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Frozen Ocean wrote:Except you never will, because everything is written from an in-character perspective?

Yup - more or less that's exactly it. A lot of people take the stuff at face value when it was never meant to be an accurate retelling of facts. You have to read between the lines, but obviously even this depends hugely on personal interpretation (what still sounds sensible enough to be true for *my* 40k? what is just too weird?) ... just as GW intended it.

"Here's our standard line: Yes it's all official, but remember that we're reporting back from a time where stories aren't always true, or at least 100% accurate. if it has the 40K logo on it, it exists in the 40K universe. Or it was a legend that may well have happened. Or a rumour that may or may not have any truth behind it. Let's put it another way: anything with a 40K logo on it is as official as any Codex... and at least as crammed full of rumours, distorted legends and half-truths."
- Marc Gascoigne, discussing contradictions between sources of fluff

So, there never really can be a singular "true" answer to this question. Or to many other details of the setting, regardless of how much people like to argue about them, or how many wikis claim to know some sort of truth.

Machine Spirits have a strong argument going for their existence, however all may basically be attributed to technology. Let me give you an example.

Rynn's Might was a Land Raider that barely survived the rogue missile that destroyed the Crimson Fists' fortress monastery. It's crew had been killed by the missile, however, UNCREWED, the Land Raider laid waste to an Ork warband, killing a warboss and many of his lackeys. This is extremely strong evidence of the machine operating on it's own, perhaps even in revenge of it's crew and the chapter. Yeah, this may just be targeting systems. But that's boring. It doesn't explain how the crew cannot have knowledge of that.

We have such a ridiculous and fantastic universe, how is it hard to believe a machine as badass as a Land Raider or a Titan has it's own soul?

That's exactly my point. I'm yet to find anyone in fluff who could discredit existence of machine spirit even a little bit. All that we have is quotes which confirms that machine spirit is in fact a real thing.

About the emperor, he is just a rotting corpse sitting on his golden throne. He can't protect anyone, even less, to juice up individuals to such greater deamons levels. Even more, their tendency to appear in a middle of crusades suggests that they are born from crusaders emotions hence, they are same warp deamons.
Emperor is a different topic here. Can we leave questions of how powerful or how dead he is for another time?


Btw: their tendency to perish only to be reincarnated again speaks of deamonhood. Greater deamons share exactly same properties as Saints. They cannot be completely destroyed, only banished. Their ''deaths'' would shatter their souls or energy vortexes which would require time and possibly energy to be putted back together.

Legion of Flame wrote:Yeah, this may just be targeting systems. But that's boring. It doesn't explain how the crew cannot have knowledge of that.

Would you really have to ask, given how scienctific facts and procedures are controlled and passed on (or not) within the setting? Even the Space Marines have long since stopped being reasonable about technology, if one were to go by GW's fluff. The Rites of Initiation article, for example, is a neat description of the immense level of decay of knowledge the Imperium has been subject to even within the Astartes:

"Although a Chapter's Apothecaries and surgerons are able to perform the necessary implant operations, they do not necessarily understand the exact functioning of each organ. The processes involved are incredibly ancient. Procedures are handed down from generation to generation, becoming increasingly ritualised and misinterpreted. For these reasons, the efficiency of each organ differs from Chapter to Chapter, depending on the condition of that Chapter's gene-seeds and the degree of debasement of its surgical procedures."
- WD #247

Legion of Flame wrote:We have such a ridiculous and fantastic universe, how is it hard to believe a machine as badass as a Land Raider or a Titan has it's own soul?

Not hard at all, I think. It's really just a matter of preferences, not possibilities. How "fantastical" we like the setting to be, and where we draw the line between the various possibly supernatural elements.
The existence of psychic powers and how they can even spawn entities within the Warp is one thing, but it's another to jump from this to, say, the existence of actual divine magic, truly godlike Primarchs or, well, the default existence of "artificial souls" within each and every machine. Some people like it as incredible as possible, others prefer a slightly more "toned down" setting.

Ernestas wrote:That's exactly my point. I'm yet to find anyone in fluff who could discredit existence of machine spirit even a little bit. All that we have is quotes which confirms that machine spirit is in fact a real thing.
About the emperor, he is just a rotting corpse sitting on his golden throne. He can't protect anyone, even less, to juice up individuals to such greater deamons levels. Even more, their tendency to appear in a middle of crusades suggests that they are born from crusaders emotions hence, they are same warp deamons.

Your argument seems a bit contradictory there. Not that I personally don't agree about the Emperor and His abilities ... just that, for this topic, exactly the same applies as what you claim justifies the existence of "true" machine spirits. How comes you think one way about machine spirits, but another about the Emperor?

The Emperor is not "just" anything. He remains alive even if his body is rotted to nothing (mega life support on that brain), and projects the Astronomicon. His power is very real; the Sisters of Battle rely upon it for that whole Faith system they have going on. The Emperor's power is the means by which a Sisterhood can 'pray' to ward themselves against Chaos, even if the ones doing the prayer are not themselves psykers. Yes, Living Saints are quite like daemons. Not because they are actual daemons, but because they are both a kind of Warp entity. If Living Saints were daemons, of what Chaos God do they fall under? Tzeentch, because of hope? Khorne, because they show up during battle? Slaanesh, because they're beautiful? Are they Chaos Undivided? Are they spawned from Gork or Mork? Khaine? Malal?

Lynata, I love you. It is a matter of preferences, certainly, because 40k is pretty much all made of grey area and patchwork, both because of GW intent and because of author lack of care for fluff accuracy. There are a few things, though, that are just silly! Like saying that the crew should understand the workings of a Land Raider's computer, when they don't even know what computers are. Sorry, "logic engines".

Does this mean that automatic turrets are controlled by a literal spirit in the machine and not a computer? If so, why would Golden Age humans build such devices (presumably before the "belief" of machine-spirits took hold, because Golden Age humans had full understanding of what their technology was) purposefully leaving a function to the machine-spirit, something that wouldn't even have existed at that time? They built the Titans, too, so, if a machine-spirit is a Warp entity created by belief but is also necessary to the function of a Titan, then Titans would not function without them, meaning that Golden Age humans deliberately made Titans inoperable.

Golden Age humanity was extremely advanced, as we know. Well advanced enough to build extremely complex artificial intelligences. Land Raiders with automatic targeting and piloting systems would be nothing compared to what their technology was capable of. Now, if there was a fluff example of a suit of power armour suddenly animating (without Chaos involved) and going about a pious mission in the name of the Emperor, it'd be different.

I'm not sure that I'm following you.


Emperor is discredited by deamons and chaos followers constantly. Yes, they often say half-truths, but they have tendency to say exactly same tale even then it makes no difference to them. Also, there are no proof that Emperor can do anything or he is alive. Just coincidences or pure, random luck is credited to him. Maybe it's his will, but that would be just a wishful thinking.


Machine spirits on the other hand have some hard proof to show their existence. Throne of Lies features a spirit who bullies his navigator. Titans in ''Mechanicus" and in "Titanicus" novels both have their own personalities. In ''Dark mechanicus" there is also a proof of that. In soul drinkers novel there is a part there psyker sees machine's spirit then it goes into machine. Eisenhorn's novels consistently mentions Barbarisater as a live thing.
I think that there is enough proof to agree that some equipment really have its machine spirits.


Also, keep in mind that through novels it's shown that Imperium and more importantly, mechanicus knows a difference between A.I. (well, at very least in a heresy era), computers (they are called logic-engines) and workings of at least common used machinery as Enginseers improvisation and reputation have proved.

Ernestas wrote:Also, there are no proof that Emperor can do anything or he is alive. Just coincidences or pure, random luck is credited to him. Maybe it's his will, but that would be just a wishful thinking.

Sounds like something that could be applied to Machine Spirits.

Ernestas wrote:I think that there is enough proof to agree that some equipment really have its machine spirits.

Or maybe it's just the human(?) brains I've mentioned earlier.

And that's not even touching upon the fact that 40k is not an internally consistent setting. Novels feature but the individual author's interpretation of the setting - it's why the amount of contradictions both between them as well as to the studio material is so high. This is not treated as a flaw by GW, but rather as a strength of the material and the franchise. In a way, one could even say that it is impossible to deliver proof about anything, simply because one book cares not what another says. As much as it may sound like a cheap cop-out now, this is something to keep in mind when discussing the fluff.

Well, Ben Counter, Dan Abnett and Graham McNeill does agree with existence of machine spirits.

As I said before, just mere programming bug will not result in creating machine's personality. It's either A.I. or a spirit even though, spirit have more similarities with deamons than an A.I.


Tech-priests and Imperials do not have feelings of their machinery being alive all the time. It's more exclusive to a certain machinery which either is complex like titans or spaceships or ancient and venerated like Eisenhorn's sword. That stand in opposition of Mechanicus dogma that all machinery have spirits of varying degrees. Even more, equipment or weaponary which have its machine spirits does have empirical evidence like unique malfunctioning in ''Titanicus'', one titan liked to toy with its crew and to send fake enemy readings. No amount of repair and changing parts fixed the issue. Or ships who talk to their crews. It's difficult to deny a fact that you ship can talk as a personality despite having no A.I. or adequate equipment installed into it.

Dan Abnett also has servitors having snarky conversations with an Inquisitor and his retinue and experiencing the emotion of fear.

Dan Abnett can have whatever fluff he wants in his books, but that doesn't make it true to the setting as a whole.

I didn't known that fact, but a lot of authors rapes a fluff a little bit in order to tell a story.

For example, in Grey knights novels author forgets that they are the Grey knights and have them chatting with humans and doing simple scouting missions... Or a fact that they do not have an aura of pain around them and no deamon was shown to be tortured or highly annoyed by their presence. Or they sometimes just refuses to use ''holocaust'' and goes for classic bolter-porno action. Or in Eisenhorn's novels there our dear Inquisitor does not bother putting real and expendable body guards for himself and his HQ. I mean, Cadian's general inquisitor was impressed by him and there could have been arranged some private Kasrkin bodyguards. Or he could easily get their equivalents- stormtroopers. Knowing how respectable and powerful he have become, it constantly pains me to see him without any exotic equipment. Just his sword and staff are worth something...and his fruits of radicalism. But once again, it wouldn't be fun if story would be realistic? I mean, Eisenhorn's team owning everyone instantly.
There is also mysterious death of Bure which couldn't be more ridiculous... Mere human have near zero chance to kill magos if it isn't instant death. They would just hop in into nearest machine if their present platform is destroyed.


In conclusion, most authors tend to do such things. They might require some knowledge of warhammer to be noticed and mostly it's minor, story pushing, rule of cool issue. These little small things bothers me, but it isn't enough to ruin a story for me. I just try my best to ignore them or pretend it happened in another way.
Overall, my problem with authors is their unoriginallity. They just slide through lore's surface, doing right just most basic stuff if author is good. Just look at grey knights psychic abilities list, there is so much potential and yet it was done so little with it!


I'm sorry for this little off topic. I just wanted to show that most books aren't true to its universe then it comes to pushing its story or having some showtime for themselves and it shouldn't be judged by minor fluff rape.


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 Frozen Ocean wrote:
The Emperor is not "just" anything. He remains alive even if his body is rotted to nothing (mega life support on that brain), and projects the Astronomicon. His power is very real; the Sisters of Battle rely upon it for that whole Faith system they have going on. The Emperor's power is the means by which a Sisterhood can 'pray' to ward themselves against Chaos, even if the ones doing the prayer are not themselves psykers. Yes, Living Saints are quite like daemons. Not because they are actual daemons, but because they are both a kind of Warp entity. If Living Saints were daemons, of what Chaos God do they fall under? Tzeentch, because of hope? Khorne, because they show up during battle? Slaanesh, because they're beautiful? Are they Chaos Undivided? Are they spawned from Gork or Mork? Khaine? Malal?

Lynata, I love you. It is a matter of preferences, certainly, because 40k is pretty much all made of grey area and patchwork, both because of GW intent and because of author lack of care for fluff accuracy. There are a few things, though, that are just silly! Like saying that the crew should understand the workings of a Land Raider's computer, when they don't even know what computers are. Sorry, "logic engines".

Does this mean that automatic turrets are controlled by a literal spirit in the machine and not a computer? If so, why would Golden Age humans build such devices (presumably before the "belief" of machine-spirits took hold, because Golden Age humans had full understanding of what their technology was) purposefully leaving a function to the machine-spirit, something that wouldn't even have existed at that time? They built the Titans, too, so, if a machine-spirit is a Warp entity created by belief but is also necessary to the function of a Titan, then Titans would not function without them, meaning that Golden Age humans deliberately made Titans inoperable.

Golden Age humanity was extremely advanced, as we know. Well advanced enough to build extremely complex artificial intelligences. Land Raiders with automatic targeting and piloting systems would be nothing compared to what their technology was capable of. Now, if there was a fluff example of a suit of power armour suddenly animating (without Chaos involved) and going about a pious mission in the name of the Emperor, it'd be different.

You raise a lot of good points here. I would like to remember a topic where was discussed from where sisters powers might come from. In short it's coming from unknown limits of human body, self-conditioning and simple faith. You might agree with it or not, but I think it's not a place to talk about it. While it does relates to argument: how machine's spirit can be real then Emperor's influence is not? I think that question would lead us nowhere.
(Damn, now I need to think why powers are unique only for them and to buy old and new codexes )

Indeed, fluff can be interpreted you wish. It's why I like this universe, I can tailor it for myself and to argue why it's so.

While ignorance of technology is widespread in Imperium, I wouldn't agree on same believe that Adeptus mechanicus is ignorant about it. For me, this question is far more complex than common believe that 'they are stupid priests who worship machines". But once again, lets not argue about it if it's not necessary.
I wanted to disagree with your theory of ignorance. Machine spirits happens to more common in complex and ancient machinery. Machinery which was lost to Mechanicus and now are unique and irreplaceable artifacts and reminders of lost knowledge. Certainly, you will agree that ancient ships typically works better than a general new model? If yes, then I think that you also agree that this particular ship is well repaired and maintained and nothing is malfunctioning. Due to these facts, I would conclude that machine spirits need time to mature and have a tendency to appear in well-crafted machinery.
My last argument about machine spirit and tendency of it appearing on perfectly understood machinery can be observed in ''Dark Mechanicus" novel there a Castigator class titan, made in a golden age of technology and which represents a pinnacle of human technology, had an extremely strong machine spirit.

The issue of Machine Spirits; I'd once seen a theory (posted here, no less) that the Machine Spirits are indeed real, but they aren't what the Imperium believes they are. The theory posed that Machine Spirits are actually the descendants of the rogue AIs that caused the Men of Iron uprising. While humanity may have wiped out their machine bodies, they didn't count of the AIs being able to upload themselves out of their bodies and into humanity's data networks. With the Imperium's current technological state, the majority of humanity probably doesn't even know these networks exist anymore and the AIs can freely upload themselves into humanity's equipment whenever they please.

Now, while an interesting theory, I don't quite fully subscribe to it. Rather, I feel that the machine spirits are just plain old AIs, not necessarily the ones from the uprising. The Mechanicus just calls them machine spirits in order to get around the ban on AI and everybody just takes their word for it that they're actual souls rather than just intelligent programming.

They would just hop in into nearest machine if their present platform is destroyed.

Tech-Priests can't actually do this, by default. There's a specific bit of augmentation required to enable this, which Bure is not mentioned to have. Tech-Priests, even the ones that have their consciousness installed on a wafer of microchips, are still human beings (to a degree). They aren't walking computers.

Plus, Bure wasn't killed by "a regular human", he was killed by the rebuilt cyborg Pontius Glaw, which Bure himself had made. Bure's death falls squarely on Eisenhorn's head, as it was Eisenhorn who told Bure to build the heretic a body.

Personally, in regards to "Machine Spirits", I think it depends on the individual device in question, what kind it is and what its function is. I think that, in the case of most "high tech" devices, the ones that exhibit the most "sentience", is that this is an expression of the onboard pseudo-AI.... like Siri, for your Titan... who is providing the crew with suggestions, advice, instructions, telemetry data, targeting solutions, navigation plotting, and all those other functions. It's not truly intelligent or sentient in the normal sense, but it does a really good job of mimicking it.

I disagree about A.I. From other sources we can see how artificial intelligence typically behaves and machine spirits looks to be completely different in nature.

Machine spirits couldn't be products of programming due to how they are spreaded. For example, our famous land raider had a spirit powerful enough to go into killing spree without any guidance while others do not. If for example it would be a product of science then such incidents wouldn't be unique. Also, from previous portrayed A.I.s (in novel ''mechanicus'' is a great example of A.I) we can see that spirits are more emotional beings, not strictly logical ones and that is a strong evidence of them being deamons in nature.
There is a lot examples how machine spirits have feelings. My most recent example is same Eisenhorn's sword. Then he temporalely looses his sword, he can feel Barbarisater complaining and being displeased for being left alone in cold. It's a good example not only because it shows machine spirit emotions, but also it's observed in personal weaponary. Arguing by a common sense, I think that a sword shouldn't have any A.I. installed into it. Even more, I think that A.I. or traditional science is helpless in performing such feats of influence over mortals as possessed personal weapons, armor or books can do.


Psienesis, that is an interesting fact. Could you give me an exact name of those implants in order for me to find out more about them? Also, maybe you could direct me to sources there I could find more examples of this technology in use?

In any way, Bure was probably killed by servitor. It was suggested to Pontius Glaw as reward and I can't think of that enchantments Bure could have made to him in order to have even of slightest chance of being killed by this heretic. Unless, he have given him a combat servitor, but that is just ridiculous. No common servitor could have killed such high-ranking tech-priest. I have little doubt that Bure had some weapons installed into him for self-defence. Even without it, mechadendrites inhuman strength and endurance of his machine form would have resulted in one sided rolf-stomp of any servitor or whatever Glaw was given.

As Psienesis hinted at, it is of little use to compare sources, simply because every author has his own individual idea on what something like a Machine Spirit is. If you prefer that interpretation, cool - but your opinion isn't any more valid than anyone elses.

GW simply doesn't want to enforce a consistent setting, and debates such as these going in circles simply because everyone is pointing to different books is the price we have to pay for it.

No, interpreting are people who tells that machine spirits doesn't exists. Their position are devoid of sources and quotes and thats make them interpreting things and making warhammer's lore closer to their liking.

Unless of course, there is any GW's source that states or at very least, hints otherwise.

That's not how the franchise works.

"Whether a particular author’s take on the world matches up with an individual gamer’s or readers is another matter. The fact that each of us is allowed to take possession of that world and envisage it to our own ideal means that it is inevitable our vision will sometimes clash with the vision of others. Such conflict does not render either vision obsolete."
- Gav Thorpe

Also

Machine spirits couldn't be products of programming due to how they are spreaded. For example, our famous land raider had a spirit powerful enough to go into killing spree without any guidance while others do not. If for example it would be a product of science then such incidents wouldn't be unique. Also, from previous portrayed A.I.s (in novel ''mechanicus'' is a great example of A.I) we can see that spirits are more emotional beings, not strictly logical ones and that is a strong evidence of them being deamons in nature.

Pseudo-AI targeting control, firing solutions, computer-controlled weapon systems and an auto-loader. Allied targets have an identified IR signature through the auspex and targeters, enemy targets do not. The combat sub-routines of the auto-pilot system engage, its tactical computer analyzes its current damage, falls back on its "withdraw to rear-echelon repair facility" sub-routines, detects that its path is obstructed by enemy forces, engages its weapon systems to clear the obstruction, clears said obstruction, and then goes merrily on its auto-piloted way.

To the ignorant Imperial observer, the tank just started doing all of these things by itself, its crew dead, the "Machine Spirit" being roused to righteous anger.

I do not know story of Ryn's might, so I ask: Why did only one land raider activated himself? How did he decided that something went horribly wrong and it needs go to avenge its chapter? And also, if this programming is so effective then why bother with a crew? Just drink tea in the Emperor's name and let land raider to do all job.


Lynata, that's a proof that I asked for. Even though, for me it's taken out of content and I cannot read that's written there it's still better than nothing and it's still better than claiming something while having no fluff to back it up.

It's why I asked directly for GW's quote. I think their word weights more than a word of any author. Even though, I still think that it's possible to decide that's is right or most likely to be right from secondary sources such as authors or even third ones, such as fan-work. I believe that something is more than nothing, so if a person can't back it up with any evidence, then his opponent, given that he has legitimate amount of information to back it up, wins a discussion. (As I said, tendency between authors to portray same things similarly carries same or even more weight than GW's word).


But once again, it's me who wants to have authoritative sources of lore. If authors have no weight behind their stories and only GW's version is correct one, then I think that discussing warhammer is pointless. It has no lore! I can freely take GW's sources and twist their universe so much that it will have little to none similarities to its popular interpretation. It's quite easy then reading between lines or having plenty of stories to make common sense of its universe isn't an option. Just find anything that GW forgets to mention and reduce it or expand it as much as you want. Like: if they forgets to mention how widespread titans are? Then your absurdities such as: ''in w40k there are thousands of billions of titans in Emperor's service'' carries as much weight as any other opinion or argument.

Probably because the AdMech doesn't know how these parts work. They just know that the STC templates they have direct them to build the device in exactly this manner, and so they do, having absolutely no idea that the things they are putting under the hood are tactical computers, targeting-assistance arrays, fire-control systems and an Expert pseudo-AI that can control the vehicle's systems.

It is also possible that there's a switch on the dash that they don't know turns these systems on, so the crew is trained to never, ever, *ever* touch that switch... and, in this case? One guy dying bumped it with his elbow.


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... and how I come to this conclusion is not something that is stated outright anywhere, but is inferred from other, disparate sources regarding tangentially-related subjects in 40K.

We know, from the opening scrawl in just about every 40K publication, that the hope for technology and progress is gone, because "so much has been forgotten, never to be re-learned". We know, from a variety of sources, that the vast majority of Imperial citizens (including the vast bulk of the IG) are the living embodiments of "end users". They have not even grasped the simple step of "turning it off and back on again."

The Tech-Priests, themselves, are not *much* better in this regard. They understand how to fabricate parts, and how to put the parts together to assemble a plasma rifle, but they do not (by and large) understand *how* these parts work in unison to create the weapon's effects and ballistic profile. Mysticism and rote memorization has replaced actual knowledge and comprehension.

So, taking a pseudo-AI (like Siri, just very advanced) and introducing it to some very dim, tech-incompetent people, who practice technology like a religion, rather than as a science... yeah, you're going to get people believing that the machine actually has a spirit in it, one that requires veneration in order to maintain functionality.

Ernestas wrote:If authors have no weight behind their stories and only GW's version is correct one, then I think that discussing warhammer is pointless.

For better or worse, that is how the setting was set up by those in control. Although it should be pointed out that not even GW's material carries any more weight than novel interpretations or even fan-works, at least officially. Check out Gav Thorpe's blogpost I linked in the previous post where this is explained in detail, or take a look at famed BL author Aaron Dembski-Bowden discussing the issue here on dakka. GW does seem to keep a watchful eye on the style and atmosphere and some few key facts, however. It's just the details where authors of licensed material are granted artistic licence. Unfortunately the details do make up about 90% of the fluff ...

I'm actually the same as you in that I personally take GW's writings over those of "oursourced" material like BL novels or FFG's RPG - but I had to accept that this doesn't make it more true or correct, and that I cannot enforce my personal (GW-inspired) vision of the 41st millennium upon others who might favour some novel author's or FFG's idea of the setting. It took me quite a long time (and a long hunt through the internet to find quotes such as these) to get to this realisation, simply because the 40k fandom is so fixated on its wish for canonicity, and when I was young/naive/inexperienced, I just accepted it because .. well, it's what I've been told by all the other fans!

Debates about the fluff not making sense under this condition is something that I have remarked in the past, as well. In the end, I resorted to the stance that I'm just here to inform people that there are alternate interpretations, what they are exactly, and that they don't have to adopt it if they don't like it. Because a lot of fans are still being misled by the urban rumour I bemoaned above.

 Ernestas wrote:
I do not know story of Ryn's might, so I ask: Why did only one land raider activated himself? How did he decided that something went horribly wrong and it needs go to avenge its chapter? And also, if this programming is so effective then why bother with a crew? Just drink tea in the Emperor's name and let land raider to do all job.

Maybe Rynn's Might had developed a bondage with his crew (now dead)? Maybe he somehow sensed, psychically or by the elimination of their friendly tage, that they especially had been killed? Maybe it was the only Land Raider that's Machine Spirit could function?

I'll quote the Codex, which is as good as anything when it comes to fluff.

Codex: Space Marines, Page 81, Paragraph 4, Line 6

'Indeed, the Crimson Fists tell that the uncrewed Land Raider Rynn's Might, narrowly surviving the missile that levelled their Fortress Monastery, immediately thereafter fought a solo war against a rampaging Ork warband...'

While this isn't straight up proof, it is rather compelling. It is obviously one of the only, or one of the few, Crimson Fist's Land Raiders that survived the missile, therefore explaining why it was the only one. It also gives compelling evidence that it can at least process a large amount of information, as if it was a living being. Maybe it was revenge that motivated it; maybe simple identification of foes. It can be interpreted many ways.

Or, to provide yet another option, this legend (note the "tell" in the text) is just a misunderstanding, and whoever saw that Land Raider actually just mistook it for the uncrewed Rynn's Might when it was actually the crewed Thule's Valor. Or it was the right tank and for some reason was crewed without it later making it into the records ...

Not an interpretation that I personally follow (I prefer the quasi-AI), but there are many ways to explain things like these, and simple mistakes and hyperbole are amongst them. As Marc Gascogne once said, these books are "crammed full of rumours, distorted legends and half-truths".

 Lynata wrote:
Or, to provide yet another option, this legend (note the "tell" in the text) is just a misunderstanding, and whoever saw that Land Raider actually just mistook it for the uncrewed Rynn's Might when it was actually the crewed Thule's Valor. Or it was the right tank and for some reason was crewed without it later making it into the records ...

Not an interpretation that I personally follow (I prefer the quasi-AI), but there are many ways to explain things like these, and simple mistakes and hyperbole are amongst them. As Marc Gascogne once said, these books are "crammed full of rumours, distorted legends and half-truths".

This. The "Machine Spirit" concept isn't "just AI" or "just superstition" or just anything, it's a long amalgamation of legends, based on misunderstandings of what technology is and is capable of doing by people ignorant of the facts, filtered through an anthropomorphizing religion by which it has become dogma. Some Machine Spirits are advanced tactical AI, some are collections of predictive and reactive algorithms without sentient will, some only exist in the minds of the people using the item in question("Oh no, my Whatsit won't start up today, I must have angered it somehow!").

And as for there being nothing in the fluff to support that interpretation; read the Ciaphas Cane books chaps, you will find exactly that. Or does in-character fluff only count if it's super-serious?

Yep, exactly that. It's a mix of technological possibility mixed with the sci-fi-fantasy setting of 40K, which has space-ships driven by magic-engines, mixed with the superstitions of a population that celebrates its ignorance as an act of religious devotion....

... related through tales told by people light-years away from the events they're describing.

I do not buy that attitude towards mechanicus. In heresy era they were quite competent and even in w40k they are often are shown as competent too. Their stagnation and degradation comes from hoarding knowledge and protecting it to extremes. To them, knowledge is an indicator of your social status, your well-being, your wealth. In other words, knowledge to them is that to us would be money, influence, mojo and etcetera. It's no wonder that it's protected to such levels that they themselves do not know that they know.


So, how many things can you deem as legends, incidents or programming then talking about machine spirits? Doesn't machine spirits makes perfect sense? In an universe there gods can be born from a simple lifestyle, can't it be a same thing and with machine spirits? Humans are psychic race, their believes and emotions shapes and fuels the warp. Can't it be that humans by their believe and emotional energies are able to create real spirits in machinery? I think, no one will deny that demons can be created in the same way, so why it cannot be done and for machine spirits?



Btw: It will take me some time to read all that given information. While I dislike idea that I can't create true lore by combining all sources about it, I respect one's right to have its own version of warhammer. After all, I too claim Titans to be far bigger despite of that most of the sources say...

 Pilau Rice wrote:


I'm pretty sure that I read somewhere that spirits of machines had an imprint but I can't seem to find it anymore, I could have sworn I read it in the 6th Ed rule book but reading last night couldn't find it.

Hopefully this doesn't count as a necro, but I thought I would post the reference I was referring to here. It's not from the Rulebook, but from the Chaos 6th Ed Codex under Mutilators.

Even the smallest scalpel has a psychic reflection in the warp - a splinter of potential that becomes the stronger the more harm the weapon cuases. The eldest of weapons having claimed the hot blood of countless victims, have strong but simple war-spirits that thirst for battle. A true relic may even have a limited sentience or be possessed of a battle lust that surpasses that of its wielder - p43

So it's not quite about the machine spirit itself, but how things have a psychic imprint which can lead to sentience.

Never before this thread it had occurred to me that people could think that machine spirits are literal spirits instead of superstition and (possibly cybernetic) computers.

I always thought they used actual human brains in order to install the 'machine spirits'.

Reading this - I've no idea where I got that from

 PredaKhaine wrote:
I always thought they used actual human brains in order to install the 'machine spirits'.

Same here.
This topic was hot back in the eighties: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wetware_computer

Some Sci-fi books used wetware as AI equivalents, and I always assumed Machine Spirits are just that. They are alive, they can be possessed (and turn into demons), they have their own personality, they can rebel, and they look like brains. They can sleep, they react to adrenaline injected on them...

Also, this is from the last Space Marine codex (Ranged Weapons section):

The skyspear missile launcher fires pre-blessed savant warheads, each a relic in its own
right, housing the entombed remains of a distinguished chapterserf. This servitor’s
mummified brain augments the missile’s auto-targeters, allowing it to second-guess
enemy pilots or home in on the heretical emissions of their debased machine spirits.
Against the dogged pursuit of a savant warhead and its macabre pilot, there can be little
chance of escape, while the tank’s servo-loaders maintain a steady rate of fire.

I'm sure the mechanicus uses wetware for servitors and skitaari - I've just re-read the middle book in the dark apostle series (dark disciple?) and the corrupted tech priest is able to plant knowledge into another tech priests(albeit of a lower rank) head and retrieve it at a later date.
I just assumed that carried through - it would explain how machine spirits get corrupted

I'd not read about those missiles (I don't play vanilla marines) so thatnks for the quote -also thanks for the link - that was an interesting read