Very heavy spoilers follow from Vulkan lives
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Spoiler:
Ok so apparently Vulkan is a perpetual. A true Immortal. Simply cannot die. Yeah, It seems redundant that a primarch would be a perpetual
But now that were past that this means that Perpetuals are true immortals, and good ole Emps is a perpetual.
Does this mean that the gadgetry of the golden throne is actually preventing him from healing?
Not all Primarchs are true immortals in the sense they cannot be killed. Ferrus Mannus/Sanguinious/ possibly papa smurf and Horus are indications that primarchs can in fact "die".
What makes Vulcan unique amongst the Primarchs is that he is truly unkillable ie. complete dismemberment will not stop him from healing.
There is also fluff indicating that some Primarchs are not immortal. I believe there is a passage in the space wolves codex where Leman Russ indicates that his "Lifes breath is almost spent..." What that means is up for interpretation however I think that he was saying that he was really old and was going to die soon.
Well, all Primarchs have healing factors. In The Mirror Crack'd, Fulgrim demonstrated a fairly powerful one, but not nearly as advanced as healing from being turned to ash.
Void__Dragon wrote: Well, all Primarchs have healing factors. In The Mirror Crack'd, Fulgrim demonstrated a fairly powerful one, but not nearly as advanced as healing from being turned to ash.
Wolverine regenerated from being at the ground zero of a nuke from maybe a few cells if we're really pushing it.
One of the rumors that bounced around concerning the Emperor was that being stuck on the throne kept his spirit from going back into the warp, reforming as a human, and being reborn. Sure, there'd be 20ish years of hectic insanity as the new Emperor grew up, but things would instantly Grimlight when he came back.
This book seems to indicate that something similar may be happening, except his current body would be fine if they'd just unplug him for 2 minutes.
TLDR: Emperor is a windows computer. Turning if off then on again makes it all better.
DogofWar1 wrote: One of the rumors that bounced around concerning the Emperor was that being stuck on the throne kept his spirit from going back into the warp, reforming as a human, and being reborn. Sure, there'd be 20ish years of hectic insanity as the new Emperor grew up, but things would instantly Grimlight when he came back.
This book seems to indicate that something similar may be happening, except his current body would be fine if they'd just unplug him for 2 minutes.
TLDR: Emperor is a windows computer. Turning if off then on again makes it all better.
I like that theory. Though can the IoM afford the downtime the emperor is dead? All navigation would be completely down and we'd be in a hell of a mess.
I'd really like the emperor to come back, but at the same time I'd prefer that he didn't. What effects would he have on the current IoM? He'd probably be furious as hell to see what has become of it.
Is it only true of Vulkan in regards to him being a perpetual? It would seem odd that the Emperor only created one of his generals that way when he had the capability to create all like that, unless he was well aware that there would be nine traitors or because of the way in which he created Vulkan, to be more human than his brothers.
When the discussion about the Emperor becoming a god comes up I have often thought that it was the Golden Throne that was preventing him from doing so, keeping his physical body alive a stopping the spirit from being released. Perhaps the Golden Throne has been modified to keep the Emperor from leaving the mortal plain, beyond its original design? The Emperor did after all request to be put in it, unless it was only a means to keep the breach sealed and to sustain him in his near death state. I recall that there was a piece of fluff where some Inquisitors were discussing what would happen if the Emperor were to die and they said that they would prevent that or something to that extent.
Chuck Norris with the healing powers of Wolverine and a God-like armour? He should slaughter some Sororitas and bath in their blood to be really on the safe side
Lol, BL keeps getting worse. First the utterly stupid idea of perpetuals ( once upon a time you had to drown the galaxy in blood to become truly immortal...) now at least one of the already suetastic primarchs
and the carrion god himself can't be killed. Let's wait a few years and they turn blonde/ become realy realy strong when they are sufficiently angry...
Well snap. Needless to say, it's been a long ass while since I've read Fulgrim. Is Eldrad part of the Cabal then too?
All of you complaining about Vulkan being a perpetual need to read the book before you continue, honestly. There's a LOT of information in the new book regarding the perpetuals and it's all really well developed. Grammaticus is a really solid character and learning more about him and his motivations was really interesting.
Further, as I said before, Vulkan being a perpetual is pretty appropriate, as of all the Primachs, he's being painted as the one that really understands that he's there to protect the imperium of man, not lord over it. Additionally, the book leaves it pretty wide open that, again as I said before, while perpetuals can't be killed by conventional means, they can be killed.
Pilau Rice wrote: I don't think he is of the Cabal, I think if he were it would be him who met with Alpharius and not Slau Da, I think his name was.
So what are the perpetuals, or what else can be learnt about them?
Are all the Primarchs perpetuals or is there an explanation as to why it's only Vulkan?
Okay, so there really was a lot in this book. Oll Perrson and John Grammaticus are very different types of perpetuals, apparently. Grammaticus makes a comment about being the "harbinger of destruction" for all of mankind, which was pretty profound. While they didn't say it specifically, I got the impression that he and Perrson may be like the ying & yang of human perpetuals. Additionally, it doesn't appear that Grammaticus was ALWAYS a perpetual, but was rather made one (I think that's how I read it).
Vulkan is the only Primarch that is a perpetual, and the Emperor is one as well. Grammaticus has actually spoken to the Emperor, which I thought was REALLY interesting. Additionally, I think there must be some elemental tie in with the perpetuals, as they make a HUGE deal in this book about Vulkan being "of the earth." I think Vulkan is the only Primarch that is a perpetual because he's the only Primarch that really has a personal interest in the preservation of humanity. I could be reading into that too far, but that's my understanding. One of Curze's primary forms of torture in the novel relies heavily on this sense of compassion.
In Legion we do have that brief encounter between Grammaticus and the Emperor but as far as I can remember, it was only once and very brief, a mere handshake and a few words.
I think we also get something along those lines in the meeting between Ol and Grammaticus in Fear to Tread, where he mentions that he isn't like Ol.
I think the Harbinger of Destruction would relate to his relationship with the Cabal and their plan against the Primordial Annihilator.
Is Mr Kyne setting up a possible way, if ever allowed to, get a Primarch back into a 40k setting?
The Emperor requested to be put on the Golden Throne, he wouldn't stop his own healing by being placed on there.... Unless, Duh Duh Duhhhhhhh, he didn't actually want to be put on the throne, it was all a ploy to prevent his healing as someone else wanted all the ruling powers.
I love a bit of baseless speculation at times. I wonder if I'll read this idea in a year or so on 40k wiki stated as actual fluff?
Great, more perpetuals? They already sucked everything interesting out of Ollanius Pius with that gak to make him another best bud with Emps, instead of the sacrifice of the unknown for a higher purpose.
i don't have a problem with Perpetuals, and have enjoyed the way they've been written...
i like that none of them seem very happy about their immortality, and pretty much just seem to want a rest...
in Vulkan's case, it makes an interesting foil to Curze's sadism...
the bits about Istvaan V, from the Salamanders' side, are what make the book great, for me...
the Dropsite Massacre is such an iconic moment, as the Primarchs true loyalties are revealed, and the depths of the Heresy understood for the first time...
i can't get enough of it...
the only thing i'm looking forward to more is the Siege of Terra...
anyway, i like the way the series is progressing, and have enjoyed EVERY book so far...
i don't understand why so many people get their panties in a bunch over the fluff...
it's only make believe...
i'm just happy that writers get to create these fantasies for us...
As others have pointed out, its eluded to that Grammaticus' next encounter with Vulkan will be to kill him so that he doesn't end up as "guardian of the gate," or something vague like that. His goal in the book is to capture a super powerful relic of the emperor, which he does. Presumably that has the power to end Vulkan.
Parallel to Grammaticus, we have the story of Vulkan and Kurze. The author seems to be building them up as opposites, yet with Kurze testing/taunting Vulkan that he is every bit the killer and monster that Kurze is. Vulkan passes each test of his values, but starts to slip towards the end, only being saved seemingly by the emperor. Without this intervention, Vulkan likely would have killed Kurze, thus validating him (martyrdom seems to be Kurze's primarch trait ).
The impression I got was that Vulkan is built up as the most human of the primarchs. Much of his story focuses on his attachment to his sons and his need to protect humanity. As others have mentioned, it's possible that this is his "grounding to the earth," which makes him a perpetual. It seems awfully convenient that Kurze spends the whole story failing to make him a monster, simultaneously killing him again and again, and that we're told Grammaticus is seeking to sever his connection "to the earth."
As to being a perpetual making Vulkan a Mary Sue, I think that's entirely missing the point. Towards the end of the book, Vulkan comments to Kurze that he's always been the physically strongest of the primarchs and that he has always held back in sparring. He's also a total push over when it comes to protecting people. While he may be unkillable, the story line we're enjoying isn't "who is the toughest," it's an epic. Maybe if Vulkan was in the role of Russ as the executioner would his immortality seem excessive, but as the guy who just wants to return home and start a farm, it is fitting.
Laslty, with people complaining about perpetuals... We don't yet know how the series will end. Things have been mixed up and changed but there are still a ton of books to be written / read. I think people should just focus on trying to enjoy what we're being given instead of whining.
... or perhaps GW should leave well enough alone and stop changing traits to characters they've established over the past 20 years?
If a character is immortal, and that character is some kind of warrior-figure (which, let's face it, all Primarchs are), then that character loses all dramatic tension. You know that the character is never going to die on the page in any way that is permanent. Or even suffer an injury that is more than a temporary, minor inconvenience.
That Vulkan is strongly supportive of humanity makes sense, as this has been reflected in Salamanders fluff since the beginning. He doesn't need to be immortal to be this way.
And, actually, since this is a telling of the Horus Heresy, we *do* know exactly how the story will end. Of the very few things that are considered "canon" to the setting by GW, the events of the Heresy are one of them.
Perhaps this is their segue into advancing the storyline? Wishful thinking I know, but I badly want to see the Big E go somewhere - either die and get it over with, or disconnect from the throne and heal up and begin a new era of absolutely epic warfare.
It's a setting, not a story. Nothing ever really changes in the 40K setting. Names might change, a fictional planet might get blown up, another fictional planet gets discovered. New Hive and Forge Worlds are introduced, and so on and so forth.
Nothing actually *happens* in the over-arching story of 40K. The names might change (Chapter Master So-and-so of the Ultrablue Marines Marines Chapter dies, and is succeeded by Chapter Master Whats-His-Face, who happens to have an identical statline...) but everything else stays exactly the same.
Psienesis wrote: ... or perhaps GW should leave well enough alone and stop changing traits to characters they've established over the past 20 years?
It's not as if Vulkan had much a character at all to begin with. He was practically a blank slate. People barely even knew whether he survived the dropsite massacre. The character changes are more of a filling out the blanks rather than retconning established background information about him. Like the Khan and Ferrus Manus, Vulkan can do with a little time in the spotlight.
Sounds like they're trying to take some of the grim darkness out of the setting.
For one, Vulkan is probably still alive in the "present" in any case. No surprise if he can simply regenerate every time he takes a mortal wound.
Second, if the Emperor is a Perpetual, then if the Golden Throne fails, the Astronomican will presumably go out while the Emperor is rebooting, which would cause havoc and fragment the Imperium. But after that, if he acted decisively enough, he could effectively begin a second Great Crusade if he acted quickly. Of course everything could go completely wrong in the meantime...
Enron wrote: Not all Primarchs are true immortals in the sense they cannot be killed. Ferrus Mannus/Sanguinious/ possibly papa smurf and Horus are indications that primarchs can in fact "die".
What makes Vulcan unique amongst the Primarchs is that he is truly unkillable ie. complete dismemberment will not stop him from healing.
There is also fluff indicating that some Primarchs are not immortal. I believe there is a passage in the space wolves codex where Leman Russ indicates that his "Lifes breath is almost spent..." What that means is up for interpretation however I think that he was saying that he was really old and was going to die soon.
Well, according to at least one of the Space Marine codexs, Papa Smurf is possibly healing in stasis, from a mortal wound. So read into that what you will.
The Sensei and the Illuminati were of a different breed. Background actors and antagonists (not exactly villains) more often than they were protagonists. The =I= spent a lot of time, in those days, chasing them down for their own purposes.
Psienesis wrote: ... or perhaps GW should leave well enough alone and stop changing traits to characters they've established over the past 20 years?
.
I think "established over the past 20 years" is pretty....generous. Before the Black Library Horus Heresy books, there was, for all intents and purposes, a simple "outline" for the heresy. These characters were hardly defined. Hell, Lorgar's character has evolved a ton from First Heretic to where we are now, and seeing that character growth is awesome.
Concerning Guilliman in statis - Angel Exterminatus showed us that people can heal in status, if not very slowly.
Concerning Perpetuals - Vulkan Lives makes it pretty clear that Grammaticus has a means to kill Vulkan. Maybe only perpetuals can kill other perpetuals?
I actually love all the stories that are coming out now with the Iron Hands, Sallies, and Ravens working together in these small splinter cells. I think we've learned more about those three chapters in how they interact THAT way than in anything else.
Ladies and gents need to keep up with these books.
Gramticus is in Mark of calth, all I'm gonna say about that
Deamons can kill perpetuals, oll is terrified of.this happening, anything that destroys a soul can also kill them, a bullet can also kill them, but from that sort of thing they are reborn.
Vulkan is unique in that he does not get reborn, he comes back as is.
Formosa wrote: Ladies and gents need to keep up with these books.
Gramticus is in Mark of calth, all I'm gonna say about that
Deamons can kill perpetuals, oll is terrified of.this happening, anything that destroys a soul can also kill them, a bullet can also kill them, but from that sort of thing they are reborn.
Vulkan is unique in that he does not get reborn, he comes back as is.
Oh thats right! I totally forgot about that!
Good call.
There's also time travelling. So yeah. Where's JJ Abrams...
You should see the primarchs as 1/20th of the emperor.. They all have some personal traits and skills the emperor does... Like Aggron is super uber duper strong, Fulgrim is uber fast, Lorgar a masterfull speaker, the Lion a master tactician, Magnus a master Psyker..... So why shouldnt Vulkan inherrit this? It is a bit on the far overpowered side yes... but still...
Also,... dont get the illusion that the writer gets a 100% say in how the story has to go... I could almost guarantee that GW gives a big red line which they HAVE to follow. And also the book will be rated and checked for every inch of paper.. No way that GW lets the writers decide how their universe will unfold...
Also,... dont get the illusion that the writer gets a 100% say in how the story has to go... I could almost guarantee that GW gives a big red line which they HAVE to follow. And also the book will be rated and checked for every inch of paper.. No way that GW lets the writers decide how their universe will unfold...
Black Library specifically has no such controls placed on it. While the HH series has more studio control than any other series they've produced... GW is fairly hands-off when it comes to BL titles.
They possess the technology to make people perpetuals. I know that.
A large portion of their human members are probably perpetuals, but not all perpetuals are part of the cabal.
The Cabal is primarily Eldar if I recall.
Psienesis wrote: ... or perhaps GW should leave well enough alone and stop changing traits to characters they've established over the past 20 years?
.
I think "established over the past 20 years" is pretty....generous. Before the Black Library Horus Heresy books, there was, for all intents and purposes, a simple "outline" for the heresy. These characters were hardly defined. Hell, Lorgar's character has evolved a ton from First Heretic to where we are now, and seeing that character growth is awesome.
Concerning Guilliman in statis - Angel Exterminatus showed us that people can heal in status, if not very slowly.
Concerning Perpetuals - Vulkan Lives makes it pretty clear that Grammaticus has a means to kill Vulkan. Maybe only perpetuals can kill other perpetuals?
I actually love all the stories that are coming out now with the Iron Hands, Sallies, and Ravens working together in these small splinter cells. I think we've learned more about those three chapters in how they interact THAT way than in anything else.
My point on Guilliman wasn't just that he's healing in stasis, but the fact his wound was sufficient to kill a Primarch yet he's 'getting better'. As in, having Vulkan do whatever regeneration he does (haven't read the book), isn't completely out of left field.
GW likes their dangling threads in this regards because it lets people have 'more fun' with the universe.
Want your own legion? Check, we've left two blank for you
Want your primarch to come back? Check, left that open for you with several of them
The universe will end if the Emporer is unplugged? Yup, have that for you
The universe is saved if the Emporer is unplugged? Yup, have that for you
It is a soap opera, and people come back from the dead all the time in soap operas (no matter how ludicrous it sounds).
Guilliman is not, categorically, "getting better". People, in-universe, believe that he is getting better. There's a difference here, because the belief that he's getting better underpins the faith the Imperial citizenry have in the divinity of the God-Emperor and His chosen sons, not an observed, definite event that indicates that he *is* healing.
GW wrote it this way, on purpose, so that they (or anyone, really) could have it go either way. Maybe Rowboat will get off that chair someday. Maybe he won't. This sort of open-ended situation is how most 40K events and themes are written, so that the studio and players can take things as they like them, and then go on with their own stories about them.
This has begun to change in recent publications, though, with characters previously listed as "MIA" or "fate unknown" being established as categorically dead (or not).
I think "established over the past 20 years" is pretty....generous. Before the Black Library Horus Heresy books, there was, for all intents and purposes, a simple "outline" for the heresy. These characters were hardly defined. Hell, Lorgar's character has evolved a ton from First Heretic to where we are now, and seeing that character growth is awesome.
You said it before I could. They are currently fleshing out and evolving what we already knew about the heresy. Things will change from what we already knew. Based on BL's track record with the series, I am ok with that.
Psienesis wrote: Guilliman is not, categorically, "getting better". People, in-universe, believe that he is getting better. There's a difference here, because the belief that he's getting better underpins the faith the Imperial citizenry have in the divinity of the God-Emperor and His chosen sons, not an observed, definite event that indicates that he *is* healing.
GW wrote it this way, on purpose, so that they (or anyone, really) could have it go either way. Maybe Rowboat will get off that chair someday. Maybe he won't. This sort of open-ended situation is how most 40K events and themes are written, so that the studio and players can take things as they like them, and then go on with their own stories about them.
This has begun to change in recent publications, though, with characters previously listed as "MIA" or "fate unknown" being established as categorically dead (or not).
That was my point. He could be getting better, which would make Vulcan not out of left field, or he could be going no where, hence my unplugged good/bad.
As I noted, ambiguous so that it reads like a soap opera to try and keep folks interested.
I haven't had the chance to read it (I must ask whether anybody thought it was a good read? Well at least as far as Black Library goes. I'm ambivelent on getting it. For some odd reason my favourite chapter has always been the Salamanders, I blame Flamers and Meltaguns).
From an assumption, the book probably makes him more complex simply because there is very little fluff about Salamanders and even less about Vulkan. They've always been one of the more often ignored chapters/primarchs. Anyways I think the other point was simply that most guys have an iconic thing that makes them unique. Horus the ambition, Magnus the psyker powers. Something from their father. If this is the same as the emperor then it could be the way he has gained a bit from him (you could argue the love of humanity but the Emperor is shrouded and hard to understand as though he is tired of humanity).
Does he have character depth that makes him distinct, or just some stupid external thing (like being a perpetual)?
I haven't read the book, so I can not comment on how his character is developed, but making him a perpetual was done solely to differentiate from his brothers, IMO.
Does he have character depth that makes him distinct, or just some stupid external thing (like being a perpetual)?
IMO, very much so, and it's pretty far in line with what we always thought about the Salamanders: he's compassionate, loyal, humble.
I mean, while both he and Ferrus are craftsmen, he's pretty much the polar opposite personality-wise.
And honestly, I don't think the perpetual thing would work on any Primarch BUT him.
There's a lot of truth to this. Like others have pointed out, he's regarded as both the most human and most compassionate by a large margin. He's the shield that protects humanity, not the spear. It makes sense that he's essentially a tank...and a nigh unkillable one at that. He's the type of guy that when he job was over, he'd go back to working in a humble forge on Nocturne.
A lot of the primarchs major defining features were double edged swords. On one hand, Vulkan can't die. On the other hand, Vulkan can't die. His service will never end and it's his cross to bear.
Waaghboss Grobnub wrote: You should see the primarchs as 1/20th of the emperor.. They all have some personal traits and skills the emperor does... Like Aggron is super uber duper strong, Fulgrim is uber fast, Lorgar a masterfull speaker, the Lion a master tactician, Magnus a master Psyker..... So why shouldnt Vulkan inherrit this? It is a bit on the far overpowered side yes... but still...
Vulkan Lives (finished it yesterday) was pretty great.
Leaves open the notion that, while perpetuate cant be killed by conventional means, they can in fact be killed.
I think it also introduces Eldrad. But I can't be sure.
Enron wrote:Not all Primarchs are true immortals in the sense they cannot be killed. Ferrus Mannus/Sanguinious/ possibly papa smurf and Horus are indications that primarchs can in fact "die".
What makes Vulcan unique amongst the Primarchs is that he is truly unkillable ie. complete dismemberment will not stop him from healing.
There is also fluff indicating that some Primarchs are not immortal. I believe there is a passage in the space wolves codex where Leman Russ indicates that his "Lifes breath is almost spent..." What that means is up for interpretation however I think that he was saying that he was really old and was going to die soon.
I'd really like the emperor to come back, but at the same time I'd prefer that he didn't. What effects would he have on the current IoM? He'd probably be furious as hell to see what has become of it.
It probably suits a lot of those high up in the Imperium that he doesn't return. They've got a gravy train to keep running.
He is fighting the deamons on terra coming out of the ruptured webway, "gatekeeper" gee... I wonder what that will be lol, since he can't die, he makes the ultimate anti deamon primarch...
When i first read that gate keeper bit. I was thinking more of Sangy at the Eternity gate. Erebus has got it in for him. Whoever johns after has been there for awhile and he needs another primarchs help. But then i did read it in a sitting
What was Erebus doing? Why did he need to turn up and confuse me?
I think its a counter to the Legion BL book, my explanation/view:
Spoiler:
Erebus shows up because he exactly knows who John is and what his mission is. He arrives to make absolutly sure John makes it off the planet. Meaning that the Chaos Gods probably know of the Cabal and their plans. So if Erebus keeps pushing Johhn onwards (seemingly the will of the Dark Gods) they must know about killing the Emperor. Now we have to start wondering if Chaos also knows the prophecy they gave the AL. It seems that they do to a certain extent, how else would Erebus know John, if not by being informed by either the AL or the Dark Gods. They know the Emperor will be the death of them, but the Cabal thinks a Chaos victory will also result in the same event. The Chaos Gods seem to think very differently. The main point for that is, if they know that the Chaos victory would kill them, but losing (like in the prophecy) will bring Chaos in 10-20K years, why not play the waiting game. So the Cabal is probably wrong in that a Chaos victory will be the end of the Chaos Gods in the end.
Perpetuals are the worst gak to come out of Black Library, with the exception of C.S. Goto.
The reason the Alpha Legion turned is worse cak than anything Goto penned.
Every single Dark Angel left on caliban turning against their primarch for some reason would be another.
Everything in the Imperium is worse than it was before, knowledge is constantly lost, but somehow the huge ships that transport everything around the Imperium are immune from this degradation in technology - small floating servo skulls are possible, floating land speeders are possible, but floating bikes are hard.
I'd really like the emperor to come back, but at the same time I'd prefer that he didn't. What effects would he have on the current IoM? He'd probably be furious as hell to see what has become of it.
It probably suits a lot of those high up in the Imperium that he doesn't return. They've got a gravy train to keep running.
You see, this is the kind of fluff I can believe.
More likely the Emperor doesn't heal because all his energy goes into keeping the gate closed, but maybe someone on the council forgot to tell him that the last time a warp presence was measured on the other side of the gate was 5000 years ago.
Harriticus wrote: So can someone cite the chapter this info is in? Should get added to lexicanum but I don't feel like reading the whole book myself
In the spoilers the two relevant parts quoted
Spoiler:
Page 400-401, the ''he'' is John and Elias is Erebus's rogue disciple told not to harm John untill he arrives:
'''I didn't say you had a choice, mortal.' Elias wagged the pistol's muzzle, gesturing for Grammaticus to step down from the ramp and out of the gunship's waiting hold.
He hestitated, 'I'll be shredded out there.'
Elias briefly looked at the athame dagger sheathed at his belt. 'You won't be out here long enough for that. The shredding comes later though.'''
Page 402-403, just after Erebus arrived, the fulgurite is a part of the Emperor's power, the one John needs to kill a perpetual, which Elias doesnt know:
'''Rise,' he said to Elias, though he was looking at Grammaticus. His voice sounded old, but bitter and filled with the resonance of true power.
'You have arrived at an auspicious moment-' Elias began, before Erebus lashed out with the fulgurite and slit the other Dark Apostle's throat.''
Skipping a few lines of description of Erebus and Elias dying forward, he adresses him by his first name Valdrekk:
'''You are as stupid as you are short-sighted, Valdrekk.' He showed him the fulgurite, still glowing slightly, clenched in Erebus's bionic hand. 'This does not win wars, mere chunks of wood and metal cannot do that. It was never the weapon you were looking for. The primarchs, the god-born, are the weapons. Sharpen our own, blunt our enemy's.'
Erebus leaned down and clamped his flesh hand over Elias's gasping mouth. The struggle was brief and uneventful.
'He goes to the Neverborn as a reward for trying to betray me.'
It took Grammaticus a couple of seconds to realise that Erebus was talking to him. He looked down and saw the fulgurite brandished towards him.
'Take it,' Erebus said. 'No one will stop you.' Now he looked up and there was terrible knowledge in his eyes. 'Go to your task, John Grammaticus.'
Warily, Grammaticus took the spear. He then walked back up the ramp and pressed the icon to close it. When he looked back, both Erebus and Elias were gone.''
Ending it one page 405, after John being reached psychicly by an Eldar:
'''And then,' he asked instead, 'when the fulgurite is deliverd?'
A sudden star flare forced Grammaticus to dim the glacis, effectively ending the flect, but he answered anyway.
'Then, Vulkan dies.'''
This could possibly mean so many things for the relation between the Cabal, their prophecy and the supposed fate of the Chaos Gods. It also shows that there is a way to kill perpetuals.
On the part of Vulkan being a perpetual, its all over the book, but this qoute should be the best for it:
Spoiler:
Page 219, Vulkan is the one that speaks at the start of the qoute:
'''Then what is the purpose of all this madness and death? If you want to kill me, just do it. Get it over with. Why won't you just.'
Shadow-fast, Curze snapped the fork off one of the dead human's wrists and rammed it deep into my chest.
I felt it pierce the breastbone, the dirty metal driven into my heart to impale it. Crouching over me, Curze proceeded to drag the blunt implement up through my ribcage, tearing trough the chest and neck as I jetted blood across his breastplate in arterial black.
'I tried,' he told me, snarling through his anger as the fork reached my chin and blackness began to intrude at the edge of my vision. 'I cut off your head, pierced your heart, crushed your skull, impaled every major organ in your body. I even burned and dismembered you. You came back, brother. Every. Single. Time. You cannot die.'
Aghast, mind reeling with my brother's confession, I died.''
On page 265 it continues in the present with Vulkan's story: ''I returned from the darkness again, only now I possessed the knowledge of how and why. To most men, learning that you are immortal....''
At most, he'll probably just get a resurrection rule like St Celestine got. Cause even if he can't be killed, he can clearly be knocked unconscious and/or need time to regenerate.
Interestingly enough Celestine's first case of actual resurrection was to help Salamanders as well, if I recall correctly.
Psienesis wrote: ... or perhaps GW should leave well enough alone and stop changing traits to characters they've established over the past 20 years?
If a character is immortal, and that character is some kind of warrior-figure (which, let's face it, all Primarchs are), then that character loses all dramatic tension. You know that the character is never going to die on the page in any way that is permanent. Or even suffer an injury that is more than a temporary, minor inconvenience.
That Vulkan is strongly supportive of humanity makes sense, as this has been reflected in Salamanders fluff since the beginning. He doesn't need to be immortal to be this way.
And, actually, since this is a telling of the Horus Heresy, we *do* know exactly how the story will end. Of the very few things that are considered "canon" to the setting by GW, the events of the Heresy are one of them.
Harriticus wrote: So can someone cite the chapter this info is in? Should get added to lexicanum but I don't feel like reading the whole book myself
In the spoilers the two relevant parts quoted
Spoiler:
Page 400-401, the ''he'' is John and Elias is Erebus's rogue disciple told not to harm John untill he arrives:
'''I didn't say you had a choice, mortal.' Elias wagged the pistol's muzzle, gesturing for Grammaticus to step down from the ramp and out of the gunship's waiting hold.
He hestitated, 'I'll be shredded out there.'
Elias briefly looked at the athame dagger sheathed at his belt. 'You won't be out here long enough for that. The shredding comes later though.'''
Page 402-403, just after Erebus arrived, the fulgurite is a part of the Emperor's power, the one John needs to kill a perpetual, which Elias doesnt know:
'''Rise,' he said to Elias, though he was looking at Grammaticus. His voice sounded old, but bitter and filled with the resonance of true power.
'You have arrived at an auspicious moment-' Elias began, before Erebus lashed out with the fulgurite and slit the other Dark Apostle's throat.''
Skipping a few lines of description of Erebus and Elias dying forward, he adresses him by his first name Valdrekk:
'''You are as stupid as you are short-sighted, Valdrekk.' He showed him the fulgurite, still glowing slightly, clenched in Erebus's bionic hand. 'This does not win wars, mere chunks of wood and metal cannot do that. It was never the weapon you were looking for. The primarchs, the god-born, are the weapons. Sharpen our own, blunt our enemy's.'
Erebus leaned down and clamped his flesh hand over Elias's gasping mouth. The struggle was brief and uneventful.
'He goes to the Neverborn as a reward for trying to betray me.'
It took Grammaticus a couple of seconds to realise that Erebus was talking to him. He looked down and saw the fulgurite brandished towards him.
'Take it,' Erebus said. 'No one will stop you.' Now he looked up and there was terrible knowledge in his eyes. 'Go to your task, John Grammaticus.'
Warily, Grammaticus took the spear. He then walked back up the ramp and pressed the icon to close it. When he looked back, both Erebus and Elias were gone.''
Ending it one page 405, after John being reached psychicly by an Eldar:
'''And then,' he asked instead, 'when the fulgurite is deliverd?'
A sudden star flare forced Grammaticus to dim the glacis, effectively ending the flect, but he answered anyway.
'Then, Vulkan dies.'''
This could possibly mean so many things for the relation between the Cabal, their prophecy and the supposed fate of the Chaos Gods. It also shows that there is a way to kill perpetuals.
On the part of Vulkan being a perpetual, its all over the book, but this qoute should be the best for it:
Spoiler:
Page 219, Vulkan is the one that speaks at the start of the qoute:
'''Then what is the purpose of all this madness and death? If you want to kill me, just do it. Get it over with. Why won't you just.'
Shadow-fast, Curze snapped the fork off one of the dead human's wrists and rammed it deep into my chest.
I felt it pierce the breastbone, the dirty metal driven into my heart to impale it. Crouching over me, Curze proceeded to drag the blunt implement up through my ribcage, tearing trough the chest and neck as I jetted blood across his breastplate in arterial black.
'I tried,' he told me, snarling through his anger as the fork reached my chin and blackness began to intrude at the edge of my vision. 'I cut off your head, pierced your heart, crushed your skull, impaled every major organ in your body. I even burned and dismembered you. You came back, brother. Every. Single. Time. You cannot die.'
Aghast, mind reeling with my brother's confession, I died.''
On page 265 it continues in the present with Vulkan's story: ''I returned from the darkness again, only now I possessed the knowledge of how and why. To most men, learning that you are immortal....''
Thanks a lot, but what's the fulgurite? Some kind of relic?
Harriticus wrote: Thanks a lot, but what's the fulgurite? Some kind of relic?
Yeah you could call it that:
Spoiler:
Its a piece of the Emperor's weapon, not mentioned which weapon of his though. But its infused with a whole lot of the Emperor's psychic power. Enough to turn back the spell the Dark Apostle Elias tried to cast on it to achieve deamonhood. Instead of it channeling its power the fulgurite not only blocked the attempt, it killed most people in the room and fused the bones in one of Elias's arms (which now is a burned lump of flesh). Seems the raw power still stored in it is enough to end the perpetual's immortal soul/body.
So does this now mean that as The Emperor is also a perpetual that its only the strain of holding the webway closed/astronomican that's preveting him from recovering completely?
Mellow wrote: So does this now mean that as The Emperor is also a perpetual that its only the strain of holding the webway closed/astronomican that's preveting him from recovering completely?
In the ultimate catch-22 so it seems. If he was allowed to die he would be reborn but demons would swarm the palace from the broken webway and the astrominicon would cease causing the imperium to stop.
CalgarsPimpHand wrote: So let me get this straight: Vulkan has crazy regenerative powers, even going so far as to regrow lost limbs? Sort of like, I dunno... a salamander?
Well this worries me but not entirely unpredicated, these novel things tend to be as bad as films at making implausible over exaggerations in an attempt to thrill they should realise that models that are already tanks are pretty OTT already making them immortal is just taking it to another level.
They shouldn't be immortal but i'd let them wolverine style recover that would be OK to me.
The problem is that with this revelation of Vulkan being what he is, it would make sense that the Salamanders are looking to collect his artifacts. Out of all of the remaining living loyalist primarchs (i.e. ones that are not confirmed dead), Vulkan is the only one whose whereabouts are unknown and whose last known sighting wasn't going into the Eye of Terror or the Webway.
It's not too over the top, I'm sure he can be killed, he just can't die of natural causes, and according to the 40k wikia, Vulkan was present at the second founding, so we know he lives through this encounter.
I wouldn't place too much faith in the Wikia entry though. Now I know there is a long standing rivalry between Wikia and Lexicanum (And, funnily enough, as I've recently re-vamped a great deal of the Salamanders articles of Lex with fluff from the Tome of Fire Trilogy, I'm bound to take that side), at least Lex includes all the citations for it's info.
I quote the passage Alfndrate is referring to directly from the Wikia here:
There is little known about how Vulkan of the Salamanders disappeared. He vanished into thin air around a thousand years after the Horus Heresy. Some claim that he died on Istvaan V, however he was later present at the Imperial Palace when Guilliman divided the Space Marine Legions into Chapters during the Second Founding. The Salamanders Chapter believes that after one of their number finds all nine relics that Vulkan left scattered around the galaxy for them to find, Vulkan will return to lead the Salamanders to victory against the Traitor Legions of Chaos and gain vengeance for the terrible slaughter suffered by the Chapter at Istvaan V.
However, there is no citations, and no links for the referencing for the information, hence it stands to reason that it cannot really be trusted. Of course, should somebody inform me, with citations, that this definitely the case, I'll cheerfully retract my above statement.
IMHO, the quote seems to be pure speculation of a fan at best. As the Salamanders have no confirmed successor chapters, and certainly no 2nd Founding successors, why then would their Primarch turn up at the splitting of other Legions? Surely, that has to be quite a personal and solemn moment for each legion, one which I can't imagine they would want another, not of their legion, intruding in. Similarly, how can we be sure the 2nd Founding happened in one fell swoop? It may have occured over several years or decades, as the Legions rebuilt their strength up to a point whereby a clean split is possible. Again, I can't imagine Vulkan hanging around for a couple of years just to witness that, especially when he would be more concerned with building up his own decimated Chapters strength.
I guess the wikia got it from the Black Templars IA
Dorn would not relent, and neither would Guilliman, Leman Russ of the Space Wolves and Vulkan of the Salamanders agreed with Dorn for they too did not want their Legions scattered to the corners of the galaxy, but Ferrus Mannus, Primarch of the Iron Hands and Corax of the Raven Guard backed the Ultramarines.
and from the IA: Salamanders
This organisation is still true today, although ever since the disappearance of Vulkan some thousand years after the Legion's Founding, the Captain of the First Company has been given the role of Chapter Master/quote]
Oh, I'm not disputing that aspect of the statement - I know that there was some dissension around splitting the Chapters - I think there was an incident where an IF ship was attacked by an Imperial Fleet ship, but Dorn relented to avoid another civil war. No, the part I was disputing was that Vulkan was actually there in person.
Just as a note, the first quote is kinda fethed up on two points:
A) Why would Guilliman not agree with splitting up the chapters - it was his idea!
B) Why would Ferrus Mannus back the Ultramarines - at this point in time I don't think he would be thinking straight. Probably because he was headless and very, very much dead...
He decided he was fed up with how the universe was going. So he dismembered himself and left the parts around the galaxy in "9 relics". So that when his sons find all of them and bring them together he will be reborn.
He must have figured that one of two things would happen. Either humanity would be wiped out and therefore he would sleep forever. OR that after doing a Rip van Winkle humanity would still be around and need his compassion to rebuild.
I was going to skip this book (I've skipped the past several HH books); but I may go ahead and get it this week. Sounds good.
Warpig1815 wrote: Oh, I'm not disputing that aspect of the statement - I know that there was some dissension around splitting the Chapters - I think there was an incident where an IF ship was attacked by an Imperial Fleet ship, but Dorn relented to avoid another civil war. No, the part I was disputing was that Vulkan was actually there in person.
Just as a note, the first quote is kinda fethed up on two points:
A) Why would Guilliman not agree with splitting up the chapters - it was his idea!
B) Why would Ferrus Mannus back the Ultramarines - at this point in time I don't think he would be thinking straight. Probably because he was headless and very, very much dead...
Guilliman was not against it, Russ and Vulkan was.
@clively - You sir.... are not as stupid as the rest of us.
To be honest, that doesn't seem like a bad idea. Assuming his body only regenerates should it's components be in close proximity, then it would certainly work.However, there's only one problem - some of the artifacts were already in the Salamanders possession before Vulkan left, such as his spear and gauntlet, and they wouldn't contain a body part. Similarly, Kesares mantle wouldn't contain his DNA as it's a Firedrake's skin.
That said, brownie points for trying.
EDIT@ Mag-El - I know, but look at Pilau Rice's quotes from IA on the last page.
Enron wrote: Not all Primarchs are true immortals in the sense they cannot be killed. Ferrus Mannus/Sanguinious/ possibly papa smurf and Horus are indications that primarchs can in fact "die".
What makes Vulcan unique amongst the Primarchs is that he is truly unkillable ie. complete dismemberment will not stop him from healing.
There is also fluff indicating that some Primarchs are not immortal. I believe there is a passage in the space wolves codex where Leman Russ indicates that his "Lifes breath is almost spent..." What that means is up for interpretation however I think that he was saying that he was really old and was going to die soon.
Its worth pointing out that Horus had his soul completely destroyed by the Emp when the Emp finally had enough of him, that's be similar to the other known ways to kill a perpetual, so it is possible that Horus could have been a perpetual.
It'd be worth looking at how the other Primarchs died, Manus was killed by the demon possessing Fulgrim at the last minute, so its possible that the demon got his hands on Manus's soul. What about the other confirmed deaths of the loyalist Primarchs?
Enron wrote: Not all Primarchs are true immortals in the sense they cannot be killed. Ferrus Mannus/Sanguinious/ possibly papa smurf and Horus are indications that primarchs can in fact "die".
What makes Vulcan unique amongst the Primarchs is that he is truly unkillable ie. complete dismemberment will not stop him from healing.
There is also fluff indicating that some Primarchs are not immortal. I believe there is a passage in the space wolves codex where Leman Russ indicates that his "Lifes breath is almost spent..." What that means is up for interpretation however I think that he was saying that he was really old and was going to die soon.
Its worth pointing out that Horus had his soul completely destroyed by the Emp when the Emp finally had enough of him, that's be similar to the other known ways to kill a perpetual, so it is possible that Horus could have been a perpetual.
It'd be worth looking at how the other Primarchs died, Manus was killed by the demon possessing Fulgrim at the last minute, so its possible that the demon got his hands on Manus's soul. What about the other confirmed deaths of the loyalist Primarchs?
Why does it have to be loyalist Primarchs? Curze was killed on his knees by Space Elf.
Konrad Curze was killed by a Callidus Assassin - M'shen. Looking on Lexicanum, whilst it doesn't say M'Shen is a human, I doubt she would be an Eldar considering the highly Xenophobic nature of the IoM.
I've never read it, (Lexicanum gives me the general gist of it) but I wouldn't put it past the Eldar to sow misdirection just as a boast while he kills Talos. However, seeing as Talos has spent his life hunting down M'Shen, it's proabably safe to say it was M'Shen who killed Curze.
Looky Likey wrote: Its worth pointing out that Horus had his soul completely destroyed by the Emp when the Emp finally had enough of him, that's be similar to the other known ways to kill a perpetual, so it is possible that Horus could have been a perpetual.
It'd be worth looking at how the other Primarchs died, Manus was killed by the demon possessing Fulgrim at the last minute, so its possible that the demon got his hands on Manus's soul. What about the other confirmed deaths of the loyalist Primarchs?
The Horus thing was about leaving the Chaos Gods nothing of Horus to start over with. As souls seem to go to the warp as they die they might pick Horus out. As Vulkan Lives makes it sound its only some powerfull psyker relic from the Emperor that could truly kill Vulkan. Almost nothing is on the power scale of the Emperor, so that rules out a lot of ways for Vulkan to die.
Vulkan seems to be the only exceptional Primarch in the department of abilities around death/resurrection. While he survives almost everything (seemingly he still does) the others got killed in ways ranging from killed by the vessel fof the power of the Chaos Gods (Horus-Sanguinius) or getting killed boarding a CSM ship (Dorn). But apart from the ones that were elevated to deamonhood, Vulkan seems to be the only other one almost impossible to kill.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Alfndrate wrote: Mah bad, I could have sworn that the eldar Lord in Void Stalker mentioned killing Curze to Soul Hunter just before the final encounter in the book.
Doesnt seem true, to only way Cruze died was because he believed it vindicated everything he believed. He wouldnt have died at some Eldar's hand willingly and I doubt it was in the Eldar's power to do so by force. Furthermore the assasin stole several legion artifacts, which they got back by killing her. Seems a bit too convenient if the Eldar killed Cruze and only seconds later the assasin came in to take the artifacts. Seems like trickery.
Warpig1815 wrote: Oh, I'm not disputing that aspect of the statement - I know that there was some dissension around splitting the Chapters - I think there was an incident where an IF ship was attacked by an Imperial Fleet ship, but Dorn relented to avoid another civil war. No, the part I was disputing was that Vulkan was actually there in person.
Just as a note, the first quote is kinda fethed up on two points:
A) Why would Guilliman not agree with splitting up the chapters - it was his idea!
B) Why would Ferrus Mannus back the Ultramarines - at this point in time I don't think he would be thinking straight. Probably because he was headless and very, very much dead...
I was going to mention that bit about Ferrus but it wasn't part of the conversation. It is odd as the Iron Hands Index Astartes also confirms his death pretty much.
Guilliman is not agreeing with Dorn because Dorn does not want to follow Guillimans idea of Chapters, Vulkan and Russ were with Dorn.
@Pilau Rice - Apologies for that. Now I re-read it, I can see that the quote is saying that Dorn and Guilliman are not relenting - but on different sides of the argument. My first impression was that they were unrelenting - but both agreeing not to split the chapters. It was worded a bit strangely, but maybe it was just me not slowing down to read it properly...
Book was lame, super disapointed. I dont really care that hes a perpetual, its not a great idea IMO but whatever. I just think the book was generally sub par, very predicable, lots of I dont know whats real or a dream nonsense. The teleporting bit at the end had me rolling my eyes big time, I know its unstable technology but really? Its no Battle for the Abyss or anything but there have been some really well writen, cant stop reading novels in this series, this was definitly not one of them.
Warpig1815 wrote: @Pilau Rice - Apologies for that. Now I re-read it, I can see that the quote is saying that Dorn and Guilliman are not relenting - but on different sides of the argument. My first impression was that they were unrelenting - but both agreeing not to split the chapters. It was worded a bit strangely, but maybe it was just me not slowing down to read it properly...
Spartak wrote: Book was lame, super disapointed. I dont really care that hes a perpetual, its not a great idea IMO but whatever. I just think the book was generally sub par, very predicable, lots of I dont know whats real or a dream nonsense. The teleporting bit at the end had me rolling my eyes big time, I know its unstable technology but really? Its no Battle for the Abyss or anything but there have been some really well writen, cant stop reading novels in this series, this was definitly not one of them.
So I'll probably enjoy the feth out of this book as most of the HH books people liked/loved I've greatly enjoyed, and those that people hated I've enjoyed.
I'm with you on that one Alfndrate. Personally, having read all of the rest of Mr. Kyme's work (and greatly looking forward to the Salamanders Omnibus and his next Trilogy), I can't fault it - he's done wonders regarding fleshing out the Salamanders fluff. Hence, I reckon his foray into the HH series with Vulkan Lives and Promethean Sun are bound to be just as good.
Warpig1815 wrote: I'm with you on that one Alfndrate. Personally, having read all of the rest of Mr. Kyme's work (and greatly looking forward to the Salamanders Omnibus and his next Trilogy), I can't fault it - he's done wonders regarding fleshing out the Salamanders fluff. Hence, I reckon his foray into the HH series with Vulkan Lives and Promethean Sun are bound to be just as good.
Now I remember why I didn't just grab this book when it came out, even though I am very interested in the Salamanders. Strike one for me is that it was written by Kyme; Strike two was the price.
I'll wait until it's released under more normal pricing and just ignore the author's name while hoping there isn't too much space marine whining. The first book in Tome of Fire (Salamander) was a bit OTT with it. Granted, by the third he managed to have them grow up a bit. So maybe this is better.
Warpig1815 wrote: I've never read it, (Lexicanum gives me the general gist of it) but I wouldn't put it past the Eldar to sow misdirection just as a boast while he kills Talos. However, seeing as Talos has spent his life hunting down M'Shen, it's proabably safe to say it was M'Shen who killed Curze.
He didn't spend his life chasing Martin Sheen, he caught her and rendered her into little pieces.
Reading the title of the thread, first thing that popped into my head was Blazing Saddles.
Anyway.
I liked the book overall, but I was kind of disappointed in the perspective shifts. It kind of seemed slapped together and it wasn't very smooth. Though I imagine it wasn't easy to do both time shifting perspectives as well as "is this really happening?" perspective, which I don't think Kyme has ever done in his writing.
Another disappointment with the book is it didn't really move the Heresy story further really, just added more questions. It seems that with the HH series you have a bunch of one off or question adding books, then all of a sudden you get a book that jump starts the series into moving the overall story and then back to fluff and side stories. So that disappointment isn't so much with the book itself but having to wait for the next book that kick starts the storyline again.
).
