemon, anymore than a Guardsman can "become" a Leman-Russ tank. A daemon is an intelligent creature that is native to the Immaterium. A Titan is not.

Except for daemon princes (Except even those are stated to not be "true" daemons).

If a normal man is in Khorne's domain and successfully beats up a bloodletter & impresses Khorne he can become a daemon. Regardless of interpretation you're wrong due to the presence of Daemon Princes which are still powerful daemons.

Except daemon princes are, again, stated to not be true daemons.

[

ROFL.

Daemon Princes are neither mortals nor daemons, but a transmogrification into an immortal hybrid of both.

Owned.

Nope they're daemons and are every bit as immortal as regular daemons, w/ the same absurdly long names, requirement of a vessel, and rules for banishing. THEY ARE DAEMONS. They just have a bit more leniency when trying to appear in the materium. Stop derailing the thread!!! I feel bad for feeding this derailment of my own thread with an undeniably interesting fluff question.

LOL NO!

See above, also this:

Read the thread before you post bro, that should be a rule, its clear you haven't because all these points have been made and not disputed by anyone else.

I remember at least one comic, where the machine spirit of a ship had to be awakened using adrenaline. Then again it was allready mentioned how GW treats canon.


Also, in a world were the use of servitors is pretty frequent, it isn't hard to imagine that something similiar is used to power other technology.


Also, most imperial tech originates on Mars, the place were the void dragon is imprisoned... a being which allegedly has powers beyond the physical, which aren't powered by the imaterium. Just to add a crackpot theory. ^^

chaos0xomega wrote:

ThePrimordial wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
A machine spirit is simply the term used by the backwards, superstitious, religious, machine-worshipping technomancer cults of the 41st millenium to describe something more mundane - Artificial Intelligence, also known as "AI". There is no actual soul or spirit involved here. And before someone tries the "but Machine Spirits can be corrupted by the warp!!!!" ever hear of a computer virus? It wouldn't be the first time the forces of chaos created a "technovirus" by any means...

Regarding the "personalities" aspect, its basically the concept of an aberrant AI (I think thats the term), an old artificial intelligence construct that has, over time, had its hardware degrade (which is also the reason why after some time that lightning fast computer is suddenly slow as gak despite the fact that you are running the same software as you were when you bought it) and there are now "quirks" exhibited as a result of this, such as incompatibility issues with certain users (it makes more sense when you realize a titan crew is plugged in like a piece of hardware) or "malfunctions" such as suddenly discharging a weapon (at a rather convenient time no less) as a result of a crossed wire.

This isn't true obviously due to the Castigator which must have had a physical soul due to becoming a daemon.
Plus all that might be required to have a soul in 40k (emotions, sapience) , intelligent AI's already possess.
40k works very differently because emotions feed the warp and intelligent AI's have emotions which mean AI's are capable of possessing souls.

It didn't "become" a daemon, it was possessed by a daemon, and as stated prior, the warp is apparrently capable of spawning "technoviruses" (see obliterators for a rather over the top example). By your logic, Iranian computers have souls because STUXNET was a daemon and made them do crazy gak.

The AI of the castigator wasn't possessed. The AI itself became a daemon. Exact wording. That s*it actually happened.

If by "actually happened" you mean it happened in a non-canon (as all Black Library books are) book set in a grim dark future that won't happen for another 38 millenia, yeah. Also, can you source that "exact wording" because I don't remember it saying that it "became a daemon". I remember lots of discussion however of it being a corrupt STC.

Nothing mortal, or even physical, can "become" a daemon, anymore than a Guardsman can "become" a Leman-Russ tank. A daemon is an intelligent creature that is native to the Immaterium. A Titan is not.

Except for daemon princes (Except even those are stated to not be "true" daemons).

If a normal man is in Khorne's domain and successfully beats up a bloodletter & impresses Khorne he can become a daemon. Regardless of interpretation you're wrong due to the presence of Daemon Princes which are still powerful daemons.

Except daemon princes are, again, stated to not be true daemons.

[

ROFL.

Daemon Princes are neither mortals nor daemons, but a transmogrification into an immortal hybrid of both.

Owned.

Nope they're daemons and are every bit as immortal as regular daemons, w/ the same absurdly long names, requirement of a vessel, and rules for banishing. THEY ARE DAEMONS. They just have a bit more leniency when trying to appear in the materium. Stop derailing the thread!!! I feel bad for feeding this derailment of my own thread with an undeniably interesting fluff question.

LOL NO!

See above, also this:

Read the thread before you post bro, that should be a rule, its clear you haven't because all these points have been made and not disputed by anyone else.

When LOL NO is the response to refuting evidence you shouldn't be refuting said evidence.

People seem to have problems in suspending their disbelief in certain areas and this is but one case where all kinds of explanations arise just to justify it. I find it hilarious that people actually need a detailed explanation on how things in sci-fi works. Due to that, science and technology are tried to be explained in ours very limited understanding of it. Even if we would get a professional scientists, their tries to deny possibilities of warhammer technology would be futile. First of all, our understanding of universe is still very limited. Second, there is no telling on how innovative their technology is and that unknown methods and materials are used. Third, we still need to discover more dimensions. We have no idea that warp is and how it behaves. It's very possible that in age of strife, rules of material universe (physic, chemistry and etc) have been slightly changed due to massive amounts of ethereal energy being unleashed on it. There is a possibility that in that universe, our science would be slightly inaccurate overall or in some places, completely wrong.


Machine spirit fits in w40k universe quite well. It's like orks technology, completely separate technology tree, based on psychic powers and questionable technology. Their understanding of science and technology are so different that their technology is simply beyond understanding of all, but most advanced races like Eldars. Machine spirit would surely be of great help in explaining a lot of things in warhammer's lore. Like why human technology tend to persists working despite extreme damage it's suffering. Why Eisenhorn's bolt pistol only jammed then it was targeted at his head, despite working flawlessly for decades. Why in "battle of the fang", space wolve's scout ship continued on working despite being in constant burning state for at least weeks. It would explain why it persisted on his mission despite having its hull mostly destroyed and how it managed to keep on working until very last, theoretical possible second. Machine spirit would explain why resistance movement rank tech-priest avoided machines with stronger spirits and possessed only weak ones (Dark mechanicus). It would explain why titans have personalities, why ships have conversations with its captains or even crews. Machine spirit would explain a lot in Imperium's lore and to flat-out state that its just mere superstition would directly oppose many incidents. Incidents which would be very well explain by admitting that mechanicus technology are different from ours. That tech-priest understanding of it creates machine spirits naturally. That adeptus mechanicus way of creating machinery is as far removed from Tau's technology as is from Orks or Eldar technology.

If you mean the time Eisenhorn got mind-controlled by the alpha-plus psyker and shot that White Consuls Space Marine in the face, his pistol failed to fire because Lord Inquisitor Vorkan had seized its machinery with telekinetic forces. That lasted long enough for Gregor to not shoot himself with it.

 Psienesis wrote:
If you mean the time Eisenhorn got mind-controlled by the alpha-plus psyker and shot that White Consuls Space Marine in the face, his pistol failed to fire because Lord Inquisitor Vorkan had seized its machinery with telekinetic forces. That lasted long enough for Gregor to not shoot himself with it.

That example exactly. It was described like this?

Hmmm, I think that my mind is particularly susceptible to twisting its memories. I already observe this phenomena with certain, unpleasant things which are being hidden away in depths of my memory. I know that I know something unpleasant about something, but it's simply lost to me and meditation-like state is required to access it. Mostly, just very blurred view and instinct are left. This example might be of different nature. It's most likely that my imagination wasn't fast enough to portray another action that I had read and only that was visualized stayed in my memory.

Yeah, Voke (not Vorkan, I knew something didn't look right there) basically pops up from nowhere and does his telekine thing, freezes the weapon in a block of psychic ice, and Eisenhorn manages to pull it away from his head before Voke loses control of the power and the weapon discharges.

chaos0xomega wrote:
A machine spirit is simply the term used by the backwards, superstitious, religious, machine-worshipping technomancer cults of the 41st millenium to describe something more mundane - Artificial Intelligence, also known as "AI". There is no actual soul or spirit involved here. And before someone tries the "but Machine Spirits can be corrupted by the warp!!!!" ever hear of a computer virus? It wouldn't be the first time the forces of chaos created a "technovirus" by any means...

Regarding the "personalities" aspect, its basically the concept of an aberrant AI (I think thats the term), an old artificial intelligence construct that has, over time, had its hardware degrade (which is also the reason why after some time that lightning fast computer is suddenly slow as gak despite the fact that you are running the same software as you were when you bought it) and there are now "quirks" exhibited as a result of this, such as incompatibility issues with certain users (it makes more sense when you realize a titan crew is plugged in like a piece of hardware) or "malfunctions" such as suddenly discharging a weapon (at a rather convenient time no less) as a result of a crossed wire.

This right here.

It is also reasonable to assume that since Chaos can warp and change physical objects (along with sentient creatures) it could also change and warp the program of the AI. Such things would be interpreted by the Imperium as possession. And of course, if an AI was sentient, then I see no reason a warp entity couldn't use that sentient AI as a gateway into the material realm, just like with an organic sentient being.

Regarding maintenance of machine spirits (and all technology in general), there is a lot of ritual involved. A person of the 41st Millennium would perhaps burn incense and chant prayers while maintaining a piece of equipment, but along with those prayers they would also be doing other more vital maintenance. The ritual aspect is not necessary, but they wouldn't know it. They would practice the maintenance rituals and their gear would continue to work, and they would attribute their success as much to the prayer as they would the replacement of broken components.

In fact, the ritual element may provide an easy way to remember what they are suppose to do. A person who practices these rituals may be more confident if their ability to maintain their equipment and so they less likely to screw something up. Over the centuries though, perhaps more esoteric and unrelated motions get introduced.

Ernestas wrote:People seem to have problems in suspending their disbelief in certain areas and this is but one case where all kinds of explanations arise just to justify it. [...] Machine spirit fits in w40k universe quite well. It's like orks technology, completely separate technology tree, based on psychic powers and questionable technology.

See, here's where I just can't agree. In my opinion, the Machine Spirit (as superstition) fits into 40k quite well because of GW's penchant to take strange things from actual human history and dial them up to eleven. Where some people seem to look at the fluff and actually take it at face value, I see thinly veiled black humour walking the thin line between "grimdark" and "ridiculous".

But as I said earlier, it's all a matter of interpretation, and if anyone wants to believe that stuff like some Primarch actually carrying a mountain range on his back because that's how it was recorded by the natives of his Legion's homeworld, that's their choice too. Because there is a difference between "suspension of disbelief" and blindly swallowing every word from texts whose purpose is to poke fun at RL humanity whilst telling a story. You can come to a consistent setting with both approaches - it just won't be the same one.

A 'Machine Sprit' is an idea; namely that machines possess a sprit (or warp reflection, or whatever_ like living creature does. It is an idea promulgated by the Adeptus Mechanius as part of their religion and is a part of the whole 'technology is sacred' shtick they have going on. There is even some 'evidence' of this in the various materials attached to the setting.

By my understanding of the fluff there are several possible things going on here. When someone 'in-setting' attributes something to a machine sprit it could one of the following things:

1 - Superstitious anthropomorphisation: A owner of a bolt gun may talk about the 'sprit' of the weapon and it's personality, but all they are really doing is ascribing a humanity to the device's natural qualities (like heft or reliability) and quirks (like a habit of the trigger sticking after being fired on auto for a while). We sorta do this in our own world; talking about a boat as a 'she' or a car as 'temperamental'.

2 - Computers: Advanced, complicated technology (such as a land-raider or Titan) may have actual 'systems' (maybe even with biological components), that give them a certain autonomy, and a semblance of intelligence or awareness. They may even be labelled 'machine sprit'. While not actually True AI, they come close enough to make people think that they 'think', without violating the edict against True AI.

3 - Warp Reflection Personification: In-setting there is an established idea that the beliefs and emotions of living things can, particularly when doing it en-mass, affect the warp and create warp-entities. If that belief, fervour and emotional intensity were focused on a machine for long enough, or with enough force, or by enough people, I would say it would be possible that that machine would gain or manifest a 'reflection' in the warp that would be, for all intents and purposes, a sprit.

Personally I'd reserve the last one for large, well know, pieces of technology that have had a long history interacting with lots and lots of people (such as a Starship or Titan). That said, if that effect was occurring, I would not rule out weaker versions of it (such as for famous, relics, weapons, or vehicles).

Well, religion of mechanicus is partly a tool for their elite to keep their power and influence and it's partly representation of their believes. Mechanicus, despite a popular believe, still are doing research and advancing its knowledge and introducing new weaponary into Imperial use. Sadly, organisation have become a very much political unit where politics and inner power competition have become quite common. It's funny how humanity's second golden age of technology is withhold by adeptus mechanicus by a simple believe that human's worth consists of only knowledge he contains. They enforce that belief pretty brutally to a point that only people able to do some research is mechanicus magos or higher rank priests.


Lynata, that's my concern exactly. People want their w30k to be like dragon ball Z and in a same time, they find it difficult to believe that humanity's technology can be different from that we a familiar with today. Even more, no one seems to be bothered that orks technology utilizes even more ridiculous concepts on far larger scale.

There will be no Second Golden Age of the Imperium in the timeline conceivable for the game. Humanity has lost, not forgotten, lost, irrevocably lost, the knowledge and science that would be required to have another Golden Age.

It is not that the AdMech holds humanity back from being great, what the AdMech holds humanity back from is sliding into another Stone Age.

I'm pretty sure there is a line in one of the official canon sources (I.E. rulebook) about how the Mechanicum loses the ability to produce certain technologies, etc. on a daily basis, so the idea that the Mechanicum are conducting research and producing new technologies doesn't really seem to work given the statement to the contrary... Unless by producing "new stuff" you mean they rediscover "old stuff" every once in a while...

They do sometimes manage to reverse-engineer Xeno technology to produce something for the Imperium. This is how the DeathWatch and other groups get things like Haywire grenades.

ETA: Also the fact that they make "continuous" (every few centuries or so) improvements to Power Armor. I mean, the fact that they can build an armored corset and thigh-high heeled boots that grants a woman as much protection as a Space Marine has gotta count for something, right?

The problem is that books portray mechanicus differently. There they are more fleshed out and painted at more realistic colors than dry GW's dictations of lore. For example, now I read Eisenhorn's novels and there is is a very interesting part about Bure. It's said that he is doing research and mechanicus recognises his achievements. Also, he had managed to replicate lost artifact, Barbarisater and to make some alterations to a weapon. Such stories of competence are typical in all books with them in it. At least in books that I have read.

As for a machine spirit, here is a typical, direct quote from how it feels to interact with adeptus mechanicus high-tech:

'Barbarisater was an extraordinary piece. I came to know it and it came to know me. Within a week, it was responding to my will, channeling it so hard that the rune marks glowed with manifesting psychic power, It had a will of its own, and once it was in my hands, ready, swinging, it was difficult to stop it it pulling and slicing where it pleased. It hungered for blood..or if not blood, then at least the joy of battle. On two separate occasions, Medea came into the hold to see if I was bored enough for another round of regicide, and I had to restrain the steek from lunging at her.
Its sheer length was a problem: I had never used a blade so long. I worried that I would do my own extremities harm. But practice gave me the gift of it: long-armed, flowing moves, sweeping strokes, a tight field of severing. Withing a fortnight, I had mastered the knack of spinning it over my hand, my open palm and the pommel circling around each other like the discs of a gyroscope. I was proud of that move. I think Barbarisater taught it to me.

His descriptions of his blade fits a possessed item. If a weapon can be described equally as a possessed one, then that means that machine spirit's effects are similar to a deamonic possession in some way, hence, it have its personality and with it, it's enchanting piece of equipment in a similar way as a deamonic possession does. Even more, machine spirit fights its intruders like a deamon does. So, if it looks like a spirit maybe it's a spirit?

I'm pretty sure a sword doesn't have a Machine Spirit, since it's not a machine, it's just a sharp bit of metal with no moving parts... though it could, I suppose, possess the even-less-defined "War Spirit".

This particular weapon, if memory serves, was a power-saber (though his description of it makes me envision a katana). I think, more to the point with that scene, that since he is an actual psyker (and a telepath to boot) using this ancient relic of a weapon that had been handed down through the Ewl Wyra Scryri practitioners for generations awakens some sort of "inherited memory" that's been imprinted on the device by the many warriors who have carried it over the years.

That's just my interpretation of it, though.

 Pendix wrote:
A 'Machine Sprit' is an idea; namely that machines possess a sprit.

1 - Superstitious anthropomorphisation:

And that's probably where the idea for GWs machine spirits originate. I'm sure quite a few of us have dealt with a machine that seems to mess with us out of spite... PC shutting down, car not starting, chainsaw overheating for no reason the owner can think of (it's a cheap one with plastic instead of much that should be metal).

GorillaWarfare wrote:

Regarding maintenance of machine spirits (and all technology in general), there is a lot of ritual involved. A person of the 41st Millennium would perhaps burn incense and chant prayers while maintaining a piece of equipment, but along with those prayers they would also be doing other more vital maintenance. The ritual aspect is not necessary, but they wouldn't know it. They would practice the maintenance rituals and their gear would continue to work, and they would attribute their success as much to the prayer as they would the replacement of broken components.

In fact, the ritual element may provide an easy way to remember what they are suppose to do. A person who practices these rituals may be more confident if their ability to maintain their equipment and so they less likely to screw something up. Over the centuries though, perhaps more esoteric and unrelated motions get introduced.

Before I continue, I should point out that many Chaos items become possessed, things that don't have souls. Daemons can infest a piece of armour and possess individual components, manifesting as a leering daemonic face on a shoulderpad or a series of bony spikes along the back of a power axe.

This is pretty much what I think, too. My interpretation is that the machine-spirit refers to a number of things, all things that must be 'appeased'.

The first of these is the same as others in this thread have mentioned, a superstitious thing granted to individual items to explain "quirks" and so on. For example, a Commissar's bolt pistol jams. Due to the low level of technological understanding, the Commissar assumes he has angered the machine-spirit somehow, not that a round has been incorrectly loaded or anything. He therefore performs "the Litany of Operation" or something. In his mind, this is to appease the bolt pistol's machine-spirit so that it will work again. During the litany he offers long prayers, disassembles the gun and offers a prayer to each piece before and after cleaning it, and then reassembles the weapon, offers one final prayer, and it fires! He believes he has appeased the machine-spirit of the weapon, when in reality he has simply fixed the issue.

The second is computers. A Predator's auto-targeting system, for example. It is simply a computer, but the belief is that it is capable of true thought as it is a spirit in the machine. This machine-spirit will smite the foes of the Emperor and is worth much praise and respect. Although the Predator's only computer-controlled function may be its automatic targeting, the trait of having a machine-spirit will be cited as the reason for any and all quirks that the vehicle may have; a fault in the tracks, perhaps, causing it to drift to the left when the driver attempts to go forwards. Perhaps, as mentioned previously in the thread, the auto-targeting function would not allow weapon operators to fire upon friendly forces; this would be attributed to the machine-spirit's allegiance to the Emperor or something. A Chaos Predator wouldn't just be simply 'reprogrammed', the vehicle itself would be committing heresy by firing upon the Emperor's finest as much as the Chaos Marines operating it would be.

The third and final is artificial intelligence of varying degrees. For example, that famous Land Raider that carried on pilotlessly for a while. This machine-spirit would have been a sort of autopilot, capable of foe recognition and destruction. While not a true AI, it is an intelligence. Something closer to a true AI may not only be present in a Titan but absolutely necessary for its function. The Princeps and crew may operate the machine, but what handles the countless subtle processes that must occur with every action? Perhaps there is a "machine-spirit" present to interpret the inputs given by the crew.

While it is entirely possible for a Bolter to become possessed and spout legs and arms, it is much more favourable for a daemon to possess a vehicle, a physical body through which it can move in the Materium (different to a Daemon Engine), just like daemons can possess people.

An interesting extension of this idea comes about when considering Dreadnoughts. Would a failure in the systems of a Dreadnought (any that can't be obviously attributed to damage, they're not that stupid) be blamed on the 'pilot'? Do Dreadnought operators count as the "machine spirit", and thus any faults associated with machine-spirit anger would be blamed on a lack of faith or something?

 Psienesis wrote:
I'm pretty sure a sword doesn't have a Machine Spirit, since it's not a machine, it's just a sharp bit of metal with no moving parts... though it could, I suppose, possess the even-less-defined "War Spirit".

This particular weapon, if memory serves, was a power-saber (though his description of it makes me envision a katana). I think, more to the point with that scene, that since he is an actual psyker (and a telepath to boot) using this ancient relic of a weapon that had been handed down through the Ewl Wyra Scryri practitioners for generations awakens some sort of "inherited memory" that's been imprinted on the device by the many warriors who have carried it over the years.

That's just my interpretation of it, though.

I will try to back up my claims in parts due to lack of time and potential new wall of text.


First of all, I want to make sure you understand that deamons or they equivalents, machine spirits do not have to have consciousness. Deamons that are able to interact are already quite advanced in hierarchy amongst other deamons. Even though, they still can influence mortals or equipment in question, but not on conscious level. If needed, I could dig through my copy of ''Liber chaotica" for quotes.

Second, in a book it's vaguely mentioned. I reread that part and there was no support of either part of argument: is weapon was remade or not. I think that author left a plot hole there. By arguing with a common sense I would say that Eisenhorn didn't had a weapon back then and it was reforged by a warpsmith. Weapon was lost on Cadia during his arrest. I mean, if you are going to fight potential deamonhosts you will surely are going to take your most potent weapons. Even more, I find it hard to imagine that sword just siting in his HQ doing nothing while ours Inquisitor risks his life constantly. Due to that, there could be no possibility of that artifact being just given back to his staff (Knowing Imperium,they were extremely lucky to not get same treatment as he did) and his escape wasn't planned to such lengths as to reclaim his sword from someones armory. Even more, Eisenhorn doesn't mentions that sword was given back to his original owners, meaning that Inquisition have kept this weapon for themselves.
Sadly, recreation theory is hardly viable due to difficulty in creating such weapons even though, text strangely is neutral in this question. Again, I believe that author left a plot hole in this little area.
Also, lexicanum states that weapon was upgraded, take it for that you will. In addition, keep in mind that author most likely wrote about rune staff's creation.



So, how do you imagine ''inherited memory"? Isn't that a spirit of some sort? Isn't that a minor deamon that I was talking before? I think that you might be imagining this matter wrong. I do not say that an adeptus mechanicus crafted toaster will have its machine spirit which would require appeasement. I say that mechanicus creates something extra with its technology. Something unique which creates its spirits in realistic way. I mean, you did noticed many examples of machine spirit in action and you can say for sure that it had its own personal character. Do you think that a simple computer, a simple computer code would be able to have such complex bugs that would create a personality like a sub-product?

I will try to expand on this in a future in more detail.


Here are some examples of how possessed weapons can interact with its wielder or to enchant weapon's potency:

Willingly you picked me up. Your first mistake. Willingly you drew me. Your second mistake. I do not allow my servants to make three mistakes, foolish mortal...
A Daemon Weapon

The Berserker Glaive contains the bound essence of a Bloodletter, which has been driven truly insane by its captivity, forcing the bearer to constantly fight with it to remain in control. The Glaive transfers this rage to the wielder, who is automatically gripped with "blood frenzy," granting them great strength and resilience. However the weapon has no concern over whose life is taken, including any allies and even the wielders themselves, as long as the blood flows in the name of Khorne.

Hellblades are swords wielded by Bloodletters. These are great two-handed weapons given to them by Khorne, each said to be possessed by an angry daemon. They are powerful warp-forged blades of wicked sharpness that no mortal-made armor can withstand. Legend says the core of each Hellblade is formed of the souls of raging daemons and that pure hatred sharpens their edges. Over the millennia countless foes have had their wills broken by the carnage wrought by these evil weapons.

The Dark Blade is jet black and contains no other marks to blemish its surface. The blade has a perfect darkness although the hilt, pommel and grip are often adorned. The blade feeds on the souls of its enemies and uses this power to force the bearer on to greater acts of savagery in order to sate its appetite.

The Dreadaxe is a Daemon Weapon. It contains a vampiric being with a thirst for the souls of other Daemons. It is almost inevitable that anyone who opposes this weapon will die quickly. They usually take the form of a highly decorated double-bladed axe.

Warpswords are titanic Daemon Weapons used by Soul Grinders of Chaos. These ever-shifting blades are the physical manifestation of an imprisoned Daemon's hatred at being trapped within the machine-body of a Soul Grinder

Being a daemon weapon, Drach'nyen could be considered a living being and its appearance can change dramatically.

The mighty daemon weapon draws its prodigious power from the bound essence of a writhing warp entity that can rend reality apart, named Drach'nyen.[2] The Warmaster uses this weapon as a symbol of his authority, and with it has led his infamous Black Crusades, as well as using it to effect in battle.

The Silver Blade of Laer was a weapon recovered by Fulgrim, Primarch of the Emperor's Children in the aftermath of the Cleansing of Laeran.[1a] Unbeknownst to the Primarch however, it held the essence of a powerful Daemon of Slaanesh which would eventually overpower and possess Fulgrim during the Drop Site Massacre.[1b] After taking control of Fulgrim's body, the Daemon later gave the Silver Blade to Lucius, sensing great potential in the Captain.

As you can see, deamonic possession is in a way similar to machine spirit's actions. It can toy with its crews, it can threaten to overtake control of its machinery and even it can possess its users! Due to all of that, If you want to write off machine spirit as superstition, I suggest you do that too and to deamonic possession of equipment and weaponary.



Btw: last quotes of Barbarisater description:

Barbarisater felt him move before I did. It lurched in my hands. In the time it takes to draw a breath, we had exchanged a flurry of twenty of twenty or more blows.

I saw my moment. Barbarisater saw it too.

All of these quotes further proves that this weapon is possessed by a machine spirit.

All you did was cite evidence that Daemon Weapons have daemons in them. Meanwhile, don't take every line in a Black Library book to be 100% canon, because they are often contradictory. Authors are given quite a bit of artistic freedom, which is why canon is so obscure.

While there are other kinds of entities (C'tan, for example), any supernatural 'spirit' that could literally possess a weapon would be daemonic in origin. Bear in mind that Avatars of Khaine are still daemons. If Barbarisater is truly intelligent - and the anthropomorphism of the weapon was not simply prosaic - then it is possessed by a daemon or is warp-touched, unless it has some sort of bizarre AI in it for some reason.

I don't quite understand why you put up so many references/quotations to sentient daemon weapons. There are other supernatural weapons that are not sentient daemon weapons (tainted bolters that spew brazen bolts of fire, perhaps) - but it's all Warp-related. Implying that a machine-spirit is in fact a wholly unique entity unrelated to the Warp leads to the question; what is it, then, and why does it rest within machines? Such a question would require a whole new metaphysic. For example, saying that such things exist due to a Waaagh!-esque gestalt psychic field of humanity would have massive implications (meanwhile the Waaagh! is still Warp-related)!

EDIT: If one were to describe the jagged spikes jutting from a Battlewagon as "wicked" or "cruel", they would not be proving that the spikes are intelligent and actually capable of those feelings. If it were a Daemon Weapon keen on forcing its wielder to inflict pain and misery, it could be described as literally cruel. Perhaps a Daemon Weapon could be a completely reasonable and easy-going entity, but its physical form still has a "wicked blade". That does not prove that the entity is itself wicked. Eisenhorn could attribute his combat instinct to the blade's personality. Or perhaps his psyker abilities are granting him or the blade some form of supernatural prescience. Whatever the case, the blade cannot have its own intelligence unless daemon-infested, making it heretical. A machine-spirit is not "equivalent" to a daemon in any sense other than the "Power of the Machine-Spirit" and "Daemonic Possession" counterpart rules in the tabletop.

 Lynata wrote:

ThePrimordial wrote:Thoughts?

I'm thinking that you will see a lot of different ideas and interpretations all depending on where you do your reading.

To me, in almost all cases the "Machine Spirit" is simply superstition. Today's people's affinity to cursing or begging their computer, their car, or their TV when it does not work, dialed up to eleven and turned into a state religion for a dystopian future. More advanced technology in the setting, however, may actually have a "Machine Spirit" in a slightly truer sense, where a machine actually is capable of learning and self-governance - not due to some supernatural phenomenon, but simply due to the components used in its construction. When GW released a cross-section of a Land Raider, for example, there was a label "Machine Spirit" with an arrow to something that looked very much like a human brain in a jar wired into the vehicle's electronics.
It could be the Mechanicus' way to circumvent the AI ban, you know. After all, brains aren't artificial ...

Needless to say, however, you won't find something like this in, say, a lasgun or a voxcaster.

And of course this is just one of many possibilities, all of whom are equally valid.

Pretty much. "Machine Spirits" are a mixture of superstitious anthropomorphizing and denial of reality("it's not an AI, honest guv!"). Just as the various rituals of activation and maintenance performed by Techpriests are part rote-learned technical manual, (much bigger)part superstition.

Frozen Ocean, that was exactly my point. I wanted to show you all that deamonic possession can be extremely similar to machine spirit's workings. I do understand that Black Library cannot be completely trusted as viable source of cannon, but I think that's fine source of reference (thats why I quoted so much. I wanted to show consistency). Even more, if there is consistency between authors about certain things in warhammer's universe which fits in it well, then I consider Black library lore to overwrite fluff written by GW.

Barbarisater is unique anthropomorphism in Eisenhorn's novels. Author didn't personified anything else and due to that, I think that this reference is viable quote from fluff showing that machine spirits are real. I would like to receive counter quotes from fluff showing that machine spirit is just a superstition.

Keep in mind that I didn't wrote everything that I wanted to say. Then I will have enough time I will try to comment on other people ideas and possibilities. Now, I just want to reduce amount of that I will need to write about in a future, due to that, I try to keep my discussion as small as I can.


Another important thing is to understand that I'm not saying that adeptus mechanicus is right. I don't think that in every piece of technology has its machine spirit. I say that there is a tendency between complexity of machine and strength of its machine spirit. Also, I claim that humanity are a psychic race and it's impossible for them to worship nothing. As orks, if they believe that there is something supernatural, in time there will be a supernatural thing. Hence, some equipment gain its spirits due to a simple believe.
Also, it's my main theory of Barbarisater's machine spirit's origin. Long time of servitude and especially possible long history with psykers created a spirit. That spirit gained its character from emotions that was used in its creation. More, I think that in time this spirit will reach a level of consciousness. It might be in a battlefield there emotional energies runs rampant or even simple and long servitude for potent psyker would be enough to push this spirit to its evolution


I agree with you, deamonic possession can mimic workings of simple machinery. Even though, we must agree that same thing done by science isn't similar in its nature. Even more, I think that you will agree with me that mortals are excellent judges of deamonic and artificial things, hence, simple ''feeling'' is a viable argument to back up claims of supernatural existence.


Imperium is built on a lie. Even more, Imperium applies double standards to a lot of things. For example, they claim to be intolerant to any nature of warp entities and their manifestation. On the other hand, they openly worship deamons and do not hide that fact. Saints are prime example of that. And that's the difference between these two? Just allegiances. "Sanctioned" deamons simply are born from different kind of emotions or those emotions plays secondary role. Due to that, Imperium's deamons are more subtle. They do not need to force mortals into noticeable activities as human sacrifices. No, Saints thrive on religion. Humans do not need any kind of motivation to worship them, just mere proof that their faith is true will drive them into fanatical worship and draw even more of them to being a true members of Imperial creed. Think that would happen in real life if there would be sightings of angels. Not in ridiculous "UFO sightings" levels, but true encounters with them there would be plenty of witnesses with solid quality footage. It's similar matter and with machine spirits. Deamons in their very nature will try to encourage certain emotions which had made them. A machine does not need something spectacular. If it's born from believe then all its need to do is just to be noticed by its crew. Also, emotions which made it will define its character. Due to people believe that machine spirit is bound to certain machine will make machine spirits non-invasive and ''passive''.

Yodhrin wrote:the various rituals of activation and maintenance performed by Techpriests

"... then, after having finished sprinkling the sacred machine's metal skin with a sheet of blessed unguents you shalt strike the holy assemblage not once, not thrice, but exactly two times with a hydrospanner of a mark according to the machine's size (note that the use of any tools not sanctioned by an official of the Cult Mechanicus will anger its spirit and is thus discouraged on pain of servitor-recyclement) whilst simultaneously chanting the Rite of Activation. If thine incantation has been successful, the machine's spirit will then answer your prayers by diverting power through the auxiliary relay, provided you have pushed the sacred rune with the icons O and N into the socket earlier."

 Ernestas wrote:
I would like to receive counter quotes from fluff showing that machine spirit is just a superstition.

Except you never will, because everything is written from an in-character perspective? No Imperial Guardsman is going to talk about (or understand) the specifics of quantum physics, but it doesn't mean that quantum physics suddenly doesn't apply when Imperial Guardsmen are involved. If I were to write a story from the perspective of very small children, they wouldn't be thinking about applied thermodynamics. They might think that the sun is a giant lollipop. Relying entirely on quotes from the source material (a series of novels written entirely from the perspective of very small children) would 'prove' that the sun is, in fact, a giant lollipop. There is no outside source - there is no tech-priest character saying "Ah, machine-spirits are all superstition and this is why".

Saints are not daemons any more than Tyranids imbued with Feel No Pain from a Tervigon are daemons. Saints are mortals empowered by the psychic energies of the Emperor. Yes, that makes them Warp-related, but it does not make them daemons. The Imperium does not see The Emperor as merely a psyker. They believe that his power is divine, something wholly separate from The Warp. It is not, but to think so would be heresy.

Frozen Ocean wrote:Except you never will, because everything is written from an in-character perspective?

Yup - more or less that's exactly it. A lot of people take the stuff at face value when it was never meant to be an accurate retelling of facts. You have to read between the lines, but obviously even this depends hugely on personal interpretation (what still sounds sensible enough to be true for *my* 40k? what is just too weird?) ... just as GW intended it.

"Here's our standard line: Yes it's all official, but remember that we're reporting back from a time where stories aren't always true, or at least 100% accurate. if it has the 40K logo on it, it exists in the 40K universe. Or it was a legend that may well have happened. Or a rumour that may or may not have any truth behind it. Let's put it another way: anything with a 40K logo on it is as official as any Codex... and at least as crammed full of rumours, distorted legends and half-truths."
- Marc Gascoigne, discussing contradictions between sources of fluff

So, there never really can be a singular "true" answer to this question. Or to many other details of the setting, regardless of how much people like to argue about them, or how many wikis claim to know some sort of truth.

Machine Spirits have a strong argument going for their existence, however all may basically be attributed to technology. Let me give you an example.

Rynn's Might was a Land Raider that barely survived the rogue missile that destroyed the Crimson Fists' fortress monastery. It's crew had been killed by the missile, however, UNCREWED, the Land Raider laid waste to an Ork warband, killing a warboss and many of his lackeys. This is extremely strong evidence of the machine operating on it's own, perhaps even in revenge of it's crew and the chapter. Yeah, this may just be targeting systems. But that's boring. It doesn't explain how the crew cannot have knowledge of that.

We have such a ridiculous and fantastic universe, how is it hard to believe a machine as badass as a Land Raider or a Titan has it's own soul?

That's exactly my point. I'm yet to find anyone in fluff who could discredit existence of machine spirit even a little bit. All that we have is quotes which confirms that machine spirit is in fact a real thing.

About the emperor, he is just a rotting corpse sitting on his golden throne. He can't protect anyone, even less, to juice up individuals to such greater deamons levels. Even more, their tendency to appear in a middle of crusades suggests that they are born from crusaders emotions hence, they are same warp deamons.
Emperor is a different topic here. Can we leave questions of how powerful or how dead he is for another time?


Btw: their tendency to perish only to be reincarnated again speaks of deamonhood. Greater deamons share exactly same properties as Saints. They cannot be completely destroyed, only banished. Their ''deaths'' would shatter their souls or energy vortexes which would require time and possibly energy to be putted back together.

Legion of Flame wrote:Yeah, this may just be targeting systems. But that's boring. It doesn't explain how the crew cannot have knowledge of that.

Would you really have to ask, given how scienctific facts and procedures are controlled and passed on (or not) within the setting? Even the Space Marines have long since stopped being reasonable about technology, if one were to go by GW's fluff. The Rites of Initiation article, for example, is a neat description of the immense level of decay of knowledge the Imperium has been subject to even within the Astartes:

"Although a Chapter's Apothecaries and surgerons are able to perform the necessary implant operations, they do not necessarily understand the exact functioning of each organ. The processes involved are incredibly ancient. Procedures are handed down from generation to generation, becoming increasingly ritualised and misinterpreted. For these reasons, the efficiency of each organ differs from Chapter to Chapter, depending on the condition of that Chapter's gene-seeds and the degree of debasement of its surgical procedures."
- WD #247

Legion of Flame wrote:We have such a ridiculous and fantastic universe, how is it hard to believe a machine as badass as a Land Raider or a Titan has it's own soul?

Not hard at all, I think. It's really just a matter of preferences, not possibilities. How "fantastical" we like the setting to be, and where we draw the line between the various possibly supernatural elements.
The existence of psychic powers and how they can even spawn entities within the Warp is one thing, but it's another to jump from this to, say, the existence of actual divine magic, truly godlike Primarchs or, well, the default existence of "artificial souls" within each and every machine. Some people like it as incredible as possible, others prefer a slightly more "toned down" setting.

Ernestas wrote:That's exactly my point. I'm yet to find anyone in fluff who could discredit existence of machine spirit even a little bit. All that we have is quotes which confirms that machine spirit is in fact a real thing.
About the emperor, he is just a rotting corpse sitting on his golden throne. He can't protect anyone, even less, to juice up individuals to such greater deamons levels. Even more, their tendency to appear in a middle of crusades suggests that they are born from crusaders emotions hence, they are same warp deamons.

Your argument seems a bit contradictory there. Not that I personally don't agree about the Emperor and His abilities ... just that, for this topic, exactly the same applies as what you claim justifies the existence of "true" machine spirits. How comes you think one way about machine spirits, but another about the Emperor?

The Emperor is not "just" anything. He remains alive even if his body is rotted to nothing (mega life support on that brain), and projects the Astronomicon. His power is very real; the Sisters of Battle rely upon it for that whole Faith system they have going on. The Emperor's power is the means by which a Sisterhood can 'pray' to ward themselves against Chaos, even if the ones doing the prayer are not themselves psykers. Yes, Living Saints are quite like daemons. Not because they are actual daemons, but because they are both a kind of Warp entity. If Living Saints were daemons, of what Chaos God do they fall under? Tzeentch, because of hope? Khorne, because they show up during battle? Slaanesh, because they're beautiful? Are they Chaos Undivided? Are they spawned from Gork or Mork? Khaine? Malal?

Lynata, I love you. It is a matter of preferences, certainly, because 40k is pretty much all made of grey area and patchwork, both because of GW intent and because of author lack of care for fluff accuracy. There are a few things, though, that are just silly! Like saying that the crew should understand the workings of a Land Raider's computer, when they don't even know what computers are. Sorry, "logic engines".

Does this mean that automatic turrets are controlled by a literal spirit in the machine and not a computer? If so, why would Golden Age humans build such devices (presumably before the "belief" of machine-spirits took hold, because Golden Age humans had full understanding of what their technology was) purposefully leaving a function to the machine-spirit, something that wouldn't even have existed at that time? They built the Titans, too, so, if a machine-spirit is a Warp entity created by belief but is also necessary to the function of a Titan, then Titans would not function without them, meaning that Golden Age humans deliberately made Titans inoperable.

Golden Age humanity was extremely advanced, as we know. Well advanced enough to build extremely complex artificial intelligences. Land Raiders with automatic targeting and piloting systems would be nothing compared to what their technology was capable of. Now, if there was a fluff example of a suit of power armour suddenly animating (without Chaos involved) and going about a pious mission in the name of the Emperor, it'd be different.

I'm not sure that I'm following you.


Emperor is discredited by deamons and chaos followers constantly. Yes, they often say half-truths, but they have tendency to say exactly same tale even then it makes no difference to them. Also, there are no proof that Emperor can do anything or he is alive. Just coincidences or pure, random luck is credited to him. Maybe it's his will, but that would be just a wishful thinking.


Machine spirits on the other hand have some hard proof to show their existence. Throne of Lies features a spirit who bullies his navigator. Titans in ''Mechanicus" and in "Titanicus" novels both have their own personalities. In ''Dark mechanicus" there is also a proof of that. In soul drinkers novel there is a part there psyker sees machine's spirit then it goes into machine. Eisenhorn's novels consistently mentions Barbarisater as a live thing.
I think that there is enough proof to agree that some equipment really have its machine spirits.


Also, keep in mind that through novels it's shown that Imperium and more importantly, mechanicus knows a difference between A.I. (well, at very least in a heresy era), computers (they are called logic-engines) and workings of at least common used machinery as Enginseers improvisation and reputation have proved.

Ernestas wrote:Also, there are no proof that Emperor can do anything or he is alive. Just coincidences or pure, random luck is credited to him. Maybe it's his will, but that would be just a wishful thinking.

Sounds like something that could be applied to Machine Spirits.

Ernestas wrote:I think that there is enough proof to agree that some equipment really have its machine spirits.

Or maybe it's just the human(?) brains I've mentioned earlier.

And that's not even touching upon the fact that 40k is not an internally consistent setting. Novels feature but the individual author's interpretation of the setting - it's why the amount of contradictions both between them as well as to the studio material is so high. This is not treated as a flaw by GW, but rather as a strength of the material and the franchise. In a way, one could even say that it is impossible to deliver proof about anything, simply because one book cares not what another says. As much as it may sound like a cheap cop-out now, this is something to keep in mind when discussing the fluff.

Well, Ben Counter, Dan Abnett and Graham McNeill does agree with existence of machine spirits.

As I said before, just mere programming bug will not result in creating machine's personality. It's either A.I. or a spirit even though, spirit have more similarities with deamons than an A.I.


Tech-priests and Imperials do not have feelings of their machinery being alive all the time. It's more exclusive to a certain machinery which either is complex like titans or spaceships or ancient and venerated like Eisenhorn's sword. That stand in opposition of Mechanicus dogma that all machinery have spirits of varying degrees. Even more, equipment or weaponary which have its machine spirits does have empirical evidence like unique malfunctioning in ''Titanicus'', one titan liked to toy with its crew and to send fake enemy readings. No amount of repair and changing parts fixed the issue. Or ships who talk to their crews. It's difficult to deny a fact that you ship can talk as a personality despite having no A.I. or adequate equipment installed into it.

Dan Abnett also has servitors having snarky conversations with an Inquisitor and his retinue and experiencing the emotion of fear.

Dan Abnett can have whatever fluff he wants in his books, but that doesn't make it true to the setting as a whole.

I didn't known that fact, but a lot of authors rapes a fluff a little bit in order to tell a story.

For example, in Grey knights novels author forgets that they are the Grey knights and have them chatting with humans and doing simple scouting missions... Or a fact that they do not have an aura of pain around them and no deamon was shown to be tortured or highly annoyed by their presence. Or they sometimes just refuses to use ''holocaust'' and goes for classic bolter-porno action. Or in Eisenhorn's novels there our dear Inquisitor does not bother putting real and expendable body guards for himself and his HQ. I mean, Cadian's general inquisitor was impressed by him and there could have been arranged some private Kasrkin bodyguards. Or he could easily get their equivalents- stormtroopers. Knowing how respectable and powerful he have become, it constantly pains me to see him without any exotic equipment. Just his sword and staff are worth something...and his fruits of radicalism. But once again, it wouldn't be fun if story would be realistic? I mean, Eisenhorn's team owning everyone instantly.
There is also mysterious death of Bure which couldn't be more ridiculous... Mere human have near zero chance to kill magos if it isn't instant death. They would just hop in into nearest machine if their present platform is destroyed.


In conclusion, most authors tend to do such things. They might require some knowledge of warhammer to be noticed and mostly it's minor, story pushing, rule of cool issue. These little small things bothers me, but it isn't enough to ruin a story for me. I just try my best to ignore them or pretend it happened in another way.
Overall, my problem with authors is their unoriginallity. They just slide through lore's surface, doing right just most basic stuff if author is good. Just look at grey knights psychic abilities list, there is so much potential and yet it was done so little with it!


I'm sorry for this little off topic. I just wanted to show that most books aren't true to its universe then it comes to pushing its story or having some showtime for themselves and it shouldn't be judged by minor fluff rape.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
The Emperor is not "just" anything. He remains alive even if his body is rotted to nothing (mega life support on that brain), and projects the Astronomicon. His power is very real; the Sisters of Battle rely upon it for that whole Faith system they have going on. The Emperor's power is the means by which a Sisterhood can 'pray' to ward themselves against Chaos, even if the ones doing the prayer are not themselves psykers. Yes, Living Saints are quite like daemons. Not because they are actual daemons, but because they are both a kind of Warp entity. If Living Saints were daemons, of what Chaos God do they fall under? Tzeentch, because of hope? Khorne, because they show up during battle? Slaanesh, because they're beautiful? Are they Chaos Undivided? Are they spawned from Gork or Mork? Khaine? Malal?

Lynata, I love you. It is a matter of preferences, certainly, because 40k is pretty much all made of grey area and patchwork, both because of GW intent and because of author lack of care for fluff accuracy. There are a few things, though, that are just silly! Like saying that the crew should understand the workings of a Land Raider's computer, when they don't even know what computers are. Sorry, "logic engines".

Does this mean that automatic turrets are controlled by a literal spirit in the machine and not a computer? If so, why would Golden Age humans build such devices (presumably before the "belief" of machine-spirits took hold, because Golden Age humans had full understanding of what their technology was) purposefully leaving a function to the machine-spirit, something that wouldn't even have existed at that time? They built the Titans, too, so, if a machine-spirit is a Warp entity created by belief but is also necessary to the function of a Titan, then Titans would not function without them, meaning that Golden Age humans deliberately made Titans inoperable.

Golden Age humanity was extremely advanced, as we know. Well advanced enough to build extremely complex artificial intelligences. Land Raiders with automatic targeting and piloting systems would be nothing compared to what their technology was capable of. Now, if there was a fluff example of a suit of power armour suddenly animating (without Chaos involved) and going about a pious mission in the name of the Emperor, it'd be different.

You raise a lot of good points here. I would like to remember a topic where was discussed from where sisters powers might come from. In short it's coming from unknown limits of human body, self-conditioning and simple faith. You might agree with it or not, but I think it's not a place to talk about it. While it does relates to argument: how machine's spirit can be real then Emperor's influence is not? I think that question would lead us nowhere.
(Damn, now I need to think why powers are unique only for them and to buy old and new codexes )

Indeed, fluff can be interpreted you wish. It's why I like this universe, I can tailor it for myself and to argue why it's so.

While ignorance of technology is widespread in Imperium, I wouldn't agree on same believe that Adeptus mechanicus is ignorant about it. For me, this question is far more complex than common believe that 'they are stupid priests who worship machines". But once again, lets not argue about it if it's not necessary.
I wanted to disagree with your theory of ignorance. Machine spirits happens to more common in complex and ancient machinery. Machinery which was lost to Mechanicus and now are unique and irreplaceable artifacts and reminders of lost knowledge. Certainly, you will agree that ancient ships typically works better than a general new model? If yes, then I think that you also agree that this particular ship is well repaired and maintained and nothing is malfunctioning. Due to these facts, I would conclude that machine spirits need time to mature and have a tendency to appear in well-crafted machinery.
My last argument about machine spirit and tendency of it appearing on perfectly understood machinery can be observed in ''Dark Mechanicus" novel there a Castigator class titan, made in a golden age of technology and which represents a pinnacle of human technology, had an extremely strong machine spirit.

The issue of Machine Spirits; I'd once seen a theory (posted here, no less) that the Machine Spirits are indeed real, but they aren't what the Imperium believes they are. The theory posed that Machine Spirits are actually the descendants of the rogue AIs that caused the Men of Iron uprising. While humanity may have wiped out their machine bodies, they didn't count of the AIs being able to upload themselves out of their bodies and into humanity's data networks. With the Imperium's current technological state, the majority of humanity probably doesn't even know these networks exist anymore and the AIs can freely upload themselves into humanity's equipment whenever they please.

Now, while an interesting theory, I don't quite fully subscribe to it. Rather, I feel that the machine spirits are just plain old AIs, not necessarily the ones from the uprising. The Mechanicus just calls them machine spirits in order to get around the ban on AI and everybody just takes their word for it that they're actual souls rather than just intelligent programming.

They would just hop in into nearest machine if their present platform is destroyed.

Tech-Priests can't actually do this, by default. There's a specific bit of augmentation required to enable this, which Bure is not mentioned to have. Tech-Priests, even the ones that have their consciousness installed on a wafer of microchips, are still human beings (to a degree). They aren't walking computers.

Plus, Bure wasn't killed by "a regular human", he was killed by the rebuilt cyborg Pontius Glaw, which Bure himself had made. Bure's death falls squarely on Eisenhorn's head, as it was Eisenhorn who told Bure to build the heretic a body.

Personally, in regards to "Machine Spirits", I think it depends on the individual device in question, what kind it is and what its function is. I think that, in the case of most "high tech" devices, the ones that exhibit the most "sentience", is that this is an expression of the onboard pseudo-AI.... like Siri, for your Titan... who is providing the crew with suggestions, advice, instructions, telemetry data, targeting solutions, navigation plotting, and all those other functions. It's not truly intelligent or sentient in the normal sense, but it does a really good job of mimicking it.

I disagree about A.I. From other sources we can see how artificial intelligence typically behaves and machine spirits looks to be completely different in nature.

Machine spirits couldn't be products of programming due to how they are spreaded. For example, our famous land raider had a spirit powerful enough to go into killing spree without any guidance while others do not. If for example it would be a product of science then such incidents wouldn't be unique. Also, from previous portrayed A.I.s (in novel ''mechanicus'' is a great example of A.I) we can see that spirits are more emotional beings, not strictly logical ones and that is a strong evidence of them being deamons in nature.
There is a lot examples how machine spirits have feelings. My most recent example is same Eisenhorn's sword. Then he temporalely looses his sword, he can feel Barbarisater complaining and being displeased for being left alone in cold. It's a good example not only because it shows machine spirit emotions, but also it's observed in personal weaponary. Arguing by a common sense, I think that a sword shouldn't have any A.I. installed into it. Even more, I think that A.I. or traditional science is helpless in performing such feats of influence over mortals as possessed personal weapons, armor or books can do.


Psienesis, that is an interesting fact. Could you give me an exact name of those implants in order for me to find out more about them? Also, maybe you could direct me to sources there I could find more examples of this technology in use?

In any way, Bure was probably killed by servitor. It was suggested to Pontius Glaw as reward and I can't think of that enchantments Bure could have made to him in order to have even of slightest chance of being killed by this heretic. Unless, he have given him a combat servitor, but that is just ridiculous. No common servitor could have killed such high-ranking tech-priest. I have little doubt that Bure had some weapons installed into him for self-defence. Even without it, mechadendrites inhuman strength and endurance of his machine form would have resulted in one sided rolf-stomp of any servitor or whatever Glaw was given.

As Psienesis hinted at, it is of little use to compare sources, simply because every author has his own individual idea on what something like a Machine Spirit is. If you prefer that interpretation, cool - but your opinion isn't any more valid than anyone elses.

GW simply doesn't want to enforce a consistent setting, and debates such as these going in circles simply because everyone is pointing to different books is the price we have to pay for it.

No, interpreting are people who tells that machine spirits doesn't exists. Their position are devoid of sources and quotes and thats make them interpreting things and making warhammer's lore closer to their liking.

Unless of course, there is any GW's source that states or at very least, hints otherwise.

That's not how the franchise works.

"Whether a particular author’s take on the world matches up with an individual gamer’s or readers is another matter. The fact that each of us is allowed to take possession of that world and envisage it to our own ideal means that it is inevitable our vision will sometimes clash with the vision of others. Such conflict does not render either vision obsolete."
- Gav Thorpe

Also

Machine spirits couldn't be products of programming due to how they are spreaded. For example, our famous land raider had a spirit powerful enough to go into killing spree without any guidance while others do not. If for example it would be a product of science then such incidents wouldn't be unique. Also, from previous portrayed A.I.s (in novel ''mechanicus'' is a great example of A.I) we can see that spirits are more emotional beings, not strictly logical ones and that is a strong evidence of them being deamons in nature.

Pseudo-AI targeting control, firing solutions, computer-controlled weapon systems and an auto-loader. Allied targets have an identified IR signature through the auspex and targeters, enemy targets do not. The combat sub-routines of the auto-pilot system engage, its tactical computer analyzes its current damage, falls back on its "withdraw to rear-echelon repair facility" sub-routines, detects that its path is obstructed by enemy forces, engages its weapon systems to clear the obstruction, clears said obstruction, and then goes merrily on its auto-piloted way.

To the ignorant Imperial observer, the tank just started doing all of these things by itself, its crew dead, the "Machine Spirit" being roused to righteous anger.

I do not know story of Ryn's might, so I ask: Why did only one land raider activated himself? How did he decided that something went horribly wrong and it needs go to avenge its chapter? And also, if this programming is so effective then why bother with a crew? Just drink tea in the Emperor's name and let land raider to do all job.


Lynata, that's a proof that I asked for. Even though, for me it's taken out of content and I cannot read that's written there it's still better than nothing and it's still better than claiming something while having no fluff to back it up.

It's why I asked directly for GW's quote. I think their word weights more than a word of any author. Even though, I still think that it's possible to decide that's is right or most likely to be right from secondary sources such as authors or even third ones, such as fan-work. I believe that something is more than nothing, so if a person can't back it up with any evidence, then his opponent, given that he has legitimate amount of information to back it up, wins a discussion. (As I said, tendency between authors to portray same things similarly carries same or even more weight than GW's word).


But once again, it's me who wants to have authoritative sources of lore. If authors have no weight behind their stories and only GW's version is correct one, then I think that discussing warhammer is pointless. It has no lore! I can freely take GW's sources and twist their universe so much that it will have little to none similarities to its popular interpretation. It's quite easy then reading between lines or having plenty of stories to make common sense of its universe isn't an option. Just find anything that GW forgets to mention and reduce it or expand it as much as you want. Like: if they forgets to mention how widespread titans are? Then your absurdities such as: ''in w40k there are thousands of billions of titans in Emperor's service'' carries as much weight as any other opinion or argument.

Probably because the AdMech doesn't know how these parts work. They just know that the STC templates they have direct them to build the device in exactly this manner, and so they do, having absolutely no idea that the things they are putting under the hood are tactical computers, targeting-assistance arrays, fire-control systems and an Expert pseudo-AI that can control the vehicle's systems.

It is also possible that there's a switch on the dash that they don't know turns these systems on, so the crew is trained to never, ever, *ever* touch that switch... and, in this case? One guy dying bumped it with his elbow.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
... and how I come to this conclusion is not something that is stated outright anywhere, but is inferred from other, disparate sources regarding tangentially-related subjects in 40K.

We know, from the opening scrawl in just about every 40K publication, that the hope for technology and progress is gone, because "so much has been forgotten, never to be re-learned". We know, from a variety of sources, that the vast majority of Imperial citizens (including the vast bulk of the IG) are the living embodiments of "end users". They have not even grasped the simple step of "turning it off and back on again."

The Tech-Priests, themselves, are not *much* better in this regard. They understand how to fabricate parts, and how to put the parts together to assemble a plasma rifle, but they do not (by and large) understand *how* these parts work in unison to create the weapon's effects and ballistic profile. Mysticism and rote memorization has replaced actual knowledge and comprehension.

So, taking a pseudo-AI (like Siri, just very advanced) and introducing it to some very dim, tech-incompetent people, who practice technology like a religion, rather than as a science... yeah, you're going to get people believing that the machine actually has a spirit in it, one that requires veneration in order to maintain functionality.

Ernestas wrote:If authors have no weight behind their stories and only GW's version is correct one, then I think that discussing warhammer is pointless.

For better or worse, that is how the setting was set up by those in control. Although it should be pointed out that not even GW's material carries any more weight than novel interpretations or even fan-works, at least officially. Check out Gav Thorpe's blogpost I linked in the previous post where this is explained in detail, or take a look at famed BL author Aaron Dembski-Bowden discussing the issue here on dakka. GW does seem to keep a watchful eye on the style and atmosphere and some few key facts, however. It's just the details where authors of licensed material are granted artistic licence. Unfortunately the details do make up about 90% of the fluff ...

I'm actually the same as you in that I personally take GW's writings over those of "oursourced" material like BL novels or FFG's RPG - but I had to accept that this doesn't make it more true or correct, and that I cannot enforce my personal (GW-inspired) vision of the 41st millennium upon others who might favour some novel author's or FFG's idea of the setting. It took me quite a long time (and a long hunt through the internet to find quotes such as these) to get to this realisation, simply because the 40k fandom is so fixated on its wish for canonicity, and when I was young/naive/inexperienced, I just accepted it because .. well, it's what I've been told by all the other fans!

Debates about the fluff not making sense under this condition is something that I have remarked in the past, as well. In the end, I resorted to the stance that I'm just here to inform people that there are alternate interpretations, what they are exactly, and that they don't have to adopt it if they don't like it. Because a lot of fans are still being misled by the urban rumour I bemoaned above.

 Ernestas wrote:
I do not know story of Ryn's might, so I ask: Why did only one land raider activated himself? How did he decided that something went horribly wrong and it needs go to avenge its chapter? And also, if this programming is so effective then why bother with a crew? Just drink tea in the Emperor's name and let land raider to do all job.

Maybe Rynn's Might had developed a bondage with his crew (now dead)? Maybe he somehow sensed, psychically or by the elimination of their friendly tage, that they especially had been killed? Maybe it was the only Land Raider that's Machine Spirit could function?

I'll quote the Codex, which is as good as anything when it comes to fluff.

Codex: Space Marines, Page 81, Paragraph 4, Line 6

'Indeed, the Crimson Fists tell that the uncrewed Land Raider Rynn's Might, narrowly surviving the missile that levelled their Fortress Monastery, immediately thereafter fought a solo war against a rampaging Ork warband...'

While this isn't straight up proof, it is rather compelling. It is obviously one of the only, or one of the few, Crimson Fist's Land Raiders that survived the missile, therefore explaining why it was the only one. It also gives compelling evidence that it can at least process a large amount of information, as if it was a living being. Maybe it was revenge that motivated it; maybe simple identification of foes. It can be interpreted many ways.

Or, to provide yet another option, this legend (note the "tell" in the text) is just a misunderstanding, and whoever saw that Land Raider actually just mistook it for the uncrewed Rynn's Might when it was actually the crewed Thule's Valor. Or it was the right tank and for some reason was crewed without it later making it into the records ...

Not an interpretation that I personally follow (I prefer the quasi-AI), but there are many ways to explain things like these, and simple mistakes and hyperbole are amongst them. As Marc Gascogne once said, these books are "crammed full of rumours, distorted legends and half-truths".

 Lynata wrote:
Or, to provide yet another option, this legend (note the "tell" in the text) is just a misunderstanding, and whoever saw that Land Raider actually just mistook it for the uncrewed Rynn's Might when it was actually the crewed Thule's Valor. Or it was the right tank and for some reason was crewed without it later making it into the records ...

Not an interpretation that I personally follow (I prefer the quasi-AI), but there are many ways to explain things like these, and simple mistakes and hyperbole are amongst them. As Marc Gascogne once said, these books are "crammed full of rumours, distorted legends and half-truths".

This. The "Machine Spirit" concept isn't "just AI" or "just superstition" or just anything, it's a long amalgamation of legends, based on misunderstandings of what technology is and is capable of doing by people ignorant of the facts, filtered through an anthropomorphizing religion by which it has become dogma. Some Machine Spirits are advanced tactical AI, some are collections of predictive and reactive algorithms without sentient will, some only exist in the minds of the people using the item in question("Oh no, my Whatsit won't start up today, I must have angered it somehow!").

And as for there being nothing in the fluff to support that interpretation; read the Ciaphas Cane books chaps, you will find exactly that. Or does in-character fluff only count if it's super-serious?

Yep, exactly that. It's a mix of technological possibility mixed with the sci-fi-fantasy setting of 40K, which has space-ships driven by magic-engines, mixed with the superstitions of a population that celebrates its ignorance as an act of religious devotion....

... related through tales told by people light-years away from the events they're describing.

I do not buy that attitude towards mechanicus. In heresy era they were quite competent and even in w40k they are often are shown as competent too. Their stagnation and degradation comes from hoarding knowledge and protecting it to extremes. To them, knowledge is an indicator of your social status, your well-being, your wealth. In other words, knowledge to them is that to us would be money, influence, mojo and etcetera. It's no wonder that it's protected to such levels that they themselves do not know that they know.


So, how many things can you deem as legends, incidents or programming then talking about machine spirits? Doesn't machine spirits makes perfect sense? In an universe there gods can be born from a simple lifestyle, can't it be a same thing and with machine spirits? Humans are psychic race, their believes and emotions shapes and fuels the warp. Can't it be that humans by their believe and emotional energies are able to create real spirits in machinery? I think, no one will deny that demons can be created in the same way, so why it cannot be done and for machine spirits?



Btw: It will take me some time to read all that given information. While I dislike idea that I can't create true lore by combining all sources about it, I respect one's right to have its own version of warhammer. After all, I too claim Titans to be far bigger despite of that most of the sources say...

 Pilau Rice wrote:


I'm pretty sure that I read somewhere that spirits of machines had an imprint but I can't seem to find it anymore, I could have sworn I read it in the 6th Ed rule book but reading last night couldn't find it.

Hopefully this doesn't count as a necro, but I thought I would post the reference I was referring to here. It's not from the Rulebook, but from the Chaos 6th Ed Codex under Mutilators.

Even the smallest scalpel has a psychic reflection in the warp - a splinter of potential that becomes the stronger the more harm the weapon cuases. The eldest of weapons having claimed the hot blood of countless victims, have strong but simple war-spirits that thirst for battle. A true relic may even have a limited sentience or be possessed of a battle lust that surpasses that of its wielder - p43

So it's not quite about the machine spirit itself, but how things have a psychic imprint which can lead to sentience.

Never before this thread it had occurred to me that people could think that machine spirits are literal spirits instead of superstition and (possibly cybernetic) computers.

I always thought they used actual human brains in order to install the 'machine spirits'.

Reading this - I've no idea where I got that from

 PredaKhaine wrote:
I always thought they used actual human brains in order to install the 'machine spirits'.

Same here.
This topic was hot back in the eighties: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wetware_computer

Some Sci-fi books used wetware as AI equivalents, and I always assumed Machine Spirits are just that. They are alive, they can be possessed (and turn into demons), they have their own personality, they can rebel, and they look like brains. They can sleep, they react to adrenaline injected on them...

Also, this is from the last Space Marine codex (Ranged Weapons section):

The skyspear missile launcher fires pre-blessed savant warheads, each a relic in its own
right, housing the entombed remains of a distinguished chapterserf. This servitor’s
mummified brain augments the missile’s auto-targeters, allowing it to second-guess
enemy pilots or home in on the heretical emissions of their debased machine spirits.
Against the dogged pursuit of a savant warhead and its macabre pilot, there can be little
chance of escape, while the tank’s servo-loaders maintain a steady rate of fire.

I'm sure the mechanicus uses wetware for servitors and skitaari - I've just re-read the middle book in the dark apostle series (dark disciple?) and the corrupted tech priest is able to plant knowledge into another tech priests(albeit of a lower rank) head and retrieve it at a later date.
I just assumed that carried through - it would explain how machine spirits get corrupted

I'd not read about those missiles (I don't play vanilla marines) so thatnks for the quote -also thanks for the link - that was an interesting read

 PredaKhaine wrote:
I'm sure the mechanicus uses wetware for servitors and skitaari - I've just re-read the middle book in the dark apostle series (dark disciple?) and the corrupted tech priest is able to plant knowledge into another tech priests(albeit of a lower rank) head and retrieve it at a later date.
I just assumed that carried through - it would explain how machine spirits get corrupted

I'd not read about those missiles (I don't play vanilla marines) so thatnks for the quote -also thanks for the link - that was an interesting read

They make a pretty clear distinction between wetware and AI in First Heretic. The Ad Mec Detachment of the 47th expeditionary fleet has several constructs that are run on wetware and get some screentime. The magos working on them even has an internal dialogue concerning it. Wetware is where the AdMec stops when it concerns giving machines any degree of sentients (that is to say, they don't do it. Wetware is still a biological entity controlling a mechanical one).

The Kaban project was a good read too - the admech gave a robot construct true AI.
The next time we see it, it's been possessed/corrupted. Which makes me think - can deamons in 40k possess a computer?
I always thought possession relied on things having a soul.

Or intelligence. After all, the AI rebelled against humanity at some point in the distant past.

Data Demons are used by the Dark Mechanicus. And I think the bad guy in "Dark Adeptus" was some form of AI turned demonic. There is a lot of talking in the book about what it really is, but at the end is either a computer turned demon or a demonically possessed computer.

 PredaKhaine wrote:

I'd not read about those missiles (I don't play vanilla marines) so thatnks for the quote -also thanks for the link - that was an interesting read

You are welcome. I love this kind of stuff.

 PredaKhaine wrote:
The Kaban project was a good read too - the admech gave a robot construct true AI.
The next time we see it, it's been possessed/corrupted. Which makes me think - can deamons in 40k possess a computer?
I always thought possession relied on things having a soul.

40K daemons can possess anything, tanks, weapons, toasters and probably even rocks. No soul is required.

 Crimson wrote:

 PredaKhaine wrote:
The Kaban project was a good read too - the admech gave a robot construct true AI.
The next time we see it, it's been possessed/corrupted. Which makes me think - can deamons in 40k possess a computer?
I always thought possession relied on things having a soul.

40K daemons can possess anything, tanks, weapons, toasters and probably even rocks. No soul is required.

I want to see a possessed toaster now

 ThePrimordial wrote:
So I did a lot of reading and looking around and there's a distinct possibility that advanced and complex machines like Titans, Baneblades, Land Raiders are in possession of a physical soul. As in they go to the warp when they die. I don't know exactly the pretenses that must be met to be in possession of a soul but everything living in 40k has a soul even daemons. The only thing that all of these have in common are sapience. Given that living things become daemons by showing off in a god's domain, and the presence of daemonic beasts, random animals might become daemons. So all that might be required to have a warp presence large enough to have a soul is personality,functioning thinking,& emotions. This would explain why rogue titans are referred to as corrupted because they actually are. Thoughts?

In the book Helsreach, there is a great description with a princeps trying to maintain control of a warlord titan's spirit. It describes the titan's rage trying to overpower her, and that all previous princeps have had their own souls sucked into this machine's soul.

The warlord is made out to be an extremely powerful entity, aside from the acutal physical power, that is.

On the subject of corruption, I think it is more likely that a corrupted titan is simply one that is controlled by a corrupted princeps, as theey can override the titan's own will.

When my Xbox broke I prayed to the machine god to fix and begged the machine spirts in it to start working it ignore me.

Did you burn incense, light candles, anoint it with sacred machine oil and chant the Litany of Resuscitation?

No? Well, that's why it didn't work, you were doing it wrong.

I used up my supplies on my car

This sounds as a new faction.
HQ: daemonic XBox.
Troops: possessed roasters.

I believe there is a 40k comic that is a monologue of a bolter that talks of its companion (the Space Marine) and how it has served him for so long.